Showing posts with label Angelo Gerangelo. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Angelo Gerangelo. Show all posts

 Soh Wei Yu shared a post.

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Pointers by Angelo Grr for those contemplating self-enquiry to realize the I AM.

https://www.facebook.com/Simply.Always.Awake/posts/pfbid02kwUZ1CrCG45zdjcqdCu2VyGW2rHkitWWX44PQCFCtC8YE1nvaoFThnHDfyT6zPjrl?__cft__[0]=AZWB-n5gfMOxp9ExlV4MAASn1f52sB9lQL8zoUKegHMep95h7-ohCmpkmBw5Ip5duEIuJnsTwwJqEx0u5PmyuHu6mXnfua6PgNONi__vLTCxSKY8UaP29j-QHFbtdlO6FxtntbE6I94Wa_NUEsW5HMdP2wA2BMIuWrBQ4AyjTFdp2BcdB6q1Z9KcECcwF1py82I&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R

Inquiry for First Awakening

The inquiry that leads to first awakening is a funny thing.  We want to know “how” precisely to do that inquiry, which is completely understandable.  The thing is that it’s not wholly conveyable by describing a certain technique.  Really it’s a matter of finding that sweet spot where surrender and intention meet.  I will describe an approach here, but it’s important to keep in mind that in the end, you don’t have the power (as what you take yourself to be) to wake yourself up.  Only Life has that power.  So as we give ourselves to a certain inquiry or practice it’s imperative that we remain open.  We have to keep the portals open to mystery, and possibility.  We have to recognize that the constant concluding that “no this isn’t it, no this isn’t it either...” is simply the activity of the mind.  Those are thoughts.  If we believe a single thought then we will believe the next one and on and on.  If however we recognize that, “oh that doubt is simply a thought arising now,” then we have the opportunity to recognize that that thought will subside on its own... and yet “I” as the knower of that thought am still here!  We can now become fascinated with what is here once that thought (or any thought) subsides.  What is in this gap between thoughts?  What is this pure sense of I, pure sense of knowing, pure sense of Being?  What is this light that can shine on and illuminate a thought (as it does thousands of times per day), and yet still shines when no thought is present.  It is self illuminating.  What is the nature of the one that notices thoughts, is awake and aware before, during, and after a thought, and is not altered in any way by any thought?  Please understand that when you ask these questions you are not looking for a thought answer, the answer is the experience itself.

When we start to allow our attention to relax into this wider perspective we start to unbind ourselves from thought.  We begin to recognize the nature of unbound consciousness by feel, by instinct.  This is the way in.

At first we may conclude that this gap, this thoughtless consciousness is uninteresting, unimportant.  It feels quite neutral, and the busy mind can’t do anything with neutral so we might be inclined to purposely engage thoughts again.  If we recognize that “not interesting, not important, not valuable” are all thoughts and simply return to this fluid consciousness, it will start to expand.  But there is no need to think about expansion or watch for it.  It will do this naturally if we stay with it.   If you are willing to recognize every thought and image in the mind as such, and keep your attention alert but relaxed into the “stuff” of thought that is continuous with the sense of I, it will all take care of itself.  Just be willing to suspend judgement.  Be willing to forego conclusions.  Be willing to let go of all monitoring of your progress, because these are all thoughts.  Be open to the pure experience.  Just return again and again to this place of consciousness with no object or pure sense of I Am.  If you are willing to do this it will teach itself to you in a way that neither I nor anyone I’ve ever seen can explain, but it is more real than real.

Happy Travels.

Art by: Platon Yurich

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Inquiry for First Awakening 

The inquiry that leads to first awakening is a funny thing.  We want to know “how” precisely to do that inquiry, which is complete… See more

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Soh Wei Yu

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Yesterday someone told me he watched Angelo Grr's videos but it doesn't resonate because he is already post I AM (in fact post nondual and going into anatta) and most of the videos are talking about I AM. I told him I added Angelo's youtube channel to the reading list on my AtR blog, and he should check out the No-Self section in https://www.youtube.com/@SimplyAlwaysAwake/playlists

Basically the youtube videos are categorised, and you can find relevant videos for different phases of insights based on the playlist sections. Like Non-Duality is probably the nondual phase of insight, no-self is more on anatta, inquiry and consciousness I believe is more for I AM. There's something out there for everyone. Angelo Grr can clarify if I'm wrong.

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Angelo Grr

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Soh Wei Yu Exactly. I really tried to categorize things by playlist. Non-dual and no-self etc.

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Patryk Czarnecki shared a link.


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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaZhypCs4FU...

Angelo here puts some terms on final stage, as "unsettling" , and "unwantable". 

If you lose even the subtlest sense of self, the whole universe blinks out of existence. 

it's described as cessation, or samadhi. 

I think this stage is full anatta ?

but i wonder, especially in Advaita,  there's a claim, that final stage is just bliss ( or love).

Do you think Angelo is yet to recoginze it ?

is it final stage he's talking about? or some ( Buddha?) went even "further" ( if it makes sense).

Dr. Angelo Dilullo and Walter Chatting #nonduality #awakening

YOUTUBE.COM

Dr. Angelo Dilullo and Walter Chatting #nonduality #awakening

Hello everyone, my guest Today is Dr. Angelo DiLullo. Angelo is a practicing anesthesiologist and author of the book "Awake: It's Your Turn."Get Angelo's boo...

37 commentsYin Ling

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Angelo imo is very clear on two fold emptiness, the ultimate view and very in line with the Buddha’s teaching and also ATR way of guidance (not that it’s any different)

I also do not understand cessation that way, I don’t think Angelo does too. He can clarify 🙂

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Patryk Czarnecki

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Yin Ling Angelo Grr

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Diederik van der Boor

Every step in awakening feels like one has got the whole thing, but surprise, there is a deeper next phase to it. This journey is almost infinitely endless, so I wouldn't count too much on a specific final step.

From another teaching I follow I know there are steps beyond what Angelo describes, and yet reaching no-self is already quite unique. Not many get there, and stick with earlier phases. But one still has a life ahead of exploration 🙂

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Patryk Czarnecki

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Diederik van der Boor what teachings ?:)

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Diederik van der Boor

Patryk Czarnecki I'm a student of Ric Weinman from VortexHealing, and also like to broaden my view in the wider awakening community. Because its great to see different perspectives, or different ways of expressing those pointers and descriptions.

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Soh Wei Yu

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I haven’t watched the video. But bringing attention to Angelo Grr

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Patryk Czarnecki

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Soh Wei Yu meanwhile, what so you think ?

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Soh Wei Yu

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Patryk Czarnecki

I watched the video, almost completely.

I think you misunderstood. Angelo did not describe cessation or samadhi, or link it as anatta.

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Yin Ling

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Soh Wei Yu I just watched too, i was quite clueless about the question.

It was a very good interview actually. One of the best. Very relatable esp post awakening emotions.

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Soh Wei Yu

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Yin Ling

Yeah very good video

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Yin Ling

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Patryk Czarnecki

Mayb you want to tjmestamp it so we can hear the part where u r confused ?

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Soh Wei Yu

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Yin Ling

The only place I recall Angelo used the term samadhi is where he said nonduality is NOT samadhi or a meditative experience, it is just lack of separation (in every experience)

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Soh Wei Yu

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Patryk Czarnecki

What Angelo is describing is more related to different phases of insights, like how Thusness expressed in

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../thusnesss-six...

Another one that might interest you is http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../mistaken-reality-of...

After reading these two articles, you will have a better understanding.

Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

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Patryk Czarnecki

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Thank you!:)

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Soh Wei Yu

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On the topic of bliss and love, excerpts from http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-incredible...

Soh Wei Yu

Soh Wei Yu John Ahn said, "One thing you will notice is that the externalization of intention, which is all that anatta is, does not bring bliss or love. I asked thusness some years ago and he confirmed that himself."

I can say that this is patently false - Thusness describes it as "incredible bliss" and has never said it does not bring bliss. It is just obviously untrue, anyone who realised anatta and stabilized it will be able to experience great bliss.

2004:

[23:46] <^john^> Buddhism is nothing but replacing the 'Self' in Hinduism with Condition Arising.

[23:46] <^john^> Keep the clarity, the presence, the luminosity and eliminate The ultimate 'Self', the controller, the supreme.

[23:46] <^john^> Still u must taste, sense, eat, hear and see Pure Awareness in every authentication.

[23:46] <^john^> And every authentication is Bliss.

2006:

(6:09 PM) John: if longchen can stabilize [anatta] in 3 yrs time, he will be able to enter incredible bliss at will.

(6:09 PM) AEN: what incredible bliss

(6:10 PM) John: beyond description

(6:10 PM) AEN: oic

(6:10 PM) John: not a form of mundane samadhi

2008:

John Tan: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../direct-seal-of...

Great and wonderful insight!

Just a 2 cents from a PasserBy, nothing intense.

It is pointless to know the nature of mind is luminous and empty,

If there is no insight that this innate nature is the direct seal of Great Bliss.

After insight of anatta, emptiness and non-dual luminosity,

It is advisable not to retract to practices that made mind contrive.

Never underestimate this direct path of great ease,

Even aeons lives of practices cannot touch the depth of its profundity.

Deeply experience this luminous yet empty nature, its thorough effortlessness and spontaneity.

It is the heart of Mahamudra, the great art that simply be.

Deep bow and reverent to Naropa for this view concisely put and,

Homage to the ground, this natural state of Great Bliss.

Happy Journey!

2007:

"The ‘who’, ‘where’ and ‘when’, the ‘I’, ‘here’ and ‘now’ must ultimately give way to the experience of total transparency. Do not fall back to a source, just the manifestation is sufficient. This will become so clear that total transparency is experienced. When total transparency is stabilized, transcendental body is experienced and dharmakaya is seen everywhere. This is the samadhi bliss of Bodhisattva. This is the fruition of practice."

2005:

[15:49] <^john^> bliss is complete clarity.

[15:50] complete clarity?

[15:50] <^john^> when u experience the luminosity without boundary, joy will flow from all directions.

[15:50] <^john^> yes

[15:50] <^john^> 🙂

[15:50] if bliss is complete clarity, then why do we experience bliss without clarity also?

[15:50] <^john^> that is because it is not bliss. 😛

[15:51] then what is it?

[15:51] joy that is not bliss?

[15:52] <^john^> it is just a mental state that is created.

[15:53] icic...

[15:53] then is the bliss experienced through complete clarity, a mental state?

[15:53] <^john^> Pure awareness is nothing of that sort.

[15:53] <^john^> so how do we know?

[15:54] <^john^> 🙂

[15:54] bcos pure awareness is simply aware ?

[15:54] <^john^> and what is it like?

[15:55] dunnu

[15:55] <^john^> the greatest joy in absorption is?

[15:56] dunnu 😛

[15:56] <^john^> forgetting the 'self'.

[15:56] oic...

[15:57] <^john^> when object and subject becomes one.

[15:57] <^john^> but then there is no clarity.

[15:57] <^john^> the luminosity isn't there. 🙂

[15:57] then what is the clarity?

[15:58] <^john^> it is the Total Presence, Reality.

[15:58] <^john^> u know how a mirror reflect?

[15:58] the light reflects

[15:59] <^john^> when u feel, sense, taste, see without a layer

[16:00] <^john^> a layer of thought, belief, words, name, label..etc

[16:00] <^john^> without an 'I'

[16:00] <^john^> don't even think of it...

[16:00] <^john^> some will tell u it is like that.

2005:

[23:58] <^john^> pure awareness, clarity, presence...etc

[23:58] <^john^> thoughts, self, ego...etc

[23:58] <^john^> when there is too strong of 'ego', experience more suffering.

[23:58] <^john^> so is 'self'

[23:59] <^john^> when u experience everything as pure awareness, there is complete blissfulness

[23:59] <^john^> everything arising becomes bliss.

Direct Seal of Great Bliss

awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com

Direct Seal of Great Bliss

Direct Seal of Great Bliss

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Soh Wei Yu

Soh Wei Yu John Tan, 2007:

"Like samatha meditation, each jhana state represents a stage of bliss associated with certain level of concentration; the bliss experienced from insight into our nature differs.

The happiness and pleasure experience by a dualistic mind is different from that experienced by a practitioner. “I AMness” is a higher form of happiness as compared to a dualistic mind that continuously chatters. It is a level of bliss associated with a state of ‘transcendence’ – a state of bliss resulting from the experience of “formlessness, odorless, colorless, attributes and thoughtlessness’. No-self or non-dual is higher form of bliss resulted from the direct experience of Oneness and no-separation. It is related to the dropping of the ‘I’. When non-dual is free from perceptions, that bliss is a form transcendence-oneness. It is what I called transparency of non-duality."

The Incredible Bliss of Anatta

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

The Incredible Bliss of Anatta

The Incredible Bliss of Anatta

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Soh Wei Yu

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Soh Wei Yu 2006:

(6:01 PM) John: the bond is loosen to a great extend, the energy is released.

(6:02 PM) John: i said i almost floated. 😛

(6:02 PM) AEN: oo.. icic

(6:03 PM) John: but i did not write about other experiences...coz many of them in the forum, the mind aren't mature yet.

(6:03 PM) John: it is not really good to write about certain experiences

(6:04 PM) AEN: oic..

(6:04 PM) AEN: what kind of other experience?

(6:04 PM) John: and i do not want JonLS to experience it too until total transparency is stabilized.

(6:04 PM) AEN: oic

(6:04 PM) AEN: wat kind of experience

(6:04 PM) John: cannot tell.

(6:04 PM) AEN: hahaha

(6:04 PM) AEN: ok

(6:04 PM) John: just focus on the Bliss. 🙂

(6:04 PM) John: we will not want anything else.

(6:04 PM) AEN: oic..

(6:05 PM) John: in fact i refused to enter into it before fetters are cleared. 🙂

(6:05 PM) AEN: oic.. u mean.. bliss?

(6:05 PM) John: bliss of course must experience lah

(6:05 PM) John: lol

(6:05 PM) AEN: hahaha icic

(6:05 PM) John: the next step is to let him take this idea of 'bond' seriously.

(6:05 PM) AEN: icic..

(6:06 PM) John: coz many western spiritual masters tend to over emphasize luminosity

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Soh Wei Yu

Soh Wei Yu 2006:

(11:36 PM) Thusness: being open isn't that difficult so it's okie to educate.

(11:37 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:37 PM) Thusness: it is not like an intuitive experience

(11:37 PM) Thusness: esp non-duality and emptiness nature

(11:37 PM) Thusness: then the conditions must be there

(11:37 PM) Thusness: if not that there is no way one can understand it.

(11:38 PM) Thusness: after experiencing it, we will have no doubt

(11:38 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:38 PM) Thusness: and the experience of the joy and bliss will carry the practitioner forward

(11:38 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:41 PM) Thusness: wah...longchen like dharma protector like that. 😛

(11:41 PM) AEN: hahaha yea

(11:42 PM) Thusness: that is the faith that one has after direct experience.

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Soh Wei Yu

Soh Wei Yu 2007:

(11:31 PM) Thusness: there is a level of non-dual that longchen have not experienced yet

(11:31 PM) Thusness: it is the finer level of experience

(11:32 PM) Thusness: i call it a state of transparency

(11:32 PM) Thusness: i will always tell ppl to experience transparency

(11:32 PM) Thusness: and feel the bliss

(11:33 PM) Thusness: but they might not know what i meant

(11:33 PM) Thusness: only when the level of non-dual is up to a certain level then one will experience it

(11:34 PM) Thusness: after this then when one tok about DO and emptiness, then has a bit of weight.

(11:34 PM) Thusness: otherwise u may say all is spontaneous arising, but really it is karmic propensities in action.

(11:35 PM) Thusness: mistaken what that is mechanical and routineness for our boundless luminous nature that is miraculously spontaneous

(11:35 PM) Thusness: this we have to know

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Soh Wei Yu

Soh Wei Yu 2007:

(1:06 AM) Thusness: not that there is no understanding of One Reality

(1:07 AM) Thusness: there is but the depth differs.

(1:07 AM) Thusness: and the experience differs in depth when the emptiness nature is experienced.

(1:08 AM) Thusness: this has to do with the intensity of the 7 factors of enlightenment

(1:08 AM) Thusness: every intuitive experience will intensify these factors

(1:08 AM) Thusness: and experience different level of bliss and joy

(1:09 AM) AEN: oo icic

(1:09 AM) Thusness: when one is beyond the conceptual level

(1:10 AM) Thusness: the understanding becomes like a mixture of the factors of enlightenment

(1:10 AM) Thusness: it is these factors that creates the "knowing" as a form of fruition

(1:10 AM) Thusness: brightness, bliss, joy...etc

(1:11 AM) Thusness: clarity

(1:11 AM) Thusness: these are the form of "knowing" that one has

(1:11 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:14 AM) Thusness: there is no confusion, they are always these factors that bring the practitioner moves forward and understand more

(1:14 AM) Thusness: not because buddha said so, these factors are just there

(1:14 AM) Thusness: and one naturally knows he is in the correct path

(1:14 AM) Thusness: just like one felt the presence, he knows

(1:15 AM) Thusness: when one experience the Eternal Witness, the experience is so unique and clear that he knows

(1:15 AM) Thusness: but the experience is misinterpreted

(1:15 AM) Thusness: and lost

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Soh Wei Yu

Soh Wei Yu 2007:

(12:30 AM) Thusness: after one experiences non-dual, he should be very thorough in eliminating the background and deconstructing symbols till complete nakedness.

(12:30 AM) Thusness: the more i experience, the more respect i have for Buddha. 🙂

(12:30 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:32 AM) Thusness: u must practice till u find tremendous joy and bliss in no-self.

(12:32 AM) Thusness: then practice will become effortless.

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Soh Wei Yu

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Soh Wei Yu 2007:

(7:34 PM) Thusness: when one is able to experience our nature as it is, the bliss experienced is different.

(7:35 PM) AEN: oic

(7:35 PM) Thusness: The experience and bliss of an eternal witness observing the transient and the full experience of just the transient is different.

(7:36 PM) Thusness: the bliss and clarity of no-self is of a different dimension.

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Soh Wei Yu

Soh Wei Yu 2008:

(11:09 PM) Thusness: stage 1 can be very blissful too.

(11:09 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:09 PM) Thusness: when the meditative strength is there.

(11:09 PM) Thusness: but there is no understanding of the 'forms'

(11:09 PM) Thusness: only the pure sense of existence

(11:09 PM) Thusness: in thought realm.

(11:10 PM) Thusness: not in the 'forms'.

(11:10 PM) Thusness: u should know by now.

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Soh Wei Yu

Soh Wei Yu John Tan wrote to Sim Pern Chong (longchen/simpo) in 2006:

Haha...the intuitive experience of non-duality must have made u appreciate deeply the profound teaching of anatta and emptiness.The joy and bliss of total transparency will make us drop from our chairs (it can take few years)...Happy Journey. 🙂

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Soh Wei Yu

Soh Wei Yu And now you see why I like to meditate in parks? haha

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Soh Wei Yu

Soh Wei Yu Sim also wrote in 2007:

"Also, there are various depths of non-duality. There are levels where there is perception but there is no expereincer... one is ONE with perception. However, there are level that sensorial perception is deconstructed. At this level, cognition of things, environments, objects, person is also deconstructed... what remained is an inconcievable depthless brilliance.... a most blissful brilliance. "

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Soh Wei Yu

Soh Wei Yu John Tan, 2007

"4. Only one tremendous spontaneous clarity flows, there is no differentiation between what that spins the earth or what that pumps your heart beats or what that makes the plants grow. When you eat an apple, it is the entire universe that eats the apple. Just one whole clarity spontaneity flow. Continual experience of transcendence joy and bliss."

- http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../different...

The Different Degrees of Non-Duality

awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com

The Different Degrees of Non-Duality

The Different Degrees of Non-Duality

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Soh Wei Yu I was just telling another friend the other day that they can sense my radiance and joy and my mere presence is able to alter their mood. I'm psychotropic. 😂

Many times, and many - not just one - people that meet me ask me why I look so blissful for seemingly no reasons.

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Soh Wei Yu

Soh Wei Yu 2008:

(11:56 AM) Thusness: longchen is like entering the 18 dhatus.

(11:56 AM) AEN: icic..

(11:57 AM) Thusness: or into DO (dependent origination)

(11:57 AM) Thusness: just the arising and passing away

(11:57 AM) Thusness: without the need for a center, a locality in a non-conceptual mode. 🙂

(11:58 AM) AEN: oic..

(11:59 AM) Thusness: depending on the depth of clarity and the ability to drop, there is a very deep joy in whatever arises in a normal condition.

(12:00 PM) Thusness: it is a sort of bliss of luminous presence without the sense of self, division, locality and conceptuality

(12:00 PM) Thusness: it can also turn into a sort of absorption.

(12:00 PM) Thusness: that is the result of clear insight of our empty luminosity.

(12:00 PM) Thusness: not the result of deep concentration.

(12:01 PM) Thusness: this is very difficult to understand.

(12:01 PM) Thusness: it is an effortless absorption.

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Awakening to Reality

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

Awakening to Reality

Awakening to Reality

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Soh Wei Yu 2009:

(2:00 AM) Thusness: i wrote in luminousemptiness

(2:01 AM) Thusness: that if luminosity and emptiness is taught but there is no realisation that it is the great bliss

(2:01 AM) Thusness: then one has not realised anything

(2:02 AM) Thusness: but chodpa said, not that it is pointless but just a step along the path

(2:02 AM) Thusness: so what is it the geat bliss?

(2:03 AM) AEN: absorption in luminosity?

clarity?

i dunno

(2:03 AM) AEN: i have experience of bliss but dunnu if its wat u mean

(2:04 AM) Thusness: it is actually a sort of absorption

(2:04 AM) AEN: ya i notice theres bliss when theres absorption

(2:04 AM) Thusness: will talk about that next time

i think i will write about anatta

(2:04 AM) AEN: icic..

(2:04 AM) Thusness: so that u don't

get confused

(2:05 AM) Thusness: with non-dual

(2:05 AM) AEN: oic..

(2:05 AM) Thusness: anatta is about no agent

(2:05 AM) Thusness: clarity that there is no agent

(2:05 AM) AEN: icic..

(2:05 AM) Thusness: and because there is no agent, it has to be direct

(2:06 AM) AEN: oic

means in the sound just the sound

(2:06 AM) Thusness: it is naturally non dual

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Soh Wei Yu

Soh Wei Yu 2009:

(3:48 PM) Thusness: initially he wanted to go into shamatha

(3:49 PM) Thusness: that is why i spoke of the great bliss and the practice of the great ease

(3:49 PM) AEN: icic..

(3:49 PM) Thusness: and also emphasize that all is mind.

(3:49 PM) Thusness: but now after emptiness, he must also see another stuff.

that is the maha experience of suchness to complete it.

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Soh Wei Yu

Soh Wei Yu Ok, way too many things said about bliss and I have only glanced through 2005-2009 conversations. I won't touch 2009-2019 as it's gonna take up lots of time

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Soh Wei Yu

Soh Wei Yu Also, non-dual luminosity is blissful but not liberating, emptiness is what liberates. Other religions focus on the non-dual luminosity but not necessarily the same as the liberation focused in buddhadharma:

Session Start: Sunday, 12 September, 2010

"(12:15 AM) Thusness: Thorough ‘aliveness’ also requires ‘you’ to disappear. It is an experience of being totally ‘transparent’ and without boundaries. If you do not fall back to a background, these experiences are quite obvious, u will not miss it.

(12:22 AM) Thusness: In addition to bringing this ‘taste’ to the foreground, u must also ‘realize’ the difference between wrong and right view. There is also a difference in saying “Different forms of Aliveness” and “There is just breath, sound, scenery…”

(12:23 AM) Thusness: that these arising dependently originates.

(12:24 AM) Thusness: In the former case, realize how the mind is manifesting a subtle tendency of attempting to ‘pin’ and locate something that inherently exists. The mind feels uneasy and needs to seek for something due to its existing paradigm.

. It is not simply a matter of expression for communication sake but a habit that runs deep because it lacks a ‘view’ that is able to cater for reality that is dynamic, ungraspable, non-local , center-less and interdependent.

(12:25 AM) Thusness: Otherwise the mind will continue to locate and seek.

(12:26 AM) Thusness: Lastly also understand that 'bliss' is the result of luminosity, 'liberation' is the result of the insight of emptiness."

"(1:28 PM) Thusness: means u truly see the erroneous view of dualistic and inherent view

(1:28 PM) AEN: icic..

(1:28 PM) Thusness: then u will understand what liberates

a blissful state does not liberates u"

"Hi Simpo,

How have you been getting on? I am planning for my retirement.

I think after stabilizing non-dual experience and maturing the insight of anatta, practice must turn towards ‘self-releasing’ and ‘dispassion’ rather than intensifying ‘non-dual’ luminosity. Although being bare in attention or naked in awareness will help in dissolving the sense of ‘I’ and division, we must also look into dissolving the sense of ‘mine’. In my opinion, dissolving of the sense of ‘I’ does not equate to dissolving the sense of ‘mine’ and attachment to possessions can still be strong even after very stable non-dual experience. This is because the former realization only mange to eliminate the dualistic tendency while the latter requires us to embody and actualize the right view of ‘emptiness’. Very seldom do we realize it has a lot to do with our ‘view’ that we hold in our deep most consciousness. We must allow our luminous essence to meet differing conditions to realise the latent deep. All our body cells are imprinted and hardwired to ‘hold’. Not to under-estimate it. " - 2010?

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Angelo Gerangelo

Angelo Gerangelo Soh Wei Yu all this is so good thanks for posting !

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Soh Wei Yu on love:

AtR guide: https://docs.google.com/.../1xCaHV3T7LMNvuLew3eg.../edit...#

Compassion and Loving-Kindness

Compassion is vital to one’s practice and progression. Many years ago, John Tan informed me that he was expecting to have some breakthrough from the front of wisdom and insight for many years, and yet unexpectedly the breakthrough he was expecting came from compassion.

“You just have to be less conceptual. What is more important is to boldly let go of self and practice metta (Loving-Kindness). It is the best way to actualize anatta.” - John Tan, 2018

“Anatta does not deny you from being compassionate, contrary it opens up your mind, body and heart fully.” - John Tan, 2019

“I have had experiences of love more powerful than maybe anything else, with no trace of subjectivity, just love experiencing itself, justifying itself.” - Bill Finch, https://www.dharmaoverground.org/.../mess.../message/5580083

"My practice isn't esoteric but direct, simple empty clarity and compassion. My entire experience is currently free and liberating... and fills with joyous reverence and compassion. Very happy. An open expanse of brilliance clarity beyond description... without dual and solidity. My entire being is filled with/embraced will this clean, pure boundless insubstantial radiance freedom... energy dancing joyously and like gonna burst. I just want this empty clarity to be as natural as possible with this reverence and compassionate taste. Once your empty clarity becomes clear, powerfully present and naturally non-dual without concern of maintaining... the 3 states (waking, dreaming and deep sleep) will have a single taste. Deep Sleep and waking will share a single taste of bliss as if it is a perfection seamless continuum ... There is no concern. The strong presence will guide you... The greater the strength of this insubstantial brilliance clarity, the lesser the concerns. Only when our presence is weak there is the problem with distractions. It is like when a bodhisattva filled with compassion is not distracted with own suffering at all." ~ John Tan, 2014

"Sometimes I wonder why must the topic frequently oscillate between emptiness and preserving an indestructible essence.

Perhaps after experiencing the boundless brilliance, the aliveness, we feel deep down we must somehow exist in a true, solid and substantial way. The more we experience our radiance clarity, the more difficult for us to let go. This I understand. Maybe we should channel some bits of our time and energy towards understanding the relationship between compassion and emptiness.

When watching Garchen Rinpoche movie that Piotr sent me, it seems that to Garchen Rinpoche, nothing matters more than sentient beings. Whether there “is or isn’t” an essence seems to be a non-issue; if there is, he would joyfully and generously sacrifice for the benefits of sentient beings when needed. This is what I gathered from the movie.

I am beginning to see why Nagarjuna asserted that emptiness is the womb of compassion.

I am beginning to understand without the awakening of Bodhichitta, there is no true realization of emptiness.

I am beginning to see why Bodhicitta and wisdom are the causes of Buddhahood.

May Bodhicitta be awakened in our authentic mindstreams.

Homage to Bodhicitta.” - John Tan, 2013

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Bliss of anatta

Yin Ling

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Every year on my bday I will write a list like “ten things I learn this year”. 🤣 I was writing it this morning..

Then I fell back onto the couch for an hour, watch the fan on the ceiling, a deep bliss course through, every sensation is bliss, happening by itself like a magical display, every sensation is so blissful. What a weird gift. Even my moms nagging is blissful 🤣

So weird. So simple. I’m getting stupider by the year, and It’s really great 🤣

Yet I know to reach such simplicity has taken me so much effort. What a year. Thank you❤️

Happy new year, May 2022 be a happy one for you. May you be well. ❤️

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Yin Ling

You and John Tan has helped tremendously thank you ❤️

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John Tan

Yin Ling 😝 Btw happy birthday and happy new year!

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Yin Ling

John Tan thank you!

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Yin Ling

And happy new year to both of you!!!

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Soh Wei Yu

Yin Ling happy birthday and happy new year!

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Diederik van der Boor

One of my teachers mentioned that after awakening he couldn't recreate the bliss state anymore. Simply there wasn't anyone anymore that could get blissed out. The body still loved the generated energy, but that's about it. 🙂

off course it's possible people use the same word for different meanings but it's something to keep in mind. There are too many fantasies about what awakening feels like or is like. 🙂

Or to add a funny Papaji story. One of his students was constantly into bliss, but close to awakening. At the tipping point, Papaji just asked him "are you done?" and the guy woke up.

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Soh Wei Yu

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A note: writings I posted above are mostly Thusness and a few others, but Angelo would agree I think as he did comment in the above article,

Angelo Gerangelo

Angelo Gerangelo Soh Wei Yu all this is so good thanks for posting !

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I don’t remember specifically what I said in this video but I can answer the question and put it in the context of this group’s model. There is definitely a point in the practitioner’s process where a very distinct finality s realized. It is the absolute end of the individual and the “perfume” even if I Am sense. It can be surprising even after years of clear and thoroughly immersed realization. For some it’s so surprising that they feel disappointed bc they didn’t realize how much self still remained that was wrapped up in the spiritual journey even. To me the question about bliss etc points exactly to the distinction between Advaita and Buddhism. Holding the bliss of I Am without realizing it is very easy to do (even as subtle substratum of experience). But what Buddhism points to is a very real possibility that that one will come to a complete and final end. I can’t be sure without asking him but probably what Thusness meant when he said “all the grandeur of Brahmin goes straight down the drain” (paraphrasing). Adyashanti has talked about it a couple of times and describes it as your inner world absolutely and completely disappearing. This is exactly what it is like. There’s no “where” to regroup. There’s no time phase shift to fool yourself into apparent existence. It’s just game over in a very specific way. Now that doesn’t mean realization doesn’t continue to clarify. I know this is paradoxical but there are references. JT has said it carries itself forward, Dogen says no trace continues endlessly. I’ll say the dharma wheel keeps turning, nowhere for no-one but it does turn in a sublime and beautiful way. No one benefits and all apparent suffering brings benefit of course.

There are others who I’m quite sure have gone through it and they say similar things. One thing that is quite paradoxical about it is there is a lot of variation in how people adjust initially. One person I know was very very disappointed for about 12 hours. She cried rivers and a lifetime of tears in that 12 hours. This is someone who had enjoyed profound and clear non-dual realization and various aspects of no self for a few years. She had also been through a ton of emotion and shadow work and several dark nights of the soul. When it happened she very seriously told me “You should warn people that this can happen. They don’t realize what they’re getting into, seriously.” To which I said “Well the whole first chapter of my book is a bunch of warnings.” I also reminded her that when we met I told her I’ll take everything from her, dreams, hopes, sense of self. To which she said, “But I couldn’t have known what you meant then because at that time I thought it sounded good to ME”

Then about 12 hours later she was laughing and joking and shining as bright as the sun so…. 😂

It works out ok ✅

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Angelo Grr

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Also the bit about it not being wantable is distinct and obvious. Doesn’t mean it’s bad it’s just that any way the mind or self can put things together it will have some flavor of “for me” or “mine.” Including the desire for a permanent end to one’s suffering, some perfect understanding etc etc. It all goes bye bye. Just obliterated. Christianne Meckelberger talked about it as well. I think she said she was so disappointed that she started a FB group to complain about it for a while so she didn’t bug her teacher so much 😂.

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Patryk Czarnecki

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Angelo Grr Holy shit.

It's so important, Angelo, you should definitely do a video, specify about that deep stages.

I believe, 99% of people going into depths of spirituality, have many expectations how it's going to turn out. And your examples are hilarious, but also kinda shattering all projections. And ultimately, it's good. Thanks for answers.

Yes, i've noticed that too, Buddhism goes deeper than Brahman/Vedanta realization.

I have some questions left.

1) Do you think it's your final "stage" so to speak? I believe Bodhidharma himself mentioned, as well as some others, that path is endless, and mind has no final stage, it's infinity, so there's no such thing as done with insights. Are you pretty much sounded like it's the end, there are no more unfolding?

2)What's your view on the infinite intelligence, isn't it "God-like?" i mean you mention it's beyond "God-realization", but if we take God as creation itself, with no foreign agency, it's kinda like that. I mean it takes INFINITE intelligence to pull that brilliant trick, with appearances, coming from nothing. Also, you said many times it's beyond "human roams" , "trust it" and it's just "pure" or "enjoyable" etc.

3) what about unconditional love? Does it have some flavor of that too it?

4) do you believe you are out of Samsara? 🙂

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Aditya Prasad

I would also love to hear Angelo 's thoughts on these deep questions 😊

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Soh Wei Yu

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Angelo Grr reminds me of a quote in the atr guide

“(9:46 AM) Thusness: impersonality is the doing away of the ego (Soh: see four aspects of I AM in the stage 1 chapter), doing away with the I AM is anatta (Soh: all ultimate and metaphysical identity or Brahman is completely seen through and dissolved in stage 5)” - John Tan, 2009

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Soh Wei Yu

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Angelo Grr the 12 hours part reminds me about about how kenneth folk puts it - grieving the death of a projection

No, I'm saying something completely different. I'm questioning your assertion that "at every moment, experience has two components -- (1) appearances (thoughts, perceptions, sensations) which come and go; and (2) awareness, which does not come and go." This, I maintain, is a misunderstanding.

I'm suggesting that there is no experience of awareness. Awareness is always inferred. The experiences you are calling "awareness," however subtle, exquisite, profound, and self-validating, are just experiences, with no more or less claim to Ultimate Reality than an itch, or a thought, or gas pain. I'm suggesting that neither you, nor I, nor anyone else, past or present has ever perceived or apperceived, quasi-perceived, or otherwise-perceived awareness, either personally or impersonally. What people (understandably) mislabel "Awareness" is, in fact, a mental construct, a composite of physical and mental phenomena. I'm suggesting that the next step for you (and anyone who is talking about Awareness) is to grieve the death of your projection. With this understanding, this process of awakening takes a sharp turn into territory we never bargained for and couldn't have anticipated in advance. This is why it's hard, and rare. Most people will not take this step. They will park themselves in their mental constructs, surround themselves with people who believe the same thing, and fail to move beyond their current understanding.

-Kenneth

- http://www.dharmaoverground.org/.../messa.../message/5660045 “

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Patryk Czarnecki

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Soh Wei Yu i wonder how atr define God ?

Its not a conciousness or a Christian-like person, but still all appearance to take place, it needs infinite intelligence.

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Soh Wei Yu

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Patryk Czarnecki

There are two relevant articles I wrote. One from this year, one from 2015.

The article I wrote this year: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../wrote-to-christian...

Partial excerpt from link above:

Wrote to a Christian Mystic

Soh wrote: Hi, i think this will interest you on the various stages of awakening and depths of nondual awareness and its nature : http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../thusnesss-six...

5:11 PM

Soh wrote: On how it relates to christian mysticism, i just wrote today:

Hi Mr S

In anatta there is a feeling of divinity, of being the one intelligence, god, mind, life, awareness etc but not as a background but purely as all ongoing appearances. As Rongzom Pandita said, all appearances are divine. If there is a feeling of eternity it is not of an unchanging background but of infinite interpenetration of time and space and as if past present future are inseparable from this moment.

If no background and no entity is not clear, this feeling of all pervading divinity easily gets reified into either a universal mind or solipsist thinking. Or an ultimate background behind everything. Which is all forms of inherency and subtle duality thinking.

All is the one life one intelligence one clarity flow. Hence with anatta insight, naturally one eats god, taste god, see god, smell god, sleep god. Liberate god - for god has no face of its own, only infinite faces. To be restricted in anyway, such as grasping at an image of awareness as a formless background, is to impose artificial limitations and separation on awareness and miss out the vibrant textures and forms of awareness. In truth there is no one face of god but ten thousand faces.

As I wrote in 2012, “Every moment is an encounter of my thousand faces. The sound of thunder, every drop of rain, every heart beat, every breath, every thought. Experience, experience, experience, experience!”

Anatta will open the effortless gateway to the taste and actualization of everything as god or divinity, so it will certainly complement well your practice of christian mysticism or islamic sufism:

“Well, its not really new... it is just clear now how there is an imputation we put on Awareness as being "separate' from experience, as some sort of "stand alone" awareness". I have always experienced awareness as experience inseparably so, but didn't notice the subtle imputation that gives still a separate implication of being a remainder, when all things are absent. Being wouldn't know itself outside of experience. If being did know itself in total voidness, that very "knowing" would itself be an experience, hence the void would not be void. God cannot be separated from creation, because the potential for creation is already Known.” - Mr. J, 2012

“What is presence now? Everything... Taste saliva, smell, think, what is that? Snap of a finger, sing. All ordinary activity, zero effort therefore nothing attained. Yet is full accomplishment. In esoteric terms, eat God, taste God, see God, hear God...lol. That is the first thing I told Mr. J few years back when he first messaged me 😂 If a mirror is there, this is not possible. If clarity isn't empty, this isn't possible. Not even slightest effort is needed. Do you feel it? Grabbing of my legs as if I am grabbing presence! Do you have this experience already? When there is no mirror, then entire existence is just lights-sounds-sensations as single presence. Presence is grabbing presence. The movement to grab legs is Presence.. the sensation of grabbing legs is Presence.. For me even typing or blinking my eyes. For fear that it is misunderstood, don't talk about it. Right understanding is no presence, for every single sense of knowingness is different. Otherwise Mr. J will say nonsense... lol. When there is a mirror, this is not possible. Think I wrote to longchen (Sim Pern Chong) about 10 years ago.” - John Tan

“It is such a blessing after 15 years of "I Am" to come to this point . Beware that the habitual tendencies will try its very best to take back what it has lost. Get use to doing nothing. Eat God, taste God, see God and touch God.

Congrats.” – John Tan to Sim Pern Chong after his initial breakthrough from I AM to no-self in 2006, http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../part-2-of...

“An interesting comment Mr. J. After realization… Just eat God, breathe God, smell God and see God… Lastly be fully unestablished and liberate God.” - John Tan, 2012

Wrote to a Christian Mystic

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The 2015 article I wrote: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../vast-impersonal...

Vast Impersonal Intelligence

I had an intense peak experience recently, which I revisited some aspects of my previous realizations/experience.

There is a vast impersonal natural intelligence which is living you, or rather, it IS this life, this breathing, this walking, this drinking... this life of the universe, of the earth spinning, .... all an interconnected play of Dharma, of total life, intelligence, and awareness. The only blockage is simply this sense of an 'I', someone who controls will and dictates actions in life.

If you think that I am sounding like an advocate of 'God', I have to reiterate that this so called 'God' or intelligent Mind is empty of its own existence apart from Dharma, is not something changeless and independent, and is not some sort of source acting behind the scenes or pulling the strings. Because this vast impersonal intelligence is so magnificent, powerful and impersonal, it can give the impression that we are all just the dream or expression of a Universal Mind of God, and if we follow this 'personification' and 'reification' we may start to think whether we are living in a matrix, a dream of Shiva for no other reason than his own enjoyment. But we are not the play or lila of a Brahman, there is no need to personify or reify this at all. This intelligence IS the miracle of manifestation. The divine has no face of its own, and yet every face is the face of divinity. There is no I, no perceiver, or a controller of this spontaneous intelligent happening. Living this is living in complete ecstasy and joy born of this total intelligence, life and clarity.

I just found something by Daniel Ingram which pretty much describes it nicely:

"Thus, sensations of effort are just sensations of effort, but imply no fundamental split off entity that is making this effort. It is just a natural product of the interdependent universe. Just so, the sense of a will is replaced with a mysterious sense of absolutely natural causality and a natural, creative “intelligence” that operates in all of this, though the sensations that make up the sense of will continue as before. This is what is meant in the teachings of the twelve links of dependent origination when it says, “With the complete cessation of [fundamental] ignorance, volitional formations cease.” Similarly, sensations of intimacy are just sensations of intimacy and simply imply proximity rather than a separate self. Those of third path know this to some degree, and those of second path can look into this to try to attain the understanding of third path. Arahats have fully understood this."

(note: his definition of 'Arahat' is different from the suttas definition)

Also in moments of peak experience, I see we have to overcome the habitual tendencies of distracted thoughts... means we must be able to completely silent our mind and be able to have no thoughts at all to fully experience the fullness and presence of our six senses without a single trace of thought or sense of self... the trees, the sky, the breeze, everything in its complete intensity without thoughts. I'm not saying thought must be stopped at all moments, but like Eckhart Tolle said, after awakening 90% of his (unnecessary) thoughts just disappeared and thats what make a difference to his life. Without this we will not be able to feel the intensity of total Presence. So meditate and do yoga. Realization alone is insufficient without shamatha. Yes, you can experience anatta even when there are wandering thoughts because it is always already so, but one can never fully appreciate the Presence, total life, intelligence and awareness... it is a whole different level.

In other words: thoughts are ok, but you must have 'mastery' over them. Means unnecessary thoughts do not arise.

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Also, from the Dzogchen perspective, this is how Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith explains things:

Partial excerpts from http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../clarifications-on...

Malcolm wrote:

Yes, I understand. All awarenesses are conditioned. There is no such thing as a universal undifferentiated ultimate awareness in Buddhadharma. Even the omniscience of a Buddha arises from a cause.

PadmaVonSamba wrote:

isn't this cause, too, an object of awareness? Isn't there awareness of this cause? If awareness of this cause is awareness itself, then isn't this awareness of awareness? What causes awareness of awareness, if not awareness?

If awareness is the cause of awareness, isn't it its own cause?

Malcolm wrote:

Omniscience is the content of a mind freed of afflictions. Even the continuum of a Buddha has a relative ground, i.e. a the rosary or string of moments of clarity is beginingless.

Origination from self is axiomatically negated in Buddhadharma,

Each moment in the continuum of a knowing clarity is neither the same as nor different than the previous moment. Hence the cause of a given instant of a knowing clarity cannot be construed to be itself nor can it be construed to be other than itself. This is the only version of causation which, in the final analysis, Buddhadharma can admit to on a relative level. It is the logical consequence of the Buddha's insight, "When this exists, that exists, with the arising of that, this arose."

PadmaVonSamba wrote:

I am not referring to cognition, rather, the causes of that cognition.

Malcolm wrote:

Cognitions arise based on previous cognitions. That's all.

If you suggest anything other than this, you wind up in Hindu La la land.

Malcolm wrote:

There is no such thing as a universal undifferentiated ultimate awareness in Buddhadharma.

gad rgyangs wrote:

"In other words, following Khenpo Jikphun (transcript from JLA) :

« — You have the Base (gzhi) of the natural state. That state has a knowledge (rig pa) which, owing to the dynamism of the state (which is not static), flashes out of the Base."

Malcolm wrote:

This occurs because of latent traces of karma and affliction left over from the previous eon, according to a commentary attributed to Garab Dorje on the Single Son of All the Buddhas Tantras.

So this neutral awareness that rises out of the basis upon the stirring of vāyu in the basis actually has a cause.

"Amazing!

Mere clear vidyā, this mere intermediate realization,

it is not a buddha, is not a sentient beings,

neutral, dependent on both conditions.

For example, it is like a stainless crystal ball,

which can produce fire or water through the condition of the sun or the moon.

Likewise, vidyā, the essence of the mind,

arises as the suffering of samsara or the bliss of nirvana through conditions."

The Three Kāyas Tantra from the Ka dag rang shar

gad rgyangs wrote:

how could the basis be subject to karma and afflictions?

Malcolm wrote:

The basis does not have a cause, just like space does not have a cause. But it is a repository for the build up of traces nevertheless.

'The way samsara arose at first is, when the trio of vāyu, vidyā and space arose from the undifferentiated basis, since vidyā was unstable because of isolation, and engaged in self-delusion, panicked at sound, frightened of the light, and fainted at the light and was covered by ignorance. After it engages in self-delusion, the duality of outer objects and inner mind arises. The mere thought of self arising from other, and other arising from self, disturbed the karmavāyus. Mind is built up by the vāyu, the analytical mind analyzes objects. The self-deluded awareness demarcated sensation and since it did not recognize it own appearances, apparent objects were apprehended as a duality. Since that accumulated traces of karma, a physical body was appropriated and the suffering of delusion is uninterrupted. For example, sentient being formed out of ignorance are like being stuck pitch dark.'

The Clear Lamp from the Ka dag rang shar

The whole process is clearly personal and individual, not transpersonal.

...

Clarifications on Dharmakaya and Basis by Loppön Namdrol/Malcolm

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gad rgyangs wrote:

I dunno Malcolm, the basis is more like the backdrop against which any appearances appear, including any consciousness. Also, what sense would it make to say "rigpa is one's knowledge of the basis" if that basis was one's own continuum? the basis is pure no-thing as abgrund of all phenomena. Consciousness is always a phenomenon.

Malcolm wrote:

I prefer to put my faith in the guy whose father started the whole Nyinthig thing.And what is says is verified in many Dzogchen tantras, both from the bodhcitta texts as well as others.

The basis is not a backdrop. Everything is not separate from the basis. But that everything just means your own skandhas, dhātus and āyatanas. There is no basis outside your mind, just as there is no Buddhahood outside of your mind.

[Quoting gad rgyangs: Consciousness is always a phenomenon.] So is the basis. They are both dharmas.

Or as the Great Garuda has it when refuting Madhyamaka:

Since phenomena and nonphenomena have always been merged and are inseparable,

there is no further need to explain an “ultimate phenomenon”.

An 12th century commentary on this text states (but not this passage):

Amazing bodhicitta (the identity of everything that becomes the basis of pursuing the meaning that cannot be seen nor realized elsewhere than one’s vidyā) is wholly the wisdom of the mind distinct as the nine consciousnesses that lack a nature.

In the end, Dzogchen is really just another Buddhist meditative phenomenology of the mind and person and that is all.

gad rgyangs wrote:

Then why speak of a basis at all? just speak of skandhas, dhātus and āyatanas, and be done with it.

Malcolm wrote:

Because these things are regarded as afflictive, whereas Dzogchen is trying to describe the person in his or her originally nonafflictive condition. It really is just that simple. The so called general basis is a universal derived from the particulars of persons. That is why it is often mistaken for a transpersonal entity. But Dzogchen, especially man ngag sde is very grounded in Buddhist Logic, and one should know that by definition universals are considered to be abstractions and non-existents in Buddhism, and Dzogchen is no exception.

gad rgyangs wrote:

There is no question of the basis being an entity, thats not the point. Rigpa is precisely what it says in the yeshe sangthal: instant presence experienced against/within the "backdrop" (metaphor) of a "vast dimension of emptiness" (metaphor).

Malcolm wrote:

It's your own rigpa, not a transpersonal rigpa, being a function of your own mind. That mind is empty.

gad rgyangs wrote:

When all appearances cease, what are you left with?

Malcolm wrote:

They never cease....

gad rgyangs wrote:

In the yeshe sangthal you dissolve all appearances into the "vast dimension of emptiness", out of which "instant presence" arises. This is cosmological as well as personal, since the two scales are nondual.

rigpa is ontological not epistemic: its not about some state of consciousness before dualism vision, it is about the basis/abgrund of all possible appearances, including our consciousness in whatever state its in or could ever be in.

Malcolm wrote:

Sorry, I just don't agree with you and think you are just falling in the Hindu brahman trap.

Sherlock wrote:

Isn't the difference between transpersonal and personal also a form of dualism?

Malcolm wrote:

The distinction is crucial. If this distinction is not made, Dzogchen sounds like Vedanta.

Malcolm wrote:

[Quoting gad rgyangs: in the yeshe sangthal you dissolve all appearances into the "vast dimension of emptiness", out of which "instant presence" arises. This is cosmological as well as personal, since the two scales are nondual.]

'The way that great transference body arises:

when all appearances have gradually been exhausted,

when one focuses one’s awareness on the appearances strewn about

on the luminous maṇḍala of the five fingers of one’s hand,

the environment and inhabitants of the universe

returning from that appearance are perceived as like moon in the water.

One’s body is just a reflection,

self-apparent as the illusory body of wisdom;

one obtains a vajra-like body.

One sees one’s body as transparent inside and out.

The impure eyes of others cannot see one’s body as transparent,

but only the body as it was before...'

Shabkar, Key to One Hundred Doors of Samadhi

Outer appearances do not disappear even when great transference body is attained. What disappears are the inner visions, that is what is exhausted, not the outer universe with its planets, stars, galaxies, mountains, oceans, cliffs, houses, people and sentient beings.

M

gad rgyangs wrote:

I'm talking about the perception of the relationship between nothing and something. The question of what jargon to use when talking around it is secondary, although not without historical interest.

Malcolm wrote:

Rigpa is just knowing, the noetic quality of a mind. That is all it is.

Malcolm wrote:

Omniscience is the content of a mind freed of afflictions. Even the continuum of a Buddha has a relative ground, i.e. a the rosary or string of moments of clarity is beginingless.

Origination from self is axiomatically negated in Buddhadharma,

Each moment in the continuum of a knowing clarity is neither the same as nor different than the previous moment. Hence the cause of a given instant of a knowing clarity cannot be construed to be itself nor can it be construed to be other than itself. This is the only version of causation which, in the final analysis, Buddhadharma can admit to on a relative level. It is the logical consequence of the Buddha's insight, "When this exists, that exists, with the arising of that, this arose."

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Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Malcolm wrote:

Defining the basis as a sort of fabric out of which appearances arise does not solve the problem of individuated consciousnesses.

What is the basis in fact? The Dzogchen tantras describe this as "wisdom". This wisdom is said to have three aspects [rnam pa], original purity, its svabhāva; natural perfection, its prakṛiti; and compassion, the inseparability of the first two.

Even discussing wisdom as a the basis, even a nonsubstantiated basis as in Dzogchen does not make sense if that wisdom is not describing a noetic entity. Simplistic solutions like refusing to define it as one or many simply raise more questions than they answer.

There are two propositions:

B1, the basis as a transpersonal field out of which everything in samsara and nirvana is instantiated through its non-recognition.

B2 the basis is meant only to apply to any given sentient beings. Since this applies to all sentient being, here the basis is like fire, fire as light and heat as a quality, every instantiation of fire has light and heat. Likewise, every sentient beings shares common characteristics because they are sentient, they have consciousness.

Dante, your position is B1, and while I can understand how people are lead to accept B1 as the message of Dzogchen teachings, it is an exaggeration in my estimation.

Instead, I think B2 is the more proper understanding, based for example on Nyibum's remark that the basis is one's unfabricated mind. This is an authoritative citation that must be addressed and heeded. For example, the Mind Mirror of Vajrasattva states:

That is one’s own basis but it was not recognized by oneself. The samsaric three realms are formed through delusion. 

Then, after the afflictions become more coarse, different forms of sentient beings emerge, deluded from the basis in that way.”

This just means that each and every sentient being is deluded from their own basis; even though the basis is described in generic terms, it is not the case that all sentient beings ultimate share one basis. The basis is uniform in its nature, if you will, among all instantiations of sentient beings but each and every sentient being's basis is unique to that being. Since the Dzogchen tantras do describe wisdom as being a repository for traces, again we can try to explain this through B1 or B2.

In the B1 scenario, the basis would have to like a bank, where different people placed their traces, kind of like samsara accounts.

A B2 scenario is much simpler, since it is only means that since sentient beings did not recognize their own unfabricated minds, then they begin to develop the traces of action that produce our common karmic visions of the six realms. This is certainly the intent of Shabkar when he writes:

Therefore, since appearances are not fixed,

whatever appears [appears] because of the power of traces.

And:

Therefore, everything is an appearance of the mind.

Since everything is created by the concepts of the mind,

in reality, all of the appearances of the mind are empty.

More importantly Shabkar states:

Self-originated primordial wisdom appearing as vidyā is also the mind...

There are no appearances at all apart from the mind.

And:

This is the introduction that confirms the basis,

the natural reality of the mind essence.

Compare these last two with Nyibum:

As such, because the basis, one’s unfabricated mind, arose as the essence of the sole reality, there is no need to search elsewhere for the place etc., i.e. it is called self-originated wisdom.

(Apologies for the last version, which was from an earlier unedited version by mistake)

My present position therefore, is B2, the basis is just the way a sentient being's consciousness [shes pa rather than rnam par shes pa] or mind [sems, citta] is talked about in Dzogchen texts prior to being afflicted for all the reasons I mentioned earlier.

M

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Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Malcolm:

"One, whoever told you rig pa is not part of the five aggregates? Rig pa is knowledge of your own state. In its impure form one's own state manifests as the five aggregates; in its pure form, it manifests as the five buddha families.

Nagārjuna resolves this issue through using the eight examples. There is no substantial transmission, but there is serial continuity, like lighting a fire from another fire, impressing a seal on a document and so on. See his verses on dependent origination:

All migrating beings are causes and results.

but here there are no sentient beings at all;

just empty phenomena entirely produced

from phenomena that are only empty,

phenomena without a self and what belongs to a self,

[like] utterances, lamps, mirrors, seals,

lenses, seeds, sourness and echoes.

Although the aggregates are serially connected,

the wise are understand that nothing transfers.

Also, the one who imputes annihilation

upon extremely subtle existents,

is not wise,

and will not see the meaning of ‘arising from conditions’."

....

“The relative is not "reliant" on the ultimate, since they are just different cognitions of the same entity, one false, the other veridical.

There is no separate entity called "buddhanature" that can be established to exist in a sentient being composed of the five aggregates. If one should assert this is so, this position will be no different than the atman of the nonbuddhists.”

....

And this so-called "god" aka basis [gzhi] is just a nonexistent mere appearance, that is, our primordial potentiality also has no real existence, which is stated over and over again in countless Dzogchen tantras.

For those whom emptiness is possible, everything is possible.

For those whom emptiness is not possible, nothing is possible.

-- Nāgārjuna.

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Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Also, a small excerpt from http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../mistaken-reality-of...

John Tan:

The 'bond' is greatly loosened after "no mirror reflecting". From blinking your eyes, raising a hand...jumps...flowers, sky, chirping birds, footsteps...every single moment...nothing is not it! There is just IT. The instantaneous moment is total intelligence, total life, total clarity. Everything Knows, it's it. There is no two, there is one. Smile

During the process of transition from 'Witness' to 'no Witness' some experience the manifestation as itself being intelligence, some experience it as immense vitality, some experience it as tremendous clarity and some, all 3 qualities explode into one single moment. Even then the 'bond' is far from being completely eliminated, we know how subtle it can be 😉 . The principle of conditionality might help if you face problem in future (I know how a person feel after the experience of non-duality, they don't like 'religion'... 🙂 Just simply 4 sentences).

When there is this, that is.

With the arising of this, that arises.

When this is not, neither is that.

With the cessation of this, that ceases.

Not for scientists, more crucial for the experience of the totality of our Pristine Awareness.

The 'who' is gone, the 'where' and 'when' isn't (Soh: after initial breakthrough of anatta insight).

Find delights in -- this is, that is. 🙂

....

The ‘who’, ‘where’ and ‘when’, the ‘I’, ‘here’ and ‘now’ must ultimately give way to the experience of total transparency. Do not fall back to a source, just the manifestation is sufficient. This will become so clear that total transparency is experienced. When total transparency is stabilized, transcendental body is experienced and dharmakaya is seen everywhere. This is the samadhi bliss of Bodhisattva. This is the fruition of practice.

Experience all appearance with total vitality, vividness and clarity. They are really our Pristine Awareness, every moment and everywhere in all its manifolds and diversities. When causes and conditions is, manifestation is, when manifestation is, Awareness is. All is the one reality.

Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am"

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Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am"

Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am"

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Soh Wei Yu

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Patryk Czarnecki Also, the dharma teacher Daniel M. Ingram said this about intelligence in relation to anatta:

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../intelligence-and...

Daniel M. Ingram:

"So you have these two extremes - both of which I find pretty annoying (laughs) - and uhm, not that they are not making interesting points that counterbalance each other. And then, from an experiential point of view, the whole field seems to be happening on its own in a luminous way, the intelligence or awareness seems to be intrinsic in the phenomena, the phenomena do appear to be totally transient, totally ephemeral. So I would reject from an experiential point of view, something in the harshness of the dogma of the rigid no-selfists that can't recognise the intrinsic nature of awareness that is the field. If that makes sense. Cos they tend to feel there's something about that's sort of (cut off?)..."

Interviewer: "And not only awareness..."

Daniel: "Intelligence. Right, and I also reject from an experiential point of view the people who would make this permanent, something separate from, something different from just the manifestation itself. I don't like the permanence aspect because from a Buddhist technical point of view I do not find anything that stands up as permanent in experience. I find that quality always there *while there is experience.* Because it's something in the nature of experience. But it's not quite the same thing as permanence, if that makes sense. So while there is experience, there is experience. So that means there is awareness, from a certain point of view, manifestation - awareness being intrinsically the same thing, intrinsic to each other. So while there is experience, I would claim that element (awareness) is there - it has to be for there to be experience. And I would claim that the system seems to function very lawfully and it's very easy to feel that there's a sort of intelligence, ok, cool... ...the feeling of profundity, the feeling of miraculousness, the wondrous component. So as the Tibetans would say, amazing! It all happens by itself! So, there is intrinsically amazing about this. It's very refreshingly amazing that the thing happens, and that things cognize themselves or are aware where they are, manifestation is truly amazing and tuning into that amazingness has something valuable about it from a pragmatic point of view."

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNg-gps9O0w

Labels: Anatta, Daniel Ingram, Luminosity 0 comments | |

Intelligence and Impermanence

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Intelligence and Impermanence

Intelligence and Impermanence

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Patryk Czarnecki

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Soh Wei Yu wow, thank you. It really, really resonates. And it also solves many discord beliefs, like God's dream, solipsism, God's play etc.

What about escape from samsara and nirvana? Does an individual get freedom from death/rebirth? Any theories about that?:)

And there's also the problem with reincarnation, since there's no self... ?

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Soh Wei Yu

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Soh Wei Yu

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Patryk Czarnecki Have you been through any of the thusness 7 phases insights personally and experientially?

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Patryk Czarnecki

Author


Soh Wei Yu Thank you! it makes sense, way more than Vedanta, and "The Self" stuff... 😉

i'm on the start of this pathless path, stage 1~~ 🙂 What stage are you?

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Soh Wei Yu

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Patryk Czarnecki

I have been through the 7 phases myself

Do you mean you have had doubtless certainty and realisation of the I AM? Or do you just have glimpses and are aiming for the realization?

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Soh Wei Yu

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For those that only had recognition ( http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../i-am... ) or glimpses before self-realization, I would recommend self-enquiry (AtR abridged guide https://app.box.com/s/zc0suu4dil01xbgirm2r0rmnzegxaitq , Angelo's site etc have resources)

If you already had total certainty and doubtless Self-Realization, I will recommend looking at these:

I AM Experience/Glimpse/Recognition vs I AM Realization (Certainty of Being)

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

I AM Experience/Glimpse/Recognition vs I AM Realization (Certainty of Being)

I AM Experience/Glimpse/Recognition vs I AM Realization (Certainty of Being)

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Soh Wei Yu

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Excerpts from http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../mistaken-reality-of...

Soh to someone at the I AM phase: In my AtR (awakening to reality community), more than 50+ people have realised anatta and most have went through the same phases (from I AM to non dual to anatta ... and many have now went into twofold emptiness)

For practical purpose, if you had the I AM awakening, and focus on contemplating and practicing based on these articles, you will be able to awaken the anatta insight within a year. Plenty of people get stuck at I AM for decades or lifetimes, but I progressed from I AM to anatta realisation within a year due to guidance from John Tan and focusing on the following contemplations:

1) The Four Aspects of I AM , http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../four-aspects-of-i...

2) The Two Nondual Contemplations , https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../two-types-of...

3) The Two Stanzas of Anatta , http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../on-anatta-emptiness...

4) Bahiya Sutta , http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../ajahn-amaro-on-non... and http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../my-commentary-on...

its important to go into the textures and forms of awareness, not just dwell on formless... then with contemplating the two stanzas of anatta, you will breakthrough to nondual anatta

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../thusnesss...

here's an excerpt from another good article

“It is extremely difficult to express what is ‘Isness’. Isness is awareness as forms. It is a pure sense of presence yet encompassing the ‘transparent concreteness’ of forms. There is a crystal clear sensations of awareness manifesting as the manifold of phenomenal existence. If we are vague in the experiencing of this ‘transparent concreteness’ of Isness, it is always due to that ‘sense of self’ creating the sense of division… ...you must stress the ‘form’ part of awareness. It is the ‘forms’, it is the ‘things’.” - John Tan, 2007

Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am"

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Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am"

Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am"

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Patryk Czarnecki

Author


Soh Wei Yu Angelo Grr it's in 23:15

"no body ,no world, no consciousness"

This part is confusing.

1) how do you "know" that, if there's no consciousness? If there's no consciousness, there's no knowing.

2) it really sounds like "the final" it's just void. - is it?

3)there's really no more unfolding? Some great Zen master's claimed that the path goes on forever, as mind is infinite, and here, Angelo sounds like it's really "The End."

I guess it really sounds disappointing, scary, and tragic... It's often stated to "trust" in process, because it's way bigger than you are, and it's like it all goes to void, annihilation.

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Yin Ling

Admin

Patryk Czarnecki u can’t use logic for this. U have to Practice step by step , penetrate one insight after another, that’s why the ATr insight is step by step.

Angelo is going very deep here because he is very advanced.. he is talking two fold emptiness and ultimate reality.

There’s no need a consciousness to know. The form is the knowing is the emptiness but that too u have to experientially reach. Not logic. Unless u really experience, there is no way anyone can explain this to u.

It’s good to ask Q but sometimes u need to really practice. No point verifying other ppls realisation , be more concern of your own practice and insight.

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Angelo Grr

Admin

Yin Ling I agree with this. Really have to have a foundation on the house before you install a roof so to speak. Not that I endorse esoteric knowledge etc, but really for first awakening you don’t need to know any of this and trying to hold a framework of understanding can become a hinderance, when at this stage all you are called upon to do is go beyond conceptual binding. So there is a value to going in a stepwise fashion. You may even “taste” some later stage experientially for a moment like non-dual, but it won’t be stable and you’ll just chase it through memory and intellect. Much better to realize and somewhat stabilize kensho/I Am/ consciousness rigpa before concerning yourself with extremely subtle insights. 😊

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Soh Wei Yu

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Patryk Czarnecki

Do read this article in full http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../no-awareness-does...

Excerpt:

“Geovani Geo to me, to be without dual is not to subsume into one and although awareness is negated, it is not to say there is nothing.

Negating the Awareness/Presence (Absolute) is not to let Awareness remain at the abstract level. When such transpersonal Awareness that exists only in wonderland is negated, the vivid radiance of presence are fully tasted in the transient appearances; zero gap and zero distance between presence and moment to moment of ordinary experiences and we realize separation has always only been conventional.

Then mundane activities -- hearing, sitting, standing, seeing and sensing, become pristine and vibrant, natural and free.” – John Tan, 2020

No Awareness Does Not Mean Non-Existence of Awareness

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No Awareness Does Not Mean Non-Existence of Awareness

No Awareness Does Not Mean Non-Existence of Awareness

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Soh Wei Yu

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Patryk Czarnecki Having said that, since based on what you told me privately, you are still on the path to Self Realization or total certainty of the I AM. In that case you do not need to focus on realizing presence as appearance and no Self but rather first direct your enquiry to Who/What am I? and what Awareness is first until Awareness is realized.

Quote from the AtR guide:

In 2009, John Tan wrote:

"Hi Teck Cheong,

What you described is fine and it can be considered vipassana meditation too but you must be clear what is the main objective of practicing that way. Ironically, the real purpose only becomes obvious after the arising insight of anatta. What I gathered so far from your descriptions are not so much about anatta or empty nature of phenomena but are rather drawn towards Awareness practice. So it will be good to start from understanding what Awareness truly is. All the method of practices that you mentioned will lead to a quality of experience that is non-conceptual. You can have non-conceptual experience of sound, taste...etc...but more importantly in my opinion, you should start from having a direct, non-conceptual experience of Awareness (first glimpse of our luminous essence). Once you have a ‘taste’ of what Awareness is, you can then think of ‘expanding’ this bare awareness and gradually understand what does ‘heightening and expanding’ mean from the perspective of Awareness.

Next, although you hear and see ‘non-dual, anatta and dependent origination’ all over the place in An Eternal Now’s forum (the recent Toni Packer’s books you bought are about non-dual and anatta), there is nothing wrong being ‘dualistic’ for a start. Even after direct non-conceptual experience of Awareness, our view will still continue to be dualistic; so do not have the idea that being dualistic is bad although it prevents thorough experience of liberation.

The comment given by Dharma Dan is very insightful but of late, I realized that it is important to have a first glimpse of our luminous essence directly before proceeding into such understanding. Sometimes understanding something too early will deny oneself from actual realization as it becomes conceptual. Once the conceptual understanding is formed, even qualified masters will find it difficult to lead the practitioner to the actual ‘realization’ as a practitioner mistakes conceptual understanding for realization.

Rgds,

John"

“The anatta I realized is quite unique. It is not just a realization of no-self. But it must first have an intuitive insight of Presence. Otherwise will have to reverse the phases of insights.” - John Tan, 2018

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Soh Wei Yu

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Might good to focus on the self enquiry chapter in the I AM chapter of the atr abridged guide: https://app.box.com/s/zc0suu4dil01xbgirm2r0rmnzegxaitq

ATR-Practice-Guide-v1.00.docx | Powered by Box

APP.BOX.COM

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Soh Wei Yu

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Likewise, even though Angelo explained anatman realization, he begins by leading practitioners to the realization of the I AM/Consciousness first. He generally does not start to lead seekers straight to the anatman realization, unless conditions were ripe.

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Soh Wei Yu

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On no body, see mind body drop chapter in AtR guide:

Mind-Body Drop

Mind-Body Drop arise as a result of deconstructing the construct of a ‘body’. For some, this may arise even at the One Mind phase in John Stage 4 realization (e.g. Rupert Spira wrote about mind-body drop even in the One Mind phase in Transparency of Things), for others (such as Soh) as a further progression after John Stage 5 realization. If you have realised anatta but have not yet undergone a distinct phase of mind-body drop, investigating the body-mind construct according to this chapter might help. I (Soh) remember having a realization and penetration of the body construct - that it is merely a construct extrapolated out of a bunch of disjointed bodily sensations, and thus the ‘body’ along with its shape, contour and boundaries never truly existed as the entity that was conceived, one week after my realization of anatta through Bahiya Sutta that led to mind-body drop. My experience of anatta was deepened and further purified as a result.

“I was investigating the sense of a body about a week after anatta realisation, then it was just seen that just like anatta realization, in hearing just sound and in seeing just seen, what we call “body” really cannot be found as an entity beside the various disjoint sensations.. the whole construct of an inherent body along with the sense of a boundary, shape, size, weight is thus penetrated via insight into its delusory nature.

This is different from people who only had a glimpse of mind body drop.. just like anatta realization is a realization of what always is, it is not just a peak experience of no mind. I think you should know the difference” – Soh

Gary wrote in Dharma Overground in 2009, "In walking meditation the "I" appears to place or make sense of the sensory perception. This involves a body image for example foot sensations are perceived to be at the foot, movement is perceived in relation to the previous position. Once in walking meditation I had the body disappear so there was just the feet touch sensations belonging and going nowhere. Does this describe direct without intermediary?”

John Tan replied, "Yes Gary, what you said is correct. It is only a matter of depth and intensity, ie, how clear, how vivid, how real, how pristine the arising and passing sensations are when compared to the “I AM”. In the case of “I AM”, it is so clear, so real and so pristine that it burns away all traces of doubts. Absolutely certain, still and thoughtless that even Buddha is unable to shake the practitioner from this direct Realization of “I-ness”.

By the way, there should not be any ‘image’ in whatever experienced, thus, direct.

With regards to the “body's disappearance” that you mentioned, it relates to an experience called the “mind-body drop”. There are few more important points that you may want to take note:

1. It is not just due to “concentration on the sensations, the body image had no opportunity to arise”, the insight that mind and body are mere constructs must also arise and the disappearance is also the result of dissolving of these constructs.

2. Mind-body drop must also come with a sense of lightness. In the first few glimpses, you will also feel weightless and when the experience becomes clearer, you will also realize the “weight” of these constructs.

3. From the constructs, you may also want to explore further what happen when the constructs of “in/out” disappears.

Lastly the practice of self enquiry is not without danger. A practitioner can also be led into a state of utter confusions when exploring the ‘I’ through mere analytical process. So practice with care.”

Do note however that the dissolution of the sense of body can also occur as a peak experience in deep meditation or samadhi. This is not the same as the mind-body drop that occurs as a result of penetrative wisdom and insights that deconstructs all artificial and constructed boundaries, shapes, and solidity of a body and mind. The mind-body drop of wisdom can be a 24/7 experience, whereas dissolution of body-sense from a peak experience or a state of samadhi is short-lived and temporary.

“Mind and body dropped off; dropped off mind and body! This state should be experienced by everyone; it is like piling fruit into a basket without a bottom, like pouring water into a bowl with a pierced hole; however much you may pile or pour you cannot fill it up. When this is realized the pail bottom is broken through. But while there is still a trace of conceptualism which makes you say ‘I have this understanding’ or ‘I have that realization’, you are still playing with unrealities.” - Dogen

"Wu wei ding (the samadhi of non-action) is not about sitting and the state of body disappears completely. 🙂 The 24/7 without sitting and the body disappears completely is the transparency I told you. It is realisation of non-duality. Stability until a certain stage, one will have that sort of feeling. I have explained that to you before. The truth of wu-wei ding (the samadhi of non-action) is a form of natural ding that you do not have to meditate at all as all is spontaneous arising accompanied by crystal clarity. It is what I have told you yesterday. In this state of wu wei ding (the samadhi of non-action), it is not about practice through sitting until you reached such a stage, it is rather a very deep form of realisation and the non-dual realisation has sunk deep into the inmost consciousness that the 3 characteristics I told you is experienced. Transparent Crystal clarity is that state of body disappears completely 24/7. But you need the other 2 characteristics I told you (fearlessness and non-attachment), you will have a crystal clarity free of any idea or sense of 'self'. What she said is true so far. But the 2 characteristics must be present to experience about wu wei ding (the samadhi of non-action). It cannot be compromised. In between the chan ding and wu wei ding (the samadhi of non-action), requires the experience of non-dual. Otherwise there is no way to enter such a stage." - John Tan, 2007

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Soh Wei Yu

Admin

“It is true that when no-self is actualized and when the body is deconstructed, a practitioner naturally experiences the mind-body drop. This means any sense or image of a body and a mind completely dissolves along with any senses of 'entrapment' or 'boundaries' at all. But do note that this is not a stage of meditative achievement. It is the result of wisdom-insight into the delusional constructions that conceives of a substantial body and a mind. In other words it is a form of self-view and view of a physical body being dissolved via prajna wisdom. Our notion of a solid body with fixed shape, boundaries, and substance deconstructs when we examine it and see that there is only flickering sensations without a center or boundary. After which, mind-body drop becomes natural and effortless, not a stage to be attained in meditation and lost outside meditation.

And because this is so, *mind body drop is an experience in daily life*. It is not separated from your mind, body, and daily life. It does not mean your body and mind ceases - it is your deluded image of an inherently existing self, body and mind is being released, so your daily life is experienced in a liberated manner.

Therefore it is erroneous to think of "mind-body drop" as a stage of achievement separated from this very experience of body-mind-world. It is only that this body-mind-world is seen as empty of anything graspable, transparent, and boundless. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.

More importantly, by that stage, you realize that "Awareness" itself is an imputation on the entire flow of manifestation - "Awareness" itself does not exist separately apart from each momentary mind moment, whether it is a sense of formless presence in deep sleep, or the shapes and forms of each waking moment. In other words, Awareness is also empty of

being an independent, separate self.

Since this is the case, it is seen at this stage that the very notion of "true absolute Awareness" vs "phenomena" is a false, dualistic paradigm in the first place. There is only the one suchness of form and essence - in so far as each experience, each form, is both luminous clarity (Awareness) in essence and empty of self in nature. This is the nature of mind.” - Soh, 2013

“Like when backdropped self is seen through, mind-body dropped came later. Also “hereness” and “nowness” aren’t deconstructed at the time of “no self”.

Similarly lately about the relationships between “body”, “consciousness” and “vayu” (Soh: Tibetan word for ‘wind’, in Dzogchen wind and mind are seen as synonymous) aren’t too. The seeming relationships of “cause and effect” among them seems real, intimate until one realises that the diversities of vayu are just one’s mind and mind is empty, then the “relationship” disappears, the gap between them disappears.

So like the above case, after a few decades, one can still be so attached and affected unknowingly until certain 缘 (conditions) that allows one to see through” - John Tan, 2018

“Before inquiring into a new way of listening, let me just share the joy of walking through the fields and woods on this extraordinary land. Just stepping out of the reception area, closing the door behind me, walking away from the overhang that shields one from the sun and rain, there isn’t any enclosure left—not even a body!

All I am is the birds singing and fluttering, bare branches swaying in the breeze, the ground partly frozen yet melting, the pond covered with a thin layer of ice, and the blue hills, sky and wandering clouds within close reach. There is also a throbbing heart and the people walking on the path. Even those who are not here—aren’t we all together this one moment—beholding everything out of stillness?” - Toni Packer, The Wonder of Presence

“Your movement of thought interferes with the process of touch, just as it does with the other senses. Anything you touch is always translated as 'hard', 'soft', 'warm', 'cold', 'wet', 'dry', and so on.

You do not realize it, but it is your thinking that creates your own body. Without this thought process there is no body consciousness -- which is to say there is no body at all. My body exists for other people; it does not exist for me; there are only isolated points of contact, impulses of touch which are not tied together by thought. So the body is not different from the objects around it; it is a set of sensations like any others. Your body does not belong to you.

Perhaps I can give you the 'feel' of this. I sleep four hours at night, no matter what time I go to bed. Then I lie in bed until morning fully awake. I don't know what is lying there in the bed; I don't know whether I'm lying on my left side or my right side -- for hours and hours I lie like this. If there is any noise outside -- a bird or something -- it just echoes in me. I listen to the "flub-dub-flub-dub" of my heart and don't know what it is. There is no body between the two sheets -- the form of the body is not there. If the question is asked, "What is in there?" there is only an awareness of the points of contact, where the body is in contact with the bed and the sheets, and where it is in contact with itself, at the crossing of the legs, for example. There are only the sensations of touch from these points of contact, and the rest of the body is not there. There is some kind of heaviness, probably the gravitational pull, something very vague. There is nothing inside which links up these things. Even if the eyes are open and looking at the whole body, there are still only the points of contact, and they have no connection with what I am looking at. If I want to try to link up these points of contact into the shape of my own body, probably I will succeed, but by the time it is completed the body is back in the same situation of different points of contact. The linkage cannot stay. It is the same sort of thing when I'm sitting or standing. There is no body.

Can you tell me how mango juice tastes? I can't. You also cannot; but you try to relive the memory of mango juice now -- you create for yourself some kind of an experience of how it tastes -- which I cannot do. I must have mango juice on my tongue -- seeing or smelling it is not enough -- in order to be able to bring that past knowledge into operation and to say "Yes, this is what mango juice tastes like." This does not mean that personal preferences and 'tastes' change. In a market my hand automatically reaches out for the same items that I have liked all my life. But because I cannot conjure up a mental experience, there can be no craving for foods which are not there.

Smell plays a greater part in your daily life than does taste. The olfactory organs are constantly open to odors. But if you do not interfere with the sense of smell, what is there is only an irritation in the nose. It makes no difference whether you are smelling cow dung or an expensive French perfume -- you rub the nose and move on.” - U.G. Krishnamurti, The Mystique of Enlightenment

“Hi Star,

You have loosen the ‘bond’ of a background, no-self is experienced; but the propensity of ‘attempting to

....

snipped. too long. continue reading in the longer AtR guide

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Soh Wei Yu

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Patryk Czarnecki

On no world:

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../exhaustion-of-all...

Soh Wei Yu

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after self/Self is exhausted, phenomena also needs to be exhausted

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· 3w

Soh Wei Yu

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“Dakpo Tashi Namgyal:

You have seen the essence of Nonmeditation if your realization of nonmeditation is free from an object of remembering or familiarization so that the savoring has dissolved. You have not seen the essence if you retain a sense of something that needs to be remembered or grown accustomed to.

You have perfected the strength of Nonmeditation if the subtlest dualistic perception has dissolved and you have brought all phenomena to the state of exhaustion, so you are always indivisible from original wakefulness. You have not perfected its strength if you experience even the slightest dualistic perception and you have not exhausted the phenomena of knowable objects.

Your thoughts have become meditation if every instance of all-ground consciousness, without being rejected, has dissolved into being dharmadhatu wisdom. They have not become meditation if you retain a subtle type of propensity for conceptual clinging and the subtle tarnish of savoring an experience.

The qualities have arisen if your body appears as the wisdom rupakaya of the rainbow body and your mind as the luminous dharmakaya. Thus the world is experienced as all-encompassing purity. The qualities have not arisen if you retain even the slightest impure perception regarding body and mind, the world and beings.

(Comments by Soh: ‘Clarifying the Natural State by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal is a good book, highly recommended. You can get it for $2 at https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../mahamudra...)

[4:27 PM, 9/6/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Interesting

[4:27 PM, 9/6/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I reread this part in mahamudra book

[4:27 PM, 9/6/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Dakpo tashi also related stage of nonmeditation with exhaustion of all phenomena and rainbow body

[4:27 PM, 9/6/2020] Soh Wei Yu: So their explanation seems similar

[4:28 PM, 9/6/2020] John Tan: ? Y is this interesting?

[4:28 PM, 9/6/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Dunno why i didnt notice that before.. maybe i forgot

[4:29 PM, 9/6/2020] John Tan: Appearances r not phenomena

[4:31 PM, 9/6/2020] John Tan: Exhaustion of phenomena means like the sense of observer being dissolved, the sense of object also dissapeared.

[4:38 PM, 9/6/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah..

[4:38 PM, 9/6/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Malcolm also said exhaustion of phenomena doesnt mean no more appearance

[4:39 PM, 9/6/2020] John Tan: Yes

[4:39 PM, 9/6/2020] John Tan: U should not have that sense by now also

[4:45 PM, 9/6/2020] John Tan: A few years post anatta, I do not have sense of objects and physicality....objects r deconstructed by contemplating DO and total exertion. Therefore there is no seer, no seeing and nothing seen.

I m now compiling the different nuance of total exertion in taoism, zen and yoga...🤣

[5:05 PM, 9/6/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. yeah i dont have sense of solid phenomena

[5:06 PM, 9/6/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Wow nice.. looking forward to reading 😂”

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· 3w

Mr. AA

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I've read that Buddhas have no perception from their own side, that rupakayas appear only from the perspective of beings to be "tamed". That would imply a total lack of appearances, all the while not falling into non-existence or a deep sleep type of state.

I like the idea that "no phenomena" does not mean "no appearance". Yet, that's not what the texts seem to be pointing to.

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Exhaustion of All Phenomena

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

Exhaustion of All Phenomena

Exhaustion of All Phenomena

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Mr. AA

Malcolm said that appearances do not cease even at the final stage/exhaustion of phenomena in the retreat. It is very clear from his teaching that ultimate Buddhahood is about apperceiving appearances as wisdom.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=21700...

Someone asked: Does "appearance" here mean the same thing it normally does? I am a little perplexed if so. How can a Buddha be said to perceive appearances? Don't appearances end when non-dual wisdom is completely realized? I thought that appearance implies a duality from wisdom itself and that Buddhas have eliminated that.

Malcolm replied:

A Buddhas appearances are wisdom.

Tom:

Sure. But I thought appearances have ended for Buddhas, no?

Malcolm:

No. What has ended for a Buddha are impure appearances.

Tom:

I thought that "appearance" implies a duality between the wisdom itself and the appearance of that wisdom.

Malcolm:

That is true only below the 13th bhumi. The difference between a buddha on the thirteenth bhumi and the eleventh and twelfth bhumi is that buddhas on the thirteenth bhumi experience appearances as their own wisdom, whereas the lower two stages of buddhahood experience wisdom and the appearances as distinct.

https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../clarification...

Malcolm:

Malcolm wrote:

[Quoting gad rgyangs: in the yeshe sangthal you dissolve all appearances into the "vast dimension of emptiness", out of which "instant presence" arises. This is cosmological as well as personal, since the two scales are nondual.]

'The way that great transference body arises:

when all appearances have gradually been exhausted,

when one focuses one’s awareness on the appearances strewn about

on the luminous maṇḍala of the five fingers of one’s hand,

the environment and inhabitants of the universe

returning from that appearance are perceived as like moon in the water.

One’s body is just a reflection,

self-apparent as the illusory body of wisdom;

one obtains a vajra-like body.

One sees one’s body as transparent inside and out.

The impure eyes of others cannot see one’s body as transparent,

but only the body as it was before...'

Shabkar, Key to One Hundred Doors of Samadhi

Outer appearances do not disappear even when great transference body is attained. What disappears are the inner visions, that is what is exhausted, not the outer universe with its planets, stars, galaxies, mountains, oceans, cliffs, houses, people and sentient beings.

M

Also:

gad rgyangs wrote:

When all appearances cease, what are you left with?

Malcolm wrote:

They never cease....

Samayasattva/Jnanasattva - Page 2 - Dharma Wheel

DHARMAWHEEL.NET

Samayasattva/Jnanasattva - Page 2 - Dharma Wheel

Samayasattva/Jnanasattva - Page 2 - Dharma Wheel

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Soh Wei Yu

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Patryk Czarnecki Also as I explained in the article I sent you, awakening is the opposite of "disappointing, scary, and tragic", it is truly marvellous beyond measure and imagination.

The article I sent you that I wrote:

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../why-awakening-is-so...

Why awakening is so worth it

From time to time, people ask me why should they seek awakening. I say, awakening will be the best thing that happen in your life, I guarantee it. It is worth whatever effort you put into it. You won't regret it. Or as Daniel M. Ingram said, "Would I trade this for anything? Maybe world peace, but I would have to think about it. Until then, this totally rocks, and missing out on it would be barking crazy from my point of view."

What is it like? I can only give a little preview, an excerpt of what I wrote taken from the AtR guide:

"Personally, I can say from direct experience that direct realization is completely direct, immediate, and non-intellectual, it is the most direct and intimate taste of reality beyond the realm of imagination. It far exceeds one’s expectations and is far superior to anything the mind can ever imagine or dream of. It is utter freedom. Can you imagine living every moment in purity and perfection without effort, where grasping at identity does not take hold, where there is not a trace or sense of 'I' as a seer, feeler, thinker, doer, be-er/being, an agent, a 'self' entity residing inside the body somewhere relating to an outside world, and what shines forth and stands out in the absence of a 'self' is a very marvellous, wondrous, vivid, alive world that is full of intense vividness, joy, clarity, vitality, and an intelligence that is operating as every spontaneous action (there is no sense of being a doer), where any bodily actions, speech and thoughts are just as spontaneous as heart beating, fingernails growing, birds singing, air moving gently, breath flowing, sun shining - there is no distinction between ‘you are doing action’/’you are living’ and ‘action is being done to you’/’you are being lived’ (as there is simply no ‘you’ and ‘it’ - only total and boundless spontaneous presencing).

This is a world where nothing can ever sully and touch that purity and perfection, where the whole of universe/whole of mind is always experienced vividly as that very purity and perfection devoid of any kind of sense of self or perceiver whatsoever that is experiencing the world at a distance from a vantagepoint -- life without ‘self’ is a living paradise free of afflictive/painful emotions (note: I am not proclaiming a state of Buddhahood or

Arahantship where all traces of mental afflictions are totally obliterated, see

this link http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../buddhahood-end-of...

, and Traditional Buddhist Attainments: Arahantship and Buddhahood in the original AtR

guide https://app.box.com/s/157eqgiosuw6xqvs00ibdkmc0r3mu8jg for more details), where every color, sound, smell, taste, touch and detail of the world stands out as the very boundless field of pristine awareness, sparkling brilliance/radiance, colorful, high-saturation, HD, luminous, heightened intensity and shining wonderment and magicality, where the surrounding sights, sounds, scents, sensations, smells, thoughts are seen and experienced so clearly down to the tiniest details, vividly and naturally, not just in one sense door but all six, where the world is a fairy-tale like wonderland, revealed anew every moment in its fullest depths as if you are a new-born baby experiencing life for the first time, afresh and never seen before, where life is abundant with peace, joy and fearlessness even amidst the apparent chaos and troubles of life, and everything experienced through all the senses far surpasses any beauty previously experienced, as if the universe is like heaven made of glittering gold and jewels, experienced in complete gapless directness without separation, where life and the universe is experienced in its intense lucidity, clarity, aliveness and vivifying presence not only without intermediary and separation but without center and boundaries - infinitude as vast as an endless night sky is actualized every moment, an infinitude that is simply the vast universe appearing as an empty, distanceless, dimensionless and powerful presencing, where the mountains and stars on the horizon stands out no more distant than one’s breath, and shines forth as intimately as one’s heartbeat, where the cosmic scale of infinitude is actualized even in ordinary activities as the entirety of the universe is always participating as every ordinary activity including walking and breathing and one’s very body (without a trace of an ‘I’ or ‘mine’) is as much the universe/dependent origination in action and there is nothing outside of this boundless exertion/universe, where the purity and infinitude of the marvellous world experienced through being cleansed in all doors of perception is constant. (If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is: Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern. - William Blake)

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You know all the Mahayana Sutras (e.g. Vimalakirti Sutra), old Zen talks about seeing this very earth as pure land and all the Vajrayana talks about the point of tantra as the pure vision of seeing this very world, body, speech and mind in its primordial unfabricated purity as the Buddha field, palace, mandala, mantra and deity? Now you truly get it, you realise everything is really just like that when experienced in its primordial purity and perfection, and that the old sages have not been exaggerating at all. It is as much a literal and precise description of the state of consciousness as it is a metaphor. As I told John Tan before, Amitabha Sutra’s description of pure land resembles my living experience here and now. “To me it just means anatta. When what’s seen, tasted, touched, smelled are in clean purity, everywhere is pure land.” - John Tan, 2019. "If one is free from background self, all manifestations appear in clean purity in taste. Impurities from what I know come from mental constructions." – John Tan, 2020

This is a freedom that is free from any artificially constructed boundaries and limitations. And yet, this boundlessness does not in any way lead to the dissociation from one’s body, instead one feels more alive than ever as one’s very body, one grows ever more somatic, at home and intimate as one’s body. This is not a body normally conceived of, as the boundaries of an artificially solidified body that stands separated from the universe, dissolve into energetic streams of aliveness dancing and pulsating throughout the body in high energy and pleasure, as well as sensations of foot steps, movement, palm touching an object, where the body is no longer conflated with a constructed boundary of ‘inside’ and ‘outside’, ‘self’ or ‘other’, where no trace of an ‘inside’ and an ‘outside’ can be found in one’s state of consciousness - there’s only one indivisible, boundless and measureless world/mind - only this infinitude of a dynamic and seamlessly interconnected dance that we call ‘the universe’. This is better than any passing peak experiences be they arisen spontaneously, in meditation or through the use of psychedelic substances. And yet, despite experiencing life to it fullest every moment without any veils, in complete openness and utter nakedness, nothing gains a foothold in consciousness, for as vivid as they are, they leave no trace just as a bird leaves no tracks in the sky, an empty and lucid display such as a gust of wind and the glittery reflections of moon on the ocean waves - appearing but nothing ‘there’ or anywhere. All these words and descriptions I just wrote came very easily and spontaneously in a very short time as I am simply describing my current state of experience that is experienced every moment. I am not being poetic here but simply being as direct and clear as possible about what is immediately experienced. And this is only a figment that I am describing. If I were to tell you more of what this is like, you would not believe it. But once you enter this gateless realm you shall see that words always pale in comparison."

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