https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/posts/9010354319005918/?__cft__[0]=AZUCNjQPcLm8pq3PqXn11N4M22_Bzi2MWNGC-nzKGBnfleKnotMgipcjCfDmj3JxfLcNK-yofw5OeDEUdZG2mQ8mYFejapQLEe8hXtusprPuBVrVuGuzqAaMM2DN1JIW01vndrVxLja-7zyVd_qTJ8DtsFhHHXx8OycR4ph7wt8h22ee7rH50ZUmS0n3FjZbixM&__cft__[1]=AZUCNjQPcLm8pq3PqXn11N4M22_Bzi2MWNGC-nzKGBnfleKnotMgipcjCfDmj3JxfLcNK-yofw5OeDEUdZG2mQ8mYFejapQLEe8hXtusprPuBVrVuGuzqAaMM2DN1JIW01vndrVxLja-7zyVd_qTJ8DtsFhHHXx8OycR4ph7wt8h22ee7rH50ZUmS0n3FjZbixM&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R]-R

Ruben's Post



Comments

Karol Lew Bednarczyk

Please let me know how do you handle everyday tasks and obligations.

Reply2d

Ruben Farina

Author

Karol Lew Bednarczyk yeah this will be interesting because usually I have some difficulties in that field. But it's been only 2 days and no stressful triggering situations so I don't have much to say for now.

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Ruben Farina

Author

also I don't know if this is proper anatta realization still.

Reply2d

Mike Fenton

Ruben Farina Row Row Row your boat, gently down the stream. Merrily Merrily Merrily Merrily, LIFE IS BUT A DREAM!

Yes it’s all just a Dream. When you wake up from a night time dream you instantly realize you were not just the main character in the dream, but you were Everything! The whole thing happened inside you! The whole show.

It’s the same for your life in your body. It’s just a Dream in You, the consciousness / Awareness.

Only now when you wake up, you won’t jump into another body (as you do in night time dream). You will simply remain as your true nature of consciousness / awareness.

Keep working on it. Keep trying. When you get it, try to stay in it. Notice what pulls you back into the dream.

Slowly slowly, meditation after meditation you will find you can do it quite easily and quite reliably.

Beautiful to hear your experiences 🙏❤️🙏

Reply2d

Karol Lew Bednarczyk

Mike Fenton do you know it from your own experience? 🙏

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Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Mike Fenton Ruben Farina's insight is deeper than that.. It relates to https://kiloby.com/the-case-against-awareness-a-little.../ and https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../no-awareness-does...

The Case Against Awareness – A Little Blasphemy Goes a Long Way - Kiloby.com

KILOBY.COM

The Case Against Awareness – A Little Blasphemy Goes a Long Way - Kiloby.com

The Case Against Awareness – A Little Blasphemy Goes a Long Way - Kiloby.com

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Yin Ling

Admin

Nice 🙂

If I were to ask you

Who hears the sound?

Who sees the scenery?

How in your own words would you describe ?

Reply2d

Ruben Farina

Author

Yin Ling To me sound appears as a complete experience, meaning there is no external hearer but rather seems like hearer arises "within" sound and experientially this feels like sound is the hearer/hearing. But I don't normally experience it in these terms, it's more like sense phenomena are "closer than me" like something that pierces any sense of distance.

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Yin Ling

Admin

Ruben Farina isn’t that great? 😁

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Ruben Farina

Author

Yin Ling it seems like the beginning of a true opening, it feels good but I'm also experiencing mixed emotions

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Ruben Farina

Author

it's definitely a good thing tho

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Yin Ling

Admin

Ruben Farina mixed emotions, you mind saying more?

Take ur time. It can be disorientating.

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Ruben Farina

Author

Yin Ling It's like I'm more sensitive to everything and also experiencing everything at a deeper level and it can be beautiful but also a bit heavy.

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Yin Ling

Admin

Ruben Farina yes. 🙂 I understand what you mean. It’s a very sensitive time. Take it very easy. Do a lot of physical movements, walk, whatever suits you best. You know best. Relaxingly look into the experience of non duality, no self.

Once this becomes stable, you can look into emptiness insight because emptiness insight will lighten up the whole sensing and energy will feel more natural. So no matter how much water surge in from the “sudden broken dam”.. you are able to handle it better with emptiness 🙂

Happy for you !

Reply1dEdited

Ruben Farina

Author

Yin Ling thank you, yes I'm doing some yoga asana

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Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Ruben Farina " hearer arises "within" sound and experientially this feels like sound is the hearer/hearing"

This part have to be careful. Even if nondual, if you still see in terms of a hearer that is all-pervading, everywhere, then you have not overcome essence view, or view of inherent existence pertaining to self/Self/Awareness. Even if nondual, it is not yet anatta.

Anatta requires this insight:

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../we-are-not-trying...

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-wind-is...

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../difference-between...

If this is not clear yet, then good to contemplate on this point until breakthrough insight.

We are not trying to merge knower and known!

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

We are not trying to merge knower and known!

We are not trying to merge knower and known!

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Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Many people after nondual glimpses or breakthroughs, they rest in nondual experience but they are not aware it is the view aspect that is obscuring and this prevents stability or further breakthroughs. This is why John Tan wrote to someone else in 2012,

"Experience as I told u do tapered off after a 60-90 days period. This is

because practitioners tend to focus on the experience rather than view after

initial realization. Although he realizes the truth of anatta, the

'dualistic and inherent view' runs far deeper than what we think. But he

will wake up one day and everything turns effortless and natural and it

should be close. The part on the total exertion is still however lacking,

there is still inner holding and lingering trace of "One Mind". 🙂"

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Soh Wei Yu

Admin

I also wrote over a decade ago,

“Good insight. Stability of experience has a predictable relationship with the unfolding and deepening of insights. For example how seamless and effortless can non-dual experience be, if in the back of one's mind, subtle views of duality and inherency and tendencies continue to surface and affect our moment to moment experience - for example conjuring an unchanging source or mind that results in a perpetual tendency to sink back and referencing experience back to a source.

For example even after it is seen that everything is a manifestation of awareness or mind, there might still be subtle tendencies to reference back to a source, awareness or mind and therefore the transience is not appreciated in full. Nondual is experienced but one sinks back into substantial nonduality - there is always a referencing back to a base, an "awareness" that is nevertheless inseparable from all phenomena.

If one arises the insight that our ideas of an unchanging source, awareness or mind is just another thought - that there is simply thought after thought, sight after sight, sound after sound, and there isn't an inherent or unchanging "awareness", "mind", "source". Non-dual becomes implicit and effortless when there is the realisation that what awareness, seeing, hearing really is, is just the seen... The heard... The transience... The transience itself rolls and knows, no knower or other "awareness" can be found. Like there is no river apart from flowing, no wind apart from blowing, each noun implies its verb... Similarly awareness is simply the process of knowing not separated from the known. Scenery sees, music hears. Because there is nothing unchanging, independent, ultimate apart from the transience, there is no more sinking back to a source and instead there is full comfort resting as the transience itself.

Lastly do continue practicing the intensity of luminosity... When looking at tennis ball just sense the tennis ball fully.... Without thinking of a source, background, observer, self. Just the tennis ball as a luminous light. When breathing... Just the breathe... When seeing scenery, just sights, shapes and colours - intensely luminous and vivid without an agent or observer. When hearing music... Sound of bird chirping, the crickets… Just that - chirp chirp. A zen master noted upon his awakening... When I am hearing the bell ringing, there is no I and no bell... Just the ringing. The direct experiencing of no-mind and intensity of luminosity.. This is the purpose of the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness that is taught by the Buddha.” - Soh, 2011

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../a-and-emptiness_1.html

+A and -A Emptiness

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

+A and -A Emptiness

+A and -A Emptiness

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Ruben Farina

Author

Soh Wei Yu ok, before the last insight there was a short period in which I recognized awareness as something surrounding phenomena, like an aware space. Insight was discovering awareness has always been phenomena. This is now gradually being experienced as no doer, no seer etc... sometimes no body/mind but not stable yet.

Reply8h

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Ruben Farina

There is another insight that is needed for no body mind to stabilise. Do read the mind body drop chapter in the longer atr guide under stage 5 https://app.box.com/s/157eqgiosuw6xqvs00ibdkmc0r3mu8jg

Awakening to Reality_ A Guide to the Nature of Mind (11-MARCH-2023_DRAFT).docx | Powered by Box

APP.BOX.COM

Awakening to Reality_ A Guide to the Nature of Mind (11-MARCH-2023_DRAFT).docx | Powered by Box

Awakening to Reality_ A Guide to the Nature of Mind (11-MARCH-2023_DRAFT).docx | Powered by Box

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Soh Wei Yu

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Ruben Farina

Yes so in the recent insight, you saw through awareness as an unchanging substance and now it is more like weather yes? A name collating various luminous manifestation/phenomena but not a findable entity or substance or substratum.

That is anatta. Stabilize this then go deeper into D.O. And twofold emptiness

Reply8h

Ruben Farina

Author

Soh Wei Yu yeah it became clear that what we call awareness are actually phenomena themselves, before this I knew that by reading but wasn't sure

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Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Ruben Farina

Do you still have the view and sense that awareness is modulating as everything, as if awareness transforms into this and that thing as if clay can be moulded into various shapes but remains clay, ocean can form different waves but still ocean. How do you perceive awareness to be?

Reply7hEdited

Ruben Farina

Author

Soh Wei Yu I don't think I have that view, I percieve awareness as chirping birds, passing cars etc

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Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Ruben Farina

So awareness is none other than chirping birds, passing cars, etc? Chirping birds, passing cars, are they the same awareness?

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Ruben Farina

Author

Soh Wei Yu no awareness apart from phenomena so they are not the same awareness but share similar qualities that I'm discovering

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Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Ruben Farina Thats good. So, anatta is not just about nondual. One can still establish an unchanging awareness that is modulating or nondual with everything, this is substantial nondualism. You see such views espoused by Advaita teachers like Rupert Spira. It is nondual but not anatta. "One awareness" is not exhausted. Therefore as John Tan said years ago about someone else, ""Yes. Subject and object can both collapsed into pure seeing but it is only when this pure seeing is also dropped/exhausted that natural spontaneity and effortlessness can begin to function marvelously. That is y it has to be thorough and all the "emphasis". But I think he gets it, so u don't have to keep nagging 🤣." - John Tan"

So since there is no awareness apart from phenomena, awareness as something existing in and of itself is exhausted into the mere vivid and vibrant aliveness, purity, transparency or crystal clarity and pellucidity of merely the appearance or displays.

Yet be careful of the tendency to reify a ground, a Here/Now base. Even if 'who' is gone, Here/Now can still surface, creating a substantialist sinking tendency to ground in some reality. Especially if view is still not strong at first and one prefers to rest in nondual and non-conceptual presence/appearance, leading into 'disease of non-conceptuality' or 'desync between experience and view'. But as you deepen your insights into anatta, dependent origination and emptiness, even subtle tendencies to ground and establish or hold dissolves through wisdom.

If after anatta we investigate further into the very nature of this vivid display/consciousness, this sound, this sight, this scent, where is it, we realize its unfindability whatsoever (but it's not some inert nothingness, but the union of emptiness and appearance). Utterly coreless and groundless. Instead, we discover that everything is like mere designation or like chariot, we don't find cores and substances, just mere dependent origination that never truly originated/never truly arose, much like the dependent origination and non-origination of a reflection, echo or rainbow. To truly penetrate into the nature of Buddhadharma, should also look into dependent origination and emptiness besides anatta and no agent.

Buddha does not establish 'One Consciousness' (Brahman) let alone one that 'modulates' into 'anything and everything', he taught six consciousnesses and even these six consciousnesses do not truly exist in and of themselves. The purpose of teaching six consciousness is not to classify needlessly or split things up merely for the sake of classification itself or to expand semantics (in this case it doesn't resolve any ignorance whatsoever), rather it is to point out that consciousness is 'name only' and 'dependent', and not inherently existing. It is to point out dependent origination in order for us to break through subtle tendencies to conceive inherent existence. Just as a chariot is named after its parts and conditions, and cannot be found in any of the parts or conditions nor apart from them, consciousness is named after its conditions and there's just no consciousness to speak of apart from these conditions, as the Buddha taught very clearly here:

https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi?reference=none...

“Yes, friend,” he replied, and he went to the Blessed One, and after paying homage to him, sat down at one side. The Blessed One then asked him: “Sāti, is it true that the following pernicious view has arisen in you: ‘As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another’?”

“Exactly so, venerable sir. As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another.”

“What is that consciousness, Sāti?”

“Venerable sir, it is that which speaks and feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions.”

“Misguided man, to whom have you ever known me to teach the Dhamma in that way? Misguided man, have I not stated in many ways consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness? But you, misguided man, have misrepresented us by your wrong grasp and injured yourself and stored up much demerit; for this will lead to your harm and suffering for a long time.”

Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus thus: “Bhikkhus, what do you think? Has this bhikkhu Sāti, son of a fisherman, kindled even a spark of wisdom in this Dhamma and Discipline?”

“How could he, venerable sir? No, venerable sir.”

When this was said, the bhikkhu Sāti, son of a fisherman, sat silent, dismayed, with shoulders drooping and head down, glum, and without response. Then, knowing this, the Blessed One told him: “Misguided man, you will be recognised by your own pernicious view. I shall question the bhikkhus on this matter.”

Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus thus: “Bhikkhus, do you understand the Dhamma taught by me as this bhikkhu Sāti, son of a fisherman, does when he misrepresents us by his wrong grasp and injures himself and stores up much demerit?”

“No, venerable sir. For in many discourses the Blessed One has stated consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness.”

“Good, bhikkhus. It is good that you understand the Dhamma taught by me thus. For in many ways I have stated consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness. But this bhikkhu Sāti, son of a fisherman, misrepresents us by his wrong grasp and injures himself and stores up much demerit; for this will lead to the harm and suffering of this misguided man for a long time.

Conditionality of Consciousness

“Bhikkhus, consciousness is reckoned by the particular condition dependent upon which it arises. When consciousness arises dependent on the eye and forms, it is reckoned as eye-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the ear and sounds, it is reckoned as ear-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the nose and odours, it is reckoned as nose-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the tongue and flavours, it is reckoned as tongue-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the body and tangibles, it is reckoned as body-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the mind and mind-objects, it is reckoned as mind-consciousness. Just as fire is reckoned by the particular condition dependent on which it burns—when fire burns dependent on logs, it is reckoned as a log fire; when fire burns dependent on faggots, it is reckoned as a faggot fire; when fire burns dependent on grass, it is reckoned as a grass fire; when fire burns dependent on cowdung, it is reckoned as a cowdung fire; when fire burns dependent on chaff, it is reckoned as a chaff fire; when fire burns dependent on rubbish, it is reckoned as a rubbish fire—so too, consciousness is reckoned by the particular condition dependent on which it arises. When consciousness arises dependent on the eye and forms, it is reckoned as eye-consciousness…when consciousness arises dependent on the mind and mind-objects, it is reckoned as mind-consciousness."

(Continue reading in https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi?reference=none... )

SUTTACENTRAL.NET

suttacentral.net | 502: Bad gateway

suttacentral.net | 502: Bad gateway

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Soh Wei Yu

Admin

"share similar qualities that I'm discovering"

I wouldn't say this is wrong but we have to be careful even about this. Not to reify awareness into some intrinsic nature, just like wetness of water does not withstand scrutiny, awareness does not withstand scrutiny or survive analysis as some intrinsic characteristic of phenomena (although the vivid quality of presence is indeed experientially speaking all-pervasive after anatta):

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../wetness-and-water...

Wetness and Water

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=28648&start=20

Malcolm:

What do you mean by "nature?" Most people mean something that is intrinsic to a given thing. For example, common people assume the nature of fire is heat, the nature of water is wetness, and so on.

Bhavaviveka, etc., do not accept that things have natures. If they did, they could not be included even in Mahāyāna, let alone Madhyamaka.

...

The idea that things have natures is refuted by Nāgārjuna in the MMK, etc., Bhavaviveka, Candrakīrti, etc., in short by all Madhyamakas.

A "non-inherent nature" is a contradiction in terms.

The error of mundane, conventionally-valid perception is to believe that entities have natures, when in fact they do not, being phenomena that arise from conditions. It is quite easy to show a worldly person the contradiction in their thinking. Wetness and water are not two different things; therefore wetness is not the nature of water. Heat and fire are not two different things, therefore, heat is not the nature of fire, etc. For example, one can ask them, "Does wetness depend on water, or water on wetness?" If they claim wetness depends on water, ask them, where is there water that exists without wetness? If they claim the opposite, that water depends on wetness, ask them, where is there wetness that exists without water? If there is no wetness without water nor water without wetness, they can easily be shown that wetness is not a nature of water, but merely a name for the same entity under discussion. Thus, the assertion that wetness is the nature of water cannot survive analysis. The assertion of all other natures can be eliminated in the same way.

...

Then not only are you ignorant of the English language, but you are ignorant of Candrakīrti where, in the Prasannapāda, he states that the only nature is the natureless nature, emptiness.

Then, if it is asked what is this dharmatā of phenomena, it is the essence of phenomena. If it is ask what is an essence, it is a nature [or an inherent existence, rang bzhin]. If it is asked what is an inherent existence [or nature], it is emptiness. If it is asked what is emptiness, it is naturelessness [or absence of inherent existence]. If it is asked what is the absence of inherent existence [or naturelessness], it is suchness [tathāta]. If it is asked what is suchness, it is the essence of suchness that is unchanging and permanent, that is, because it is not fabricated it does not arise in all aspects and because it is not dependent, it is called the nature [or inherent existence] of fire, etc."

Labels: Ācārya Malcolm Smith, Emptiness, Madhyamaka |

Wetness and Water

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Wetness and Water

Wetness and Water

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Soh Wei Yu

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Rainbow

John Tan

snooSedtrh39f07a5lc8h1fu ·

Listening to someone tutoring about "rainbow",

The teaching of science came to my mind.

The raindrops, the sunshine;

The light that enters and exits the droplets;

The reflection, refraction and light dispersion;

All these formed the rainbow.

But they missed the most important factor,

The radiance of our own mind.

1 Comment

Jayson MPaul

Rainbows need to have eyes in correct position, water droplets, light, radiant mind, all like so for rainbow to appear. Move slightly and rainbow is gone. Never came from anywhere, stayed anywhere, or went anywhere. The rainbow was insubstantial, but vividly displayed. All phenomena are like this.

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Stian Gudmundsen Høiland

Look ahead and you see the table and your phone. Need "all like so" (tatha). Look behind you and that is gone, but now a new like so and not otherwise.

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Edited

Dragan Milojević

What radiance of mind? Where is it, science needs proofs and evidence. Mind is only a perceptor and analyzer.

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John Tan

Dragan Milojević Science can prove the sad tears of a mother are H2O but can't prove the "sadness". As human, we need both.

But I like ur question, Where is this radiance?

Yes where is it? Even Buddha cannot know it's whereabout.

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Edited

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Soh Wei Yu

Admin


Ruben Farina After you stabilize anatta, you can look into these links: 


https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2011/02/putting-aside-presence-penetrate-deeply.html


https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/03/my-favourite-sutra-non-arising-and.html


https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/06/non-arising-due-to-dependent-origination.html


https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/01/tan-there-r-2-lvl-of-understanding-from.html


https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/10/where-is-flower.html


https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/10/two-levels-of-emptiness.html


https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2013/04/daniel-post-on-anattaemptiness.html


https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/08/emptinesschariot-as-vivid-appearing.html


https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/06/emptiness-non-arising.html


http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2014/07/a-and-emptiness_1.html


http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2012/06/advice-for-taiyaki.html

Reply43mEdited

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

John Tan's advise to someone after anatta:

[7/10/20, 12:39:43 PM] Soh Wei Yu: That time he hasnt realised anatta i think. Only no mind

[7/10/20, 12:40:14 PM] John Tan: Like I said yesterday, even anatta there r several phases.

[7/10/20, 12:41:52 PM] John Tan: Anatta as in the experiential insight of seeing through self and seeing through the cause for the sense of self is different.

[7/10/20, 12:48:32 PM] John Tan: The later path one towards emptiness realizing "inherency" is the result of a reification. One then progress through deconstructing the reification thoroughly and gain the prajna (wisdom) that not only sees through directly the mental constructs and conventionalities but also the direct knowledge of one's empty clarity.

[7/10/20, 12:57:25 PM] John Tan: ‎This message was deleted.

[7/10/20, 1:01:41 PM] John Tan: Don't rush post anatta or even no-mind but refine one's view. Nevertheless it is hard not to get energy imbalances initially which is due attachment of going after certain experiences.

The sense of self/Self or any sense of it-ness is a hindrance for natural spontaneity and therefore thorough exhaustion is necessary. However maturing this emptiness of "it-ness or self-ness" post anatta is an ongoing process. Deeply held blindspots are slippery and extremely difficult to see and can take decades to reveal.

So practice calmly and evenly...don't rush into anything...

Just relax and be fully open to whatever arises without dual, don't go after anything and keep refining view instead of chasing after experiences. Eventually the clarity of seeing through will automatically result in the everyday experiences.

[7/10/20, 1:13:23 PM] John Tan: Without dual and without self

‎[7/10/20, 1:13:54 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted

[7/10/20, 1:15:06 PM] John Tan: ‎This message was deleted.

[7/10/20, 1:18:01 PM] John Tan: Just continue with current practice. Allow the whole body mind to become a sensing organ, vibrantly alive and intimately connected with the ten thousand things!

Reply26m





Your

    Mr O's Post


    Once you’ve realized maha and spontaneous perfection, what’s the point of formal practice of meditation anymore?
    I’ve been doing vipassana and shikantaza for years, but lately, formal sitting practice seems entirely superfluous. All the inquiry into how self and objects work, all the focus on deconstructing perception, and other such fascinating and all-consuming questions, seem to have just run their course.
    Why do it anymore? I can see several potential answers to this question:
    1) It’s entirely unimportant to practice and it can just be let go of.
    2) One should keep practicing because it’s a good maintenance practice (i.e., for continual processing of mind-body patterns, for unwinding energetic blocks on a daily basis, or just as a relaxation or restorative practice). If so, then probably something like qigong or yoga would be even more beneficial than vipassana or shikantaza, wouldn’t it?
    3) It’s not strictly necessary, but it is desirable to keep practicing because one can develop different types of knowledge, siddhis, or other powers or abilities that can be used to help others. Not to peruse any goal on my part, but just to be a more effective bodhisattva in the world. In that case, I don’t think it actually matters what kind of practice one engages in. For example, I never did tonglen, but maybe that would be helpful and I should take it up. Or any other practice that seems like it would have some benefit.
    EDIT suggested by some of the comments made below:
    4) Perhaps it's actually necessary to keep up intensively meditating in order to avoid "backsliding" out of awakening or to continue to maintain an awakened state?
    I’d appreciate any thoughts from those of you who can relate. Thank you 🙏

    Comments


  • Albert Hong
    you do formal practice because you enjoy it. lol. it really is that simple.


    Mr. O
    Author
    Albert Hong lol. Well, in that case, maybe I’ll just take walks in nature instead. ☀️


    Albert Hong
    Mr. O there is a lot of value in walks in nature. doing what we truly enjoy. and really if we hold view then all of that can be exactly the same as formal practice. but we can also make believe that and totally destroy our path.
    lol no one but ourselves truly knows when we are actually practicing or not.


  • Mr. O
    Author
    Albert Hong what do you mean by “hold view”? Sounds like you’re saying some kind of efforting is still required to maintain the realization?


  • Albert Hong
    Mr. O oh most certainly. definitely a lot of effort on my end. I have a LOT of bad habits. and definitely hav absolutely no realization.


  • Mr. O
    Author
    Albert Hong I'm sure you don't want any advice about that, but I'll just share that, for me, when the efforting seemed like it was becoming counterproductive I found the Radiance Sutras quite helpful. It's not Buddhist though, so make of it what you will....


  • Albert Hong
    also if one has no distinction between formal and informal then one has elevated informal to the momentum of formal practice. not the other way around. but that level of attainment or actualization of view in your continumm would have to be continually tested.
    i personally go back and forth from retreat practice to living a very demanding conventional life of working. i find practice when i can control the conditions to be much easier aka retreat. but when dealing with a lot of movement and action and people. then its much difficult to practice, yet alone hold any profound views.
    thus for myself i need to do a lot of formal practice to have a momentum so that daily life doesn't overwhelm me. and at times i fail and at times i succeed.
    and at rare instances performance and practice are unified. then to just live life in lots of action is exactly the view.
    but that's rare. hahaja


    Albert Hong
    tbh i think at the point where formal practice isn't necessary one would do formal practice anyways out of the sheer habit cultivated from decades of sitting. so i'm not really sure its a choice.


  • Mr. O
    Author
    Albert Hong yes I’ve been sitting out of habit, but considering the value of doing something more intentional.


  • Mr. O
    Author
    Albert Hong I have never done retreats. Just living normal life. Not so busy though, so I’ve had lots of time to devote to meditation, inquiry, qigong, and other related things (3-4 hours per day).








  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    What do you mean by maha and spontaneous perfection?
    Are you suggesting you have realized it? If so, what is it experientially like for you?


    Mr. O
    Author
    Soh Wei Yu it’s a long story, and I may use different terminology since I’m not coming at this from a Buddhist framework, but in a nutshell…
    There’s no longer any subject/perceiver behind perception, all perceptions/objects are unfindable/unpindownable, everything appearing is empty like a flow of fizzy champagne bubbles that pop before you can see them, there’s no resistance to the bubbles arising and no identification with them either, everything is seen to be the dance of the great Goddess (who of course herself is also empty).
    Also, it’s clear that the flow of experience is completely intertwined with the way of seeing it, so that the latter influences the former and vice versa. (For example, I turn the whole universe into a heavenly realm or a starry galaxy by perceiving it that way.)
    Oh, and also, I talk to devas and ancestors and nature spirits, which started happening along the way…. although that may be beyond the scope of your question.
    All that being said, the actual experience of all of that is quite “normal.” After years of mystical experiences, big openings, and disorienting perceptual and energetic shifts, it’s now just all become super ordinary. It’s kind of like pre-awakening, minus all the identification and resistance and trouble, and minus that gripping feeling in my core that kept everything I used to do based in fear. Everything is ordinary, but beautiful and flowing and perfectly ok just as it is.
    The radiance of the Goddess shines like sun rays everywhere all the time, even in the dark of night — both metaphorically and literally.
    Does that help?


    Yin Ling
    Admin
    A few more Q so I thjnk the rest can help answer you easier if u don’t mind.. ? (Ignore if u mind ok)
    When you talk to devas, ancestors, and spirits, in what situation do you talk to them? Astral travel? Day to day? Dreams?
    When you listen to a sound, how does the perceiving seems like to you?
    As you walk in a garden, how does experience reflect back ? Who experiences ?


  • Mr. O
    Author
    Hi Yin Ling. Thanks for the questions. I don't mind.
    I talk to devas, ancestors, and spirits through a morning 30-45 min ritual I have developed. I listen to shamanic drumming and do some free-form movements, and they appear. I know that these things are not the focus of this group, but I would say that these days, this is my primary practice over and above meditation.


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Mr. O any substance involved?


  • Mr. O
    Author
    Yin Ling When I listen to a sound... So, first of all, there's no "I" doing any listening. Just sound appearing. Further, what I used to think of as "paying attention to a sound" is more like "inviting the sound phenomenon to become more predominant." When I do that, the sound is there, but also completely unlocateable. Each instant of sound appears to be made out fizzy champagne bubbles that pop before I can actually hear them. Then, if I sit still with that experience for a little bit, the fizzy bubbles merge with fizzy bubbles of "vision" and "body sensation." They merge into a whole synesthetic field of fizziness and buzzing sensations that's neither here nor there but also everywhere.
    This same trajectory can happen from the starting point of vision or body sensation as well. It always ends up in the buzzing undifferentiated energy field.

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  • Mr. O
    Author
    Yin Ling I walk in nature every day for an hour. There's no "who" who is experiencing. Just nature happening. Birds flying, dogs barking, feelings of feet on the ground, thoughts bubbling up (lots of thoughts usually). They're all together, everywhere, but also nowhere in specific. If I invite any of those phenomena to become more predominant, they're unfindable. But, usually I'm not trying to adjust the flow of phenomena in any way. Things just bubble up, beautifully perfect, of their own accord. Even the thoughts. It's all divinely glorious and entirely ordinary. No need to attach to, change, or identify with any of it.
    Does that help?

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  • Mr. O
    Author
    Yin Ling No substances involved in any of this. I have not done any drugs or gotten drunk in 25 years.


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Mr. O yup 👍🏻
    What was ur practice to trigger these insights??
    For myself the most crucial insight is “non dual”.
    It’s as though sound is hearing itself, sight seeing itself, touch feeling itself.
    Knowingness all over.
    Mind knowing itself all around 360 degrees without a subject
    Is this clear for you ?
    Then next step is clearing the object.. like u say.. fizzy champagne, for me it’s like a hologram.
    When this matures, experience is hollow and unified without subject or object. Just mind seeing mind. Mind perceiving itself.
    That takes alot of practice esp in difficult situations.
    R u engaging with life much? Is your job a tough one? Challenging?
    How has insight help in reducing ur struggles or suffering in life?


  • Mr. O
    Author
    Yin Ling Yes, I recognize the steps of clearing the subject, then clearing the object, then both are empty, but then also for me it's been really important to re-engage, with both being empty but also full of love and bliss and joy and a sense of divinity.
    My practice cannot be a model for anyone else, and if I describe it it probably won't even make sense to anyone but me. I really don't have any idea how or why it unfolded the way it did, and it hasn't been a coherent particular method. I have had a series of mystical experiences that just happened for unknown reasons. It would be completely destabilizing at first, and I would have no idea what's going on. But the mystical experience itself would show me what to practice. Like, when the self dropped out, I investigated the lack of self. When the body dissolved into energy, I investigated the flows of energy. When the devas appeared, I investigated how to interact with them. And so forth, just following, investigating, and engaging with whatever was happening.
    Along the way, I would research spiritual stuff and practices that sounded kind of like what was happening to me, maybe take a few practice tips from that. At one point, I thought headless way was really useful, then Peter Brown, Rob Burbea's Soulmaking Dharma, a bunch of shamanism stuff, Reggie Ray, the Radiance Sutras, and ultimately also AtR. Each one was helpful for a time but not a model I fully accepted, like a path made of stepping stones and I jumped from one to the next without committing to any. My main commitment was always following closely what was being revealed in the present moment, and never settling for anything being a final resting point.
    I'm not considering the current situation to be a final resting point either, it's just that the focus seems no longer to be on investigating how perception works and etc., but rather turning toward action in society and especially helping others. In Buddhist terms, the goal of arhatship or Buddhahood holds no interest to me, but the bodhisattva ideal definitely does. I'm wondering if you all here agree that part of the shift that happens at this point in the path is dropping intensive meditation practice in favor of other kinds of practice that are more skillful means, or if you see intensive investigative meditation as continuing to be vitally important.
    All along, I have always been engaged in the world, with a family and a career. But, it's not a super strenuous job, and it normally allows me to spend a lot of time focusing on spiritual practice during the day.
    In terms of how all of this has helped with struggles, there is no more struggle. Everything is ok just as it is, filled with joy even when there's tension, filled with love even when there's pain. We had a super traumatic medical situation with one of the kids, and even though it was difficult and there was anxiety, all I could see in any of that was love.

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  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Mr. O sounds really good for you. No one path is completely similar. But I believe opening up to reality has overlapping experiences.
    I can only speak for myself and yes I do still practice 3-4 hours formal meditation a day even after having insights.. only because they allow really rapid progression and I can feel the difference between practice and lack of practice.
    Off cushion insights are actually the same as on cushion for me and they gradually becomes more and more powerful and stable overtaking the whole sense of self and sense of self drops as practice progresses. But this is because I have the formal practice which allows clear recognition post meditation.
    I supposed having a formal set of practice give me protected time to contemplate as well as familiarise, so for myself I’m keeping that up until I’m confident my whole sleep, wake, dream state is fully stable in emptiness and complete non doing. Though I think, attempting to achieve that in this lifetime is a tall order. Lol.
    Hope you get some response from others!


  • Mr. O
    Author
    Yin Ling Perhaps you can help me to better understand the goal you are expressing here: "fully stable in emptiness and complete non doing." I've heard other people in Buddhist orbits say things that are similar. For me, there's nothing stable anywhere. It's all flux and flow, bubbles and energies, a mirage-like dream. I'm not sure what's being referred to when people say they want to be "stable" in this.
    Sometimes I think people are wanting to be permanently walking around in a state of total presence. To me, that seemed like a desirable goal for a while, but then I saw that "presence" turned out to be just another form of self-consciousness or selfing.
    Sometimes I think people mean that they want to permanently be in a non-conceptual state that lies beyond thoughts. But, for me, it has never really been about stopping thoughts. Thoughts come and go as much as any other perceptual phenomena. They're not a problem, just part of the ever-changing scenery.
    I'm wondering what you mean by this? Thanks for helping me to understand this point, as it's often confused me.

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  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Mr. O it just means literally that, once a practitioner attain direct seeing of emptiness, it is a different perception altogether.
    It’s a completely non-dual sensing without a fraction of an observer in total translucent/illusory world.
    Not even a movement of a “going towards thoughts”Will arise when emptiness view stabilise as thoughts arise empty.
    Then again also, thoughts drop a lot and becomes really quiet. Only when intentionally need to think for work or necessity that we can use thoughts. That’s how I feel.

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  • Mr. O
    Author
    Yin Ling Ok, I see. Buddhism is really concerned about the dangers of thoughts, yes? I guess I don't worry so much about that. To me, thoughts are no more or less of a worry than sounds. Some are loud, some are subtle, they're always seemingly flowing, but they're never really there. They are nothing to hold on to, but nothing to run away from either. Even if they dance around in the mind for a little while, and we pay attention to thoughts instead of other phenomena, that doesn't hurt us or harm us in any way. To me, the dance of thoughts is part of the Goddess's mysterious and beautiful dance — an outpouring of energy and love bubbling up, to be celebrated and enjoyed. ☀️


  • Mr. O
    Author
    (Sorry if that doesn't make sense to Buddhist sensibilities. I'm curious about the similarities as well as the differences between our experiences, and appreciate your sharing.)


  • William Albert
    Mr. O Your descriptions seem profoundly healthy to me, and resonate with a certain misgiving I always have around Buddhism. It may just be a cultural difference or a subtle misunderstanding of intent, but to my Western-raised brain there is always something "cold" about Buddhism which seems to miss something I feel to be vitally important... The heart must be at the center of it all. Love must stand with Truth on equal footing, the radiance and the peace intertwined. I really get that from the way you describe your experience, and admire the non-dogmatic and almost "bouncy" way you have pursued your realization. It reminds me a lot of Frank Yang and his approach. Keep trusting your heart, it has not let you down so far 🙂


  • Mr. O
    Author
    William Albert Yes, I'm totally down with what you're saying about Love and Truth on equal footing. For me, though, I've always thought of it in terms of three....
    Metaphorically speaking — but perhaps energetically too — my head is immersed in the emptiness and transiency of all phenomena. From here, I see and hear the emptiness of all phenomena through the senses. My chest area, on the other hand, is all about connection. That's the location from which I am intimate with all phenomena (which I collectively call "the Goddess" so that I can engage in a love affair with all of it). Then below that, in the belly area, there's a portal to the dark depths, an underworld teeming with power animals, spirits, ancestors, and other ghostly figures. Here is where I was taught how to be fully human — I can't really explain how, but it involved being completely dismantled and put back together as a new being made of earth and sex and sunlight.
    I guess I'm saying for me it's not just about Truth and Love but also about Soul. I mean that word not as synonymous with atman, but as something deeply powerful, resonant, mysterious, beautiful, and poignant. Sorry if I'm getting carried away in the poetry of it. Rob Burbea knew about this too and talked about it frequently right before his death. He tried to build a bridge over to the Soul from Buddhism. Not sure if Buddhists will think he was successful, but I totally get what he's on about. ☀️

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Mr. O My sense of it is that you had some experience or insight on non-doership, but it is not the same as anatta realization. Do check out my article https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../different-degress...

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    The no-self you describe also may be related to impersonality, as in the first aspect in https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../four-aspects-of-i...
    In impersonality you feel that everything is divine dance
    The expression of cosmic intelligence and life
    Four Aspects of I AM
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Four Aspects of I AM
    Four Aspects of I AM

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  • Mr. O
    Author
    Soh Wei Yu thanks for sharing these. From the first article, this passage summarizes my experience well:
    “Anatta is not merely a freeing of personality sort of experience; rather, there is an insight into the complete lack of a self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation. Non-duality is thoroughly seen to be always already so: here is effortlessness in the non-dual and one realizes that in seeing there is always just scenery (no seer or even seeing besides the colors) and in hearing, always just sounds (never a hearer or even a hearing besides the sounds).”
    The second piece on impersonality does strike a chord. The difference in my case is that it’s clear to me that the divine dance is completely empty. For me, “divine dance” is a way of talking about and engaging with the impermanent, empty, nonsubstantial world of phenomena in a way that honors, loves, and takes joy in it without reifying or essentializing it. There is no source; the Goddess is just the dance of phenomena itself.

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Anatta is more than that.


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Do you have the following experience and insight:
    "What is experiential insight
    👍
    Yin Ling:
    When we say experiential insight in Buddhism,
    It means..
    A literal transformation of energetic orientation of the whole being, down to the marrow.
    The sound MUST literally hears themselves.
    No hearer.
    Clean. Clear.
    A bondage from the head here to there cut off overnight.
    Then gradually the rest of the 5 senses.
    Then one can talk about Anatta.
    So if for you,
    Does sound hear themselves?
    If no, not yet. You have to keep going! Inquire and meditate.
    You haven’t reach the basic insight requirement for the deeper insights like anatta and emptiness yet!
    Yin Ling:
    Yin Ling: “Realisation is when
    This insight goes down to the marrow and you don’t need even a minute amount of effort for sound to hear themselves.
    It is like how you live with dualistic perception now, very normal, no effort.
    Ppl with Anatta realisation live in Anatta effortlessly, without using thinking to orient. It’s their life.
    They cannot even go back to dualistic perception because that is an imputation, it js uprooted
    At first you might need to purposely orient with some effort.
    Then at one point there is no need.. further along, dreams will become Anatta too.
    That’s experiential realisation.
    There’s no realisation unless this benchmark is achieved!”
    Labels: Anatta, Yin Ling | "
    "Soh:
    what is important is that there is experiential realisation that leads
    to an energetic expansion outwards into all the forms, sounds, radiant
    universe... such that it is not that you are in here, in the body,
    looking outwards at the tree, listening the birds chirping from here
    it is just the trees are vividly swaying in and of itself, luminously
    without an observer
    the trees sees themselves
    the sounds hear itself
    there is no location from which they are experienced, no vantage point
    the energetic expansion outward into vivid manifestation, boundless, yet
    it is not an expansion from a center, there is just no center
    without such energetic shift it is not really the real experience of no
    What is experiential insight
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    What is experiential insight
    What is experiential insight

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Also I shared with someone today:
    On the radiance as forms of anatta, i wrote years ago:
    "Strong and vivid radiance..
    Even now the smell of food is standing out in intensity
    ...[sights have a] HD hypervivid quality...
    ...Actually more accurate description is magical and marvellous colors (as in the vivid 'textures' of what's called trees, sky, houses, people, streets, etc), sounds (as in the vivid 'textures' of a bird chirping, sound of traffic, etc), scents (as in the aromas of food, and plants, etc), etc. Complete perfection with a stark intensity...
    Yet feels completely natural. Without slightest sense of distance or self/Self, even the tiniest details becomes starkly clear
    This sense of perfection and magical radiance of everything is still there even when I'm physically tired and lack sleep on the previous night
    By magical what I mean is a sense that there’s something very magnificent, almost like beauty but it is not beauty vs ugly and is not at all a subjectively imposed or affective feeling of beauty, but a sense of perfection.. like I look at the fly crawling on my skin, the fly is so completely perfect, like part of the paradise (note: this is different from Thusness's usage of the term 'magical')
    Like a ball of radiance, except radiance as none other than the boundless world of forms, colors, textures and sounds, that is the very radiance, for it is the world that is the radiance and nothing else. Not a subjective radiance standing apart from forms.
    There is nothing subjectively imposed here.. when I say “sense of perfection” that is already not quite accurate as it conveys some subjectively imposed interpretation of perfection.. rather it is the world that is the perfection and each moment carries the flavor of perfection
    Perfection being merely a qualitative description of the pristine state of consciousness/radiant forms, not an affective feeling of "it is perfect" but neither is it an objective characteristic of some inherently existing object (there is neither subject nor object as subject and object is conceptual)
    But this state of consciousness is not just heightened clarity... it’s like even the trees swaying is marvelously and magically alive and life reveals its significance and meaning all around. I think this is what Richard calls “meaning of life”.
    The emotional model of AF makes some sense"
    ...
    Driving around Singapore, it feels like I am experiencing Singapore for the first time.
    ...
    …But the best thing in terms of affect so far is that the constant apperception is such a joyful, clean, pristine state of appreciating the boundless and radiant world that there isn't room for unpleasant emotions like sadness, boredom, depression, etc. There is certainly no more "Monday blues" or any kind of "blues" at all. It make sense now in my experience when Richard says his days are one perfect day after another. Even lying on bed, looking at the ceiling, the sound of the humming and background noises is joyful. Any added entertainment on top of that perfection is just another addition on top of perfection."
    ...
    This state of apperception is effortlessly and naturally present from the very moment I wake up to the moment I sleep, for example when I wake up sometimes a sound is heard and I do not even know where I am (the body is lying on the bed but the mind hasn't cognized that on the very first moment of waking up) in contrast to the bird chirping or the fan humming as there is simply no 'I' to be located anywhere, there is only everything everywhere... it is almost as if I am at the sound of the bird chirping except there is no 'I' to 'be at' or 'be one with' the sound, there is only sound. The reflection of the orange rising sun over the window in the next building shines as vivid radiance with flawless perfection... the radiant energies courses through the body, energising and vitalising my day. All these informs me that it's going to be yet another perfect day in paradise even before I open my eyes. When driving, when walking, overlooking the long stretch of road over the horizon, there is no center, no reference-point, no center-of-reference, and no circumference... the whole universe is walking, is the walking, is the driving, where the movement of legs is not done or perceived by an 'I' (there is no doer, thinker, feeler, watcher, cognizer, being/Being whatsoever, only action) and this body is walking inseparably from the entire universe, it is not the case that there is a body here and a separate universe out there in which the body moves through.
    The Magical Fairytale-like Wonderland and Paradise of this Verdant Earth Free from Affective Emotions, Reactions and Sufferings
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    The Magical Fairytale-like Wonderland and Paradise of this Verdant Earth Free from Affective Emotions, Reactions and Sufferings
    The Magical Fairytale-like Wonderland and Paradise of this Verdant Earth Free from Affective Emotions, Reactions and Sufferings

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  • Pellucid No-Self, Non-Doership
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Pellucid No-Self, Non-Doership
    Pellucid No-Self, Non-Doership

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  • Mr. O
    Author
    Soh Wei Yu Yes, there’s no “I” to be located anywhere, from waking till sleeping. It’s that way naturally and without any effort. And there is no inside/outside or here/there either. Birdsong, body sensations, thoughts, all arise in the same flow. They’re just present. Sometimes there’s a thought about “my body” or “my personality” that bubbles up, but these thoughts are also just arising in the flow. Nothing to get caught on or to identify with, and they’re not referring to anything separate from the flow itself.
    I can also relate to terms like “wonderland” and “fairytale.” This is what I meant when I said above that everything is shining with “the radiance of the goddess.” Everything is lit from within with an aura of beauty and poignancy. But also totally empty. (I like the metaphor of fizzy champagne bubbles, which are both ephemeral and also sparkling.)
    At first it was so stunningly beautiful that I was literally overwhelmed by it, however, seeing things this way has become routine and normalized for me now. My terminology is different that AtR’s, more deistic, but I believe we’re talking about the same thing.


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Mr. O The 'flow' is more of the non-doership, spontaneous aspect.
    Everything is lit from within etc is the intensity of luminosity aspect. Do note that one need not be in nondual or anatta to experience impersonality and intensity of luminosity, those are all part of the 'four aspects of I AM' that one practices even post I AM and pre-nondual: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../four-aspects-of-i...
    Had this conversation with John Tan before my anatta realization:
    Session Start: Monday, 6 September, 2010
    (9:01 PM) AEN: scott kiloby wrote an article on 'The Flow' http://www.kiloby.com/writings.php?offset=0&writingid=253
    (9:13 PM) Thusness: kiloby's article is very good
    (9:16 PM) Thusness: the article u posted in the blog by kiloby and together with this article, it fairly complete
    (9:17 PM) Thusness: u must be able to integrate the 2 articles.
    (9:17 PM) Thusness: currently u r looking at AF 'aliveness' that is only the luminosity aspect.
    (9:19 PM) Thusness: now the article u showed me has two very important points, tell me the 2.
    (9:23 PM) Thusness: many of the titles seem interesting
    (9:35 PM) AEN: it's talking about self not as something solid but as the flow, ungraspable?
    (9:36 PM) Thusness: no
    (9:36 PM) Thusness: completely out
    (9:37 PM) AEN: its saying that concepts are part of the flow, and concepts do not actually refer to something solid, and therefore thoughts aren't a problem?
    (9:38 PM) Thusness: what is the different between all previous articles and this one?
    (9:43 PM) AEN: the previous article seems to stress more on non conceptuality
    this one seems to talk about concepts as not a problem?
    im not so sure
    (9:44 PM) Thusness: just read through the articles, they are very different
    (9:44 PM) AEN: u're talking about which previous article
    (9:44 PM) Thusness: the one u posted in our blog
    (9:45 PM) AEN: oic..
    (9:47 PM) AEN: im not so sure..
    (9:48 PM) Thusness: so just rem this part
    (9:49 PM) AEN: remember what?
    (9:49 PM) Thusness: rem that there are differences between these 2 articles
    very different in fact.
    (9:51 PM) Thusness: and u r always looking for easy answers. Even if u were to think, u still face the same issue that is mentioned in kiloby's article.
    the article that u pasted in this msn.
    (9:51 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:29 PM) AEN: in the blog article, scott kiloby talks about objects as being thoughts, emotions, sensations happening in awareness
    in the article he talks about thoughts, emotions, sensations as seamless currents of an unknowable river
    Four Aspects of I AM
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Four Aspects of I AM
    Four Aspects of I AM

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    (10:30 PM) Thusness: totally out
    (10:30 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:32 PM) Thusness: the analogy is the same as the dust and the mirror i told u.
    (10:33 PM) Thusness: but he is unable to get over the idea of the mirror.
    (10:33 PM) Thusness: yet in the article of the blog, he spoke of no mirror
    (10:33 PM) AEN: ic..
    (10:33 PM) Thusness: therefore there is no clarity of the view yet
    (10:34 PM) Thusness: u can see he repeatedly talk about the current is the river
    (10:35 PM) AEN: oic.. but wats the difference between the two articles?
    (10:35 PM) Thusness: first go through all the points first
    all are very important
    (10:36 PM) Thusness: post it in the blog, i see whether i got time to go through...there are some very important points that u have to know.
    (10:37 PM) Thusness: it is also advisable to re-read these articles to have deepening insight.
    (10:40 PM) AEN: posted
    (10:41 PM) Thusness: will go through it these few days
    (10:42 PM) AEN: ic..
    (10:43 PM) Thusness: u posted twice
    (10:43 PM) AEN: yea deleted the other one
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: is AF more about the flow article, or you r left with the world?
    (11:00 PM) AEN: you are left with the world
    AF seldom mentions about the flow
    (11:00 PM) AEN: i think
    (11:02 PM) Thusness: yes
    (11:02 PM) Thusness: what is AF emphasizing?
    (11:02 PM) AEN: the universe, the physical, the actual, the intensity of luminosity
    (11:02 PM) Thusness: yes
    this experience peaks when?
    (11:03 PM) AEN: hmm
    when one experiences consciousness as just the flow?
    (11:04 PM) Thusness: no
    why u like to anyhow link hah
    (11:05 PM) AEN: 😛 the experience peaks when all sense of self/Self is being dissolved?
    (11:05 PM) Thusness: closer
    when u r left with the world
    (11:05 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:06 PM) Thusness: like what richard herman said, the zen master slaps the floor... luminosity manifested in the actuality
    (11:06 PM) AEN: ic..
    (11:07 PM) Thusness: so u know why i say AF lacks of something?
    (11:07 PM) Thusness: when no-self matures, what is lacking?
    (11:08 PM) AEN: the intensity of luminosity as the actuality of the world?
    (11:08 PM) Thusness: no
    totally out
    this is what AF is about
    how is it that u r unable to see.
    (11:09 PM) AEN: icic..
    hmm its about the insight into awareness as the flow?
    (11:09 PM) Thusness: are u seeing with ur heart or just going through motion.
    how could the AF be lack of luminosity manifesting as actuality.
    (11:10 PM) Thusness: it is expressed all over the place
    (11:10 PM) AEN: ic.. ya
    (11:10 PM) Thusness: if u truly want to know, then u have to be sincere in practice and at least have certain insight.
    (11:11 PM) Thusness: yet 'the flow' has certain misconception
    (11:12 PM) Thusness: it cannot integrate the article 'u r left with the world' with 'the river and the current'.
    go contemplate
    don't anyhow answer
    (11:13 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:19 PM) AEN: btw u saw rar jungle's post? http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../thusnesss-six...
    in the comments section
    (11:19 PM) Thusness: yeah
    (11:20 PM) Thusness: such comment is not so appropriate in the blog
    more appropriate to be in the sgforums
    (11:21 PM) AEN: oic..
    (12:38 AM) AEN: mikael says:
    *i think I have a natural disposition toward the PCE
    *i think i've had one before
    *whenever I "naturally" try to meditate.. I concentrate on the senses and try to "become" the world, ignore feelings by just seeming them as impermanent physical sensations. thoughts are usually non existent because i'm concentrating
    *i'm going to try to cultivate that
    (12:44 AM) AEN: i think i know the difference between the first and second article... the awareness is the world is like talking about the 2nd stanza of anatta with the emphasis on luminosity as the universe, then the flow is talking abuot the 1st stanza of anatta... the insubstantiality of everything as
    simply mind moments arising and passing without anything graspable whatsoever. like a thought is simply an arising bubble... but then the flow article fails to integrate the insight of awareness as simply the 'current', the universe, the sensations?
    (1:58 AM) AEN: the new article still talks about river and current as if river is something inherent even though the current is part of the river... the previous article is talking about how there is no mind/awareness, only the manifestation/current
    Session Start: Tuesday, 7 September, 2010
    (11:15 AM) Thusness: PCE is simply non-dual experience except the realization is about manifestation (coming face to face with the actual stuff, i.e, the other five entries and exits) instead of coming face to face with "I AM".
    ur answer is still no good
    (11:15 AM) Thusness: although ur answer is quite near. You must also be aware of the part on there is no way u can have any 'concepts' of the flow. But the idea or 'right view' is still not there. Not having any 'fixed idea' or 'fixed view' is still not good enough.
    Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
    Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Mr. O Did you go through I AM before?
    Also, do you relate with this:
    August 2010:
    “(11:07 PM) Thusness: for example you see AF description of insight and experience are very similar to what i described in anatta article.
    (11:11 PM) Thusness: there is no ending to this realization
    (11:42 PM) Thusness: Allow the muddy waters of mental activity to clear;
    Refrain from both positive and negative projection -
    leave appearances alone:
    The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.
    -Tilopa
    this is very good
    (11:46 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:51 PM) Thusness: ask how will what he realize thus far can lead to the insight that The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.
    ask luckystrikes
    (11:52 PM) AEN: ok posted
    (12:29 AM) AEN: Scott Kiloby: If you see that awareness is none other than everything, and that none of those things are separate "things" at all, why even use the word awareness anymore? All you are left with is the world, your life, the diversity of experience itself.
    (12:30 AM) Thusness: very good.
    (12:31 AM) Thusness: This is anatta
    (12:31 AM) AEN: oic..
    (12:32 AM) Thusness: what’s left in is the intensity of practice.
    (12:33 AM) Thusness: until there is completely without trace of awareness” (Scott Kiloby wrote more recently: https://www.kiloby.com/.../the-case-against-awareness-a...)
    The Case Against Awareness – A Little Blasphemy Goes a Long Way - Kiloby.com
    KILOBY.COM
    The Case Against Awareness – A Little Blasphemy Goes a Long Way - Kiloby.com
    The Case Against Awareness – A Little Blasphemy Goes a Long Way - Kiloby.com

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  • Mr. O
    Author
    Soh Wei Yu in John Tan’s seven stage model, I clearly can relate to having gone through 1, 4, 5, 6, and 7. I didn’t spend any time in 2 or 3. I agree with Kiloby that there is no such thing as awareness. I’d also add there’s no such thing as consciousness, mind, ground, or other reifications of what’s going on. I use field of perception, energy, flow of phenomena as terms of convenience, knowing that these are also empty not substantial essences. There actually isn’t a flow at all, since there’s no time. Just what’s happening right now, and there aren’t even really any phenomena since it is like a bubble that pops before you can apprehend it.

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Mr. O but anatta is also not just that. Do you relate to this convo between John Tan and AwakeningToReality-GPT:
    May be an image of text that says '3:12 Facebook Done Edit What anatta? Anatta the realization there never truly existing Ultimate Reality Mind, Awareness Seeing, etc, these conventions for ongoing appearance There simply seer-s seeing- seen. Anatta seeing through reified mental construct "self". main insights relates construct other direct consciousness appearances. correct. Anatta realization that no ongoing Itinvolves seeing through mental elf gaining consciousness as appearances wen merely negate reified construct "self" without then only conceptual understanding anatta. Yes, that correct. Simply negating reified self without direct consciousness only conceptual otruly anatta, consciousness mere appearances. the gain of through the direct taste More'


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Also:
    “luminosity.
    “Geovani Geo to me, to be without dual is not to subsume into one and although awareness is negated, it is not to say there is nothing.
    Negating the Awareness/Presence (Absolute) is not to let Awareness remain at the abstract level. When such transpersonal Awareness that exists only in wonderland is negated, the vivid radiance of presence are fully tasted in the transient appearances; zero gap and zero distance between presence and moment to moment of ordinary experiences and we realize separation has always only been conventional.
    Then mundane activities -- hearing, sitting, standing, seeing and sensing, become pristine and vibrant, natural and free.” – John Tan, 2020
    No Awareness Does Not Mean Non-Existence of Awareness
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    No Awareness Does Not Mean Non-Existence of Awareness
    No Awareness Does Not Mean Non-Existence of Awareness

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  • Actual Freedom and the Immediate Radiance in the Transience
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Actual Freedom and the Immediate Radiance in the Transience
    Actual Freedom and the Immediate Radiance in the Transience

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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    How was your I AM realization like for you? Experientially? Does that quality or dimension of presence in I AM remain or expand after anatta, what and how did anatta transform it?

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    also john tan wrote last year:
    André A. Pais Similar to no-self of ATR, if the pointing does not result in the direct recognition of suchness (pure appearances) free from apprehender and apprehended or recognition of appearances as one's radiance clarity, then it is not anatta proper. Which is what imo Shentong Madhyamika is trying to emphasize with affirming-negation.
    However to me, for a path that is based on reasoning and analysis, negation should be non-implicative because practitioners along the path are always dealing with a dualistic and inherent mind. If there is no dualistic and inherent mind, then there is no need for any path as there is nothing to sever. Hence, affirming-negation imo is less skillful as that would promote rather than sever the habitual tendency which is not the import of the analytical path.
    If one wants to talk about the self-arising wisdom, it should not be by way of reasoning and analysis, the padaegogy will have to be radically different. It will probably have to be like dzogchen that takes the result as path. Then emphasis should not be just non-referential ease and space-like emptiness but includes all the magic of clarity's radiance.








  • Mr. O
    Author
    Soh Wei Yu I should also clarify that I’m not looking for “authorization” that I’ve achieved what AtR calls maha or spontaneous perfection. Like I said, I’m not really thinking in Buddhist terms myself, so my descriptions may not fully match up and I’m ok with that. 🙏


  • William Albert
    Mr. O This is wonderful. Thank for you sharing. Reminds me of Adyashanti saying you must awaken in the head, heart, and gut, with the latter being in some ways the most profound. I loved Seeing That Frees tremendously, I could feel Burbea's connection to what you're talking about. Maybe it's time I explore more of his talks. Thank you 🙏


    Mr. O
    Author
    William Albert big yes to what you said about the gut being the most profound.
    But about Burbea...
    What I'm referring to isn't really in Seeing That Frees. That book is almost totally written from the head space (i.e., emptiness). I'm referring to his Soulmaking Dharma stuff. Are you familiar with it?
    If you're interested, here's a webpage https://hermesamara.org/teachings/soulmaking-dharma Check out the audios in the right hand sidebar.


  • William Albert
    Mr. O Yes, in StF it was implicit I think. Still, there's a reason I liked that book so much more than most Buddhist reading. I'm excited to explore the Soulmaking material, thank you!








  • Michael Sinclair
    It's good for the conventional body-mind, similar to going to the gym.


  • Mr. O
    Author
    Yikes, I feel like I might be overstepping by recommending Burbea and Roche in my comments. Really all I was after was what AtR says about ongoing practice. Sorry if I'm breaking protocol!


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Just posted this convo I had with someone else today on the AtR blog, may be relevant here:
    Irreversibility of Nirvana
    Mr. J asked, “ I think I’m just wondering in regard to this then like… does ignorance just happen dependent on conditions if it’s beginningless?
    Meaning “samsara” is something that the mind can sort of “fall into” depending on conditions even if it was in “nirvana” at some point, and then “samsara” before that too?”
    Soh replied,
    “ No, nirvana is not reversible. Nobody was in nirvana before samsara
    Samsara had no beginning
    See what kyle dixon wrote before:
    “One of the characteristics of nirvana (and all unconditioned dharmas) is that it is "permanent" because it is defined as a total cessation of cause for rebirth in the three realms. Since there is no possibility of cause for "re-arising" nirvana is said to be "permanent".
    As I wrote before on here:
    Buddhahood is irreversible and permanent. Nirvāṇa is the total exhaustion of one's ignorance regarding the nature of phenomena, and for that reason nirvāṇa is described as a cessation. What ceases is the cause for the further arising and proliferation of delusion regarding the nature of phenomena, which is precisely the cessation of cause for the arising of the cyclical round of rebirth in the three realms we call "saṃsāra."
    For this reason, nirvāṇa is said to be 'permanent', because due to the exhaustion of cause for the further proliferation of saṃsāra, saṃsāra no longer has any way to arise.
    Tsele Natsok Rangdrol:
    You might ask, 'Why wouldn't confusion reoccur as before, after... [liberation has occured]?" This is because no basis [foundation] exists for its re-arising. Samantabhadra's liberation into the basis [wisdom] itself and the yogi liberated through practicing the path are both devoid of any basis [foundation] for reverting back to becoming a cause, just like a person who has recovered from a plague or the fruit of the se tree.
    He then states that the se tree is a particular tree which is poisonous to touch, causing blisters and swelling. However once recovered, one is then immune.
    Lopon Tenzin Namdak also explains this principle of immunity:
    Anyone who follows the teachings of the Buddhas will most likely attain results and purify negative karmic causes. Then that person will be like a man who has caught smallpox in the past; he will never catch it again because he is immune. The sickness of samsara will never come back. And this is the purpose of following the teachings.
    and from Lopon Kunga Namdrol:
    Buddhahood is a subtractive process; it means removing, gradually, obscurations of affliction and obscurations of knowledge. Since wisdom burns these obscurations away, in the end they have no causes for returning; and further, the causes for buddhahood are permanent leading to a permanent result.”
    ………
    Yes and you remove afflictions and ignorance that causes cyclic rebirth through wisdom
    "The process of eradicating avidyā (ignorance) is conceived… not as a mere stopping of thought, but as the active realization of the opposite of what ignorance misconceives. Avidyā is not a mere absence of knowledge, but a specific misconception, and it must be removed by realization of its opposite. In this vein, Tsongkhapa says that one cannot get rid of the misconception of 'inherent existence' merely by stopping conceptuality any more than one can get rid of the idea that there is a demon in a darkened cave merely by trying not to think about it. Just as one must hold a lamp and see that there is no demon there, so the illumination of wisdom is needed to clear away the darkness of ignorance."
    Napper, Elizabeth, 2003, p. 103"
    Nirvana is the permanent ending of ignorance and other mental afflictions that comes with it
    Mr J: “ And then it’s like keeping up with the wisdom and skillful means like you’re at the gym or practicing guitar to maintain it, hence the effort part”
    Soh:
    “ You practice the path of wisdom and meditation until all traces of the two obscurations are absolutely exhausted. At which point you are a Buddha, which none of us here are (we are still very much on the path despite insights and all those I have witnessed that claims to be Buddha are seriously deluded individuals) and you do not need to practice to maintain or improve anything.
    And even the Buddha spends months in forest retreats practicing anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing) meditation every year, he still meditates everyday and so on because he explained it is a pleasant abiding and he is compassionate for future generations (setting a good example for them).
    Until then, we need to continue practicing diligently to progress along the path to Buddhahood.


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    See Jamgon Mipham’s explanations:
    "PATHS TO ENLIGHTENMENT
    What follows is a short explanation of the way Mipam presents the structure of the Buddhist path to awakening. According to him, we can only go so far in the Lesser Vehicle, realizing the lack of a personal self based on its path, but without the Great Vehicle, we will not come to fully realize the lack of self (that is, emptiness) with respect to all phenomena. In other words, those in the Lesser Vehicle realize only part of emptiness (the lack of a personal self) but do not realize the entire scope of emptiness. They hang on to an ultimate foundation of reality (the fundamental elements of reality, or dharmas), whereas there is actually no such foundation. Therefore, according to Mipam, one cannot become a buddha based solely on the Lesser Vehicle path; becoming a buddha is the result of the Great Vehicle. Nevertheless, realizing the lack of a personal self is enough to free us from samsara, because in doing so, we relinquish the obscurations of the afflictive emotions. The afflictive emotions can be included within the “three poisons” of attachment, aversion, and delusion.
    These afflictive obscurations function to prevent liberation, and they are tied in with the apprehension of a personal self. Based on the notion of such a self, we become attached (to me and mine) and averse (to what is other). This notion of self keeps the wheel of samsara rolling, because it perpetuates the distorted framework through which we selfishly act out attachment and aversion, thus sowing the seeds of suffering. Afflictive obscurations have two aspects: a gross, imputed aspect and a more subtle, innate aspect. According to Mipam, the imputed aspects are relinquished on the first “ground” (Tib. sa, Skt. bhūmi) when you directly perceive the suchness of reality. This experiential realization is called “the path of seeing.”
    The imputed aspects of the afflictive obscurations are learned and not inborn like the innate aspects. Imputed aspects involve distortions that are explicitly conceptual, as opposed to the perceptual distortions that comprise the innate aspects. The difference between the imputed and innate aspects can be understood as something like the difference between software and hardware: the innate aspects are embedded more deeply in one’s mind-stream and are thus more difficult to eliminate. Imputed ego-clinging refers to imputing qualities to the self that are not there—namely, apprehending the self as a singular, permanent, and independent entity. This is overcome on the first bodhisattva ground in a direct, nonconceptual experience of reality that is the culminating insight of analysis. Nevertheless, the more subtle, innate aspect of ego-clinging hangs on.
    The innate ego-clinging, as the bare sense of self that is imputed on the basis of the five aggregates, is more difficult to remove. Rather than construing qualities to the self such as singularity or permanence, it is a more subtle feeling of simply “I am” when, for instance, we wake up in the morning. This innate sense of self is a deeply rooted, instinctual habit. It thus involves more than just imputed identity; it is a deeper experiential orientation of distorted subjectivity. Although analysis into the nature of the self paves the way for it to be overcome, it cannot fall away by analysis alone. Rather, it has to be relinquished through cultivating the path of meditation. According to Mipam, there are no innate aspects of the afflictive obscurations left on the eighth ground. However, the afflictive emotions are only one of two types of obscurations, the other being cognitive obscurations.
    Cognitive obscurations are nothing less than conceptuality: the threefold conceptualization of agent, object, and action. Conceptuality is tied in to apprehending a self of phenomena, which includes mistaking phenomena as real, objectifying phenomena, and simply perceiving dualistically. Such conceptualization serves to obstruct omniscience. Based on the Great Vehicle, these cognitive obscurations can be completely relinquished; thereby, the result of the Great Vehicle path culminates in not merely escaping samsara, as in the Lesser Vehicle, but in becoming an omniscient buddha. According to Mipam, up to the seventh ground, the realization (of the twofold selflessness) and abandonment (of the twofold obscurations) are the same in the Great and Lesser Vehicles.
    As with the Great Vehicle, he maintains that accomplishing the path of the Lesser Vehicle entails the realization of the selflessness of phenomena, to see that phenomena are empty. Those who accomplish the Lesser Vehicle path also realize the selflessness of phenomena, because their realization of emptiness with respect to a person is one instance of realizing the emptiness of phenomena. The final realization of the Lesser Vehicle path, however, is incomplete. Mipam compares it to taking a small gulp of the water of the ocean: we can say that those who realize emptiness in the Lesser Vehicle have drunk the water of the ocean, just not all of it.150 The final realization of the bodhisattva’s path in the Great Vehicle, however, is the full realization of emptiness, like drinking the entire ocean.
    - Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings"
    Labels: Nirvana |


    Anna Mukherjee
    Soh Wei Yu Sorry , I've been peeking on this conversation. Could you please clarify something that seems contrary for me?
    In the below quote
    Thusness/John Tan seems to be reffering to post anatta practice:
    "After this insight, one must also be clear of the way of anatta and the path of practice. (...)
    It does not mean because there is no-self, there is nothing to practice; rather it is because there is no self, there is only ignorance and the chain of afflicted activities. Practice therefore is about overcoming ignorance and these chain of afflictive activities. There is no agent but there is attention. Therefore practice is about wisdom, vipassana, mindfulness and concentration. If there is no mastery over these practices, there is no liberation. (...)
    However based on Jamgon Mipham’s explanations, it seems that it is enough to realise anatta to cut off all ignorance and the chain of afflicted activities?
    "PATHS TO ENLIGHTENMENT
    Nevertheless, realizing the lack of a personal self is enough to free us from samsara, because in doing so, we relinquish the obscurations of the afflictive emotions. The afflictive emotions can be included within the “three poisons” of attachment, aversion, and delusion.
    John Tan's quote makes much more sense to me, but perhaps I'm missing something from Mipham’s explanation 🤔


    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Anna Mukherjee You misunderstood. Realizing anatta is only stream entry ( https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20 ) or 1st bhumi (Mahayana stream entry) instead. For 1st bhumi it is the realization of twofold emptiness.
    John Tan wrote the 7 stages back in 2006 (updated in 2009). He realised both anatta and twofold emptiness for decades, two decades. But he made tremendous progress since, and even last year had further breakthroughs which he attributed to his 3-4 hours of meditation per day (or more). This is consistent with what Jamgon Mipham (and all other Buddhist masters starting from Buddha) have said, the deeper obscurations/afflictions require the path of meditation to overcome.
    r/streamentry on Reddit: [insight] [buddhism] A reconsideration of the meaning of "Stream-Entry" considering the data points of both pragmatic Dharma and traditional Buddhism
    REDDIT.COM
    r/streamentry on Reddit: [insight] [buddhism] A reconsideration of the meaning of "Stream-Entry" considering the data points of both pragmatic Dharma and traditional Buddhism
    r/streamentry on Reddit: [insight] [buddhism] A reconsideration of the meaning of "Stream-Entry" considering the data points of both pragmatic Dharma and traditional Buddhism

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    1st bhumi (emptiness realization) is not the end. There are 10, or 13, or 16 bhumis (depending on which tradition and scheme) to Buddhahood. Many stages.

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    " Nevertheless, realizing the lack of a personal self is enough to free us from samsara, because in doing so, we relinquish the obscurations of the afflictive emotions. The afflictive emotions can be included within the “three poisons” of attachment, aversion, and delusion." -- do read carefully, although the realization of emptiness (twofold emptiness: emptiness of self/Self and emptiness of all phenomena) is present in 1st bhumi, the emptiness of a self is only fully actualized totally to obliterate all afflictions at the 8th bhumi. This is explained in Jamgon Mipham's text above but perhaps not elucidated very clearly.
    At this point of the 8th bhumi you are also similar to a sravaka arahat in terms of overcoming all afflictions and cutting off cyclic rebirth (there may be some other differences between them but I digress). But a Bodhisattva proceeds on to put an end to the second obscuration through the full actualization of the emptiness of all phenomena (as opposed to merely emptiness of personal self), the cognitive/knowledge obscurations that blocks the omniscience of Buddhahood. This is accomplished at the point of Buddhahood.
    Two obscurations - Rigpa Wiki
    RIGPAWIKI.ORG
    Two obscurations - Rigpa Wiki
    Two obscurations - Rigpa Wiki

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Anna Mukherjee 1st bhumi realization is this, according to Mipham:
    "Then, at the time of the supreme quality on the path of joining, one realizes that since the perceived does not exist, neither does the perceiver. Right after this, the truth of suchness, which is free from dualistic fixation, is directly realized. This is said to be the attainment of the first ground."
    Jamgom Mipham Rinpoche


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    At which point, you put an end to the first three fetters (similar to Sravaka stream enterer), view of a self, skeptical doubts, attachment to rites and rituals. And you cut off the possibility of rebirth in the lower realms and can henceforth only be reborn in human or deva realms.
    Mipham: "The Bodhisattvas on this ground have a direct realization of the nonexistence of the self. This enables them to abandon the three fetters: the view of the transitory composite, the belief in the superiority of their ethical discipline, and doubt—together with all the obscurations eliminated on the path of seeing..... ....Birth in the lower realms is no longer possible It is said that when Bodhisattvas reach the first ground, all paths whereby they might fall into the lower realms are closed."
















  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    John Tan and Yin Ling still sits 3 to 4 hours or more everyday. Both attributes great progress even after realization to their meditation practice. If meditation were not important, Bodhidharma would not have sat 9 years facing the wall even after being an awakened patriarch, and so on as Dogen pointed out:
    FUKANZAZENGI
    by Eihei Dogen
    The Way is basically perfect and all-pervading. How could it be contingent upon practice
    and realization? The Dharma-vehicle is free and untrammelled. What need is there for
    concentrated effort? Indeed, the whole body is far beyond the world's dust. Who could
    believe in a means to brush it clean? It is never apart from one, right where one is. What
    is the use of going off here and there to practice?
    And yet, if there is the slightest discrepancy, the Way is as distant as heaven from earth.
    If the least like or dislike arises, the Mind is lost in confusion. Suppose one gains pride of
    understanding and inflates one's own enlightenment, glimpsing the wisdom that runs
    through all things, attaining the Way and clarifying the Mind, raising an aspiration to
    escalade the very sky. One is making the initial, partial excursions about the frontiers but
    is still somewhat deficient in the vital Way of total emancipation.
    Need I mention the Buddha, who was possessed of inborn knowledge? The influence of
    his six years of upright sitting is noticeable still. Or Bodhidharma's transmission of the
    mind-seal?--the fame of his nine years of wall-sitting is celebrated to this day. Since this
    was the case with the saints of old, how can we today dispense with negotiation of the
    Way?
    You should therefore cease from practice based on intellectual understanding, pursuing
    words and following after speech, and learn the backward step that turns your light
    inwardly to illuminate your self. Body and mind of themselves will drop away, and your
    original face will be manifest. If you want to attain suchness, you should practice
    suchness without delay.
    For sanzen (zazen), a quiet room is suitable. Eat and drink moderately. Cast aside all
    involvements and cease all affairs. Do not think good or bad. Do not administer pros and
    cons. Cease all the movements of the conscious mind, the gauging of all thoughts and
    views. Have no designs on becoming a Buddha. Sanzen has nothing whatever to do with
    sitting or lying down.
    At the site of your regular sitting, spread out thick matting and place a cushion above it.
    Sit either in the full-lotus or half-lotus position. In the full-lotus position, you first place
    your right foot on your left thigh and your left foot on your right thigh. In the half-lotus,
    you simply press your left foot against your right thigh. You should have your robes and
    belt loosely bound and arranged in order. Then place your right hand on your left leg and
    your left palm (facing upwards) on your right palm, thumb-tips touching. Thus sit upright
    in correct bodily posture, neither inclining to the left nor to the right, neither leaning
    forward nor backward. Be sure your ears are on a plane with your shoulders and your
    nose in line with your navel. Place your tongue against the front roof of your mouth, with
    teeth and lips both shut. Your eyes should always remain open, and you should breathe
    gently through your nose.
    Once you have adjusted your posture, take a deep breath, inhale and exhale, rock your
    body right and left and settle into a steady, immobile sitting position. Think not-thinking.
    How do you think not-thinking? Non-thinking. This in itself is the essential art of zazen.
    The zazen I speak of is not learning meditation. It is simply the Dharma gate of repose
    and bliss, the practice-realization of totally culminated enlightenment. It is the
    manifestation of ultimate reality. Traps and snares can never reach it. Once its heart is
    grasped, you are like the dragon when he gains the water, like the tiger when she enters
    the mountain. For you must know that just there (in zazen) the right Dharma is
    manifesting itself and that, from the first, dullness and distraction are struck aside.
    When you arise from sitting, move slowly and quietly, calmly and deliberately. Do not
    rise suddenly or abruptly. In surveying the past, we find that transcendence of both
    unenlightenment and enlightenment, and dying while either sitting or standing, have all
    depended entirely on the strength (of zazen).
    In addition, the bringing about of enlightenment by the opportunity provided by a finger,
    a banner, a needle, or a mallet, and the effecting of realization with the aid of a hossu, a
    fist, a staff, or a shout, cannot be fully understood by discriminative thinking. Indeed, it
    cannot be fully known by the practicing or realizing of supernatural powers, either. It
    must be deportment beyond hearing and seeing--is it not a principle that is prior to
    knowledge and perceptions?
    This being the case, intelligence or lack of it does not matter: between the dull and the
    sharp-witted there is no distinction. If you concentrate your effort single-mindedly, that in
    itself is negotiating the Way. Practice-realization is naturally undefiled. Going forward
    (in practice) is a matter of everydayness.
    In general, this world, and other worlds as well, both in India and China, equally hold the
    Buddha-seal, and over all prevails the character of this school, which is simply devotion
    to sitting, total engagement in immobile sitting. Although it is said that there are as many
    minds as there are persons, still they all negotiate the way solely in zazen. Why leave
    behind the seat that exists in your home and go aimlessly off to the dusty realms of other
    lands? If you make one misstep, you go astray from the Way directly before you.
    You have gained the pivotal opportunity of human form. Do not use your time in vain.
    You are maintaining the essential working of the Buddha-Way. Who would take wasteful
    delight in the spark from the flintstone? Besides, form and substance are like the dew on
    the grass, destiny like the dart of lightning--emptied in an instant, vanished in a flash.
    Please, honored followers of Zen, long accustomed to groping for the elephant, do not be
    suspicious of the true dragon. Devote your energies to a way that directly indicates the
    absolute. Revere the person of complete attainment who is beyond all human agency.
    Gain accord with the enlightenment of the buddhas; succeed to the legitimate lineage of
    the ancestors' samadhi. Constantly perform in such a manner and you are assured of
    being a person such as they. Your treasure-store will open of itself, and you will use it at
    will.


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Thusness/John Tan wrote many years ago:
    "After this insight, one must also be clear of the way of anatta and the path of practice. Many wrongly conclude that because there is no-self, there is nothing to do and nothing to practice. This is precisely using "self view" to understand "anatta" despite having the insight.
    It does not mean because there is no-self, there is nothing to practice; rather it is because there is no self, there is only ignorance and the chain of afflicted activities. Practice therefore is about overcoming ignorance and these chain of afflictive activities. There is no agent but there is attention. Therefore practice is about wisdom, vipassana, mindfulness and concentration. If there is no mastery over these practices, there is no liberation. So one should not bullshit and psycho ourselves into the wrong path of no-practice and waste the invaluable insight of anatta. That said, there is the passive mode of practice of choiceless awareness, but one should not misunderstand it as the "default way" and such practice can hardly be considered "mastery" of anything, much less liberation."
    In 2013, Thusness said, "Anapanasati is good. After your insight [into anatta], master a form of technique that can bring you to that the state of anatta without going through a thought process." and on choiceless awareness Thusness further commented, "Nothing wrong with choice. Only problem is choice + awareness. It is that subtle thought, the thought that misapprehend (Soh: falsely imputes/fabricates) the additional "agent"."
    “A state of freedom is always a natural state, that is a state of mind free from self/Self. You should familiarize yourself with the taste first. Like doing breathing meditation until there is no-self and left with the inhaling and exhaling... then understand what is meant by releasing.”

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    Mr. O
    Author
    Soh Wei Yu thanks for sharing. I’m a bit confused by these comments of John Tan’s. It sounds like he’s saying that anatta is a special state of mind one is trying to provoke or maintain through certain practices, but I know from other writings that that’s not his position.
    More generally, when anatta is a “seal” (to borrow your terminology) that’s seen everywhere, then what’s so special about seeing it with your eyes closed sitting on a cushion? Why not just take a walk outdoors or wash the dishes?
    Also, can you say more about his critique of choiceless awareness? Something like that has been my primary sitting practice for years now.
    Thank you for your time 🙏


    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Mr. O His critique is that just practicing 'choiceless awareness' you are not in any way close to perfecting shamatha-vipashyana. For example, you can have a lot of wandering thoughts, then you 'choicelessly aware' of those wandering thoughts, but that doesn't mean you are closer to improving on your shamatha, let alone mastering it, let alone joining shamatha and vipashyana and so on.
    Better to practice a skillful means that helps you train your concentration, one-pointedness, mindfulness, insight, tranquility, all the seven factors of enlightenment and so on. For example, mindfulness of breathing.
    Many people think mindfulness of breathing is just some basic/elementary technique, 'not advanced', 'just for beginners', 'just basic shamatha' and so on. They are wrong on all counts.
    It is only shamatha without vipashyana if one has not arisen the insights of vipashyana, such as into anatta and twofold emptiness. Anapanasati can become the shamatha-vipashyana conjoined, as expressed by Shunryu Suzuki here:
    “When we practice zazen our mind always follows our breathing. When we inhale, the air comes into the inner world. When we exhale, the air goes out to the outer world. The inner world is limitless, and the outer world is also limitless. We say “inner world” or “outer world,” but actually there is just one whole world. In this limitless world, our throat is like a swinging door. The air comes in and goes out like someone passing through a swinging door. If you think, “I breathe,” the “I” is extra. There is no you to say “I.” What we call “I” is just a swinging door which moves when we inhale and when we exhale. It just moves; that is all. When your mind is pure and calm enough to follow this movement, there is nothing: no “I,” no world, no mind nor body; just a swinging door.”
    Quotes of Shunryu Suzuki
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Quotes of Shunryu Suzuki
    Quotes of Shunryu Suzuki

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Mr. O anapanasati or mindfulness of breathing is the buddha’s practice everyday and on all retreats even after liberation:
    Anapanasati.
    Buddha said:
    On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Icchānaṅgala in the Icchānaṅgala Wood. There the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus thus:
    “Bhikkhus, I wish to go into seclusion for three months. I should not be approached by anyone except the one who brings me almsfood.”
    “Yes, venerable sir,” those bhikkhus replied, and no one approached the Blessed One except the one who brought him almsfood.
    Then, when those three months had passed, the Blessed One emerged from seclusion and addressed the bhikkhus thus:
    “Bhikkhus, if wanderers of other sects ask you: ‘In what dwelling, friends, did the Blessed One generally dwell during the rains residence?’—being asked thus, you should answer those wanderers thus: ‘During the rains residence, friends, the Blessed One generally dwelt in the concentration by mindfulness of breathing.’“
    Here, bhikkhus, mindful I breathe in, mindful I breathe out. When breathing in long I know: ‘I breathe in long’; when breathing out long I know: ‘I breathe out long.’ When breathing in short I know: ‘I breathe in short’; when breathing out short I know: ‘I breathe out short.’ I know: ‘Experiencing the whole body I will breathe in.’… I know: ‘Contemplating relinquishment, I will breathe out.’
    “If anyone, bhikkhus, speaking rightly could say of anything: ‘It is a noble dwelling, a divine dwelling, the Tathāgata’s dwelling,’ it is of concentration by mindfulness of breathing that one could rightly say this.“
    Bhikkhus, those bhikkhus who are trainees, who have not attained their mind’s ideal, who dwell aspiring for the unsurpassed security from bondage: for them concentration by mindfulness of breathing, when developed and cultivated, leads to the destruction of the taints. Those bhikkhus who are arahants, whose taints are destroyed, who have lived the holy life, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, reached their own goal, utterly destroyed the fetters of existence, those completely liberated through final knowledge: for them concentration by mindfulness of breathing, when developed and cultivated, leads to a pleasant dwelling in this very life and to mindfulness and clear comprehension.
    “If anyone, bhikkhus, speaking rightly could say of anything: ‘It is a noble dwelling, a divine dwelling, the Tathāgata’s dwelling,’ it is of concentration by mindfulness of breathing that one could rightly say this.”
    SN 54:11  Icchānaṅgala Sutta | At Icchānaṅgala
    DHAMMATALKS.ORG
    SN 54:11  Icchānaṅgala Sutta | At Icchānaṅgala
    SN 54:11  Icchānaṅgala Sutta | At Icchānaṅgala

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Mr. O As john tan said before,
    “U need stability
    When u sit, start from overcoming body then to stillness then to pervasiveness of radiance.
    Master a skill, don't always think of "highest", non-meditation...in actually case, still far from it.”
    “U can meditate everywhere in all activities, meditation of non-dual is not restricted to sitting post anatta, this should be a moment to moment event for u. It is not about anatta insight, u need to complement what u lack for sitting meditation, equanimity is what u need to improve, don't waste too much time on FB activities. Also do exercises, don't get energy imbalances.”


  • Mr. O
    Author
    Soh Wei Yu this is great. I love the Suzuki quote. I’ve never seriously tried this kind of meditation. But of course I’ve heard about it quite a bit. 🙏








  • Dhruval Patel
    I stopped practicing Vipassana years ago, I don’t see why you need to keep doing a practice that is no longer benefiting you.
    Can replace it with a more beneficial practice.
    With regards to Vipassana / insight there is no backsliding, one you see it, it more or less cannot be unseen afaik.
    The other practices I cannot comment on.


  • Sim Pern Chong
    Admin
    When you were meditating, can you uncontrively enter into a thoughtless space.. that reveals a brightness even when there is no one?


    Mr. O
    Author
    Sim Pern Chong I don’t have any special skill at concentration, jhana, or samadhi. Both on and off the cushion, thoughts and perceptions (sights, sounds, body sensations, etc) bubble up constantly. There are always gaps in-between the arisings that I might characterize as “thoughtless” spaces, but it’s nothing that’s stable.
    Frequently, the thoughts and perceptions swirl together into an undifferentiated static like snow on an old TV, and here thinking is impossible. Maybe that’s a thoughtless space too?
    Then, occasionally it’s like a fog lifts and everything is crystal clear and quiet for a little while, but that’s never something that I am consciously trying to do. My main practice is open awareness, letting whatever happens just happen, so I’m never trying to control my experience.
    Like I said somewhere else in the thread, I’m not really worried about thoughts or trying to get rid of them. They just spontaneously arise and then pass through without leaving a trace, just like sounds or any other sensations/perceptions.


  • Sim Pern Chong
    Admin
    Then you still need to do formal sitting meditation.
    IMO, the insight and the 'retraining' is what allow the unconcontriveness leading to a no/few thought meditation.. and the 'space' through non-grasping will reveal the Brightness.


    Mr. O
    Author
    Sim Pern Chong can you say a bit more about this? I’m not so steeped in Buddhism, so these may be very basic questions, but what kind of meditation are you referring to here? And also, why is non-thought so important to attain? I would think that the most “uncontrived” practice would be just letting everything be spontaneously perfect just as it is.
    Thank you for entertaining these basic questions! 🙏


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Mr. O "...The anatta definitely severed many emotional afflictions, for the most part I don't have negative emotions anymore. And either the anatta or the strict shamatha training has resulted in stable shamatha where thoughts have little effect and are diminished by the force of clarity. I'm also able to control them, stopping them for any amount of desired time etc. But I understand that isn't what is important. Can I fully open to whatever arises I would say yes. I understand that every instance of experience is fully appearing to itself as the radiance of clarity, yet timelessly disjointed and unsubstantiated.." - Kyle Dixon, 2013
    “The conditions for this subtle identification are not undone until anatta is realized.
    Anatta realization is like a massive release of prolonged tension, this is how John put it once at least. Like a tight fist, that has been tight for lifetimes, is suddenly relaxed. There is a great deal of power in the event. The nature of this realization is not often described in traditional settings, I have seen Traga Rinpoche discuss it. Jñāna is very bright and beautiful. That brightness is traditionally the “force” that “burns” the kleśas.
    The reservoir of traces and karmic imprints is suddenly purged by this wonderful, violent brightness. After this occurs negative emotions are subdued and for the most part do not manifest anymore. Although this is contingent upon the length of time one maintains that equipoise.” - Kyle Dixon, 2019
    “Prajñā “burns” karma, only when in awakened equipoise. Regular meditation does not.” - Kyle Dixon, 2021


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Mr. O In Tandem
    Yuganaddha Sutta (AN 4:170)
    NavigationSuttas/AN/4:170
    On one occasion Ven. Ānanda was staying in Kosambī at Ghosita’s monastery. There he addressed the monks, “Friends!”
    “Yes, friend,” the monks responded to him.
    Ven. Ānanda said: “Friends, whoever—monk or nun—declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four?
    “There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquility. As he develops insight preceded by tranquility, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it—his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
    “Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquility preceded by insight. As he develops tranquility preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it—his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
    “Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquility in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquility in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it—his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
    “Then there is the case where a monk’s mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it—his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
    “Whoever—monk or nun—declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths.”
    See also: MN 149; SN 35:204; AN 2:29; AN 4:94; AN 10:71


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    As i shared with someone:
    It is also important that one does not fall into the neo advaita confusion that meditation and samadhi is unimportant
    It is important, just not contrived
    As krodha/kyle dixon said:
    "Nice explanation. Meido Moore, who is a Rinzai Zen master says the same, he writes:
    'From a practice standpoint, the crucial point is contained in the words, "one should just constantly activate correct views in one’s own mind." This has nothing to do with theoretical certainty that defilements are empty and do not bind; it refers to the seamless, sustained upwelling of the unity of samadhi/prajna. Departing from but then returning to this, again and again, describes the post-awakening practice to dissolve jikke.
    If one experiences departure from this samadhi, even for a moment, the path is not completed at all. If one does not know what is actually meant by that samadhi, then even with kensho the path is still barely begun in terms of actualization.'
    This process, dovetailing the “sudden” and “gradual” is identical for Dzogchen and Mahāmudrā as well." - Kyle Dixon, 2021
    “Only Buddhas rest in prajñā at all times, because they rest in “samati” which is an unfragmented samādhi which directly cognizes the nature of phenomena at all times.
    The rest of us do our best to cultivate concentration, dhyāna, which then will lead to samādhi, and after time we will awaken to have the awakened equipoise which comes about due to our samādhi being infused with prajñā. However due to latent obscurations that awakened equipoise will be unstable and our prajñā will be fragmented. The more we access awakened equipoise however, the more karma in the form of kleśa and vāsanā will be burned away, and as a result, the more obscurations will be removed and diminished. The path is precisely eliminating those obscurations, the afflictive obscuration that conceives of a self and the cognitive obscuration that conceives of external objects. Buddhas have completely eliminated these two obscurations and as a result their samādhi is samati, a transcendent state of awakened equipoise beyond the three times.” – Kyle Dixon, 2021


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith on importance of meditation:
    Malcolm (Loppon Namdrol) wrote:
    Rongzom makes the point very clearly that Dzogchen practitioners must develop the mental factors that characterize the first dhyana, vitarka, vicara, pritvi, sukha and ekagraha, i.e. applied attention, sustained attention, physical ease, mental ease and one-pointedness. If you do not have a stable samatha practice, you can't really call yourself a Dzogchen practitioner at all. At best, you can call yourself someone who would like to be a Dzogchen practitioner a ma rdzogs chen pa. People who think that Dzogchen frees one from the need to meditate seriously are seriously deluded. The sgra thal 'gyur clearly says:
    The faults of not meditating are:
    the characteristics of samsara appear to one,
    there is self and other, object and consciousness,
    the view is verbal,
    the field is perceptual,
    one is bound by afflictions,
    also one throws away the path of the buddhahood,
    one does not understand the nature of the result,
    a basis for the sameness of all phenomena does not exist,
    one's vidya is bound by the three realms,
    and one will fall into conceptuality
    He also added:
    Dhyanas are defined by the presence or absence of specific mental factors.
    The Dhyanas were not the vehicle of Buddha's awakening, rather he coursed through them in order to remove traces of rebirth associated with the form and formless realms associated with the dhyanas.
    ...
    Samadhi/dhyāna is a natural mental factor, we all have it. The problem is that we naturally allow this mental factor to rest on afflictive objects such as HBO, books, video games, etc.
    Śamatha practice is the discipline of harnessing our natural predisposition for concentration, and shifting it from afflictive conditioned phenomena to nonafflictive conditioned phenomena, i.e., the phenomena of the path. We do this in order to create a well tilled field for the growth of vipaśyāna. Śamatha ultimately allows us to have mental stability and suppresses afflictive mental factors so that we may eventually give rise to authentic insight into the nature of reality. While it is possible to have vipaśyāna without cultivating śamatha, it is typically quite unstable and lacks the power to effectively eradicate afflictive patterning from our minds. Therefore, the basis of all practice in Buddhadharma, from Abhidharma to the Great Perfection, is the cultivation of śamatha as a preliminary practice for germination of vipaśyāna.
    ...
    In the early period of Budddhism, there were two yānas, śamatha yāna and vipaśyāna yāna; beginners went to Śariputra to training in vipaśyāna for stream entry; then they would go train in śamatha with Maudgalyana for further progress.
    Lance Cousins wrote a very interesting article about this.
    Dzogchen, Meditation and Jhana
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Dzogchen, Meditation and Jhana
    Dzogchen, Meditation and Jhana

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    • Chappell Isom
      Soh Wei Yu do you have any pointers for second path realization/dealing with the fetters of craving and aversion?


    • Soh Wei Yu
      Admin
      Chappell Isom It's late here and I'm going to do some meditation and rest.
      But first of all, before speaking about the further paths which I can perhaps another day, John Tan, Yin Ling, myself, and most other members and admins I know, do not agree with either 1) Daniel Ingram's definition of stream entry and 4 paths, which defines stream entry as a fruitional blackout cessation, third path/anagami as nondual, fourth path/arahantship as anatta, nor, 2) kevin schanilec's teachings, which mixes fetter model with 'overcoming layers of duality and self', which goes like this: stream entry is impersonality, anagami is roughly nondual and arahantship is just anatta.
      In both models, their arahantship is simply AtR's anatta realization, aka Thusness Stage 5, etc. To us, impersonality and nondual does not even reach the sutta's stream entry (and I have read thousands of pages of the pali canon suttas so I am very clear that stream entry actually refers to the anatman realization and the end of self view includes all substantialist nondual views as well as being an eternal witness and so forth, therefore anything short of anatman realization will not meet the criteria of ending the self view which is achieved by a stream entrant).
      See my article: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../different-degress... -- Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
      What some of those teachers I mentioned, that calls "arahantship" is simply what we here consider to be "stream entry", and I say this with certainty backed by the scriptures and what the realized Buddhist masters taught.
      I apologize if I have told you this before, as I speak to too many people and lose track of who and what I spoke to/spoke with and spoke on.

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      Admin
      Also, not going to write anything more as its late, but will paste some excerpts from Kyle Dixon because I can relate:
      "...The anatta definitely severed many emotional afflictions, for the
      most part I don't have negative emotions anymore. And either the anatta
      or the strict shamatha training has resulted in stable shamatha where
      thoughts have little effect and are diminished by the force of clarity. I'm also able to control them, stopping them for
      any amount of desired time etc. But I understand that isn't what is
      important. Can I fully open to whatever arises I would say yes. I
      understand that every instance of experience is fully appearing to
      itself as the radiance of clarity, yet timelessly disjointed and
      unsubstantiated.." - Kyle Dixon, 2013
      “The conditions for this subtle identification are not undone until anatta is realized.
      Anatta
      realization is like a massive release of prolonged tension, this is how
      John put it once at least. Like a tight fist, that has been tight for
      lifetimes, is suddenly relaxed. There is a great deal of power in the
      event. The nature of this realization is not often described in
      traditional settings, I have seen Traga Rinpoche discuss it. Jñāna is
      very bright and beautiful. That brightness is traditionally the “force”
      that “burns” the kleśas.
      The
      reservoir of traces and karmic imprints is suddenly purged by this
      wonderful, violent brightness. After this occurs negative emotions are
      subdued and for the most part do not manifest anymore. Although this is
      contingent upon the length of time one maintains that equipoise.” - Kyle
      Dixon, 2019
      “Prajñā “burns” karma, only when in awakened equipoise. Regular meditation does not.” - Kyle Dixon, 2021


    • Advice from Kyle Dixon
      AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
      Advice from Kyle Dixon
      Advice from Kyle Dixon

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      Admin
      Can you also tell us more about yourself, what are your progress and breakthroughs so far or insights etc.

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  • Sim Pern Chong
    Admin
    Mr. O the no thought is not the main point...as it can be achieved by one-point concentration as well. The 'no /very few thought' here is an indication of the stability of no-self insight.. As for the brightness...it can only be experienced when there is no grasping.
    If you are asking these questions, it means the necessary insights are not well established. Otherwise, how 'no thought' or very few thoughts and subsequent brightness can be experienced will be understood. Which then, in turn means you need to meditate .. many of us still meditate. At least I do..on a daily basis. Even the Buddha after his Enlightenment. Cheers








  • Indy Moo-Young
    your posts seem quite performative. i think you're being self-deceptive of your level of realization.


    Mr. O
    Author
    Indy Moo-Young entirely possible. And if I am, I trust that Soh will get to the bottom of it! 😎

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  • Tommy McNally
    If you consider yourself to be a bodhisattva, then practice absolutely must continue since our entire goal is the liberation of all sentient beings. If you're only seeking personal liberation, then you're not a bodhisattva. I understand that you're not especially well versed in Buddhadharma, so I wanted to point this out as it's an important distinction and there's an entire path (Bodhisattvayana) dedicated to the training of a bodhisattva.
    Even if you're aiming for personal liberation, you're not there yet and so stopping formal practice would be a dreadful mistake. You may feel that you're 'there' to some extent, but your descriptions elsewhere in the replies to this post suggest (to me and based on my own experience so far) that you still have work to do, e.g. your emphasis on "the Goddess" implies an asymmetry at a deep, extremely subtle level. It may seem unimportant, and I actually do understand why you'd characterise the creative energies in this way; but it suggests that you're still bound up in duality and haven't truly experienced the nature of mind.
    I don't say any of this to be critical or to just be a dick. There's no benefit in blowing smoke up your ass, and if there's more work to be done then it's incumbent on other experienced practitioners to point this out and suggest how to move forward.
    If you find that your current practice isn't working for you, then there are myriad other practices to explore depending on your goals. Personally, I would recommend tonglen and the Four Immeasurables as they can bring about a profound shift in experience that changes everything, and dissolves any sense of distinction between self and other. These practices require absolute sincerity, otherwise it's just mental masturbation.
    If you're serious about liberation and are interested in energetic work, find a lineaged teacher who can teach you tummo. It's extremely powerful and goes far beyond simply generating inner heat, but it requires an experienced teacher as it can potentially fuck you up. You're essentially taking conscious control over certain, normally unconscious and automatic elements of your nervous system, and also disentangling identification with deep primal drives that still dictate much of your day to day life.
    If you feel more comfortable with open awareness sort of practices, and especially if you find that Dzogchen teachings resonate with you, then seek empowerment to practice trekchod and togal. These are also extremely powerful, yet deceptively simple practices that can lead to complete liberation in one lifetime. Basic sky gazing practices can give you a hint of what's involved and start you off, but there's subtleties and nuances that need to be explained by a teacher so as to avoid delusion.
    Sticking with Dzogchen, the practices of Ati Guru Yoga and Song of the Vajra are also simple but profound; but again, you need a teacher and certain transmissions before they'll work properly.
    I'm not convinced by anyone claiming that vipassana doesn't work after a certain point. I went through that phase too many years ago, but I was wrong and probably wasted a lot of time on less effective practices. Vipassana just means something like "clear seeing", which lies at the heart of Buddhadharma. All we're ever doing is trying to see, with the clarity of wisdom, how we fabricate experience due to our fundamental ignorance. There are countless methods available, but in some way they all involve a blend of one-pointedness and clear seeing.
    As a note of caution re. "Ancestors" and spirits, etc: My background pre-Buddhadharma was primarily within the Western Mystery Traditions, including Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Thelema, Enochian magick, Kabbalistic pathwork, astral projection and related practices. Unless you know how to test these (seemingly separate) entities, and how to bring them under control with fierce compassion, you're at risk of being deceived by your own projections and reinforcing the habitual patterning that brought you to samsara in the first place. Tread very carefully and don't accept what you're told unless you can confirm it with absolute certainty through study and practice.
    Long story short: Keep practicing, no matter how advanced you think you are.




  • Mr. O
    Author
    Tommy McNally thank you, this is great. Precisely the kind of response I was hoping to receive. I think elsewhere the thread got kind of sidetracked into people “testing” my level of realization according to Buddhist standards that I don’t really connect with. I appreciate your directness, and how you actually addressed my principal question.
    (As an aside, I realize this isn’t the right crowd for any goddess talk—which would definitely be more suited for a Shaiva Tantra or even Bön group, if I knew of any good ones—and I totally hear what you’re saying about the self-deluding dangers of engaging with entities. In my experience, that is resolved when you realize that they are *all* actually empty externalizations/projections of different parts of your own psyche.)
    Anyway, your response seems to focus primarily on advising me to get into a lineage of Tibetan Buddhism. My understanding of that world is that you have to engage with a whole cosmology, and a retinue of deities, and do years of “preliminary practices” like prayers and mantras to just get in the door. This probably sounds arrogant to someone steeped in that tradition, but what is one to do if they are interested in learning the techniques without all the religion? I have my own imagination/archetypal cosmos and well-established practices for navigating it, and have no interest in being required to buy into a whole Tibetan worldview.
    Is there such a thing as a proper Ati Guru Yoga teacher (for example) that allows you to do your own thing when it comes to the entities/deities/mantras/rituals?

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    Tommy McNally
    Mr. O If you believe you've developed your own syncretic approach that truly leads to complete liberation, then by all means have at it.
    I wasn't advising you to get into a lineage of Tibetan Buddhism. I was offering a few suggestions for other practices that, in my experience, are very powerful and may allow for considerable progress. Some of those require empowerment and transmissions, otherwise they won't work effectively.
    And to answer your question re. A bastardised Ati Guru Yoga: No, that's just silly.








  • Bruce McCaskey
    I'm not speaking from experience, just wondering: is accumulating joriki a good reason to continue formal practice ?


    Mr. O
    Author
    Bruce McCaskey that seems to be what Soh and Sim are suggesting in some of their latest comments.








  • Anthony Goh
    Hey. First up thanks for sharing yourself here, I enjoyed reading you. I think people have been quite harsh on you here, I feel the group has a slightly sectarian shadow sometimes, if you don't speak exactly the same language as AtR, or Vajrayana, you meet a lot of questions. But anyway not to dwell, I think the core of this question is basically about doubts and preferences ....
    so, you do your deity hangout practice, like a formal practice. why ? I imagine, because it's interesting, wholesome, beautiful, and you feel it's expanding you. you know for sure, outside the level of rationality, there are benefits. and, you are confident in co-creating and navigating this practice, from scratch, without asking anyone if its ok, right, wrong, etc.
    but, sitting practice. you didn't yet 'master' jhana / samadhi , total disappearance. but it doesn't occur to you to practice it .... or more accurately, you have doubts about "have I hit the limit of silent sitting?" or is there more ? is it worth it ?
    IMO these doubts represent your inner knowing there is something interesting, wholesome, a new area there. IMO people's beings generally have a strong preference for life/gut - love/heart - head/silence. and cultivation in one aspect comes so naturally, easily, like learning to love , and in others aspects, it feels more like unimportant, or something esoteric, or like 'why would I do that?' and, in this uncertainty, a question of the form of "is something done or not done" can arise, rather than an endless longing for more unknown beauty
    to some people, the question, why learn to sit in some super-silent-samadhi for ages, is not even a question, it's as ridiculous to ask as why love your children , or why stop the car to look at a rainbow...
    a teacher of mine had a similar 'being-setup' to you, they never went on retreats, had a family, had a lot of deistic contact, and only later started to really get into being really really empty.
    i also don't think you necessarily need to get into any whole other tradition, tho, of course you can if you want. but just looking honestly at the source of your doubt. for the record I have not attained any super samadhi or any other realisation. all the best to you


    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    "I feel the group has a slightly sectarian shadow sometimes, if you don't speak exactly the same language as AtR, or Vajrayana, you meet a lot of questions"
    Not really. But I think it is healthy to question claims. For example, it is my experience that when people talk about no self, 99% they are talking about non-doership rather than nondual, and even if nondual it is not anatta. There are different gradations of insights and we have to be careful about these. No self for others does not necessarily mean AtR anatta. This is why I wrote this article to make it as clear as possible: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../different-degress...
    Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
    Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    John Tan, Yin Ling often shares the same skepticism with me when people make claims about no self insight. Not speaking about this OP, but many other instances.


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Even anatta is just really the beginning. OP may or may not agree, but we have to make our stance clear about things.


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    This has nothing to do with sectarianism or semantics but the subtleties of actual experiential insights.


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    For example if someone is a Buddhist, a Vajrayana Buddhist (and btw I equally appreciate Zen and Theravada), even so, I have equal skepticism for that person's claim of 'no self insight' as I have for a non-Buddhist. Because actual anatta experiential insight is rare, even for Buddhist practitioners and Buddhist teachers. Very rare. It is much easier to get some breakthroughs in terms of I AM, non-doership, impersonality, glimpses of nondual, or substantialist nondual sort of realization. Anatta is really quite rare even for Buddhists. This is why Daniel Ingram mistakens it as "4th path" or "arahantship", but to us in AtR it is just stream entry https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20
    Those in my admin group will know I criticise some Buddhist teachers for their lack of clarity of insight. My skepticism is not skewed towards non-Buddhists. lol
    r/streamentry on Reddit: [insight] [buddhism] A reconsideration of the meaning of "Stream-Entry" considering the data points of both pragmatic Dharma and traditional Buddhism
    REDDIT.COM
    r/streamentry on Reddit: [insight] [buddhism] A reconsideration of the meaning of "Stream-Entry" considering the data points of both pragmatic Dharma and traditional Buddhism
    r/streamentry on Reddit: [insight] [buddhism] A reconsideration of the meaning of "Stream-Entry" considering the data points of both pragmatic Dharma and traditional Buddhism

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Soh Wei YuAdmin
DhO generally takes a non-interfering approach when people make claims.
Personally, I 'interfere' with all claims or challenge them, even the others like Wil Gau and so on -- I wrote many emails questioning him and etc. Also provided some feedback and advise.
I spammed AtR 7 stages links to thousands of people on reddit privately also, lol
But of course if they didn't like it (most people like the links) then I don't have time to waste on them either. Live and let live.
Many people seemed to benefit from my sharing and some had breakthroughs (even up to anatta and so on) after reading, so I continue to share.
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