I have mentioned in the AtR group that recently, a number of people have made breakthroughs. Here is one of them, Michael:
MichaelAwakening
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[–]to Michael sent 1
month ago
Hi
Thought this might
interest you, on nondual awareness and its nature and the subtleties of
insight:
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/mistaken-reality-of-amness.html
[–]from Michael sent 1
month ago
Thank you, I’ll take a look :)
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[–]to Michael sent 1
month ago
You’re welcome :) p.s I’m Soh, and Thusness is my
mentor… I’ve been through similar stages in my journey. Both of us are co
authors of the blog
[–]from Michael sent 1
month ago
Great! Nice to meet you :)
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[–]to Michael sent 1
month ago
Nice to meet you too :)
[–]from Michael sent 1
month ago
There’s a lot on this website! It definitely seems
relevant to my question about true self/no self. I’ll spend the next through
days going through the content :)
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[–]from Michael sent 1
month ago
Next few days *
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[–]to Michael sent 1
month ago
Glad it is of interest :)
[–]to Michael sent 1
month ago
We have an online community too in case you want to
drop by. We have dozens of people at least that have gone through the same
phases of insights experientially
https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality
[–]from Michael sent 1
month ago
Thank you, I've sent a request to join (my name's
Michael). This stuff resonates with me.
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[–]to Michael sent 1
month ago
Great, added you
[–]from Michael sent 1
month ago
Thanks for that! Do you know anyone who acts as a
guide or teacher? I'm reading the AtR Abridged guide but it's hard to know what
stage I'm at because I've come from a Vedantic background where the terminology
and soteriology is somewhat different. The description of Stage 4 and One-Mind
in particular (only Brahaman) seems most accurate to my experience, but I may
be fooling myself.
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[–]to Michael sent 1
month ago
You can read this article first to understand the
AtR terminology and then let me know what your experience and insights are like
now
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/10/differentiating-i-am-one-mind-no-mind.html
[–]to Michael sent 1
month ago
Also you might be interested to read this too,
bahiya sutta was what got me to my breakthrough of anatta
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2011/10/a-zen-exploration-of-bahiya-sutta.html
…
My article: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2010/10/my-commentary-on-bahiya-sutta.html
[–]from Michael sent 1
month ago
Very helpful, thank you. I have realised “I Am”,
One Mind (only subject, with forms as modulations of subjectivity), and have
had “glimpses” of No Mind. I think I’ve also realised luminosity—appearances
don’t seem to have a substance beyond or behind the appearance. It’s clear that
when seeing an apple there’s no “real apple”, only the seeing. However it does
still feel like there’s a seer, a subject, which is Awareness or I Am. These
paragraphs align closely with my current experience:
“In this text, Ven.
Dasaka meets the Arhant Khemaka and tells him that "there is nothing I
assume to be self or belonging to self, and yet I am not an arahant. With
regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome,
although I don't assume that 'I am this." (...) ""Friends, it's
not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am something other than form.' It's
not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,'
nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.' With regard to these
five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume
that 'I am this.'" The Arhat answers saying "friends, even though a
noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard
to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am'
desire, an 'I am' obsession."”
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[–]to Michael sent 1
month ago
I see, i have gone through those phases as well.
Contemplating
bahiya sutta and challenging the sense that a seer or seeing exists besides
seen until its seen through will help. In truth there is no seer or seeing
besides seen or hearer and hearing besides sound, just like there is no
lightning besides flash. Lightning is not an agent of flash but just another
name for the flashing, or the flash. No nouns or agents are needed or exists to
set verbs into action, just verbing.
There is only sound
Geovani Geo wrote:
We hear a sound.
The immediate deeply inbuilt conditioning says, "hearing ". But there
is a fallacy there. There is only sound. Ultimately, no hearer and no hearing.
The same with all other senses. A centralized, or expanded, or zero-dimensional
inherent perceiver or aware-er is an illusion.
Thusness/John Tan:
Very good.
Means both stanza
is clear. In hearing, no hearer. In hearing, only sound. No hearing.
…..
Also
I wrote this
recently:
I like your answer.
Also, I would like to add, awareness is none other than the ongoing activity.
It is not the case that awareness is an unchanging substance modulating as
everything. 'Awareness' is just like a word like 'weather', a mere name
denoting the ongoing dynamic activities of raining wetting sun shining wind
blowing lightning strike and so on and on. 'Awareness' has no intrinsic
existence of its own than moment to moment manifestation, even if at that
moment it is just a mere sense of formless Existence, that too is another
'foreground' non-dual manifestation and not an unchanging background.
Just like there is
no lightning besides flash (lightning is flashing -- lightning is just another
name for flash and is not the agent behind flash), no wind besides blowing, no
water besides flowing, no nouns or agents are needed to initiate verbs. There
never was an agent, a seer, or even a seeing, besides colors, never an agent, a
hearer, or even a hearing, besides sound. Anatta.
Some excerpts from
the 2nd most famous Buddhist masters (right after the Dalai Lama) of our time,
the Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh :
Excerpts from http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2008/10/sun-of-awareness-and-river-of.html some
other quotations which Thusness/PasserBy liked from the book --"When we
say I know the wind is blowing, we don't think that there is something blowing
something else. "Wind' goes with 'blowing'. If there is no blowing, there
is no wind. It is the same with knowing. Mind is the knower; the knower is
mind. We are talking about knowing in relation to the wind. 'To know' is to
know something. Knowing is inseparable from the wind. Wind and knowing are one.
We can say, 'Wind,' and that is enough. The presence of wind indicates the
presence of knowing, and the presence of the action of
blowing'.""..The most universal verb is the verb 'to be'': I am, you
are, the mountain is, a river is. The verb 'to be' does not express the dynamic
living state of the universe. To express that we must say 'become.' These two
verbs can also be used as nouns: 'being", "becoming". But being
what? Becoming what? 'Becoming' means 'evolving ceaselessly', and is as
universal as the verb "to be." It is not possible to express the
"being" of a phenomenon and its "becoming" as if the two
were independent. In the case of wind, blowing is the being and the
becoming....""In any phenomena, whether psychological, physiological,
or physical, there is dynamic movement, life. We can say that this movement,
this life, is the universal manifestation, the most commonly recognized action
of knowing. We must not regard 'knowing' as something from the outside which
comes to breathe life into the universe. It is the life of the universe itself.
The dance and the dancer are one."
Comments by
Thusness/PasserBy: "...as a verb, as action, there can be no concept, only
experience. Non-dual anatta (no-self) is the experience of subject/Object as
verb, as action. There is no mind, only mental activities... ...Source as the
passing phenomena... and how non-dual appearance is understood from Dependent
Origination perspective." ............. Zen Master Thich Nhat
Hanh:"When we say it's raining, we mean that raining is taking place. You
don't need someone up above to perform the raining. It's not that there is the
rain, and there is the one who causes the rain to fall. In fact, when you say
the rain is falling, it's very funny, because if it weren't falling, it
wouldn't be rain. In our way of speaking, we're used to having a subject and a
verb. That's why we need the word "it" when we say, "it
rains." "It" is the subject, the one who makes the rain
possible. But, looking deeply, we don't need a "rainer," we just need
the rain. Raining and the rain are the same. The formations of birds and the birds
are the same -- there's no "self," no boss involved. There's a mental
formation called vitarka, "initial thought."
When we use the
verb "to think" in English, we need a subject of the verb: I think,
you think, he thinks. But, really, you don't need a subject for a thought to be
produced. Thinking without a thinker -- it's absolutely possible. To think is
to think about something. To perceive is to perceive something. The perceiver
and the perceived object that is perceived are one.When Descartes said, "I
think, therefore I am," his point was that if I think, there must be an
"I" for thinking to be possible. When he made the declaration "I
think," he believed that he could demonstrate that the "I"
exists. We have the strong habit or believing in a self. But, observing very
deeply, we can see that a thought does not need a thinker to be possible. There
is no thinker behind the thinking -- there is just the thinking; that's enough.
Now, if Mr. Descartes were here, we might ask him, "Monsieur Descartes,
you say, 'You think, therefore you are.' But what are you? You are your
thinking. Thinking -- that's enough. Thinking manifests without the need of a
self behind it."Thinking without a thinker. Feeling without a feeler. What
is our anger without our 'self'? This is the object of our meditation. All the
fifty-one mental formations take place and manifest without a self behind them
arranging for this to appear, and then for that to appear. Our mind
consciousness is in the habit of basing itself on the idea of self, on manas.
But we can meditate
to be more aware of our store consciousness, where we keep the seeds of all
those mental formations that are not currently manifesting in our mind. When we
meditate, we practice looking deeply in order to bring light and clarity into
our way of seeing things. When the vision of no-self is obtained, our delusion
is removed. This is what we call transformation. In the Buddhist tradition,
transformation is possible with deep understanding. The moment the vision of
no-self is there, manas, the elusive notion of 'I am,' disintegrates, and we
find ourselves enjoying, in this very moment, freedom and happiness."
I think the above
is impt for you, it is not just nondual of subject object but sees through
inherent existence of self/Self/Awareness
along with the two
stanzas of anatta
Two stanzas: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html
On verbs, also related: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/just-manifestation-or-just-mind.html
[–]from Michael sent 1
month ago
I’ll contemplate these deeply, thank you :)
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[–]to Michael sent 1
month ago
The modulating view is also seen through post
anatta and this article expressed well http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/11/beyond-awareness.html
[–]to Michael sent 1
month ago
👍
[–]to Michael sent 1
month ago
You’re welcome to join our online group too if you
wish
https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality
[–]to Michael sent 1
month ago
btw feel free to join our group too if you
like https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/
[–]from Michael sent 1
month ago
Thanks, I’ve already joined, I’m Michael :)
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[–]from Michael sent 1
month ago
Thanks, I’ve already joined, I’m Michael :)
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[–]to Michael sent 1
month ago
👍🙏
[–]from Michael sent 11
days ago
Hi Soh/Xabir, I've been contemplating as advised
above. Awareness/background subject has been seen as just another
thought/mental image, not a real subject/perceiver. There never was a subject
of experience, only a transient subtle mental image which was 'pretending' to
be a background awareness. The thought/mental image of apparent background
subject continues to arise frequently, however. Does it stop arising at some
point?
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[–]to Michael sent 11
days ago
That’s great.
All traces of
background do stop at some point when insight of anatta as a seal is deep and
clear.
How do you
experience Presence now?
An excerpt from http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/mistaken-reality-of-amness.html
The Absolute as
separated from the transience is what I have indicated as the 'Background' in
my 2 posts to theprisonergreco.
84. RE: Is there an absolute reality? [Skarda 4 of
4]
Mar 27 2009, 9:15 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 27
2009, 9:15 AM EDT
Hi theprisonergreco,
First is what exactly is the ‘background’? Actually
it doesn’t exist. It is only an image of a ‘non-dual’ experience that is
already gone. The dualistic mind fabricates a ‘background’ due to the poverty
of its dualistic and inherent thinking mechanism. It ‘cannot’ understand or
function without something to hold on to. That experience of the ‘I’ is a
complete, non-dual foreground experience.
When the background subject is understood as an
illusion, all transience phenomena reveal themselves as Presence. It is like
naturally 'vipassanic' throughout. From the hissing sound of PC, to the
vibration of the moving MRT train, to the sensation when the feet touches the
ground, all these experiences are crystal clear, no less “I AM” than “I AM”.
The Presence is still fully present, nothing is denied. -:) So the “I AM” is
just like any other experiences when the subject-object split is gone. No
different from an arising sound. It only becomes a static background as an
after thought when our dualistic and inherent tendencies are in action.
The first 'I-ness' stage of experiencing awareness
face to face is like a point on a sphere which you called it the center. You
marked it.
Then later you realized that when you marked other
points on the surface of a sphere, they have the same characteristics. This is
the initial experience of non-dual. Once the insight of No-Self is stabilized,
you just freely point to any point on the surface of the sphere -- all points
are a center, hence there is no 'the' center. 'The' center does not exist: all
points are a center.
After then practice move from 'concentrative' to
'effortlessness'. That said, after this initial non-dual insight, 'background'
will still surface occasionally for another few years due to latent tendencies...
86. RE: Is there an absolute reality? [Skarda 4 of
4]
Mar 27 2009, 11:59 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 27
2009, 11:59 AM EDT
To be more exact, the so called 'background'
consciousness is that pristine happening. There is no a 'background' and a
'pristine happening'. During the initial phase of non-dual, there is still
habitual attempt to 'fix' this imaginary split that does not exist. It matures
when we realized that anatta is a seal, not a stage; in hearing, always only
sounds; in seeing always only colors, shapes and forms; in thinking, always
only thoughts. Always and already so. -:)
Many non-dualists
after the intuitive insight of the Absolute hold tightly to the Absolute. This
is like attaching to a point on the surface of a sphere and calling it 'the one
and only center'. Even for those Advaitins that have clear experiential insight
of no-self (no object-subject split), an experience similar to that of anatta
(First emptying of subject) are not spared from these tendencies. They continue
to sink back to a Source.
It is natural to
reference back to the Source when we have not sufficiently dissolved the latent
disposition but it must be correctly understood for what it is. Is this
necessary and how could we rest in the Source when we cannot even locate its
whereabout? Where is that resting place? Why sink back? Isn't that another illusion
of the mind? The 'Background' is just a thought moment to recall or an attempt
to reconfirm the Source. How is this necessary? Can we even be a thought moment
apart? The tendency to grasp, to solidify experience into a 'center' is a
habitual tendency of the mind at work. It is just a karmic tendency. Realize
It! This is what I meant to Adam the difference between One-Mind and No-Mind.
·
John Tan, 2009
·
Emptiness as Viewless View and
Embracing the Transience http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/04/emptiness-as-viewless-view.html
[–]to Michael sent 11
days ago
This para: “ To be more exact, the so called
'background' consciousness is that pristine happening. There is no a
'background' and a 'pristine happening'. During the initial phase of non-dual,
there is still habitual attempt to 'fix' this imaginary split that does not
exist. It matures when we realized that anatta is a seal, not a stage; in
hearing, always only sounds; in seeing always only colors, shapes and forms; in
thinking, always only thoughts. Always and already so. -:)”
[–]to Michael sent 11
days ago
You should continue to practice vipassana and
luminosity as form while keeping the two stanzas of anatta in mind until it is
very clearly realised as a seal, always already so
On vipassana, see https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/thusnesss-vipassana.html and https://vimeo.com/250616410
Excerpt (do read
whole link too):
“It is extremely
difficult to express what is ‘Isness’. Isness is awareness as forms. It is a
pure sense of presence yet encompassing the ‘transparent concreteness’ of
forms. There is a crystal clear sensations of awareness manifesting as the
manifold of phenomenal existence. If we are vague in the experiencing of this
‘transparent concreteness’ of Isness, it is always due to that ‘sense of self’
creating the sense of division… ...you must stress the ‘form’ part of awareness.
It is the ‘forms’, it is the ‘things’.” - John Tan, 2007
....
Someone asked,
"A quick question about Thusness Vipassanaa.
It's about clarity
right?
Like when I focus
on sound, I can see that mind sort of created a visual to describe sound and
"color" it, but even without the mind there is clear knowing. The
sound without mind's coloring is borderless."
Soh replied:
You must experience
the intensity of luminosity:
“Good insight.
Stability of experience has a predictable relationship with the unfolding and
deepening of insights. For example how seamless and effortless can non-dual
experience be, if in the back of one's mind, subtle views of duality and
inherency and tendencies continue to surface and affect our moment to moment
experience - for example conjuring an unchanging source or mind that results in
a perpetual tendency to sink back and referencing experience back to a source.
For example even
after it is seen that everything is a manifestation of awareness or mind, there
might still be subtle tendencies to reference back to a source, awareness or
mind and therefore the transience is not appreciated in full. Nondual is
experienced but one sinks back into substantial nonduality - there is always a
referencing back to a base, an "awareness" that is nevertheless
inseparable from all phenomena.
If one arises the
insight that our ideas of an unchanging source, awareness or mind is just
another thought - that there is simply thought after thought, sight after
sight, sound after sound, and there isn't an inherent or unchanging
"awareness", "mind", "source". Non-dual becomes
implicit and effortless when there is the realisation that what awareness,
seeing, hearing really is, is just the seen... The heard... The transience...
The transience itself rolls and knows, no knower or other "awareness"
can be found. Like there is no river apart from flowing, no wind apart from
blowing, each noun implies its verb... Similarly awareness is simply the
process of knowing not separated from the known. Scenery sees, music hears.
Because there is nothing unchanging, independent, ultimate apart from the
transience, there is no more sinking back to a source and instead there is full
comfort resting as the transience itself.
Lastly do continue
practicing the intensity of luminosity... When looking at tennis ball just
sense the tennis ball fully.... Without thinking of a source, background,
observer, self. Just the tennis ball as a luminous light. When breathing...
Just the breathe... When seeing scenery, just sights, shapes and colours -
intensely luminous and vivid without an agent or observer. When hearing
music... Sound of bird chirping, the crickets… Just that - chirp chirp. A zen
master noted upon his awakening... When I am hearing the bell ringing, there is
no I and no bell... Just the ringing. The direct experiencing of no-mind and
intensity of luminosity.. This is the purpose of the practice of the four
foundations of mindfulness that is taught by the Buddha.” - Soh, 2011
[–]to Michael sent 11
days ago
When you luminosity as form is intense and strong
with clear insight of anatta like how i described below years ago, be careful
not to overfocus or overexert but rather progress into the insight of dependent
origination or emptiness. Otherwise one might get energy imbalances. On the
vivid luminosity as forms:
"Strong and
vivid radiance..
Even now the smell
of food is standing out in intensity
...[sights have a]
HD hypervivid quality...
...Actually more
accurate description is magical and marvellous colors (as in the vivid
'textures' of what's called trees, sky, houses, people, streets, etc), sounds
(as in the vivid 'textures' of a bird chirping, sound of traffic, etc), scents
(as in the aromas of food, and plants, etc), etc. Complete perfection with a
stark intensity...
Yet feels
completely natural. Without slightest sense of distance or self/Self, even the
tiniest details becomes starkly clear
This sense of
perfection and magical radiance of everything is still there even when I'm
physically tired and lack sleep on the previous night
By magical what I
mean is a sense that there’s something very magnificent, almost like beauty but
it is not beauty vs ugly and is not at all a subjectively imposed or affective
feeling of beauty, but a sense of perfection.. like I look at the fly crawling
on my skin, the fly is so completely perfect, like part of the paradise (note:
this is different from Thusness's usage of the term 'magical')
Like a ball of
radiance, except radiance as none other than the boundless world of forms,
colors, textures and sounds, that is the very radiance, for it is the world
that is the radiance and nothing else. Not a subjective radiance standing apart
from forms.
There is nothing
subjectively imposed here.. when I say “sense of perfection” that is already
not quite accurate as it conveys some subjectively imposed interpretation of
perfection.. rather it is the world that is the perfection and each moment
carries the flavor of perfection
Perfection being
merely a qualitative description of the pristine state of consciousness/radiant
forms, not an affective feeling of "it is perfect" but neither is it
an objective characteristic of some inherently existing object (there is
neither subject nor object as subject and object is conceptual)
But this state of
consciousness is not just heightened clarity... it’s like even the trees
swaying is marvelously and magically alive and life reveals its significance
and meaning all around. I think this is what Richard calls “meaning of life”.
The emotional model
of AF makes some sense"
...
Driving around
Singapore, it feels like I am experiencing Singapore for the first time.
…..
…But the best thing
in terms of affect so far is that the constant apperception is such a joyful,
clean, pristine state of appreciating the boundless and radiant world that
there isn't room for unpleasant emotions like sadness, boredom, depression,
etc. There is certainly no more "Monday blues" or any kind of
"blues" at all. It make sense now in my experience when Richard says
his days are one perfect day after another. Even lying on bed, looking at the
ceiling, the sound of the humming and background noises is joyful. Any added
entertainment on top of that perfection is just another addition on top of
perfection."
...
This state of
apperception is effortlessly and naturally present from the very moment I wake
up to the moment I sleep, for example when I wake up sometimes a sound is heard
and I do not even know where I am (the body is lying on the bed but the mind
hasn't cognized that on the very first moment of waking up) in contrast to the
bird chirping or the fan humming as there is simply no 'I' to be located
anywhere, there is only everything everywhere... it is almost as if I am at the
sound of the bird chirping except there is no 'I' to 'be at' or 'be one with'
the sound, there is only sound. The reflection of the orange rising sun over
the window in the next building shines as vivid radiance with flawless
perfection... the radiant energies courses through the body, energising and
vitalising my day. All these informs me that it's going to be yet another
perfect day in paradise even before I open my eyes. When driving, when walking,
overlooking the long stretch of road over the horizon, there is no center, no
reference-point, no center-of-reference, and no circumference... the whole
universe is walking, is the walking, is the driving, where the movement of legs
is not done or perceived by an 'I' (there is no doer, thinker, feeler, watcher,
cognizer, being/Being whatsoever, only action) and this body is walking
inseparably from the entire universe, it is not the case that there is a body
here and a separate universe out there in which the body moves through.
·
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/03/the-magical-fairytale-like-wonderland.html
[–]from Michael sent 11
days ago
Thanks Soh.
A tennis ball is lit up like the sun, as if from
within. But the light isn't coming from within - the light is the appearance,
and the appearance is the light. They're not two different things. This
transience appears like the stained glass
windows in a church, and it's always been like that.
When the
thought/mental image of awareness is mistaken for an actual background
awareness, the luminosity seems to get shrouded, and transience seems to split
into self/other.
I'll continue
practicing Vipassana/luminosity with Bahiya/anatta stanzas in mind.
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[–]to Michael sent 11
days ago
Also, not sure if you relate to this:
4
Joel Agee I will
try to describe what it is that rings true for me in Thusness’s words. I don’t
have a theoretical preference for the early Buddhist teachings over the later
ones, including Dzogchen. In fact I know very little about the Pali Canon. My
approach isn’t conceptual or theoretical at all. I look directly into the
nature of my own consciousness in silent, objectless sitting meditation –
shikantaza if you will. Whatever doesn’t meet the test of direct experience
holds no lasting interest for me.
Until fairly
recently, the metaphor of the mirror and its reflections seemed a fitting image
of my contemplative experience: that there is an unchanging, ever-present,
imperturbable awareness that is the absolute ground and the very substance of
phenomena, and that while this motionless, contentless awareness-presence is
inseparable from the ceaseless coming and going of appearances, it also
transcends everything that shows up, remaining untouched, unstained, absolute and
indestructible.
A couple of years
ago I discovered Soh’s blog, Awakening to Reality, and in it Soh’s account of
his exploration of the Bahiya Sutta and the Zen Priest Alex Weith’s report on
his realization of Anatta through practical application of the Bahiya Sutta. I
saw then that Anatta was not fully realized in my experience. The illusory
nature of a separate unchanging personal self had been seen through, but an
unconscious identification with “Awareness” or “rigpa” had taken its place.
Since then, an
unstoppable deconstruction of that impersonal background identity has been
happening in my contemplation and in my daily life. There is still a noticeable
attachment to the memory of that subtle Home Base. It shows up as a tendency to
"lean back" from the unpredictable brilliance and dynamism of the
moment into a static, subtly blissful background presence. But there is no
longer a belief in an Awareness that is anything other than, or greater than,
or deeper than, THIS sound, THIS smile or stirring of emotion, THIS glance of
light. There is no Mirror that is not the reflections.
So the shift in my
experience and practice is not a preference for one teaching over another. It’s
an ongoing realization that direct contact with the grain and texture of
moment-by-moment experience is what Dogen meant by “being awakened by the ten
thousand things.” January 2 at 3:20am · Unlike · 6
Joel Agee Jackson,
it's true that seeking ends with the recognition of rigpa. There is nowhere
further to go, and there's no deeper truth to ferret out. I agree it is an
immediate insight, not a gradual acquisition of understanding. And yes, it
involves no self-belief. But what doesn't necessarily end and often passes
unnoticed is the unconscious habit of locating oneself in a kind of pseudo-rigpa
that subtly separates "awareness" from "phenomena." That
persists, or maybe more accurately, it recurs when the crystal clarity of rigpa
is intermittent, not stable. That was my experience, and I have observed this
tendency in others. That is why I have found the instructions of the Bahiya
Sutta helpful. January 2 at 6:29am · Like · 2
·
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2013/09/joel-agee-appearances-are-self_1.html
[–]to Michael sent 11
days ago
Good description about the luminosity :)
Btw is it ok if i
share what you wrote on the atr blog? I wont put your name if you wish for
anonymity
[–]to Michael sent 11
days ago
Btw which city do you stay in?
[–]to Michael sent 11
days ago
Are you Michael?
[–]from Michael sent 11
days ago
Yes you're welcome to share the description, but
perhaps only with my first name :) I'm Michael from New Zealand.
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[–]to Michael sent 11
days ago
Thanks :) which part of new zealand?
[–]from Michael sent 11
days ago
Palmerston North :) Whereabouts do you live?
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[–]to Michael sent 10
days ago
Im from singapore
[–]to Michael sent 10
days ago
I highly recommend you check out this place. I have
read john daido loori teachings, he has clear insights into anatta and total
exertion
Mountains and
Rivers Order Sitting Group
Address: Palmerston North Manawatu-Wanganui
Tradition: Mahayana, Mountains and Rivers Order founded by John Daido Loori
Affiliation: Zen in the tradition of John Daido Loori Phone: (06) 356 8811
E-mail: Peter.Jolly@vets Website: http://www.squidoo.com/zen-in-new-zealand Find
on: Dr: Peter Jolly, MRO Email (Phone: (06) 356 8811 ) Spiritual Director:
Jeffrey Shugen Arnold Sensei Email (Phone: +001 845-688-2228) Notes and Events:
The Zen Institute
of New Zealand (ZENZ) is a national, non-residential Zen Buddhist training organization
of the Mountains and Rivers Order (MRO) that provides training and guidance to
those interested in practicing Zen Buddhism. Members meet regularly for zazen,
intensive retreats (sesshin), and other activities throughout the country.
Sitting groups are located in Auckland, Christchurch, Nelson, Wellington, and
Manawatu.
The MRO was founder
by one of the most influential American Zen Masters, John Daido Loori
(1931-2009), and is an organization of associated temples, practice centers and
sitting groups in the United States and abroad. The MRO was founded by Daido
Roshi in 1980, and is inspired by the teachings of Zen Master Dogen as
presented in his "Mountains and Rivers Sutra."
For more information, see http://mro.org/smr/newzealand/
For information about local groups in New Zealand
and the group in Palmerston North, Manawatu, see http://mro.org/smr/newzealand/about/sitting-groups/
[–]to Michael sent 10
days ago
John tan and i are both from singapore :)
[–]to Michael sent 10
days ago
New zealand is a wonderful place, wish to visit
again some time
[–]to Michael sent 10
days ago
When you go to the zen center, when you have a
chance maybe you can discuss your insights and experiences with them too
[–]to Michael sent 10
days ago
Also these pointers may help:
“[10:16 AM,
6/29/2020] John Tan: Frank is very experiential, no need to be too theoretical
into emptiness, non-arisen of phenomena for now.
Rather it is to
allow him to move the energy and radiance to his body...entire body...although
the background is gone, you may think that all six senses are in equal radiance
but it is far from truth in real time and causes all the energy imbalances.
Relax into the
natural state and feel the energetic radiance over the entire body. Not by way
of thinking. Touch anything, touch the toes, they legs, feel them. It is your
mind...lol...can you understand that? [10:23 AM, 6/29/2020] John Tan: The
mountain is mind, the grasses are mind, everything is mind. That is through the
vision and mental, feel the body, toes fingers, touch them. They are mind. So
do you understand that in real time? As for sleep don't worry too much, it will
happen and use less thoughts, let whole body be a sense of touch not by
thinking, but feel and touch it. So don't think that when insight of all is
mind anatta arise, means you are already into all is mind. If you can't embrace
and feel all as mind, how are you to eliminate the common denominator called
mind and into no mind which is the natural state of anatta.”
·
quote from AtR guide
....
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/11/the-doctrine-of-no-mind-by-bodhidharma.html
At this, the
disciple all at once greatly awakened and realized for the first time that
there is no thing apart from mind, and no mind apart from things. All of his
actions became utterly free. Having broken through the net of all doubt, he was
freed of all obstruction.
also: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/04/way-of-bodhi.html
Though purifying
mind is the essence of practicing the Way, it is not done by clinging at the
mind as a glorified and absolute entity. It is not that one simply goes inward
by rejecting the external world. It is not that the mind is pure and the world
is impure. When mind is clear, the world is a pure-field. When mind is deluded,
the world is Samsara. Bodhidharma said, Seeing with insight, form is not simply
form, because form depends on mind. And, mind is not simply mind, because mind
depends on form. Mind and form create and negate each other. … Mind and the
world are opposites, appearances arise where they meet. When your mind does not
stir inside, the world does not arise outside. When the world and the mind are
both transparent, this is the true insight.” (from the Wakeup Discourse)
Just like the
masters of Madhyamaka, Bodhidharma too pointed out that mind and form are
interdependently arising. Mind and form create each other. Yet, when you cling
to form, you negate mind. And, when you cling to mind, you negate form. Only
when such dualistic notions are dissolved, and only when both mind and the
world are transparent (not turning to obstructing concepts) the true insight
arises.
In this regard,
Bodhidharma said, Using the mind to look for reality is delusion. Not using the
mind to look for reality is awareness. (from the Wakeup Discourse)
So, to effectively
enter the Way, one has to go beyond the dualities (conceptual constructs) of
mind and form. As far as one looks for reality as an object of mind, one is
still trapped in the net of delusion (of seeing mind and form as independent
realities), never breaking free from it. In that way, one holds reality as
something other than oneself, and even worse, one holds oneself as a spectator
to a separate reality!
When the mind does
not stir anymore and settles into its pristine clarity, the world does not stir
outside. The reality is revealed beyond the divisions of Self and others, and
mind and form. Thus, as you learn not to use the mind to look for reality and
simply rests in the natural state of mind as it is, there is the dawn of
pristine awareness – knowing reality as it is, non-dually and non-conceptually.
When the mind does
not dissolve in this way to its original clarity, whatever one sees is merely
the stirring of conceptuality. Even if we try to construct a Buddha’s mind, it
only stirs and does not see reality. Because, the Buddha’s mind is simply the
uncompounded clarity of Bodhi (awakening), free from stirring and
constructions. So, Bodhidharma said, That which ordinary knowledge understands
is also said to be within the boundaries of the norms. When you do not produce
the mind of a common man, or the mind of a sravaka or a bodhisattva, and when
you do not even produce a Buddha-mind or any mind at all, then for the first
time you can be said to have gone outside the boundaries of the norms. If no
mind at all arises, and if you do not produce understanding nor give rise to
delusion, then, for the first time, you can be said to have gone outside of
everything. (From the Record #1, of the Collection of Bodhidharma’s Works3
retrieved from Dunhuang Caves)
....
also:
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/07/succinct-summary-of-no-mind-by-jayson.html
Succinct Summary of
No Mind by Jayson MPaul
Shared with Your
friends and Jayson's friends Someone on a forum asked me to summarise what I
have been explaining about No Mind (since I have a bad habit of explaining
something with too many words), I gave him this nice summary by Jayson MPaul :
"Jayson MPaul none of these things are about nihilism, although that is a
real danger for those who misunderstand emptiness. No Mind is what is always
already true. It has no existence of its own. No mind apart from phenomena, no
phenomena apart from mind. This is what Soh Wei Yu meant when he said there is
no true existence of mind."
Labels: Anatta,
Jayson MPaul, Zen Patriarch Bodhidharma 0 comments | |
...
"So what is
one mind, what is no mind and what is original mind in this context? One mind
is post non-dual but subsuming leaving trace. No mind is just one mind except
that there is evenness till the last trace is gone. Like what explains in the
text. Uji...all is time therefore no time. When you go from dual to non dual or
one mind to no mind, those are stages and experiences... If u got the condition
to get pointed out that originally there never was a mind, there are no stages
to climb... that is original mind. This requires insights and wisdom." -
John Tan, 2020
...
[8:53 PM,
7/26/2020] John Tan: In zen though they say there is no mind, they in fact
embrace mind more fully than all is mind, until no trace of mind can b
detected. Yet Shen Yen said this is just the entry point of zen because
originally there is no mind and this is clearly realized in anatta. So post
anatta, mind and phenomena r completely indisguishable. If both mind and
phenomena r completely indisguishable in experience, then distinctions r
nothing more than conventional designation of empty luminous display. [8:54 PM,
7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. btw did sheng yen realise anatta? [8:56 PM,
7/26/2020] John Tan: So u must know when we say no awareness, no self, no I, it
doesnt mean nothing. It is seeing through the background construct
and open the gate to directly taste, experience and effortless authenticate
clarity. [8:56 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: I believe so but he did not talk about
his experience except the stanza before his death that is beautiful. [8:57 PM,
7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. didnt see his stanza before [8:57 PM, 7/26/2020]
Soh Wei Yu: Yeah luminous aggregates [8:58 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: That are
also empty [8:58 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: 无事忙中老,空里有哭笑,本来没有我,生死皆可抛” 台湾高僧圣严法师圆寂
(Busy with nothing till old. (无事忙中老)
In emptiness, there is weeping and laughing. (空里有哭笑)
Originally there never was any 'I'. (本来没有我)
Thus life and death can be cast aside. (生死皆可抛))
- http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/11/differentiate-wisdom-from-art.html
[–]from Michael sent 5
hours ago
Thanks Soh :) The centre is just down the road for
me, perhaps a 5 minute walk. Zen appeals to me aesthetically, too.
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[–]to Michael sent 5
hours ago
Wow. You have good karma :)
[–]to Michael sent 5
hours ago
Btw this new sharing by john tan should also be
helpful to you too: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/09/uprooting-and-seeing-through.html
Also http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2013/04/daniel-post-on-anattaemptiness.html
[–]from Michael sent 4
hours ago
Great! Thank you.
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[–]from Michael sent 4
hours ago
Yes, there's no 'container' in which this vivid
colour show appears. It doesn't appear in space. Not in mind. Just 'here'—and
not even 'here' as 'here' implies 'there' or 'not here'.
No substance. No
source. Not 'made of' anything. Not made of mind, not made of matter. Nothing
'behind' appearances. No source from which they arise. Just perceptions, with
no perceiver.
Sometimes there's a
residual experience of appearances (lights, shape, colors, sounds, scents)
appearing 'in awareness' or 'to awareness', but this 'awareness' is recognized
to just be another transient mental image arising after the fact, not an actual
witness or perceiver or container or substance.
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[–]to Michael sent 4
hours ago
👍
the two links i sent you points to something more.
But its good your
anatta insight is sinking in. Continue practicing with the stanzas in mind
until the last trace of self/Self vanishes..
Also try to get this book, its compiled by john
daido loori https://www.amazon.com/Art-Just-Sitting-Essential-Shikantaza-ebook/dp/B003XF1LJI/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?crid=1NMJP6T3CH3M&keywords=john+daido+loori&qid=1663042731&sprefix=john+daido+loori%2Caps%2C624&sr=8-5
[–]to Michael sent 3
hours ago
From atr guide:
“Now with your
current insight and understanding, what should be the right approach to end
this lingering sense of self? Your practice should be always realization,
experience and views. Your experience must refine [to be] like the place where
there is no heat or cold*. Your anatta view must be extended to whatever
arises. Your realization must extend your anatta to dependent origination.” -
John Tan, early 2011
*The Place Where
There is No Heat or Cold: A monk asked Tozan, “When cold and heat come, how can
we avoid them?” Tozan said, “Why don’t you go to the place where there is no
cold or heat?” The monk said, “What is the place where there is no cold or
heat?” Tozan said, “When it’s cold, the cold kills you; when it’s hot, the heat
kills you.” This is not advice to “accept” your situation, as some commentators
have suggested, but a direct expression of authentic practice and
enlightenment. Master Tozan is not saying, “When cold, shiver; when hot,
sweat,” nor is he saying, “When cold, put on a sweater; when hot, use a fan.”
In the state of authentic practice and enlightenment, the cold kills you, and
there is only cold in the whole universe. The heat kills you, and there is only
heat in the whole universe. The fragrance of incense kills you, and there is only
the fragrance of incense in the whole universe. The sound of the bell kills
you, and there is only “boooong” in the whole universe... ~The Flatbed Sutra of
Louie Wing, Ted Biringer
[–]from Michael sent 3
hours ago
Something more in those two links… Do you mean
emptiness/no inherent existence?
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[–]to Michael sent 3
hours ago
Yes on emptiness. Not just anatta
[–]to Michael sent 3
hours ago
Also your lingering trace of awareness will and
should be exhausted in time.. may take a while
[–]to Michael sent 3
hours ago
August 2010:
“(11:07 PM)
Thusness: for example you see AF description of insight and experience are very
similar to what i described in anatta article.
(11:11 PM)
Thusness: there is no ending to this realization (11:42 PM) Thusness: Allow the
muddy waters of mental activity to clear; Refrain from both positive and
negative projection - leave appearances alone: The phenomenal world, without
addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.
-Tilopa this is
very good (11:46 PM) AEN: oic.. (11:51 PM) Thusness: ask how will what he
realize thus far can lead to the insight that The phenomenal world, without
addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.
ask luckystrikes (11:52 PM) AEN: ok posted (12:29
AM) AEN: Scott Kiloby: If you see that awareness is none other than everything,
and that none of those things are separate "things" at all, why even
use the word awareness anymore? All you are left with is the world, your life,
the diversity of experience itself. (12:30 AM) Thusness: very good. (12:31 AM)
Thusness: This is anatta (12:31 AM) AEN: oic.. (12:32 AM) Thusness: what’s left
in is the intensity of practice. (12:33 AM) Thusness: until there is completely
without trace of awareness” (Scott Kiloby wrote more recently: https://www.kiloby.com/post/the-case-against-awareness-a-little-blasphemy-goes-a-long-way)
[–]to Michael sent 3
hours ago
But even after it is exhausted, leaving only
luminous world as stated above, the new john tan article also said thats not
the end
[–]to Michael sent 3
hours ago
“It is not simply about freeing from elaborations
and we r left with with "the world" also. Nor is it simply about
experiencing presence and non-dual, they aren't the main concern.
[–]from Michael sent 3
hours ago
Thanks Soh, I’ll contemplate this.
On another note, I
saw the Reddit post you linked to the Facebook group, asking if AtR is ascam/cult, lol. I am glad you reached out to me, you’ve been very helpful and
generous with your time.
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[–]from Michael sent 3
hours ago
Ps. I think I realised emptiness before anatta - is
that possible?
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[–]to Michael sent 3
hours ago
Lol no worries about people thinking it is scam
The famous zen
master Linji said
“Those Ch'an
masters who are as timid as a new bride are afraid they might be expelled from
the monastery or deprived of their meal of rice, worrying and fretting. But
from times past the real teachers, wherever they went, were never listened to
and were always driven out - that's how you know they were men of worth. If
everybody approves of you wherever you go, what use can you be? Hence the
saying, Let the lion give one roar and the brains of the little foxes will
split open.”
[–]to Michael sent 3
hours ago
My teacher from Linji zen lineage, li zhu lao shi,
who also went through similar phases from i am to anatta (but she is not
related to thusness) encouraged me to continue teaching (although i never saw myself as a teacher)
[–]to Michael sent 3
hours ago
What did you realise about emptiness?
[–]from Michael sent 3
hours ago
That nothing has inherent existence; there's no
substance; nothing really exists. Not only is there no subject, but there's no
object either. No world, no universe; just the current sense experience. Just
this breath, just this color, just this smell. And those are all empty of
existence.
Before meeting you
I practiced the tantra of kashmiri shaivism via Rupert Spira. He calls it the
yoga of sensation and perception, and it involved dissolving the object (the
world) into just seeing, and then dissolving seeing into just the seer (the
knower, Awareness, the True Self)—and realizing that this is always the case.
This is sort the reverse path that AtR takes (There is hearing, no hearer; In
hearing, just sounds) so in some sense the emptiness of object/the world had
already been seen.
I could be wrong,
though. Sometimes it's hard to translate across different spiritual systems :)
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[–]to Michael sent 2
hours ago
Advaitic path, depending on the teacher, can be
pretty thorough at deconstructing the objective pole but it is a different
methodology from Madhyamaka. In the case of Advaita, objects are deconstructed
by subsuming into a nondual subjectivity. In Madhayamaka, both subject and
object are deconstructed released on the spot without subsuming. The way of
deconstructing is based on seeing dependent designations. For example, in the
seen just the seen, there is no seeing besides the seen nor something seen besides
seeing. Therefore there is no seer, no seeing, and nothing seen. This is not a
one way dependence where objects depend on awareness but awareness does not
depend on objects. Rather, it is a two-way dependence where awareness is as
much dependent on objects and appearance, as well as appearance or objects
being dependent on awareness. In this case, both poles are released without
subsuming. Do read http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2014/08/greg-goode-on-advaitamadhyamika_9.html
But a positive
thing about the Greg Goode/Atmananda Direct Path, and also possibly the Rupert
Spira path you mentioned, is that they do thorough deconstruction of
objectivity and physicality quite early on.
You should also
know that there are two aspects to emptiness, the aspect of freedom from
elaboration, and also the emptiness of self-nature.
You should also contemplate on this after your
anatta has stabilized: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2013/04/daniel-post-on-anattaemptiness.html
Thusness's comments
to AEN:
Hi AEN,
Those were just
some very casual sharing written on the spur of a moment, they were not well
thought. Emptiness to me has another dimension if you wish to look into it.
When there is not
even a single trace of Self/self nor is there any sense of inner/outer
division, experiencer and what experienced collapsed...
At this moment
there is just this vivid beautiful scenery, this bright brilliant world…all
self arises
At this point…
Close your eyes....
Voidness....
Relax and rest in
this all-consuming awaring void, this clear non-dual Awareness standing alone
as itself and of itself…
Then shift the
focus to the breath…
Just the sensations
of the breath…
Then the
transparent dancing sensations…absolutely no mind, no body, no
experiencer/experienced, no inner/outer division… borderless and boundless
Every moment is
great and miraculous…
This must become
natural to you first.
Then at this moment
of appreciating maha suchness of the breath, the sensations, the entire
scenery, the entire world…
Understand that
they are Empty!
Experience the
magnificence then deeply understand that they are empty but this Emptiness has
nothing to do with deconstruction nor reification nor do I mean they are simply
impermanent. So what is this Emptiness I am referring to?
..............
On another occasion
Thusness wrote:
Intelligent
Knowingness as permanent… continuous… so many projections into time… so
involved in mind conceptualities… Deconstruct seer, what happens is just this
spontaneously manifested scenery
Deconstruct body
further, you have mind-body drop
Deconstruct time,
there will only be this clear vivid presence of immediacy
After arising
insight of anatta, there is only “directness” and simplicity... go beyond
conventions and conceptuality and recognize this immediate radiance is exactly
what is appearing in this instantaneous moment...
If you are in need
of a view for practice, then embrace the general principle of Dependent
Origination that doesn’t entertain who-when-where construct, it will help sever
dualistic and inherent propensities. Otherwise you will have to go back to the
koan I asked you when I first met you in IRC… this moment ceases as it arises,
is this moment arising or ceasing? If you are clear, then further penetrate
this total exertion of immediacy and realize that though there is vivid
appearances, there is nothing here… nothing now… you will never find it!
[–]to Michael sent 2
hours ago
Additionally, these links may be of interest:
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/08/emptinesschariot-as-vivid-appearing.html
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/06/primordially-unborn.html
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/06/non-arising-due-to-dependent-origination.html
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2014/10/advise-from-kyle_10.html
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2012/03/a-sun-that-never-sets.html
Last two articles are by Krodha https://www.reddit.com/user/krodha/ ,
sorry I forgot if I mentioned about him
i wrote recently “
The admin of the Dzogchen subreddit, krodha, who is also an admin of Dzogchen
teacher Malcolm Smith’s Zangthal Sangha forum, made me an admin of the dzogchen
subreddit too. But i am mostly silent there
Acarya Malcolm told
me over dinner three years ago that Krodha is one of his first students to
totally understand his teachings. Both Acarya Malcolm and Krodha (kyle dixon)
has that anatta and emptiness insights too.
Thusness (john tan)
and myself have been attending Malcolm’s dzogchen teachings in the subsequent
years
Zangthal sangha as in www.zangthal.com”
[–]from Michael sent an
hour ago
Thank you :) I'll spend time with all of this.
·
Sweetness and everything else is non arising (see heart sutra). As Thusness said, “Non-arising means appearances without essence similar to a reflection, like a rainbow.”
We know a reflection of moon on water due to dependent origination doesn’t imply that a moon exists in the water.
As Jayson MPaul said, “Rainbows need to have eyes in correct position, water droplets, light, radiant mind, all like so for rainbow to appear. Move slightly and rainbow is gone. Never came from anywhere, stayed anywhere, or went anywhere. The rainbow was insubstantial, but vividly displayed. All phenomena are like this”
Everyone understands dynamic but not everyone understands what is dynamic is dependently originating and non arising like a rainbow or reflection. Vividly present yet nothing there. Hence the dynamic phenomena is also free of some sort of real existence undergoing arising, abiding and ceasing.
Dynamic phenomena can be mistaken as not empty - that is, it may be mistaken that there exists phenomena that have some sort of real essence or existence that is truly undergoing arising, abiding and ceasing by its own self existence, even if that process happens momentarily and quickly.
And as thusness just wrote to someone, “Actually it is the very nature of consciousness that "there is an absence of elephant but still you see an elephant", be it delusory conceptual constructs or pure vivid display, there is nothing there at all despite vivid clear appearances (dependent arising) -- both exhibit this unique characteristic.
Insight of this perculiar "absence/presence" is insight into the nature of "consciousness", so understanding consciousness is clear and knowing isn't enough.
Actually dependent arising is just pointing this illusoriness (mind-like) nature of mind, it is directly point at mind's nature.””
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