- Reply
- 1h
2008:
(8:04 PM) Thusness: Next what is mindfulness?
(8:04 PM) AEN: means bare attention of experience?
(8:04 PM) Thusness: what did Element said about "Mindfulness"?
(8:04 PM) AEN: more like recollecting something
(8:05 PM) Thusness: So in your opinion, is this a correct description of mindfulness?
(8:05 PM) AEN: dun tink so
(8:06 PM) AEN: actually
(8:06 PM) AEN: mindfulness has a quality of 'remembering' but its not like memory
(8:06 PM) AEN: more like coming back to attention thats all
(8:06 PM) Thusness: not good enough
(8:06 PM) Thusness: what else?
(8:07 PM) AEN: mindfulness is actually our natural state.. like what ven gunaratana said,
(8:07 PM) AEN:
When you first become aware of something, there is a fleeting instant of pure awareness just before you conceptualize the thing, before you identify it. That is a stage of Mindfulness. Ordinarily, this stage is very short. It is that flashing split second just as you focus your eyes on the thing, just as you focus your mind on the thing, just before you objectify it, clamp down on it mentally and segregate it from the rest of existence. It takes place just before you start thinking about it--before your mind says, "Oh, it's a dog." That flowing, soft-focused moment of pure awareness is Mindfulness. In that brief flashing mind-moment you experience a thing as an un-thing. You experience a softly flowing moment of pure experience that is interlocked with the rest of reality, not separate from it. Mindfulness is very much like what you see with your peripheral vision as opposed to the hard focus of normal or central vision. Yet this moment of soft, unfocused, awareness contains a very deep sort of knowing that is lost as soon as you focus your mind and objectify the object into a thin
(8:07 PM) AEN: . In the process of ordinary perception, the Mindfulness step is so fleeting as to be unobservable. We have developed the habit of squandering our attention on all the remaining steps, focusing on the perception, recognizing the perception, labeling it, and most of all, getting involved in a long string of symbolic thought about it. That original moment of Mindfulness is rapidly passed over. It is the purpose of the above mentioned Vipassana (or insight) meditation to train us to prolong that moment of awareness.
(8:09 PM) Thusness: What about the stuff Element said?
(8:10 PM) AEN: he speaks about mindfulness as if something we can direct according to our intentions
(8:10 PM) AEN: but i tink mindfulness is more like waking up from our conceptualization process to what is present
(8:11 PM) AEN: ya and he said mindfulness is like a supervisor
(8:11 PM) AEN: like watching the mind or something
(8:12 PM) Thusness: mindfulness as recollection
(8:12 PM) Thusness: but he further clarifies mindfulness as remembering to be in the present moment.
(8:12 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:13 PM) Thusness: so what has that got to do with the 3 seals?
(8:14 PM) AEN: the present moment exhibits 3 seals?
(8:14 PM) Thusness: and he brought up a very important topic, 'oneness vs dispassionate'
(8:15 PM) AEN: oic ya actually i think its the same
(8:15 PM) AEN: i wanted to reply yesterday but no time, but i saved some of the things i wrote... going to edit first
(8:15 PM) AEN: haven edited
(8:19 PM) Thusness: first tell me more about mindfulness
(8:20 PM) AEN: hmm wat about it
(8:20 PM) Thusness: what can u learn from Element and what you know
(8:21 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:21 PM) AEN: mindfulness is like recollecting what is present?
(8:22 PM) Thusness: how can u recollect what is present?
(8:23 PM) AEN: means not forgetting present moment and getting lost in thoughts?
(8:23 PM) Thusness: no
(8:24 PM) AEN: recollecting just means paying attention?
(8:24 PM) Thusness: no
(8:25 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:25 PM) AEN: means focusing on an object and keeping it in mind?
(8:25 PM) Thusness: no
(8:26 PM) AEN: dunnu leh
(8:26 PM) AEN: lol
(8:27 PM) Thusness: mindfulness is a form of practice
(8:27 PM) AEN: by noticing that you are not present?
(8:27 PM) Thusness: what is so great about being 'Now'?
(8:28 PM) AEN: because 'now' is the only reality?
(8:28 PM) Thusness: so what is so great about 'Reality'?
(8:29 PM) AEN: its clear and liberating?
(8:30 PM) Thusness: ???
(8:30 PM) Thusness: who tell u that?
(8:30 PM) Thusness: Buddha tell u that being in the 'Now' moment u will be liberated?
(8:30 PM) AEN: no
(8:30 PM) Thusness: then why u say that?
(8:31 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:31 PM) AEN: by clearly perceiving the true nature of the 'now' moment then there is liberation?
(8:31 PM) Thusness: who tell u that?
(8:31 PM) Thusness: no such thing.
(8:31 PM) AEN: icic
(8:31 PM) Thusness: It was derived.
(8:32 PM) Thusness: By some practitioners and masters.
(8:32 PM) AEN: being "now" means going pre symbolic?
(8:32 PM) AEN: oic
(8:33 PM) Thusness: first Element spoke about recollection.
(8:33 PM) Thusness: is mindfulness about recollection?
(8:33 PM) Thusness: or being pre-conceptual and bare.
(8:33 PM) AEN: i tink all?
(8:33 PM) Thusness: all as in?
(8:34 PM) AEN: its recollection, pre conceptual and bare
(8:34 PM) Thusness: meaning?
(8:34 PM) AEN: ven gunaratana said
(8:34 PM) AEN:
(A) Mindfulness reminds you of what you are supposed to be doing . In meditation, you put your attention on one item. When your mind wanders from this focus, it is Mindfulness that reminds you that your mind is wandering and what you are supposed to be doing. It is Mindfulness that brings your mind back to the object of meditation. All of this occurs instantaneously and without internal dialogue. Mindfulness is not thinking. Repeated practice in meditation establishes this function as a mental habit which then carries over into the rest of your life. A serious meditator pays bare attention to occurrences all the time, day in, day out, whether formally sitting in meditation or not. This is a very lofty ideal towards which those who meditate may be working for a period of years or even decades. Our habit of getting stuck in thought is years old, and that habit will hang on in the most tenacious manner. The only way out is to be equally persistent in the cultivation of constant Mindfulness. When Mindfulness is present, you will notice when you become stuck in your thought patterns. It
(8:34 PM) AEN: It is that very noticing which allows you to back out of the thought process and free yourself from it. Mindfulness then returns your attention to its proper focus. If you are meditating at that moment, then your focus will be the formal object of meditation. If your are not in formal meditation, it will be just a pure application of bare attention itself, just a pure noticing of whatever comes up without getting involved--"Ah, this comes up...and now this, and now this... and now this".
Mindfulness is at one and the same time both bare attention itself and the function of reminding us to pay bare attention if we have ceased to do so. Bare attention is noticing. It re- establishes itself simply by noticing that it has not been present. As soon as you are noticing that you have not been noticing, then by definition you are noticing and then you are back again to paying bare attention.
Mindfulness creates its own distinct feeling in consciousness. It has a flavor--a light, clear, energetic flavor. Conscious thought is heavy by comparison, ponderous and picky. But here again, these a
(8:35 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:35 PM) AEN: mindfulness becomes a mental habit?
(8:35 PM) Thusness: mindfulness leading to enlightenment?
(8:35 PM) AEN: huh
(8:36 PM) AEN: i mean mindfulness serves as recollection when it becomes a mental habit?
(8:36 PM) Thusness: What is the relationship between Mindfulness and Enlightenment?
(8:37 PM) AEN: u need mindfulness to see things as they are, like perceive the 3 characteristics
(8:38 PM) Thusness: closer...what is mindfulness?
(8:38 PM) AEN: means bare attention?
(8:38 PM) Thusness: bare is pre-symbolic like being naked in awareness.
(8:39 PM) AEN: icic ya
(8:40 PM) Thusness: now getting back to where u stop after ur mind wonders is not the purpose of mindfulness.
(8:40 PM) Thusness: every form of meditation requires us to do that.
(8:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:40 PM) AEN: so u mean
(8:40 PM) AEN: mindfulness is not recollection?
(8:41 PM) Thusness: u do not recollect present moment
(8:41 PM) AEN: icic
(8:41 PM) Thusness: what has it got to do with the 3 characteristics?
(8:41 PM) Thusness: the seals?
(8:42 PM) AEN: recollecting itself does not mean one perceives 3 characteristics
(8:42 PM) AEN: but only when one becomes observant
(8:42 PM) Thusness: ai yoo...
(8:42 PM) Thusness: Buddha spoke of the dharma seals.
(8:43 PM) Thusness: sounded simple but difficult to understand
(8:43 PM) Thusness: we cannot understand the wisdom behind it
(8:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:44 PM) Thusness: mindfulness has several characteristics
(8:44 PM) Thusness: in which bare attention or being naked and non-conceptual awareness is important
(8:45 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:45 PM) Thusness: 2nd is it must remind (not recollect)
(8:45 PM) Thusness: remind of what?
(8:45 PM) AEN: present moment? or what you are doing?
(8:46 PM) AEN: like breathing meditation then remind of that
(8:46 PM) Thusness: no
(8:46 PM) Thusness: what is there to remind
(8:46 PM) Thusness: when u r bare in attention, u r in the present
(8:46 PM) AEN: ya the reminding serves its purpose only when one becomes lost in thoughts, i tink
(8:46 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:47 PM) AEN: so u're saying reminding = being bare in attention?
(8:47 PM) Thusness: told u that is in all practices
(8:47 PM) Thusness: nothing to talk about.
(8:47 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:47 PM) Thusness: remind u constantly of the dharma seals.
(8:47 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:47 PM) Thusness: when u r bare in attention, does it mean that u know the dharma seals?
(8:48 PM) Thusness: when u r in non-dual, does it mean that u know the 3 characteristics?
(8:48 PM) AEN: i thinks perceiving 3 characteristics is also a matter of clarity?
(8:48 PM) Thusness: all experiences are distorted due to ignorance and propensities.
(8:49 PM) Thusness: for u, u say u r Eternal Witness as if u r constant and everything flow even now.
(8:49 PM) Thusness: Even after reading so much and countless conversation with me.
(8:49 PM) Thusness: so isn't it not clear yet?
(8:49 PM) AEN: oic
(8:50 PM) AEN: so being bare in attention doesnt mean one perceives the 3 characteristics
(8:50 PM) AEN: bcos of propensities?
(8:50 PM) Thusness: even now...even after years of reading and summarizing and discussions?
(8:50 PM) Thusness: yes
(8:50 PM) Thusness: we do not know
(8:50 PM) Thusness: therefore we need to remind ourselves of the seals.
(8:50 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:50 PM) Thusness: why?
(8:51 PM) Thusness: because insight and wisdom have not arisen.
(8:51 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:51 PM) Thusness: therefore u practice mindfulness
(8:51 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:52 PM) Thusness: u attempt to become non-conceptual, bare but the experience will still be distorted.
(8:53 PM) Thusness: now observing phenomena, seeing them arise and pass away, 'dispassion' arise
(8:53 PM) Thusness: does that mean that u seek what that does not arise and pass away?
(8:54 PM) AEN: depends on whether propensities is reacting?
(8:54 PM) AEN: or whether theres right understanding
(8:54 PM) Thusness: right understanding means u seek or don't seek?
(8:54 PM) AEN: dont seek
(8:54 PM) Thusness: so what is important?
(8:55 PM) AEN: insight?
(8:55 PM) Thusness: insight into what?
(8:55 PM) AEN: the 3 seals?
(8:55 PM) Thusness: or our empty nature
(8:55 PM) Thusness: we come to that later
(8:55 PM) AEN: icic
(8:57 PM) Thusness: This is very important.
(8:58 PM) Thusness: emphasized the 3 characteristics in vipassana because their clear seeing causes something called dispassion and dispassion is the cause of Nibbana.
(8:59 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:00 PM) Thusness: Remember wat I told u and truth about becoming so sick that u gave up everything?
(9:00 PM) Thusness: suffering causes so much pain that u gave up?
(9:01 PM) AEN: not so sure :P
(9:03 PM) Thusness: go and read what i told Isis also.
(9:03 PM) Thusness: and all the discussions about mindfulness relates to what I told u about the 2 practices i told u to do.
(9:04 PM) AEN: dropping and self inquiry?
(9:05 PM) Thusness: if u can understand what i said and the purpose, u will know what i meant and what i am trying to teach u from beginning.
(9:05 PM) Thusness: that is continue to recall and summarize non-dual and emptiness
(9:06 PM) Thusness: to have clarity in concepts and the meaning of it.
(9:06 PM) Thusness: to have the non-dual experience
(9:06 PM) Thusness: and lastly dropping
(9:07 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:07 PM) AEN: by recall u mean mindfulness?
(9:07 PM) AEN: btw wat did u tell isis
(9:08 PM) Thusness: dropping is about dispassion but it is not about dispassion but to arise a total willingness to let go.
(9:08 PM) Thusness: because grasping is 'self' in disguise.
(9:08 PM) Thusness: but non-dual experience will not be understood in terms of the 3 characteristics
(9:08 PM) Thusness: in terms of its empty nature
(9:11 PM) AEN: means one can have the experience of dispassion through dropping but not comprehending the 3 seals or emptiness?
(9:11 PM) Thusness: so bare and being non-conceptual will not allow u to have the right experience of non duality
(9:11 PM) AEN: icic
(9:11 PM) AEN: that is through recollecting or being mindful of the 3 seals right
(9:11 PM) AEN: or vipassana
(9:11 PM) AEN: *reminding
(9:12 PM) Thusness: vipassana must go with right view
(9:12 PM) AEN: icic
(9:17 PM) Thusness: So what are the purposes of the 3 practices?
(9:19 PM) AEN: dropping is to give rise to the total willingness to let go of the self, vipassana is to give rise to the insight of the 3 seals or emptiness, self inquiry is the experience the "I AM" and show how strong the propensity is?
(9:20 PM) Thusness: It is like the dispassion. That is very important.
(9:21 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:21 PM) Thusness: Oneness is very important too.
(9:21 PM) Thusness: Or non-dual luminosity :)
(9:21 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:21 PM) AEN: thats experienced through vipassana rite?
(9:22 PM) Thusness: Understand oneness from DO perspective.
(9:23 PM) Thusness: And non-dual presence through right view and experience of presence.
(9:24 PM) AEN: oic
(9:25 PM) Thusness: These 3 aspects must go hand in hand
(9:25 PM) Thusness: There is no point arguing
(9:26 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:26 PM) Thusness: There can be no true understanding of Buddha's teachings without non-dual insight.
(9:27 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:28 PM) Thusness: To understand the 3 relationships, u need to practice hard
(9:29 PM) Thusness: Don't be afraid of right views.
(9:29 PM) AEN: wat u mean by afraid of right views
(9:29 PM) Thusness: It will help.
(9:29 PM) AEN: u mean dont be afraid of having (right) views?
(9:30 PM) Thusness: Don't be trapped by non-conceptuality
(9:30 PM) AEN: oic
(9:30 PM) Thusness: Yes
(9:32 PM) Thusness: Having right views will sync non-dual luminosity with that 'dispassion' (total willingness to let go)
(9:33 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:33 PM) Thusness: The experience of Presence and non-dual experience can lead to very strong attachment of the Ultimate Reality
(9:34 PM) AEN: even after realising non duality?
(9:34 PM) Thusness: Yes
(9:34 PM) Thusness: But not anatta
(9:34 PM) AEN: oic
(9:34 PM) AEN: y attachment
(9:35 PM) Thusness: because of ignorance
(9:35 PM) AEN: icic
(9:35 PM) Thusness: Of our empty nature
(9:36 PM) Thusness: Therefore advaita is not Buddhism
(9:36 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:36 PM) AEN: btw buddha say dispassion is linked to disenchantment is linked to insight
(9:36 PM) AEN: "Dispassion, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment' should be the reply.
"Disenchantment, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' should be the reply.
(9:37 PM) Thusness: The arising of 'dispassion' is very important but must be correctly understood
(9:37 PM) AEN: icic
(9:38 PM) Thusness: U should take that para seriously
(9:39 PM) Thusness: But Oneness and non-dual should not be overlooked.
(9:39 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:40 PM) Thusness: Missing either one, missed the point.
(9:41 PM) Thusness: Therefore the 3 things I told u.
(9:41 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:42 PM) AEN: wat are the 3 things
(9:44 PM) Thusness: U tell me.
(9:45 PM) AEN: dispassion, oneness, DO?
(9:46 PM) Thusness: What I tell u to practice?
(9:50 PM) AEN: dropping, vipassana, self inquiry?
(9:51 PM) Thusness: Summary of non-duality and emptiness
(9:52 PM) Thusness: Having right view
(9:52 PM) Thusness: How many times must I tell U?
(9:53 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:54 PM) Thusness: Without the right view, even with non-dual experience, wisdom of nature will not arise.
(9:54 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:56 PM) AEN: so the 3 are dropping, non dual presence, and summarising?
(9:57 PM) Thusness: Yes
(9:57 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:15 PM) AEN: what is the difference between non dual and anatta
(10:19 PM) Thusness: It is the right understanding of non-dual experience free from the subject/Object and inherent views.
(10:20 PM) AEN: icic
(10:20 PM) AEN: that means one can realise pathless non dual but yet not be free from subject/object and inherent views?
(10:22 PM) Thusness: Huh?
(10:22 PM) Thusness: I hv written and told u so many times
(10:23 PM) Thusness: then what is emptiness for?
(10:26 PM) AEN: oic
(10:26 PM) AEN: but can u realise non dual and yet not be free from subject/object views?
(10:26 PM) AEN: or u mean inherency
(10:27 PM) Thusness: Yes
(10:27 PM) AEN: icic
(10:27 PM) Thusness: U can have non dual experience but not non-dual insight
(10:28 PM) AEN: so anatta actually includes understanding of DO and emptiness rite
(10:28 PM) AEN: non dual insight u mean insight into pathless nonduality or insight into anatta
(10:28 PM) Thusness: Which is clarity of what is the nature of our pristine awareness
(10:28 PM) Thusness: It is the same.
(10:28 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:29 PM) Thusness: when one spoke of no-self, one says there is no subject/Object split
(10:30 PM) Thusness: One understands
(10:30 PM) Thusness: One realises that there isn't such a split.
(10:31 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:32 PM) Thusness: But doesn't mean there is clarity
(10:32 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:37 PM) Thusness: Advaita realises that there is no split.
(10:37 PM) Thusness: But the grasping of the source is still there.
(10:38 PM) Thusness: However in anatta there is no grasping of anything.
(10:38 PM) AEN: how to grasp source when its realised to be all manifestation
(10:42 PM) Thusness: as long as one is under the propensity of Self, there is grasping of permanence.
(10:43 PM) AEN: oic ya even sailor bob adamson talks about awareness as permanent/changeless
(10:44 PM) AEN: though he said "everything in essence is that changeless natural knowing--nothing else"
(10:45 PM) Thusness: Although the experience is there, one is unable to fully go beyond this dualistic bond.
(10:45 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:45 PM) Thusness: Thus it is subtle and deep.
(10:45 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:46 PM) Thusness: The real essence that is empty of inherent existence is the cause of non-dual insight
(10:48 PM) Thusness: the practitioner will not be able to overcome that bond
(10:49 PM) Thusness: Even after the non-dual experience
(10:49 PM) Thusness: Even after deep experience
(10:50 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:51 PM) Thusness: Unless that inherent/dualistic view Is completely replaced in its inmost level
(10:51 PM) AEN: through emptiness?
(10:52 PM) Thusness: Therefore I said there is a desync
(10:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:53 PM) Thusness: Unable to go beyond it, practitioner prefer to rest in naked awareness
(10:54 PM) Thusness: The grasping will still be there because the root cause is still there.
(10:54 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:54 PM) AEN: grasping on what
(10:54 PM) AEN: source?
(10:55 PM) Thusness: But one having non-dual and realises our emptiness nature is not afraid of having right view.
(10:55 PM) Thusness: Yes source.
(10:55 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:56 PM) Thusness: But understand that it is a raft that serves as the antidote to dissolve inherent view.
(10:57 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:58 PM) Thusness: From it one gradually replaces inherent view and experiences nonlocality
(10:59 PM) AEN: means no sense of 'being here'?
(10:59 PM) Thusness: Because there is no need to hold on to anything in the deepest level.
(10:59 PM) AEN: icic
(10:59 PM) Thusness: No this nor that
(10:59 PM) Thusness: Here nor there
(11:00 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:00 PM) Thusness: Dissolve any inherent view, there is no returning nor going
(11:01 PM) Thusness: The experience of non-dual is refined
(11:01 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:01 PM) Thusness: The source is dropped
(11:01 PM) AEN: btw u realised DO/emptiness by contemplating on the buddha's verse 'this is, that is'?
(11:01 PM) AEN: oic
(11:02 PM) Thusness: No
(11:02 PM) AEN: oic then
(11:02 PM) Thusness: Because there is the truthfulness in me...Hehe
(11:03 PM) AEN: wat u mean
(11:03 PM) Thusness: My non-dual stage 5 does not sync in terms of view
(11:05 PM) Thusness: Therefore I continue to have further clarity in non-dual experience and compare with Buddha's teachings
(11:06 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:06 PM) AEN: u read the sutras?
(11:06 PM) Thusness: When deep in my mind I require no more subject/Object framework, my luminosity becomes clear.
(11:07 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:08 PM) Thusness: I can see the teachings with deeper clarity.
(11:09 PM) Thusness: There is no holding of any views
(11:09 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:10 PM) Thusness: It is just intuiting it is so.
(11:10 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:09 AM) AEN: truthz sent me this link to a video explanation of heart sutra, what u tink: http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=3173479
(2:13 AM) AEN: thats still non duality as a stage right?
(2:30 AM) AEN: i think it describing stage 2 rite
(12:39 PM) Thusness: The understanding is stage 2 but the experience is stage 5.
(12:39 PM) Thusness: therefore it is advaita sort of understanding.
(12:39 PM) Thusness: http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=3173479
(12:39 PM) Thusness: non-dual insight.
(12:39 PM) Thusness: not to misunderstand that the master doesn't know what is non-dual or emptiness.
(12:39 PM) Thusness: there is deep clarity. :)
Vipassana
Thusness's Vipassana
Four Foundations of Mindfulness: The Direct Path to Liberation
Luminosity vs Clarity
Fully Experience All-Is-Mind by Realizing No-Mind and Conditionality
Mindfulness as Remembrance
Update, a nice quote from Krodha/Kyle Dixon from 2022:
Defined in the Akṣayamati-nirdeśa as such:
The consciousness that perceives the entry into reality is called "vipaśyanā." So-called vipaśyanā is perceiving phenomena correctly, perceiving phenomena as they are, perceiving phenomena truly, and perceiving phenomena as not otherwise, perceiving phenomena as empty, without characteristics, without aspiration, perceiving phenomena to be unformed, likewise, nonarisen, unproduced, insubstantial, just as they are, pure, and as isolated. It is perceiving phenomena as unmoving, inactive, without self, wholly without grasping, inseparable, one taste, as the nature of space, and nirvana by nature.
This means that the real meaning of vipaśyanā is an awakened equipoise a synonym for realizing emptiness [śūnyatā].
The so-called practice of “vipassana” as in the vipassana movement is sort of a glorified śamatha. It is more of just a nice moniker, but it is not actual vipassana [vipaśyanā].
What separates vipaśyanā proper from deliberate mindfulness would be the fact that vipaśyanā is infused with gnosis [jñāna] whereas mindfulness is a sustained attention that is performed from within the confines of one’s everyday dualistic consciousness.” - https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRkcjo4JAZc8qKyi1LgyMBbdQ2y1krGKmERyoqskOtQNXuywTwARf87id2H3I9mt6jWUmUMCD2yG2oA/pub?fbclid=IwAR2IITo7WDnxwHicGupWA74gv6-tDIzisCIBlvh258kzW5MiOZKKlsWjlRo
…….
[18/12/18, 1:49:40 PM] John Tan: For communication purpose, it is necessary to point out this clarity
[18/12/18, 1:50:43 PM] John Tan: And one need also to realize the "clarity" pointed is simply a convention.
[18/12/18, 1:51:01 PM] John Tan: After these 2 pointings, what is realized?
[18/12/18, 2:07:10 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Anatta.. in the seen just the seen. Awareness is not existing by its own side, perceiving phenomena but is phenomena
[18/12/18, 2:07:52 PM] Soh Wei Yu: I think this is not directly mentioned in the book. It sees everything as just names but it doesn’t say awareness is a name imputed on the self luminous manifestation
[18/12/18, 2:08:25 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Rather it says the space like awareness is ground and cause of everything
[18/12/18, 2:08:29 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Sounds like source to me
[18/12/18, 2:16:50 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Actually I much prefer the mn1 sutta over many Dzogchen teachings, much more resonating with my insight. No source at all, Buddha say any view of emanation is wrong.. not skilful to conceive things coming out of infinite space, infinite consciousness, etc
[18/12/18, 2:17:16 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Is like in the seen just the seen.. no coming out of, no I, me, mine, just direct perception
[18/12/18, 2:23:58 PM] Soh Wei Yu: "He directly knows water as water... the All as the All...
"He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has known that delight is the root of suffering & stress, that from coming-into-being there is birth, and that for what has come into being there is aging & death. Therefore, with the total ending, fading away, cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, the Tathagata has totally awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening, I tell you."
[18/12/18, 2:25:09 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Even seung Sahn and his successors are unable to overcome the notion of source. And it seems many Dzogchen Teachers also
(note: I am by no means well-versed in Dzogchen and I'm sure there are many Dzogchen teachers that are very deeply realized, also I'm referring to some of expressions of some of the modern teachers I've read. Some of the old Dzogchen texts I've read are very good and resonating)
[18/12/18, 2:48:20 PM] Soh Wei Yu: image omitted
[18/12/18, 2:48:42 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Their emptiness insight is like saying reflections cannot be established as anything other than the mirror
[18/12/18, 2:48:58 PM] Soh Wei Yu: But anatta is more like mirror cannot be established as anything other than reflections lol
[18/12/18, 2:49:23 PM] Soh Wei Yu: This is not spoken and the no mirror insight is only expressed by Prabodha and Abhaya Devi that I know. Never seen it anywhere else in Dzogchen (Update by Soh in 2021: Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith and his student Kyle Dixon is clear about - see Clarifications on Dharmakaya and Basis by Loppön Namdrol/Malcolm, and some of the other old Dzogchen texts I've read)
[18/12/18, 2:50:41 PM] Soh Wei Yu: In Soto zen it is commonly expressed
[18/12/18, 2:50:43 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Even today
[18/12/18, 3:13:41 PM] Soh Wei Yu: No wonder Greg Goode says Dzogchen sounds too much like advaita to him
{quotes a book}
[18/12/18, 3:53:15 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Was just reminded of
[18/12/18, 3:53:22 PM] Soh Wei Yu: What u wrote in 2009:
“
What's seen is Awareness. What's heard is Awareness. All experiences are non-dual in nature. However this non-dual luminosity cannot be understood apart from the ‘causes and conditions’ of arising. Therefore do not see ‘yin’ as Awareness interacting with external conditions. If you see it as so, then it still falls in the category of mirror-reflecting. Rather see it as an instantaneous manifestation where nothing is excluded. As if the universe is giving its very best for this moment to arise. A moment is complete and non-dual. Vividly manifest and thoroughly gone leaving no traces.”
[18/12/18, 3:54:59 PM] Soh Wei Yu: The way I understand is that this book I'm reading, including many other Teachers, explain dependent origination in terms of awareness interacting with external conditions in the form of mirror reflecting
[18/12/18, 3:55:33 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Very unlike how Hong wen Liang, Dogen, Hakuun yasutani and other Soto zen masters explain about total exertion and no mirror
[18/12/18, 3:56:07 PM] John Tan: It is very difficult to bring out the point
[18/12/18, 4:02:12 PM] John Tan: As whatever can b expressed is easily reified, objectified and grasped instead of realizing it is merely pointing at seen, heard, sensed ...all 6 entries and exits, nothing beyond. The conventions created artificial boundaries when there is none. So vipassana is taught but not the 3 seals needs to go hand in hand with the luminous manifestation.
[18/12/18, 4:04:01 PM] Soh Wei Yu: But not the 3 seals?
[18/12/18, 4:04:36 PM] John Tan: Not just the 3 seals
[18/12/18, 4:07:13 PM] Soh Wei Yu: U mean not just the 3 seals is impt but must go with luminous manifestation?
[18/12/18, 4:09:02 PM] John Tan: Otherwise it becomes just a mindful reminder but vipassana is a direct insight.
Also, back in 2014:
Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:49pm UTC+08
i dont know whether his explanation reflects mahasi's understanding or buddhaghosa's description
Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:49pm UTC+08
then his 4th path is like anatta insight
Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:49pm UTC+08
daniel ingram's book however all the nanas seem like states
John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:49pm UTC+08
Yeah
Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:49pm UTC+08
i havent read his texts before
Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:48pm UTC+08
you mean what he wrote in visudhimagga?
John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:48pm UTC+08
But that does not mean we know more ...
John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:47pm UTC+08
Buddhaghosa I m not sure but the nana (insight) described is different...and whatever described is more like experience and anatta seems to b an inference than direct insight.
Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:45pm UTC+08
oic.. u mean buddhaghosa, mahasi sayadaw, goenka all have this problem? derived inference instead of experiential insight?
John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:44pm UTC+08
Vipassana is a technique that must go hand in hand with view and experience. Once realized, vipassana is natural and effortless.
John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:43pm UTC+08
Not an experiential insight
John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:43pm UTC+08
That is to me a derived inference
John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:43pm UTC+08
From there realized anatta
John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:42pm UTC+08
They r talking abt the 3 characteristics, the stream
John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:42pm UTC+08
So where is the insight?
John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:42pm UTC+08
Yeah abt them
Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:39pm UTC+08
the traditional techniques.. u dont mean mahasi or goenka? or are u talking about them
Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:38pm UTC+08
you mean emptiness insight?
Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:38pm UTC+08
so many are now talking about.. what?
John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:38pm UTC+08
So don't say whose technique is the best ...
John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:37pm UTC+08
But r those seeing through...u see the realization is in line with all the texts but when u look at the traditional techniques, u realized this lack...either they emphasis on the experience or the view but there is no insight at all.
John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:35pm UTC+08
So like u said, I think my approach is the best...lol...but u see so many is now talking abt it after going through all the different traditional techniques
John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:33pm UTC+08
Yeah
John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:33pm UTC+08
U also realized that the emptiness and chariot analogy and all Buddhist Mahayana emptiness sutta all r talking abt the insight of anatta extended...it is the same insight but brought to experiential taste...yet u do not see any emphasis at all...in almost all the traditions
Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:32pm UTC+08
you mean many people describe nana but those nana has no insight involved?
John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:31pm UTC+08
Some may say they realized anatta but may not b as thorough as seeing through....the insights (nana) from buddhaghosa or Mahasi or goenka....I wonder why is it called an insight at all since no insights whatsoever r involved. How is there no trace of a background I leading to the realization of no I and mine making and how thorough can it b without the seeing through?
Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:27pm UTC+08
piya tan learnt both goenka and mahasi technique and teaches them i believe
Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:26pm UTC+08
ic..
John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:26pm UTC+08
Lol...different technique, can't comment as outsider...
Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 9:20pm UTC+08
"I agree with Vince that Goenka does get a lot of people above the A&P but leaves many stranded there, though the same could be said of many traditions, and is in some ways just a common occurrence that is not necessarily one traditions fault but something inherent in the fact that getting to stream entry can sometimes be tricky. I get emails relatively regularly stating the same thing from frustrated meditators of not only Goenka but also other traditions. Now, it is true that there are good things about Goenka, but this debate has been hashed out elsewhere. My take on things is this: if you learn the maps, understand the vipassana jhanas, learn to recognize the traps, take what is good and notice where the Mahasi kids and the Goenka kids agree (Three Characteristics), and learn to go on retreats with the benefit of that additional heads up and technology, then it is probably possible to take advantage of the good aspects of Goenka (donation-based, widely available, strong discipline), and fuse it with the good stuff from Mahasi (the best maps ever, excellent diagnostic criteria, a profound understanding of the fine-points of the path stripped of dogmatic crap, and strong advice on technique, etc.). As to what to put attention on, I tend to recommend vibrations wherever found, watching for the shifts that make these wider and watching for the phase and frequency changes that occur so as to not get stuck, and a basic emphasis on watching as much of the thing come and go as possible, to gradually include all of space and everything in it, realizing the odd shifts that happen in the transition from 2nd to 3rd to 4th vipassana jhanas, as describe in my book and elsewhere. That said, you can do this with body scanning, breath, choiceless awareness, or other objects, as it is more of a meta-perspective on these more specific techniques and focuses. Helpful? " "Please don't misunderstand me, it is not that I do not recommend Goenka centers, as I know a good number of people who have gotten some real benefit from them, the price is clearly right, they are pretty on the up and up as centers and traditions go, I know numerous people who have crossed the Arising and Passing Away during their courses, and thus, there is much to be said for them. I do have some critiques, however, about a few things. I do know that during the first 3 month retreat at IMS where they used the Mahasi method over body-scanning that they got many more stream enterers and others with deep insights and they basically never looked back. I know that many who have gotten into interesting territory on Goenka retreats have not had teachers there who could tell them what was happening, what to do next, how it might effect their daily life, etc., all of which I consider suboptimal and unfortunate. The tradition is a bit sectarian without necessarily the track record to justify this, though again, as a widespread, dana-based insight movement, the world is clearly a better place for it, and many do get their start there. In short, a mixed bag, but that is not the same as me not recommending them. Best of luck posting your pages, and I do think that posting the pros and cons of various centers and where they is a very good thing, as plenty of people need local options, and more insight practice, even if I personally don't consider it the very most effective, sophisticated and fully developed, is definitely a good idea. "
Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 9:17pm UTC+08
"Dear Aziz, Glad you like it. Strangely, while I haven't been on a Goenka retreat, what I hear of them doesn't sound hardcore enough for me, not enough emphasis on every sensation, every second technique from the moment of waking to the moment of sleeping, not enough emphasis on progress, no maps, low expectations on people getting stream entry and beyond, low quality discussion of technical aspects, etc. Anyway, just one opinion. Daniel "
Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 9:17pm UTC+08
strangely
Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 9:17pm UTC+08
it seems that daniel ingram doesnt seem very impressed with goenka style practice
Vipassana Must Go With Luminous Manifestation
Four Foundations of Mindfulness: The Direct Path to Liberation
Vipassana
Thusness's Vipassana
"Te pana, Samiddhi, kiṃsamosaraṇā"ti? "Vedanāsamosaraṇā, bhante"ti.
"And what, Samiddhi, accompanies them?"
"Sensation accompanies them, sir."
Another aspect of the practice of Vipassanā meditation is exploration of mental reality. As body cannot be experienced without the sensations that arise within it, similarly mind cannot be experienced apart from what its contents - in Pāli, Dhamma. Hence observation of mind (cittānupassanā) and observation of mental contents (dhammānupassanā) are inseparable. When the mind contains craving the meditator realizes this fact. When it is free from craving the meditator realizes this as well. Similarly he realizes when the mind contains aversion or ignorance, and when it is free from these defilements. He realizes when the mind is agitated and scattered, or tranquil and concentrated. This is how he practises cittānupassanā.