MZ: The last 20 min or so was when it got spicy lol [referring to Guru Wiking interview

Soh: Actually those are good questions
What is it that gives doubtlessness and certainty, it is this knowingness
So Angelo is pointing out the distinction [knowingness vs conceptual knowing]
This knowingness is also known as rigpa
[7:46 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: In one of my advice to u when jax left, do u know where is that piece of advice I wrote?
[8:01 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic what flaw
[8:01 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I did clarify im not denying I AM though
[8:02 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: No not that
[8:02 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: First I have told u many times I M is not an experience
[8:02 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: In my realization article to u
[8:03 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: I was asking u what is the difference between knowingness and knowing
[8:04 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah.. actually the initial post i think were your words lol
[8:04 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I also dont see I AM as experience
[8:04 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Now tell me the difference
[8:05 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: In I AM there is only I AM as direct authentication, doubtless and certain. No experiencer-experiencing-experience. But the same applies to everything after anatta
[8:06 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Don't rush into it
[8:06 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: U must know ur mistake
[8:06 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: First tell me the difference
[8:07 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: When I wrote the reply to u? It is the same issue again with Anurag.
[8:07 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: 2013
[8:08 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: U can send him my reply to abt this to Jax and said we have discussed this many times b4. So as ppl will not mistake I-I.
[8:08 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I AM as a realization is just this doubless I.. a very doubtless sense of existence and presence only. As an experience there is no such certainty and is often fleeting glimpses
[8:09 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Tell me what is the difference between knowing and knowingness
[8:10 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Anatta is more like being sound rather than known sound, except through realization not just no mind
[8:10 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Knowing sound*
[8:10 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Knowingness of sound is just sound reverberating
[8:10 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: I am asking u knowingness and knowinv
[8:10 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: See u can't know the difference
[8:11 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Listen clearly
[8:11 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: I don't want to repeat again
[8:11 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Tiring
[8:11 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Lol
[8:11 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[8:11 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: To know is to measure and compare. Think about it...
[8:12 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Even to know about sensing and hearing
[8:12 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: U need differences
[8:12 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Silent and know sound
[8:12 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[8:12 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: There must b differences to know
[8:12 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Otherwise there is no knowing
[8:13 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: There is sense presence
[8:13 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: There is no knowing
[8:13 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Think very carefully and go through
[8:13 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Don't just blah
[8:15 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: In sense presence there is just the nondual nonconceptuality of various so called shades of colors, in knowing the colors are distinguished from each other and objects are recognised
[8:16 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: There can't b registering of color also
[8:16 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. yeah no distinction
[8:16 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Knowing requires differences
[8:16 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: So When there is differences, how so u know?
[8:17 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: There is comparison..
But how is it that u know?
[8:17 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: This intelligence..
[8:17 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: This alive creativity
[8:17 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: This unconditioned
[8:18 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: That is the knowingness
[8:18 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: There is the comparison and there is that knowingness
[8:19 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: So direct pointing in Zen is pointing directly to this knowingness
[8:19 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: 直指人心
[8:20 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: It is unconditioned, it is not touched by relative thoughts or conceptual knowledge...
[8:21 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Authentication is not non-dual between subject or object, it is not a non-dual experience.
[8:21 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Authentication is direct pointing to this Knowingness.
[8:22 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Heart to heart direct authentication
[8:22 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. yeah thats my normal experience these days.. everything is very alive
[8:22 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: This is the I-I authentication
[8:22 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: I m not talking about ur experience
[8:22 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: I m talking about u r unable to bring out this point
[8:23 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: So lack of the Zen sharpness in pointing
[8:23 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: So u must differentiate
[8:23 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Im pointing out people to I AM in atr group lol
[8:23 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[8:24 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: In anatta, authentication is everywhere, every instance, every manifestation.
[8:24 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Where manifestation is, clarity is.
[8:25 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Theres this very brilliant aliveness and knowingness whether it be formless, or as the so called trees and sky and everything.. same quality and intensity.
Past few days my sleep a bit hard. I think maybe intensity.. need to regulate my energies
[8:25 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Yes
[8:25 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: I m not talking about ur realization
[8:26 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: I m talking about u r not able to bring this out
[8:26 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: U need to discern correctly
[8:26 PM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I see
[8:26 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Re-read what I wrote to u when Jax left
[8:26 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: It is the same issue
[8:27 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Don't show our conversation
[8:28 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Show Jax letter and say this this not the first time we have this discussion
[8:29 PM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: U have realized I-I no doubt but the sharpness in discerning need refinement
Also, the key to bring knowingness to maturity is anatta insight.
"The key towards pure knowingness is to bring the taste of presence into the 6 entries and exits. So that what is seen, heard, touched, tasted are pervaded by a deep sense of crystal, radiance and transparency. This requires seeing through the center." - John Tan many years ago
On Rigpa:
A Lamp to Dispel Darkness
Schools & Systems › Dzogchen | Practices › Meditation | Tibetan Masters › Mipham Rinpoche
English | Français | བོད་ཡིག
Ju Mipham Namgyal Gyatso
From the murals of Shechen Monastery. Used with permission of Rabjam Rinpoche.
A Lamp to Dispel Darkness
An Instruction that Points Directly to the Very Essence of Mind
In the Tradition of ‘the Old Realized Ones’
by Mipham Jampal Dorje
The Homage
Homage to the Lama, inseparable from Mañjuśrī, the embodiment of wisdom!
Without having to study, contemplate, or train to any great degree,
Simply by maintaining recognition of the very nature of mind according to the approach of the pith instructions,
Any ordinary village yogi can, without too much difficulty,
Reach the level of a vidyādhara: such is the power of this profound path.
The Instruction that Cracks Open the Egg-shell of Ignorance
When you leave your mind in a state of natural rest, without thinking any particular thought, and at the same time maintain some kind of mindfulness, you can experience a state of vacant, neutral, apathetic indifference, called “lungmaten”, (a ‘no-man’s land’), where your consciousness is dull and blank.
In this, there is not any of the clear insight of vipaśyanā, which discerns things precisely, and so the masters call it marigpa (“non-recognition, ignorance, unknowing”). Since you cannot define it and say “This is what it’s like”, or “This is it!” such a state is called lungmaten (“undecided, indeterminate”). And since you cannot say what kind of state it is you are resting in, or what your mind is thinking, it is also called tha mal tang nyom (“an ordinary state of apathetic indifference”). In fact, you are stuck in an ordinary state within the ālaya.
You need to use such a means of resting the mind, as a stepping stone, so as to give rise to the non-conceptual state of primordial wisdom. However, if there is not the self-recognition of primordial wisdom which is our rigpa, then it cannot count as the main (meditation) practice of Dzogchen. As The Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra says:
A blank state, devoid of any thought whatsoever—
That is marigpa, the cause of delusion.
Therefore, when mind experiences this kind of dull state that lacks any thought or mental activity, by allowing your attention to turn naturally and gently towards the one who is aware of this state—the one who is not thinking—you discover the pure awareness of rigpa, free of any movement of thought, beyond any notion of outside or inside, unimpeded and open, like the clear sky.
Although there is no dualistic separation here between an experience and an experiencer, still the mind is certain about its own true nature, and there is a sense that, “There is nothing whatsoever beyond this.” When this occurs, because you can not conceptualize it or express it in words, it is acceptable to apply such terms as: “free from all extremes”, “beyond description”, “the fundamental state of clear light” and “the pure awareness of rigpa.”
As the wisdom of recognizing your own true nature dawns, it clears away the blinding darkness of confusion, and, just as you can see clearly the inside of your home once the sun has risen, you gain confident certainty in the true nature of your mind.
This was ‘the instruction (mengak) for cracking open the egg-shell of ignorance (marigpa).’
The Instruction for Cutting through the Web of Saṃsāric Existence
When you gain this kind of realization, you understand that this nature of reality has always been this way, timelessly, that it is not created by any causes or conditions, and that it never undergoes any kind of transition or change in the past, present or future. At the same time, you can not find even the tiniest fraction of something called “mind” that is separate from this nature.
You could also say that the state of mental blankness we looked at earlier is indescribable, but it lacks decisiveness, since you are completely unable to describe it in any way. Rigpa, on the other hand, is in essence indescribable, but at the same time it has a decisive quality that cuts through any doubt about what is indescribable. So there is a huge difference between these two kinds of indescribability, like the difference between blindness and perfect vision.
This covers the crucial point of distinguishing between the ālaya and the dharmakāya.
Therefore, because terms like ‘ordinary mind’, ‘mental nondoing’, ‘inexpressible’ and so on are used in two different ways—only one of which is authentic—when you come to know the crucial point of how the same words can have a higher level of meaning, you can come to experience the true meaning of the profound Dharma.
When resting in the essence of mind, some feel that what is to be maintained is a simple clarity, a simple awareness, and so they settle in a state of ordinary mental consciousness, thinking, “This is clarity.” Some focus their attention on the awareness of an absorbing sense of emptiness, as though their minds had ‘become’ empty. But, in both cases, there is some clinging to the dualistic experience of an aspect of ordinary mental consciousness.
When you find yourself in either of these states, look into the innate nature (bab) of that subtly fixated attention—the clarity and the one perceiving the clarity, the emptiness and the one perceiving the emptiness—and, by doing so, you will take away the support for the ordinary consciousness that perceives things dualistically. Then, if you can decisively recognize the innate nature of your own mind in all its nakedness—clear and open, without any limit or centre—and a state of lucid clarity arises, that is what is called, ‘the very essence of rigpa.’ With this, as rigpa sheds the covering layer of experiences involving clinging, its pure and pristine wisdom is laid bare.
This was ‘the instruction for cutting through the web of conditioned existence.’
The Instruction for Remaining in the Equalness which is like Space
This is how you should recognize the pure awareness of rigpa once it is freed from the various layers of ordinary thinking and experience, like a grain of rice freed from its husk—by settling naturally and making use of rigpa’s own self-knowing (or self-illuminating) quality.
It is not enough, however, simply to understand the nature of rigpa; you must be able to remain in that state with some stability through developing familiarity. And so it is very important that, without becoming distracted, you sustain constant mindfulness, so as to continue resting in an utterly natural state of awareness.
When you are maintaining that state, at times you might experience a vague and dull state with no thoughts, while at other times you might experience an unobstructed state (zang thal) with no thoughts that has the clarity of vipaśyanā. At times, you might experience states of bliss on which you fixate, while at other times you might experience states of bliss free of such fixation. At times, you might have various experiences of clarity with grasping, while at other times you might experience a vivid clarity that is unsullied and free of grasping. At times, you might have unpleasant and disturbing experiences, while at other times you might have pleasant and soothing experiences. And at times, you might experience an extreme turbulence of thoughts which carries your mind away, causing you to lose your meditation; while at other times, you might experience unclear states of mind because of a failure to distinguish between mental dullness and vivid clarity.
These and other experiences come about unpredictably and to an extent you can not measure, like various waves produced by the winds of karma and habitual thoughts, which you have cultivated throughout beginningless time. It is as though you are on a long journey, during which you visit all sorts of different places—some of them pleasant, some fraught with danger—but whatever happens, you do not allow it to deter you, and continue on your own path.
In particular, when you are not yet familiar with this practice, and you have the experience of ‘movement,’ as all manner of thoughts stir in your mind, like a blazing fire, don’t become discouraged. Maintain the flow of your practice without letting it slip away, and find the right balance, so that you are neither too tense nor too relaxed. In this way, the more advanced meditative experiences, such as ‘attainment,’[1] will occur one after another.
At this point, investigate the distinction between the recognition and nonrecognition of rigpa, between ālaya and dharmakāya, and between ordinary awareness and wisdom. Through the master’s pith instructions, and on the basis of your own personal experience, have confidence in the direct introduction you receive. While you are maintaining this, just as water clears by itself if you do not stir it, your ordinary awareness will settle in its own nature. So you need to focus mainly on the instructions which clearly show how the true nature of this awareness is naturally arising wisdom. Don’t analyze with a view to adopting one state and abandoning another, thinking, “What is this that I am cultivating in meditation? Is it ordinary awareness or wisdom?” Nor should you entertain all kinds of speculations based on the understanding you have gained from books, because doing will only serve to obstruct both śamatha and vipaśyanā.
At some point, the aspect of familiarity or śamatha—which here means settling in an utterly natural way with stable and continuous mindfulness—and vipaśyanā—which here means the awareness that knows its own nature by itself—will merge together automatically. When this happens, and you gain some stable familiarity with it, you come to understand how the śamatha and vipaśyanā that are the primordial stillness of the natural state and the clear light of your own nature have always been inseparable, and the naturally arising wisdom that is the wisdom mind of Dzogpachenpo dawns.
That was the instruction for remaining in the equalness which is like space.
The glorious Saraha said:
Having gone beyond thinker and thinking,
Remain like a young child, free of thoughts,
This is the way to be. He also said:
Focus on the master’s words and apply great effort—
Then, if you have received the master’s instructions introducing you to your rigpa:
There is no doubt that your inherent nature will arise.
As he says, the naturally arising wisdom that is mind’s inherent nature, and which has always accompanied your ordinary mind from time immemorial, will dawn. This is no different from the inherent nature of everything, and so it is also called the ‘genuine clear light of the fundamental nature (nyukma dön gyi ösal).’
Therefore, this approach of resting in a completely natural state and maintaining the recognition of your own nature, or rigpa, the very essence of mind, or the nature of phenomena, is ‘the pith instruction that brings together a hundred crucial points in one.’ This is also what you are to maintain continuously.
The true measure of your familiarity with this is the ability to maintain the state of clear light during sleep. The signs that you are on the right track can be known through your own experience: your faith, compassion and wisdom will increase automatically, so that realization will come easily, and you will experience few difficulties. You can be certain about how profound and swift this approach is if you compare the realization it brings with the realization gained only through great effort in other approaches.
As a result of cultivating your mind’s own natural clear light, the obscurations of ordinary thinking and the habits it creates will be naturally cleared away (sang), and the two aspects of omniscient wisdom will effortlessly unfold (gyé). With this, as you seize the stronghold of your own primordial nature, the three kāyas will be spontaneously accomplished.
Profound! Guhya! Samaya!
This profound instruction was written by Mipham Jampal Dorje on the twelfth day of the second month, in the Fire Horse year (1906), for the benefit of village yogis and others, who, while not able to exert themselves too much in study and contemplation, still wish to take the very essence of mind into experience through practice. It has been set out in language that is easy to understand, in accordance with the experiential guidance of a great many old realized masters. Virtue! Maṅgalam!
| Translated by Adam Pearcey, 2005.
1 This is a reference to five successive experiences that occur during the development of meditation in general, and śamatha in particular. They are termed ‘movement’ (compared to a cascade of water down a rock face), ‘attainment’ (compared to a torrent in a deep ravine), ‘familiarization’ (compared to a meandering river), ‘stability’ (compared to an ocean free of waves), and ‘consummation’ (compared to a mountain).
On Intuition:
[8:24 AM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: Nothing wrong with awareness practice, just practitioners will skew towards non conceptual clarity. However total opening requires one to see through conventionality understanding the DO and how it binds and bond the mind in a powerful and hypnotic way.
[8:25 AM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: Also awareness without breath and energy practice cannot effectively open up and release oneself.
[8:35 AM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: Pristine clarity and aliveness go hand in hand. When one is totally and non-dually aware, he is also fully alive and open. Experiencing one without the other isn't complete. Although many experience energy release and aliveness in non-dual awareness, they still skew towards clarity and do not know how to open up the energy, the "aliveness" aspect.
[8:54 AM, 3/3/2017] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[8:58 AM, 3/3/2017] Soh Wei Yu: years ago Ms X had a miscarriage and tried to conceive since and could not, then Ms Y ask me to see whether she will get pregnant, so I prayed to guan yin then meditate.. suddenly had a strong intuition that two years later she will get pregnant. Now two years later she is now pregnant. Lol
[8:59 AM, 3/3/2017] Soh Wei Yu: Seeing through conventionality means seeing through inherency on convention right, like understand weather is a label collating
[9:15 AM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: Yes and also the relation between inherency, origination and dependencies.
[9:17 AM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: U can sharpen ur felt sense and improve ur intuition
[9:29 AM, 3/3/2017] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[8:35 PM, 3/3/2017] Soh Wei Yu: The other day i was playing baseball with a Friend and first few times didn't play well but after few rounds it's like somehow becoming quite good.. it's like the learning and knowing is from whole body mind and environment in total exertion but not from concepts. I think intuition is similar.. but I'm usually not an intuitive person
[8:35 PM, 3/3/2017] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[8:40 PM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: Developing to sense using felt sense is like learning all those conventionalities...u need time but it starts from calming ur mind and b vipassanic means non-conceptual. Then choose a practice "feel" directly. Means the "knowing" comes from the felt sense.
[8:40 PM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: Like what is meant by being pure?
[8:40 PM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: Being open
[8:40 PM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: Being fearless
[8:41 PM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: What is meant by "inflamed"
[8:41 PM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: By being alive
[8:42 PM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: The mind "thinks" to understand but the heart feels...
[8:43 PM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: Then slowly the sensing ability will improve and communications will turn direct, intuitive and immediate
[8:43 PM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: But that is not wisdom as many Mistaken.
[8:44 PM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: However it is another mode of knowing without the limitation of comparison and measurement which is how the mind works
[8:46 PM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: If I tell u to open up ur body...there r many "hows"...the mind attempts to think by searching into memory bank for similar experiences...all these have to put aside
[8:46 PM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: It is a different mode of knowing
[8:47 PM, 3/3/2017] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[8:51 PM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: Iet's say I ask u abt digestive do u make ur system purge?
[8:54 PM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: U can read up and understand but ur mind is also full of thoughts...u nvr really feel ur system ... like so u know ur body takes how many hours to digest? When u drink water what happen? How ur body feels? Do u purge after taking breakfast and how ur body is the sensation like...the circulation, the blood flow, the tightness of ur body...does breathing exercise helps?
[8:56 PM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: It is like practicing body scanning in vipassana


    Kyle dixon shared on reddit:
    Jean-Luc Achard on Integration of the View and the Role of Diligence in Relation to the Key Points of Trekcho
    is actually pretty easy to enter the experience of rigpa but more
    difficult to cultivate it without artifice, outside of a retreat
    context. Most of the westerners I know do not do any retreat. They go to
    teachings when a lama is there and they call it a retreat. I’ve
    received a lot of teachings in Tibet and none of the masters ever said a
    word about integration into daily working life. This is something that a
    few Tibetan masters have made for the west. Traditionally, when you
    receive a Dzogchen teaching, you then go into retreat and generate some
    experience. This takes months at best. Then you come back to the master
    and relate your experience. Then you get further details on more
    advanced practice, etc., and you go into another retreat. So not doing
    any “real” retreat is probably a drawback that affects most people. For
    instance, the retreat of trekchö in the Kunzang Nyinthik (its the same
    for those who follow the Yeshe Lama for instance) does not last less
    than 18 continuous months in a traditional context.
    point that is related is misunderstanding some key points in trekchö.
    For instance, all our masters repeat that once you have entered the
    state of trekchö, then you must not do anything. And you consequently
    have people not doing anything for years! They just remain like that,
    glued in a state of total blankness, using vague words like “presence”
    to describe the actual fogginess of their experience. Actually, what
    texts say is that you don’t do anything at first, not continually. “At
    first” means that it’s simply the threshold of trekchö practice. What
    you actually have to do is once you don’t doubt anymore regarding the
    actual “flavor” of this state, then you have to cultivate it with
    artifice during specific sessions (that’s the purpose of the 18 months
    mentioned above) after which you are quasi-certain to reach a
    non-regressive stability in this state. Most of the time, this stability
    is reached quite earlier during the retreat. It’s actually easier to
    succeed in this during a retreat than during the daily working life when
    you have all the distractions of your ordinary social life. So during
    the retreat, at a certain stage, you train in integration. There are
    four things to integrate: (i) the activities of the three doors, (ii)
    the activities of the six associations of consciousness, (iii) specific
    intellectual activities of the mind, and (iv) the variety of
    circumstances that life puts on your path. So the “doing nothing” is
    really something for beginners in trekchö. Most people I know mistake it
    for the real practice. That’s the worst mistake to make because one is
    never going to make any progress if one goes on like this.
    are plenty of things to do. Rushen for instance in order to clearly
    deepen this knowledge and have a direct experience that is not produced
    by our discursiveness. Then, the training of the 3 doors. Then specific
    techniques such as the four natural accesses to properly access the
    state of trekchö. [One should not think] there is nothing to do: there
    are things to do to enter this state, and once you’re in it you
    cultivate it by integrating other things (after having become
    familiarized with it). This appears to be not understood by all. When
    you are in this state, you just have to stabilize it. This takes the
    whole path to do so! Don’t bypass it because you don’t like it, it’s
    precisely like this, one has to practice, period. You may state
    otherwise but this is not Dzogchen anymore. Once you are stable in the
    experience of the natural state, you realize that this experience is
    uncompounded, unaltered, etc., and you don’t have to do anything to
    correct it. But in general, everyone (including our masters at a stage
    in their life) regresses from it. So one has to become familiar with it,
    through contemplation practice. But this contemplation practice is
    aimless if it just means sitting and doing nothing. That means each time
    you quit your sitting meditation, you are regressing from that state.
    But, if you want to integrate the natural state in a non-regressive way,
    you have to do something. Trekchö has to be done for very long sessions
    during specific retreats in total silence and isolation. The longer the
    sessions, the deeper the experience grows until, like a sheet which
    constantly put into water never dries, one does not regress anymore from
    the experience of the natural state.
    — Jean-Luc Achard


  • May be an image of ‎text that says '‎2:20 John Tan 4G L vC uv ש1 VCI U Cรccดo during specific retreats in total silence and isolation. The longer the sessions, deeper the experience grows until, like sheet which constantly put into water never dries, one does not regress anymore from the experience the natural state. -Jean-Luc Achard 1:56PM 1:56 1UNREAD MESSAGE shared on reddit Jean- Achard the View and.. Reply W Thanks R Y U S D F G H J K z c B N 123 M space return‎'‎

    • Reply
    • 5h

  • Owen Richards
    Wow. All that efforting and endless path sounds very Theravada, not at all direct path...

    • Reply
    • 4h

    Soh Wei Yu
    Direct path is just for realisation. It is not Buddhahood.
    Even Dzogchen and Mahamudra stresses strict discipline and retreats. It is generally understood in Dzogchen that full Buddhahood requires around 12 years of practice in a retreat setting for someone of a mediocre capacity. Zen patriarch Bodhidharma sat 9 years even after being awakened, and so on.
    Buddhists do quite unanimously think that neo advaita people are deluded with the no practice thing.
    From AtR guide:
    On the duration it takes to attain Buddhahood:
    [1:21 AM, 10/8/2020] John Tan: Have you listened to the Dan brown? [Soh: this is referring to another video -- ]
    [1:21 AM, 10/8/2020] Soh Wei Yu: havent yet.. is it good?
    [1:21 AM, 10/8/2020] John Tan: From I AM to non-dual to one mind to no mind
    [1:22 AM, 10/8/2020] Soh Wei Yu: oic.. but not anatta?
    [1:22 AM, 10/8/2020] John Tan: To dzogchen, the view is the practice or view includes practice. You listen tomorrow, you will understand. Hale must be thinking that it is quite similar with the phases of insights But I deleted that away in the comment
    [1:25 AM, 10/8/2020] Soh Wei Yu: oic.. why delete
    [1:27 AM, 10/8/2020] John Tan: I dunno about dzogchen much, so I will stay with what I know and Instead of saying phases of insights are similar, will cause unnecessary issues...and I am not trying to come out some version of jaxchen or soh-chen...
    [9:23 AM, 10/8/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. you said it talks about no mind but it didnt mention about anatta realization?
    [9:29 AM, 10/8/2020] John Tan: Yeah
    [2:09 PM, 10/8/2020] John Tan: Frankly I like Dan brown video but the timeline is unrealistic.
    [2:11 PM, 10/8/2020] John Tan: The steps are however clear.
    Nauli for example. Even doing the centre extrusion will take few months of practice and to really churn the will take about 2 years. To churn and have sufficient control will take much more time. Even if you practice diligently as an exercise will take you probably 4-5 years to master.
    [2:13 PM, 10/8/2020] John Tan: As for insights, it is not a matter of pointing out, the stability will take probably 10-25 years post anatta to even have stability and that is practicing quite diligently. Resting in appearances without observer and observed will take probably more time. Into 3 states IMO and experiences require another understanding and that is important. The key is in the message I told andre and asked you what are the other ways beside anatta and do for active mode of no-agency.
    [2:16 PM, 10/8/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. but buddha said you can attain arahant between 7 days to 7 years just by practicing four foundations of mindfulness.. but i guess that timeline is for monks and often in retreat
    [2:17 PM, 10/8/2020] John Tan: That is not Buddhahood
    [2:17 PM, 10/8/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. but should have cleared the ten fetters right
    [2:17 PM, 10/8/2020] John Tan: Yes. That is why I told you to ponder on the no agency part. You need to have that insight, otherwise it is just half done. In other words it is no self in active mode. Why is it half done? Because it is normally in passive mode. So your dreams will normally remain karmic.
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Furthermore see what John Tan said in 2020 about direct path here:
    “This is like what I tell you and essentially emphasizing 明心非见性. 先明心, 后见性. (Soh: Apprehending Mind is not seeing [its] Nature. First apprehend Mind, later realise [its] Nature).
    First is directly authenticating mind/consciousness 明心 (Soh: Apprehending Mind). There is the direct path like zen sudden enlightenment of one's original mind or mahamudra or dzogchen direct introduction of rigpa or even self enquiry of advaita -- the direct, immediate, perception of "consciousness" without intermediaries. They are the same.
    However that is not realization of emptiness. Realization of emptiness is 见性 (Soh: Seeing Nature). Imo there is direct path to 明心 (Soh: Apprehending Mind) but I have not seen any direct path to 见性 (Soh: Seeing Nature) yet. If you go through the depth and nuances of our mental constructs, you will understand how deep and subtle the blind spots are.
    Therefore emptiness or 空性 (Soh: Empty Nature) is the main difference between buddhism and other religions. Although anatta is the direct experiential taste of emptiness, there is still a difference between buddhist's anatta and selflessness of other religions -- whether it is anatta by experiential taste of the dissolution of self alone or the experiential taste is triggered by wisdom of emptiness.
    The former focused on selflessness and whole path of practice is all about doing away with self whereas the later is aboutt living in the wisdom of emptiness and applying that insight and wisdom of emptiness to all phenomena.
    As for emptiness there is the fine line of seeing through inherentness of Tsongkhapa and there is the emptiness free from extremes by Gorampa. Both are equally profound so do not talk nonsense and engaged in profane speech as in terms of result, ultimately they are the same (imo).”
    Dalai Lama - "Nature - there are many different levels. Conventional level, one nature. There are also, you see, different levels. Then, ultimate level, ultimate reality... so simply realise the Clarity of the Mind, that is the conventional level. That is common with Hindus, like that. So we have to know these different levels...." - Dalai Lama on Anatta and Emptiness of Buddha Nature in New Book

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    Owen Richards
    Soh Wei Yu oh I see. Is it because delusion is deeply hard wired?

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Shamata and vipassana ~ Thrangu Rinpoche
    If one practices śamatha meditation without vipaśyanā, one will not be able to understand the true nature of phenomena; one will just be able to rest the mind on something. It is like being on a vacation; one experiences peace on a vacation, but one does not get any lasting results from it.
    If you practice vipaśyanā without śamatha, you will not be able to eliminate whatever negativity needs to be eliminated, because vipaśayanā without śamatha is unstable. So even if you have the understanding of vipaśyanā, your mind will be agitated. Therefore you need to have both śamatha and vipaśyanā.
    – Thrangu Rinpoche
    from the book "The Practice of Tranquillity & Insight: A Guide to Tibetan Buddhist Meditation"
    ISBN: 978-1559391061 -
    John tan wrote a decade ago:
    “"After this insight, one must also be clear of the way of anatta and the path of practice. Many wrongly conclude that because there is no-self, there is nothing to do and nothing to practice. This is precisely using "self view" to understand "anatta" despite having the insight.
    It does not mean because there is no-self, there is nothing to practice; rather it is because there is no self, there is only ignorance and the chain of afflicted activities. Practice therefore is about overcoming ignorance and these chain of afflictive activities. There is no agent but there is attention. Therefore practice is about wisdom, vipassana, mindfulness and concentration. If there is no mastery over these practices, there is no liberation. So one should not bullshit and psycho ourselves into the wrong path of no-practice and waste the invaluable insight of anatta. That said, there is the passive mode of practice of choiceless awareness, but one should not misunderstand it as the "default way" and such practice can hardly be considered "mastery" of anything, much less liberation."
    In 2013, Thusness said, "Anapanasati is good. After your insight [into anatta], master a form of technique that can bring you to that the state of anatta without going through a thought process." and on choiceless awareness Thusness further commented, "Nothing wrong with choice. Only problem is choice + awareness. It is that subtle thought, the thought that misapprehend (Soh: falsely imputes/fabricates) the additional "agent"."
    “A state of freedom is always a natural state, that is a state of mind free from self/Self. You should familiarize yourself with the taste first. Like doing breathing meditation until there is no-self and left with the inhaling and exhaling... then understand what is meant by releasing.””
    Shamata and vipassana ~ Thrangu Rinpoche
    Shamata and vipassana ~ Thrangu Rinpoche
    Shamata and vipassana ~ Thrangu Rinpoche

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      Here's another thread, this one has quotes by the Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith:
      Dzogchen, Meditation and Jhana
      "To reject practice by saying, ‘it is conceptual!’ is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided.”
      — Longchenpa
      Also see: Right Samadhi
      Many people have a very warped understanding of the so called "highest teachings" such as Dzogchen and Mahamudra, thinking that these teachings allow us to bypass or skip meditation training, or that it does not require "practice" and "meditation". This cannot be further from the truth.
      Here are the words from Lopon Malcolm, a qualified dharma teacher who was asked by his Dzogchen master, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa to teach Dzogchen -
      Malcolm (Loppon Namdrol) wrote:
      Rongzom makes the point very clearly that Dzogchen practitioners must develop the mental factors that characterize the first dhyana, vitarka, vicara, pritvi, sukha and ekagraha, i.e. applied attention, sustained attention, physical ease, mental ease and one-pointedness. If you do not have a stable samatha practice, you can't really call yourself a Dzogchen practitioner at all. At best, you can call yourself someone who would like to be a Dzogchen practitioner a ma rdzogs chen pa. People who think that Dzogchen frees one from the need to meditate seriously are seriously deluded. The sgra thal 'gyur clearly says:
      The faults of not meditating are:
      the characteristics of samsara appear to one,
      there is self and other, object and consciousness,
      the view is verbal,
      the field is perceptual,
      one is bound by afflictions,
      also one throws away the path of the buddhahood,
      one does not understand the nature of the result,
      a basis for the sameness of all phenomena does not exist,
      one's vidya is bound by the three realms,
      and one will fall into conceptuality
      He also added:
      Dhyanas are defined by the presence or absence of specific mental factors.
      The Dhyanas were not the vehicle of Buddha's awakening, rather he coursed through them in order to remove traces of rebirth associated with the form and formless realms associated with the dhyanas.
      Whether you are following Dzogchen or Mahamudra, and regardless of your intellectual understanding, your meditation should have, at base, the following characteristics:
      Prthvi -- physical ease Sukha -- mental joy Ekagraha -- one-pointedness Vitarka -- initial engagement Vicara -- sustained engagement
      If any of these is missing, you have not even achieved perfect samatha regardless of whether or not you are using an external object, the breath or even the nature of the mind.
      Even in Dzogchen, the five mental factors I mentioned are key without which you are really not going to make any progress.
      Samadhi/dhyāna is a natural mental factor, we all have it. The problem is that we naturally allow this mental factor to rest on afflictive objects such as HBO, books, video games, etc.
      Śamatha practice is the discipline of harnessing our natural predisposition for concentration, and shifting it from afflictive conditioned phenomena to nonafflictive conditioned phenomena, i.e., the phenomena of the path. We do this in order to create a well tilled field for the growth of vipaśyāna. Śamatha ultimately allows us to have mental stability and suppresses afflictive mental factors so that we may eventually give rise to authentic insight into the nature of reality. While it is possible to have vipaśyāna without cultivating śamatha, it is typically quite unstable and lacks the power to effectively eradicate afflictive patterning from our minds. Therefore, the basis of all practice in Buddhadharma, from Abhidharma to the Great Perfection, is the cultivation of śamatha as a preliminary practice for germination of vipaśyāna.
      A perfect śamatha is nothing more than the first dhyāna, attended by five mental factors: vitarka, vicara, prithi, sukha and ekagraha. This is a universal definition.
      The idea that it takes a year to develop this experience is ridiculous. If you understand what you are doing, you can develop this experience in as little as a single afternoon.
      Since the mental factors of vitarka and vicara drop off above the first dhyāna, when one 's motivation is to engage in vipaśyāna, it is not appropriate to cultivate anything more than this.
      Dzogchen, Meditation and Jhana
      Dzogchen, Meditation and Jhana
      Dzogchen, Meditation and Jhana

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      A crucial difference between Dzogchen and Theravada approach to samatha AFAIK is that Dzogchen emphasizes recognition of rigpa, at least preliminarily the unfabricated clarity aspect (realizing emptiness comes later). With that base one cultivates samatha.

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