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Those who got inclined towards spirituality in rather young age. What impact did it have on your past goals and aspirations?
Chasing has dropped significantly for me. There is not much I'd really prefer over simple and mundane things. Not to say that I have a contempt for materialistic gains but I won't chase for them with the same intensity as I would have earlier. This great inertia I had before is vanished, and being quite young, I feel it will have a very strong impact on
how my life (concerned with worldly matters) will unfold. Would love to know people's experience and thoughts on this.
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
Top contributor
I wasn’t particularly ambitious to begin with, so no, not much change.
John Tan on the other hand is very successful
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
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And as Thrangu Rinpoche said:
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
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May be an illustration of text that says '10:09 Chrome AA An ntroduction Mahamudra Meditation Another number mahasiddhas Nagarjuna eacher ndia 44 schonr exposition the wakening. neir practice example attained Wi grinding this Mahamudra meditation ttamed realization some India, vere regardless effective meditation practice hat recommended situation. Buddhism, are protound, and imply urmi austerity which would otherwise mental disturbance physical'
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Yin LingAdmin
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How old are you?
I’m not young 🤣
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Radiant AnattaAuthor
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Yin Ling 22
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Mr. KM
Radiant Anatta I hope this doesn’t offend you. Because we’ve been talking privately and I don’t really know much about you so I don’t have a mental image, but omg you are young 🤣 i feel like an aunt now. I never felt that before.
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Radiant AnattaAuthor
Top contributor
Mr. KM 🤣🤣🤣
Don't worry you are the cool guitarist aunty
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Mr. KM
Radiant Anatta I’ll take that 🤣
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Mr. MPTop contributor
I definitely developed a very ascetic and anti-materialistic attitude for a while that I ended up having to work a lot on later. I got interested in awakening as a teenager in the mid 90s and sat with a handful of teachers. I kind of saw myself as a renunciate and was even a bit homeless for a while (sleeping on beach/couch surfing), but had a bit of a rude awakening as I ended up having to figure out how to survive...
As I focused more on that material side, spirituality partially faded from my life and it wasn't until I I was 32 that I had an awakening, seemingly out of nowhere. I was glad to have learned about it earlier in life because it could have been very disorienting...
But the anti-materialistic thing has been something I've had to really work through over the years. My guess is that it goes back more than this life....
My wife is a bit more on the ambitious side so that has been a real blessing to balance out my tendencies - she helps keep me moving. Also having kids kicks you into to gear when it's not just you...
Certainly it's all perfect though!
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Mr. MPTop contributor
I think it's maybe worth mentioning too that here in the US (and probably 'The West' at large), eastern forms of spirituality are a relatively new import.
Up until very recently, Buddhism, Hinduism, and other paths that teach of awakening, were largely associated with and embraced by 'The Counterculture'.
So there has been a strong tendency to try and go outside of society. Also, much of the imported spirituality has been taught by monastics, so there has been less of a model of enlightened householders, so to speak. This is finally changing, thankfully, but the tendencies run deep and many of us have had to learn the hard way.
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
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Unless one decides to become a monk/nun and join a monastic sangha which is supported by a group of lay community, it is important to have a career, job and savings. See Tsoknyi Rinpoche's advise below.
Career Advise (Part 2)
Also see: Career Advise
Yin Ling
Got some messages recently asking me whether they should quit their job to meditate full time
As in a video I have been said doing so..
Just to clarify, I didn’t plan to do so and for me it was just a coincidental arrangements.
I would encourage and strongly recommend everyone to have a strong skill in the world, finish Your degree, then choose a good and less stressful job, and have a backup plan always ..
If you are a new doctor, Do finish your required house job or service no matter how shitty it is and get a full registration no matter where U are.
House job is shitty, that is the law of the universe. No choice.
Then you can choose a more comfortable career. GP or sthg.
Don’t quit before your full Registration.
The world now is complex. Without full Reg you are not a doctor and your med school degree doesn’t function.
If you are a student, please study hard and finish your course.
Meditate on the side.
Or take a gap year once it’s ok to do so.
If you wake up, you wake up to your life
You don’t want it to be shitty ok
You want to have earning power 😂😝
I am a v rational person ok and that’s my opinion 😁
Unless your family is very rich then ignore all the above 😝
80 Comments
John Tan
Just last sentence I don't agree. Even if ur family is ultra rich, it is still important. Lol.
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Yin Ling
John Tan
Lol that one different level I cannot comment 😝
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John Tan
Yin Ling part of my job is to deal with the very rich so probably a bad habit to always nag abt their behaviour. 🤦 But don't want to talk about business, taking a breather now.
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Angelo Grr
John Tan ESPECIALLY if your family wealthy, important to challenge oneself independent of fortuitous conditions 😂
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John Tan
Angelo Grr well said! 👍
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Yin Ling
John Tan
Lol …
See more
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
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William Lim
Start a GoFundMe page 🙂
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John Tan
William Lim 🤦
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Yin Ling
William Lim who will give lah
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John Tan
But I think the op is a good one. This question probably has surfaced in the mind of many practitioners, me included.😝
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Yin Ling
John Tan
Yea someone asked me whether they should quit Singapore housemanship or not today, I feel worried for their future so advise against.
Doing housemanship will make one rather want to become monk😂🫣
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John Tan
Yin Ling imo that is appropriate and measured advice. A balance of worldly wisdom and transcendental wisdom is needed.
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Yin Ling
John Tan glad you agree
It is hard. Bec the job is very very hard esp Singapore. Ppl work too hard there. 30 hours shifts still happening .
And the gov don’t give full registration easily to Keep doctors in service 🤦🏻♀️
So ppl suffer. And they want to find a way out.
I remember when I suffer a lot those times I dissociated to wide open awareness 😂🤦🏻♀️
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John Tan
Yin Ling yes. It is hard and u have to shadow under a doctor for few years in sg even u r fully registered doctor in other countries. I must say that the medical organisation here has a lot of control over the number supply of doctors.
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Yin Ling
John Tan
I heard of this when I was thinking of going there to earn sing dollar. Hehe.
Then i thought i cannot work with Singaporeans😝it will make me look lazy.
I went to Britain instead. They make me look hardworking 👀😂
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John Tan
Yin Ling actually not that hard if u r working for private unless u setup ur own clinic as an entrepreneur then that is a different story.
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Yin Ling
John Tan
Yea. Singapore only recognise 2 uni in Malaysia or sthg and even if I already have post grad certification they don’t care lol 🥹
so I need to retake exams and retrain in the service for years before being recognised. Then come out to private. Take too long.
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John Tan
Yin Ling yes I understand.
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Angelo Grr
John Tan me as well. Wanted to join a monetary or go live in a cave several times, but some instinct kept me engaged in conventional life.
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
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John Tan
Angelo Grr yes I understand. Several times infact even when I was quite young. During anatta it was strong. When the background self is gone, mind wants to feel itself so much -- the sand of the beach, the smell of the rain, the colors of flowers...Worldly definitions really don't matter anymore and a feeling of no time to waste on such trival persue. But now secluded or worldly doesn't matter any longer, everywhere is practice.
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Yin Ling
Angelo Grr
Me too😂 family and friends were worried I ordain For some usual Asian ppl reasons
Only the ordination process for nuns/female is very complex and strive with drama here
I don’t like drama and I realise this could waste more time compare to if I just live normally and practise as I could.
So now just arrange career to be as less life consuming as possible
But I can’t do nights like u Angelo 😂👀
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Yin Ling
John Tan
Interesting. I have always been curious of how you are able to run worldly businesses with your powerful insights
For me at one point the ability to push hard for business to flourish drop so much that I know I’m not gonna do well if I stay long in this. The values also change so much.
The wish for wanting to expand and push for more revenue is gone, just want to stay stagnant 😂thank god business partner still retain normal business principles
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Angelo Grr
John Tan I agree ☝🏼
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John Tan
Yin Ling yes setting clear business principles help to eliminate lots of inner conflicts. Very often it involves a lot of practice on non-attachments and refinement of our understanding on what anatta, non-action and essencelessness mean as greed, angry and unwholesome thoughts are more obvious when meeting such situations. I learn to see and associate insights to business challenges over time. Many of my partners r at the age of 75+ and filthy rich, knowing their life styles and actual needs help me also. Seeing entrepreneurs grow in the right direct is also a joy. It is all abt how every situation triggers and refine depth of our insights if we have practice in mind.
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Yin Ling
John Tan
Thanks! Very enlightening. Ur experience of insights in business is actually very very rare
These things nobody can teach us
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John Tan
Yin Ling no lah 😑. Business is actually extremely dynamic esp during crisis, u need essencelessness 🤪....🤦
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
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Ng Xin Zhao
Yin Ling Thus, good reason not to marry, and renounce. Renounce young can have easier time to adjust, learn, adapt, accept, practice.
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Yin Ling
Ng Xin Zhao
It is truly a blessing if one have the right conditions to renounce and practise fully the path .. that is good karma fruition from good deeds prev lives
But remember the world runs on dependent origination and conditions
What is suitable for one person might not suit another one. And sometimes it is not their will, coz it is no self
If the person condition is for ordination, they really can’t run away from that appearance lol
If not practise in lay life
I wouldn’t prescribe a certain condition or prerequisite for someone to practise
They might have ordain more times than us past lives 😉
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Mr./Ms. VWC
Ng Xin Zhao not exactly dohhhj monastic life isn't for eveveryone ... I've tried it and realised It's not for me ..... that y I said do homework first b4 entering that life.
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Yin Ling
Mr./Ms. VWC 👍🏻
U r practising well in lay life. Just keep going 😁
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Mr. J.P. H
I don't know. I am a software engineer now. There is an idea that it might be nice to bake bread for a living. Much better service.
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Yin Ling
Mr. J.P. H I think as long as you have a skill for living that’s fine. 🙂
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Tan Jui Horng
Mr. J.P. H You can always consider doing volunteer work to cover the service part.
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Mr. RDT
Vimalakirti is a wonderful and great role model for lay Mahayana Buddhists I think. A realised high level bodhisattva with deep insight, vast merit and fully integrated into society, leading virtuous and productive life aimed at the wellfare of others.
I highly reccomend his sutra to those that struggle with the dillema of staying in society and being a practitioner at the same time too. Not only that but it contains some great pointers and teachings on emptiness and also challenges patriarchal, male-centric view of spirituality (in a dialogue between a male arhat and female goddess).
Ofc if you really want to become a monk, then do so.
https://www2.kenyon.edu/.../Adler/Reln260/Vimalakirti.htm
WWW2.KENYON.EDU
VIMALAKIRTI NIRDESA SUTRA
VIMALAKIRTI NIRDESA SUTRA
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Yin Ling
Mr. RDT thank you!
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Sim Pern Chong
Thanks for the sharing.
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Yin Ling
Sim Pern Chong u r very kind. This is just my very superficial opinion from not much years of experience.
I would love you hear yours if u have any 🙂
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Sim Pern Chong
Agree much. Thanks.
I have not have a full time career since 2008 😁
For me, I used to work as a full time designer and then later become a full time lecturer (at a particular Polytechnic). Both type of work, take up large amount of time. I was at AM and then initial non-dual understanding stage when having full time job. Then, partly due to excessive work and becoming pawns to power plays, i decided to quit the full time lecturing job and take on part time assignments. This gives me a lot more time and within a few months of quitting, I have the first definitive no-self insight. That was in 2008.
I guess, it is important to put aside time for these kind of practices. From 2008 onwards, i hold no full time job till now. It does take some courage especially if got kid/s and family to take care. So far, i managed. But my take is that one will need to have a specialised skill that is required somewhere. You got to decide what you want. For me, i cannot achieve the best of both world. Something got to go.
I teach part-time in the design schools and uni and also support the industry in terms of my speciality. Currently, the official amount of hours that i work is approx 12hrs a week. This gives me good amt of time. But, it is not without occasional financial stress. If you got a spouse, the stress is most probably stemming from the insecurity from him/her.
BTW, the last sentence not true for me. I got a rich and quite well known Father, but i am not benefiting financially from that fact. 😆 It may sound superstitious, but to me, the amount one will earn is more or less established (karmically). .. can check from the BAZI 🤣
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John Tan
Sim Pern Chong lol. Maybe should look at ur BAZI. Joking.😝
WWW2.KENYON.EDU
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Whats Good
I am 22 years old and I have been on this path since I was 19. I am still working on locking in that first Awakening, I’ve had glimpses but no permanent shift in identity. I too prefer a very simple life and am not very ambitious. I just graduated from college and got a job so I’m doing alright in the “real world” as my parents say. I don’t have any big plans or long-term goals on how I am going to build up my net worth or be successful or anything like that. Instead, I just attend to whatever is arising in my current experience and go with that. I do spend a lot of my free time alone doing silent sitting and working with Koans. With that said, I do still have hobbies I enjoy such as driving fast cars, poker, golf, tennis, occasional psychedelic trips with my friends etc. So yes, I also lack ambition/personal will and live a very simple life. But I still do enjoy interacting with the world and my friends/family. Hope this helps 🙂.
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
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John Tan
Sim Pern Chong lol. Maybe should look at ur BAZI. Joking.😝
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Yin Ling
Sim Pern Chong
Thanks for sharing!
“Something has to go” part is true.
Cannot want everything.
I am also trying to rearrange my life.
I have options to either
Continue my previous training to be a uk hospital consultant in 3 years, coz I already finish all the exams required so need to do the required time ..
Or start from beginning and train as a GP 😂 which means I work with ppl ten years my junior
And 50% pay cut 🤦🏻♀️
Not something normal ppl will do haha. Totally understand u.
I no need to look at my bazi also know my max earnings alr🤣
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Yin Ling
John Tan
Ya ur right.
The GP in uk is under nhs hehe
in the uk, hosp consultant and GP earn almost the same about 5k pounds a month plus plus and their tax system limits what one could earn. So they don’t want to work more than they need to, the tax goes too high.
GP doesn’t work out of hours and weekends and only do 3.5 days a week.. if they work out of hours they get paid very well lol
Also bec uk is a consultant based system- as in all patients in hospital will be assigned to a consultant , the hosp consultant bear all the risk, medico legal and health wise. The workload in hosp is huge. And now that the nhs is getting worse and worse with their lack of funding, covid etc , a lot of consultants need to step down, come during weekends and nights to help. They work harder than me most of the time and all of them are so stressed out lol, not a good scene.
It’s the other way around in msia Singapore, the higher you go the more relax coz the juniors do all the work, uk is inverse
Most GP in uk can send patients to hosptial too if they think they need secondary care, and they do that very easily unlike here and Singapore, the stress is not as high as ppl in hosptial though we get paid the same😂
Gp has differnt challenge I am not too familiar yet but their work life balance is better. With the less hours, one could locum and the rate of locum in uk is great, almost 100 pounds an hour.
So one can choose to do part time and locum to make ends meet. Part time just work 1-2 days.
Flexibility is high. Hosptial no flexibility coz you run clinics and wards cannot simple cancel cancel
Hence my decision .. 🙂
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John Tan
Yin Ling ic thks. Sg locum is abt sgd 100/hr also.
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Yin Ling
John Tan wow nice . For GP? That is a lot
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John Tan
Yin Ling yes some experienced GP even higher.
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Soh Wei Yu
Yin Ling
You are going uk to work as gp?
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Yin Ling
John Tan 🤦🏻♀️should have become a gp and work in Singapore.
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Yin Ling
Soh Wei Yu yeah I got offer a training place to become one for the glorious nhs 😂
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Tan Jui Horng
Just some thoughts, since I have had a few career changes for the past few years:
1. If already possessing responsibilities, don’t make the life of people who are dependent on you potentially worse off (hopefully not terrible) without their consent.
2. Live below your means. Wants *should* decrease anyway. Growing material ambition while pursuing spiritual progress indicates something wrong with your practice.
3. Being able to say no to some of your job scope is great, especially if you are sometimes required to do things that are ethically/morally grey (“we’re not lying, we’re just not giving full information upfront”). A bit tricky since this ability to say no without too much consequence generally happens only after you become senior staff though. High dependent on the industry as well, I think.
4. Use the spare money from your job to get some form of passive income so that quitting/getting fired is always an available option, should things at the workplace go south.
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
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And here comes the Tsoknyi Rinpoche advise:
Soh Wei Yu
“STUDENT: How do we know the difference between a rigpa likeness and the true rigpa?
RINPOCHE: Through experiencing the authentic rigpa. Imagine that you are someone who has never seen an apple in your whole life, although you’ve been told about it. People have made drawings of apples and explained to you what they look like, their round shape, how thin the skin is, and what it tastes like — it’s sweet and juicy and so forth. But you haven’t seen one or tasted one yet. Then one day you see a display of fruit that includes some apples, and you look at it and think, “Hmm, this looks like the apple that they’ve talked about.” You take it and you put it in your mouth, you bite and you taste and swallow. You think, “Yes, this is exactly what they told me about. Now I know.”
It’s like that. If someone then says, “This is an apple” and points to an orange, you won’t believe them, because you’ve tasted the real thing. In the same way, first we hear about rigpa, then we think about it, and then we meditate. At some point we experience with certainty how it really is. There is no other way to do this. One way of understanding it is conceptual; the other is free of concepts. If you haven’t tasted the absence of concepts, you can hear about or understand what it’s like, but you still haven’t experienced the real thing. First we need to recognize and resolve on one point. With the resolution, one feels really sure.
Right now you’re hearing a lot of talk about the qualities and characteristics of rigpa. But when it becomes part of your own experience, you know. For that to happen, you need to train day and night, like Milarepa, to the point where your buttocks become callused from sitting so much. Train further and further until realization dawns within your stream of being.
Nowadays you don’t have to sit on bare rock like Milarepa — it’s really all right to sit on a comfortable seat. Likewise, you no longer have to make your own food — you can hire a servant to cook for you. But you need to save up some money first, when you are young. If you want to do good practice, you need a yogi credit card! In the past you could beg and people would support religious practitioners,
but nowadays it’s not so easy. In the past people were happy with simple food; nowadays they need rich food. And when you go to a big shopping center, there are so many things. There is a lot of stuff we don’t even know about, and we have to decide what to pick. We don’t buy just one or two things; we need to be completely stocked up with a lot of items. That all takes money.
First you need to accumulate some wealth when you are young. When you have the money, you can practice Dharma. I’m not joking! Honestly, without money we can’t really practice, because there is no time, we have to go to work everyday. Of course, if you get a good sponsor, it is better. We need to be a little intelligent about how we use our life. It’s not a good idea to totally occupy ourselves with Dharma, and find that after a while we haven’t gotten anywhere with spiritual practice, and we don’t have any career either. We need to be skillful and think ahead. Otherwise, when we are fifty or so, we start to panic. “I have no money, what should I do now? I’m getting old, and I must practice, I must meditate. But I’ve no money.” Think well about this while you are young. It’s good to practice, of course, but we need to think from both sides. Dharma doesn’t only mean religion, it means something that you can depend on, something that can help you throughout your entire life. So, work to improve your life — not merely this life but throughout the future as well. When we say ‘life,’ it doesn’t just mean being alive in this body, but rather the continuation of mind which moves from incarnation to incarnation. That is what life really is.
In Tibet, although there were four schools of Buddhism, they didn’t use the word ‘religion.’ That was applied only after Tibetans came down to Nepal and India. Instead, they used a word for the ‘way of Dharma,’ chölug, which carries the sense of what is real, what is true, what is genuine, what is ultimately beneficial, both now and in the long run. The meaning is more referring to something that is in tune with how things really are, something that is helpful, that can improve us. So chölug means ‘spiritual way of life’ — not a confused or deluded life, but a way of being genuine and true. That is what we train ourselves in. We should be without any confusion about how we approach this, how we involve ourselves in spirituality, for this entire life.
In any case, be happy. Don’t entertain a lot of pointless worries, repeating the same words over and over again in your mind. Alot of our thoughts are repetitions, 30 or 35 times the same thought. And we play and replay the same ten themes: one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Then we start all over again, thinking about the same ten things again. It doesn’t actually help that much, does it? If you could have something different to worry about — say, the eleventh, twelfth and thirteenth things — it would be a little more interesting! But if it’s the same ten things over and over again, it’s just habit. We are caught up in the same habits, the same re-making of karma, the same way of deluding ourselves. All this makes our
minds the opposite of open. Don’t be like that. Be clever about yourself. Smile, and continue practicing. You don’t have to show your teeth while smiling; smile from within, with a nice radiance.
Right now we have very a good opportunity. Even though it may seem a little crowded and stuffy in this room, there is a reason for why we sit down together and practice. Yes, it can be boring, but sitting down and being bored can also be quite a good foundation for progress.”
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from https://www.amazon.com/Carefree-Dignity.../dp/9627341320
Carefree Dignity: Discourses on Training in the Nature of Mind
AMAZON.COM
Carefree Dignity: Discourses on Training in the Nature of Mind
Carefree Dignity: Discourses on Training in the Nature of Mind
Carefree Dignity: Discourses on Training in the Nature of Mind
AMAZON.COM
Carefree Dignity: Discourses on Training in the Nature of Mind
Carefree Dignity: Discourses on Training in the Nature of Mind
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
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Soh Wei Yu
Also i like this passage from the same book:
No matter how long ego-clinging and obscurations, Negative karma and disturbing emotions,
Have covered our nature,
They are totally gone in that one instant
Of genuinely recognizing the naked state of dharmakaya, Rigpa in actuality.
Once you have some training in this,
And if at the moment of death you recognize naked awareness, This body is discarded like a snake shedding its skin,
And you are liberated.
Do you understand about ground, path and fruition? Do you understand what is
meant by path? What is path? It’s okay to repeat what I said before. STUDENT: Path is confusion.
RINPOCHE: What’s the way to clear up this confusion? How many ways are there to clear up confusion?
STUDENT: Training. Meditation training. Conduct.
RINPOCHE: And? I mentioned these steps. Repeat them. It’s okay. STUDENT: Confidence.
RINPOCHE: Where does confidence come from?
STUDENT: From within.
RINPOCHE: How? From within what? From within the house?
STUDENT: From freedom.
RINPOCHE: Where does the freedom come from? Does it come from being confused? Does it come from being without confusion?
STUDENT: From seeing one’s own nature. RINPOCHE: Right. How is this nature? STUDENT: It is rigpa.
RINPOCHE: What is rigpa?
STUDENT: Self-existing awareness.
RINPOCHE: What is self-existing awareness? It has three qualities. What are those three?
STUDENT: Empty, cognizant, and endowed with capacity. RINPOCHE: Is there any sequence in those three? STUDENT: No there is no sequence.
RINPOCHE: When I talk about them I seem to talk about them one after another. Why is that? What is meant by empty essence? What does the emptiness feel like when experiencing? I mentioned before no center, no edge. What was the second?
STUDENT: Cognizant nature.
RINPOCHE: What is that like? Just use baby talk, normal words.
STUDENT: All five sense doors wide are open, and everything is clearly known.
RINPOCHE: Knowing what? Knowing that the five senses are wide open, or knowing what? Knowing that the consciousness is clear, awake? Knowing what?
STUDENT: Knowing that there is no subject.
RINPOCHE: It sounds good. The words sound good. The third quality, what’s the
third?
STUDENT: Unimpeded.
RINPOCHE: What does that mean?
STUDENT: All appearances, perceptions, and experiences are unimpeded.
RINPOCHE: What’s the connection between this unimpededness and the first two qualities? Is there a connection?
STUDENT: The emptiness and the cognizance are united. RINPOCHE: And how does that feel like?
STUDENT: Anything can arise.
RINPOCHE: What does that feel like in experience? Actually, there is no separate third quality. It’s simply the unity of the first two, because the first two are indivisible. That indivisibility is described as a third quality, but it’s not something separate at all. Honestly, the third is not a third. In fact, there are no two either. All three are simply one quality. What is that called?
STUDENT: Panoramic awareness, like wide-screen awareness.
RINPOCHE: Could you come up with a Tibetan word for it?
STUDENT: I don’t know Tibetan.
TRANSLATOR: I believe we have used one particular Tibetan word quite a lot. STUDENT: Rigpa.
RINPOCHE: Rigpa is good enough. You’re not to blame if you don’t know Tibetan and you’re new to this. How many qualities does rigpa have? It’s all right to say the three qualities just mentioned. [Laughter.] What about these three qualities? In the moment of recognizing, do we recognize them one by one, or what?
STUDENT: No.
RINPOCHE: But in terms of time? STUDENT: Simultaneously.
RINPOCHE: That’s true. That’s what we should know. When the three qualities are present simultaneously, at once, that can be called rigpa. Do you understand this? They are present at the same time, which is not really a time, but we can call it timelessness. Really, it’s timeless time. It can be called by another word also.
STUDENT: View.
RINPOCHE: View of what? Or by what? What knows this view? Rigpa knows. What is rigpa? Rigpa is something that has three qualities. Knowing these three qualities at once simultaneously is called rigpa. That we can also call the view. The view is used in all the different vehicles. But what is the Dzogchen view? The view in Dzogchen is rigpa, which is the simultaneous knowing that your essence is empty, your nature is cognizant, and your capacity is unconfined. Do you understand this? Is this clear? So, what is the training or meditation?
STUDENT: Sustaining the continuity. RINPOCHE: What needs to be sustained? STUDENT: Unfabricated naturalness. RINPOCHE: What is that?
STUDENT: Thought-free.
RINPOCHE: What’s that? What about rigpa? Wouldn’t it be okay to sustain rigpa? Don’t you like the word sustain?
STUDENT: It seems like there is some effort in sustaining. RINPOCHE: What about effortless sustaining? Would that be okay? STUDENT: Yes, that’s okay.
RINPOCHE: The continuity of that needs to be sustained. This is the continuity.
(Rinpoche rings the bell.)
First, by some effort, there’s a hitting together. There’s sound. That means you’ve arrived in rigpa. The three qualities are continually present, and that is called sustaining. After all, you have to use some word to describe it. That sustaining is what we call meditation. (Rinpoche rings the bell again.)
After hitting you, leave it. Right? You’re not continuing to keep, you’re not holding on, right? This is the sustaining of the undistracted nonmeditation. Now,
what is meant by conduct, or putting to use? Earlier I mentioned view, meditation and conduct, quite a few times. What do you understand by conduct? When is it needed? What is it?
STUDENT: Post-meditation.
RINPOCHE: Can somebody else answer? You don’t have to say more than two words, really, but if you need to, say as much as you want to say.
STUDENT: As soon as one is distracted, to arrive back in awareness effortlessly.
RINPOCHE: That sounds really good. If you can arrive back in rigpa without effort, that’s first-class. I didn’t expect that much. If you said something like, “To deliberately remind yourself to arrive back in rigpa,” that would be good enough. Even that would be first-class. But someone training in the way that you expressed means that you’re almost at the point of stability in rigpa. All objects of distraction have dissolved into the innate nature
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1d
Yin Ling
Soh Wei Yu thanks!
I like how we are talking about $$$ then you remind us about rigpa 🤣
Ok back to rigpa d
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
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- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/search/label/Career
Awakening to Reality
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
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Also, from the AtR guide:
“IMO there is no further, it is the depth of how deep and how much the self is released regardless of what path is taken. I am not a teacher, there may be other ways… … Dealing with the mind, energy and awareness is a complex journey. There is the safe way and the dangerous way. The way is quite straightforward but the mind uncontented will look for shortcuts as it wants more. But that is usual… lol. There are those that want others to know about it and wrote about it and there are those that are not into this.
Soh has written a lot and visited many masters that can probably share with you better.
As for me, my path is simple. It is just plainly and simply opening myself in my work, seeing my family and children enjoy… ever tasting these natural expressions. I find them miraculous yet ordinary, others may not and look for more. So I am unable to tell them anything further.” - John Tan, 2019
“Actually there is no forcing. All the 4 aspects in I AMness are fully expressed in anatta as I told you. If aliveness is everywhere, how is one not to engage… it is a natural [tendency] to explore in [various] arena[s] and enjoy in business, family, spiritual practices... I [am] involve[d] in Finance, business, society, nature, spirituality, yoga...🤣🤣🤣. I don't find it efforting… You just don't have to boast about this and that and be non-dual and open.” - John Tan, 2019
“Just met a friend yesterday who recently started meditating. His girlfriend joked that he might be becoming a monk. I told him that besides the daily sitting meditation (which is very important even after anatman realization, let alone before - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../how-silent...), practice is mostly and very much in daily life and engagement rather than in some remote region in the mountains, it is about living a life in the marketplace that is spontaneously beneficial for oneself and others around, and joyful, rather than one that is miserable. It is fully engaged and free.
Zen Master Bernie Glassman said,
“At its deepest, most basic level, Zen—or any spiritual path, for that matter—is much more than a list of what we can get from it. In fact, Zen is the realization of the oneness of life in all its aspects. It’s not just the pure or “spiritual” part of life: it’s the whole thing. It’s flowers, mountains, rivers, streams, and the inner city and homeless children on Forty-second Street. It’s the empty sky and the cloudy sky and the smoggy sky, too. It’s the pigeon flying in the empty sky, the pigeon shitting in the empty sky, and walking through the pigeon droppings on the sidewalk. It’s the rose growing in the garden, the cut rose shining in the vase in the living room, the garbage where we throw away the rose, and the compost where we throw away the garbage. Zen is life—our life. It’s coming to the realization that all things are nothing but expressions of myself. And myself is nothing but the full expression of all things. It’s a life without limits. There are many different metaphors for such a life. But the one that I have found the most useful, and the most meaningful, comes from the kitchen. Zen masters call a life that is lived fully and completely, with nothing held back, “the supreme meal.” And a person who lives such a life—a person who knows how to plan, cook, appreciate, serve, and offer the supreme meal of life, is called a Zen cook.”
“But why does a venerable elder such as yourself waste time doing the hard work of a head cook?” Dogen persisted. “Why don’t you spend your time practicing meditation or studying the words of the masters?” The Zen cook burst out laughing, as if Dogen had said something very funny. “My dear foreign friend,” he said, “it’s clear you do not yet understand what Zen practice is all about. When you get the chance, please come and visit me at my monastery so we can discuss these matters more fully.” And with that, he gathered up his mushrooms and began the long journey back to his monastery. Dogen did eventually visit and study with the Zen cook in his monastery, as well as with many other masters. When he finally returned to Japan, Dogen became a celebrated Zen master. But he never forgot the lessons he learned from the Zen cook in China.”
- Zen Master Bernie Glassman” - Soh, 2019
“In Zen, enlightenment implies full integration into activities. Any lack of such insight is not 'enlightenment in Zen'.” - John Tan, 2010
“My daily activities are not unusual,
I'm just naturally in harmony with them.
Grasping nothing, discarding nothing,
In every place there's no hindrance, no conflict.
Who assigns the ranks of vermilion and purple?
The hills' and mountains' last speck of dust
is extinguished.
[My] supernatural power and marvelous activity—
Drawing water and carrying firewood.” - Layman Pang
An old Zen saying— “Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.”
How silent meditation helped me with nondual inquiry
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How silent meditation helped me with nondual inquiry
How silent meditation helped me with nondual inquiry
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
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--> on my last post, that is very difficult if one has not had a genuine nondual breakthrough with mature insight into anatta (not just non doership), and then into the active mode of anatta and into total exertion.
Otherwise one will still be dissociating from daily experience and activity.
Instead of zeal and total engagement. Another excerpt from the AtR guide:
"Now, if you mature your insights to the point of true non-action and total exertion, you will not end up in a state of dissociation, passivity and lethargy. Instead, one lives life to its fullest, literally -- in all areas of life, fully alive, fully engaged and yet non-attached.
My impression from your post is that you are experiencing non-doership but with a sense of dissociation, along with some confusion. But if you progress in insights and practice in accordance with the AtR guide, or find a good Zen master (there are many good ones especially from the Soto Zen/Dogen's lineage) that can lead you to total exertion, your problems will be solved. You will come to experience whatever I said in this thread.
As John Tan/Thusness said before:
“When anatta matures, one is fully and completely integrated into whatever arises till there is no difference and no distinction.
When sound arises, fully and completely embraced with sound yet non-attached. Similarly, in life we must be fully engaged yet non-attached” - John Tan/Thusness
"
and another excerpt: "
Also, as John Tan/Thusness said many years ago:
“Nihilistic tendencies arise when the insight of anatta is skewed towards the no-doership aspect. The happening by itself must be correctly understood. It appears that things are accomplished by doing nothing but in actual case it is things get done due to ripening of action and conditions.
So the lack of self-nature does not imply nothing needs be done or nothing can be done. That is one extreme. At the other end of extreme is the self-nature of perfect control of what one wills, one gets. Both are seen to be false. Action + conditions leads to effect.”
3) Are you aware of the seven factors of awakening taught by the Buddha? They are mindfulness, investigation, energy, rapture, tranquility, stability of mind, and equanimity. This is how we should cultivate in our practice and also gauge where our practice is at. These are the factors to be cultivated, that leads to awakening and liberation. This means our practice should make us joyous, radiant, bright, aware, tranquil, calm, focused, with energy, have deeper insights, and so on. These positive qualities of mind naturally grow more and more as we practice. But if instead we become more and more like a zombie, more and more lethargic and demotivated, that means something is going wrong in our direction and we should investigate that and correct it. After maturing of anatta one feels great energy coursing through one's body and even one's complexions naturally radiates the joy and luminosity that is experienced.
I remember one of the first things John Tan/Thusness asked someone many years ago after that person described certain insight of no-self and non-doership, he asked, "has zealous energy arisen?" and commented, "Advisable to bring the insight of anatta into the active mode."
"
This link I wrote also goes into these issues: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../different-degress...
Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
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Having said all that, it is not good to be attached to materialistic pursuit. A sustainable career that is self sufficient should suffice for most purposes.
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14h
Mr ET
Read this article, figure out what your strengths are, get a job that pays as well as possible. If you are more on the renunciate side you can get your freedom in 5-10years. It’s really that simple…
It’s much more difficult to wake up in my experience. The financial side is possible to grind out, in awakening there always seem to be grace involved.
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/.../the-shockingly.../
The Shockingly Simple Math Behind Early Retirement
MRMONEYMUSTACHE.COM
The Shockingly Simple Math Behind Early Retirement
The Shockingly Simple Math Behind Early Retirement
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13h
Katherine Willow
I am 26. I started practicing seriously at 24. I have had a few experiences and gradual reductions in grasping but I am not realized.
Even with those gradual reductions my life and how I relate to it are dramatically different. Before I was chasing this idea of a computer science degree that was simply impossible for me to get bc of my conditions. I really wanted a really high paying job where all my financial troubles are gone (i have a lot of debt). But I realized that all that was grasping and that even if I was successful in that pursuit I would not be content.
Now my goal is to pursue whatever leads to happiness, contentment, and peace. That is a good life. It is still important to work in a decent career with that (getting rid of that debt and saving are still important) but the need to make my life into something it is not is much less, and I am happier for it.
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13h
Yin LingAdmin
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You are very young. By the time I have any insights I already have a degree, a postgrad degree, working in a specialised job that benefit the world without causing much trouble for the world and a relationship, so I continue doing that. Not much change, I still need to budget my money, cook my own food, wash my laundry, go to work, complain about work, study to pass my exams 🤣
Only how i see the world is different, the meaning of “world” and “self” to me is also different but exteriorly I’m just the same.
Do you have a skills that can benefit the world and sustain yourself in the world without impacting too much on others(taking benefits from not working etc)?
That is crucial. If you are in uni, finish uni. If you have a job, be good and responsible in your job and try to do well.
If you want to give up the world, be a monastic properly.
Don’t trouble others, don’t be unemployed and take benefits and use spiritual as bypassing(just saying in general not pointing fingers) to not work and contribute.
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10h
Mr./Ms. JT
I had when I was 12 years old some kind of awakening when I was trying meditation second or third time. I remember after that something I was school dining room and thought came that I am kind of awake. Didnt know any enlightenment stuff that time. It felt that earlier years I had been kind of sleeping. It gave some clarity into my mind and school grades went up. The problem was that I had not any teachers and still wanted to fit in group. I ended up to build quite dysfunctional ego/identity structure and habits. The journey after that (which of course doesnt exit because I am here now writing this) was seeking, meeting gurus etc. and being meditation teacher, writing a book about nature meditation, giving retreats and courses... the dysfunctional activity made something to happen. Lately there has been some moments of non duality where is "picture full of aliveness without any center / nobody there"... seems that this human mammal has still a bit emotions and tensions... so Life seems to do emotional work and maybe ... it seems that Consciosness seem to want penetrate more deeply and express itself more freely. And as they say that there are shadows of past I would say that what is happening in time in future cast energy in past. So what happened when I was 12 or some other thing when I was 3 or 4 are just waves of energy that born some major events now and in up coming future... I would say so they have gravity and there is no free will so we are just flowing towards them so idea of goals and aspirations are not creating anything they are just sign posts that we approaching something...
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9h
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Albert HongTop contributor
if you cannot be successful in the basic human conventional worldy sense of relationship and job and etc then any subtle pursuit will amount to nothing but fantasy and deflection.
you have to master the material. completely and ruthlessly. if that isn't possible then how are you going to conquer the most subtle and sublime aspects of spirituality? if we consider how rare a Michael Jordan is. a buddha is infinitely more rarer. how can someone accomplish what only a handful of beings on this planet throughout space and time have accomplish?
spirituality demands way more ambition than becoming a professional in anything.
also relationship is important. paramount even. its so easy to be profound and have auch grand ideas about the world and oneself. yet be absolutely alone and live in a reality tunnel where you don't get feedback from others.
learning to live with others works out so many issues in us.
so i guess in a sense i don't see much difference in any pursuit. all takes discipline and passion. if you want to amount to anything.
i really enjoy Dr. K from healthygamergg. his story on how he was a monk and wanting to lead a monastic life but then told by his guru to move into a more lay life becoming a doctor and then getting married and having kids and the eventual fruit of all his activity and how it has been benefiting a lot of people.
in the end, we don't know. we have to live with the paths we choose. some good, some bad. some become good and some become bad. hard to say for sure about anything.
but imho there has to be a certain maturing of basic human concerns. then spirituality makes much more sense in the broadest sense. and then whether you have a relationship or not, a job or not won't really matter.
but as Rudi says. its very easy to renounce things that we don't even have or are attached to. if im not getting laid then its easy to just say yeah im celibate now. but try celibacy when you actually have an interest in someone and they also want you as well. try renouncing when yoo actually have real passion and desire.
thats where it counts. it counts because there is energy or friction in that. and you can use that to fuel all kinds of mundane and supermundane pursuits.
if you only take care of spiritual things then there is no issue. its like people who decide to be artists or musicians. they just do it completely and dont give a rats ass about anything else. life conspirs to help them. their will forces a magnetism. and everything doesn't matter. that's some really amazing karma.
but for most of us we are half in and half out. we don't amount to anything because we want to pursuit spirituality and yet we are endlessly dragged down via the concerns of food, sex, relationship, money, security, comfort pleasure and power. and these are real concerns that we need to work out. not as ideas but as actual life.
so mastering all of that to such a degree that it doesn't sap energy from us, but rather gives us more energy so we can pursuit subtle avenues which feeds right back into our life.
so balance is important.
but actually in the end you have to disregard what everyone is saying to you. their experience and wisdom is theirs. they earned it via living it.
you have to be a fool and go and do it yourself. whatever you do, just do it all the way. there is always something valuable to learn.
all this second hand knowledge is just going to confused and muck up everything.
make mistakes and try things. live life.
go trial mode and be a monk for a month or a year.
why not?
so tbh thats my actual advice. completely disregard everything written by everyone and carve out your own life and path.
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9h
Mr. JW
Albert Hong To this end, I've really appreciated the pithy dualism of "Waking up" vs "Growing up." Many people seem to conflate the two, but one does not always or necessarily imply the other. Deep, profound experiences of gnosis do not automatically uproot the immature, asshole parts of us that see no harm in telling white lies to avoid work duties.
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8h
Albert HongTop contributor
Mr. JW it's an interesting thing because the buddha himself was a profound warrior. his upbringing as a prince in a sheltered life is somewhat inconceivable to us. same with his profound love for his wife and child, whom he abandoned to figure all of this out. it was a profound gamble, he could of been another dead beat dad who never came back from getting milk.
but its also difficult to give any real advice without knowing the whole circumstance of an individual and even then what advice would i give other than my own limitations? everyone's life is so unique and i cannot see the lines of karma for people, hence i don't know whats actually good or bad for them in their actual karmic lineage going backwards and forwards infinitely.
hell i'm 35 and i am still growing up. i feel i somewhat regressed from when i was an actual adult around 25.
i sneeze and i catch myself wincing because i sound exactly like my father. in sneeze and in even the shit i say. the irony.
but truly it is all about turning asshole into love. that's pretty amazing if you really sit down and think about it. because i've been quite the asshole and still am. and to me thats very important because its actually the thing that is actually real in my actual life.
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8h
Albert HongTop contributor
like mansplaining and being right. the very fabric of testosterone and maleness.
i could work on this for years.
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8h
Albert HongTop contributor
i really do believe spirituality is a massive deflection to avoid looking at the kleshas one plays out day in and day out.
the very thing that in theory is supposed to illuminate and transform, is used to mask and hide.
but i am speaking for myself. i don't know other people's experience.
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8h
Albert HongTop contributor
rereading everything i wrote and i just want to say that i sound like a crusty boomer. jesus, when did i get so old and jaded.
lol i remember my teacher said when he was younger he met a sublime being and he asked what it would take to accomplish realization. that sublime being said that basically everything you want to do, you don't do and everything you don't want to do, you do. and my teacher said thank you and backed away and never again went to see that person. decades later he found that advice to be actually true.
maybe its something like that?
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8h
Mr. MPTop contributor
Albert Hong Had a moment with my wife yesterday where we were mildly arguing about something (stupid and unimportant), I was starting to realize I was definitely wrong, but felt that strong need to keep defending my position. The energy is really powerful!
Suddenly I noticed the situation and paused. Walked back in to the other room after a minute and said "I was totally wrong, sorry about that. Thought I was right, but definitely was mistaken". She looked at me kind of shocked...
Letting go of being right in those kinds of situations is definitely not as easy as people might think. That energy has so much momentum.
Felt great though. This meditation stuff is paying off lol...
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5h
Albert HongTop contributor
Mr. MP lol to admit we are wrong to our partners. that takes some serious chutzpah.
but it really do be like that.
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4h
Albert HongTop contributor
it really is a remarkable challenge that only a partner can present to us.
i've personally becomes so much more aware of how we as men see the world so differently. Well I can only speak for myself, but I've learned a lot of skills I would have never learned if I didn't interact with women.
Like the feeling tonality of conversation is so important and way more important than getting the idea right or even solving the problem. A lot of times just being able to validate is all that's required.
i'm not even sure this stuff has anything to do with dharma persay. it's just learning skillful communication.
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4h
Mr. MPTop contributor
Albert Hong Absolutely. I really think that people that have some degree of realization don't really know how stable it is unless you've been in relationship.
I've been shocked in this last year especially to see stuff come up that used to set me off for hours (or days) almost immediately drop away. It's such a blessing. Vivid psychedelic perception is cool, but not being bound by emotional tar pits actually feels like liberation.
And whether or not skillful communication is Dharma (I think it is), it definitely makes you much better at relieving suffering and *sharing* Dharma...
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4h
Mr. JW
Albert Hong All of that is very relatable. Especially becoming my father 😃 Marriage has certainly been the most challenging experience of adult life, but also the most rewarding. Sort of like a karmic slingshot. Everything comes up, and it comes up fast. Sink or swim; resolve or divorce. I'm coming up on six years with my wife (Mara, lol), and she's undoubtedly been the strongest push to get my shit together and figure out how to thrive. I'm fortunate to have somebody who understands the eccentricities practitioners are prone to... without indulging them or accepting spiritual bypassing. A wrathful dakini, that one!
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4h
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