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Radiant's Post
An individual mindstream is a collection of many moments of aggregates of 6-sense objects. Nowhere in this individual, this particular perspective of universe does reside an I.
But the synchronicities of storylines in various individuals and the flow of magical display in each midstream, though arisen out of mind's ignorance, require a will, a force.
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Soh Wei Yu
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This
will is in fact karmic action. It is karmic action that is the cause of
the synchronicities of storylines in various individuals and so on. You
can ask Sim Pern Chong
- he can recall precisely how karmic actions in previous lives led to
karmic effects in this life, how he and his wife, child, and others were
related from past lives.
2006:
(11:37
PM) John: By the way, there are potentialities and tendencies and by
taking thoughts, we actualized it. Actuality is always known, the
source is ever unknown.
(11:38 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:39 PM) AEN: wat kind of tendencies
(11:40 PM) John: karma are tendencies, becoming is a form of tendencies, impermanence, emptiness
(11:40 PM) John: if u tell longchen, he will have a glimpse of it. 
(11:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:41 PM) John: but that will set him into thoughts again which is what i don't want.
(11:41 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:41 PM) AEN: but he will eventually know la
(11:41 PM) John: yeah.
(11:41 PM) AEN: icic
(11:42 PM) John: the seeds should now be strong enough
(11:42 PM) John: he must touch it wherever he is.
(11:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:49 PM) John: See deep silence as flow,
See form as emptiness,
See actuality as tendencies,
See solidity as flux.
(11:49 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:50 PM) John: reply to bob. 
(11:50 PM) John: eheheheh
(11:50 PM) AEN: i reply?
(11:50 PM) AEN: o ok
(11:50 PM) John: but tell him thanks.
(11:50 PM) AEN: ok
(11:51 PM) AEN:
Thanks for your reply...
See deep silence as flow,
See form as emptiness,
See actuality as tendencies,
See solidity as flux.
...
(10:15 PM) John: karma is more of intention or action, effort, doing...
(10:16 PM) John: it is a form of tendency to be
...
(9:09
PM) John: Because I am a Buddhist, I'll be posting from Buddhism's
point of view. It is not 'conceptual' but karmic strength in Buddhism
that defines the relationship of the atoms and particles. Sensation and
impression are labels defined by a dualistic mind. When we name and
label them as such, it will have subtle power over us so subtle that it
may go undetected.
(9:09
PM) John: Our mind will be confused by these definitions until we are
able to go beyond the effect of these subtle imprints and stabilize our
intuitive experience, further understanding of the source will be
limited because in Buddhism it is this intuitive mind (not the
conceptual mind) that can understand the source.
...
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2006:
(8:53 PM) John: what is the diff between what is posted and those zen masters' poems
(8:53 PM) AEN: true experience, theoretical?
(8:53 PM) John: yes but what is the true experience like?
(8:54 PM) AEN: experiencing the presence in everything without self
(8:54 PM) John: yes! fusing into everything....
(8:55 PM) John: the tennis court....the drum beats of the foot step
(8:55 PM) AEN: oic
(8:55 PM) John: that clarity breaks the first level into the 2nd
(8:55 PM) AEN: icic how come
(8:55 PM) John: the luminosity of the mirror bright
(8:55 PM) AEN: u mean by experiencing that one will immediately realise Emptiness?
(8:56 PM) John: wait...what is the differences between that and emptiness?
(8:56 PM) John: sorry i mean "AMness"
(8:57 PM) John: the clarity of zen masters enlightenment and "AMness"
(8:57 PM) AEN: amness is still attached to a state of purity? not completely fuse into everything?
(8:58
PM) John: yes...has the zen master not demonstrated in their lives
about the luminous clarity in all things that came into contact?
(8:59 PM) John: is there a self?
(8:59 PM) John: there is only the everything
(8:59 PM) John: where is the 'Self'?
(8:59 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:59 PM) AEN: but hmm
(9:00
PM) AEN: i tot u also said b4, when one experiences the 'i am' when 6
senses are widely open, one will experience it as 'i am all'. isnt that
also sort of fusing into everything?
(9:00 PM) John: yes....and zen masters might have the danger of that too....
(9:01 PM) AEN: oic
(9:01 PM) John: so luminosity is not nature
(9:01 PM) John: what is it?
(9:01 PM) AEN: emptiness?
(9:01 PM) John: yes
(9:01 PM) AEN: icic
(9:01 PM) John: it is anatta...now this, now that, always changing and ungraspable
(9:02 PM) AEN: icic
(9:02 PM) John: the ungraspable is anatta manifestation.
(9:02 PM) John: it is seen in all
(9:02 PM) John: in everything
(9:02 PM) AEN: oic
(9:02 PM) John: if u return and want to rest in the 'Self', instead of gaining, u lost everything
(9:02 PM) AEN: icic
(9:03 PM) John: the nature is anatta, there is no self
(9:03 PM) John: understand?
(9:03 PM) AEN: ya
(9:04 PM) John: now when one understand this, he lays the foundation of stabilizing this in "everything" experience
(9:04 PM) John: because he is not returning to the "AMness"
(9:04 PM) AEN: oic
(9:04 PM) John: he is not confused anymore
(9:04 PM) AEN: icic
(9:05 PM) John: he finds it in all things without returning...though ungraspable, it is always seized at the moment.
(9:05 PM) AEN: oic
(9:05 PM) John: and how it arise? this is, that is
(9:05 PM) John: emptiness
(9:05 PM) AEN: icic
(9:06 PM) John: so i said extend it to the six senses, presence without self
(9:06 PM) John: sound without hearer
(9:06 PM) John: scenery without seer
(9:06 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:06 PM) John: everything to experience and understand anatta
(9:07 PM) AEN: icic
(9:07 PM) John: so that "AMness" presence is experienced in all moment without the need to fall back.
(9:07 PM) AEN: oic
(9:07 PM) John: how could there be movement then?
(9:08 PM) John: it is just arising and ceasing
(9:08 PM) John: because there is no moment that is not so.
(9:08 PM) AEN: icic
(9:08 PM) AEN: ya
(9:08 PM) AEN: that is not wat?
(9:09 PM) John: that is not arising and ceasing according to conditions and causes
(9:09 PM) John: emptiness
(9:09 PM) John: this must be understood after clarity
(9:09 PM) AEN: oic
(9:10 PM) John: but there cannot be any movement, because there is no moment that is not like that
(9:10 PM) AEN: icic
(9:11
PM) John: then from this complete clarity, emptiness, no movement, yet
everything wonderfully arises and ceases, one experiences the
spontaneous arising, the self-so, the unconditioned
(9:11 PM) John: then there is true insight.
(9:11 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:11 PM) John: then karma will make sense
(9:12 PM) John: because of arising without self
(9:12 PM) John: arises with causes and condition without self
(9:12 PM) John: therefore be serious about the deeds
(9:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:13 PM) John: in "AMness", how does karma step in?
(9:13 PM) John: he will be confused because "AMness" in its ultimate sense is a controller.
(9:13 PM) AEN: icic
(9:14 PM) John: all these are words, it is the true experience that is most crucial.
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Soh Wei Yu
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“9/5/2012
11:51 PM: John: [A reified] Aware intelligence is the problem. Just say
I have been told to understand immense intelligence not as if someone
is there to act and direct, rather as total exertion of the universe to
make this moment possible; then all appearances are miraculous and
marvelous.” - John Tan, 2012
No Self, No Doer, Conditionality
Also see: Some Remarks on Conceptualization and Transcendent Experience
Dukkham-eva hi na koci dukkhito,
Karako na, kiriya va vijjati,
Atthi nibuti, na nibbuto puma,
Maggam-atthi, gamako na vijjati.
"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen."
Kammassa Karako natthi,
Vipakassa ca vedako,
Suddhadhamma pavattanti,
Ev 'etam sammadassanam.
No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits,
Empty phenomena roll on,
This view alone is right and true.
Na hettha devo brahma va,
Samsarass-atthi karako,
Suddhadhamma pavattanti,
Hetusambharapaccaya ti.
No god, no Brahma, may be called,
The maker of this wheel of life,
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all." Visuddhimagga XIX.
-------------------------------
In the ultimate sense, there do not even exist such things as
mental states, i.e. stationary things. Feeling, perception,
consciousness, etc., are in reality mere passing processes of feeling,
perceiving, becoming conscious, etc., within which and outside of
which no separate or permanent entity lies hidden.
Thus a real understanding of the Buddha's doctrine of kamma and
rebirth is possible only to one who has caught a glimpse of the
egoless nature, or //anattata//, and of the conditionality, or
//idappaccayata//, of all phenomena of existence. Therefore it is said
in the //Visuddhimagga// (Chap. XIX):
Everywhere, in all the realms of existence, the noble disciple
sees only mental and corporeal phenomena kept going through the
concatenation of causes and effects. No producer of the
volitional act or kamma does he see apart from the kamma, no
recipient of the kamma-result apart from the result. And he is
well aware that wise men are using merely conventional language,
when, with regard to a kammical act, they speak of a doer, or
with regard to a kamma-result, they speak of the recipient of the
result.
No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits;
Empty phenomena roll on:
This only is the correct view.
And while the deeds and their results
Roll on and on, conditioned all,
There is no first beginning found,
Just as it is with seed and tree. ...
No god, no Brahma, can be called
The maker of this wheel of life:
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all.
In the //Milindapanha// the King asks Nagasena:
"What is it, Venerable Sir, that will be reborn?"
"A psycho-physical combination (//nama-rupa//), O King."
"But how, Venerable Sir? Is it the same psycho-physical
combination as this present one?"
"No, O King. But the present psycho-physical combination produces
kammically wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities, and
through such kamma a new psycho-physical combination will be
born."
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Awakening to Reality
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Soh Wei Yu
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Buddha said:
"This humankind is attached to self-production
Or holds to production by another.
Those who have not understood this
Have not seen it as a dart.
But one who sees (this as it is),
Having drawn out the dart,
Does not think, 'I am the agent,'
Nor does she think, 'Another is the agent.'
This humankind is possessed by conceit,
Fettered by conceit, bound by conceit.
Speaking vindictively because of their views,
They do not go beyond samsara."
- Tatiyananatitthiya Sutta
--------------------
Lopon Malcolm said:
"There is no "experiencer" since there is no agent. There is merely experience, and all experience is empty."
"There are no agents. There are only actions. This is covered in the refutation of moving movers in chapter two of the MMK."
"Why should there be someone upon whom karma ripens? To paraphrase the
Visuddhimagga, there is no agent of karma, nor is there a person to
experience its ripening, there is merely a flow of dharmas."
DHARMAWHEEL.NET
Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana - Page 2 - Dharma Wheel
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Soh Wei Yu
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"What is this selfless force that keeps the phenomenon running"
You are experiencing impersonality but reifying it into a universal source. This is a wrong interpretation.
Also see the part below "Have you noticed that your hair and nails grow all by themselves.":
Session Start: Thursday, 7 June, 2007
(9:17 PM) Thusness: i glance through grim's conversation briefly, do sent me again.
(9:18 PM) AEN: huh u lost the file ah
(9:18 PM) AEN: hold on
(9:19 PM) AEN: Initiated a file transfer
(9:20 PM) Transfer of "NEITHER THE NEITHER THE NEITHER.docx" is complete.
(9:20 PM) Thusness: this url u sent :http://now-for-you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=27671&highlight=#27671 -- is this talking about vitality?
(9:21 PM) Thusness: he needs to understand no-self, then form is emptiness, then can know the essence of it.
(9:21 PM) AEN: oic
(9:21 PM) AEN: then wat is tat
(9:21 PM) Thusness: it is just a glimpse of it.
(9:21 PM) AEN: oic
(9:22 PM) Thusness: it has link to experiencing transience as presence
(9:22 PM) AEN: icic
(9:23
PM) Thusness: if he realises that transients are presence, then
transients themselves are intelligence. Why is 'I AM' needed?
(9:23 PM) AEN: icic
(9:23 PM) Thusness: it is a deeper realisation beyond "I AMness"
(9:23 PM) AEN: oic
(9:24 PM) Thusness: intelligence are all around, in all moments and everywhere.
(9:25 PM) AEN: icic
(9:25
PM) Thusness: orphan thoughts are intelligent, luminously clear and
spontaneous. Why do u need 'someone' to be the center of these orphan
thoughts?
(9:25 PM) Thusness: that center is really moulded by propensities. Experience it directly.
(9:26 PM) AEN: what orphan thoughts
(9:26 PM) AEN: he wrote?
(9:26 PM) Thusness: no..previous written by larryroot
(9:26 PM) AEN: o icic
(9:26 PM) Thusness: i always tok about transients are presence.
(9:27 PM) AEN: oic
(9:33 PM) AEN: sorry that was word 07 format
(9:33 PM) You cannot send this file because it appears to be in use. Close the program that is using this file and try again.
(9:33 PM) Sending of "Neither2.doc" to Thusness has failed.
(9:33 PM) AEN: Initiated a file transfer
(9:34 PM) Transfer of "Neither2.doc" is complete.
(9:40 PM) Thusness: not bad but still not so clear.
(9:40 PM) AEN: oic.. which parts not bad and wats not clear
(9:42 PM) Thusness: the whole thing.
(9:42 PM) AEN: lol
(9:42 PM) AEN: ok
(9:42 PM) Thusness: both are moving into deep level of realisation.
(9:42 PM) AEN: wat level
(9:44 PM) AEN: i tink the discussion was quite interesting
(9:44 PM) AEN: i sent to to truthz he ask me whether can put in his blog also, i said i dunno hahaha
(9:44 PM) Thusness: his discussions yes.
(9:44 PM) AEN: ya
(9:45 PM) AEN: he said the method has to be 'on the fly' so i thought he meant only those who he speak personally
(9:45 PM) AEN: he claims that he is able to lead someone to awakening by 'discourse' alone
(9:46 PM) AEN: as in talk him into it
(9:46 PM) AEN: but i didnt had any awakening anyway it was like 3 a.m and i was damn tired
(9:46 PM) AEN: hahaha
(9:46 PM) AEN: mind isnt clear
(9:49 PM) Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle
(10:03 PM) Thusness: u will not be able to understand now.
(10:03 PM) Thusness: even what he said is not exactly right yet.
(10:04 PM) Thusness: and from the conversation, in msn, it is difficult for u to grasp anything.
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
The Tendency to Extrapolate a Universal Consciousness
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(10:06 PM) AEN: oh isit haha
(10:06 PM) AEN: but he said he 'done it b4'
(10:06 PM) AEN: dunnu he mean done on himself or others
(10:07 PM) Thusness: u mean he done it b4 as in awakening others?
(10:07 PM) AEN: cld be, not sure wat he meant
(10:07 PM) Thusness: the first portion is okie
(10:07 PM) Thusness: that is self enquiry.
(10:07 PM) AEN: icic
(10:07 PM) Thusness: but it is not like what u think.
(10:07 PM) Thusness: and definitely not like what he thinks also.
(10:07 PM) AEN: wat u mean by 'not like u he think also'
(10:07 PM) AEN: lol
(10:08 PM) Thusness: u r many steps away from him and his is few steps away from what he's understanding.
(10:08 PM) Thusness: that is, his experience and his understanding cannot sink
(10:08 PM) AEN: oic
(10:08 PM) Thusness: the in between is the 'no center' part
(10:09 PM) Thusness: unless there is clarity in this experience
(10:09 PM) Thusness: up till stability
(10:09 PM) AEN: in between where and where
(10:09 PM) Thusness: now for u is moving into an interesting level.
(10:09 PM) AEN: what level
(10:09 PM) AEN: got 'collective level' one meh
(10:09 PM) AEN: hahaha
(10:09 PM) Thusness: i don't know what u meant.
(10:10 PM) AEN: u said now for u forum moving to an interesting level?
(10:10 PM) AEN: lol
(10:10 PM) Thusness: what do u meant by collective level?
(10:10 PM) Thusness: i mean amadeus
(10:10 PM) AEN: u said now for u
(10:10 PM) AEN: hahaha
(10:10 PM) AEN: i misunderstood
(10:10 PM) Thusness: icic
(10:10 PM) AEN: but he's still not at no self? amadeus
(10:11 PM) Thusness: here and there lah...in between....stage 4
(10:11 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:11 PM) Thusness: very clearly there.
(10:11 PM) AEN: oic
(10:11 PM) Thusness: but there will be confusion.
(10:11 PM) AEN: wat sort
(10:12 PM) Thusness: it is difficult to tell u now...
(10:12 PM) AEN: dark night?
(10:12 PM) Thusness: two major hindrance
(10:12 PM) AEN: oic
(10:12 PM) Thusness: not so.
(10:12 PM) AEN: wat
(10:12 PM) AEN: icic
(10:12 PM) Thusness: u don't have to know.
(10:12 PM) Thusness: lol
(10:12 PM) AEN: har
(10:12 PM) AEN: lol
(10:12 PM) Thusness: wait for him to come buddhism.
(10:12 PM) AEN: he will??
(10:12 PM) Thusness: in ur forum lah
(10:12 PM) Thusness: if got the yuan.
(10:12 PM) AEN: orh haha tot so
(10:12 PM) AEN: oic
(10:13 PM) Thusness: otherwise just let it be.
(10:13 PM) Thusness: heheehhe
(10:13 PM) Thusness: almost ripe liao.
(10:13 PM) AEN: lol but if telling him will help then u shld
(10:13 PM) AEN: oic
(10:13 PM) AEN: ripe for?
(10:13 PM) Thusness: but see he got the yuan or not.
(10:13 PM) AEN: oic
(10:13 PM) AEN: ripe for wat
(10:13 PM) Thusness: why u want to know leh
(10:14 PM) Thusness: then u go tell ppl.
(10:14 PM) AEN: hahaha no lah
(10:14 PM) AEN: i won
(10:14 PM) Thusness: u win what
(10:14 PM) Thusness:
(10:14 PM) AEN: *wont
(10:14 PM) Thusness: lol
(10:14 PM) Thusness: i know lah
(10:14 PM) AEN: lol
(10:15 PM) Thusness: amadeus experience is here and there....
(10:15 PM) Thusness: a bit of 3,4 and 5
(10:15 PM) Thusness: lol
(10:15 PM) Thusness: so it is difficult to tell u.
(10:15 PM) AEN: haha icic
(10:15 PM) Thusness: not actually a bit, actually the experience is quite enough
(10:16 PM) Thusness: but linger around 3,4,5
(10:16 PM) AEN: oic..
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(10:16
PM) Thusness: there is no one crystal clear insight and direct
experience to clear all his doubts and bring him to the quantum leap in
perception.
(10:17 PM) Thusness: there 2 insights that he must have.
(10:17 PM) AEN: what insights
(10:17 PM) Thusness: one is the transients are presence through no-self
(10:17 PM) Thusness: and the other is emptiness as forms
(10:17 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:18 PM) Thusness: but many do not have the clarity to lead him to the direct experience of these 2 insights
(10:18 PM) AEN: oic
(10:19 PM) Thusness: u know the url is about what?
(10:20 PM) Thusness: the hair
(10:20 PM) AEN: huh
(10:20 PM) Thusness: Have you noticed that your hair and nails grow all by themselves.
Are you aware of the myriad processes and intricate balances that are necessary to keep your body healthy.
Are we aware of this intelligence, of this life?
Are we truly in touch in with it?
Is this intelligence/life, just in our body or is it in every living and non living thing on the planet and beyond.
(10:21 PM) AEN: oic
(10:21 PM) AEN: vitality? i dunno
(10:21 PM) Thusness: Do we really realize how vast we are?
(10:21 PM) AEN: its like realising awareness as all pervading?
(10:21 PM) Thusness: i mean i told u b4 about this experience right?
(10:22 PM) AEN: i dunno.. u mentioned about expansion b4
(10:22 PM) Thusness: i told u that the plant that grows outside the window, the spinning of the universe
(10:23 PM) AEN: "
4.
Only one tremendous spontaneous clarity flows, there is no
differentiation between what that spins the earth or what that pumps
your heart beats or what that makes the plants grow. When you eat an
apple, it is the entire universe that eats the apple. Just one whole
clarity spontaneity flow. Continual experience of transcendence joy and
bliss." ?
(10:23 PM) Thusness: yeah
(10:24 PM) Thusness: but what he experienced is just only a tiny bit of the experience.
(10:24 PM) Thusness: because there is no clarity of the 2 quantum leap in perceptions
(10:25 PM) Thusness: hehehe...
(10:25 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:25 PM) Thusness: c din bluff u.
(10:25 PM) AEN: lol
(10:25 PM) AEN: icic
(10:25 PM) Thusness: there are such experience...but i define the chronological sequence
(10:26 PM) Thusness: what are the conditions necessary for the experiences to be stabilized
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(10:26 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:26 PM) Thusness: that is why i say here and there
(10:26 PM) Thusness: 3,4,5
(10:26 PM) AEN: icic.. means sometimes he get to stage 5 but no clarity
(10:26 PM) Thusness: there are experiences here and there.
(10:27 PM) Thusness: but there is no clarity
(10:27 PM) AEN: icic
(10:27 PM) Thusness: so u can see all his experiences all around
(10:27 PM) Thusness: here and there
(10:27 PM) AEN: oic
(10:27 PM) Thusness: lol
(10:27 PM) AEN: haha
(10:36 PM) Thusness: u said u discuss the conversation in a forum with truthz?
(10:37 PM) AEN: huh
(10:37 PM) AEN: forum?
(10:37 PM) AEN: i only sent the convo to truthz
(10:37 PM) AEN: then he said he wanted to post it in his blog cos he tot its useful
(10:37 PM) Thusness: ic.
(10:37 PM) AEN: then i say i dunno will ask grim first
(10:37 PM) Thusness: yeah i think so.
(10:37 PM) AEN: its useful?
(10:37 PM) Thusness: quite useful.
(10:38 PM) AEN: icic yea
(10:38 PM) Thusness: change Thusness to 'what is'.
(10:38 PM) Thusness: i think that is better.
(10:38 PM) AEN: as in
(10:38 PM) Thusness: coz ppl will not understand that term.
(10:38 PM) AEN: oic
(12:00
AM) Thusness: This sentence is conditional, "whenever you do such and
such, then you can be still and at peace" and of course this is true.
but it's a relative truth
because
when you fully realize your true nature, there are no more conditions,
there is only ever your true nature, no matter how you are acting or
reacting or what you are feeling
(12:01 AM) Thusness: since your true nature is what you are, how could you possibly lose it?
(12:01 AM) Thusness: what does this mean?
(12:01 AM) AEN: our true nature is not a state but is everything?
(12:02 AM) AEN: no choosing
(12:02 AM) Thusness: u remember i wrote a post about the transients we shun away are the very presence we are seeking?
(12:02 AM) AEN: guess so
(12:03 AM) Thusness: isn't what amadeus said the same?
(12:04 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:04 AM) Thusness: but is this a logical deduction or a direct experience?
(12:04 AM) AEN: dunno leh
(12:04 AM) AEN: lol
(12:04 AM) AEN: logic?
(12:04 AM) Thusness: how do we know?
(12:04 AM) AEN: dunno
(12:04 AM) AEN: hahaha
(12:04 AM) Thusness: lol
(12:05 AM) Thusness: just quote what i said to him, and ask him is that a logical deduction or direct experience.
(12:05 AM) AEN: quote what
(12:05 AM) AEN: orh
(12:05 AM) AEN: that post
(12:06 AM) Thusness: i mean what i said in the post of "the final truth"
(12:06 AM) AEN: huh
(12:06 AM) AEN: i quote u
(12:06 AM) AEN: then i ask him?
(12:06 AM) Thusness: yeah
(12:06 AM) AEN: in where
(12:07 AM) AEN: as i
(12:07 AM) AEN: as in
(12:07 AM) AEN: where do i reply him at
(12:07 AM) Thusness: http://now-for-you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2551
(12:07 AM) AEN: ok
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(12:09 AM) AEN:
The
transients that we shunt away are the very Presence we are seeking; it
is a matter of living in Beingness or living in constant identification.
Beingness flows and identification stays. Identification is any attempt
to return to Oneness without knowing its nature is already non-dual.
(12:09 AM) AEN: the first part of the first sentence or the whole paragraph or?
(12:11 AM) AEN: u there?
(12:11 AM) Thusness: the first part
(12:11 AM) AEN: this only: The transients that we shunt away are the very Presence we are seeking
(12:13 AM) Thusness: then link to the part on the nail and hair portion
(12:13 AM) Thusness: and include this portion
(12:13
AM) Thusness: If everything is already intelligent, allow transients to
come and go, they are more intelligent than what the ‘I’ thought.
Experience the full presence of all transients.
(12:14 AM) Thusness:
(12:14 AM) Thusness: u know what that means?
(12:15 AM) AEN: guess so
(12:16 AM) Thusness: that is one spontaneity, one flow.
(12:16 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:16 AM) Thusness: can u link it?
(12:16 AM) AEN: pls check if i post this correctly: http://now-for-you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=27701#27701
(12:17 AM) Thusness: no
(12:17 AM) Thusness: is what he said a logical deduction
(12:17 AM) Thusness: or a direct experience
(12:17 AM) AEN: orhh okok
(12:17 AM) AEN: then how do i quote urs
(12:17 AM) Thusness: say yes and quote what i said
(12:17 AM) Thusness: but is what he said a logical deduction or direct experience?
(12:18 AM) AEN: huh wat u mean say yes
(12:18 AM) Thusness: yes means what he said is true!
(12:18 AM) AEN: orh okok
(12:18 AM) Thusness: but is that a direct experience or logical deduction?
(12:18 AM) Thusness: kok ur head
(12:19 AM) AEN: okie
(12:19 AM) AEN: then after that i quote ur post
(12:19 AM) AEN: then after that remain unchanged rite (the nail part)
(12:19 AM) Thusness: yes
(12:19 AM) AEN: okie
(12:19 AM) AEN: ok updated go check again
(12:19 AM) Thusness: u must lead him till u can post the part by buddhaghosa
(12:19 AM) AEN: *again
(12:19 AM) AEN: i lead him?
(12:19 AM) AEN: u lead him wot
(12:19 AM) AEN: lol
(12:20 AM) Thusness: no need
(12:20 AM) Thusness: if his yuan is there, he will know.
(12:20 AM) Thusness: what u have to do is to do with sincerity.
(12:20 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:20 AM) Thusness: pray truly that he can see.
(12:20 AM) AEN: ok
(12:20 AM) Thusness: the no thinker part.
(12:21 AM) Thusness: put in all ur effort sincerely.
(12:21 AM) AEN: put effort to?
(12:21 AM) Thusness: though u do not know, put in all effort to help him
(12:21 AM) AEN: orh ok
(12:21 AM) Thusness: the conditions are already there.
(12:21 AM) AEN: y u dowan to help him directly.. lol
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(12:21 AM) Thusness: that stanza is very important for him.
(12:21 AM) AEN: oic
(12:21 AM) Thusness: simple
(12:22 AM) Thusness: coz u do not have enough merit to gain enlightenment
(12:22 AM) AEN: har really ah
(12:22 AM) AEN: lol
(12:22 AM) Thusness: u think i lie to u ah
(12:22 AM) AEN: enlightenment need 'merit' one meh
(12:22 AM) AEN: merit comes from enlightenment wot
(12:22 AM) AEN: lol
(12:22 AM) Thusness: then u don't do it
(12:22 AM) AEN: huh
(12:22 AM) AEN: no lah
(12:22 AM) Thusness: just do what i said
(12:23 AM) AEN: i mean enlightenment really need merit ah
(12:23 AM) Thusness: u know too lil for me to explain
(12:23 AM) Thusness: and don't joke when u do not know.
(12:23 AM) AEN: oic
(12:23 AM) Thusness: i told u once b4
(12:23 AM) Thusness: about bohiruci
(12:23 AM) Thusness: u asked me about him.
(12:24 AM) Thusness: i told u when u sincerely lead one, u will gain merit beyond ur imagination.
(12:24 AM) Thusness: when u joke, u lost all.
(12:24 AM) Thusness: coz there is no sincerity
(12:24 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:24 AM) Thusness: so don't do things out of ignorance.
(12:24 AM) AEN: icic
(12:24 AM) AEN: but he wasnt joking rite
(12:24 AM) AEN: i cant remember wot he post liao
(12:24 AM) Thusness: no
(12:24 AM) Thusness: i mean u
(12:24 AM) AEN: orh okok
(12:25 AM) AEN: but exactly how does merit affect enlightenment
(12:25 AM) Thusness: if amadeus gain insight because of ur indirect help, it is important for u.
(12:25 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:25 AM) Thusness: how do i know, i only experience.
(12:25 AM) Thusness: anyway don't ask
(12:25 AM) AEN: oic
(12:25 AM) Thusness: whatever said is gone
(12:26 AM) AEN: u mean from ur experience by helping ppl u gain more insights?
(12:26 AM) AEN: icic
(12:26 AM) Thusness: actually when i said to u is already wrong
(12:26 AM) Thusness: ai...
(12:26 AM) AEN: oic how come
(12:26 AM) Thusness: coz there is already the intention
(12:26 AM) AEN: intention to do what
(12:26 AM) Thusness: nothing lah
(12:26 AM) AEN: oic
(12:28 AM) Thusness: next time don't ask about such thing
(12:28 AM) AEN: u mean when doing merit shld not have the intention to do merit isit
(12:29 AM) AEN: ok
(12:30
AM) Thusness: whatever that is done, as long as u do it with sincerity
without ego, and if that one gain the insight, be happy.
(12:30 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:31 AM) Thusness: sincerity is most important.
(12:31 AM) Thusness: when u do not know, that is the best.
(12:31 AM) AEN: do not know about merits and stuff?
(12:31 AM) Thusness: yeah
(12:31 AM) AEN: icic but even if i know i also will be sincere la
(12:31 AM) Thusness: coz u r dealing with at the conscious level.
(12:32 AM) Thusness: just be sincere.
(12:32 AM) AEN: oic
(12:35 AM) Thusness: rem what i told u about the stanza.
(12:35 AM) AEN: buddhaghosa?
(12:35 AM) AEN: yea
(12:35 AM) Thusness: u must make until he damn gan tong (touched) to take that stanza seriously...lol
(12:35 AM) Thusness: see ur kong fu
(12:35 AM) Thusness:
(12:36 AM) AEN: wahahahah
(12:36 AM) AEN: but not i write mah.. u write wot
(12:36 AM) Thusness: i can tell u the missing link and what is important for the break through.
(12:36 AM) AEN: icic
(12:36 AM) Thusness: but if u can bring him to take that stanza seriously, then sut sut no laugh.
(12:36 AM) AEN: haha icic..
(12:40 AM) Thusness: give u some advises:
(12:41 AM) Thusness: seek not a waveless ocean but realise that both the wave and ocean have the same nature.
(12:42
AM) Thusness: first it is taught to observe the gap between 2 moments
of thought, later the isness nature of the transient between 2 moments
of gap must be experienced too.
(12:42 AM) Thusness: ehehhee
(12:42 AM) Thusness: see how u can use it and experience it.
(12:42 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:42 AM) AEN: okie
(12:46 AM) Thusness: hope his yuan is there...heehhe
(12:46 AM) Thusness: even u kena whack also good.
(12:47 AM) AEN: by other nowbies? lol
(12:47 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:47 AM) Thusness: i got to go now... ^sleep
(12:47 AM) AEN: ok gd nite
(12:47 AM) Thusness: nite
(12:48 AM) Thusness is now Offline
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Session Start: Thursday, 10 December, 2009
(6:17
AM) Thusness: That was so many years back but it is to tell him to
strip of the 'i' from 'I Amness' in order to experience impersonality.
But it is clear in that post. How come u look so far back into simpo's
forum? Anyway that is not abt buddhism
(6:18 AM) AEN: oic..
(6:25 AM) AEN: dunnu i was just reminded of the post haha
(8:27 PM) Thusness: I mean that post wasn't clear. . But it brought out the importance of impersonality
. But it brought out the importance of impersonality(8:27 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:06
AM) AEN: just now i listened to a talk by sailor bob adamson. he doesnt
talk about concepts as contradicting nondual, but he talks about the
one essence 'vibrating' into various pattern energies including all
phenomena and thoughts, and there is no duality of seer-seen,
thinker-thought, feeler-feeling, just everything as a natural
spontaneous happening like no entity 'me' is spinning the earth,
everything is just happening without a self entity behind it
(1:06 AM) Thusness: if that is the case, then anatta would not be a dharma seal.
(1:06 AM) AEN: oic
(1:07 AM) Thusness: yeah what sailor bob is saying is impersonality
and yet having the experience of non-dual
(1:07 AM) AEN: icic..
(1:07 AM) Thusness: means he experienced impersonality and non-dual
both are 2 very different experience
(1:08 AM) Thusness: but must integrate to further refine ur insight of ur luminous essence
(1:09 AM) Thusness: if in thinking there is always only thoughts, then non-dual is already implied
(1:10 AM) Thusness: so only in a moment of recall, that is, one moment recalling a previous moment, a thinker appears to exist
(1:10 AM) AEN: a thing appears to exist u mean?
(1:10 AM) Thusness: then there is appearance of duality
(1:11 AM) Thusness: a thinker
(1:11 AM) AEN: oic
(1:11 AM) Thusness: but in reality, there is no duality
(1:11 AM) Thusness: duality is an appearance in experiential reality
it is due to ignorance that duality exist
(1:12 AM) Thusness: however when insight of anatta has not arisen, non-dual is treated as a stage
(1:12 AM) AEN: btw kenneth folk still sees non dual as stage like rather than insight rite?
(1:12 AM) Thusness: yes
(1:12 AM) AEN: sounds like the 3rd gear is a state of abidance
icic
(1:12 AM) Thusness: u must at later phase learn dropping
(1:12 AM) AEN: oic
(1:13 AM) Thusness: it is also ok to enter into a state of oblivion
(1:13 AM) Thusness: it will help u counter the attachment of presence
(1:14 AM) AEN: icic..
(1:14 AM) AEN: wont i just fall asleep
(1:14 AM) Thusness: for this purpose, it is okie.
everything also got good and bad lah
(1:14 AM) Thusness: lol
in this case, it helps u overcome the attachment of presence
(1:15 AM) Thusness: it can help u refine ur understanding of DO later too.
(1:15 AM) Thusness: to understand DO, u must first need to directly experience anatta
(1:16 AM) Thusness: until u so clearly see things as a process without inherent existence.
this is a very important insight and experience
it must be stabilized
(1:16 AM) Thusness: otherwise u will not be able to understand emptiness
(1:16 AM) Thusness: then u will get stuck in stage 4..
that is u felt presence till the stage of non-dual and got stuck there.
(1:17 AM) AEN: oic..
(1:17 AM) Thusness: u feel like an entity due to dualistic and inherent thinking
(1:17 AM) AEN: sailor bob adamson sounds like he's talking about anatta in some way. i dun think he sees non dual as stage also?
oic
(1:18 AM) Thusness: yeah
(1:18 AM) Thusness: but his views cannot sync seamlessly with his experience yet
(1:18 AM) AEN: oic..
(1:19
AM) Thusness: what a practitioner must understand is this very moment,
this so clear, so vivid non-dual presence, is a formation, a process
(1:19 AM) Thusness: if that sense of 'Self', of metaphysical essence, is still there, then the subtle mark is still there
(1:21
AM) Thusness: if one see reality as vivid presence but rainbow like,
like illusion but not illusion, then the practitioner is almost there
liao
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(1:21 AM) Thusness: advaita and buddhism differs only in views
not in experience
(1:22 AM) AEN: icic..
(1:23
AM) AEN: sailor bob seems to talk about this... he talks about presence
awareness vibrating as all the mirage like appearance, and they are all
presence awareness.
Bob:
Yes. It is madness. The intelligence-energy vibrates into the mirage,
too. The heat shimmering off the road appears to be a pool of water. But
what is it in actuality?
Q: Just vibrating energy.
Bob: Yes.
(1:23
AM) Thusness: so u will see advaita practitioners describe their
non-dual experience like non-dual but somehow their understanding is
still dualistic
(1:23 AM) AEN: but he also use terms like 'one essence' though appearing as everything
icic.
(1:24 AM) Thusness: their non-dual experience like anatta but somehow their understanding is dual
(1:24 AM) AEN: oic..
(1:25 AM) Thusness: because their view isn't clear
(1:25 AM) Thusness: that is why right view is very important
(1:25 AM) AEN: icic..
(1:25 AM) Thusness: DO is not about creation
(1:25 AM) Thusness: is about dependent origination
nothing is created or destroyed
(1:26 AM) Thusness: so we must know DO correctly
(1:26 AM) AEN: oic..
(1:27 AM) Thusness: u look at redness, is it there?
it is so real, but is it there?
(1:27 AM) Thusness: see...look at it....vivid presence, clear
but is it 'there'?
DO
(1:28 AM) Thusness: u must dissolve this inherent knot
(1:28
AM) AEN: so its like a dream... within the dream we feel that the dream
is v real and truly there but when we wake up, its not it never was
there at all, just an appearance
*its like it
(1:28 AM) Thusness: it is still as 'real' as it is, for reality is so.
(1:29 AM) AEN: icic
(1:29 AM) Thusness: dream-like is reality
it appears so real
(1:29 AM) Thusness: this is the truth of dream-like
luminous
very luminous and present
but empty
(1:30 AM) Thusness: get it?
(1:30 AM) AEN: icic..
(1:30 AM) Thusness: but due to dualistic thinking, we are not understanding it correctly
we 'treat' is as inherently there
(1:31 AM) Thusness: if u deny the luminous aspect
if u deny the presence
then u r also deluded
(1:31 AM) Thusness: u must experience the full vivid presence
that is why I AMness is important
(1:31 AM) Thusness: but understand its nature is empty
(1:32
AM) AEN: i feel that presence is naturally and spontaneously 'here'
already... it feels inherent in the sense that it does not require any
kind of contrivance and effort, it is what is naturally here. what do u
think
(1:32 AM) Thusness: i told u that advaita do not lack the experience of luminosity
not yet
(1:33 AM) AEN: icic
but is that an inherent view?
(1:33 AM) Thusness: nope
(1:33 AM) AEN: icic
(1:33 AM) Thusness: not about emptiness
it is about the luminous nature
(1:34 AM) Thusness: u need to understand that even up to the phase of non-dual, is still not anatta and DO
(1:34 AM) Thusness: so u must further refine ur so called 'advaita vedanta' experiences
(1:34 AM) AEN: oic
(1:35 AM) Thusness: but learn to drop
mind body and presence
at night learn how to drop
(1:35 AM) Thusness: morning and after, practice vivid, non dual awareness
(1:35 AM) AEN: icic..
(1:35 AM) Thusness: u met up with ur lzls?
(1:37 AM) Thusness: now got 9 followers
lol
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Session Start: Saturday, July 19, 2008
(10:54 PM) AEN: hi
(10:54 PM) AEN: AEN said:
nowadays
so busy v hard to find time to meditate, and even if i try to meditate
i'll fall asleep cos din sleep enough... today i meditate more like 45
min and realise it tink quite a long time to even be able to calm down
and thoughtless... tink i need to meditate more otherwise i cant even
overcome the mental conditioning
AEN said:
also
i wonder how to keep calm/thoughtless in v busy life, cos even if u
pause for a while i dun tink its enough (at least for me) to reach
thoughtlessness, maybe have to meditate more frequently then it becomes
natural?
(10:55 PM) AEN: got receive my msg?
(12:23 AM) Thusness:
(12:23 AM) Thusness: u will not understand now.
(12:23 AM) Thusness: this fundamental change will come only after some experiences
(12:23 AM) Thusness: and a willingness to let go of any holdings.
(12:24 AM) Thusness: sitting for 45mins is itself already an achievement...go slow and not to aim for anything
(12:24 AM) Thusness: rather accept everything, all thoughts, all emotions...
(12:38 AM) Thusness: actually it is all related to a fundamental change in view.
(12:44 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:07
AM) Thusness: what sailor bob adamson wrote is quite good...however
without totally going through emptiness view, non-dual luminosity will
not be fully experienced.
(12:07 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:08 AM) Thusness: the subtle trace of dualistic view is still there but worth reading.
(12:08 AM) Thusness: it is the sort of anatta experience.
(12:09 AM) AEN: icic.. wat subtle trace of dualistic view
(12:09 AM) AEN: btw jonls wrote b4, the intelligence that grows nails, etc
(12:09 AM) AEN: ?
(12:09 AM) Thusness: but not after the purification of emptiness view.
(12:10 AM) AEN: oic
(12:11 AM) Thusness: the life force that grows nails even Eck Tolle can also derive this.
(12:11 AM) AEN: is this the stage 4 of nondual: "
4.
Only one tremendous spontaneous clarity flows, there is no
differentiation between what that spins the earth or what that pumps
your heart beats or what that makes the plants grow. When you eat an
apple, it is the entire universe that eats the apple. Just one whole
clarity spontaneity flow. Continual experience of transcendence joy and
bliss."
(12:11 AM) AEN: *oic
(12:12 AM) Thusness: it is how thorough the experience is.
(12:13 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:13 AM) AEN: u say even casino king have that sort of experience rite?
(12:13 AM) Thusness: even at the stage of 'I M', they can hv the same realisation.
(12:13 AM) Thusness: Yes.
(12:13 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:14 AM) Thusness: But that realisation is far from knowing the nature of consciousness
(12:15 AM) Thusness: Emptiness is not a view.
(12:15 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:15 AM) AEN: not a view?
(12:16 AM) Thusness: it is merely a raft that serve as an antidote of our dualistic view.
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Radiant Anatta Right now have you overcome all metaphysical and essence view?
How do you relate your experiences and view with https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../beyond-awareness.html
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Beyond Awareness: reflections on identity and awareness
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2006:
[23:15]
<^john^> casino_king on one hand doesn't dare to tell ppl his
experience, on the other hand no really sure of his experience and
wanted authentication, then come out funny stuff.
[23:15] <Pres`out> what kind of experience he has..
[23:15] <Pres`out> like wat u said just now ?
[23:16] <^john^> with his age, slowly slowly practice can liao.
[23:16] <^john^> told u earlier liao what
[23:16] <Pres`out> ya okie
[23:16]
<^john^> The living force that gives life, that makes things
grow, that heals...that is partially experience, partially thought.
....
[00:52] <Pres`out> actually i still dun get it... casino king has sort of a special experience?
[00:52] <Pres`out> but isnt it just will/thought?
[00:52] <Pres`out> wats so special about it
[00:53] <^john^> his level of understanding still not there.
[00:53] <Pres`out> not where?
[00:54] <^john^> actually not anywhere near.
[00:54] <Pres`out> oic
[00:54] <Pres`out> then wat exactly has he experienced
[00:55] <^john^> he really experience it as an impersonal living force in him
[00:55] <^john^> but no clarity
[00:55] <Pres`out> God?
[00:55] <Pres`out> oic
[00:55] <Pres`out> experience of Presence?
[00:55] <^john^> no lah
[00:55] <Pres`out> then
[00:55] <^john^> not yet
[00:55] <Pres`out> icic
[00:56] <Pres`out> what is impersonal living force.. u said will/thought isnt it something everyone has?
[00:57] <^john^> just like consciousness is what everyone has, he experiences it as living force.
[00:57] <^john^> in him
[00:57] <Pres`out> oic..
[00:57] <Pres`out> it is an experience from? meditation?
[00:57] <^john^> some touches the core and the luminosity aspect
[00:57] <^john^> some touches the nature of that reality
[00:57] <^john^> some both
[00:57] <Pres`out> icic
[00:57] <Pres`out> then he?
[00:58] <^john^> his is more of a small attribute
[00:58] <^john^> minor attribute
[00:58] <Pres`out> oic
[00:58] <Pres`out> belongs to which category?
[00:58] <Pres`out> luminosity?
[00:58] <^john^> dunno leh
[00:58] <Pres`out> huh
[00:58] <Pres`out> lol
[00:58] <Pres`out> icic
[00:58] <^john^> dunno how to categorize
[00:58] <^john^>
[00:58] <Pres`out> icic
[00:59] <^john^> his urge to test out the living force to heal
[00:59] <Pres`out> where did he mention that?
[00:59] <^john^> never lah
[00:59] <Pres`out> then how do u know
[01:00] <^john^> his last post can see part of his inner feeling of that urge.
[01:00] <^john^>
[01:00] <Pres`out> oic.. which post
[01:00] <^john^> in the Is God something
[01:00] <^john^> the latest one
[01:00] <Pres`out> oic..
[01:01] <^john^> It can really be meaningful to me , then it will not be in my power to tell it.
[01:01]
<^john^> You see , this ability to see means god will not grant
me any power to change the future or reveal it to anyone who can believe
it.
[01:01] <^john^> so fast manifested into the forum liao.
[01:01] <Pres`out> ??
[01:01] <Pres`out> where?
[01:02] <Pres`out> that one from NotFromVenus
[01:02] <^john^> yes
[01:02] <Pres`out> what is 'so fast manifested in forum'
[01:03] <^john^> meaningful to me is his inner urge
[01:03] <Pres`out> now u referring to casino king or notfromvenus
[01:03] <^john^> god will not grant him any power to change
[01:03] <^john^> casino king
[01:03] <Pres`out> oic
[01:03] <^john^> god will not grant him any power to change the future
[01:04] <Pres`out> icic
[01:04] <^john^> it is his this strong inner urge that will give him problem.
[01:04] <Pres`out> what kind
[01:05] <Pres`out> u wan to post something there
[01:05] <Pres`out> ?
[01:05] <^john^> nope...
[01:05] <Pres`out> ok
[01:05] <Pres`out> wat kind of prob
[01:05] <^john^> it is good for him, he must suffer to eliminate.
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2006:
Like I said, you are trying to avoid the difficult questions.
Does Buddhism say anything about what is REAL?
(10:12 PM) John: what is real is becoming.
(10:13 PM) John: sinweiy replied....added additional condition
(10:14 PM) John: he must struggle till sincerity arise
(10:14 PM) AEN: added additional condition?
(10:14 PM) John: casino_king's mind must be led to silence
(10:15 PM) John: knowledge will only confused him further.
(10:15 PM) AEN: oic
(10:15 PM) John: otherwise why u wouldn't have told him to empty all that he has learnt
(10:16 PM) AEN: oic
(10:17 PM) John: the understanding of the "spirit", the living force within must come to the challenge
(10:18 PM) John: to fully understand what that is being experienced, let him say out this experience first...
(10:18 PM) John: this life force that is working within him.
(10:18 PM) John: it is so real.
(10:18 PM) John: full of life.
(10:19 PM) John: it is his entire beingness
(10:19 PM) John: he must bring it out...
(10:19 PM) AEN: icic...
(10:19 PM) John: and be sincere and humble.
(10:19 PM) AEN: oic
(10:20 PM) John: Only a genuine heart can attract genuine answers.
(10:20 PM) John: I hope he can reach this point.
(10:21 PM) John: and let longchen lead him towards deeper understanding
(10:22 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:22 PM) AEN: then u leh?
(10:23 PM) AEN: as in lead him towards deeper understanding
(10:23 PM) AEN: haha
(10:23 PM) John: u lead him.
(10:23 PM) AEN: oh i lead him with ur words
(10:23 PM) AEN: hahaha
(10:23 PM) John: with those that i have told u, it is sufficent.
(10:24 PM) AEN: oic
(10:25 PM) John: seeds can be planted but there is no fruition, it can take many years
(10:26 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:29 PM) John: what is the difference between "no individuality and impersonality" and the way Buddhaghosa describe no-self?
(10:30
PM) AEN: no individuality refers to the mind realm ceasing of
self-perception but does not speak of the presence of fusing into
everything
(10:30 PM) AEN: ?
(10:31 PM) John: not bad. I will add a lil more.
I will add a lil more.(10:31 PM) AEN: ok
(10:32 PM) John: the idea of process, change isn't inside
(10:33 PM) John: and how non-dual is understood as a flow, that in actuality there is no 'entity', only flow
(10:33 PM) John: means there is no nouns but always verbs
(10:33 PM) John: and how non-dual is linked to it
(10:33 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:35
PM) John: the misconception and individuality is of taking a process
and 'identifying' it as an 'entity' through confusion of language and
symbolic structures
(10:35 PM) AEN: icic
(10:36
PM) John: when one tries to losing individuality and say that
consciousness is impersonal, there is just a snap shot of the
experience....it is not a form of thorough understanding or a deep
insight of the truth.
(10:37 PM) AEN: oic
(10:38 PM) John: so true non-dual must come from such insight as described in Buddhaghosa poem.
(10:38 PM) AEN: icic
(10:39
PM) John: i spoke many times about non-dual and said even one has
entered non-dual does not necessary understand anatta and emptiness,
this is what i meant.
(10:39 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:40 PM) John: otherwise it remains as a stage that can be entered and exit.
(10:40 PM) AEN: icic
(10:40 PM) John: instead of a gateless gate
(10:40 PM) AEN: oic
(10:41 PM) John: u see the diff?
(10:41 PM) AEN: ya
(10:42 PM) John: so u understand why pure consciousness is not really a correct description eh?
(10:42 PM) AEN: ya
(10:42 PM) John: like the blessed one described, it is named after its condition and organs
(10:42 PM) AEN: oic
(10:43 PM) John: until the entire trace of self subsides, one begin to experience emptiness
(10:43 PM) AEN: icic
(10:43 PM) John: if the self does not subside, we will not understand why there isn't entry and exit.
(10:44 PM) AEN: oic
(10:44 PM) John: consciousness is wherever conditions and causes are.
(10:45 PM) AEN: icic
(10:45 PM) John: how could a 'Self' understand and experience such profound experience.
(10:45 PM) AEN: oic
(10:45
PM) John: though it is mentioned by ur master chen ming an, the true
experience is not that easy to understand...there are different depth
and no ending to it.
(10:46 PM) AEN: icic
(10:46 PM) John: it all links to the degree of clarity
(10:46 PM) John: the miraculous manifestation is not easily understood.
(10:46 PM) AEN: oic
(10:47 PM) John: and the depth of experience is beyond explanation and has no bottom.
(10:47 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:49
PM) John: what i told u is just the beginning, when one thought that he
has fully experienced emptiness, immediately he is misled by his own
experience.
(10:50 PM) AEN: oic
(10:50 PM) AEN: how come
(10:50 PM) John: it is difficult to tell u in words.
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Soh Wei Yu
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(11:23
PM) John: because i also realised that even when one is deep into the
practice of mindfulness, one need not experience our pristine awareness
(11:23 PM) AEN: oic
(11:24 PM) AEN: ya and some ppl who never cultivated anything can become enlightened after hearing some sutra verse
(11:24 PM) AEN: lol
(11:24
PM) John: or see that our pristine awareness is everything and there is
really nothing else. It is the only reality. There is absolutely no
one in between.
(11:24 PM) John:
(11:24 PM) AEN: icic
(11:24 PM) AEN: when chuang tzu said tao is everywhere, is his understanding different?
(11:25 PM) John: hm...a lil different.
(11:25 PM) John: there is another experience when no-self is experience...that is the vitality aspect
(11:26 PM) John: that is the experience of life giver presence everywhere
(11:26 PM) AEN: oic.
(11:26 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:26 PM) AEN: like casino king like that?
(11:26 PM) AEN: then chuang tzu is something like tat also?
(11:26 PM) John: that connect us to everything
(11:26 PM) AEN: oic
(11:27
PM) John: when we experience anatta to a very deep state, luminosity
and vitality through emptiness nature is experienced as one.
(11:27 PM) AEN: oic
(11:28 PM) John: zhuang zhi is not keen in expressing luminosity aspect but rather how the tao is expressed in its profundity.
(11:28 PM) AEN: huh?
(11:28 PM) AEN: oh but last time u say chuang tzu emphasize on 'non-doing until luminosity is clear'?
(11:29 PM) John: i do not like to tok about "I AM"
(11:29 PM) John: but "I AM" is a very important state.
(11:29 PM) AEN: icic
(11:29 PM) John: however i tok about no-self and emptiness and our pristine awareness...
(11:29 PM) John: most of the time the happening, nothing about the source...
(11:30 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:30 PM) John: and the spontaneous arising later as the expression of luminosity and vitality
(11:30 PM) John: but never the 'self' or 'i' or anything.
(11:30 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:31
PM) John: only for the explanation we spoke of the Self' when comparing
to the tathagatagarbatha sutra and vedanta teachings.
(11:31 PM) John: similarly Tao Te Jing is also the same....
(11:31 PM) AEN: oic
(11:31 PM) John: just the expression of Tao
(11:31 PM) John: the Self-So
(11:31 PM) John: the naturalness
(11:31 PM) John: the non action
(11:31 PM) John: the depth
(11:32 PM) John: never the who or where or what
(11:32 PM) John: this is how lao tze express it...just the way
(11:32 PM) AEN: icic...
(11:33 PM) John: Lao-Tse never tok about self realization
(11:33 PM) John: only taoist in the later years
(11:34 PM) AEN: oic
(11:34 PM) John: when they got affected by buddhism
(11:34 PM) John: seeing our nature to equate it with tao.
(11:34 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:35 PM) John: however for one that already attained, one can speak from the Tao level penetrating heaven, human and earth
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Soh Wei Yu
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Anatta requires this insight http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../no-nouns-are...
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
No nouns are necessary to initiate verbs
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Mr. AG
Top contributor
Radiant
Anatta you are right, there is force born from ignorance, but it's not
"a will", it's just a force, or more accurately, unrelated moments of
force.
when there is no more ignorance, no more force , there are no more phenomenon, no more displays.
when
you call it "a will", you are taking together all the tiny different
moments of this force which is not even of "Ignorance" it's of 10000000
different moments of different ignorances, and then you calling it “a
will” makes it seem like it's somehow 1 agent, when it's not. this is
delusion.
you
are doing good, you are chasing the "agent / will " down the rabbit
hole further and further. just keep going and keep seeing everything you
try and make "the will / the agent / the delusion" is not a "the" it's
also dependently originated unrelated moments
Yin Ling
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Haha. Why do you name yourself radiant anatta but crave for a “thing”, an “inherent existence” to kickstart everything? 
Soh Wei Yu
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Top contributor
I wrote like a decade ago:
Vast Impersonal Intelligence
I had an intense peak experience recently, which I revisited some aspects of my previous realizations/experience.
There
is a vast impersonal natural intelligence which is living you, or
rather, it IS this life, this breathing, this walking, this drinking...
this life of the universe, of the earth spinning, .... all an
interconnected play of Dharma, of total life, intelligence, and
awareness. The only blockage is simply this sense of an 'I', someone who
controls will and dictates actions in life.
If
you think that I am sounding like an advocate of 'God', I have to
reiterate that this so called 'God' or intelligent Mind is empty of its
own existence apart from Dharma, is not something changeless and
independent, and is not some sort of source acting behind the scenes or
pulling the strings. Because this vast impersonal intelligence is so
magnificent, powerful and impersonal, it can give the impression that we
are all just the dream or expression of a Universal Mind of God, and if
we follow this 'personification' and 'reification' we may start to
think whether we are living in a matrix, a dream of Shiva for no other
reason than his own enjoyment. But we are not the play or lila of a
Brahman, there is no need to personify or reify this at all. This
intelligence IS the miracle of manifestation. The divine has no face of
its own, and yet every face is the face of divinity. There is no I, no
perceiver, or a controller of this spontaneous intelligent happening.
Living this is living in complete ecstasy and joy born of this total
intelligence, life and clarity.
I just found something by Daniel Ingram which pretty much describes it nicely:
"Thus,
sensations of effort are just sensations of effort, but imply no
fundamental split off entity that is making this effort. It is just a
natural product of the interdependent universe. Just so, the sense of a
will is replaced with a mysterious sense of absolutely natural causality
and a natural, creative “intelligence” that operates in all of this,
though the sensations that make up the sense of will continue as before.
This is what is meant in the teachings of the twelve links of dependent
origination when it says, “With the complete cessation of [fundamental]
ignorance, volitional formations cease.” Similarly, sensations of
intimacy are just sensations of intimacy and simply imply proximity
rather than a separate self. Those of third path know this to some
degree, and those of second path can look into this to try to attain the
understanding of third path. Arahats have fully understood this."
(note: his definition of 'Arahat' is different from the suttas definition)
Also
in moments of peak experience, I see we have to overcome the habitual
tendencies of distracted thoughts... means we must be able to completely
silent our mind and be able to have no thoughts at all to fully
experience the fullness and presence of our six senses without a single
trace of thought or sense of self... the trees, the sky, the breeze,
everything in its complete intensity without thoughts. I'm not saying
thought must be stopped at all moments, but like Eckhart Tolle said,
after awakening 90% of his (unnecessary) thoughts just disappeared and
thats what make a difference to his life. Without this we will not be
able to feel the intensity of total Presence. So meditate and do yoga.
Realization alone is insufficient without shamatha. Yes, you can
experience anatta even when there are wandering thoughts because it is
always already so, but one can never fully appreciate the Presence,
total life, intelligence and awareness... it is a whole different level.
In other words: thoughts are ok, but you must have 'mastery' over them. Means unnecessary thoughts do not arise.
Labels: Anatta, Impersonality, Luminosity, Spontaneous Presence |
