Showing posts with label Sleep. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Sleep. Show all posts

Soh Wei Yu: Malcolm rejects notion of unchanging awareness or turiya in sleep, says sleep is both unconscious and unaware:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=671528#p671528

 

Malcolm:

" No, when you are unconscious, for example in deep sleep, you are also unaware. "


" You are just unconscious:

https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/d ... deep-clean

When one is awake and aware, one's brain is very active."

" Yawn. Boring. Turiya is just an Advaita:imputation, "


Someone asked: " Are you denying the experience of those who claim to have a continuous sense of a 'knower' into deep sleep?"

Malcolm:

"Yes. Categorically. If they are aware when they are asleep, it isn't deep sleep. Not only that, people can claim anything. But how can one test the claim, "I am continuously aware in a state of deep sleep"? "


" I would argue it is not the case that experience and awareness are phenomenologically distinct. If we are color-blind for example, we cannot experience certain colors. so we are not aware of them. Same goes for certain kinds of deafness.

In deep sleep, our brains switch to delta waves. In this state we are not aware of the outside world nor do we "experience" it. If we are woken from deep sleep, we are generally startled awake. Experience is only conscious, never unconscious."



John Tan: 👍

 

    Regarding maintaining awareness into sleep, John Tan said today, "This one will affect health a lot and cause intense energy imbalance if did not practice properly. Not suitable for lay person that has work imo. You also need to have exercises to keep your qi circulating."

    4 Comments


  • Ben Miles
    That is interesting. Did John mention his reasons for saying this? I know a couple of people that do regular lucid dream yoga / maintaining awareness into sleep and have only reported positive benefits.


    Soh Wei Yu
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    Ben Miles From personal experience. There is a sub chapter on "possible sleep disruptions" in the first stage chapter in the AtR guide: https://app.box.com/s/157eqgiosuw6xqvs00ibdkmc0r3mu8jg
    APP.BOX.COM
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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    John Tan suffered insomnia and energy imbalances for a decade. Only anatta solved his problem


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Also, afaik Dzogchen teacher Malcolm didnt teach like that. I'm not sure about other teachers.
    [29/5/22, 11:16:28 PM] John Tan: What Malcolm meant is not this [remaining conscious in sleep], what he meant is before sleep remain in that state of anatta and visualize the letter A and then sleep and deep sleep till u wake up. If dreams of clarity arises, practice naturally. Not remain like 似睡非睡。
    [29/5/22, 11:16:38 PM] Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    [29/5/22, 11:17:22 PM] John Tan: only when elements are imbalance u dream.
    [29/5/22, 11:17:48 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ic..
    [29/5/22, 11:20:31 PM] John Tan: Unless u r already mature this then the practice can turn naturally into 3 states but it will be like what Malcolm meant and should not be practiced like what ur grand master said, 似睡非睡. Try not to practice that way, maybe monk like ur grand master can.


  • Aaron M Beck
    Highly relate; this was particularly bad for a few years where never really felt like drifted off into deep sleep, felt like awareness penetrated everything. dreams were also made of thought more than substantial image. not as bad as once was, but awareness still penetrates sleep consistently. I am conscious of waking up at least a dozen times every night. energy practices seem to be a consistent pointer for where 'I am'; going to go back and look into those again


    Yin Ling
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    Aaron M Beck do u feel tired in the day ?


    Aaron M Beck
    Yin Ling yes, especially with a dip in the middle of the day. i've never had a ton of energy, it's always felt like i'm exuding it everywhere


  • Yin Ling
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    Aaron M Beck thanks. I see. from my xp, I sleep deeply at night but I only need about 6 hours and have plenty of energy through the day - I wake up without an alarm, no snooze, can do one weight lifting session and sometimes a walk in the morning and never needed any nap. It is awesome.
    I wonder why do ppl want to maintain awareness at night if it makes them less efficient in the day? 😬 just curious


  • Aaron M Beck
    Yin Ling To be completely honest I feel I Am being lived; I don't entirely feel in control of what decisions are made. I'm unsure if this is conceptually 'learning of No-Self too soon' or an 'unhealthy solar plexus chakra' but the mind might think of a way to do something more efficiently and then the body does whatever the body does anyway. There is a sense of disconnect; I will not claim enlightenment when actions clearly show lingering attachments of suffering, and I think there might be aspects of unskillful practice that could be corrected.


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    More like they cant help it
    I wake up too during I AM phase and witnessing penetrates sleep but it wasnt very bad yet
    Lucky didnt stay stuck in I Am for too long else wld have gotten worse

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  • Yin Ling
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    Soh Wei Yu sounds rough!


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Still ok
    John tan one was rough







  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Aaron M Beck You are in I AM phase? Have you experienced nondual?


    Aaron M Beck
    Soh Wei Yu yeah I would say that's pretty accurate -- I am clearly in I Am and I have had nondual experience but not realization


  • Aaron M Beck
    Everything in life feels like one constant conversation with Self


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    I see.. i trust if you have been following atr you will know how to progress into nondual and anatta, namely the four aspects of i am, two stanzas of anatta and two nondual contemplation
    Sleepless Will only truly resolve at anatta
    My mahayana dharma teacher had that issue in the past as well, besides john tan and many others i know, those at the I Am phase. Im glad she broke through to anatta, i believe fairly recently

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  • Aaron M Beck
    Soh Wei Yu I've had an intuition that this is like a bubble that will only burst when the bubble bursts -- this tracks, thank you for the pointer. Where I would like to ask now is regarding energy practices -- namely my nervous system feels more sensitive than ever. I need a blanket or a long-sleeve shirt or it feels like energy is dissolving off of me and I feel cold constantly; last summer I wore a coat when it was 80 degrees out so I was cold until the body got too hot and started sweating, which made me cold again. It feels like I am somewhere where energy practices actually really matter now, like there is more danger here than there used to be. I feel like I might expand into nothingness and drift away. There is a *very* strong message that I am 'navigating the subtle body'. Is this just more stories of the ego?


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Need to take steps to actively challenge and see through the seer-seeing-seen structure.
    Don't practice awareness at night. In the day, bring your luminosity to the foreground (five senses)rather than stay fixated in formless background -- see https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../four-aspects...
    At the same time, contemplate the two stanzas of anatta and bahiya sutta:
    On subject-action-object structure, do read
    Four Aspects of I AM
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Four Aspects of I AM
    Four Aspects of I AM

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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    If you actively challenge and investigate along these lines, you will break through to anatta within one year. I took less than one year and many others too.


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    I cannot advise on energy practices, other than to suggest that this Vase Breathing practice can help in energy imbalance: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../frank-yang-video... -- also see energy imbalance chapter in AtR guide.
    However it must be stressed:
    If you have energy imbalance, see a Tibetan and Chinese doctor, they can describe medicines to help. Even John Tan visits TCM (traditional chinese medicine) for meds to help.
    If you have very bad symptoms that need immediate relief, go for Western docs (these treat or suppresses immediate symptoms but not the underlying causes/energy imbalances).
    Frank Yang Video: FULL ENLIGHTENMENT HAPPENING LIVE (1st Time In Human History)
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Frank Yang Video: FULL ENLIGHTENMENT HAPPENING LIVE (1st Time In Human History)
    Frank Yang Video: FULL ENLIGHTENMENT HAPPENING LIVE (1st Time In Human History)

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  • Yin Ling
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    It will be interesting for sleep research to see how is the brain waves like during such awareness sleep.
    Bc classically if one cannot enter deep sleep and Keeps waking up , like what occurs in sleep apnea , the impact of such disturbed sleep is huge on health.
    Risk of Hypertension and diabetes increase a lot which can impact cardiovascular health. Mental health take a hit too. Let alone recovery.


    Soh Wei Yu
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    May be an image of text


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Tragic to mistaken a possibly health and life endangering condition and energy imbalance for spiritual achievement


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