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So I investigated that feeling. Asking myself who is feeling it? Is it solid like a normal ruler 
or just a feeling that can stretch and contract like a bendy ruler? And I played with this feeling. Seeing if I could bend it at all. And suddenly, it was like someone pushed water out of my ear, but it was my mind out of my entire head. Like a blockage had been removed inside my head and everything could flow through my head unobstructed. I felt light. Also, I sincerely requested earlier that Green Tara come grant me blessings of wisdom (I go to a Tibetan Gelug temple) and I had a sense of having received help, like a parent pushing you from behind on your bike with training wheels lol. Cant really describe it in any other way.
or just a feeling that can stretch and contract like a bendy ruler? And I played with this feeling. Seeing if I could bend it at all. And suddenly, it was like someone pushed water out of my ear, but it was my mind out of my entire head. Like a blockage had been removed inside my head and everything could flow through my head unobstructed. I felt light. Also, I sincerely requested earlier that Green Tara come grant me blessings of wisdom (I go to a Tibetan Gelug temple) and I had a sense of having received help, like a parent pushing you from behind on your bike with training wheels lol. Cant really describe it in any other way.On my drive back, I also realized that “hearing is only the sound”. There was no such thing as hearing or hearer, the only thing that was perceived and UNDENIABLE was the PRESENCE of the sound of the wind. It was like the hearing/hearer vanished into thin air, or had never been there at all more accurately. This knowledge was a bit strong and overwhelming, like when you are in a dream and realize you’re flying, and keep expecting to wake up. Like its too good to be true and you are just in awe of this. But like I said this perception/knowledge has stayed atleast through several days, and I have confirmed it with sights, sensations, and even thoughts (this was the trickiest one for me before, I had a very quick active mind good at maintaining the illusion of seer/seeing/seen).
Soh Wei Yu encouraged me to investigate and challenge the seer-seeing-seen structure and over the last few days it has only been reconfirmed over and over again that this structure was always deluded. Looking back, there was a sort of murkiness/lack of clarity about experience that gave rise to the assumption that there was a separation between “I” and “everything else”. But now, everything feels clear, immediate, instantaneous, direct, and uncluttered.
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Soh Wei Yu
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Sounds
good but you have to discern for yourself if both stanzas are
thoroughly clear as experiential insight. Some may skew to second stanza
before first matures or vice versa.
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
Mark Lopez
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Soh Wei YuI
think previous nondual experiences/insights helped me see first stanza.
There was thinking, seeing etc. but no “I” behind it. But I still
lacked realization of second stanza due to a subtle separation of
awareness/manifestation. Even though I knew there was no “I” behind
doing the hearing, there was still not enough clarity to understand
“hearing” was no different than “sound”. I was still subtly conceiving
of something called “hearing” which was doing itself without an I. But
after my recent breakthrough there is clarity, no more hearing. Just
undeniable, immediate, instant sound.
Soh Wei Yu
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Mark Lopez How about intensity of luminosity? And did you go through I AM phase before?
Mark Lopez
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Soh Wei YuBy
luminosity do you mean the undeniable fact that each object is
present/known by itself (not by a perceiver/mind)? If so, that is very
evident and bright. The presence of objects is strong. It’s funny
because in a way, there is not a sense of “being alone”.
I
am not sure if I ever went through a long “I AM” stage. I had some
intense experiences of subject/object dissolution and strong sense of
being. In those experiences, it felt like everything was undeniably
happening, like extreme presence/more real than real life. Like the
polar opposite of the feeling in a dream/derealization. But these were
short experiences followed by unstable phases of impersonality, then
unstable nondual. Not sure if that counts as I Am phase.
Soh Wei Yu
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Mark Lopez I see. The intensity of luminosity is also important. Also see https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../pellucid-no-self... , https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-transient... , https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../i-was-having...
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Pellucid No-Self, Non-Doership
Soh Wei Yu
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It's the purpose of vipassana practice accompanied with anatta insight https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../thusnesss...
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Thusness's Vipassana
Mark Lopez
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Soh Wei YuI
asked my teacher (Gelug) what should I do if I have had strong insight
and some calm abiding, but these two are separate? For example, I am
able to have strong insights outside of formal sitting, just
experiencing the world and investigating the senses walking around or
sitting idly. And also I am able to sit calmly in formal meditation, but
insight is not sharp. Insight and calm are separate for me.
He
said as a beginner you will have trouble uniting calm and insight. As a
beginner, if you try to introduce insight too early, it will take you
away from your concentration into the object (like breath sensation) and
away from your calm abiding. He recommended working on investigation
and calm separately, until the point where calm abiding is joyful and
effortless, like you can do it for like 3,4,5 hours at a time if you
wanted to (right now I can only do max one hour sitting in calm). Then
you can try incorporating insight into it. Do you think it would make
sense to try to use all sensations/vipassana as an object to develop
calm abiding further, or I should just focus on those related to breath?
Soh Wei Yu
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Mark Lopez When sitting, good to do anapanasati. That can also be vipassana and good way to actualize anatta and calm abiding.
What do you mean by insight is not sharp when sitting calmly? The sense of a center returns?
In
2013, Thusness said, "Anapanasati is good. After your insight [into
anatta], master a form of technique that can bring you to that the state
of anatta without going through a thought process." and on choiceless
awareness Thusness further commented, "Nothing wrong with choice. Only
problem is choice + awareness. It is that subtle thought, the thought
that misapprehend (Soh: falsely imputes/fabricates) the additional
"agent"."
“A
state of freedom is always a natural state, that is a state of mind
free from self/Self. You should familiarize yourself with the taste
first. Like doing breathing meditation until there is no-self and left
with the inhaling and exhaling... then understand what is meant by
releasing.”
“When
we practice zazen our mind always follows our breathing. When we
inhale, the air comes into the inner world. When we exhale, the air goes
out to the outer world. The inner world is limitless, and the outer
world is also limitless. We say “inner world” or “outer world,” but
actually there is just one whole world. In this limitless world, our
throat is like a swinging door. The air comes in and goes out like
someone passing through a swinging door. If you think, “I breathe,” the
“I” is extra. There is no you to say “I.” What we call “I” is just a
swinging door which moves when we inhale and when we exhale. It just
moves; that is all. When your mind is pure and calm enough to follow
this movement, there is nothing: no “I,” no world, no mind nor body;
just a swinging door.” - Shunryu Suzuki https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../when-we-practice...
2007:
(10:31 PM) AEN: clarity is like breathing meditation but extending to everything isnt it
(10:32 PM) Thusness: clarity is not like breathing...is a form of awareness that is crystal clear.
(10:32 PM) AEN: hmm ya i mean awareness of breathing
(10:33 PM) Thusness: if it is crystal clear, then there is only breathing but it is not object and subject fusing into one.
(10:33 PM) Thusness: It is breathing itself alone exist. There is no other and this is perfectly clear. 
(10:34 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:34 PM) Thusness: then this is awareness.
(10:34 PM) AEN: when i am doing meditation i just feel the breathing lor.. i didnt tink of subject or object
(10:34 PM) Thusness: when u have the slightest sense of self, then the kung fu isn't there yet.
(10:34 PM) AEN: icic
(10:35
PM) Thusness: it must be in the form of realisation that there is
really no such thing at all. Even a non-dual experience will find it
difficult to to make it unless there are few years of diligent practice.
This is then true progress.
2005:
[22:34] <^john^> samadhi is not experience pure awareness.
[22:34] <^john^> experiencing.
[22:34] <ZeN`n1th> icic then wats the difference
[22:35] <^john^> the only difference is the 'I'.
[22:35] <^john^> Buddha is so serious and has spoken so much, we have taken it too lightly.
[22:35] <^john^>
[22:36] <ZeN`n1th> oic..
[22:37] <^john^> so far what do u understand about awareness?
[22:38] <ZeN`n1th> hmm like u say lor... awareness is never lost
[22:39] <^john^> what is awareness right now?
[22:39] <^john^> when u say thought arises, is thought awareness?
[22:41] <ZeN`n1th> thought is not awareness, but there is awareness of thought
[22:41] <ZeN`n1th> lol
[22:41] <^john^> so what is thought?
[22:42] <^john^> and where is awareness?
[22:42] <^john^> same like taste, is the taste awareness?
[22:45] <ZeN`n1th> i think u cant define awareness to a 'thing' 
[22:45] <^john^> so is taste or thought a thing?
[22:47] <^john^> u practice meditation now right?
[22:47] <^john^>
[22:47] <ZeN`n1th> never practise for quite some time
[22:47] <ZeN`n1th> taste or thought is not a thing
[22:47] <ZeN`n1th> lol
[22:49] <^john^> so do u think awareness is a party behind thinking thought or experiencing taste?
[22:49] <^john^>
[22:49] <^john^> lol
[22:49] <ZeN`n1th> no
[22:49] <^john^> taste is not a thing, then what is it?
[22:50] <ZeN`n1th> just the awareness
[22:50] <ZeN`n1th> lol
[22:50] <^john^> experience this awareness with totality.
[22:50] <ZeN`n1th> ok
[22:53] <^john^> what meditation is peculiar to buddhism?
[22:54] <ZeN`n1th> hmm... dunnu leh
[22:54] <ZeN`n1th> i dunnu much about other religion s meditation
[22:55] <^john^> insight meditation. Mindfulness
[22:55] <ZeN`n1th> oic
[22:55] <ZeN`n1th> they dont practise mindfulness?
[22:56] <^john^> nope...most is concentration.
[22:56] <^john^> not so much on awareness.
[22:56] <ZeN`n1th> then how come they can have a glimpse on buddha nature/pure awareness
[22:57] <^john^> why not, every moment we can have glimpse of awareness.
[22:58] <^john^> if u do not get trapped in concepts and label and start to feel ur breath now
[22:58] <^john^> what is breath actually without concepts
[22:58] <^john^> feel it
[22:58] <^john^>
[22:59] <^john^> experience the movements, the details and tell me like a layman.
[23:02] <ZeN`n1th> movement like slow or fast ??
[23:02] <ZeN`n1th> lol
[23:03] <^john^> anything.
The only thing that buddha doesn't even know is ur very awareness that
is pure and not contaminated by thoughts. It can be as simple as
breathing.
The only thing that buddha doesn't even know is ur very awareness that
is pure and not contaminated by thoughts. It can be as simple as
breathing. [23:04] <^john^> What IS has no intention.
[23:04] <^john^> there is no past nor future.
[23:04] <^john^> there is no anticipation.
[23:04] <^john^> how could anyone know.
[23:06] <^john^> actual texture, shape, and form of sensations.
[23:06] <^john^> u must be able to touch the actual texture, shape and form of awareness.
[23:07] <ZeN`n1th> icic
[23:07] <^john^> luminosity is in these forms, colors, texture, shape.
[23:08] <^john^> when we say Awareness is formless.
[23:08] <^john^> it doesn't mean is something somewhere but is formless.
[23:08] <^john^> means completely nothing at all.
[23:08] <^john^> lol
[23:08] <ZeN`n1th> hahaha
[23:08] <ZeN`n1th> icic
[23:09] <^john^> do not even create an image.
[23:09] <^john^> NOTHING.
[23:09] <^john^> but in all it arises.
[23:09] <^john^> and instantaneously gone.
[23:09] <^john^> and rises.
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Quotes of Shunryu Suzuki
Soh Wei Yu
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2005:
[21:08]
<ZeN`out> hi.. is it conducive to practise anapanasati in an
environment with some smell or i should go to a place without any smell?
[21:09] <^john^> at first without, later when u r clear, it doesn't matter.
[21:09] <^john^> u will experience that the smell is You. From a relative truth perspective.
[21:11] <ZeN`out> icic...
[21:11] <^john^> from absolute truth, smell is Thus.
[21:11] <ZeN`out> oic..
[21:11] <^john^> the practice should be first someone is aware of the breath
[21:12] <^john^> then focused
[21:12] <^john^> but be extremely clear of the breath
[21:12] <^john^> means no thoughts of the breath
[21:12] <ZeN`out> icic..
[21:12] <^john^> then know that only the breath.
[21:12] <ZeN`out> can thoughts and focus co-exist? or isit that when we are focused no thoughts can exist?
[21:13] <^john^> if one gets into absorption, then it becomes samatha
[21:13] <^john^> yes
[21:13] <^john^> but it is subtle.
[21:13] <ZeN`out> yes to ?
[21:13] <^john^> only when a person reaches certain stage then he understands.
[21:13] <^john^> it seems to be mutually exclusive but it isn't
[21:14] <^john^> but if one enters into absorption, then different thing.
[21:14] <ZeN`out> oic... so what happens when one enters absorption
[21:15] <^john^> that is self-forgetting, it is not pure awareness.
[21:15] <^john^> in pure awareness, there is merely the process, there is no subject nor object
[21:16] <ZeN`out> so what i am practising is leads to absorption?
[21:17] <^john^> not exactly depending on u.
[21:17] <^john^> but first build the strength of focus first.
[21:17] <^john^> concentration
[21:17] <ZeN`out> icic..
[21:17] <^john^> but feel the breath, the realness, the presence, the clarity
[21:18] <^john^> without thought
[21:18] <^john^> just the breath
[21:18] <^john^> if u can do that, then tell me
[21:18] <ZeN`out> icic
[21:18] <^john^> don't worry about whether the speed of ur breath
[21:18] <^john^> whether it is thick or thin
[21:18] <^john^> not about that
[21:18] <^john^> don't worry about that at all.
[21:18] <ZeN`out> hmm ya i know 
[21:18] <^john^> show no concern
[21:19] <^john^> u can breath as hard as u can, it doesn't matter
[21:19]
<ZeN`out> my dharma teacher told us not to be concerned even if a
person completely stops breathing ... thats y i was curious and i check
on my breathe lol
lol[21:19] <^john^> as long as u can feel the vividness, the clarity
[21:19] <^john^> when the breath stops it is different
[21:19] <^john^>
[21:20] <^john^> if u r able to do it, then it is different.
[21:20] <ZeN`out> icic
[21:20] <^john^> or if it is so subtle that u can't really feel it, it is different
[21:20] <ZeN`out> icic
[21:21] <^john^> when happened when u r so concentrated on ur breath, then there is no breath?
[21:22] <ZeN`out> huh me?
[21:22] <^john^> yeah
[21:23] <^john^> i mean what if there is no breath and u r concentrating on the breath.
[21:23] <^john^> what will happen?
[21:23] <ZeN`out> then just continue to focus? lol
[21:24] <^john^> if the seed is there, then u will know.
[21:25] <ZeN`out> oic
[21:25] <ZeN`out> when there is no object to focus on, just remain mindful?
[21:26] <^john^> don't think of how.. just do it. There should be no anticipation.
Mark Lopez
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Soh Wei YuOkay good, I will focus on breathing sensations to develop calm abiding further then.
No,
I wasnt trying to say that the center returns. What I was trying to say
is that investigation/inquiry/insight practice is how I achieved the
strong experiences of nonduality, and later on resulted in
realization/insight. But this requires activity, fulll effort,
challenging seer-seeing-seen, investigating, trying to actively
challenge and cut through wrong conceptual thinking. This is how I made
progress and got results.
On
the other hand, my calm abiding practice feels separate from this
insight practice . It is NOT about effort, challenging seer-seeing-seen,
or investigating. It is simply resting and dropping all effort and
investigating.
So
my question for my teacher (and also you) was, why are they separate
practices for me, if we are supposed to have a unity of calm and
insight? Have I been doing it wrong/inefficiently? It seems like the
answer is no, that is okay. I need to develop calm abiding further
through focusing on breath sensations, and then eventually I will be
able to do calm abiding and investigation simultaneously. My insight
will be more powerful and deeper, and I will be able to actualize
DO/emptiness. Is this accurate?
Soh Wei Yu
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Mark Lopez
Yes that sounds good. After some time, anatta will be very clear and
stable throughout without needing much thought or contemplation, be it
sitting or even in daily life. It will just be naturally anatta. Get to
that stability first, through consistent daily practice, anapanasati,
etc.
Then the next challenge is what Yin Ling said:
Shared with Your friends
Yin Ling
·
To
me, the most difficult part of meditation is not non-dual, not anatta,
not luminosity, those are straight forward, once the understanding and
view is there the experience arises quickly and stabilises with
practice.
Experience is
always hyper HD and vivid for me like nothing I have ever seen before
insight. So I don’t get v excited over ppl describing the non dual
states; psychedelic hyper sensory states; it’s like a given for myself,
and I believe others who are stable here in non dual. No big deal.
Personally , The aspect that I spent most of my time and effort (and still working on) is..
Fusing the “arising” , the vivid luminosity of each senses with its emptiness, its release.
Cultivating the ability of mind to see presence at the same time seeing absence.
fusing the two extremes into the Middle Way.
The actualise Tsongkhapa last verse in 3 principle aspects.
Actualising luminosity of “in the seen only the seen” and its empty taste - ”in the seen nothing is seen” together at once.
When
I first taste the fusing of both after a lot (a lot) of practice, it
tasted like a huge release, like many lifetimes of karmic build up now
release, feels like liberation, feels like the sticks of fire burning
off. Immense relief. One actually can feel it especially if you have a
lot of energy.
I believe this is the fusion of dependent origination and emptiness into Middle Way experientially.
So when someone speaks about it experientially, it makes me sit up ! 
...
What is mind?
Rub your hand together,
feel that?
That is mind!
·
Mind is luminous, bright, and knowing.
Mind is empty of stains, stains of inherent existence.
Every arising is the mind,
Each touch,
Each sound,
Each taste,
My hands rubbing each other,
All my mind.
So clear, so vivid, so luminous.
Each arising is empty of stains,
Each arising is a dependent arising,
Each arising is a release all conditions into a display of emptiness,
Nothing there, yet so vivid.
Each arising is my true nature. Vivid and empty. Intimate as ever, I express myself as no-thing.
The trees, cars, babies, mothers, ward,
Speaks the dharma again and again,
But they are not separate from me,
We are not separate,
Yet we are not apart.
Yet there’s no we, as there’s no them?
There’s no others!
How else to describe with words?
I do not know.
My body and mind understands it intimately,
The dharma, it speaks a language
Of love and magic
Yin Ling
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Mark Lopez just saw this, have been busy.. , thought of chiming in.
You
are generally doings right imo and slowly the two practices will
converge and there is something call a spacious samadhi or samadhi borne
of insight which abit like jhana but not exactly because in jhana the
mind freeze and cannot analyse at all (for me) whilst in samadhi borne
of insight the mind is very clear sharp and aware.
It can last in this state for a long time, hours even. mind is v still with the right view in place.
You
don’t necessarily need to use breath unless you want to, you can
meditate on the mind itself for samadhi. Just the knowing. Post anatta
you will know what I’m saying.
I
prefer this as mind is spacious and more suitable for my energy .. I
have energy imbalance when I do any focusing on small area like breath
because my energy follows my mind.
So
I meditate on mind for awhile, analyse the insights of anatta,
emptiness, dependent arising, luminosity , interrelation etc .. to
clear the mind up, then rest in this view for as long as samadhi allows.
If
it starts getting chaotic.. with mundane thoughts coming up, I push up
the intensity of concentration again, turn towards settling the mind,
catching thoughts carefully .. meditate on the knowing mind… abit like
tighten the string of my violin. thoughts hardly can arise if I do that
.Once it’s stable, I let it go very slowly and check in often to see
how’s the mind like.
Then
you will find yourself going into samadhi very rapidly .. a few breaths
and you are in samadhi and insight conjoined. It is powerful.. the view
of emptienss and dependent arising can carry into the day powerfully
for up to half the day or even more until ur next sit depending on how
high quality the meditstion is.
That’s from my personal experience
Mark Lopez
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Soh Wei YuAwesome.
It’s funny, I had an intuition that anatta is just the start. Like
before you were handcuffed (self) and now your hands are free (anatta).
But you still have to do the work of plowing the field! Gotta stabilize
anatta and then go deeper. Because right now I still have that feeling
of needing to reconfirm anatta, like you feel the need to check if
reality is still anatta. Like the habit of pushing up your glasses when
you first start wearing contact lenses. You keep confirming the glasses
aren’t there anymore!
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Soh Wei Yu
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Mark Lopez
“To be more exact, the so called 'background' consciousness is that
pristine happening. There is no a 'background' and a 'pristine
happening'. During the initial phase of non-dual, there is still
habitual attempt to 'fix' this imaginary split that does not exist. It
matures when we realized that anatta is a seal, not a stage; in hearing,
always only sounds; in seeing always only colors, shapes and forms; in
thinking, always only thoughts. Always and already so. -:)” - JT https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../mistaken-reality...
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Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am"
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Soh Wei Yu
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Also since you are into gelug, I wanted to share this with you:
[5/7/19, 1:44:49 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Sonam Thakchoe (The Two Truths Debate: Tsongkhapa and Gorampa on the Middle Way):
"Tsongkhapa
regards the nondual realization of ultimate truth as an epistemic
event... ...Tsongkhapa does not hold the achievement of nondual wisdom
as equivalent to the cessation of cognitive activity...
Tsongkhapa's
description of the way the meditator arrives at nondual understanding
is as follows. The cognitive agent experiences a fusion of subjectivity
and its object, which refer here not to self and outside world but
rather to elements within the meditator's own psychophysical aggregates.
The meditator remains introspective, not engaging the outside world,
but the outside world as such does not disappear. What occurs is instead
a total cessation of the dualities between subject I and object mine,
between thinker and thought, between feeler and feelings, between mind
and body, between seeing and seen, and so forth. Initially a meditator
perceives, for instance, that in each act of seeing, two factors are
always present: the object seen and the act of seeing it. While each
single act of seeing involves dissolution, the object seen and the act
of seeing actually consist of numerous physical and mental processes
that are seen to dissolve serially and successively. Eventually, the
meditator also notices the dissolution of the dissolution itself.
In
other words, the meditator first realizes the fluctuating and
transitory character of the five aggregates, which is then followed by
further realization of the aggregates as empty and selfless, and finally
by the realization of the emptiness of even the empty and selfless
phenomena. Nondual knowledge is thus arrived at, in Tsongkhapa's view,
through the direct experience of seeing the truths within one's own
aggregates, rather than being convinced of the truth of certain
abstractions through rational argument or persuasion. Since the process
here is a cognitive experience that operates entirely within the domain
of one's psychophysical aggregates, it is therefore an epistemic but not
a metaphysical nonduality.
This
is how, according to Tsongkhapa, an arya has direct nonconceptual and
nondual access to the transcendent nature of his own five psychophysical
aggregates during meditative equipoise. In the wake of meditative
equipoise, an arya engages with dualistic worldly activities, such as
taking part in philosophical discourse, practicing different social
conventions, and so on. The arya will thus make use of socio-linguistic
conventions, but since the arya has eradicated all reifying tendencies,
even these worldly dualistic engagements will be seen as consistent with
nondual wisdom. Both non-dual and dual wisdoms, especially in the case
of a buddha, Tsongkhapa argues, are fully commensurate."
"Both
Tsong khapa and Go rampa describe non-dual knowledge as being like a
process of mixing water. They argue that the fusion between subjectivity
and objectivity, from the meditator's point of view, reaches its climax
in their non-dual state in a way that is like mixing clean water from
two different jars by pouring it all into one jar. Tsong khapa for
example argues: "from the vantage point of the wisdom that directly
realises ultimate reality, there is not even the slightest duality
between object and the object-possessing consciousness. Like mixing
water with water, [yogi] dwells in the meditative equipoise".'
Tsongkhapa insists, however, that this metaphor should not be taken too
far or too literally. It refers only to the cognitive process that
occurs in total dissolution, and to the experience associated with that
process, and must not be taken to represent the achivement of a
metaphysical unity."
“So,
as far as Tsong khapa is concerned, there is no contradiction in
claiming that, from the empirical standpoint, on the one hand, non-dual
wisdom constitutes the subjective pole of consciousnesses with ultimate
truth as its objective counterpart; from the ultimate vantage point, on
the other hand, non-dual wisdom and ultimate truth, "are free from the
duality of act (bya ba) and object acted upon (byed pa)".
In
the non-dual state, even the cognitive interplay between subject and
object appears, from the meditator's point of view, completely to cease.
This is because, as Tsong khapa points out, "duality of act and object
acted upon is posited strictly from the perspective of empirical
cognition".
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Although
the dual appearances of subject and object completely dissolve from the
perspective of non-dual wisdom, and thus the meditator does not
experience the mutual interaction between distinct and separate
elements—between the seer and the seen—the meditator nonetheless engages
in an act of 'mere seeing'. As the Buddha explains to Bahiya:
In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the
heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In
reference to the cognised, only the cognised. That is how you should
train yourself [Ud I. 10]... then Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that.
When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there
is no you there, you are neither here not yonder nor between the two.
This, just this, is the end of stress [Ud I. 101.
The
experience of 'mere seeing' in a non-dual form is valid only when it is
empirically grounded and when there is cognitive activity occurring
between non-dual wisdom and non-dual ultimate truth.”
"Although
all empirically given truths such as the aggregate of form, feelings
etc., are contingently produced and have diverse conventional
characters, all of them, according to Tsong khapa, are ultimately empty
of the inherent arising. They share the universal characteristic (ro
gcig, eka-rasa), literally, the same 'taste'. The Buddha, for example,
makes this statement: "just as the great ocean has but one taste, the
taste of salt, even so does this dharma and discipline have but one
taste, the taste of release" [AN VIII.19].
The
Samadhirajasatra (ting nge 'dzin rgyal po'i mdo) tells us: "By knowing
one all are known. And by seeing one all are seen. Despite many things
are said about [ultimate truth] in the conventional terms, no
haughtiness should arise from it",' and furthermore, "Just as you have
recognised ('du shes) personality, even so you should apply the same
insight with respect to all [phenomena]. All phenomena are of the [same]
nature like a clear space".
In
the Gaganagamjasamadhi (Nam mkha'i mdzod kyi ting nge 'dzin), it is
stated that: "Whoever by meditating on one phenomenon knows all
phenomena as apprehensible like illusions and mirages, and knows them as
hollow, false and ephemeral will before long reach the summum bonum
(snying po) of enlightenment".
And
Aryadeva also tells us that "whosoever sees one is said to see all.
That which is emptiness of one is the emptiness of all" [VIII:191].
Referring to this last passage from Aryadeva, Candrakirti has this to say:
The
emptiness of the essence of form is itself the emptinesses of the
essences of aggregates such as feeling. Similarly, the emptiness of the
essence of eye-source is itself the emptinesses of the essences of all
twelve sources. Likewise, the emptiness of the essence of
eye-constituent is itself the emptinesses of the essences of all
eighteen constituents. Equally so are [the emptinesses of the essences
of] the infinite categories of things due to the distinct divisions in
things, spaces, times and references. For whatever is the emptiness of
the essence of one thing, is itself the emptinesses of the essences of
all things. In spite of the fact that jars and bowls for example are
distinct, space is not distinct. While things such as form are distinct,
insofar as they all lack of essential arising of the form etc., they
are not distinct. By understanding the lack the essential arising of
merely one phenomenon, one understands the lack of the essential arising
of all phenomena.'
Since
all phenomena are empty of any substance or essence, they are all
dependently arisen and relational entities. Tsong khapa agrees.' Yet to
endorse the claim that the ultimate nature of all phenomena is
fundamentally the same does not, in Tsong khapa's view, make one a
monist. While accepting this account of the ultimate nature of things,
Tsongkhapa remains committed to a pluralistic view. "A pluralistic view
of the world", as Kalupahana puts it, "is not incompatible with
dependent arising (pratityasamputpada).
Pluralism
in the context of dependent arising does not imply the existence of
self-contradictory truths. It need not necessarily lead to a notion of
an Absolute that transcends such self-contradictory truths. As far as
Tsong khapa is concerned, the ultimate reality of, for instance, the
table in front of my eyes, cannot be treated as simply identical with
the ultimate reality pertaining to the chair that I am sitting on. The
empty table cannot be the taken as identical with the empty chair since
the emptiness of the table is constitutive, not only of the empty table,
but of the empty conceptual-linguistic conventions imposed upon it as
well. Those conventions belong exclusively to the ultimate truth of the
table and are not present in the chair.
According
to Tsong khapa, however, conceding this much does not prevent one from
arguing for the universality of ultimate truth. Just as different
objects occupy different spaces, and yet the space those objects occupy
has the same 'non-obstructive' characteristic, so the ultimate realities
of both table and chair are different, notwithstanding the fact that
two ultimate realities have identical natures—they share 'the same
taste'. Both of these emptinesses imply insubstantiality and essenceless
in the negative sense, as well as dependently arisen and relational
nature in the affirmative sense."
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Also this is by John Tan from 2012:
Last
year, a forummer from the NewBuddhist forum (Albert Hong a.k.a.
Taiyaki) penetrated within a year the realization of I AM to non dual
and anatta. He is an avid reader of this blog.
Thusness wrote the following pointers for him:
"There are several points that maybe of help to Taiyaki:
1.
First there must be a deep conviction that arising does not need an
essence. That view of subjective essence is simply a convenient view.
2.
First emptying of self/Self does not necessarily lead to illusion-like
experience of reality. It does however allows experience to become
vivid, luminous, direct and non-dual.
3.
First emptying may also lead a practitioner to be attached to an
'objective' world or turns physical. The 'dualistic' tendency will
resurface after a period of few months so it is advisable to monitor
one's progress for a few months.
4.
Second emptying of phenomena will turn experience illusion-like but
take note of how emptying of phenomena is simply extending the same
"emptiness view" of Self/self.
5.
From these experiences and realizations, contemplate what is meant by
"thing", what is meant by mere construct and imputation.
6.
"Mind and body drop" are simply dissolving of mind and body
constructs. If one day the experience of anatta turns a practitioner to
the attachment of an 'objective and actual' world, deconstruct
"physical".
7.
There is a relationship between "mental constructs", energy,
luminosity and weight. A practitioner will experience a release of
energies, freedom, clarity and feel light and weightless deconstructing
'mental constructs'.
8.
Also understand how the maha experience of interpenetration and
non-obstruction is related to deconstructions of inherent view.
9.
No body, no mind, no dependent origination, no nothing, no something,
no birth, no death. Profoundly deconstructed and emptied! Just vivid
shimmering appearances as Primordial Suchness in one whole seamless
unobstructed-interpenetration."
---------
On another occasion, Thusness wrote (not to Taiyaki):
...Like
after anatta, as I have said many times the sense of externality and
physicality can still be very strong. My deconstruction process of
"externality" and "physicality" is actually based few questions: 1. Why
is mind which is "mental" is able to "interact" with something
"physical"? 2. Why does consciousness need conditions for its arising?
3. What is interaction? All these questions help stabilized my
experiences when I penetrated them in my own way.
Illusion
like realization (arose) when I contemplated "hereness" and "nowness"
until my mind was able to intuit the logic behind all these, then
experience becomes stable. However one can enter by experience to have a
taste of it...
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Advice for Taiyaki
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Also from my iphone notes:
Post anatta advice:
John tan:
John Tan's advise:
As
for those layman practitioners that for some reasons still prefer to go
on their own asking for some general guides post anatta insights, I
think they can focus on the 5 following points:
1.
Extend the insight of anatta, the de-reification process to all events
and phenomena. MMK comes handy here. It will help one investigate most
of the subtle assumptions we held to be "true" in a hypnotic way.
2.
Open up our body and go deeply into body-awareness. This is critical
imo. Less intellectual activities and more body-awareness. Post anatta
and along the path, due to the de-construction process, the energy
released from unconscious holding of our mental constructs can be quite
overwhelming. It may also be due to other reasons, for example,
attachment to non-dual experiences and as a result it will cause
discomfort to both our mind and body.
3.
So opening up our body is key at this phase. The imbalance can be
released by massage, non-inflammatory diet, qi gong, tai chi movements,
yoga or any other body awareness exercises. Just open up our body and
bring awareness to our body to complement the anatta insight and less
intellectual activities.
4.
If after that, the practitioner can intuit directly the relationship
between mind, prana and body and wish to pursue his knowledge further on
how the energy system works, they can then look for experienced
teachers in this space to guide them. U r not into this, hence, do not
advise ppl on what u r unsure and have no experience.
5. Lastly, bring the insight of anatta into our daily activities, meet conditions and engage.
�
....
[7:54 AM, 6/3/2021] John Tan: Not bad. He should relook these insights and experiences and ask the following:
1.
If everything is me, then the sense of "me" must also disappear at
that moment of experience. Otherwise one must mature the experience
into no-mind and then anatta as an insight.
2.
If later it is realized that there is no me/self/Self as an insight
and experience (anatta), then one must refine the view and question how
does the sense of me/self/Self arise in the first place?
3. Then bring this insight from the refinement of view into all phenomena and all actions.
4.
Therefore not only there is no seer in the seen just the seen, there
is no seeing and nothing seen. No self, no others and no aggregates.
5. If this is understood only as negations, then one is not free from extremes and all elaborations.
6.
Therefore conventionally, there is self, others, seer, seeing and
seen. There are causes and effects. There is arising, abiding and
ceasing and the only valid mode of arising is dependent arising.
7.
Point 1, 2, 3 praxis is on samatha and vipassana. Direct experience
and insights. To mature this insight of anatta, the path of analysis is
needed.
8. Point 4-6 thorough reasoning and analysis is added to relinquish cognitive obscuration.
9.
If he is interested, he should look into mmk (Nagarjuna's text
Mūlamadhyamakakārikā), it will expose the many hidden nuances and
subtleties of our cognitive obscurations. Patience is needed to get
used to the line of reasoning of Nagarjuna. But no need to get involved
in those polemics of the Tibetan schools.
[8:08
AM, 6/3/2021] John Tan: 10. Lastly one should understand the praxis of
the 2 stanzas and mmk are different. The 2 stanzas are using samatha
and vipassana to directly see through mental constructs to realize one's
nature (direct path) whereas mmk is via path of analysis and reasoning.
So when reading mmk, one must adhere strictly to the conventional 3
fold structure of seer-seeing-seen. See through the structures and
deconstruct step by step. The ultimate purpose and result are the same
except mmk exposes all the very subtle and hidden cognitives
obscurations that we are unable even post anatta insight. So if one is
interested in bringing anatta insight to maturity and perfection, mmk is
needed.
.....
Yin ling:
What works for me to deepen realisation after the initial insight of Anatta (no-self)
1) Don’t chase the luminance and brightness.
Let
go of the self slowly more and more by sensing deeply the senses non
dually. Keep showing the mind in the seen only the seen, and keep
showing the no self structure to the mind. It needs to learn.
It will naturally stabilise at a brilliant radiance without effort.
It is the self that blocks the radiance, not by intensely experiencing the radiance - this can cause energy imbalance.
2) sleep hours will drop but take it easy.
Have some sort of exercise to tire yourself out abit, go easy on caffeine,
if
not insomnia can happen due to the brightness, luminosity, and the
energy that breaks through from the dropping of self construct.
3) practice by sensing deeply the senses.
Let the intensity of senses become clear.
Be
there with the sound. (You will know what I mean, when you hear the
sound non dually, at first there will be some sort of vague background
due to imprint, let go of that background more and more)
4)
Sense deeply the body sensation one by one, sharpen the mind up like a
satipathanna practice, this will drop the sense of body outline
5) open up. Let go of the Center in the body.
Let
consciousness Spread out slowly, as much as you can, a little each
day. Meditate that way, sense the senses in separate little fireflies
like figure. See how confusion occurs by our mind collating and
separating these dependently originated sensations.
6)
shamatha is crucial. It will sharpen the insight and calm the mind. It
helps with the letting go of self and calm the afflictions. Have a few
good hours of pure shamatha a week will help greatly.
7)
when emptiness of personal self stabilise, move this insight to the
chair, table, bird, .. investigate how no-self happen to your body and
now investigate if you can extend to phenomenas.
Take
the time to stabilise personal self emptiness first, however if you
have bad energy imbalance like me, you probably will need to extend this
insight fast to empty phenomena for the energy to move. Or else it’s
agony.
8.
Talk to ppl with this insight to strengthen the confidence. It takes
time to build that confidence and faith. Read the teachings again and
again. Analyse why is it no-self.
Don’t
participate with those who says “there is no self, so no worries and
nothing to do”- they are clearly not in no-self lol it’s not like that.
9.
Remember there’s still a long way and a huge amount of practice to do.
Not to call yourself Arahant, not to think you are enlightened 
Hurry
and practice hard. Try not to be a “teacher” too soon, take too many
clients, and write too many books, before you are really clear and
safely on the other shore
Hurry
and practice hard. Try not to be a “teacher” too soon, take too many
clients, and write too many books, before you are really clear and
safely on the other shore Will write if there’s more I can remember.! Wish to hear from others too!
.....
Yin Ling
Yasmin
El-Hakim it can be abit hard to understand dependent arising and
emptiness via Nagarjuna and jay Garfield to be completely honest..
Just
because the way they use “consequences” statements to bring out the
lack of inherent existence suits a very high caliber person trained in
this kind of logic. Usually we don’t speak like that. So we might not
get it not bec we don’t understand Nagarjuna but we don’t understand
what they are trying to point
I think better to study some modern book.
Guy newland emptiness is quite good.
Also how to see yourself as you truly are from his holiness is quite good and clear language for modern ppl.
*
(Soh: the books she mentioned are here:
and
AMAZON.COM.AU
How to See Yourself as You Really Are
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Another note in my iPhone:
Some useful articles for post anatta contemplations:
First make sure insight into two stanzas of anatta is thoroughly clear, authenticated and stable from moment to moment.
After you stabilize anatta, you can look into these links:
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Putting aside Presence, Penetrate Deeply into Two Fold Emptiness
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Have
quality time and hours to sit and meditate everyday post anatta
(although meditation is 24/7 and should go beyond sitting, discipline to
sit is still important)
“When
you are luminous and transparent, don't think of dependent origination
or emptiness, that is [the contemplative practice for] post-equipoise.
When hearing sound, like the sound of flowing water and chirping bird,
it is as if you are there. It should be non-conceptual, no sense of body
or me, transparent, as if the sensations stand out. You must always
have some quality time into this state of anatta. Means you cannot keep
losing yourself in verbal thoughts, you got to have quality hours
dedicated to relaxation and experience fully without self, without
reservation." - John Tan, 2018
“The
only truth is to see the emptiness of the conventional. Equipoise
strictly speaking is free from all elaborations. That is exactly the
experiential insight and taste of anatta, in the seen just the seen,
therefore no seer, no seeing, nothing seen.” – John Tan, 2020
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Also
how intense is your luminosity now and is your no mind state* stable?
And what is it like experientially. Did you go through I AM phase
before?
*”
A monk asked Tozan, “When cold and heat come, how can we avoid them?”
Tozan said, “Why don’t you go to the place where there is no cold or heat?”
The monk said, “What is the place where there is no cold or heat?”
Tozan said, “When it’s cold, the cold kills you; when it’s hot, the heat kills you.”
This
is not advice to “accept” your situation, as some commentators have
suggested, but a direct expression of authentic practice and
enlightenment. Master Tozan is not saying, “When cold, shiver; when hot,
sweat,” nor is he saying, “When cold, put on a sweater; when hot, use a
fan.” In the state of authentic practice and enlightenment, the cold
kills you, and there is only cold in the whole universe. The heat kills
you, and there is only heat in the whole universe. The fragrance of
incense kills you, and there is only the fragrance of incense in the
whole universe. The sound of the bell kills you, and there is only
“boooong” in the whole universe…
~The Flatbed Sutra of Louie Wing, Ted Biringer
“
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Do read these three books recommended by Yin Ling and Kyle: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../all-thrangu...
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
All Thrangu Rinpoche 58 Books at $35 (only 60 cents per book!)
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Read the first link. Print out the second and third link and read many times. Most crucial insight post anatta
Equation between Emptiness and Dependent Origination - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../equation-between...
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Equation between Emptiness and Dependent Origination
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AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Book Recommendations for Post-Anatta
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Although i shared a lot on DO and emptiness, have some time exploring anatta first until thoroughly clear and stable.
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