Posts
These conversations took place before I (Soh) even had the I AM realization which happened in February 2010.
Session Start: Thursday, March 06, 2008
(11:44 PM) AEN: when
the 'me' drops completely then it feels like everything is there but you dont
exist rite... like fusing into everything but there is no center... yesterday i
tried and pretended to be dead... like 'i' died, but rather than losing consciousness
its like i fuse into surrounding, awareness as 'forms' become stronger.. but
then v quickly the sense of 'i' comes back like something in the head
(11:45 PM) Thusness: not
bad but not good enough
(11:45 PM) AEN: icic
(11:45 PM) AEN: ya
cos the propensity is strong, like v fast comes back
(11:46 PM) Thusness: the
glimpse is there but the clarity isn't
(11:47 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:48 PM) Thusness: like
1&2
(11:48 PM) AEN: wat
1&2?
(11:48 PM) Thusness: but
yet there is no vividness of experiences of stage 1&2
(11:48 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:49 PM) Thusness: but
at least u hv some experience
(11:50 PM) AEN: but
its like v hard to sustain unless there is complete dropping.. i guess i need
to meditate more...
(11:51 PM) AEN: but
its not 'i amness' mah btw
(11:51 PM) Thusness: yes
but ur dropping is still not there ... u hv to go through life experiences
& get honed
(11:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:53 PM) Thusness: it
is still 'I Amness'
(11:53 PM) Thusness: Read
what I said to spwn07
(11:56 PM) AEN:
3. The experience
can be further divided into the followings:
3.1 A strong
individual sense of identity
3.2 An
oceanic experience free from conceptualization.
This is due to the practitioner freeing himself from
conceptuality, from labels and symbols.
The mind continuous disassociates itself from all labeling and symbols.
3.3 An
oceanic experience dissolving into everything.
The period of non-conceptuality is prolonged. Long enough to dissolve the mind/body
‘symbolic’ bond and therefore inner and outer division is temporarily
suspended.
(11:57 PM) Thusness: yes
(11:57 PM) Thusness: u
r going through these 3 phases
(11:57 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:58 PM) Thusness: but
the depth & clarity of experiences r not there yet
(11:59 PM) AEN: ya
(11:59 PM) Thusness: even
then it is still not non-dual, anatta & emptiness
(11:59 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:59 PM) Thusness: still
at 'i m' level
(12:00 AM) Thusness: I
told u that u will be hving these 2 experiences soon
(12:00 AM) AEN: y
is it 'i am'
(12:00 AM) AEN: its
just a stage rite
(12:01 AM) Thusness: what
u experienced is luminosity
(12:01 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:01 AM) Thusness: continue
dropping
(12:01 AM) AEN: ok
(12:02 AM) Thusness: &
do summary of whatever I said about non-dual
(12:02 AM) AEN: oic
(12:02 AM) Thusness: but
u r on the right track
(12:03 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:03 AM) Thusness: u
must dare to drop & sheh
(12:04 AM) AEN: oic
(12:04 AM) Thusness: u
hv gone into not 'thoughts'
(12:04 AM) AEN: u
mean thoughtlessness?
(12:04 AM) Thusness: but
vividness of luminosity
(12:05 AM) AEN: oic
(12:06 AM) Thusness: that
is there is no thought, no I, no personality sort of experience
(12:06 AM) Thusness: but
this time it is vividness of phenomenon
(12:06 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:06 AM) Thusness: however
there is no insight
(12:07 AM) AEN: ya
(12:08 AM) Thusness: so
u know what I meant abt 'I AMness' as thought realm?
(12:08 AM) Thusness: and
as everything fuse into it
(12:08 AM) Thusness: stage
1 & 2?
(12:09 AM) AEN: i
know the fusing part but wat u mean by thought realm
(12:09 AM) AEN: thought
realm is more like last time i mentioned the experience?
(12:09 AM) Thusness: just
imagine these 2 experiences r prolonged
(12:09 AM) Thusness: yes
(12:09 AM) AEN: oic
but they are not the same experience rite
(12:09 AM) Thusness: yeah
(12:10 AM) AEN: icic
(12:10 AM) Thusness: one
is a pure sense of existence
(12:10 AM) AEN: ya
(12:10 AM) Thusness: but
there is no vividness of form
(12:11 AM) AEN: icic..
yea
(12:11 AM) Thusness: the
other is losing the sense of 'I' & fuses into everything
(12:11 AM) AEN: ya
(12:12 AM) Thusness: so
u know what I meant by stage 1-2?
(12:12 AM) Thusness: then
there is a block
(12:12 AM) AEN: yea
(12:12 AM) Thusness: like
'' 'I' is the block
(12:13 AM) Thusness: that
is stage 3
(12:13 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:14 AM) Thusness: imagine
u can profound the experiences & prolonged it. Then that is stage 1&2
(12:14 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:15 AM) Thusness: but
at least there is progress & u will know what I meant
(12:15 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:16 AM) AEN: ya
tink so
(12:18 AM) AEN: i
tink u told me yesterday about something like death and whether its scary or
wat... then i tried and pretended that 'i' died and then fused as everything.
actually is blissful.. lol
(12:18 AM) Thusness: just
read & summarized whatever I said about anatta
(12:19 AM) AEN: icic..
ok
(12:19 AM) Thusness: u
must learn to drop, to sheh
(12:19 AM) Thusness: then
u progress & understand more
(12:19 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:20 AM) Thusness: u
cannot understand through thinking alone
(12:21 AM) Thusness: u
need to realize step by step & know that there is nothing to fear
(12:21 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:21 AM) Thusness: u
know more through each elimination
(12:22 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:22 AM) Thusness: till
u really want & dare complete death
(12:22 AM) Thusness: like
natural progression
(12:22 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:23 AM) Thusness: but
now just practice dropping
(12:23 AM) Thusness: mind
& body drop
(12:24 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:24 AM) Thusness: but
summarize what I said about anatta, not emptiness
(12:24 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:24 AM) Thusness: ur
condition is not there yet
(12:25 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:25 AM) Thusness: it
can take 20yrs without proper guidance
(12:26 AM) AEN: oic..
guidance like leading one to proper insights of anatta and emptiness?
(12:26 AM) Thusness: but
that is the 'jue' ur master want u to experience
(12:26 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:26 AM) Thusness: just
hv to prolong it.
(12:26 AM) AEN: icic..
(1:12 AM) AEN: ooh
(1:13 AM) AEN: ok i
click join ah
(1:16 AM) AEN: oops!
wrong window
Session Start: Friday, March 07, 2008
(11:53 PM) AEN: wah
u back home so fast?
(11:53 PM) AEN: lol
(11:53 PM) AEN: btw
eckhart tolle admitted trying LSD last time
(11:54 PM) AEN: lol
jonls also admitted trying LSD last time
(11:54 PM) Thusness: yeah
(11:54 PM) Thusness: is
it?
(11:54 PM) Thusness: ahahaha
(11:54 PM) Thusness: i
din.
(11:54 PM) Thusness: :)
(11:54 PM) AEN: hahaha
(11:54 PM) Thusness: u
dun have to.
(11:54 PM) AEN: wah
u v fast
(11:54 PM) AEN: hmm
ya
(11:55 PM) Thusness: u
just have to drop
(11:55 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:55 PM) Thusness: u
will experience that clarity
(11:55 PM) Thusness: with
deeper insight and understanding
(11:55 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:01 AM) AEN: ECKHART
TOLLE (AUTHOR “A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE’S PURPOSE”): Well,
later on, people tell me, they ask me is that like acid.
Because some people take acid and they say oh we experienced that when we took
acid, they told me many times. Until finally, I’ll tell you in confidence,
finally I tried acid just for once.
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): You're telling me in confidence
here?
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR “A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR
LIFE’S PURPOSE”): Yes.
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Okay, good.
(12:01 AM) AEN: he
said 'confidence' but actually he is speaking to half a million ppl worldwide
on webcast, i tink he forgot.. LOL
(12:05 AM) Thusness: in
confidential u mean
(12:05 AM) AEN: ya
lol
(12:05 AM) Thusness: :)
Session Start: Monday, March 10, 2008
(6:24 PM) Thusness: The
book is so so only. More pilosophical
than practical. :P
(6:24 PM) Thusness: But
I bought another book, "Cultivating the Empty Field". Think it is good. :)
(6:25 PM) Thusness: Don't
buy open secret unless u want to go into philosophy.
(6:25 PM) Thusness: LOL
(6:36 PM) Thusness: ur
reply is not very good.
(6:36 PM) Thusness: Just
bring him to the awareness that he is in stage 1.
(6:39 PM) Thusness: Until
this sentence "You are beginning to experience the 'AMness'" is enough.
The rest is not important and confusing at this point in time.
:)
(6:47 PM) AEN: back
(6:47 PM) AEN: oic
(6:48 PM) Thusness: slowly
tell him about stage 1-2 first.
(6:49 PM) Thusness: 1
is to have a direct glimpse of awareness yet still being affected by the
propensity of 'I'.
(6:50 PM) Thusness: stage
2 is an experience of its relationship of phenomena and still having the
propensity.
(6:50 PM) Thusness: first
these 2.
(6:51 PM) Thusness: As
long as u caution him that it is not it, it is okie.
(6:51 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:52 PM) AEN: oh
no! the posting period has expired :P
(6:52 PM) AEN: cannot
edit liao
(6:52 PM) AEN: esangha
only allows editing up to 2 hours i tink
(6:52 PM) Thusness: ahahah...okie.
(6:52 PM) AEN: then
how
(6:52 PM) AEN: i
clarify in another post
(6:52 PM) AEN: ?
(6:52 PM) Thusness: just
let it be.
(6:53 PM) Thusness: no
need
(6:53 PM) Thusness: see
what he replies first.
(6:53 PM) AEN: icic
(6:55 PM) AEN: wats
Cultivating the Empty Field about
(6:55 PM) Thusness: it
is a zen book.
(6:55 PM) Thusness: quite
good.
(6:55 PM) Thusness: but
mainly poetic.
(6:55 PM) Thusness: :)
(6:56 PM) Thusness: not
many are able to explain step by step like buddha on something so
transcendental.
(6:57 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:30 PM) AEN: added:
(7:30 PM) AEN: Maybe
the teaching of No-Self, non-duality, emptiness may be a little confusing for
you now. Just have to know that what you are experiencing is Stage 1 of my
friend's 6 stages, https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fawakeningtoreality.blogspot.com%2F200...experience.html&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5I7RqwmFbRNxMHLR%2FBxvuHyfFkYM%2BjfxpVrRDYV2JWc%3D&reserved=0
.
The experience is characterised by a pure sense of
existence, or as you described a vast, oceanic, all-pervading 'energy'. Stage 1
is like having direct glimpse of awareness yet still being affected by the
propensity of 'I'. But this experience lacks the 'vividness' of form.
Stage 2 is an experience of its relationship of phenomena
and still having the propensity. This experience comes when the period of
non-conceptuality is prolonged. Long enough to dissolve the mind/body
'symbolic' bond and therefore inner and outer division is temporarily
suspended.
That is one experiences a kind of death of being a
separate self, and fuses into everything, experiences everything as
'Consciousness'. But the propensity (to perceive 'self' and duality) is still
there, and this becomes merely a stage that has entry and exit unlike when
there is true insight int
(7:30 PM) AEN: true
insight into non-duality.
And then stage 3 is the 'block' that prevents recapturing
the experience, the 'block' is seen to be the 'self'. So one practices deep
meditation trying to dissolve the self to recapture the experience. But the
true nature of awareness is not understood.
Both experiences (Stage 1 & 2) are not it, so do not
be mistaken that the 'I AM' is Buddha-nature.
(7:50 PM) Thusness: LOL
(7:50 PM) Thusness: no
need to write too much.
(7:50 PM) AEN: lol
(7:51 PM) Thusness: just
wait for his reply.
(7:52 PM) AEN: oic
Session Start: Tuesday, March 11, 2008
(2:56 AM) AEN: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffftv-buddhistgeeks.s3.amazonaws.com%2FEpisode061_Buddhist_Magic.mp3&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=f3IOUCUKbmfcplVjB0%2BxUXeGA7wRCfUoKL092uckETI%3D&reserved=0
-- dharma dan talks about supernatural powers
(2:58 AM) AEN: dharma
dan say u cant have supernatural powers without developing insights into
interconnectedness of things and running into classic insights etc
(2:58 AM) AEN: as in
u wld develope insights from it
(3:04 AM) AEN: wah
he discuss his supernatural powers.. :P
(3:04 AM) AEN: nub
wld be realy interested
(3:04 AM) AEN: hahahaha
(8:49 AM) Thusness: so
early?
(8:49 AM) Thusness: :)
(8:49 AM) Thusness: Actually
it is about visualisation of strong colors and 'sheh' that give rise to psychic
powers.
(8:50 AM) AEN: yea i
was also thinking about that
(8:50 AM) AEN: tats
y tantric focus so much on visualisation rite
(8:50 AM) AEN: anyway
u said last time u practiced visualisation isnt it
(9:14 AM) Thusness: yes
(9:14 AM) AEN: oic..
taoist practices?
(9:15 AM) Thusness: yeah
but not like vajrayana so intense.
(9:15 AM) Thusness: i
got to go now.
(9:15 AM) AEN: oic..
(9:15 AM) AEN: ok
cya
(9:22 AM) AEN: eckhart
teaching body mindfulness
(9:39 AM) AEN: alot
on vipassana like seeing a tree without perception or any sense perception
Session Start: Tuesday, March 11, 2008
(7:08 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:08 PM) Thusness: But
u must understand the right view and the wrong view.
(7:08 PM) Thusness: what
is anatta and what is DO.
(7:09 PM) Thusness: when
we stop at non-duality according to the Advaita and Vedanta side, there is the
'essence'.
(7:09 PM) Thusness: the
'IT'
(7:09 PM) Thusness: it
is the dualistic propensities of understanding non-duality.
(7:10 PM) Thusness: therefore
one cannot understand correctly anatta and emptiness.
(7:10 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:10 PM) Thusness: If
right view is not important, we might as well stop at "I AMness".
(7:10 PM) Thusness: Why
the need to understand the observer is the observed.
(7:10 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:11 PM) Thusness: Right
understanding is to bring us further and Buddhism points out the fundamental
problem of wrongly understanding Reality and Awareness.
(7:11 PM) Thusness: Seeing
'Self', 'Entity', Unchanging Essence is a distorted view of experience.
(7:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:22 PM) Thusness: optomistic
replied u.
(7:23 PM) AEN: yea i
pasted to u juts now
(7:23 PM) Thusness: I
din received it.
(7:24 PM) AEN: oic
(7:24 PM) AEN: so u
saw his msg?
(7:24 PM) Thusness: yeah
(7:25 PM) AEN: oic
(7:25 PM) AEN: tats
stage 2 rite
(7:26 PM) Thusness: It
is common for that 1 leads to 2.
(7:26 PM) Thusness: But
the clarity of what is 1 and what is 2 must be there.
(7:26 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:26 PM) AEN: so
his experience is 1 leading to 2?
(7:26 PM) AEN: clarity
as in wat
(7:27 PM) Thusness: as
in what is stage 1 and what is stage 2.
(7:27 PM) AEN: icic
(7:27 PM) AEN: so
his experience is like 1 leading to 2?
(7:27 PM) Thusness: it
will take some time.
(7:28 PM) Thusness: But
like what he said, it is the 'terms' used in the description of the experience.
(7:28 PM) Thusness: He
is not sure.
(7:29 PM) Thusness: It
is common for someone to get used to the terms used in describing these
experiences.
(7:29 PM) Thusness: it
will take some time.
(7:29 PM) Thusness: Presence
is a term used for longchen and jonls.
(7:29 PM) Thusness: Because
ET also used that term.
(7:29 PM) Thusness: So
do most New Age groups.
(7:29 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:30 PM) Thusness: In
Dzogchen it is commonly used too.
(7:30 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:30 PM) Thusness: but
in Buddhism, it may not sound right.
(7:30 PM) Thusness: But
because ur explanation is not clear and is unable to bring out the essence of
what he experiences, he is not sure.
(7:31 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:31 PM) AEN: so
how to explain
(7:31 PM) Thusness: there
is no how to explain lah
(7:31 PM) AEN: huh
y.. can explain one mah
(7:33 PM) Thusness: everyone's
experience is different.
(7:33 PM) Thusness: it
is not a formula...how many times must I tell u.
(7:33 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:33 PM) Thusness: Since
he already know that he needs a teacher, it is better for him to look for an
experienced teacher.
(7:34 PM) Thusness: Only
one that has gone through these process knows how to guide him.
(7:34 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:42 PM) Thusness: His
conditions are already there for refining the experience of "I am
everything".
(7:43 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:43 PM) Thusness: Just
a simple question that I asked Spdwn07 will do.
(7:43 PM) AEN: oic
what qn
(7:43 PM) Thusness: the
one that I asked spdwn07.
(7:45 PM) AEN:
“Without using any languages, ‘I’, ‘me’ or any signs or
symbols, how is ‘I’ experienced?”
(7:45 PM) AEN: ?
(7:45 PM) Thusness: Just
say that u have casually sent his question to a friend. I think this question will help him deepen
his insight of stage 2. :)
(7:46 PM) Thusness: and
say hope that helps. :)
(7:46 PM) AEN: icic..
ok
(7:46 PM) Thusness: As
short as possible but do caution him as what i have cautioned spdwn07.
(7:47 PM) AEN: cautioned
him?
(7:47 PM) Thusness: I
wrote in the same post.
(7:47 PM) AEN:
The experience for 3.2 and 3.3 are transcendental and are
precious. However these experiences are
commonly misinterpreted and distorted by objectifying these experiences into an
entity that is “ultimate, changeless and independent”. The objectified experience is known as Atman,
God or Buddha Nature by the speaker in
the videos. It is known as the
experience of “I AM” with differing degree of intensity of non-conceptuality. Usually practitioners that have experienced
3.2 and 3.3 find it difficult to accept the doctrine of Anatta and
Emptiness. The experiences are too
clear, real and blissful to discard.
They are overwhelmed.
Before we go further, why do you think these experiences
are distorted?
(7:47 PM) Thusness: no
need...
(7:47 PM) Thusness: what
is the url?
(7:48 PM) AEN: oops
(7:50 PM) Thusness: “Without
using any languages, ‘I’, ‘me’ or any signs or symbols, how is ‘I’
experienced?”
Of all teachings, no teaching is more important then a
direct ‘touch’ of our Buddha essence; but of all dangers, none is more
dangerous than misinterpreting our essence after the ‘touch’.
The ‘touch’ of the pure sense of existence is often
wrongly understood due to our karmic tendencies.
(7:50 PM) Thusness: Use
the doctrine of Anatta and Emptiness as antidote after the 'touch'.
(7:56 PM) Thusness: I
have casually sent ur question to a friend.
He thinks the question below will help u deepen ur insight. Nothing intense.
(7:56 PM) Thusness: “Without
using any languages, ‘I’, ‘me’ or any signs or symbols, how is ‘I’
experienced?”
Of all teachings, no teaching is more important then a
direct ‘touch’ of our Buddha essence; but of all dangers, none is more
dangerous than misinterpreting our essence after the ‘touch’.
The ‘touch’ of the pure sense of existence is often
wrongly understood due to our karmic tendencies.
(7:57 PM) AEN: ohh
your qn is refering to the qn in his post?
(7:57 PM) AEN: lol i
tot wat.. so confusing
(7:57 PM) Thusness: yes
(8:02 PM) AEN: posted
(8:02 PM) Thusness: hope
that helps. :)
(8:02 PM) Thusness: anyway
the question will help him.
(8:03 PM) AEN: ok
added
(8:03 PM) AEN: icic
(8:03 PM) AEN: how
come?
(8:03 PM) AEN: bcos
of letting go of self and symbols?
(8:03 PM) Thusness: no
(8:04 PM) Thusness: because
his conditions require this question to break through.
(8:04 PM) Thusness: depends
on his yuan now lah.
(8:05 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:05 PM) AEN: how
is this qn different from the self inquiry qn he was asking himself'
(8:06 PM) Thusness: ai
yoh...u won't understand now lah
(8:06 PM) Thusness: see
what he replies first.
(8:06 PM) Thusness: if
it doesn't help...then bo bian. :P
(8:06 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:36 PM) AEN: oic
(8:36 PM) AEN: wat u
tink about his description of emptiness:
(8:36 PM) AEN: R. I am not sure I understand what you mean by
public and private
non-realities. Are the images, energies, and beings
worked with in the
practices real or not? Could you elaborate on that bit?
P. The basis of
all this lies in an understanding of Dharmakaya and
sunyata, "the realm of essence" and
"emptiness". The Dharmakaya is not
a place or even a state of being or consciousness.
Dharmakaya is the
field of pure potential, which is exploding into
actualized energy and
matter at every moment. Each object or thing, even in its
"thingness",
is still in essence characterized by this field of
potentiality. In
other words, each "thing" is empty of permanent
characteristics; its
characteristics share the quality of pure dynamic
potentiality and are
always tending towards the expression of that potential
via constant
change and transformation.
All worlds and
fields of perception explode from this pure
potentiality, which is also pure awareness or emptiness.
This essence,
this emptiness, is unspeakable and is not any thing at
all. And yet it
is the dynamic matrix from which all of this (
(8:36 PM) AEN: (waving
his arm about the
room) arises, and of which all of this is a presentation,
and into
which all this returns.
This explosion
of essence creates fields of energetic
perception. This energy is conditioned into forms by the
play of cause
and effect. These forms are our world and our self. The
world, and all
worlds, are coincident with the essence of awareness,
which is
birthless and deathless and utterly free of the
implications of form
and limit. The manifest world is not other than essence,
but essence
is not limited to the shape or conditions of the manifest
worlds. One
might say that the world and all worlds are held together
as form by
the conditioned and habitual intent of consciousness. Our
particular
world is held together by the intent of human beings. The
worlds of
other beings are held by the force of their conditioned
intent.
The structures
of existence are not "real" in any ultimate
sense. They are public non-realities, playful dreams
shaped out of
essence and molded in form. They are the radiance of pure
potentiality, momentarily given shape by intent and held
(8:37 PM) AEN: in a
seemingly cohesive pattern by karma or patterned
habitualized
consciousness. A Tantric yogi shatters the tyranny of
ordinary
appearance - the forgetting of how things took on their
seemingly real
forms - by molding new structures of existence - private
non-realities.
We are not
talking here about "creative visualization" in the sense
generally used. Imagination is, generally, simply mind
forms within
the public non-reality. We are talking about the actual
deconstruction
of the building blocks of reality and reconstruction of
alternatives. Both public and private non-realities are
conditioned
forms of consciousness. By enacting the process of
creation and
destruction in the private non-reality the unquestioned
authority and
permanence of the public non-reality is undermined.
Through the
process of advanced Tantric sadhana one is able to
recognize the
ground of intrinsic awareness within all conditioned forms.
This
realization allows one to live as intrinsic awareness and
recognize
all arising as ornaments of that awareness.
The idea of
Tantra is not identification with end
(8:37 PM) AEN: The idea of Tantra is not identification
with endless new
conditioned forms of awareness and color. The point is to slip
between the cracks into the matrix of pure potentiality
itself. The
goal is not achievement of unusual states it is to
recognize your
primordial intrinsic nature in all appearence. Then all
appearance has
the single taste of bliss and wisdom. That's not the end
either it's
the beginning of endless play.
(8:39 PM) Thusness: yes...well
said.
(8:40 PM) Thusness: unfortunately
it is expressed in such a way. :P
(8:40 PM) AEN: in
wat way
(8:40 PM) Thusness: The
way he put it.
(8:40 PM) Thusness: it
is very well put.
(8:40 PM) Thusness: but
not all will understand what he meant.
(8:40 PM) Thusness: very
much similar to what i told u.
(8:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:41 PM) Thusness: u
could appreciate it better.
(8:41 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:41 PM) Thusness: who
is this guy?
(8:44 PM) AEN: im
not to osure... i tink he practice vajrayana, he described having some sexual
like experience with some tibetan deities and received tantric initiation from
those deities... i tink his visions or something
(8:44 PM) AEN: It
was an intense
pleasurable sensation that pushed out from the center of
my body, from
my heart, towards my skin, though this time it seemed to
open forth
from silent space. I felt giddy and drunk. I looked up
and for a
moment I could swear I saw the outline of a dancing woman
standing in
the air above the library. She was huge!
Maybe three hundred feet
tall.
The vision
lasted for a second, and I went in and began reading on
the nearly deserted fourth floor. The longer I sat, the more intense
this vibration became.
I knew this process very well, and I knew it
would lead to a feeling of such intensity, that the
ordinary world
around me would black out. This feeling of ecstatic
drunkenness gets
stronger and stronger as if it's resonating more and more
swiftly
through the entire body.
At a certain point visionary experience
outshines the "ordinary" world.
I found myself
in a cemetery. A woman approached. She was naked,
except for some bone ornaments. She was singing and
dancing a tune of
haunting melody, which I later discovered was the mantra
of her
consort Padmasambhava
(8:44 PM) AEN: : Om
Ah Hung Vajra Guru Padma Siddhi Hung!
I was entranced,
simultaneously with ecstatic love and an absolute
feeling of overwhelming sexual desire so strong that I
was sure I
would die from it. She danced around me and then swiftly
stood
directly in front of me placing her genitals over my
face. Her vagina
was over my mouth, there was blood flowing from it, and I
drank this
blood deeply in an unending flow. I could feel it coursing through my
body like liquid heat.
Suddenly the vision disappeared.
I got up and
went home - well, actually, I think I first went and had
a chocolate
chip cookie. This began a period of what my wife and I
refer to as the
"drooling in the living room" period. I spent close to a month, mostly
sitting in a rocking chair in our living room unable to
function
because the force of Bliss that was flowing through my
body was so
overwhelming. I was also unable to speak about what was
happening.
R: You have a very understanding wife.
P: Yes. Without
her I cannot imagine what would have happened to me
during this time.
These experiences awoke in my mind an
(8:45 PM) AEN: cant
find much info about him tho...
(8:45 PM) Thusness: what
is his name?
(8:45 PM) Thusness: Pranama
(8:46 PM) AEN:
"What is Tantra?"
an interview with
Tantric Master Prem Pranama
(8:46 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:47 PM) AEN: This
interview occured in the summer of 1994. The interviewer, Ralph
Abrams, has been a spiritual seeker for the last 25
years. He has
worked with Swami Muktananda, Nisargadatta Maharaj,
Chagdud Tulku,
Nagkpa Chogyum, Native American teachers and currently
lives in the
Crazy Cloud Hermitage where he studies the Tantric path
with Pranama.
(8:47 PM) AEN: that
means
(8:47 PM) AEN: Pranama
is a tantric teacher at Crazy Cloud Hermitage.. i go check
(8:50 PM) AEN: oh
(8:50 PM) AEN: his
tibetan title is Traktung Rinpoche
(8:51 PM) AEN:
Traktung 'Rinpoche' is one of those self-proclaimed
tertons who go
around and find Tibetans to recognize him.
He used to call himself Khepa and his consort, 'Adzom
Rinpoche' is
naturally an emanation of Yeshe Tsogyal.
He says he's the tulku of Do Khyentse ...the crazy wisdom
yogi who
was one of the three main tulkus of Jigme Lingpa (the
other two being
Paltrul Rinpoche and Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo)
However the only recognized emanations of Do Khyentse I
know of are
Alak Zankar Rinpoche and Hungkar Dorje Rinpoche.
Traktung ?is a bright guy who claims to have had many
intense
visionary experiences of Guru Rinpoche and others....he
says his
teachings come from the mind mandate he received from
Guru Rinpoche
in visions.
What he says below about the American Buddhist movement
is not
something I completely disagree with...many Tibetans find
this
movement to be off the mark because of its de-emphasis of
the
importance of the guru...but I think Traktung may just be
a part of a
different western buddhist movement...the self-proclaimed
lineage
holders...which is cause for equal concern.
(8:51 PM) AEN: By
coming off orthodox in
his statements he makes his own movement seem more
traditional and
therefore more real...but I have plenty of doubts.
All that being said....I've never met the man and don't
know if he
has any realization....and I always hesitate to judge
without
personal experience. But I do know that his group was
linked with the
Aro group (at least for a while) and we all know there
are plenty of
questions surrounding them.
(8:52 PM) AEN: this
guy say in his interview
(8:53 PM) AEN: " The other reason is, I am a wild card as far
as Tantric teachings
go. I claim the authority to teach Tantra based on my own
radical
awakening into non-dual awareness and my own Mind Mandate
Transmission
from Padmasambhava. Such claims could easily be made by
any idiot -
and often are. I want my students and disciples to have a
strong
ground on which they can evaluate me and decide where our
connection
will go. I would like my students who do Tantric practice
to be able
to work with other masters so that they can come to a
greater degree
of understanding of my work when evaluated in the context
of the
traditional tantric practice.
"
(8:53 PM) AEN: R: So
you really didn't have any contact with Tibetan lamas, or the
Nyingma (Padmasambhava's) lineage, yet your teaching is
very much
influenced by Tantra and you recognize Padmasambhava as
your root
Guru. Without any contact with the lineage, you're kind
of a wild card
as a teacher.
P: (Laughing uproariously) Yeah, I am a wild card as a
Tantric
Master. But even wilder than this crazy connection with
Tantra is that
I am free. Free of birth and death, fear, anxiety, worry.
Free beyond
being and non-being. Free to do anything. And I just
might - and it's
a wonderful thing!
A wild card
like me who has awakened into and embodied the heart
of Tantric practice is unique in terms of the
trans-cultural migration
of Tantra to the West.
Padmasambhava was a wild guy because he was
the freedom and bliss of this mysterious reality. Those
who awaken to
their true nature are the same one - though in their own
unique
appearance. As Tantra develops in this culture, many
aspects of its
form are going to have to change. At the same time this must be done
in such a way as to not damage the teach
(8:53 PM) AEN: he
dun have apparent lineages from living masters... but maybe he got his
initiation from some dakini or wat? lol
(8:54 PM) AEN: he
also seem to be involved in advaita
(8:54 PM) Thusness: yeah
(8:55 PM) Thusness: It
is better to remain quiet. It can cause
confusions. :)
(8:56 PM) Thusness: Like
ur teacher chen, without ur Master will not be accepted. Even with ur Master authentication, he may
still not be accepted in orthodox schools.
(8:56 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:57 PM) Thusness: My
view is though great awakening does not really require lineages, it is best not
to go around starting new movement to confuse ppl.
(8:57 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:58 PM) AEN: i
wonder if any living rinpoches recognised him
(8:58 PM) Thusness: time
will tell. :)
(8:58 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:06 PM) Thusness
is now Offline
Session Start: Wednesday, March 12, 2008
(12:21 PM) AEN: yesterday
i had a rather strange experience
(12:21 PM) AEN: quite
difficult to describe
(12:22 PM) AEN: feels
like fading out of existence... and forcefully 'absorbed' into the
surroundings... a bit intense... like as if entering a different state of
consciousness
(12:22 PM) AEN: but
lasted for a while then returned
(12:23 PM) Thusness: hmm....not
a good description.
(12:23 PM) AEN: ya
i dunno how to describe
(12:23 PM) AEN: lol
(12:23 PM) AEN: but
it was like more intense than the other day
(12:23 PM) Thusness: is
there clarity?
(12:23 PM) AEN: ya
i think so... just awareness as form
(12:24 PM) Thusness: did
u sit?
(12:24 PM) AEN: ya
i was sitting
(12:24 PM) Thusness: oh...u
open ur eyes. :P
(12:24 PM) AEN: yea
i opened my eyes cos i felt a bit tired
(12:24 PM) AEN: lol
(12:25 PM) Thusness: fading
out of existence is not a good description then.
(12:25 PM) AEN: isit..
how come
(12:26 PM) Thusness: it
is just personality dissolving.
(12:26 PM) AEN: ya
i mean not becoming unconscious la
(12:26 PM) AEN: icic
(12:26 PM) Thusness: knowing
that u r not body, mind but mere luminosity
(12:27 PM) Thusness: however
this is not the body/mind dropped yet.
(12:27 PM) AEN: yea
i had a feeling as if my body and mind is dissolving
(12:27 PM) AEN: but
im not sure if tats the case
(12:27 PM) Thusness: yet
u experienced vividness of forms.
(12:27 PM) AEN: ya
(12:27 PM) Thusness: this
is like stage 2.
(12:28 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:28 PM) Thusness: u
need to do more summary of what i said.
(12:28 PM) Thusness: about
anatta.
(12:28 PM) Thusness: for
now, u will not not understand the profound meaning of anatta and emptiness in
terms of experience.
(12:28 PM) Thusness: it
will only come many many years later.
(12:29 PM) Thusness: but
it is sort of advaita vedanta experience.
(12:29 PM) AEN: oic
(12:29 PM) Thusness: u
must do sitting meditation.
(12:30 PM) Thusness: u
will not be able to overcome thoughts
(12:30 PM) Thusness: when
u sit, u will lose that clarity or luminosity
(12:30 PM) AEN: y
when i sit i will lose that clarity
(12:30 PM) Thusness: that
is why u must learn to sit
(12:30 PM) AEN: u
mean when i dun sit?
(12:31 PM) Thusness: because
ur mind have not reached the sort of stability
(12:31 PM) Thusness: when
u shut ur eyes and lost vividness, ur mind does not know how to remain calm and
clear.
(12:32 PM) AEN: oic
(12:32 PM) AEN: yesterday
i was too tired
(12:32 PM) AEN: so
i opened my eyes
(12:32 PM) AEN: otherwise
i feel like falling asleep
(12:32 PM) AEN: lol
(12:32 PM) AEN: but
if im awake i can remain calm and clear with eyes closed
(12:32 PM) Thusness: so
when u sit, although u r not able to have that clarity, when u open ur eyes, u
will.
(12:32 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:32 PM) Thusness: so
u must practice.
(12:33 PM) Thusness: what
u r experiencing is merely because of ur conditions ripening due to continuing
summarizing
(12:33 PM) Thusness: it
is not meditative 'strength'
(12:34 PM) AEN: after
the experience i was wondering if i actually dissolved my body as if last time
jhana like tat... cos i felt like as if my body and mind is dissolving. but
then i dun tink its a v similar experience, unless i forgotten
(12:34 PM) Thusness: it
is like glimpses
(12:34 PM) AEN: icic
(12:34 PM) Thusness: yes
but not yet body and mind drop.
(12:34 PM) Thusness: that
will come much later
(12:34 PM) Thusness: it
requires u to be able to do body mind deconstruction.
(12:35 PM) Thusness: at
present u still do not know the strength of propensities.
(12:35 PM) AEN: u
said its not meditative strength but more like glimpses... but the experience
was kind of intense leh
(12:35 PM) Thusness: u
do not know exactly what is bonding u yet.
(12:35 PM) Thusness: yeah
(12:35 PM) AEN: its
like a bit scary... well not scary during the experience la
(12:35 PM) AEN: lol
(12:35 PM) Thusness: intense
does not mean meditative strength
(12:36 PM) AEN: i
mean its kind of forceful as if entering a different state of consciousness
(12:36 PM) AEN: icic
(12:36 PM) Thusness: meditative
strength means u are able to experience it right now.
(12:36 PM) AEN: oic
(12:36 PM) Thusness: ur
intensity is not the sort of oceanic feeling yet
(12:36 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:37 PM) Thusness: u
must learn how to sit.
(12:37 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:38 PM) Thusness: actually
ur experience is very similar to that optimistic
(12:38 PM) AEN: isit
(12:38 PM) AEN: lol
(12:39 PM) AEN: oh
he replied
(12:39 PM) AEN: Thank
you Suguno and Xabir! Your comments are very appreciated.
Now off to the cushion...
biggrin.gif
(12:40 PM) Thusness: for
u realisation comes easiest from opening eyes and having movement.
(12:40 PM) Thusness: however
of all the six senses, u can only have clarity of sight.
(12:41 PM) Thusness: all
six doors must have that sort of clarity
(12:41 PM) AEN: not
realy i tink i was being absorbed in sound and other sensation also
(12:41 PM) AEN: icic
(12:41 PM) Thusness: when
u close ur eyes, touch, taste, sound and thoughts come into play
(12:41 PM) Thusness: when
u sit u will know lah
(12:42 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:42 PM) Thusness: sit
then u compare that clarity
(12:42 PM) Thusness: u
will know what i meant
(12:43 PM) AEN: oic
(12:43 PM) Thusness: but
u can jot down ur experiences.
(12:43 PM) Thusness: do
more summary of anatta and emptiness.
(12:43 PM) AEN: actually
if im awake i can maintain clarity, but i dunno if i can have that sort of
experience..
(12:44 PM) AEN: but
last time the 'i am' sort of experience is when my eyes close i tink
(12:44 PM) Thusness: yeah
(12:44 PM) AEN: i
mean if im awake and i closed my eyes
(12:44 PM) Thusness: remember
to learn how to drop
(12:44 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:45 PM) Thusness: learning
how to drop further is very important now.
(12:45 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:46 PM) Thusness: especially
that stanza i told u to keep in mind
(12:46 PM) Thusness: then
learn to drop 'sheh' further.
(12:47 PM) AEN: icic
(12:47 PM) AEN: which
stanza? :P
(12:47 PM) Thusness: in
the bahiya sutta
(12:47 PM) AEN: o
icic
(12:47 PM) Thusness: or
the buddhagosha
(12:47 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:48 PM) Thusness: what
u are doing now is like having a speedy glimpse...but u need to develop
meditative strength
(12:48 PM) Thusness: otherwise
later u will face problem
(12:48 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:53 PM) Thusness: rem
about the 2 stanza i told u.
(12:53 PM) AEN: bahiya
sutta?
(12:53 PM) Thusness: and
the buddhagosha stanza
(12:53 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:54 PM) Thusness
is now Offline
(12:56 PM) Thusness: by
the way the question for optomistic is also suitable for u. :P
(12:56 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:57 PM) AEN: btw
can u go online for a while :P send u something
(12:57 PM) Thusness: When
u have complete certainty of the 'I', the 'Self', tell me. :)
(12:57 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:57 PM) Thusness
is now Online
(12:58 PM) AEN: Initiated
a file transfer
(12:58 PM) AEN: ya
i tried 'who am i' yesterday then became more aware of this awareness, like the
'i am'
(12:58 PM) Thusness: yeah
(12:58 PM) Thusness: when
u have vividness and complete certainty as if u r enlightened, tell me. :P
(12:58 PM) Thusness: then
i will lead u towards non-dual.
(12:58 PM) AEN: haha
ok
(12:58 PM) Thusness: anatta.
(12:58 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:59 PM) Thusness: what
is that file hah?
(1:00 PM) Thusness: don't
ask "who am i".
(1:00 PM) Thusness: ask
the question i told u. (before birth, who am i?)
(1:00 PM) AEN: icic..
ok
(1:00 PM) AEN: hmm some excerpts from a talk by li zhu lao
shi.. lol
(1:01 PM) Thusness: some
similarity about ur experiences
(1:01 PM) AEN: a few
parts. but last part cut off cos tape change.
(1:01 PM) Transfer
of "LZLS_Q&A1_excerpts.wmv" is complete.
(1:07 PM) Thusness
has changed his/her status to Idle
(1:08 PM) Thusness
has changed his/her status to Online
(1:08 PM) Thusness: what
u wanna ask?
(1:10 PM) AEN: hmm
nothing much actually just wanted to ask in meditation we shld drop and at the
same time maintain clarity such tats there whether there is thought rite.. like
if theres thought then theres awareness of it but theres also clarity when
theres no thought
(1:10 PM) AEN: and
also we can practice this in chanting rite.. like the 3 stages
(1:10 PM) AEN: like
as in maintain awareness of chanting?
(1:11 PM) Thusness: now
what is ur understanding of what she said?
(1:11 PM) AEN: hmm
sounds a bit like 'watcher' (Comments by Soh in 2022: my local dharma teacher Li Zhu Lao Shi has progressed from I AM to anatta since, see Singaporean Dharma Teacher Li Zhu Lao Shi (丽珠老师))
(1:12 PM) Thusness: yes
(1:12 PM) Thusness: so
should u practice that way?
(1:12 PM) AEN: no?
(1:12 PM) Thusness: nope
(1:12 PM) Thusness: u
should
(1:12 PM) AEN: yea i
just practice clarity lor...
(1:12 PM) AEN: i
never tink in terms of watcher or not
(1:13 PM) Thusness: u
should practice according to what she said first.
(1:13 PM) Thusness: but
continue to do summary of what i said.
(1:13 PM) Thusness: there
is no way u can enter directly into non-dual or awakening to the profound
experience of anatta.
(1:13 PM) Thusness: not
now.
(1:14 PM) Thusness: so
u must do accordingly.
(1:14 PM) Thusness: whatever
that is taught is for u to have the experiece of the first 2 stages.
(1:15 PM) Thusness: then
sustain these stages.
(1:15 PM) Thusness: the
purpose is to maintain these stages.
(1:15 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:15 PM) Thusness: first
is to have the understanding of what is awareness.
(1:16 PM) Thusness: then
use whatever method and all ur understanding to keep this state.
(1:16 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:17 PM) Thusness: because
our mind is under such a deep influence of our propensities, u have to do that.
(1:18 PM) Thusness: that
meditative strength of sustaining will lead u to the arising of prajna wisdom
if u continue to summarize the doctrine of anatta and emptiness.
(1:18 PM) AEN: icic..
Session Start: Friday, March 14, 2008
(12:38 AM) AEN:
THE FUNCTION OF BHAVANGA
There are moments when there are no sense-impressions,
when one does not think, when there are no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Is
there at those moments still citta? Even when there are no sense-impressions
and no thinking, there must be citta; otherwise there would be no life. The
type of citta which arises and falls away at those moments is called
bhavanga-citta. Bhavanga literally means 'factor of life'; bhavanga is usually
translated into English as 'life-continuum'. The bhavanga-citta sees to it that
there is continuity in a life-span, so that what we call a 'being' keeps alive.
One may wonder whether bhavanga-cittas often arise. There
must be countless bhavanga-cittas arising at those moments when there are no
sense-impressions, no thinking, no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. When we are
asleep and dreaming there are akusala cittas or kusala cittas, but even when we
are in a dreamless sleep, there still has to be citta. There are bhavanga-cittas
at these moments. Also when we are awake there are countless bhavanga-cittas
arising; they arise in b
(12:38 AM) AEN: they
arise in between the different processes of citta. It seems that hearing, for
example, can arise very shortly after seeing, but in reality there are
different processes of citta and in between these processes there are
bhavanga-cittas.
The bhavanga-citta is the same type of citta as the first
citta in life, the patisandhi-citta (rebirth-consciousness). When the
patisandhi-citta falls away it conditions the next citta to arise which is the
second citta in that life. This citta is the first bhavanga-citta in life.
The bhavanga-citta is vipakacitta; it is the result of
the same kamma which produced the patisandhi-citta. There is only one
patisandhi-citta in a life, but there are countless bhavanga-cittas. Not only
the first bhavanga-citta, but all bhavanga-cittas arising during a lifespan are
the result of the kamma which produced the patisandhi-citta.
There are nineteen types of patisandhi-citta and thus
there are nineteen types of bhavanga-citta. If the patisandhi-citta is akusala
vipaka, which is the case when there is birth in a woeful plane, all
bhavanga-cittas of that life
(12:39 AM) AEN: is
bhavanga citta the 8th consciousness?
(12:40 AM) Thusness: can
be taken as yes.
(12:40 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:41 AM) Thusness: theravada
& mahayaha hv different teachings
(12:41 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:44 AM) Thusness: don't
think too much for now
(12:44 AM) AEN: icic
(12:46 AM) Thusness: later
part after anatta & emptiness is experienced
(12:47 AM) Thusness: u
will not worry abt these anymore
(12:47 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:47 AM) Thusness: there
is just full focus on the depth of luminosity
(12:48 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:48 AM) Thusness: luminosity
with no-self
(12:48 AM) Thusness: till
as if absorption
(12:49 AM) Thusness: u
will only interested in 'effortlessness' of perfect luminosity without self
Session Start: Saturday, March 15, 2008
(12:19 AM) Thusness: anyway
what u wrote is a good expression of ur experience.
(12:19 AM) Thusness: i
will comment next day...quite busy these days
(12:19 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:20 AM) Thusness: did
u practice dropping?
(12:21 AM) AEN: ya
(12:21 AM) AEN: just
dropped loh
(12:21 AM) Thusness: ok...
(12:21 AM) Thusness: it
must go into ur mind.
(12:21 AM) Thusness: sheh
(12:21 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:25 AM) Thusness: to
bring about the insight of anatta, u need to have the experience of stage 2, u
need to 'sheh' as in stage 3 and u need to have the right view
(12:26 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:50 AM) AEN: btw
just now u said Thusness said:
True only to certain extend. There is also over exaggeration.
(12:51 AM) AEN: wat
were u refering to?
Session Start: Saturday, March 15, 2008
(9:29 PM) AEN: hi
(9:30 PM) AEN: u
said The dissolving of 'I' and 'death' must include both the experience of
luminosity and 'losing of consciousness'.
(9:30 PM) AEN: u
mean luminosity and losing consciousness must be experienced at the same time?
(9:30 PM) AEN: or as
separate events
(9:30 PM) AEN: even
while losing consciousness one must still experience luminosity rite
(9:57 PM) Thusness: no
(9:57 PM) Thusness: just
like deep sleep, u do not experience consciousness.
(9:57 PM) Thusness: do
u experience luminosity?
(9:58 PM) AEN: no
(9:58 PM) AEN: i
dunnu
(9:58 PM) AEN: i dun
remember anything
(9:58 PM) AEN: lol
(9:59 PM) Thusness: LOL
(9:59 PM) Thusness: because
u r thinking from the perspective of 'entity' bounded by the four extremes, u
cannot know.
(10:00 PM) Thusness: learn
the meaning of anatta and meditate upon it.
(10:01 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:02 PM) Thusness: must
karma takes place immediately?
(10:04 PM) AEN: nope
(10:05 PM) AEN: it
can span lifetimes
(10:06 PM) Thusness: is
the previous moment the same as this moment?
(10:08 PM) AEN: no
(10:09 PM) Thusness: can
karmic tendencies be found?
(10:09 PM) AEN: no
(10:10 PM) AEN: its
not an entity but when conditions are there it manifests?
(10:10 PM) Thusness: then
karmic tendencies planted in the previous moment, taking effect after spanning
multiple lives time, does it exist or not exist?
(10:11 PM) AEN: its
just there as potential lor... like a seed
(10:11 PM) AEN: as
in before it manifests
(10:11 PM) Thusness: then
where is it?
(10:12 PM) AEN: its
not a something.. just a potential?
(10:12 PM) Thusness: a
potential is not an existence.
(10:12 PM) Thusness: it
is just a concept for the conventional mind to grasp.
(10:12 PM) Thusness: to
understand.
(10:13 PM) Thusness: anyway
what is important is for u to understand what anatta is first.
(10:13 PM) Thusness: then
know the strength of propensities.
(10:13 PM) Thusness: the
impacts of labels have on consciousness and how it creates reality.
(10:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:14 PM) Thusness: so
experience the luminosity...
(10:14 PM) Thusness: go
step by step...
(10:14 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:14 PM) AEN: btw
i brb.. need to help my sis
(10:14 PM) AEN: on
her comp
(10:26 PM) AEN: back
(10:27 PM) AEN: so
potential is not an existence
(10:27 PM) AEN: but
its part of our 8th consciousness rite?
(10:27 PM) Thusness: it
is no good for u to be too conceptual now.
(10:28 PM) Thusness: just
practice according to ur experience.
(10:28 PM) AEN: and
is like a process?
(10:28 PM) AEN: oic
(10:28 PM) Thusness: once
u experience ur luminosity, u should be less conceptual and focus more on
letting go and doing away with ur self.
(10:29 PM) Thusness: in
fact if anatta and emptiness has nothing to do with doing away with the self, u
should not even think of it.
(10:29 PM) AEN: wat
u mean
(10:29 PM) Thusness: what
that is most important is doing away with the self.
(10:30 PM) Thusness: u
should be less conceptual.
(10:30 PM) Thusness: does
what u experience tell u to be conceptual or non-conceptual?
(10:30 PM) AEN: non
conceptual
(10:31 PM) AEN: in
fact if anatta and emptiness has nothing to do with doing away with the self, u
should not even think of it. --> wat u mean by not thinking about doing away
with the self
(10:31 PM) Thusness: if
in a period of no buddha, there is no teaching of anatta and emptiness, what
would u do now?
(10:31 PM) AEN: just
practice and see for oneself loh
(10:32 PM) Thusness: how
will u practice?
(10:32 PM) AEN: dropping?
(10:32 PM) Thusness: dropping?
(10:32 PM) Thusness: why
dropped?
(10:32 PM) Thusness: after
some glimpses of the luminosity, u dropped what?
(10:32 PM) AEN: thoughts,
concepts, self?
(10:33 PM) Thusness: for
what?
(10:33 PM) AEN: to
experience things as it is.. like originality?
(10:33 PM) Thusness: i
mean for what?
(10:33 PM) Thusness: who
tell u that?
(10:33 PM) AEN: for
liberation?
(10:33 PM) Thusness: pengz
(10:33 PM) AEN: lol
(10:33 PM) Thusness: who
tell u that?
(10:34 PM) AEN: huh
(10:34 PM) AEN: buddha?
(10:34 PM) Thusness: in
a period where there is no buddha's teaching, u talk about buddha?
(10:34 PM) AEN: lol
(10:35 PM) AEN: for
clarity.. bliss..?
(10:35 PM) Thusness: after
the glimpses, what is the first thing u want to do?
(10:36 PM) AEN: dunnu..
sustain or experience it again?
(10:36 PM) Thusness: yes
(10:36 PM) Thusness: what
dunno
(10:36 PM) AEN: lol
(10:36 PM) Thusness: how
will u able to progress then without teacher
(10:37 PM) Thusness: after
the glimpses, u r guided by that experience
(10:37 PM) Thusness: u
wanted to find out more about the experience
(10:37 PM) Thusness: to
prolong it
(10:37 PM) Thusness: to
master it
(10:37 PM) Thusness: to
find out the peak of it
(10:37 PM) Thusness: right?
(10:37 PM) AEN: oh
i get wat u mean haha
(10:37 PM) AEN: ya
(10:38 PM) Thusness: so
what is anatta and emptiness about?
(10:38 PM) Thusness: it
is a teaching of buddha to do that.
(10:38 PM) Thusness: about
right undersanding of the experience
(10:38 PM) Thusness: in
fact any pure experience
(10:39 PM) Thusness: what
is it so that the peak of experience can be understood correctly and
effortlessly sustained.
(10:39 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:39 PM) Thusness: it
already is but just need to know the propensities at work.
(10:39 PM) Thusness: but
in a period of no buddha teachings, u r guided by ur own inner wisdom.
(10:39 PM) Thusness: u
find out more
(10:40 PM) Thusness: u
attempt to sustain
(10:40 PM) Thusness: to
maintain but u can't
(10:40 PM) Thusness: u
struggled
(10:40 PM) Thusness: u
meditate
(10:40 PM) Thusness: u
speculate
(10:40 PM) Thusness: u
think
(10:40 PM) Thusness: then
u realised more and more like a scientist
(10:41 PM) Thusness: then
u know what are the important conditions that require u to have such
experiences
(10:41 PM) Thusness: u
know tat u must be non-conceptual
(10:41 PM) Thusness: u
have to let go
(10:41 PM) Thusness: but
still u r unable to reach effortlessness luminosity
(10:41 PM) Thusness: u
go on...trying
(10:41 PM) Thusness: get
it?
(10:41 PM) AEN: ya
(10:42 PM) Thusness: this
is what buddha did...
(10:42 PM) Thusness: u
must first have some experience
(10:42 PM) Thusness: the
more experienced practitioners can only guide u.
(10:42 PM) Thusness: buddha
is one that has reached the highest wisdom and achievement
(10:43 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:43 PM) Thusness: so
we follow
(10:43 PM) Thusness: if
there isn't one...then u are guided by ur own inner wisdom
(10:43 PM) Thusness: till
u understand the 'already is' vs propensities
(10:44 PM) AEN: back
(10:44 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:44 PM) Thusness: at
present u must learn how to profound ur experience
(10:44 PM) Thusness: know
what conciousness is.
(10:45 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:45 PM) Thusness: stage
1, 2 and 3 are advaita vedanta
(10:45 PM) AEN: oic
(10:46 PM) Thusness: what
u experienced is similar to ramana maharishi
(10:46 PM) Thusness: he
went through the same question pretending that he is dead.
(10:46 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:47 PM) Thusness: a
person undergoing stage 1 when he experiences stage 2, he might not know the
difference.
(10:47 PM) AEN: how
come
(10:47 PM) Thusness: there
is no insight into it...
(10:47 PM) Thusness: because
of propensities
(10:47 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:48 PM) Thusness: he
might not be able to see the conditions
(10:48 PM) Thusness: so
stage 1 is inner, stage 2 is outer
(10:49 PM) Thusness: but
deep in these practitioners, the views are still dual.
(10:50 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:52 PM) Thusness: u
must also be deeply aware of these tendencies and their strength to blind
(10:53 PM) Thusness: and
that is what consciousness is all about.
(10:53 PM) Thusness: luminosity
and tendencies and emptiness
(10:53 PM) Thusness: that
is all.
(10:53 PM) AEN: oic..
Session Start: Sunday, March 16, 2008
(12:35 PM) Thusness: posted.
(12:35 PM) Thusness: it
is not appropriate to ask me whether it is nirodha samapatti.
(12:35 PM) Thusness: as
it is mislead ppl thinking of ones attainment.
(12:35 PM) Thusness: will
mislead
(12:40 PM) Thusness: ic.
(12:40 PM) Thusness: what
i said is stage 3.
(12:40 PM) AEN: btw
i tink at first i tink its a little bit scary... but i just let go
(12:41 PM) AEN: oic
(12:43 PM) Thusness: I
think i stated quite clearly in stage 3.
(12:43 PM) Thusness: the
mind after going through few of these experiences need to sort out and
integrate all these experiences.
(12:44 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:44 PM) Thusness: therefore
i tell u to drop
(12:44 PM) Thusness: for
dropping is the antidote of intense vividness
(12:44 PM) Thusness: and
dropping allows u to have another experience
(12:45 PM) AEN: different experience?
(12:45 PM) Thusness: yes
(12:45 PM) Thusness: did
i tell u it is the same experience?
(12:45 PM) Thusness: read
what i wrote about stage 3.
(12:45 PM) AEN:
However I came to one important understanding –
The ‘I’ is the root cause of all artificialities, true
freedom is in spontaneity. Surrender into complete nothingness and everything
simply Self So.
(12:45 PM) AEN: this?
(12:45 PM) Thusness: yes
(12:45 PM) Thusness: i
din tok about luminosity
(12:46 PM) Thusness: clarity
(12:46 PM) Thusness: i
said it is a state of oblivious
(12:46 PM) Thusness: i
go makan first and tell u later...
(12:46 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:47 PM) Thusness: the
purpose of me telling u to drop is for u to get around the problem of intense
luminosity and at the same time experience naturalness and spontaneity by way
of dropping.
(12:47 PM) Thusness: however
all these experiences contribute later to the insight of anatta.
(12:47 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:47 PM) Thusness: or
great clarity of anatta.
(12:48 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:48 PM) Thusness: therefore
i told u to summarize at the same time.
(12:48 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:48 PM) Thusness: and
also learn how to drop
(12:49 PM) AEN: oic
(12:51 PM) Thusness: anatta
is like the integration of both
(12:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:52 PM) Thusness: with
right understanding.
(12:52 PM) AEN: icic..
Session Start: Sunday, March 16, 2008
(2:11 PM) AEN: continue
dropping?
(2:12 PM) Thusness: not
only that
(2:16 PM) AEN: the
experience of vivid luminosity?
(2:16 PM) Thusness: kok
ur head!
(2:16 PM) AEN: lol
(2:16 PM) AEN: understand
anatta?
(2:16 PM) Thusness: yeah
(2:16 PM) Thusness: summarize
it.
(2:17 PM) Thusness: with
ur experience relate it.
(2:17 PM) AEN: lol
the taoist guy asked me ++GeNoTaUr++
2008 taiwan presidential elections says:
so being and non being matually creates each other is
wrong ?
(2:17 PM) AEN: oic
(2:17 PM) Thusness: with
luminosity and dropping, u experience new frontiers and refinement of what u
know about consciousness then continue to summarize it.
(2:17 PM) Thusness: and
take the bahiya sutta seriously until the insight dawn.
(2:18 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:18 PM) AEN: btw
someone asking me wat does emptiness giving rise to form means in taoism
(2:19 PM) Thusness: it
is a different concept.
(2:19 PM) Thusness: not
the same as buddhism.
(2:19 PM) AEN: icic
(2:19 PM) AEN: then
wat it means
(2:19 PM) Thusness: it
is tao through yin and yang interaction
(2:20 PM) AEN: oic
(2:21 PM) AEN: btw
entering oblivious isnt it the experience u told longchen not to get into last
time?
(2:21 PM) Thusness: nope
(2:21 PM) Thusness: i
said presence is more important
(2:21 PM) Thusness: i
did not deny that state.
(2:22 PM) AEN: oic
presence is more impt?
(2:22 PM) Thusness: u
r seeking a state.
(2:22 PM) Thusness: that
is the problem of sentient being.
(2:22 PM) AEN: lzls
also said about 'pian kong' and is complete absence even no awareness but we
shldnt get into the state, awareness more impt
(2:22 PM) AEN: icic
(2:23 PM) Thusness: i
did not deny "I AMness" either
(2:23 PM) Thusness: I
only say it is not what it is claimed to be.
Ultimate, changeless, independent.
(2:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:24 PM) Thusness: There
is no denial of anything. It is to
correctly understand the nature of this experience.
(2:24 PM) AEN: (3:02
AM) AEN: ajahn brahm: "Then superpower mindfulness takes the jhana
experience just past, a sustained experience of the citta set apart from the
five senses, as its object of investigation. Only in this way will the truth be
seen that the citta is anatta, that mind consciousness is subject to arising
and passing, that it is neither "me" nor "mine" nor a self,
that it is neither God nor cosmic consciousness -- that it is just citta, a
flame burning because of fuel."
(3:05 AM) AEN: "...The citta too depends on fuel.
The suttas say that the citta depends on nama-rupa (body and objects of mind)
and when nama rupa ceases, the citta completely ceases. It goes out. It
"nibbanas." It doesn't go anywhere, it just ceases to exist. Interestingly,
the two famous bhikkunis Kisagotami and Patacara became fully enlightened when
they saw the flame of a lamp go out."
(2:24 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:24 PM) Thusness: when
u understand it wrongly, u sought after it.
(2:24 PM) AEN: oic
(2:24 PM) Thusness: when
it is understood correctly, it is everywhere.
(2:24 PM) Thusness: that
is the whole purpose.
(2:24 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:24 PM) Thusness: Yes
what ajahn brahm put is quite clear.
(2:25 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:26 PM) Thusness: a
person that experiences 'going out' is not interested in existence or
non-existence.
(2:26 PM) Thusness: a
person that is dualistic is interested in do 'I' exist after 'going out'.
(2:28 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:28 PM) AEN: lol
(2:30 PM) Thusness: anatta
has the 2 characteristics of 'dropping' and 'vividness'
(2:30 PM) Thusness: but
the way towards it is the arising of insight.
Not by any act of effort.
(2:31 PM) Thusness: It
is the arising of prajna wisdom of no-self as an already experientially in
every moment and manifestation.
(2:32 PM) Thusness: when
the insight is fully clear and sunk in our inmost consciousness, u will be
vividly clear and effortless and spontaneous.
U neither know or not know.
(2:32 PM) Thusness: Nor
are u troubled by arbitrary thoughts of life and death.
(2:32 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:33 PM) Thusness: u
do not entertain a particular system of thoughts and engage in useless and
fruitless argument that is dualistic in nature.
(2:34 PM) Thusness: for
u do not see 'essence' in anything.
Coming and going of an 'essence' no more troubles u.
(2:34 PM) Thusness: and
u do not think that way. Experiences is
not bounded that way.
(2:34 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:35 PM) Thusness: ur
undertanding slowly enters into spontaneity, unconditioned, unborn, intuitive
and vivid.
(2:35 PM) Thusness: there
is no vagueness.
(2:35 PM) Thusness: in
understanding.
(2:35 PM) Thusness: the
dualistic framework is gone.
(2:35 PM) Thusness: many
masters now over claim their experiences.
(2:35 PM) Thusness: even
many so called zen masters anyhow anyhow
(2:35 PM) Thusness: :P
(2:36 PM) AEN: lol
(2:36 PM) Thusness: like
what u experienced is considered enlightenment.
(2:36 PM) Thusness: they
experienced non-conceptuality but does not understand the core of buddhism.
(2:36 PM) AEN: usually
those who think they're enlightened are those that experienced "that deep and utimate conviction, that
certainty beyond doubt of your very own existence -- "I AM'. rite
(2:36 PM) AEN: oic
(2:36 PM) Thusness: yeah
(2:36 PM) Thusness: Even
some zen masters.
(2:37 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:37 PM) Thusness: david
loy wrote pretty well about non-dual but missed it. He under-estimated the teaching of Bahiya
Sutta.
(2:38 PM) Thusness: And
remarked that it is not clear that buddha spoke of non-dual experiences.
(2:38 PM) AEN: he
wrote about bahiya sutta a few times also
(2:38 PM) AEN: oic
(2:38 PM) Thusness: That
is a wrong concept.
(2:38 PM) Thusness: in
fact it is most clear that Bahiya Sutta taught the peak of non-dual experience.
(2:38 PM) Thusness: That
is the correct view.
(2:38 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:39 PM) Thusness: But
David Loy present a very good foundation for one to understand non-dual
experience.
(2:39 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:39 PM) Thusness: It
is difficult to find such explanation in words.
(2:39 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:41 PM)
Thusness: where u get that from, the
subject A.
(2:42 PM) AEN: back..
lol my sis comp motherboard burst... now going to buy laptop
(2:42 PM) AEN: from
david loy's book
(2:42 PM) AEN: the
person said at first is blue, the mist, then like oceanic
(2:42 PM) AEN: isit
like the oceanic experience u said
(2:42 PM) Thusness: which
book?
(2:43 PM) AEN: nonduality
(2:43 PM) Thusness: non-duality?
(2:43 PM) AEN: yea
(2:43 PM) Thusness: or
those i lent u?
(2:43 PM) AEN: nope
nonduality
(2:43 PM) Thusness: i
don't remember reading it.
(2:43 PM) AEN: nonduality
i bought i tink
(2:43 PM) AEN: isit
(2:43 PM) AEN: chapter
2, nondual perception
(2:43 PM) Thusness: i
will re-read again. :P
(2:43 PM) Thusness: no
time these days.
(2:43 PM) Thusness: lol
(2:43 PM) AEN: oic
(2:44 PM) AEN: but
the thing i copied is like stage 2?
(2:44 PM) Thusness: The
more important stuff is do u understand what i wrote about the 6 stages?
(2:44 PM) AEN: think
so
(2:44 PM) Thusness: till
now u still can't relate?
(2:44 PM) AEN: lol
(2:45 PM) AEN: In
later sessions Subject A described a "filmn of blue" -- later a
"mist" and then "a sea of blue" -- that developed as the
boundaries of the vase dissolved, covering the table on which the vase sat and
the wall behind it, giving them all a blue color. She experienced some anxiety
in that "it [this sea of blue] lost its boundaries and I might lose mine
too... I was swimming in a sea of blue and I felt for a moment that I was going
to drown..."
(2:45 PM) AEN: isit
wat u said absorption until experience becomes oceanic
(2:45 PM) Thusness: i
got to read first.
(2:45 PM) AEN: also
she said she experienced anxiety or fear... tats common rite.. i tink at first
it feels a bit scary and weird but just let go
(2:45 PM) AEN: oic
(2:46 PM) Thusness: When
the insight of anatta truly arise, there is absolutely no fear of letting go of
the 'I'. It is natural and understood as
our natural state.
(2:47 PM) Thusness: anyway,
u should look for ur master and teacher to relate ur experience.
(2:47 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:48 PM) Thusness: just
don't get too attached to it.
(2:48 PM) Thusness: but
correctly understand it.
(2:48 PM) AEN: icic
(2:48 PM) Thusness: But
lzls insight is still not there. :P (Comments by Soh in 2022: my local dharma teacher Li Zhu Lao Shi has progressed from I AM to anatta since, see Singaporean Dharma Teacher Li Zhu Lao Shi (丽珠老师))
(2:49 PM) Thusness: u
might want to look for chen ming an.
(2:49 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:49 PM) AEN: still
not there as in anatta?
(2:49 PM) Thusness: yes
(2:49 PM) AEN: teacher
chen coming year end
(2:49 PM) AEN: icic
(2:52 PM) AEN: yesterday
i try asking 'who am i' or 'without thoughts or symbols how is 'I'
experienced'... wat i experience is more like conscious presence more like 'i
am'
(2:52 PM) Thusness: continue
(2:53 PM) Thusness: i
will ask u further.
(2:53 PM) AEN: but i
din experience 'dissolving self'... as in not like the other kind of experience
(2:53 PM) AEN: huh
(2:53 PM) Thusness: the
kind of experience of forms and nothing else.
(2:53 PM) Thusness: no-self?
(2:53 PM) AEN: ya
(2:53 PM) Thusness: non-dual.
(2:53 PM) AEN: i
mean i din experience tat yesterday
(2:54 PM) Thusness: means
u never experience the non-dual epxerience.
(2:54 PM) AEN: ya
(2:54 PM) AEN: cos i
was asking the qn
(2:54 PM) Thusness: u
experience the "AMness"
(2:54 PM) AEN: 'without
symbols or thoughts what does 'I' feel like'
(2:54 PM) AEN: oic
(2:54 PM) Thusness: ask
this "before birth, who r u"
(2:54 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:54 PM) AEN: y
'before birth'
(2:55 PM) Thusness: don't
ask lah
(2:55 PM) AEN: lol
Session Start: Sunday, March 16, 2008
(9:11 PM) AEN: longchen
replied today Sorry... haven't come up for a long time.
I read a bit about your post. IMO, the death experience
is not the same as what you described. Total shut of thoughts and sense...
cannot be cognited.... there is no understanding of anything there for the
split second that the shut down is experienced.
(9:41 PM) Thusness: yes
(9:42 PM) AEN: death
is like stage 3 rite
(9:42 PM) AEN: like
clinical death experience?
(9:43 PM) Thusness: it
is not like it is like stage 3. It is ur
are assuming ur present experience to infer the complete experience of 'death'
or the total dissolution of 'I'.
(9:45 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:45 PM) Thusness: Whatever
I told u don't have to post.
(9:45 PM) AEN: lol
ok
(9:45 PM) Thusness: coz
certain thing i don't want ppl to know.
(9:46 PM) Thusness: they
are not in constant interaction with me
(9:46 PM) Thusness: when
they practice accordingly who is there to help?
(9:46 PM) Thusness: u?
(9:46 PM) AEN: wat u
mean
(9:47 PM) Thusness: if
ppl follow according what that is being conversed and there is problem, who is
there to help?
(9:47 PM) Thusness: u
go help them or what?
(9:47 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:47 PM) Thusness: because
u r in constant interaction with me, when u have the problem, i know how to
help.
(9:47 PM) Thusness: but
they are neither here nor there.
(9:48 PM) Thusness: what
that is suitable is not really suitable for other ppl.
(9:48 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:48 PM) Thusness: what
is intense luminosity?
(9:48 PM) Thusness: do
i tell them to ask "before birth who r u"
(9:49 PM) Thusness: don't
anyhow write about what i told u.
(9:49 PM) Thusness: especially
when it is not about buddhism.
(9:49 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:49 PM) Thusness: take
it out.
(9:49 PM) AEN: yea i
removed it
(9:49 PM) Thusness: stage
one to 3 is not about Buddhism.
(9:49 PM) Thusness: if
it is about vipassana or insight meditation, it is okie.
(9:50 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:50 PM) Thusness: These
are not the right practice.
(9:50 PM) Thusness: short
cut somemore
(9:50 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:51 PM) Thusness: when
u said about fusing into everything, I just warn u about being to conclusive.
(9:51 PM) Thusness: u
missed some other points.
(9:52 PM) Thusness: what
u experienced is not Buddhist anatta yet though it is non-dual.
(9:52 PM) Thusness: insight
into anatta is still not there.
(9:52 PM) Thusness: but
don't go around posting question like 'before birth, who are u'
(9:52 PM) Thusness: if
got problem, u go solve for them ah
(9:52 PM) Thusness: or
telling them to drop
(9:53 PM) Thusness: they
can become zombie leh
(9:53 PM) AEN: lol
(9:53 PM) Thusness: trance
like leh
(9:53 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:53 PM) Thusness: spirit
can enter leh
(9:53 PM) Thusness: don't
anyhow go write without not knowing it.
(9:53 PM) AEN: huh
really? spirit can enter?
(9:53 PM) Thusness: yeah
(9:53 PM) AEN: u
mean if enter into oblivious
(9:53 PM) Thusness: yes
(9:53 PM) AEN: then
how
(9:53 PM) Thusness: how
what?
(9:53 PM) AEN: i
mean how to avoid
(9:54 PM) Thusness: did
u tell ppl to practice this way?
(9:54 PM) AEN: no
(9:54 PM) AEN: lol
(9:54 PM) Thusness: then?
(9:54 PM) Thusness: what
how?
(9:54 PM) AEN: i
mean if i practice or u practice
(9:54 PM) AEN: lol
(9:54 PM) Thusness: total
surrendering with certain chant can get u into that if there is genuine
intention to invite.
(9:54 PM) Thusness: so
don't anyhow anyhow
(9:55 PM) AEN: oic
so dun chant that chant can liao?
(9:55 PM) Thusness: it
depends
(9:55 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:55 PM) Thusness: but
luminosity of non-dual normally prevent this sort of stuff from happening.
(9:55 PM) Thusness: when
u dropped, u go through various phases
(9:56 PM) Thusness: especially
the cycle of sleep
(9:56 PM) Thusness: u
r going through the cycles via meditation
(9:56 PM) Thusness: u
will and might have images
(9:56 PM) Thusness: it
all depends
(9:56 PM) Thusness: drop
and drop and drop
(9:56 PM) Thusness: like
ur lower half of ur body numb
(9:56 PM) AEN: images
of wat
(9:56 PM) AEN: oic
(9:56 PM) Thusness: dunno
(9:57 PM) Thusness: it
depends on ur conditions
(9:57 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:57 PM) Thusness: but
because in ur case, ur luminosity is already there
(9:57 PM) AEN: but i
dun tink i can sustain leh
(9:57 PM) Thusness: it
is prevents u from entering a state of oblivious.
(9:57 PM) Thusness: not
so easy lah
(9:57 PM) AEN: icic
(9:58 PM) Thusness: only
ppl like TWE or Nub...
(9:58 PM) Thusness: dangerous
(9:58 PM) AEN: hahaha
(9:58 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:58 PM) Thusness: so
don't go around talking when u r not sure.
(9:58 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:58 PM) Thusness: I
tell u and u tell ppl is different.
(9:58 PM) Thusness: do
u see me writing about that in posts?
(9:58 PM) Thusness: i
merely clarify wrong understanding.
(9:59 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:00 PM) AEN: no
wonder last time got ppl experience posession during meditation
(10:00 PM) AEN: then
meet lzls then lzls say better stop meditating liao if meditate more will be
worse
(10:00 PM) AEN: then
the other time she said when meditate better sit in front of buddha.. more
'brightness'
(10:00 PM) Thusness: because
the luminosity isn't there.
(10:00 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:01 PM) Thusness: when
there is luminosity, it is difficult.
(10:01 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:02 PM) Thusness: i
told u to drop because u might experience intense luminosity later
(10:02 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:05 PM) AEN: when
there is luminosity, it is difficult. --> yea my master and teachers say
when the mind has 'brightness' such things wont happen
(10:06 PM) Thusness: yes
(10:06 PM) Thusness: therefore
u must see conditions
(10:06 PM) Thusness: what
is that person in...is he suitable?
(10:07 PM) Thusness: then
when there is intensity of brightness, what are the side effect?
(10:07 PM) Thusness: how
to counter it or balance it.
(10:07 PM) Thusness: and
what is the next phase.
(10:08 PM) AEN: dropping?
(10:09 PM) Thusness: U
might want to try the koan.
(10:09 PM) AEN: u
mean who am i?
(10:09 PM) AEN: b4
birth who am i
(10:10 PM) Thusness: yeah
(10:10 PM) AEN: icic
(10:10 PM) AEN: but
that one also lead to luminosity rite
(10:11 PM) Thusness: don't
worry nothing mystical will happen. :P
(10:11 PM) Thusness: it
is just reconfirming certain experience that u already have.
(10:11 PM) AEN: lol
(10:11 PM) AEN: icic
(10:11 PM) Thusness: except
that it is clearer. :)
(10:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:13 PM) Thusness: certain
experience it is difficult for u to re-experience it.
(10:14 PM) Thusness: the
koan will help u to relive certain experience and this time will be more clear
and u can tell me more.
(10:14 PM) Thusness: after
that, the koan is deemed useless. :)
(10:14 PM) Thusness: even
if u asked again, the same effect will not come.
(10:15 PM) AEN: back
(10:15 PM) AEN: oic
(10:15 PM) AEN: becomes
useless?
(10:15 PM) AEN: but
i tot u said last time
(10:15 PM) AEN: for
the ex-monk, the koan will keep profunding his experience
(10:15 PM) AEN: or
something like tat?
(10:18 PM) Thusness: i
think u might have misinterpeted what i said.
(10:18 PM) Thusness: anyway
learn how to drop
(10:18 PM) Thusness: it
is important for u.
(10:18 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:21 PM) Thusness: does
the non-dual experience occur to u again?
(10:21 PM) AEN: since
that day nope.. i also told u yesterday i was asking more like 'who am i'
(10:21 PM) AEN: and
wat i sense is more like 'inner'
(10:21 PM) AEN: rather
than 'outer'
(10:21 PM) Thusness: why
is this so?
(10:22 PM) AEN: why
is wat? inner?
(10:22 PM) Thusness: why
the experience never re-cur?
(10:22 PM) AEN: dunnu..
din drop enough?
(10:24 PM) Thusness: no
lah
(10:24 PM) AEN: cos
i was inquiring on the 'subject'
(10:24 PM) Thusness: coz
u r thinking stage 2.
(10:25 PM) AEN: huh
(10:25 PM) Thusness: :)
(10:25 PM) AEN: wat
u mean.. lol
(10:25 PM) Thusness: what
trigger the experience of fusing into everything
(10:25 PM) AEN: contemplating
death
(10:25 PM) AEN: the
first time
(10:26 PM) AEN: then
the second time.. i tink i just let go or drop
(10:26 PM) Thusness: yeah
(10:26 PM) Thusness: anyway
learn how to drop.
(10:27 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:27 PM) AEN: btw
u said dropping leads to oblivious
(10:27 PM) Thusness: not
to relive the experience.
(10:27 PM) Thusness: yeah
(10:27 PM) AEN: but
in my case it seems it leads to intensifying lumionsity?
(10:27 PM) AEN: lol
(10:27 PM) Thusness: yes.
(10:27 PM) Thusness: i
want u to let go more and more and not about the luminosity
(10:28 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:29 PM) Thusness: ur
conscious mind does not know but ur subsconcious mind knows.
(10:30 PM) Thusness: so
when u think of what is the meaning of of live as if u never existed, dropping,
luminosity...
(10:30 PM) Thusness: the
experience manifest
(10:30 PM) AEN: subconscious
mind knows the experience of luminosity?
(10:30 PM) Thusness: nope...subconscious
knows it from what u have summarized.
(10:31 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:31 PM) Thusness: if
u have not summarized and do accordingly, the experience will not come so fast.
(10:31 PM) Thusness: it
normally takes several years.
(10:31 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:32 PM) Thusness: but
the foundation is not there. Not as in
the case of advaita practitioners.
(10:32 PM) AEN: oiuc..
(10:32 PM) Thusness: or
zen students.
(10:33 PM) AEN: icic..
ya bcos of lack of emphasis on teaching rite
(10:33 PM) AEN: keep
pointing to direct experience and non conceptuality
(10:33 PM) Thusness: yes
(10:33 PM) AEN: icic
(10:34 PM) Thusness: if
u did what i said last time and u meditate diligently, then it is different.
(10:34 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:35 PM) Thusness: when
ur understanding reaches sufficient depth, what u must have is merely the right
practice.
(10:35 PM) Thusness: then
the experience will come.
(10:35 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:35 PM) Thusness: so
it only takes weeks or months for the glimpse to emerge.
(10:36 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:36 PM) Thusness: for
optimistic, it takes years of meditation.
(10:36 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:36 PM) Thusness: yet
he doesn't know what is it.
(10:36 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:36 PM) AEN: then
how about ppl like eckhart tolle :P
(10:36 PM) AEN: lol
(10:36 PM) AEN: so
sudden
(10:37 PM) Thusness: but
his meditative strength is stronger.
(10:37 PM) AEN: or
ramana
(10:37 PM) AEN: oic
(10:37 PM) AEN: ya
(10:37 PM) Thusness: as
the foundation is stronger.
(10:37 PM) AEN: icic
(10:37 PM) Thusness: but
he has not experienced the 'forms' of awareness.
(10:38 PM) Thusness: or
non-dual as in the case of ken wilber.
(10:38 PM) AEN: optimistic?
(10:38 PM) AEN: oic
(10:38 PM) Thusness: normally
he said take 20 yrs.
(10:38 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:38 PM) Thusness: but
what he meant is insight.
(10:38 PM) Thusness: insight
of non-dual but not anatta yet.
(10:39 PM) Thusness: anatta
is the natural state of non-dual accomplished by the right understanding.
(10:39 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:39 PM) AEN: stage
4 is anatta already?
(10:39 PM) Thusness: nope
(10:39 PM) Thusness: stage
5.
(10:39 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:39 PM) Thusness: stage
4 is non-dual with insight of longchen.
(10:40 PM) AEN: so
longchen still stage 4?
(10:40 PM) AEN: longchen
not yet anatta?
(10:40 PM) Thusness: going
5.
(10:40 PM) AEN: icic
(10:40 PM) Thusness: is
anatta but needs the bahiya sutta stanza.
(10:40 PM) Thusness: but
don't say i said he is stage 4 hah.
(10:40 PM) AEN: hahaha
(10:40 PM) AEN: ok
(10:41 PM) Thusness: if
got chance just focus on the bahiya sutta.
(10:41 PM) AEN: me?
(10:41 PM) AEN: or
him
(10:41 PM) Thusness: him.
(10:41 PM) AEN: icic
(10:41 PM) Thusness: it
is different from buddhaghosa stanza.
(10:41 PM) AEN: how
come
(10:41 PM) Thusness: it
is one step further.
(10:41 PM) Thusness: :)
(10:41 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:41 PM) Thusness: don't
tell u.
(10:42 PM) AEN: buddhaghosa
only anagami, not yet arhat :P
(10:42 PM) Thusness: like
the question i posted to spwn07 and "before birth, who r u"
(10:42 PM) Thusness: have
different implications.
(10:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:42 PM) Thusness: who
tell u that?
(10:42 PM) Thusness: don't
anyhow say
(10:42 PM) AEN: buddhaghosa
(10:42 PM) AEN: he
wrote he's an anagami
(10:42 PM) AEN: in
his book i tink
(10:43 PM) Thusness: did
he say that?
(10:43 PM) AEN: yea..
(10:43 PM) Thusness: in
the path of purification?
(10:43 PM) AEN: yea
(10:43 PM) Thusness: interesting.
(10:44 PM) AEN: theres
another one rather similar
(10:44 PM) AEN: The
Path of Freedom (Vimuttimagga) by The Arahant Upatissa,
(10:44 PM) Thusness: both
stanza are equally important.
(10:44 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:45 PM) Thusness: but
whether one can penetrate into the deeper meaning of bahiya sutta, it depends
on yuan.
(10:45 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:47 PM) Thusness: no
need to write that lah
(10:47 PM) Thusness: just
eliminate that post.
(10:47 PM) AEN: hahaha
ok
(10:47 PM) Thusness: say
right undersanding of Buddhism practice is more important.
(10:48 PM) Thusness: just
practice insight meditation from a qualified teacher that is all.
(10:48 PM) Thusness: whatever
said is not suitable.
(10:48 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:48 PM) AEN: i
say that too?
(10:49 PM) Thusness: why
when Buddha taught so clearly the path, u tok so much unrelated stuff.
(10:49 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:49 PM) Thusness: Whatever
i told u and experience till now is more advaita sort of experience.
(10:49 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:49 PM) Thusness: take
out the post.
(10:50 PM) Thusness: don't
say i said this or that.
(10:50 PM) Thusness: kok
ur head.
(10:50 PM) AEN: lol
(10:50 PM) AEN: Thusness
says:
say right undersanding of Buddhism practice is more
important.
Thusness says:
just practice insight meditation from a qualified teacher
that is all.
Thusness says:
whatever said is not suitable.
(10:50 PM) AEN: i
say all these?
(10:51 PM) Thusness: just
say yes and look for a qualified masters.
(10:51 PM) AEN: yes?
(10:51 PM) Thusness: Don't
say i said this or that.
(10:51 PM) AEN: Right
understanding of Buddhist practice is more important. Just practice insight
meditation from a qualified master/teacher. Whatever said is not suitable.
(10:51 PM) AEN: i
say this?
(10:51 PM) Thusness: Whatever
said is not suitable and is not required.
(10:52 PM) AEN: Sorry,
removed a conversation from this post.
Right understanding of Buddhist practice is more
important. Just practice insight meditation from a qualified master/teacher.
Whatever said is not suitable and is not required.
(10:52 PM) AEN: ok
(10:52 PM) Thusness: Nevertheless,
right understanding of Buddhist practice is most important. Just practice
insight meditation from a qualified master/teacher. That is safest.
(10:53 PM) AEN: no
need "Whatever said is not suitable and is not required.?
(10:54 PM) Thusness: yeah
(10:54 PM) AEN: ok
(10:54 PM) Thusness: u
should know very clearly that is buddhist practice or not.
(10:55 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:55 PM) Thusness: how
come it returns back to the previous one.
(10:55 PM) AEN: u
din reload i tink
(10:55 PM) AEN: press
F5
(10:56 PM) Thusness: nope
reloaded
(10:56 PM) AEN: ok
i try reloading
(10:56 PM) AEN: weird..
server like not responding
(10:57 PM) Thusness: Whatever
i told u is just to let u have some experiences.
(10:57 PM) AEN: reloaded
(10:57 PM) Thusness: after
that u should not seek fast experiences and practice insight meditation.
(10:57 PM) AEN: correct
leh
(10:57 PM) AEN: shld
be displaying "
Sorry, removed a conversation from this post as it is not
so suitable.
Nevertheless, right understanding of Buddhist practice is
most important. Just practice insight meditation from a qualified
master/teacher. That is safest.
"
(10:57 PM) Thusness: yeah
(10:57 PM) AEN: oic
(10:58 PM) Thusness: after
there is insight into anatta, then vipassana is as natural as it can be.
(10:58 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:58 PM) Thusness: however
after some clarity of stage 1 and 2 experiences, there is no need to profound
it further.
(10:59 PM) Thusness: just
practice insight meditation
(10:59 PM) Thusness: u
will find it easier and contemplate deeply what is the meaning of anatta and
emptiness.
(10:59 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:59 PM) Thusness: it
will provide some foundations for u to move forward...that is all.
(10:59 PM) Thusness: drop
the rest.
(11:00 PM) Thusness: u
don't have to have too intense vivid experiences.
(11:00 PM) Thusness: just
another round of clarity, u will know what i want u to experience.
(11:00 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:01 PM) AEN: wat
u mean
(11:01 PM) Thusness: then
u have a clearer understanding of what i meant.
(11:01 PM) Thusness: and
what advaita practitioner meant.
(11:01 PM) Thusness: now
u should have some clarity of what david carse, ken wilber spoke of non-duality.
(11:01 PM) Thusness: what
is the experience like right?
(11:01 PM) AEN: yea
(11:02 PM) Thusness: u
also know clearly there is stage 1 and 2 right?
(11:02 PM) AEN: yup
(11:02 PM) Thusness: with
vivid experiences.
(11:02 PM) Thusness: though
there is no strength in these experiences.
(11:02 PM) Thusness: there
is a 3rd one, that is stage 3.
(11:02 PM) Thusness: as
what i told u in the post.
(11:02 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:03 PM) Thusness: stage
4 is like stage 2 except with insight.
(11:03 PM) Thusness: the
pathless is seen.
(11:03 PM) Thusness: it
is no more like a stage...but the insight has no deep clarity.
(11:04 PM) Thusness: propensities
need to dissolve to quite sufficiently to go into stage 5 as stated in the
bahiya sutta.
(11:04 PM) AEN: eckhart
tolle is like stage 4?
(11:04 PM) Thusness: that
is a deeper insight.
(11:04 PM) AEN: oic
(11:04 PM) Thusness: don't
ask me lah
(11:04 PM) AEN: lol
(11:04 PM) Thusness: to
me...ehee...like stage 2. :P
(11:04 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:04 PM) Thusness: but
the strength of sustaining is strong.
(11:04 PM) AEN: but
u said there is constant luminosity of observer and observed is one
(11:04 PM) AEN: oic
(11:04 PM) Thusness: tony
parsons is stage 4-5.
(11:05 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:05 PM) Thusness: jeff
foster also.
(11:05 PM) Thusness: observer
and observed as one is non-dual experience.
(11:05 PM) Thusness: stage
2 is non-dual.
(11:05 PM) Thusness: but
there is no insight of no-self.
(11:05 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:06 PM) Thusness: insight
is u know and understand the pathless path of no-self.
(11:06 PM) Thusness: u
see it although it is pathless.
(11:06 PM) Thusness: u
see the path.
(11:06 PM) Thusness: this
is due to insight and therefore there is more permanent lucidity.
(11:06 PM) Thusness: stage
2 remains as a stage
(11:06 PM) Thusness: u
don't know how to get it.
(11:07 PM) Thusness: don't
know when it comes again.
(11:07 PM) Thusness: or
the path towards it.
(11:07 PM) AEN: oic
ya
(11:07 PM) AEN: haha
(11:07 PM) Thusness: longchen
knows it.
(11:07 PM) AEN: oic
(11:07 PM) Thusness: but
needs to further refine it.
(11:07 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:08 PM) Thusness: but
penetrating into the deeper depth of non-dual and into anatta.
(11:08 PM) Thusness: as
stated in the bahiya sutta.
(11:08 PM) Thusness: then
come emptiness.
(11:08 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:08 PM) Thusness: so
u understand more about the various stages?
(11:09 PM) AEN: yea
(11:09 PM) Thusness: stage
1 can be very blissful too.
(11:09 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:09 PM) Thusness: when
the meditative strength is there.
(11:09 PM) Thusness: but
there is no understanding of the 'forms'
(11:09 PM) Thusness: only
the pure sense of existence
(11:09 PM) Thusness: in
thought realm.
(11:10 PM) Thusness: not
in the 'forms'.
(11:10 PM) Thusness: u
should know by now.
(11:10 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:10 PM) AEN: yea
(11:11 PM) Thusness: it
is difficult for ppl who have no experience to know what i meant.
(11:11 PM) Thusness: but
when u have experienced, u will know what i meant.
(11:11 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:19 PM) Thusness
is now Online
Session Start: Monday, March 17, 2008
(12:56 PM) AEN: while
i was inquiring the koan yesterday i had a brief impression that my conscious
presence is everpresent, timeless, eternal, unmoving, formless?
(1:23 PM) AEN: linji
says "Get to know your real self. It has no form, no appearance, no root,
no basis, no abode, but is lively and buoyant. It responds with versatile
facility, but its function cannot be located."
Session Start: Monday, March 17, 2008
(5:41 PM) Thusness: not
good enough.
(5:41 PM) AEN: icic..
Session Start: Monday, March 17, 2008
(8:32 PM) Thusness: u
told this evilgold i practice taoism?
(8:33 PM) AEN: maybe
last time.. i dunnu lol... but the other day i refer him to u cos he kept
asking me taoist things :P
(8:33 PM) AEN: which
i dunno
(8:33 PM) Thusness: Then
why refer to me lah.
(8:34 PM) AEN: cos u
shld know mah haha
(8:34 PM) Thusness: Should
know doesn't mean I have to teach.
(8:34 PM) AEN: oic
(8:34 PM) Thusness: and
all those stuff can just read from books.
(8:34 PM) AEN: oic..
then i tink u refer him to books then
(8:35 PM) Thusness: next
when the position is not there, it is no good to over claim or to assume a
position.
(8:35 PM) Thusness: This
is considered dangerous in taoism.
(8:35 PM) Thusness: That
is, I may not in the correct position to advice and not the right person to
advice.
(8:36 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:37 PM) Thusness: The
questions he asked can be gather from a good book.
(8:37 PM) Thusness: One
of them is Thomas Cleary.
(8:37 PM) AEN: oic..
which bk
(8:37 PM) Thusness: Any
book about Taoism by him.
(8:37 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:38 PM) Thusness: The
essence of Tao cannot be taught.
(8:38 PM) Thusness: It
is like zen or any spiritual practice.
(8:39 PM) Thusness: It
cannot be explained in such a way...
(8:39 PM) Thusness: tell
him to get a good book first.
(8:39 PM) Thusness: He
asked me all those questions that will only lead to further questions.
(8:39 PM) Thusness: By
the way how old is he?
(8:40 PM) AEN: ya i
agree.. and he likes to ask alot of qns hahaha
(8:40 PM) AEN: first
year in NS
(8:40 PM) AEN: i
tink 19
(8:40 PM) AEN: or 20
(8:40 PM) Thusness: ic
(8:40 PM) Thusness: The
market is damn ridiculous, ur dad got kenna or not?
(8:41 PM) AEN: nv
asked..
(8:41 PM) AEN: u?
(8:41 PM) Thusness: ai...many
of my friends kenna.
(8:41 PM) Thusness: I
din really kenna.
(8:41 PM) Thusness: but
have to lost some money next 2 months.
(8:41 PM) AEN: icic..
Session Start: Monday, March 17, 2008
(11:42 PM) AEN: hi
(11:42 PM) AEN: the
buddha said regarding the 18 dhatus:
(11:42 PM) AEN:
Now, if anyone were to say,
?Aside from this
explanation of totality,
I will preach another totality,?
that person
would be speaking empty words,
and being questioned
would not be able to answer.
Why is this ?
Because that person
is talking about something
outside of all possible knowledge.
(11:43 PM) AEN: but
existence of the 'world' apart from the 18 dhatus can be inferred rite...
(11:44 PM) AEN: also
(11:45 PM) AEN: when
the 18 dhatus speak of 'objects of cognition' 'objects of touch'
(11:45 PM) AEN: is
the 'objects' refering to external reality
(11:46 PM) Thusness: u
mean u can hv cognition outside 18 datus?
(11:48 PM) AEN: i
mean if totality is only cognised then isnt it like subjective realism
(11:48 PM) AEN: or
subjective idealism
(11:48 PM) Thusness: is
this what u meant?
(11:49 PM) AEN: huh
(11:49 PM) AEN: ya
(11:50 PM) Thusness: obviously
u do not understand at all the teaching of buddhism
(11:50 PM) AEN: haha..
i tink i know the ans but sometimes still a bit confused
(11:51 PM) Thusness: whatever
taught is abt DO & emptiness.
(11:51 PM) Thusness: anything
of an essence is not buddhism
(11:52 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:53 PM) Thusness: anyway
at ur present understanding, it is difficult to go beyond pure subjectivity
(11:53 PM) AEN: wat
u mean by pure subjectivity
(11:54 PM) Thusness: it
is also good for u to hv direct experience of it.
(11:54 PM) Thusness: advaita
(11:54 PM) AEN: oic
(11:56 PM) AEN: actually
i kind of know that theres no subject and object and appearances are nondual
and conditioned manifestation... but sometimes i still get a bit confused la :P
(11:57 PM) Thusness: the
purpose of buddhism is not to deny any experience but to point out that reality
is not what u perceived it to be.
(11:58 PM) Thusness: when
u say u know, actually u don't really understand yet.
(11:58 PM) AEN: lol
(11:58 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:58 PM) Thusness: for
now just experience non-dual.
(11:59 PM) AEN: oic
(11:59 PM) Thusness: it
is not easy to arise insight of anatta & emptiness
(11:59 PM) Thusness: but
non-dual insight will help.
(12:00 AM) AEN: wats
the diff
(12:00 AM) AEN: as
in anatta and nondual insight
(12:01 AM) Thusness: anatta
is the peak or natural state of non-dual.
(12:01 AM) AEN: oic
(12:03 AM) Thusness: in
anatta, u hv the deepest insight of non-dual & knows exactly why non-dual.
(12:03 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:04 AM) Thusness: see
the 'path' of pathlessness
(12:04 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:04 AM) AEN: huh
(12:04 AM) AEN: wat
is the path of the pathless
(12:04 AM) AEN: as
in no entry and exit?
(12:04 AM) Thusness: now
u cannot know
(12:05 AM) Thusness: pointless
to ask.
(12:05 AM) AEN: oic
(12:05 AM) AEN: stage
4 already pathless rite
(12:05 AM) Thusness: in
stage 4, the insight is already there
(12:06 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:06 AM) Thusness: in
stage 5, the insight is clearest
(12:06 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:07 AM) Thusness: u
do not enter stage 5 as a stage
(12:07 AM) AEN: but
as insight?
(12:07 AM) Thusness: u
'see' it as the natural state of awareness
(12:07 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:09 AM) Thusness: stage
six is the clear understanding of non-inherent aspect of reality
(12:09 AM) Thusness: the
itness completely disappeared
(12:10 AM) Thusness: it
is the experience of the operatmanifestion
(12:10 AM) AEN: stage
stage is the clear understanding of non-inherent aspect of reality --> stage
wat?
(12:10 AM) Thusness: operation
of manifestion as DO
(12:10 AM) Thusness: 6
(12:12 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:12 AM) AEN: itness
means wat
(12:12 AM) AEN: anything
having inherent existence?
(12:13 AM) Thusness: having
essence
(12:13 AM) AEN: like
the idea of something inherently existing apart from cognition?
(12:13 AM) Thusness: yes
(12:13 AM) AEN: oic
(12:13 AM) Thusness: no
(12:13 AM) AEN: oic
(12:13 AM) Thusness: having
essence
(12:13 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:14 AM) Thusness: inherently
existing itself
(12:14 AM) Thusness: just
like 'redness'
(12:14 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:14 AM) Thusness: u
see it. So real. So colorful
(12:15 AM) Thusness: right
in front of u...
(12:16 AM) Thusness: it
cannot be not belonging to the flower
(12:16 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:16 AM) Thusness: but
in reality it doesn't exist the way u thought it to be
(12:17 AM) Thusness: in
ur mind, deep in u, u still c that way.
(12:18 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:18 AM) Thusness: redness
belongs to the flower
(12:18 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:18 AM) Thusness: 'belong'
is the result of inherent view
(12:19 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:20 AM) Thusness: seeing
& taking things inherently
(12:20 AM) AEN: btw
i still tink in terms of 'otherness' like theres something happening at a
different location from here, beyond my cognition... yet buddha says the
totality is the 18 dhatus. so tats dualistic?
(12:21 AM) AEN: as
in my tinking
(12:21 AM) Thusness: yes
(12:21 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:22 AM) AEN: but
whenever we infer thinks we have to do tat dualistically rite
(12:22 AM) Thusness: its
like UG krishamurti say abt body
(12:23 AM) AEN: wat
about it
(12:24 AM) Thusness: there
is always only point or moment of contacts
(12:24 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:24 AM) Thusness: but
we think in terms of 'body'
(12:25 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:25 AM) Thusness: u
will not understand the implication & what he meant
(12:25 AM) AEN: yesterday
i was meditating and the thought arise where is the body... there is no body in
my experience, only sensations etc. body is 'inferred'
(12:26 AM) Thusness: unless
u r sufficiently stable in bare awareness or insight meditation
(12:26 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:26 AM) Thusness: yes
that is a gd start
(12:27 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:27 AM) AEN: actually
i was doing self inquiry :P
(12:27 AM) AEN: but
at one point i asked tat qn
(12:27 AM) Thusness: it
is the depth of experience
(12:27 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:28 AM) Thusness: This
is because u r trained with right understanding
(12:28 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:29 AM) Thusness: otherwise
u will think in terms of self
(12:29 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:29 AM) Thusness: so
what is sensation?
(12:29 AM) AEN: any
form of awareness?
(12:31 AM) Thusness: u
must practice dropping first
(12:31 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:31 AM) Thusness: without
certain experience,
(12:32 AM) Thusness: it
is impossible to know
(12:32 AM) AEN: oic..
Session Start: Tuesday, March 18, 2008
(2:39 AM) AEN: With
sustained attention, coarse contactual sensations gradually gave way to subtle
vibrations of rapid frequency. Persistent concentration on these vibrations
seemed to increase the intensity and field of this experience; awareness of
breathing seemed to have totally dissolved into the ‘sea’ of vibration. In a
sudden and unexpected moment, however, the field of vibrations disappeared, leaving
a pervasive sense of ‘nothingness’ wherein no boundary between the ‘self’ and
the environment existed. I had lost all consciousness of bodily sensations and
thoughts, and awareness, which was initially clear and present at the start of
the practice, now became indistinct and blurred. It was a state in which ‘I’
was not there at all, characterized by the lack rather than presence of clear
awareness. While this may be a glimpse of anatta, albeit an imperfect and
distorted one, it never had the significance and clarity that the second
experience had. --
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.buddhanet.net%2Fanattamed.htm&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Sao7zGYF8WJBKGwtjjFJc600PZ8wpirA52jBAq5V4xo%3D&reserved=0
(3:11 AM) AEN: steven
norquist "This struck a chord in me, I set the book down and stared at a
paper that was sitting on the table in front of me, after about a minute or two
an exciting and frightening thing happened, I disappeared! By that I mean the
middle fell right out of the equation. Normally there would be Steve over here
looking at the paper on the desk over there, now there was only the experience,
"paper" but no Steve over here seeing it. It was clear that the
middle that normally separated the paper from Steve did not really exist, there
was only the experience, "paper." " experience quite similar lol
Session Start: Tuesday, March 18, 2008
(5:53 PM) AEN: hi i
bought two books
(5:54 PM) AEN: one
is maitreya's distinguishing phenomena and pure being
(5:54 PM) AEN: with
commentary by miphan
(5:54 PM) AEN: under
the guidance of khenpo tsultrim gyamtso rinpoche
(5:54 PM) AEN: the
other is Clarifying the natural state by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal
(6:09 PM) AEN: oh i
just realised khenpo tsultrim gyamtso rinpoche is the one who wrote the article
A Teaching on Guru Rinpoche’s Supplication That All
Thoughts Be Self-Liberated
(10:38 PM) AEN: haven
read alot.. just came back from bbq
(10:49 PM) AEN:
It is easy to resolve that (this conscious mind) does not
consist of any shape, colour, location, support, or material substance.
However, if you take it to be a definable entity that is aware and empty and
you remain quietly in that state, you are still unresolved, since that is the
meditative mood of stillness. Therefore, make mandala offerings, supplicate
with deep devotion and investigate each instance of how it is aware, how it is
empty and what its real mode is.
Through this you may find that mind is not comprised of a
concrete or material substance and therefore has no shape or colour, no
dwelling place or support. You may also understand that it is an aware
emptiness that defies any description of being such-and-such -- it is
inexpressible and yet it can be experienced.
When that is the case, the lama should try to present
confusing statements. If the meditator's understanding is merely theory or
hearsay it will be inconsistent and will not withstand scrutiny. If it is
personal experience, it will converge on one point even when he is unable to
articulate with traditional
(10:49 PM) AEN: words.
When this happens, the meditator has reached personal experience.
Even so, there are eloquent and articulate meditators who
lack personal experience. There are also experienced and tongue-tied meditators
who are unable to explain. The lama should therefore let them thoroughly
investigate and resolve this fully through real experience.
While in the previous state of lucid and thoughtfree
shamatha, as before, look directly into your conscious mind. It is a
wakefulness for which no words suffice. It is not a definable entity, but at
the same time, it is a self-knowing aware emptiness that is clear, lucid and
awake. Sustain this without distraction.
(10:54 PM) AEN: from
another part:
(10:54 PM) AEN:
.
.
.
Next, in order to continue to gain personal experience,
examine a particular thought or perception. You may now say, "it does not
have a shape, color, or definable identity. The identity of mind is simply an
aware emptiness!" Or you may deliver some other piece of theoretical
understanding.
However, it isn't certain what you mean by aware
emptiness. Do you mean an aware emptiness that happens after a thought event
has ceased or dissolved? Or is it an aware emptiness while the thought is
present? In the latter case, you may say the state is aware, but it is meaningless
to say it is empty. Scrutinize in this way and continue examining.
No matter what kind of thought occurs, its experience is,
in itself, something unidentifiable -- it is unobstructedly aware and yet not
conceptualizing. As for perceptions, they are a mere impression of unobstructed
presence, which is insubstantial and not a clinging to a solid reality. They
are hard to describe as being such-and-such, and when you understand them to be
this way you have reached personal experience.
Without getting distracte
(10:54 PM) AEN: Without
getting distracted then, simply sustain this aware emptiness that is an
unidentifiable awareness, also referred to as a perceiving emptiness that is
perception devoid of a self-nature.
Someone may say, "When I look directly into a
thought or perception, it dissolves and becomes an aware emptiness." This
is a case of not having established certainty about the nature of thoughts and
perceptions, but rather of using the idea of aware emptiness as an antidote
against them.
(10:57 PM) Thusness: quite
good
(10:59 PM) AEN: then
there are quite a few pointing out instruction.. like actual pointing out of
the innate, pointing out of the innate mind essence, etc etc
(10:59 PM) AEN: and
one of them are pointing out innate thinking and another pointing out innate
perception.. which i tink is about non duality
(10:59 PM) AEN: for
example
(11:00 PM) Thusness: The
mind essence that is empty is most difficult to understand. More difficult to experience than anatta
(11:06 PM) AEN: Pointing
Out Innate Thinking
Second, the meditator should now assume the correct
posture in front of (the master, and be told the following): “Let your mind
remain in its natural way. When thoughts have subsided, your mind is an
intangible, aware emptiness. Be undistracted and look directly into the
identity of this naked state!
“At this moment, allow a feisty thought, such as delight,
to take form. The very moment it vividly occurs, look directly into its
identity from within the state of aware emptiness.
“Now, is this thought the intangible and naked state of
aware emptiness? Or is it absolutely no different from the identity of innate
mind-essence itself? Look!”
Let the meditator look for a short while.
The meditator may say, “It is the aware emptiness. There
seems to be no difference.” If so, ask:
“Is it an aware emptiness after the thought has
dissolved? Or is it an aware emptiness by driving away the thought by
meditation? Or is the vividness of the thought itself and aware emptiness?”
If the meditator says it is like one of the first two
cases, he has not cleared up th
(11:07 PM) AEN: If
the meditator says it is like one of the first two cases, he has not cleared up
the former uncertainties and should therefore be set to resolve this for a few
days.
On the other hand, if he personally experiences it to
belike the latter case, he has seen the identity of thought and can therefore
be given the following pointing-out instruction:
“When you look into a thought’s identity, without having
to dissolve the thought and without having to force it out by meditation, the
vividness of the thought is itself the indescribable and naked state of aware
emptiness. We call this “Seeing the natural face of innate thought”, or,
“Thought dawns as dharmakaya.”
“Previously, when you determined the thought’s identity
and when you investigated the calm and the moving mind, you found that there
was nothing other than this intangible single mind that is a self-knowing,
natural awareness. It is just like the analogy of water and waves.
(11:07 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:10 PM) Thusness: what
is the example?
(11:10 PM) AEN: i
just pasted above :P
(11:10 PM) AEN: u
din receive?
(11:11 PM) AEN: 'pointing
out innate thinking'
(11:11 PM) Thusness: it
said for exmple
(11:12 PM) AEN: did
u see Pointing Out Innate Thinking
Second, the meditator should now assume the correct
posture in front of (the master, and be told the following): “Let your mind
remain in its natural way. When thoughts have subsided, your mind is an
intangible, aware emptiness. Be undistracted and look directly into the
identity of this naked state!
etc etc
(11:12 PM) AEN: never
receive?
(11:13 PM) Thusness: nv
(11:13 PM) AEN: ok
continue from there:
(11:13 PM) AEN: “At
this moment, allow a feisty thought, such as delight, to take form. The very
moment it vividly occurs, look directly into its identity from within the state
of aware emptiness.
(11:13 PM) AEN: “Now,
is this thought the intangible and naked state of aware emptiness? Or is it
absolutely no different from the identity of innate mind-essence itself? Look!”
(11:13 PM) AEN: Let
the meditator look for a short while.
(11:13 PM) AEN: The
meditator may say, “It is the aware emptiness. There seems to be no
difference.” If so, ask:
(11:13 PM) AEN: “Is
it an aware emptiness after the thought has dissolved? Or is it an aware
emptiness by driving away the thought by meditation? Or is the vividness of the
thought itself an aware emptiness?”
(11:13 PM) AEN: If
the meditator says it is like one of the first two cases, he has not cleared up
the former uncertainties and should therefore be set to resolve this for a few
days.
(11:13 PM) AEN: On
the other hand, if he personally experiences it to belike the latter case, he
has seen the identity of thought and can therefore be given the following
pointing-out instruction:
(11:13 PM) AEN: “When
you look into a thought’s identity, without having to dissolve the thought and
without having to force it out by meditation, the vividness of the thought is
itself the indescribable and naked state of aware emptiness. We call this
“Seeing the natural face of innate thought”, or, “Thought dawns as dharmakaya.”
(11:13 PM) AEN: “Previously,
when you determined the thought’s identity and when you investigated the calm
and the moving mind, you found that there was nothing other than this
intangible single mind that is a self-knowing, natural awareness. It is just
like the analogy of water and waves.
(11:13 PM) AEN: etc...
(11:14 PM) AEN: then
theres also innnate pointing of perception
(11:16 PM) Thusness: This
is very good!
(11:16 PM) Thusness: This
is anatta.
(11:16 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:17 PM) Thusness: from
who?
(11:17 PM) AEN: Clarifying
The Natural State by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal
(11:18 PM) AEN: if
im not wrong there are two series and same cover design, only difference in
color
(11:18 PM) AEN: the
other is by Thrangu Rinpoche i tink
(11:18 PM) Thusness: however
this must be extended to all 6 senses
(11:18 PM) AEN: yea
i only copied the innate pointing of thinking
(11:19 PM) Thusness: Actually
it is just insight that is all.
(11:19 PM) AEN: there
is also perception... where it uses visual perception
(11:19 PM) AEN: oic
(11:19 PM) Thusness: it
cannot be attained as a state.
(11:20 PM) Thusness: only
as an insight. Once bahiya sutta is
understood
(11:20 PM) AEN: ...."Previously
you cleared up uncertainties when you looked into the identity of a perception
and resolved that perceptions are mind. Accordingly, the perception is not
outside and the mind is not inside. It is merely, and nothing other than, this
empty and aware mind that appears as a perception. It is exactly like the
example of a dream-object and the dreaming mind..."
(11:20 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:20 PM) Thusness:
it is a natural state
(11:20 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:22 PM) Thusness: empty
luminosity
(11:22 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:22 PM) Thusness: but
must be understood from DO.
(11:23 PM) Thusness: The
first 2 cases is 'I Amness'
(11:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:24 PM) Thusness: I
m glad that it is stated.
(11:26 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:27 PM) AEN: oh
wait
(11:27 PM) AEN: clarifyign
the natural state is not in two series, though it has same cover design as
'Crystal Clear' by thrangu rincpoeh
(11:27 PM) AEN: rinpoche
(11:27 PM) AEN: lol
(11:28 PM) Thusness: where
u get this?
(11:28 PM) Thusness: do
I hv the book?
(11:28 PM) AEN: ya
the same qn is also asked when allowing visual perception such as mountain and
a houe to be vividly experienced, and the books says, "Let the meditator
look. He may say, Theres no difference. Its an intangible, aware
emptienss." If so, then ask:
(11:29 PM) AEN: "Is
it an awre emptiness after hte perceived image has disappered? Or is the image
an awre emptiness by means of cultivating the aware emptiness? Or is the
perceived image itself an aware emptiness?"
(11:31 PM) AEN: then
he goes on to say the fist two cases is tat the meditators has not thoroughly
investigate the above and should be once more sent to meditate and resolve
this. But if he does experience that the vividly perceived visual image itself
-- unidentifiable in any way other than as a mere persence of unconfined
perception -- is an aware emptiness, the master should then give this pointing
out instruction: "When you vividly perceive a mountain or a house, no
matter how this perception appears, it does not need to disappear or be
stopped. Rather, while this perception is experienced, it is itself an intangible,
empty awareness. This is called seeing the identity of perception.
(11:31 PM) AEN: i
got it from Evergreen just now
(11:31 PM) AEN: nope
(11:31 PM) AEN: the
bk u lent me was Crystal Clear
(11:31 PM) AEN: but
no 'Clarifying the Natural State'
(11:31 PM) Thusness: ic
(11:33 PM) Thusness: Anyway
luminosity-emptiness cannot be separated
(11:33 PM) AEN: it
also talks about the 4 yogas, simplicity, one taste, non meditation etc
(11:33 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:33 PM) Thusness: u
must first understand anatta first.
(11:34 PM) Thusness: I
like it.
(11:34 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:34 PM) AEN: it
has guides to practice of shamatha and vipashyana
(11:35 PM) Thusness: Emptiness
must be understood without essence & operate like DO.
(11:35 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:38 PM) Thusness: But
u must be able to correctly discern stage 1 & 2
(11:38 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:39 PM) Thusness: case
1 & 2 is just about stage 1
(11:41 PM) Thusness: when
a person experience stage 2, he might mistaken it that he has understood what
that is described above.
(11:41 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:44 PM) Thusness: when
u read, u r able to discern correctly
(11:44 PM) Thusness: that
is gd.
(11:44 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:44 PM) Thusness: didn't
waste my effort ...haha
(11:44 PM) AEN: lol
(11:45 PM) Thusness: normal
practitioners even after stage 2 will not understand
(11:45 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:46 PM) Thusness: and
is unable to appreciate the passage
(11:46 PM) AEN: i
bought another book which is also all about nonduality
(11:46 PM) AEN: oic
(11:47 PM) Thusness: buddhism
or advaita
(11:48 PM) AEN: buddhism
(11:49 PM) AEN: its
called "maitreya's distinguishing phenomena and pure being"
(11:49 PM) AEN: its
a text by maitreya bodhisattva
(11:49 PM) AEN: commentaries
by Mipham
(11:49 PM) AEN: i
bought it bcos it contains some stuff which i was just contemplating on
yesterday
(11:49 PM) AEN: lol
(11:49 PM) Thusness: is
it good?
(11:49 PM) AEN: haven
read a lot yet... wait i copy for u some parts
(11:53 PM) AEN: ..."Those
who cling compulsively to the existence of outer objects claim, "Outer
objects exist, because no one can deny that anything composed of atoms, such as
mountains and any other object observed in common, exists." But that is
not how it is.
(11:54 PM) AEN: Given
what appear to be outer and perceivable in common, such as mountains and so on,
as the postulate subject, these are not outer referents discrete from the inner
consciousness and existing with a material essence, because they are the inner
perceiving awareness itself appearing as the image of this and that outer
referent for those whose operative habitual tendenceis correspond, just like
forms in a dream.
(11:54 PM) AEN: What
are being called "outer objects observed in common" are not referents
existing as something extrinsic to or other t han consciousness, because they
are only apparently experienced as common by a variety of beings whose
mindstreams are not identical. But this is what proves that they are nothing
other than differeing perceptions of differing mindstreams.
(11:54 PM) AEN: And
how does it prove that? What are claimed to be "factors observed in
common" are proposed as providing the proof for the existence of outer
referents. But these can only be posited as "outer referents experiecned
in common" due to a similarity in the character of their appearance from
the subjective viewpoint of distinct mindstreams. But that means these
appearances are the private impressions of mindstreams which differ among
themselves. And that means they could never constitute common experience.
(11:54 PM) AEN: Thus
to say, "There are outer objects which are something other than a mere
appearance (or impression)" and to say, "Here is one expereinced in
common" could never be demonstrated logically, since, to do so, one would
have to posit the existence of objects other than those which appear to a mind.
But it would make no sense to posit an object that could not appear to any mind,
since it could not be evaluated through valid cognition.
(11:54 PM) AEN: still
typing.. hehe
(11:57 PM) AEN:
On subjecting this so-called "common
experience" to critical scrutiny, the reason for claiming it to be
"common" turns out to be built on the similarity of appearance with
respect to mindstreams which themselves differ, so it follows that, even though
there is a similarity in the appearance, its underlying cause includes no
necessity of a
(11:57 PM) AEN: specific
outer common referent literally existing, just as corresponding appearances
manifest for spectators under the influence of the charm of an illusionist.
Similarly, for creatures whose operative habitual tendenceis correspond, not
only will environements and so on have a similar appearance for as long as the
energy of those habitual
(11:57 PM) AEN: tendenceies
has not been exhausted, but, what is more, the specific cause for their
appearing to be similar will not be existence of a referent on the outside.
Just as something which one type of being sees as water will be seen as
existing under another apperance by others among the six types of beings whose
karmic impressions differ, anything perceived should be understood to be
neither more nor less than a self-manifestation of the mentality internal to a
specific observer.
(11:57 PM) Thusness: The
first book better
(11:57 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:58 PM) AEN: the
second bk is more theoretical i tink
(11:58 PM) Thusness: yes
(11:58 PM) Thusness: first
is a meditative & intuitive experience
(11:59 PM) AEN: btw
those are comments, not the real text by maitreya
(11:59 PM) AEN: icic
(11:59 PM) AEN: the
real text is also included tho
(11:59 PM) Thusness: second
is to logically understand something from a buddhist perspective
(12:00 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:00 AM) Thusness: it
is not an arising of prajna wisdom
(12:00 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:01 AM) Thusness: u
can take first book as ur guide.
(12:01 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:02 AM) Thusness: lend
it to me once u finished
(12:02 AM) AEN: ok
(12:09 AM) Thusness: even
after anatta experience
(12:10 AM) Thusness: u
must practice dropping especially as a lay.
(12:11 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:17 AM) AEN: oh
i just realised the author of Clarifying the Natural State, Dakpo Tashi
Namgyal, is not a modern master.. he's 16th century master
(12:18 AM) AEN: the
book is translated from tibetan by Thrangu Rinpoche
(12:18 AM) Thusness: ic
(12:19 AM) AEN: "The
words of Dakpo Tashi Namgyal are unique. Adorned with plenty of pithy advice
out of his personal experience, practitioners are greatly benefited by his
instructions on how to remove hindrances and progress further. His methods for
practicing Mahamudra are preeminent. This book is indispensable as it focuses
exclusively on practice."
(12:19 AM) Thusness: Tibetan
masters seem to hv deeper insight.
(12:19 AM) AEN: --
Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche
(12:19 AM) AEN: oic
(12:19 AM) AEN: hmm
how come :P
(12:20 AM) AEN: bcos
of the teachings?
(12:20 AM) Thusness: no
insight
(12:20 AM) AEN: huh
(12:21 AM) Thusness: I
m referring to insight
(12:21 AM) AEN: o
icic..
(12:22 AM) Thusness: I
c many dualistic teachings nowadays
(12:22 AM) AEN: oh
i just found out Crystal Clear is Thrangu Rinpoche's "loose commentaries
on "Clarifying the Natural State"" based on talks
(12:22 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:23 AM) Thusness: in
buddhist circles
(12:23 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:23 AM) Thusness: esp
zen
(12:23 AM) AEN: oic
but a few zen masters are quite enlightened rite
(12:24 AM) Thusness: yes
(12:24 AM) AEN: oic
so y isit that many zen ppl are dualistic
(12:24 AM) AEN: due
to lack of proper teaching or guidance or concept?
(12:25 AM) Thusness: yes
(12:25 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:35 AM) Thusness
is now Offline
(12:40 AM) AEN: btw
u know mahamudra also practices self inquiry?
(12:40 AM) AEN: (C)
Finally, practice the meditation by looking directly at self as guided by the
question ‘Who am I?’ This meditation was taught by Milarepa. Rest in this
non-dual awareness.
(12:40 AM) AEN: so
not only zen :P actually theravada also... particularly thai forest tradition,
ajahn chah that side
(1:07 AM) AEN: Hi
Very interesting posts.
I'm just speaking from direct experience about the
awareness, which seems relevant to this debate too.
I would call it "aware nothingness" really, as
it feels empty and without identity.
Yet time and again, it always feels to be the same,
stable and unchanging. And recalling distant memories, it feels the same too.
Perhaps that's why Vedantins describe it so. It spontaineously realises itself
several times a day and it feels like it's always there too. The dimension
within which all experience seems to happen, within which consciousness changes
through the day.
But how can this aware nothingness feel so unchanging if
it is not so? I am open to it being impermanent, but it does not feel like
this.
I'd also be very grateful if someone could simply
describe how Buddha nature is impermanent too.
Many thanks
Metta
Dolphin
(1:07 AM) AEN: ---
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lioncity.net%2Fbuddhism%2Findex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D66843&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Ej8p7v1I7pd2aErHzqciSEQmwYYFIE%2FBdZvtNemig%2BQ%3D&reserved=0
(1:49 AM) AEN: btw
wat is the problem with 'Crystal Clear' which u said last time?
(3:18 AM) AEN: OPRAH
WINFREY (HOST): Well, if I’m not the memories and I’m not the things that
happened
to me and I’m not my story, then who am I?
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): That's
the question. And, in fact, who am I is
actually a question that in some spiritual -- eastern
spiritual teachings is used as a kind of
(3:18 AM) AEN: mantra
or pointer that you repeat to yourself in a meditation setting. So you sit down
and
you ask yourself, who am I? And you're not supposed to
answer that question. You leave the
blank after the question. In that blank, in that empty
space, if it works, if this practice works
as it should, you suddenly get a sense of your own
presence…
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Mm-hmm.
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): …that
has nothing to do with your thought
processes. Your own sense of conscious presence, your
being-ness, your presence, which
part of which is actually also your physical presence,
but it's a sense of aliveness.
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Mm-hmm.
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): Every
cell of the body becomes part of that
sense of presence and aliveness. So, as we state here, we
can (unintelligible) if we can get a
little glimpse of that. A glimpse of our own presence,
which again is nothing to do with
thinking. It is deeper than thinking.
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): How do we get a glimpse of it
sitting here?
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): We get a
glimpse of it. I recommend
(3:19 AM) AEN: I
recommend that see if
you can feel the inner aliveness in your body. As (unintelligible),
is there any sense in which
you can feel that there is an aliveness in every cell of
the body? Now, if people…
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): But isn't my mind thinking that?
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): Your
mind may be thinking, yes, of course, I’m
alive.
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Like in the book you say, feel the
aliveness in your hands. Okay.
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): Yes.
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): When I go to feel the aliveness in
my hand, I can't feel the aliveness
in my hand unless I had a mind in which to feel that.
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): No. So,
if you close your eyes and you hold out
your hand like this…
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Yes, yes.
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): …and
then you -- the question…
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): You feel this -- the vibrating
sensation in your hand.
(3:20 AM) AEN: ...ECKHART
TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): So the moment you enter the inner
aliveness of
the body, you sense – there is a sense of self that is
deeper than thinking. You are that
aliveness that you feel. You are that alive presence. And
so -- and this applies whether your
past or your personal history is a happy one or an
unhappy one. For most people, it's a very
mixed story.
(1:30 PM) Thusness: Dolphin
is not bad but the way u answer must be more careful and precise.
(1:30 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:32 PM) Thusness: I
read his reply.
(1:32 PM) Thusness: need
to explain more.
(1:32 PM) Thusness: He
seems to agree in his latest mail.
(1:33 PM) AEN: icic..
seems to agree with?
(1:33 PM) AEN: im
just starting to read now
(1:36 PM) AEN: hmm
(1:36 PM) AEN: so
how to reply him
(1:37 PM) Thusness: he
said he re-read and more deeply.
"But permanent, as the Advaitins say, the awareness it is not
necesarily so, even though it has the appearance of it in direct human
experience."
(1:38 PM) Thusness: What
he meant by this?
(1:38 PM) Thusness: I
read it as he thinks although it appears permanent in direct human experience,
it is not so.
(1:40 PM) AEN: wat
he means ah
(1:41 PM) AEN: oh
lol u asking the same thing
(1:41 PM) Thusness: what
he said is he begin to understand why it is impermanent.
(1:42 PM) Thusness: only
in appearance it is permanent though in direct human experience it seems to be
permanent.
(1:42 PM) Thusness: I
will tell u how to answer why...going to makan.
(1:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:43 PM) AEN: ok
(1:43 PM) Thusness: for
him, u must answer more carefully.
(1:44 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:44 PM) Thusness: Quote
what i said in the url and link it with views.
The relationship between views and consciousness.
(1:44 PM) Thusness: How
it distort an experience and make it appears permanent.
(1:45 PM) Thusness: Tok
to u after I makan.
(1:45 PM) AEN: ok..
(1:45 PM) AEN: which
url
(1:45 PM) AEN: oh
(1:45 PM) AEN: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fawakeningtoreality.blogspot.com%2F2008%2F02%2Fthusnesss-reply-to-longchen-at.html&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=GV%2BVlTfxXv0pT%2B9Gz6S7%2BLvN4ac7QPN0Ndk3%2F4mYbCY%3D&reserved=0
(1:46 PM) AEN: The
Link Between Non-Duality and Emptiness ?
(1:50 PM) Thusness
has changed his/her status to Idle
(2:37 PM) Thusness: no
(2:38 PM) AEN: oic
which url
(2:38 PM) AEN: u
mean the buddha nature is not I AM
(2:39 PM) Thusness: yes
(2:39 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:42 PM) AEN: u
mean link it with karmic propensities?
(2:43 PM) Thusness: yes
(2:52 PM) Thusness: r
u denying the "I AMness" experience?
(2:54 PM) AEN: u mean
in the post?
(2:54 PM) AEN: no
(2:54 PM) AEN: its
more like the nature of 'i am' rite
(2:54 PM) Thusness: what
is being denied?
(2:54 PM) AEN: the
dualistic understanding?
(2:55 PM) Thusness: yes
it is the wrong understanding of that experience. Just like 'redness' of a flower.
(2:55 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:55 PM) Thusness: Vivid
and seems real and belongs to the flower.
It only appears so, it is not so.
(2:57 PM) Thusness: When
we see in terms of subject/object dichotomy, it appears puzzling that there is
thoughts, no thinker. There is sound, no
hearer and there is rebirth, but no permanent soul being reborn.
(2:58 PM) Thusness: It
is puzzling because of our deeply held view of seeing things inherently where
dualism is a subset of this 'inherent' seeing.
(2:59 PM) Thusness: So
what is the problem?
(2:59 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:59 PM) AEN: the
deeply held views?
(2:59 PM) Thusness: yeah
(2:59 PM) Thusness: what
is the problem?
(3:01 PM) AEN: back
(3:02 PM) Thusness: The
problem is the root cause of suffering lies in this deeply held view. We search and are attached because these
views. This is the relationship between
'view' and 'consciousness'. There is no
escape. With inherent view, there is
always 'I' and 'Mine'. There is always
'belongs' like the 'redness' belongs to the flower.
(3:02 PM) Thusness: Therefore
despite all transcendental experiences, there is no liberation without right
understanding.
(3:02 PM) AEN: oic..
(3:03 PM) AEN: but
that guy said something like the 'I'ness illusion is lost or something
(3:03 PM) AEN: though
he still tinks its permanent and formless
(3:03 PM) Thusness: u
don't have to care what is said lah.
(3:03 PM) AEN: hahaha
(3:03 PM) AEN: ok
(3:08 PM) AEN: he
thinks awareness is the void background of experiences
(3:08 PM) AEN: even
though he does treat it as 'self'
(3:08 PM) Thusness: doesn't
(3:09 PM) AEN: ya
(3:09 PM) Thusness: but
after reading the url, he knows what u meant.
(3:09 PM) AEN: oic..
(3:09 PM) Thusness: The
subtlety of the 'bond' cannot be underestimated.
(3:10 PM) AEN: icic..
Session Start: Wednesday, March 19, 2008
(3:16 PM) AEN: btw
did u msg me after my 'icic', cos my msn crashed
(3:16 PM) Thusness: When
we see in terms of subject/object dichotomy, it appears puzzling that there can
be thoughts without thinker; sound without hearer and there is rebirth, without
permanent soul being reborn. But this is
an experiential fact when we are free from the ‘bond’ of labels and symbols
with bare and naked awareness, we will realized that it is ‘views’ that blind
us from seeing what reality is.
(3:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(3:18 PM) Thusness: What
is the problem?
It is the deeply held ‘inherent’ view that creates all
the searches and attachment. That is as
long as he sees inherently, we will be attached. We will always search and takes things in the
form of ‘I’ and ‘mine’ because this is the nature of dualistic and inherent
thought.
(3:19 PM) Thusness:
What is the problem?
It is the deeply held ‘inherent’ view that creates all
the searches and attachments. That is,
as long as he sees inherently, we will be attached. We will always search and see in the form of
‘I’ and ‘mine’ because this is the nature of dualistic and inherent
thought.
(3:19 PM) Thusness: Better.
:)
(3:20 PM) Thusness: Summarize
and post to him. See whether that helps.
:)
(3:20 PM) AEN: ok..
(3:22 PM) AEN: all
these also hor:
(3:22 PM) AEN:
(2:55 PM) Thusness: Vivid and seems real and belongs to
the flower. It only appears so, it is
not so.
(2:57 PM) Thusness: When we see in terms of
subject/object dichotomy, it appears puzzling that there is thoughts, no
thinker. There is sound, no hearer and
there is rebirth, but no permanent soul being reborn.
(2:58 PM) Thusness: It is puzzling because of our deeply
held view of seeing things inherently where dualism is a subset of this
'inherent' seeing.
(3:23 PM) Thusness: Buddhism
transform the 'permanent' into 'anatta and emptiness' without compromising the
experience. Nothing is lost; But
experientially it becomes most vivid and clear without being 'bonded' by
inherent views.
(3:23 PM) Thusness: u
summarized then show me. Good for u
also.
(3:23 PM) Thusness: I
go rest first. :P
(3:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(3:28 PM) Thusness
has changed his/her status to Idle
(4:13 PM) AEN: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lioncity.net%2Fbuddhism%2Findex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D66843%26st%3D0%26p%3D907822%26%23entry907822&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WUnvK%2B5pVmigqLxEE00pxSLzPXK4aEV1joTd9PTY%2BTI%3D&reserved=0
(4:31 PM) Thusness: wrong
(4:38 PM) AEN: oic
then how
(4:39 PM) Thusness: wait...correcting
(4:39 PM) AEN: ok
(4:55 PM) Thusness: like
i write like that. :P
(4:55 PM) Thusness:
The experience of pristine awareness only appears
permanent, unchanging and independent.
The notion of this vast permanent void background where
phenomena pops in and out leaving this void aware/witnessing background
unchanged, is in fact an illusion. This
is the result of a deeply held view rather than an experientially truth.
(4:55 PM) Thusness: Buddhism
replaces these attributes ' permanence, unchanging and independent ' into
'anatta (no-self) and sunyata (emptiness)' without compromising the experience
of Presence. Nothing is lost; but it becomes most vivid and clear
experientially without being 'bonded' by inherent views. There is no denial of the experience, only
correctly understand the true nature of that experience.
(4:56 PM) Thusness: Like
a red flower that is vividly clear and right in front of an observer, the
‘redness’ only appears to ‘belong’ to the flower, it is in actuality not so.
Vision of red does not arise in all animal species (dogs cannot perceive
colours) nor is the ‘redness’ is an attribute of the mind. If given a 'quantum eyesight' to look into
the atomic structure,
(4:57 PM) Thusness: there
is similarly no attribute ‘redness’ anywhere found, only almost complete
space/void with no perceivable shapes and forms. Whatever Appearances are
dependently arisen, and hence is empty of any inherent existence or fixed
attributes, or 'redness'. Whatever arises is the indivisibility of luminosity
(luminous clarity, awareness) and emptiness (empty of inherent existence).
(4:57 PM) Thusness: The
problem is the root cause of suffering lies in this deeply held view of seeing
things inherently where dualistic view is a subset of it. It may not be obvious but even ‘searching’
and ‘attachments’ are the result of inherent views. This is the subtlety of the relationship
between 'views' and 'consciousness'. With inherent view, there is always 'I',
(4:57 PM) Thusness: 'mine'
and all these 'belongs' like the 'redness' ‘belonging’ to the flower. There is no escape.
(4:57 PM) Thusness: What
is the problem?
Therefore despite all transcendental experiences, there
is no liberation without right understanding. The subtlety of the 'bond' cannot
be underestimated. When we see in terms
of subject/object dichotomy, it appears puzzling that there can be thoughts
without thinker; sound without hearer and there is rebirth, without a permanent
soul being passed on.
(4:57 PM) Thusness: But
this is an experiential fact when we are free from the 'bond' of labels and
symbols. Impermanence yet there is
continuity is only illogical when we attempt to forcefully into a dualistic
framework.
With the strength of bare attention and sustained naked
awareness, we will realize that it is 'views' that blind us from seeing what
reality is.
(4:58 PM) Thusness: That
said, presently I am going through rather similar experiences as you and
recently I get to have a vivid glimpse in term of real experience of what that
is being described in stage 2 of my friend's six stages of experience
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fawakeningtoreality.blogspot.com%2F200...experience.html&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5I7RqwmFbRNxMHLR%2FBxvuHyfFkYM%2BjfxpVrRDYV2JWc%3D&reserved=0. Do take a casual read if you have time. Nothing really intense. Hope that helps!
(5:03 PM) AEN: back
(5:03 PM) AEN: like
i write like that. :P --> hahahaha
(5:04 PM) Thusness: ahha...
(5:04 PM) Thusness: i
send u the file. :P
(5:04 PM) AEN: okie
(5:06 PM) Thusness: Initiated
a file transfer
(5:06 PM) You
have successfully received emptinessExplaination2.doc from Thusness.
(5:08 PM) Thusness: can
still change?
(5:08 PM) AEN: yea
(5:08 PM) AEN: change
which part
(5:09 PM) Thusness: huh?
(5:09 PM) Thusness: i
thought i send u the file?
(5:09 PM) AEN: huh
(5:09 PM) AEN: yea u
sent me
(5:09 PM) AEN: u
want to change something rite
(5:09 PM) Thusness: just
replace it.
(5:09 PM) AEN: ok
replace which part
(5:09 PM) Thusness: all
(5:10 PM) AEN: oh i
tot u still wanted to change further
(5:10 PM) AEN: ORH
(5:10 PM) AEN: haha
u mean the 2 hours
(5:10 PM) AEN: ok
(5:10 PM) AEN: yea
now only 1+ hours past
(5:10 PM) Thusness: Incorherent
(5:12 PM) AEN: updated
(5:12 PM) AEN: huh u
mean the previous one or current one
(5:12 PM) Thusness: the
previous one
(5:12 PM) AEN: icic
(5:12 PM) AEN: a bit
slow still uploading
(5:12 PM) AEN: updated
(5:16 PM) Thusness:
Impermanence yet there is continuity is only illogical when we attempt to
forcefully into a dualistic framework.
(5:16 PM) Thusness: this
line:
(5:16 PM) Thusness:
Impermanence yet there is continuity is only illogical when we attempt to
forcefully our experience into a dualistic framework.
(5:17 PM) Thusness: Amend:
Impermanence yet there is continuity is only illogical when we attempt to
forcefully fit our experience into a dualistic framework.
(5:18 PM) AEN: ok
(5:21 PM) Thusness: Whatever
arises is the indivisibility of luminosity (luminous clarity, awareness) and
emptiness (empty of inherent existence).
(5:21 PM) Thusness: Change
this line to:
(5:21 PM) Thusness: --
merely luminous yet empty.
(5:23 PM) AEN: Whatever
arises is merely luminous yet empty.
(5:23 PM) AEN: ?
(5:24 PM) AEN: Whatever
appearances are dependently arisen, and hence is empty of any inherent
existence or fixed attributes, or “redness”... merely luminous yet empty.
(5:24 PM) AEN: ?
(5:24 PM) Thusness: Whatever
appearances are dependently arisen, and hence is empty of any inherent
existence or fixed attributes, or “redness” --merely luminous yet empty.
(5:24 PM) AEN: ok
(5:28 PM) Thusness: much
more coherent. :P
(5:29 PM) AEN: lol
(5:29 PM) Thusness: also
help u understand better
(5:29 PM) AEN: icic..
(5:29 PM) AEN: ya
Session Start: Wednesday, March 19, 2008
(6:16 PM) AEN: With
sustained attention, coarse contactual sensations gradually gave way to subtle
vibrations of rapid frequency. Persistent concentration on these vibrations
seemed to increase the intensity and field of this experience; awareness of
breathing seemed to have totally dissolved into the ‘sea’ of vibration. In a
sudden and unexpected moment, however, the field of vibrations disappeared,
leaving a pervasive sense of ‘nothingness’ wherein no boundary between the
‘self’ and the environment existed. I had lost all consciousness of bodily
sensations and thoughts, and awareness, which was initially clear and present at
the start of the practice, now became indistinct and blurred. It was a state in
which ‘I’ was not there at all, characterized by the lack rather than presence
of clear awareness. While this may be a glimpse of anatta, albeit an imperfect
and distorted one, it never had the significance and clarity that the second
experience had. --
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.buddhanet.net%2Fanattamed.htm&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Sao7zGYF8WJBKGwtjjFJc600PZ8wpirA52jBAq5V4xo%3D&reserved=0
(6:17 PM) AEN:
This experience occurred, again, during the practice of
conscious breathing. Following a period of focussed attention on the breath, I
started suffusing the whole body with awareness, all the while keeping the
breath at the background of my mind. Awareness was light, open, and pervasive,
giving rise to a deepening sense of joy and ease. Gradually and gently, it
seemed as if the awareness, the breath, and the blissful sensations of the body
merged into one, leaving no solid ‘self’ or ‘experiencer’ behind or within this
flowing experience of clarity and non-thought. It was a profoundly invigorating
‘non-experience’ which left a deep and lasting impression on me. It made me
think of its resemblance to what Thich Nhat Hanh has described as the anatta
experience.
(6:17 PM) AEN:
Another interesting experience that bear a relation to
anatta occurred on a particular occasion when I was at the beach. On this
occasion, the sea breeze was blowing with great strength and its extreme chill
sent shivers down my spine and through my entire frame. I felt myself tensing
up every single muscle I could find in my body. In that moment of need,
awareness arose in my mind and an immediate relaxation of the muscles ensued. I
decided to experiment with how far I could possibly relate to this somewhat unpleasant
experience with clear awareness. Gradually I was able to let go of my
resistance to the wind and to allow my body to experience the strong sensations
as they are, without interference. It was as if the wind was allowed to sweep
across and into my body even as I stood there open, aware, and vulnerable. As I
stayed with it for some time, the separation between the wind and myself seemed
to vanish, and in a brief but unforgettable moment, I was the wind. The ‘self’
had merged into the wind, as it were, and my sense of a separate ego had been
forgotten.
(6:17 PM) AEN: wat u
tink
(6:18 PM) AEN: btw
last time u said crystal clear not tat good.. how come
(6:18 PM) AEN: as in
the book
(6:18 PM) AEN: the
other one, not clarifying the natural state
(6:23 PM) Thusness
has changed his/her status to Online
(6:26 PM) Thusness: so
so only
(6:26 PM) Thusness: forgotten...
(6:27 PM) AEN: oic
(6:28 PM) AEN: the
experience above is like anatta?
(6:28 PM) Thusness: but
the one u have seem quite good. :)
(6:28 PM) Thusness: no
(6:28 PM) Thusness: the
experience is not anatta. :P
(6:28 PM) AEN: lol
(6:28 PM) AEN: icic
(6:28 PM) Thusness: it
is non-dual
(6:28 PM) Thusness: but
there is no insight of anatta.
(6:28 PM) Thusness: anatta
is an insight.
(6:29 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:29 PM) Thusness: an
intuitive insight into the nature of reality.
(6:29 PM) Thusness: there
is always no-self.
(6:29 PM) AEN: so
his experience is like stage 2?
(6:29 PM) AEN: icic
(6:29 PM) Thusness: as
for the experience, it is just the degree of non-dual.
(6:29 PM) AEN: oic
(6:30 PM) Thusness: in
order to have the peak of experience of anatta, even with insight, the depth
and degree of experience depends on 'sheh'.
(6:31 PM) Thusness: like
for me, the degree of experience is definitely not equal to a monk that has
realised anatta with the same depth of insight.
(6:31 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:31 PM) AEN: ya
the book says
(6:31 PM) AEN: i
mean clarifying the natural state says,
(6:34 PM) AEN: hmm it
says there are those who quickly have the insight into the 4 yogas but theres
no stability and said "if his period of practice during this life is but a
short while, it is taught that he will have true realization in the bardo"
(6:35 PM) Thusness: ic.
(6:35 PM) Thusness: good
book.
(6:36 PM) Thusness: But
still need to read through.
(6:36 PM) Thusness: sometimes
just a few pages.
(6:36 PM) Thusness: LOOL
(6:36 PM) AEN: lol
(6:41 PM) AEN: it
says in the beginning of nonmeditation "During the ensuing perceptions,
there is a remnant of ignorance called "thoughtless nonrecognition",
which is the all-ground consciousness remaining as a thoughtless state of
indifference. This is also known as the "defilement of negative
tendencies".
(6:41 PM) Thusness
has changed his/her status to Idle
(6:42 PM) AEN: Although
you do not create karma, it is taught that clinging, not yet dissolved into
original wakefulness, still occurs like fugitive moments of magical illusion.
During dreams you still encounter a slight clinging to them as being real due
to not recognizing.
(6:42 PM) Thusness
has changed his/her status to Online
(6:42 PM) AEN: wat
is thoughtless nonrecognition
(6:43 PM) Thusness: in
dreams or in real life. :)
(6:43 PM) Thusness: both
will.
(6:43 PM) AEN: icic..
so wats tat about
(6:44 PM) AEN: "At
the time of medium Nonmeditation, even this most subtle dualistic perception,
which is like a magical illusion, dissolves and you become uninterrupted in the
state of nonmeditation throughout day and night.
(6:45 PM) AEN: "During
the ensuing perceptions, the extremely subtle trait of thoughtless
nonrecognition dawns as a natural awareness. This is called "perfection in
accordance with the intrinsic nature". It is taught that this trait is the
subtlest defilement of negative tendencies and that it is still present at
night.
(6:46 PM) Thusness: i
m not there yet
(6:46 PM) AEN: "At
the time of greater Nonmeditation, this extremely subtle trait of thoughtless
nonrecognition dissolves into original wakefulness so that the mother and child
luminosities intermigle. Everything is not the all-encompassing expanse of
original wakefulness so that -- for the benefit of yourself -- you attain
dharmakaya in completeness. Since its natural expression is mastered, free from
any partiality, it is taught that the reflections of the form-bodies for the
benefit of others will spontaneously fulfill the welfare of beings for as long
as samsara lasts.
(6:46 PM) AEN: oic
(6:46 PM) AEN: but
wat is thoughtless nonrecognition about'
(6:47 PM) Thusness: Presence
(6:47 PM) AEN: but
its a form of ignorance?
(6:48 PM) Thusness: i
got to read about it first
(6:48 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:48 PM) Thusness: The
book seems a good practitioner's guide.
(6:48 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:49 PM) Thusness: Who
is able to have these experience?
(6:49 PM) Thusness: I
mean who is the originator?
(6:50 PM) AEN: Dakpo
Tashi Namgyal, a 16th century master
(6:55 PM) Thusness
has changed his/her status to Idle
(7:07 PM) AEN:
Everything is not the all-encompassing expanse of original wakefulness -- sorry, i mean 'now the'
(7:08 PM) Thusness: yes
(7:08 PM) Thusness: but
this realisation is not a dualistic sort of realisation.
(7:08 PM) AEN: wat u
mean
(7:08 PM) Thusness: as
I am the tree.
(7:08 PM) Thusness: :P
(7:08 PM) AEN: oic
haha
(7:08 PM) Thusness: or
I am you.
(7:09 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:09 PM) Thusness: all
remains as it is, still the same as before.
(7:09 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:09 PM) Thusness: universe
is not a dualistic universe.
(7:09 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:10 PM) Thusness: it
is just a form of realisation.
(7:10 PM) Thusness: what
is important is the actual experience.
(7:10 PM) Thusness: the
liberating experience due to our no-self and empty nature.
(7:10 PM) AEN: oic..
Session Start: Thursday, March 20, 2008
(1:45 AM) AEN: Xabir
The stage 2 he describes is referred to as "I am
everything". so I do not follow when you say you experience this when I
know you don't really believe in your "I" ness anymore.
I used to have this experience / sense of I am
everything, when I used to believe in my "I" and see it as
everything.
Now, as we've been discussing, it's just an aware
nothingness which comes later it seems.
Metta
Dolphin
(1:45 AM) AEN: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lioncity.net%2Fbuddhism%2Findex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D66843&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Ej8p7v1I7pd2aErHzqciSEQmwYYFIE%2FBdZvtNemig%2BQ%3D&reserved=0
(1:47 AM) AEN: lol
(1:22 PM) AEN: hi so
how to reply
(2:54 PM) AEN: hi u
there?
(6:01 PM) Thusness: u
don't know how to reply eh?
(7:24 PM) AEN: back
(7:25 PM) Thusness: How
come u like to say what i say in the forum hah
(7:25 PM) Thusness: kok
ur head!
(7:25 PM) AEN: lol
(7:25 PM) Thusness: Just
put in ur own words what is the danger can liao.
(7:25 PM) Thusness: don't
say i say.
(7:25 PM) Thusness: as
if i know everything
(7:25 PM) Thusness: this
is no good.
(7:26 PM) Thusness: it
gives ppl wrong impression.
(7:26 PM) AEN: oic..
haha
(7:26 PM) Thusness: Just
say what u think.
(7:26 PM) Thusness: Very
often when we seek spiritual power, we start with a very wrong mindset.
(7:27 PM) Thusness: whatever...:P
(7:27 PM) Thusness: don't
have to quote me even for this.
(7:27 PM) AEN: lol
(7:27 PM) AEN: ok..
(7:28 PM) Thusness: because
that is told by all teachers too.
(7:28 PM) Thusness: what
is important is normally we are dealing with consciousness.
(7:28 PM) Thusness: we
are unable to deal with the propensities of consciousness.
(7:28 PM) Thusness: we
cannot over estimate ourselves.
(7:28 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:29 PM) Thusness: What
is dolphin asking?
(7:29 PM) AEN: he's
asking like why if i dun believe in 'self' then i experience stage 2
(7:30 PM) Thusness: no
(7:31 PM) Thusness: what
is he saying really?
(7:37 PM) AEN: back
(7:38 PM) AEN: not
so sure
(7:38 PM) Thusness: U
must be able to communicate humbly to him.
(7:42 PM) AEN: icic
(7:42 PM) AEN: so
wats he saying?
(7:44 PM) Thusness
has changed his/her status to Idle
(7:44 PM) Thusness
has changed his/her status to Online
(7:45 PM) Thusness: What
is the most important factor of stage 1 and 2?
(7:45 PM) AEN: dunnu
(7:45 PM) AEN: intense
luminosity?
(7:45 PM) Thusness: ai...
(7:45 PM) AEN: Self?
(7:46 PM) Thusness: The
post that u wrote.
(7:46 PM) Thusness: that
is ur experience.
(7:46 PM) Thusness: it
is non-dual.
(7:46 PM) Thusness: but
insight hasn't arisen.
(7:46 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:46 PM) Thusness: but
what did i tell u?
(7:47 PM) AEN: practice
dropping?
(7:47 PM) AEN: duration
must be prolonged?
(7:47 PM) Thusness: what
else?
(7:48 PM) AEN: summarise
anatta?
(7:48 PM) Thusness: no
no
(7:48 PM) Thusness: r
u in stage 1 and 2?
(7:48 PM) AEN: oh u
mean "the downside is it also denies you from experiencing that deep and
utimate conviction, that certainty beyond doubt of your very own existence --
"I AM'."
(7:48 PM) AEN: eh
brb
(7:48 PM) Thusness: yes
(7:49 PM) AEN: back
(7:49 PM) AEN: icic
(7:49 PM) Thusness: The
drop of personality is just part of non-dual.
(7:50 PM) Thusness: i
mean non-dual experience but the insight that leads to natural abiding of
non-dual experience requires that awakening of insight.
(7:50 PM) Thusness: Therefore
u do not consider urself to be in stage 4.
(7:51 PM) Thusness: Furthermore
what you were told in one of ur post is that there are 2 important factors that
you have to be aware:
(7:51 PM) Thusness: Those
that i wrote.
(7:52 PM) Thusness: Then
tell him that what u have written are summaries over the years of conversation
with me. It is not necessarily ur
experiences.
(7:53 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:57 PM) Thusness
has changed his/her status to Idle
(8:07 PM) AEN: Furthermore
what you were told in one of ur post is that there are 2 important factors that
you have to be aware:
(8:08 PM) AEN: Although
the 'teaching of anatta' helps to prevent you from landing into wrong views,
the downside is it also denies you from experiencing that deep and utimate
conviction, that certainty beyond doubt of your very own existence -- "I
AM'. This is a very important factor for
Advaita practitioners.
The next important factor is the duration of this
non-dual experience must be prolonged; long enough for you to enter into a sort
of absorption that the experience becomes 'oceanic'.
(8:08 PM) AEN: this?
(8:11 PM) Thusness
has changed his/her status to Online
(8:11 PM) Thusness: yes
(8:11 PM) Thusness: finished
makan
(8:11 PM) AEN: icic
ok
(8:12 PM) Thusness: with
practice the experience of non-duality can be sustained normally through
sufficient elimination of 'self'.
(8:13 PM) Thusness: but
the sense of permanence, independence and unchangingness remain.
(8:13 PM) AEN: posted
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lioncity.net%2Fbuddhism%2Findex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D66843%26st%3D0%26p%3D908657%26%23entry908657&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=K4qqZbGzRXlfXiEFhqnZG1I6XVHlQzPo6QvANd9n5FE%3D&reserved=0
(8:14 PM) Thusness: This
resulted in distancing itself from the transients which is in essence Awareness
itself. There is nothing to distant.
(8:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:14 PM) Thusness: There
is a poem I wrote in the awakeningfromdreams forum.
(8:14 PM) Thusness: to
awakening.
(8:15 PM) AEN: leo's
forum?
(8:17 PM) Thusness: yes
(8:20 PM) AEN: oic
(8:20 PM) AEN: which
poem
(8:20 PM) AEN: btw
my post ok?
(8:21 PM) Thusness: haven't
read yet
(8:21 PM) Thusness: there
is no this that is more 'this' than 'that'
(8:21 PM) Thusness: this
poem.
(8:21 PM) AEN: oic
(8:25 PM) Thusness: There
is no this that is more this than that.
Although thought arises and ceases vividly,
Every arising and ceasing remains as entire as it can be.
The emptiness nature that is ever manifesting presently
Has not in anyway denied its own luminosity.
Although non-dual is seen with clarity,
The urge to remain can still blind subtly.
Like a passerby that passes, is gone completely.
Die utterly
(8:25 PM) Thusness: And
bear witness of this pure presence, its non-locality.
(8:26 PM) Thusness: This
is suitable for him for he think Awareness is 'special' and 'ultimate' and
different from the transient mind.
(8:26 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:26 PM) AEN: i
paste this ?
(8:26 PM) Thusness: Summarized
a bit lah
(8:27 PM) AEN: oh..
but its quite short mah :P
(8:27 PM) AEN: u
mean in non-poem form?
(8:27 PM) AEN: as in
write in normal text
(8:28 PM) Thusness: poem
(8:29 PM) Thusness: but
u must bring out the point that Awareness is not any 'special' and 'ultimate'
and different from the transient mind.
(8:31 PM) AEN: dolphin:
Xabir
I think we can agree to differ on the content of the
stages and each others tastes of them, but that's OK too.
To clarify all this for my simple mind, I generally try
to restrict my comments to what I directly experience where possible. That way
I hope to stay focussed on where things are really at and avoid
intellectualising all this or just asserting theories. So I have little more to
say now! Thanks for the dialogue. smile.gif
Metta
Dolphin
(8:33 PM) AEN: ?
(8:33 PM) Thusness: Just
say ur sentiment too.
(8:33 PM) Thusness: what
else u want to say
(8:34 PM) Thusness: u
can convey to him about not seeing 'awareness' as anymore 'special' than the transient mind.
(8:34 PM) AEN: ok
(8:34 PM) AEN: wat
about the poem
(8:35 PM) Thusness: can
(8:35 PM) AEN: ok
just post it directly?
(8:35 PM) Thusness: yeah
(8:36 PM) Thusness: but
remember to say "Awareness" is not anymore 'special' than the
transient mind.
(8:36 PM) AEN: ok
(8:49 PM) Thusness: wah...u
write so long?
(8:49 PM) AEN: no
not yet.. lol
(8:50 PM) AEN: just
now answering call
(8:53 PM) Thusness:
The arising and ceasing is called the Transience,
Is self luminous and self perfected from beginning.
However due the karmic propensity that divides,
The mind separates the ‘brilliance’ from the ever arising
and ceasing.
This karmic illusion constructs ‘the brilliance’,
Into an object that is permanent and unchanging.
The ‘unchanging’ appears unimaginably real,
(8:54 PM) Thusness: Only
exists in subtle thinking and recalling.
In essence the luminosity is itself empty,
Is already unborn, unconditioned and ever pervading.
Therefore fear not the arising and ceasing.
(8:54 PM) Thusness: This
one also okie.
(8:54 PM) AEN: icic..
okie
(8:57 PM) AEN: ok
posted
(9:02 PM) Thusness: Good
answer wrong timing. :)
(9:02 PM) Thusness: Yuan
jing!
(9:02 PM) AEN: y
wrong timing
(9:04 PM) AEN: how
come wrong timing?
(9:04 PM) Thusness: my
opinion only. :)
(9:04 PM) AEN: oic
but he will still read rite :P
(9:04 PM) AEN: how
come wrong timing
(9:05 PM) Thusness: Think
so.
(9:05 PM) Thusness: :)
(9:05 PM) AEN: icic
(9:15 PM) Thusness
has changed his/her status to Idle
(9:22 PM) Thusness
has changed his/her status to Online
(9:22 PM) Thusness: The
share market is dropping like no tomorrow.
(9:22 PM) Thusness: :P
(9:23 PM) AEN: lol
(9:23 PM) Thusness: quite
scary.
(9:23 PM) AEN: u
sold ur shares?
