Showing posts with label Mind Body Drop. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Mind Body Drop. Show all posts
Also see: U.G. Krishnamurti: The Mystique of Enlightenment (U.G. describes mind-body drop well)
    It is true that when no-self is actualized and when the body is deconstructed, a practitioner naturally experiences the mind-body drop. This means any sense or image of a body and a mind completely dissolves along with any senses of 'entrapment' or 'boundaries' at all.
    But do note that this is not a stage of meditative achievement. It is the result of wisdom-insight into the delusional constructions the conceives of a substantial body and a mind. In other words it is a form of self-view and view of a physical body being dissolved via prajna wisdom. Our notion of a solid body with fixed shape, boundaries, and substance deconstructs when we examine it and see that there is only flickering sensations without a center or boundary.
    After which, mind-body drop becomes natural and effortless, not a stage to be attained in meditation and lost outside meditation.
    And because this is so, *mind body drop is an experience in daily life*. It is not separated from your mind, body, and daily life. It does not mean your body and mind ceases - it is your deluded image of an inherently existing self, body and mind is being released, so your daily life is experienced in a liberated manner.
    Therefore it is erroneous to think of "mind-body drop" as a stage of achievement separated from this very experience of body-mind-world. It is only that this body-mind-world is seen as empty of anything graspable, transparent, and boundless. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.
    More importantly, by that stage, you realize that "Awareness" itself is an imputation on the entire flow of manifestation - "Awareness" itself does not exist separately apart from each momentary mind moment, whether it is a sense of formless presence in deep sleep, or the shapes and forms of each waking moment. In other words, Awareness is also empty of being an independent, separate self.
    Since this is the case, it is seen at this stage that the very notion of "true absolute Awareness" vs "phenomena" is a false, dualistic paradigm in the first place. There is only the one suchness of form and essence - in so far as each experience, each form, is both luminous clarity (Awareness) in essence and empty of self in nature. This is the nature of mind.
    - Soh Wei Yu
    • Soh Wei Yu This mind-body drop must later be transformed into Dharma Body, which is Maha total exertion, as I wrote in


      (4:48 PM) Thusness: for ven jue xing, it is the mind body drop and the crystal transparency of our Buddha mind.
      (4:49 PM) Thusness: how old is she?
      and what happen to her?

      (4:53 PM) Thusness: to progress into another phase, it is important to do exercise...hehe
      a healthy body for a healthy mind
      (4:53 PM) Thusness: after maturing of anatta insight, it is even more important.
      one cannot neglect that.
      (4:54 PM) Thusness: the body must also be able to support the realisation :P
      (4:55 PM) AEN: otherwise like wat u said that time too intense or something?
      (4:55 PM) Thusness: yes
      (4:56 PM) Thusness: after maturing of insight anatta and emptiness, sitting meditation becomes not that important but engagement becomes more important
      like practicing the 6 paramitas
      (4:57 PM) Thusness: but still need to sit.
      (4:58 PM) Thusness: that is similar to 'dong zhong xiu' (practice amidst movement)
      the experience becomes maha sort of experience.
      (4:59 PM) Thusness: means her experience of mind body drop is being transform into crystal transparency into maha
      (4:59 PM) Thusness: but it does mean that which state is higher or what...
      (5:00 PM) Thusness: that will be like Zen Master Bernie
    Dharma Body
    Soh Wei Yu By the way André A. Pais when have I wrote the OP? I can't remember...

  • Soh Wei Yu Oh, found it. I wrote it on Jun 4, 2013, 9:28:00 PM. About three months before I wrote Dharma Body article
  • Reply
  • 9w
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  • Darryl Snaychuk How very Vedanta sounding! <3 span="">

    • DS: The "experience of the mind-body drop" is indeed "the result of wisdom-insight into the delusional constructions that conceives of a substantial body and a mind"
  • Soh Wei Yu The Advaita teacher Rupert Spira also described the insight of mind-body drop in his early book, 'The Transparency of Things', although more from the One Mind perspective (his insights has since matured even further)


    "Taking our stand as this ever-present Consciousness, we can look again at our experience and see that we never actually experience the mind, the body or the world in the way that we usually conceive them.

    The mind consists of this current thought or image, whatever it is we are thinking or imagining in this moment. There is no container called the mind in which all our memories, hopes, fears and desires are stored. Whenever a memory, hope, fear or desire appears, it appears as a current thought.

    The idea that there is a mind which contains memories, hopes, fears and desires, is itself simply a thought that appears from time to time like any other thought, in Consciousness.

    There is no mind. The existence of a mind is simply an idea, a concept. It is a useful concept but it is not a fact. It is not an experience.

    Likewise we do not experience the body in the way we normally conceive it. In fact there is no body. There is a series of sensations and perceptions appearing in Consciousness. And from time to time there is a thought or in image of a ‘body, ’ which is considered to be the sum total of all these sensations and perceptions.

    However this thought appears in Consciousness in exactly the same way as the sensations and perceptions to which it refers, appear. This apparent body has no more substance than a thought. In fact that it was it is, an idea.

    If we stick closely to the actual experience of our bodily sensations, we see that they are shapeless and contourless. We may experience a visual perception of the skin and from several perceptions conceive a well-defined border which contains all other bodily sensations. However, this conception does not describe the reality of our experience.

    The visual perception of the surface of the body is one perception. A bodily sensation is another perception. When one of these perceptions is present the other is not. If they are both present, they are one perception, one experience.

    One perception cannot appear within another. All perceptions appear within Consciousness. We do not experience a sensation inside the body. The body is the experience of a sensation.

    We do not experience a sensation within a well-defined contour of skin. We experience a sensation within Consciousness and we experience a visual perception within Consciousness.

    We can explore this further by imagining what it would be like to draw our actual experience of the body at any given moment, on a piece of paper. Would it look anything like the body we normally conceive? Would it not be a collection of minute, amorphous abstract marks, floating on the page, without a shape or a border?

    Is not the actual experience of the body a collection of minute, amorphous, tingling sensations free-floating in the space of Consciousness?

    The continuity and coherence that we normally ascribe to the body, belong to Consciousness.

    In fact our true body is Consciousness. It is Consciousness that houses all the sensations that we normally refer to as ‘the body.’

    Our true body is open, transparent, weightless and limitless. It is inherently empty and yet contains all things within itself. That is why such an empty body is also inherently loving. It is the embrace of all things."
  • DS: Experience is shapes of knowledge which have no physical weight.
  • Geovani Geo Soh, but he is clearly positing a Consciusness.
    "It is Consciousness that houses all the sensations that we normally refer to as ‘the body.’"

    "Is not the actual experience of the body a collection of minute, amorphous, tingling sensations free-floating in the space of Consciousness?"

    " We experience a sensation within Consciousness and we experience a visual perception within Consciousness."
  • Soh Wei Yu Geovani Geo like I said, Rupert is describing from One Mind phase + deconstruction of mind/body, not anatta
  • Geovani Geo Yes, one mind
  • Soh Wei Yu How the phases play out may not be completely same and linear for each person. Some deconstruct mind/body in One Mind, in my case it was not long after anatta realization. So my opening post was a little misleading in saying that "More importantly, by that stage, you realize that "Awareness" itself is an imputation on the entire flow of manifestation" -- that need not be the case.

    Advice for Taiyaki

    Last year, a forummer from the NewBuddhist forum (Albert Hong a.k.a. Taiyaki) penetrated within a year the realization of I AM to non dual and anatta. He is an avid reader of this blog.

    Thusness wrote the following pointers for him:

    "There are several points that maybe of help to Taiyaki:

    1. First there must be a deep conviction that arising does not need an essence. That view of subjective essence is simply a convenient view.

    2. First emptying of self/Self does not necessarily lead to illusion-like experience of reality. It does however allows experience to become vivid, luminous, direct and non-dual.

    3. First emptying may also lead a practitioner to be attached to an 'objective' world or turns physical. The 'dualistic' tendency will resurface after a period of few months so it is advisable to monitor one's progress for a few months.

    4. Second emptying of phenomena will turn experience illusion-like but take note of how emptying of phenomena is simply extending the same "emptiness view" of Self/self.

    5. From these experiences and realizations, contemplate what is meant by "thing", what is meant by mere construct and imputation.

    6. "Mind and body drop" are simply dissolving of mind and body constructs. If one day the experience of anatta turns a practitioner to the attachment of an 'objective and actual' world, deconstruct "physical".

    7. There is a relationship between "mental constructs", energy, luminosity and weight. A practitioner will experience a release of energies, freedom, clarity and feel light and weightless deconstructing 'mental constructs'.

    8. Also understand how the maha experience of interpenetration and non-obstruction is related to deconstructions of inherent view.

    9. No body, no mind, no dependent origination, no nothing, no something, no birth, no death. Profoundly deconstructed and emptied! Just vivid shimmering appearances as Primordial Suchness in one whole seamless unobstructed-interpenetration."


    Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Space-Like Emptiness and Illusion-Like Dependent O...": 

    Being clothed in this dense material form,this body-brain-nervous system,ones perception is severely enslaved/limited ..... 

    Obviously,after death,for some period of time,not being subjected to limited body-brain perception/experience,

    ones view and perception will b greatly expanded ....Many things which couldnt be seen while in this body,with all its fight-flight response(biochemical ,hormonal caused) will bcome clearer...

    And there will be a period of life review,when one sees the life just lived ,and with it comes variety of consciousness(contenment,regret,sorrow etc...) ...

    My Q is .. wats yr view(whether theoretical or if even better,personal experiences) of getting this "expanded mind/consciousness" while still in this body ? Its so hard to get in waking state ...How to hypnotize oneself(if possible) to get "out-of -body- consciousness" ? 

    And no,im not talking abt no-self,nondual or anything like dat..but really abt reaching a "bodiless" (if can put it dat way) expanded perception,where the grip of self-preservation,selfishness,resentment ,worldly desires etc.. is lessen and a better perspective(eg.. dat we r simply a passerby in this temporal earth life etc...) is attained ....And such perception is obviously different frm belief , for belief is blind...but this is 'closer to reality' view.... 

    Soh has left a new comment on your post "Space-Like Emptiness and Illusion-Like Dependent O...": 

    Out of body experience does not liberate. It is very common, a high percentage of people will experience it some time in their life even if they did not engage in spiritual practices. It does not help other than maybe shift one's perspective a little bit.

    Body-mind drop helps. The complete dissolution of body-consciousness can happen by two ways:

    1) Deep samadhi
    2) Deep realization.

    You need to get to Stage 4 and 5 and deconstruct mind-body for the dissolving of body-consciousness to be permanent. This is described by teachers like Rupert Spira and U.G. Krishnamurti (

    You will not experience it permanently through meditation alone. 

    Zen Master Dogen and many other teachers, including my Taiwanese Mahayana teacher, as well as Thusness, often emphasizes "mind body drop". So this is an important phase. You will experience it eventually if you have the correct insights and practice. 

    One can experience mind-body drop as a stage in samadhi but it will be temporary without deep nondual realization.

Before inquiring into a new way of listening, let me just share the joy of walking through the fields and woods on this extraordinary land. Just stepping out of the reception area, closing the door behind me, walking away from the overhang that shields one from the sun and rain, there isn’t any enclosure left—not even a body! All I am is the birds singing and fluttering, bare branches swaying in the breeze, the ground partly frozen yet melting, the pond covered with a thin layer of ice, and the blue hills, sky and wandering clouds within close reach. There is also a throbbing heart and the people walking on the path. Even those who are not here—aren’t we all together this one moment—beholding everything out of stillness?
It is the stillness of not being identified with me—the endless stories of the past and the various images that have represented me to myself and others. Identification with me is a living prison. In it we constantly want to be accepted, feel important, be listened to, be encouraged, supported and comforted in this separate life of ours. But now, here, in the fresh air under the open sky there is the freedom of not needing anything, not needing to be anything—just being this open listening space where people walk, crows caw and ice cracks underfoot.
Why do I feel that listening is so immensely important in living alone or together? It is because listening quietly, passionately, now, without expectation or effort, is the gateway to living in wholeness, without the separation of you and me.
This is our main question: Can we listen in a deep way in a moment of silence and stillness? Or is the mind preoccupied with the 10,000 worries of this world, of our life, of our family? Can we realize right now that a mind that is occupied with itself cannot listen freely? This is not said in judgment—it is a fact. It’s impossible for me to hear someone else while I’m worrying about myself. Birdcalls and the songs of the breeze do not exist when the mind is full of itself. This is within the experience of all of us. So, can the mind put its problems aside for one moment and listen freshly? This moment! Are we listening together? The caw of the crows, the quiet hum of a plane, a dog’s barking, or whatever sounds are alive where you are listening right now.
It is relatively easy to listen happily in nature—the leaves, grasses, flowers, trees, lakes and hills do not think and worry like we do, and therefore do not provoke thinking. Maybe for deer and birds there is some rudimentary thinking going on but that need not engage us in thought (unless we are avid birdwatchers or we worry about the plight of too many deer and too many hunters next season). Thought can make a problem out of everything, but most of us find the beauty of unselfconscious listening much easier to come upon in nature than among people.
Why is it so inordinately difficult to listen to each other? When I am present with the abundant energy of listening, I do not find it difficult to hear what you are saying. Instead of being busy with self-concern, the space is open to hearing, seeing, and understanding the meaning of your words. If I don’t understand, then there is the freedom to ask you for clarification.
Without this open space of presence—energy, the inner tapes of human conditioning press hard to be heard—they do not want to make way for listening to others. How can I possibly hear you when I am dying to say something myself? How can I take the time and care to understand you when I think that I am right and you are wrong? When I’m sure that I know better? When I sorely need attention and resent anyone else getting it?
Can I hear you when I have fixed images about how you have been in the past, how you have criticized or flattered me? Can I listen freely when I would like you to be different from the way you are? Do I have the patience to listen to you when I think I already know what you are going to say? Am I open to listening to you when I am judging you? Judgments and prejudices lie deeply hidden in the recesses of the mind and require curiosity and inner transparency in order to be discovered. Only what is discovered can end.
Do I really hear what you are saying when I take you to be holy, to be worshipped, adored and surrendered to? Will I expect every word you say to be infallible wisdom? Or the opposite: Can I hear what you are saying when I am convinced that you are stupid? Am I listening to you in the same way that I listen to someone else?
We can add more and more to this list, but the important thing is to start fundamentally questioning our listening. The point is not to ask, “How can I achieve pure listening?” but rather, “Where is my listening coming from this moment, in light of all these questions?” Is it hampered by different ideas and attitudes or does it arise from a moment of being truly present?
Many of us sincerely desire to become better listeners and may think that it will only happen once we are free of the me sometime in the future. This is an erroneous assumption. Even though the me circuit is deeply ingrained within brain and body, a genuine desire and interest to understand you allows energy to gather in listening attentively to what you are saying. This attentive listening may empty out the preoccupation with myself. Through listening to your words and truly wishing to understand what you mean to convey, I enter you—your question, your condition, the whole you.
When I’m not really interested in what you are saying, can I pause and listen within? Can I take a glance at what is going on inside? Is it resistance? Boredom? The passing by of words that are not really heard? When there is clear seeing, that in itself is a shift.
Listening purifies itself. It’s not that there is necessarily a new interest in what you are saying. I may prefer to dialogue deeply while you want to relate your story or get my attention. When listening comes out of wholeness, an appropriate response happens. That is the wisdom of listening.
Sometimes, when I’m talking in a meeting and a flock of crows flies by—caw, caw, caw, caw, caw—I raise my hand a bit and ask: “Do you hear that?” The person may shake her head—the listening space was filled up with other things. Are we here right now?
When you hear that question, what happens? Is it simply caw, caw, caw, or are you thinking, “Am I doing it right?” or, “What does she want me to say?” Hear those thoughts like you hear the wind in the trees. It’s the same listening. It’s different things—the sound of wind and trees and birds is different from the sound of thoughts—but it’s the same listening. One whole listening!
For marvelous unknown reasons, once in a while we are completely here. For a moment we hear, see and feel all one. Then the mind comes in to explain it, know it, compare it and store it. This is not an intentional process—it’s habit. No one is doing it. The naming, liking and disliking, wanting to keep something and fearing the loss of it—these are all ingrained mind processes rolling off on their own. If we get a glimpse of that, get a feel for what is purely habitual, then we will be much more tolerant and patient with the so-called others and with ourselves.
When I talk about listening, I don’t mean just listening with the ear. Listening here includes the totality of perception—all senses open and alive, and still much more than that. The eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind are receptive, open, not controlled. A Zen saying describes it as “hearing with one’s eyes and seeing with one’s ears.” It refers to this wholeness of perception. The wholeness of being!
Another Zen saying demands: “Hear the bell before it rings!” Ah, it doesn’t make any sense rationally, does it? But there is a moment when that bell is ringing before you know it! You may never know it! Your entire being is ringing! There’s no division in that—everything is ringing.
So can we learn more and more about ourselves, not by studying in order to increase our store of information, but through asking in wonderment what keeps us from hearing the bell before it rings?

Piotr Ludwiński (a 19 year old Polish who frequents my Facebook group, Dharma Connection) described one month ago his realization of anatta and mind-body drop-off.


Jackson, what was meant in my post by "we simply don't find any basis"? It meant that no "nothing", no "space", no "thing", no "it", no "who", no "spiritual beingness", no "Self", no "The Awareness", no "Source", no "Mirror", no "non-dual Knower" is found apart from ignorance

"Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,"
~ Visuddhimagga XIX

That aware space you mention so much, Jackson, I have recognized (I've pursued direct path of self-enquiry). I've reached direct realization of "what is your original face" as shapeless, self-cognizing radiance. Self-knowing space-like presence.

That realization of Existence-Consciousness-Bliss when there is no distance between "me" and Existence-Consciousness-Bliss took place. When one realizes there is no "ME and Existence-Consciousness Bliss", but only self-knowing Existence-Consciousness-Bliss it is effortless, unfabricated, non-conceptual and immediate experience. That intimacy and taste of existence cannot be forgotten. It is like "kiss from beloved" u have mentioned but not exactly; I speak about situation in which there is no more "ME" and "Beloved" but only Beloved remains. Kiss so powerful that "me" dissolved and I noticed that "Kisser and kissed" is one.

I've also experienced sinking into nothingness like Nisargadatta Maharaj points out as attempt to integrate the fact that there are perdiods where not even Existence-Consciousness-Bliss is experienced.

I've misinterpreted Dzogchen, Mahamudra and Buddhism in overall. Remaining in "natural state" seemed me to just remain in nirvikalpa samadhi, absorbed into non-conceptual thought. When I write "non-conceptual thought" I mean I AM/Existence-Consciousness-Bliss. This is "stage 1" in Thusness' ladder of "seven stages".

Then I came across Thusness' and Soh's blog. It showed me that Existence-Consciousness-Bliss is golden chains. Further contemplation resulted in fluctuation between experience of "One Mind" and "No Mind"; fluctuating between substantial and insubstantial non-duality.

Jackson, you generally speak a lot about what is called by Thusness' and Soh as "One Mind" => for example quote of one of recent posts of yours "The Knower and the seeing and hearing are non-dual, yet not the same. The clouds in the sky are non-dual, yet not the same. The reflections in a mirror are non-dual regarding the mirror, yet are not the same.". I have experienced this substantial non-duality directly. This is stage 4 in above mentioned ladder.

Problem behind "substantial non-duality" is that there is powerful attachment to thought realm. "One Mind" I mentioned above is last resort to hold to this framework.

"The world is illusory;
Brahman alone is real;
Brahman is the world."

You need to directly discern and understand why realization that is expressed by this stanza is from the very beginning based on attachment to certain cognitive mistake. Otherwise there is absolutely no possibility of understanding Buddhadharma. Countless yogic practices were developed to enhance intensity of experiential realization of this stanza. I've realized directly first two sentences which is Self-Realization and then experienced directly meaning of third sentence. It is "One Mind"/stage 4 in Thusness' ladder. I've directly experienced that Mind/Presence is mirror that is non-dual with phenomena but yet independent of them. So I directly realized the meaning behind this pointer.

But I have also experienced no-mind and realized the difference directly. In "No Mind" there is no more "mirror" that is "non-dual with senses".

That mirror is recognized to be just one of the senses; particular manifestation in thought realm; non-conceptual thought. So that above statement about brahman is just based on delusion and attachment to this non-conceptual thought and reifying as "mirror", "Self", "non-dual Knower", "Mind", "Awareness" etc.

"In actuality, that non-conceptual thought is not any more special than a passing sight, a passing scent!"

But anatta isn't experience of "no mind" in which self/Self/"awareness"/"mind" is forgotten and only non-dual senses remain without center or reference point. Realization/insight isn't peak experience.

So what is anatta and how does anatta apply to non-conceptual thought/I AM/Existence-Consciousness-Bliss/Brahman?

Through contemplation on right view and anatta it was recognized that "Divine Being" too, as it was discerned directly, is simply self-luminous activity without any trace of agent, doer behind it. In other words, non-dual shapeless presence is just non-dual experience in thought realm.

It is not "more important" than non-dual sound, non-dual scenery, non-dual thoughts, non-dual tastes, non-dual odours, non-dual sensations.

It is not "mirror" that is "non-dual" with senses; it itself is just experience in one of the senses.

I recognized that it is "always so". There is no agent, no linking basis, no source, no "The awareness", no "self" no "Self", no "the Intelligence" that is BEHIND self-knowing phenomena. "Existence-Consciousness-Bliss" is included in phenomena, for it's position of mirror and non-dual knower is just because of wrong view and framework that is based on cognitive mistake and assumption.

I understood why Soh used word like "phenomena-ing" instead of "phenomena".

If someone would like to grasp "nothingness" as last resort to be able to conceive "I", "me", "Source" and "The Awareness". Well, formless samadhis are also just self-luminous activity without any agent, source, self, Self, Intelligence behind it whatsoever. Only lack of realization and insight into anatta results in reification like Nisargadatta did.

There is neither "the awareness" nor "Spiritual Intelligence" behind non-dual self-luminous activities (non-conceptual thought that is reified as Brahman/Self I also include in this). "Awareness" and "Spiritual Intelligence" are just labels on these self-luminous activities without agent. "Mind" is just label for this self-luminous arising and passing. Just like "weather" is label for various activities without doer behind them.

Two stanzas about Anatta by Thusness' are leading to two equally important aspects of anatta;

"There is thinking, no thinker
There is hearing, no hearer
There is seeing, no seer

In thinking, just thoughts
In hearing, just sounds
In seeing, just forms, shapes and colors."

Realization of just one without the other is incomplete. Anatta is only understood and realized when there is discernment and recognition of what both of these point to.

""He perceives Unbinding as Unbinding.[7] Perceiving Unbinding as Unbinding, he conceives things about Unbinding, he conceives things in Unbinding, he conceives things coming out of Unbinding, he conceives Unbinding as 'mine,' he delights in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you."

So using this quotation as example “He has not comprehended it" can take place when one realizes second stanza but doesn't realize what is exact meaning behind first one...


"He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because, with the ending of delusion, he is devoid of delusion, I tell you."

In realization of meaning of both of above Thusness' stanzas on anatta, there is no more place for "Source", reified "Spiritual Intelligence". There is no place for any phenomenon or noumenon behind self-luminous non-dual activity.
First-fold emptiness simply means that there is nothing behind non-dual phenomena-ing. All views that are contained in above statements by Buddha are simply recognized for what they are; delusions that have lack of the insight into anatta as their cause.

Moreover, posing a question in a way you do, was directly refuted by Buddha; this Jax.

Buddha isn't stressing this simply because of his whim, but simply in realization of anatta it is clearly seen why exactly these questions are flawed from the very beginning.

No god, no Brahma, may be called,
The maker of this wheel of life,
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all."

Visuddhimagga XIX.

"Infinite Consciousness", "Infinite Space", "Nothingness", "Neither perception nor non-perception" are included in "empty phenomena roll on".

Speaking about "Non-dual Knower" show lack of true understanding and realization into anatta. Why? Because it is still disease of conceiving. Attachment to see reality based on subject, object, agent, doer, source, manifestation, self, Self.

In other words, by speaking that there is no agent behind self-luminous activity I also include experience of self-cognizing Existence-Consciousness-Bliss (which is called "I AM" in Thusness "seven stages", due to my former conditioning I use similar terminology).

But what exactly is realization of anatta? Using two stanzas by Thusness' realization is direct insight that it is "always already so". To apply this to my own spiritual search it means that from the very beginning of my journey there was no agent, no linking basis, no source, no "the awareness" no reified "non-dual knower" or imagined "spiritual intelligence" behind this. It applies to my delusion of personhood, to my delusion of reifications of Existence-Consciousness-Bliss, to my delusions of sinking into nothingness, to my delusions of substantial non-duality ("One-Mind/stage 4 in Thusness "seven stages").

That is why anatta is one of "three marks of existence". It isn't stage or experience. It is always already so.

AN 10.60 Girimānanda Sutta:

"Now what, Ānanda, is the recognition of selflessness? Here, Ānanda, a monk, gone to the wilderness, to the root of a tree, or to an empty place, discriminates thus: ‘The eye is not-self, forms are not-self; the ear is not-self, sounds are not-self; the nose is not-self, odors are not-self; the tongue is not-self, flavors are not-self; the body is not-self, tactual objects are not-self; the mind is not-self, phenomena are not-self.’ Thus he abides contemplating selflessness with regard to the six internal and external sensory spheres. This, Ānanda, is called the recognition of selflessness."

Thus, we came back to Bahiya Sutta:

‘The seen will be merely the seen, the heard will be merely the heard, the sensed will be merely the sensed, the known will be merely the known.’ This is how you should train, Bāhiya.

When, Bāhiya, for you the seen will be merely the seen, the heard will be merely the heard, the sensed will be merely the sensed, the known will be merely the known, then Bāhiya, you will not be that. When, Bāhiya, you are not that, then Bāhiya, you will not be there. When, Bāhiya, you are not there, then Bāhiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor between-the-two. Just this is the end of unsatisfactoriness."


(One day later)

Yesterday some heat penetrated the body and had experience of something like, "dissolution of body". But can't describe this clearly, since I mean sensations of body; I see that "body" is imputation like weather on sensations. If we use "mind" for I AM, thoughts, emotions, memories, that "mind" too is like weather. That weather analogy is really helpful. If six consciousnesses are seen as imputation, then basically no "body" and "mind" remains at all. Especially if we don't imagine some super consciousness behind skandhas. So "sentient beings" is too like "weather".