Kyle Dixon (krodha) wrote:

Pāli texts that discuss anātman would be:

AN 7.49 Dutiyasaññā Sutta, MN 140 Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta, SN 46.73 Anatta Sutta, Sutta Nipāta 5.15, Mogharājamāṇavapucchā, AN 10.60 Girimānanda Sutta, SN 22.59 Pañcavaggiya Sutta, Ud 1.10 Bāhiya Sutta, AN 4.24 Kāḷakārāma Sutta.

[22/7/22, 4:47:05 PM] ‪Mr. N: How critical is realising non-duality for nirvana? Actually, wot is non-dualism??

[23/7/22, 12:52:27 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I believe we had this discussion. Let me recap what I said:

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/04/dhamma-and-non-duality.html

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Nixon Na

"As for concepts like non-duality, or triple-duality or whatnot, use them as tools. Don’t be fooled into attainments of awakening."

We have to be clear what the non-duality here means.

There are three main types listed by Acarya Malcolm but can be more than that, David Loy lists 5 or more for example.

Malcolm's 3 in summary (my own words and paraphrase, not his):

1) ontic non-duality -- the Vedantic 'one without a second' variety of non-duality. Everything is just one substance -- Atman-Brahman, you are that one, all phenomena are that one, just like a necklace may appear in various shapes but is just made of one 'thing' -- gold.

2) absence or emptiness of subject-object (such as: perceiver-perceived, agent-action, doer-deed, etc)

3) emptiness of the ontic pairs such as existence and non-existence through insight of emptiness

It is obvious that when we realise the Buddhist insights, 1) becomes irrelevant or is seen through as flawed. It is no longer based on a view of essence, substance, or ontological substratum.

The Buddha however did teach, even in Pali suttas, 2 and 3. When you have a Buddhist awakening, the so called 'non-duality' of 2 and 3 becomes implicit and natural even without needing to call it by that name or give special emphasis to them as a concept. It is just non-conceptually actualized. That is why you do not need to give special emphasis on these as concepts, for example you can teach four noble truths and anattalakkhana sutta and then automatically the first five students have attained arahantship even without hearing about non-duality. In other suttas, the Buddha however did explicitly describe the equipoise of an arya as the suchness of heard/sensed/cognized without a cognizer and something cognized (such as Kalaka Sutta) i.e. subject and object, and many other suttas also describe how the overcoming of self view in various forms includes overcoming the view and sense of being an experiencer, agent, and watcher (Sabbasava Sutta among others).

Anyone who experiences a state, a peak experience, where the cognizer and cognised 'fuses into one' or a state of forgetting self is just describing a peak experience. That is not awakening. Even if there is some form of non-dual realization, it can end up being like Brahman. That is also not Buddhist awakening.

But if you realise anatta, dependent origination, emptiness ala the Buddhist insights, and you enter the stream, whether it be called 'stream entry' or 'first bhumi' (which Malcolm calls 'Mahayana stream entry'), automatically no subject and object is a natural and effortless state. It is not a peak experience. All the time it will be experienced like that (without reified subject and object) even without the slightest effort. It is just that the insight allows the seeing through of reification and this allows all experience to be seen in its true face - without a self/agent/perceiver/doer-deed dichotomy, and operating via conditionality, without self-nature or essence. It is like seeing a picture puzzle until one day something clicks and the perspective shifts forever, never to be unseen again. All these are far from a kind of conceptual game, it requires a direct insight into the nature of dhamma/dharma. The nature of mind. Then the so called no subject-object is just implicitly so, you don't even need to emphasize it... the more important point in fact is the absence of self-nature and conditionality.

However, if someone claims to have awakened in the Buddhist sense, but then they say their subject object sense is still strong or present, I would say this person hasn't really attained true Buddhist awakening. Even if they claim to realise no self, it is not the true Buddhist no self insight, but only halfway there.

Like Ajahn Brahmavamso said those who practice meditation and jhanas can first overcome self by seeing through and dissolving the doer. Only later, at a more mature phase, the "last citadel of self" -- the knower -- is seen through. How can you say for example that the self is truly seen through but still hold oneself to be a knower behind the known (subject and object)? So that cannot be, obviously.

The true Buddhist insight of anatta is not only seeing through doer, but also agent, knower, perceiver, seer, hearer, be-er, being, etc etc. Total deconstruction of all self/Self. Then that I consider true insight.. and Yin Ling and Sim Pern Chong fortunately has that deep penetrative insight.

[23/7/22, 12:55:02 AM] Soh Wei Yu: if there is anatta realisation, there is no subject / object (perceiver and perceived)

this is well explained in http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2012/09/great-resource-of-buddha-teachings.html with citations with suttas also

[23/7/22, 12:55:48 AM] Soh Wei Yu: AN 4.24 Kāḷakārāma Sutta:

Thus, monks, the Tathāgata does not conceive an [object] seen when seeing what is to be seen. He does not conceive an unseen. He does not conceive a to-be-seen. He does not conceive a seer.

He does not conceive an [object] heard when hearing what is to be heard. He does not conceive an unheard. He does not conceive a to-be-heard. He does not conceive a hearer.

He does not conceive an [object] sensed when sensing what is to be sensed. He does not conceive an unsensed. He does not conceive a to-be-sensed. He does not conceive a senser.

He does not conceive an [object] known when knowing what is to be known. He does not conceive an unknown. He does not conceive a to-be-known. He does not conceive a knower.

Thus, monks, the Tathagata — being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized — is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime.

[23/7/22, 12:57:02 AM] Soh Wei Yu: ajahn brahm:

The Final Part of Bāhiya's Teaching

"Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: in the seen will be merely what is seen, ... in the cognized will merely be what is cognized. Practising in this way, Bāhiya, you will not be 'because of that'. When you are not 'because of that', you will not be 'in that'. And when you are not 'in that', you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."

What does it mean "you will not be 'because of that'"? The Pāli is na tena. Tena is the instrumental of the word for 'that'. Na is the negative. It means, literally, "not because of that, not through that, not by that". It means in essence, you will not assume that there is a self, a soul, a me; because of, through, or by; the seen or the heard or the sensed or the cognized. The Buddha is saying that once you have penetrated the truth of sensory experience, by suppressing the Hindrances through Jhāna, you will see that there is no 'doer', nor a 'knower', behind sensory experience. No longer will you be able to use sensory experience as evidence for a self. Descartes' famous "I am because I think" is refuted. You will not be because of thinking, nor because of seeing, hearing or sensing. In the Buddha's words, "You will not be because of that (any sensory experience)".

When the sensory processes are discarded as tenable evidence for a self, a soul or a me, then you are no longer located in the sensory experience. In the Buddha's words, "You will not be 'in that'". You no longer view, perceive or even think that there is a 'me' involved in life. In the words of the doctor in the original series of Star Trek, "It is life, Jim, but not as we know it"! There is no longer any sense of self, or soul, at the centre of experience. You are no more 'in that'.

Just to close off the loophole that you might think you can escape non-existence of a self or soul by identifying with a transcendental state of being beyond what is seen, heard, sensed or cognized, the Buddha thunders, "and you will be neither here (with the seen, heard, sensed or cognized) nor beyond (outside of the seen, heard, sensed or cognized) nor in between the two (neither of the world nor beyond the world). The last phrase comprehensively confounded the sophists!

In summary, the Buddha advised both Bāhiya and Venerable Mālunkyaputta to experience the Jhānas to suppress the Five Hindrances. Thereby one will discern with certainty the absence of a self or a soul behind the sensory process. Consequently, sensory experience will never again be taken as evidence of a 'knower' or a 'doer': such that you will never imagine a self or a soul at the centre of experience, nor beyond, nor anywhere else. Bāhiya's Teaching put in a nutshell the way to the realization of No-Self, Anattā. "Just this", concluded the Buddha "is the end of suffering".

[23/7/22, 1:08:31 AM] Soh Wei Yu: this article is also pretty good https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-v-awakening/37-models-of-the-stages-of-awakening/the-non-duality-models/

[23/7/22, 2:15:11 PM] ‪Mr. N: thks ill go thru

[23/7/22, 4:46:48 PM] ‪Mr. N: Wots your option on this: If we are originally enlightened, how did we become deluded? And after enlightenment again, what makes it so we don’t become deluded again?

[25/7/22, 12:04:36 PM] Soh Wei Yu: sorry i forgot to reply you, been quite busy. btw i just saw kyle dixon post something, this is correct and is related to the 3rd nonduality above:

"It definitely is not emphasized, however the same “nonduality” described in Mahāyāna (as a freedom from extremes) is arguably stated here in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta:

        Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle."

[25/7/22, 12:05:29 PM] Soh Wei Yu: as to your question, my answer is that there is no original enlightenment. therefore your question do not apply. original enlightenment is a wrong view..

[25/7/22, 12:05:33 PM] ‪Mr. N: hey hey no worries, just some philosophical musing to discuss

[25/7/22, 12:05:52 PM] ‪Mr. N: Wot led to ur conclusion?

[25/7/22, 12:13:25 PM] Soh Wei Yu: original enlightenment is based on the view of inherent existence, that an ultimate state existed inherently from the beginning. such a view would contradict the very quote in Kaccayanagotta Sutta I just posted above, in which existence and non-existence are an extreme and the Buddha teaches by the middle [dependent origination]

such a question is also one that plagued zen master dogen for a long time. because he wrongly assumed (or was taught wrongly) when he was young that there is original enlightenment, this gave rise to his doubt "If we were originally enlightened, how can we be lost?" and "If we were originally enlightened, why do we even need to practice?" plagued by this doubt he could not get it resolved in japan (later after his enlightenment he noted that nobody in Japan before him actually attained great enlightenment or true awakening of the buddhadharma). his doubt made him risk his life in a dangerous journey to sail to china in search for an answer, and even then he could not find an answer and almost went back to japan empty handed until someone on his last day introduced him to Zen Master Rujing and that encounter led to his great awakening, and then he became the founder of soto zen in japan when he returned.

when dogen realised anatta, and this is as john tan described last time about the insight that resolved Dogen's doubts, "Indeed this is similar to anatta insight. When no self/Self is seen through, seen is just seen and heard is just heard. When original enlightenment is seen through, sitting is just sitting, walking is just walking, and sleeping is just sleeping -- practice enlightenment!" - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/03/original-enlightenment-vs-practice.html

later on Dogen wrote this criticising original enlightenment [hongaku],

"Some people say that, because the enlightenment of the Buddhas and Tathagatas encompass the whole world, even a speck of dust manifests that enlightenment. Because that enlightenment encompasses both subject and the object, mountains, rivers, earth, sun, moon, stars, and the four illusions and three poisons express it as well. To see mountains and rivers is to see the Tathagathas, and the four illusions and three poisons are the Buddha-dharma. To see a speck of dust is to see the dharma-dhatu and each spontaneous act is a manifestation of supreme enlightenment. They say this is the great understanding and call it a Patriarchal transmission. In latter-day Sung China, those who subscribe to this view are as numerous as rice plants, hemp. bamboo, and reeds. Their [religious] lineage is unknown, but it is clear they do not understand Buddhism."

[25/7/22, 12:15:23 PM] Soh Wei Yu: original enlightenment is also rejected in other traditions and teachings even in mahayana and vajrayana, those who knew better: 

Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith also said with regards to hongaku ("original enlightenment"), "Definitely a wrong view, even in Dzogchen.", "Chinese Buddhism departs from Indian Buddhism in many respects. Still, the idea of "inherent awakening" is patently absurd and cannot be taken literally or seriously by any means." - https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=97&t=19453&p=283507&hilit=hongaku#p283507

[25/7/22, 1:20:11 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Session Start: Tuesday, October 14, 2008

(11:21 PM) Thusness: We do not have an original nature, we have an empty nature.

(11:21 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:21 PM) Thusness: That has no beginning nor end.

(11:22 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:23 PM) Thusness: To visualize a purest state from start is a dualistic view.

(11:24 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:24 PM) Thusness: But it is not appropriate for u to answer this question yet.

(11:25 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:26 PM) Thusness: For it contradicts with many claims of those masters that focus on luminosity and have not understood their empty nature.

(11:26 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:26 PM) AEN: the poster follows korean zen, i tink zen master seung sahn etc

(11:29 PM) Thusness: Getting 'lost' and becoming dualistic is natural when we develop those conditions that make us 'lost'

(11:29 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:30 PM) Thusness: Being attached to our luminosity is one of the factor

(11:30 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:31 PM) Thusness: The assumption that there is a purest state and we will not become dualistic is itself a dualistic view.

(11:32 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:32 PM) Thusness: Luminous yet empty, this is our nature.

(11:32 PM) Thusness: Understand?

(11:34 PM) AEN: think so..

(11:38 PM) AEN: so theres no purest state, when condition is there delusion manifest?

(11:38 PM) AEN: btw u said i shldnt post this?

(11:42 PM) Thusness: Yes

(11:43 PM) Thusness: this is just to let u understand conceptually.

(11:44 PM) AEN: icic.. ok

(11:45 PM) Thusness: So that u r not trapped in a dualistic framework of understanding things.

(11:45 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:45 PM) Thusness: When DO replaces the dualistic framework, we will understand naturally.

(11:46 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:47 PM) Thusness: When DO replaces the dualistic framework, we will understand naturally.

(11:49 PM) Thusness: Because ur views is still very much inherent/dualistic, you find it hard to understand.

(11:50 PM) Thusness: Therefore whatever said is quickly distorted

(11:51 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:53 PM) Thusness: let DO re-orientate u and practice 'dropping'

(11:54 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:54 PM) AEN: ok

(11:56 PM) Thusness: It takes many many years to re-orientate urself and u have to undergo those phases I told u.  

(11:56 PM) AEN: oic.. which phases

(11:57 PM) Thusness: the six stages

(11:57 PM) Thusness: In which 5 and 6 are most important

(11:58 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:58 PM) Thusness: 5 is the great stability.  You become non conceptual and experience directly

(11:59 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:01 AM) Thusness: Now u must practice 'dropping' and go non-conceptual.

(12:01 AM) Thusness: But non-conceptuality should not be the object of practice,  it must be natural

(12:02 AM) Thusness: It comes naturally after the arising of anatta insight

(12:03 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:03 AM) Thusness: And after that, give up all thoughts can continue to 'drop' till anatta is most clear and vivid

(12:03 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:03 AM) Thusness: Till u become fully non-dual and non-conceptual

(12:04 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:04 AM) Thusness: U must practice dropping, it is safer.

(12:04 AM) AEN: wat do u mean

(12:04 AM) AEN: by it is safer

(12:05 AM) Thusness: If u don't want to experience side effects, then learn 'dropping'

(12:05 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:05 AM) AEN: what kind of side effects

(12:06 AM) Thusness: Give up and let go

(12:06 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:06 AM) AEN: when i meditate i can let go completely, and enter into an almost thoughtless state... but daily life v hard rite?

(12:06 AM) Thusness: Till u r open to all sensations naturally, vividly and effortlessly

(12:07 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:07 AM) Thusness: Difficult to tell u now lah

(12:08 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:08 AM) Thusness: U must summarize and be conceptually equipped with the right views first

(12:08 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:08 AM) Thusness: But these views are provisional  

(12:09 AM) Thusness: but because we r so caught up in looking for meanings, we want to expand these views more then necessary

(12:10 AM) Thusness: Then it becomes dangerous.

(12:10 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:10 AM) Thusness: It must go hand in hand with real experience.

(12:10 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:11 AM) Thusness: It can take few decades of practice b4 true insight dawns

(12:11 AM) Thusness: take

(12:13 AM) AEN: oic...

(12:15 AM) AEN: true insight as in prajna wisdom?

(12:19 AM) Thusness: I go sleep liao

(12:19 AM) Thusness: Yes

...

2009:

(7:34 PM) AEN: icic.. http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?f=8...

(7:37 PM) AEN: namdrol says there cant be original enlightenment as that wld be the hindu teaching

or atman (Namdrol = acarya malcolm smith)

(7:38 PM) Thusness: yes because they see non-dual as enlightenment

(7:38 PM) AEN: oic

(7:39 PM) Thusness: u mean e-sangha ban them?

lol

(7:40 PM) AEN: yeah... alot of zen teachers and even moderators were banned during a period of time and e-sangha even received lawsuits thread etc

(7:40 PM) Thusness: by the way, that is also not hindu teachings

(7:40 PM) AEN: and members

oic

there were also other issues i think... some dun believe in rebirth etc... and some other things

(7:40 PM) AEN: im not exactly sure what happened

(7:40 PM) Thusness: that is neo-advaita teaching

(7:40 PM) AEN: oic

(7:41 PM) Thusness: because we are already enlightened so why practice?

(7:41 PM) Thusness: yet this will arise another insight

so this is also necessary

(7:42 PM) Thusness: first of all if this is not true, how is it that so many practitioners are claiming that?

(7:42 PM) AEN: they have the view of an inherent consciousness?

(7:43 PM) Thusness: there must b certain experience or incomplete realization that led practitioners to such a conclusion

(7:43 PM) AEN: oic..

(7:43 PM) Thusness: it too is a koan.

(7:44 PM) AEN: icic..

(7:45 PM) Thusness: if one stops at One Mind, it will most likely end up concluding that way

(7:45 PM) AEN: oic..

(7:48 PM) Thusness: yet it is also important that u come to the same conclusion. 🙂

just like I AMness

(7:49 PM) AEN: icic..

(7:49 PM) AEN: the original enlightenment is realised at non dual ?

(7:49 PM) Thusness: yes

(7:50 PM) AEN: icic

(7:50 PM) Thusness: i think i told u we do not have a perfect nature right?

(7:50 PM) Thusness: we have a dependent originated nature

(7:50 PM) AEN: oic..

(7:51 PM) AEN: but at the same time its spontaneously perfected?

(7:51 PM) Thusness: however it is also important that u arrive at the same conclusion as those zen practitioners

(7:51 PM) AEN: oic

(7:52 PM) Thusness: that is different

(7:52 PM) Thusness: i have already told u many times not to talk about spontaneous arising, liberation or perfection

(7:52 PM) AEN: icic..

(7:53 PM) Thusness: only after the direct insight of anatta and DO can u talk about that

(7:53 PM) Thusness: this I have emphasized many times to u

and written many times

(7:54 PM) AEN: oic..

(7:55 PM) Thusness: this is because after the insight of anatta and DO, u r already purified and clear of the wrong understanding

(7:56 PM) Thusness: ignorance is the cause of suffering, when it dissolves, u r naturally and spontaneously perfected

(7:58 PM) AEN: icic..

(7:58 PM) AEN: but even when there is ignorance, our nature is spontaneously perfected right, just not realised?

(7:59 PM) Thusness: nope..

(7:59 PM) AEN: oic what u mean

(7:59 PM) Thusness: to me yes, to u no

for i know what it meant

(8:01 PM) AEN: oic 

 

...

 

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Likewise that view is rejected in the text malcolm is explaining:

The Basis as Naturally Perfect 2.1.1.1.1 Nevertheless, first, the assertion of the basis as naturally perfect is confirmed by understanding the four wheels: [Thesis] Naturally perfect reality is unfragmented and whole. [Refutation] The refutation states that this assertion that the basis is naturally perfect is defective. If it is claimed that at the time of the cause [the basis] is naturally perfect, the result also will be naturally perfect, [15b] like the example of butter already being naturally perfect in milk. In the same way, is the cause established

or not established in the result? If it is established, the result becomes a cause. Since a result is then pointless, the cause (deluded sentient beings) would then turn into the result (buddhas). In that case, there would be no need for anyone to make effort. If the cause is not established in the result, the assertion of the natural perfection [of the basis] is defective. Further, if it is said, “[The basis] is established at the time of the cause, but it is not established at the time of the result,” then natural perfection would alternate and become a view that falls into the extremes of existence and nonexistence. If it is said, “Because [the basis] is naturally perfect, it isn’t anything at all,” then this is no different than the Cittamātra assertion that the dependent nature is ultimate. The Six Dimensions Tantra states: Since the cause and result are different, [the basis] too is not naturally

perfect. Likewise, if the cause and result were the same, effort would be meaningless. The two replies to the objection can be inferred. Here they will not be mentioned. Since the essence is pure from the beginning, saṃsāra is not established. [16a] Since the nature arises as a diversity, nirvāṇa is not established. Since the essence and nature are nondual, they are present as an intrinsic nature 64 that has never experienced delusion.

- buddhahood in this life, dzogchen book/text by vimalamitra translated by acarya malcolm smith

[25/7/22, 1:21:46 PM] Soh Wei Yu: on whether enlightenment is reversible, Kyle Dixon wrote this three years ago which I like:

Nirvana is a species of cessation, and is defined as a total cessation of cause for rebirth in the three realms. Once the cause of affliction is exhausted there is no longer a means for it to re-arise, hence buddhahood is irreversible and permanent.

Nirvāṇa is the total exhaustion of one's ignorance regarding the nature of phenomena, and for that reason nirvāṇa is described as a cessation. What ceases is the cause for the further arising and proliferation of delusion regarding the nature of phenomena, which is precisely the cessation of cause for the arising of the cyclical round of rebirth in the three realms we call "saṃsāra."

For this reason, nirvāṇa is said to be 'permanent', because due to the exhaustion of cause for the further proliferation of saṃsāra, saṃsāra no longer has any way to arise.

Tsele Natsok Rangdrol:

You might ask, 'Why wouldn't confusion reoccur as before, after... [liberation has occured]?" This is because no basis [foundation] exists for its re-arising. Samantabhadra's liberation into the basis [wisdom] itself and the yogi liberated through practicing the path are both devoid of any basis [foundation] for reverting back to becoming a cause, just like a person who has recovered from a plague or the fruit of the se tree.

He then states that the se tree is a particular tree which is poisonous to touch, causing blisters and swelling. However once recovered, one is then immune.

Lopon Tenzin Namdak also explains this principle of immunity:

Anyone who follows the teachings of the Buddhas will most likely attain results and purify negative karmic causes. Then that person will be like a man who has caught smallpox in the past; he will never catch it again because he is immune. The sickness of samsara will never come back. And this is the purpose of following the teachings.

and from Lopon Kunga Namdrol:

Buddhahood is a subtractive process; it means removing, gradually, obscurations of affliction and obscurations of knowledge. Since wisdom burns these obscurations away, in the end they have no causes for returning; and further, the causes for buddhahood are permanent leading to a permanent result.

Session Start: Sunday, August 17, 2008

(11:46 PM) Thusness:    anyway my non-dual luminosity has improved. :)
(11:46 PM) Thusness:    or more stabilized. :)
(11:46 PM) Thusness:    i can't tok to u when in mobile.
(11:46 PM) Thusness:    probably is because u r offline.

(12:11 AM) Thusness:    To understand what the buddha said, non-dual experience and insight must arise
(12:11 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:11 AM) Thusness:    And must stabilize up to a certain point
(12:12 AM) AEN:    oic
(12:12 AM) Thusness:    It is not easy to understand what buddha taught and the basic is most important
(12:14 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:15 AM) Thusness:    I hv told u that even With the arising of non-dual insight
(12:16 AM) Thusness:    There will be a period of desync.
(12:18 AM) Thusness:    after stage 5, practitioners more often than not rest in naked awareness
(12:18 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:18 AM) AEN:    desync that means views still dualistic/inherent?
(12:20 AM) Thusness:    before one reaches strong stability of non-dual luminosity it is not possible to see our nature as emptiness and teach in such
(12:21 AM) Thusness:    Clarity about anatta and DO
(12:21 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:21 AM) Thusness:    So u must treat the basic as most imp.
(12:23 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:23 AM) AEN:    ya namdrol said even dzogchen without understanding of DO just becomes another hinduism
(12:24 AM) Thusness:    Yes
(12:25 AM) Thusness:    Only one after strong and stable non-dual luminosity can see how precise r the teachings of buddha.

Session Start: Monday, August 18, 2008

(2:15 PM) AEN:    yesterday i meditated very late at midnight... i was already v tired that time and eyes like closing and i tot when i meditate i wld just fall asleep, but strangely when i meditate my mind become like very bright and aware... become totally awake. then i dun feel tired anymore. and i also feel i could drop away everything at that moment
(3:34 PM) AEN:    what do u tink of Element's explanation of mindfulness and awareness, http://www.buddhachat.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9891&page=6
(3:34 PM) AEN:    Yesterday, 06:24 PM
(11:41 AM) Thusness:    The experience is good but as a lay, it is not advisable to do that.  This is to prevent us from upsetting our biological clock.  I told you try not to practice awareness presence during sleeping hours, practice dropping instead (or dropping into total openness).
(11:41 AM) Thusness:    Good exchange between element and you.  Will talk to u tonight as there are several key points u need to take note.
(11:45 AM) AEN:    icic..
(11:56 AM) AEN:    btw i think i didnt try to be aware that time, i think it came quite naturally and by surprise
(11:57 AM) AEN:    oh ya and when i practice dropping gradually theres this sensation of letting go into total openness, feels like i become disappearing
(7:19 PM) Thusness:    'I' disappearing as in what sense?
(7:22 PM) AEN:    like into nothingness lor
(7:23 PM) Thusness:    no....
(7:23 PM) Thusness:    i go washroom first.
(7:23 PM) AEN:    ok
(7:24 PM) AEN:    a bit like fading into open space? no sense of me being there... until i notice it
(7:26 PM) AEN:    its different from the initial experience of presence cos theres still a sense of center in it, no thought but feels centered. but later is more like no center
(7:28 PM)    Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle
(7:28 PM) AEN:    its like nothingness yet is different from sleep?
(7:31 PM)    Thusness has changed his/her status to Online
(7:31 PM) Thusness:    all the 6 stages are actually telling u what is the true nature of our pristine awareness.
(7:32 PM) Thusness:    The mind initially will not be able to discern correctly what Pristine Awareness is.
(7:32 PM) AEN:    icic..
(7:33 PM) Thusness:    You must first understand, due to our views, the experiences are distorted.
(7:33 PM) Thusness:    so it is as if all these experiences are purified in each stage.
(7:33 PM) AEN:    oic..
(7:34 PM) Thusness:    The purpose of buddhism is to jump directly to stage 5 and enter into 6.
(7:34 PM) Thusness:    that is, if non-dual is experienced correctly, it is like 6.
(7:34 PM) Thusness:    as described in DO.
(7:34 PM) AEN:    icic..
(7:35 PM) Thusness:    or if non-dual is peaked it is like that and the understanding is as described by Buddha exhibiting the 3 seals and emptiness characteristics.
(7:35 PM) Thusness:    but if we are not clear, it appears to be as what element said 'Oneness'.
(7:36 PM) Thusness:    For the lay, it is very difficult to see pristine awareness as empty luminosity, DO.
(7:36 PM) AEN:    oic..
(7:37 PM) Thusness:    What is spirituality about?
(7:37 PM) AEN:    understanding our true nature?
(7:37 PM) Thusness:    what is meant by 'our'?
(7:38 PM) AEN:    means what we experience right now
(7:38 PM) AEN:    for conventional purpose :P but theres no 'we'
(7:38 PM) AEN:    lol
(7:38 PM) Thusness:    It is no separate I from the transience
(7:38 PM) AEN:    icic..
(7:39 PM) Thusness:    it is to experience 'I'.
(7:39 PM) Thusness:    the Eternal Witness, the source.
(7:39 PM) AEN:    oic
(7:39 PM) AEN:    but u said "It is no separate I from the transience"?
(7:39 PM) Thusness:    But what is this 'I'?
(7:40 PM) Thusness:    din I tell u that "I AM" is the Presence?
(7:40 PM) AEN:    ya
(7:40 PM) Thusness:    so when u say there is no 'I', you must know what it meant.
(7:40 PM) Thusness:    it is rather the right experience of ur true nature.
(7:41 PM) AEN:    icic..
(7:41 PM) Thusness:    progressing from stage 1 to 6 to naturalness.
(7:42 PM) Thusness:    However when someone speaks to u or u have some experiences of altered states of our consciousness, ur mind battled from its memory bank trying to categorize these experiences.
(7:42 PM) Thusness:    it attempts to conceptualize.
(7:42 PM) Thusness:    it is not allowing the experience to tell the whole stories.
(7:43 PM) AEN:    oic..
(7:43 PM) Thusness:    and it is very difficult to go beyond this.
(7:43 PM) Thusness:    many only reached the level of understanding of non-dual like stage 5.
(7:43 PM) Thusness:    And clearly there is this experience that is stage 5.
(7:44 PM) Thusness:    But there is also stage 6.
(7:44 PM) Thusness:    and one with correct 'understanding' is able to go to stage 6.
(7:44 PM) AEN:    icic..
(7:45 PM) Thusness:    When u talk about spirituality, u cannot talk about existence without Awareness.
(7:45 PM) Thusness:    That is science attempts to do that.
(7:46 PM) Thusness:    But in spirituality, this is not the case.
(7:46 PM) AEN:    ic ya
(7:46 PM) Thusness:    u cannot mix the 2.
(7:46 PM) Thusness:    don't get confused.
(7:46 PM) Thusness:    u cannot deep in u want to understand as if Pristine Awareness doesn't exist in spirituality.
(7:47 PM) AEN:    icic yea
(7:47 PM) Thusness:    This also applies to Buddhism.
(7:47 PM) AEN:    icic..
(7:48 PM) Thusness:    It is not a teaching about objective existence but phenomena.
(7:48 PM) Thusness:    It is a teaching about our pristine awareness.
(7:48 PM) AEN:    oic..
(7:48 PM) Thusness:    i go makan first.
(7:48 PM) AEN:    ok

(8:00 PM) Thusness:    So it is just my experience and opinion.
(8:01 PM) Thusness:    Because science has such powerful impact on modern society, u will unknowingly be affected.
(8:01 PM) Thusness:    and when understanding DO, u will be confused.
(8:02 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:02 PM) AEN:    does that mean ppl in the past can understand DO more easily?
(8:02 PM) Thusness:    possible. :P
(8:02 PM) Thusness:    anyway focus more on ur experience.
(8:03 PM) Thusness:    so when u see DO, try not to view it as independent of our pristine awareness as if it is talking about objective existence.
(8:03 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:03 PM) Thusness:    This is just my opinion and experience. :)
(8:04 PM) Thusness:    Next what is mindfulness?
(8:04 PM) AEN:    means bare attention of experience?
(8:04 PM) Thusness:    what did Element said about "Mindfulness"?
(8:04 PM) AEN:    more like recollecting something
(8:05 PM) Thusness:    So in your opinion, is this a correct description of mindfulness?
(8:05 PM) AEN:    dun tink so
(8:06 PM) AEN:    actually
(8:06 PM) AEN:    mindfulness has a quality of 'remembering' but its not like memory
(8:06 PM) AEN:    more like coming back to attention thats all
(8:06 PM) Thusness:    not good enough
(8:06 PM) Thusness:    what else?
(8:07 PM) AEN:    mindfulness is actually our natural state.. like what ven gunaratana said,
(8:07 PM) AEN:   

When you first become aware of something, there is a fleeting instant of pure awareness just before you conceptualize the thing, before you identify it. That is a stage of Mindfulness. Ordinarily, this stage is very short. It is that flashing split second just as you focus your eyes on the thing, just as you focus your mind on the thing, just before you objectify it, clamp down on it mentally and segregate it from the rest of existence. It takes place just before you start thinking about it--before your mind says, "Oh, it's a dog." That flowing, soft-focused moment of pure awareness is Mindfulness. In that brief flashing mind-moment you experience a thing as an un-thing. You experience a softly flowing moment of pure experience that is interlocked with the rest of reality, not separate from it. Mindfulness is very much like what you see with your peripheral vision as opposed to the hard focus of normal or central vision. Yet this moment of soft, unfocused, awareness contains a very deep sort of knowing that is lost as soon as you focus your mind and objectify the object into a thin
(8:07 PM) AEN:    . In the process of ordinary perception, the Mindfulness step is so fleeting as to be unobservable. We have developed the habit of squandering our attention on all the remaining steps, focusing on the perception, recognizing the perception, labeling it, and most of all, getting involved in a long string of symbolic thought about it. That original moment of Mindfulness is rapidly passed over. It is the purpose of the above mentioned Vipassana (or insight) meditation to train us to prolong that moment of awareness.
(8:09 PM) Thusness:    What about the stuff Element said?
(8:10 PM) AEN:    he speaks about mindfulness as if something we can direct according to our intentions
(8:10 PM) AEN:    but i tink mindfulness is more like waking up from our conceptualization process to what is present
(8:11 PM) AEN:    ya and he said mindfulness is like a supervisor
(8:11 PM) AEN:    like watching the mind or something
(8:12 PM) Thusness:    mindfulness as recollection
(8:12 PM) Thusness:    but he further clarifies mindfulness as remembering to be in the present moment.
(8:12 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:13 PM) Thusness:    so what has that got to do with the 3 seals?
(8:14 PM) AEN:    the present moment exhibits 3 seals?
(8:14 PM) Thusness:    and he brought up a very important topic, 'oneness vs dispassionate'
(8:15 PM) AEN:    oic ya actually i think its the same
(8:15 PM) AEN:    i wanted to reply yesterday but no time, but i saved some of the things i wrote... going to edit first
(8:15 PM) AEN:    haven edited

(8:19 PM) Thusness:    first tell me more about mindfulness
(8:20 PM) AEN:    hmm wat about it
(8:20 PM) Thusness:    what can u learn from Element and what you know
(8:21 PM) AEN:    hmm
(8:21 PM) AEN:    mindfulness is like recollecting what is present?
(8:22 PM) Thusness:    how can u recollect what is present?
(8:23 PM) AEN:    means not forgetting present moment and getting lost in thoughts?
(8:23 PM) Thusness:    no
(8:24 PM) AEN:    recollecting just means paying attention?
(8:24 PM) Thusness:    no
(8:25 PM) AEN:    hmm
(8:25 PM) AEN:    means focusing on an object and keeping it in mind?
(8:25 PM) Thusness:    no
(8:26 PM) AEN:    dunnu leh
(8:26 PM) AEN:    lol
(8:27 PM) Thusness:    mindfulness is a form of practice
(8:27 PM) AEN:    by noticing that you are not present?
(8:27 PM) Thusness:    what is so great about being 'Now'?
(8:28 PM) AEN:    because 'now' is the only reality?
(8:28 PM) Thusness:    so what is so great about 'Reality'?
(8:29 PM) AEN:    its clear and liberating?
(8:30 PM) Thusness:    ???
(8:30 PM) Thusness:    who tell u that?
(8:30 PM) Thusness:    Buddha tell u that being in the 'Now' moment u will be liberated?
(8:30 PM) AEN:    no
(8:30 PM) Thusness:    then why u say that?
(8:31 PM) AEN:    hmm
(8:31 PM) AEN:    by clearly perceiving the true nature of the 'now' moment then there is liberation?
(8:31 PM) Thusness:    who tell u that?
(8:31 PM) Thusness:    no such thing.
(8:31 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:31 PM) Thusness:    It was derived.
(8:32 PM) Thusness:    By some practitioners and masters.
(8:32 PM) AEN:    being "now" means going pre symbolic?
(8:32 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:33 PM) Thusness:    first Element spoke about recollection.
(8:33 PM) Thusness:    is mindfulness about recollection?
(8:33 PM) Thusness:    or being pre-conceptual and bare.
(8:33 PM) AEN:    i tink all?
(8:33 PM) Thusness:    all as in?
(8:34 PM) AEN:    its recollection, pre conceptual and bare
(8:34 PM) Thusness:    meaning?
(8:34 PM) AEN:    ven gunaratana said
(8:34 PM) AEN:   

(A) Mindfulness reminds you of what you are supposed to be doing . In meditation, you put your attention on one item. When your mind wanders from this focus, it is Mindfulness that reminds you that your mind is wandering and what you are supposed to be doing. It is Mindfulness that brings your mind back to the object of meditation. All of this occurs instantaneously and without internal dialogue. Mindfulness is not thinking. Repeated practice in meditation establishes this function as a mental habit which then carries over into the rest of your life. A serious meditator pays bare attention to occurrences all the time, day in, day out, whether formally sitting in meditation or not. This is a very lofty ideal towards which those who meditate may be working for a period of years or even decades. Our habit of getting stuck in thought is years old, and that habit will hang on in the most tenacious manner. The only way out is to be equally persistent in the cultivation of constant Mindfulness. When Mindfulness is present, you will notice when you become stuck in your thought patterns. It
(8:34 PM) AEN:     It is that very noticing which allows you to back out of the thought process and free yourself from it. Mindfulness then returns your attention to its proper focus. If you are meditating at that moment, then your focus will be the formal object of meditation. If your are not in formal meditation, it will be just a pure application of bare attention itself, just a pure noticing of whatever comes up without getting involved--"Ah, this comes up...and now this, and now this... and now this".

Mindfulness is at one and the same time both bare attention itself and the function of reminding us to pay bare attention if we have ceased to do so. Bare attention is noticing. It re- establishes itself simply by noticing that it has not been present. As soon as you are noticing that you have not been noticing, then by definition you are noticing and then you are back again to paying bare attention.

Mindfulness creates its own distinct feeling in consciousness. It has a flavor--a light, clear, energetic flavor. Conscious thought is heavy by comparison, ponderous and picky. But here again, these a
(8:35 PM) AEN:    hmm
(8:35 PM) AEN:    mindfulness becomes a mental habit?
(8:35 PM) Thusness:    mindfulness leading to enlightenment?
(8:35 PM) AEN:    huh
(8:36 PM) AEN:    i mean mindfulness serves as recollection when it becomes a mental habit?
(8:36 PM) Thusness:    What is the relationship between Mindfulness and Enlightenment?
(8:37 PM) AEN:    u need mindfulness to see things as they are, like perceive the 3 characteristics
(8:38 PM) Thusness:    closer...what is mindfulness?
(8:38 PM) AEN:    means bare attention?
(8:38 PM) Thusness:    bare is pre-symbolic like being naked in awareness.
(8:39 PM) AEN:    icic ya
(8:40 PM) Thusness:    now getting back to where u stop after ur mind wonders is not the purpose of mindfulness.
(8:40 PM) Thusness:    every form of meditation requires us to do that.
(8:40 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:40 PM) AEN:    so u mean
(8:40 PM) AEN:    mindfulness is not recollection?
(8:41 PM) Thusness:    u do not recollect present moment
(8:41 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:41 PM) Thusness:    what has it got to do with the 3 characteristics?
(8:41 PM) Thusness:    the seals?
(8:42 PM) AEN:    recollecting itself does not mean one perceives 3 characteristics
(8:42 PM) AEN:    but only when one becomes observant
(8:42 PM) Thusness:    ai yoo...
(8:42 PM) Thusness:    Buddha spoke of the dharma seals.
(8:43 PM) Thusness:    sounded simple but difficult to understand
(8:43 PM) Thusness:    we cannot understand the wisdom behind it
(8:43 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:44 PM) Thusness:    mindfulness has several characteristics
(8:44 PM) Thusness:    in which bare attention or being naked and non-conceptual awareness is important
(8:45 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:45 PM) Thusness:    2nd is it must remind (not recollect)
(8:45 PM) Thusness:    remind of what?
(8:45 PM) AEN:    present moment? or what you are doing?
(8:46 PM) AEN:    like breathing meditation then remind of that
(8:46 PM) Thusness:    no
(8:46 PM) Thusness:    what is there to remind
(8:46 PM) Thusness:    when u r bare in attention, u r in the present
(8:46 PM) AEN:    ya the reminding serves its purpose only when one becomes lost in thoughts, i tink
(8:46 PM) AEN:    hmm
(8:47 PM) AEN:    so u're saying reminding = being bare in attention?
(8:47 PM) Thusness:    told u that is in all practices
(8:47 PM) Thusness:    nothing to talk about.
(8:47 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:47 PM) Thusness:    remind u constantly of the dharma seals.
(8:47 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:47 PM) Thusness:    when u r bare in attention, does it mean that u know the dharma seals?
(8:48 PM) Thusness:    when u r in non-dual, does it mean that u know the 3 characteristics?
(8:48 PM) AEN:    i thinks perceiving 3 characteristics is also a matter of clarity?
(8:48 PM) Thusness:    all experiences are distorted due to ignorance and propensities.
(8:49 PM) Thusness:    for u, u say u r Eternal Witness as if u r constant and everything flow even now.
(8:49 PM) Thusness:    Even after reading so much and countless conversation with me.
(8:49 PM) Thusness:    so isn't it not clear yet?
(8:49 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:50 PM) AEN:    so being bare in attention doesnt mean one perceives the 3 characteristics
(8:50 PM) AEN:    bcos of propensities?
(8:50 PM) Thusness:    even now...even after years of reading and summarizing and discussions?
(8:50 PM) Thusness:    yes
(8:50 PM) Thusness:    we do not know
(8:50 PM) Thusness:    therefore we need to remind ourselves of the seals.
(8:50 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:50 PM) Thusness:    why?
(8:51 PM) Thusness:    because insight and wisdom have not arisen.
(8:51 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:51 PM) Thusness:    therefore u practice mindfulness
(8:51 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:52 PM) Thusness:    u attempt to become non-conceptual, bare but the experience will still be distorted.
(8:53 PM) Thusness:    now observing phenomena, seeing them arise and pass away, 'dispassion' arise
(8:53 PM) Thusness:    does that mean that u seek what that does not arise and pass away?
(8:54 PM) AEN:    depends on whether propensities is reacting?
(8:54 PM) AEN:    or whether theres right understanding
(8:54 PM) Thusness:    right understanding means u seek or don't seek?
(8:54 PM) AEN:    dont seek
(8:54 PM) Thusness:    so what is important?
(8:55 PM) AEN:    insight?
(8:55 PM) Thusness:    insight into what?
(8:55 PM) AEN:    the 3 seals?
(8:55 PM) Thusness:    or our empty nature
(8:55 PM) Thusness:    we come to that later
(8:55 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:57 PM) Thusness:    This is very important.
(8:58 PM) Thusness:    emphasized the 3 characteristics in vipassana because their clear seeing causes something called dispassion and dispassion is the cause of Nibbana.
(8:59 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:00 PM) Thusness:    Remember wat I told u and truth about becoming so sick that u gave up everything?
(9:00 PM) Thusness:    suffering causes so much pain that u gave up?
(9:01 PM) AEN:    not so sure :P
(9:03 PM) Thusness:    go and read what i told Isis also.
(9:03 PM) Thusness:    and all the discussions about mindfulness relates to what I told u about the 2 practices i told u to do.
(9:04 PM) AEN:    dropping and self inquiry?
(9:05 PM) Thusness:    if u can understand what i said and the purpose, u will know what i meant and what i am trying to teach u from beginning.
(9:05 PM) Thusness:    that is continue to recall and summarize non-dual and emptiness
(9:06 PM) Thusness:    to have clarity in concepts and the meaning of it.
(9:06 PM) Thusness:    to have the non-dual experience
(9:06 PM) Thusness:    and lastly dropping
(9:07 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:07 PM) AEN:    by recall u mean mindfulness?
(9:07 PM) AEN:    btw wat did u tell isis
(9:08 PM) Thusness:    dropping is about dispassion but it is not about dispassion but to arise a total willingness to let go.
(9:08 PM) Thusness:    because grasping is 'self' in disguise.
(9:08 PM) Thusness:    but non-dual experience will not be understood in terms of the 3 characteristics
(9:08 PM) Thusness:    in terms of its empty nature
(9:11 PM) AEN:    means one can have the experience of dispassion through dropping but not comprehending the 3 seals or emptiness?
(9:11 PM) Thusness:    so bare and being non-conceptual will not allow u to have the right experience of non duality
(9:11 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:11 PM) AEN:    that is through recollecting or being mindful of the 3 seals right
(9:11 PM) AEN:    or vipassana
(9:11 PM) AEN:    *reminding
(9:12 PM) Thusness:    vipassana must go with right view
(9:12 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:17 PM) Thusness:    So what are the purposes of the 3 practices?
(9:19 PM) AEN:    dropping is to give rise to the total willingness to let go of the self, vipassana is to give rise to the insight of the 3 seals or emptiness, self inquiry is the experience the "I AM" and show how strong the propensity is?
(9:20 PM) Thusness:    It is like the dispassion.  That is very important.
(9:21 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:21 PM) Thusness:    Oneness is very important too.
(9:21 PM) Thusness:    Or non-dual luminosity :)
(9:21 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:21 PM) AEN:    thats experienced through vipassana rite?
(9:22 PM) Thusness:    Understand oneness from DO perspective.
(9:23 PM) Thusness:    And non-dual presence through right view and experience of presence.
(9:24 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:25 PM) Thusness:    These 3 aspects must go hand in hand
(9:25 PM) Thusness:    There is no point arguing
(9:26 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:26 PM) Thusness:    There can be no true understanding of Buddha's teachings without non-dual insight.
(9:27 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:28 PM) Thusness:    To understand the 3 relationships, u need to practice hard
(9:29 PM) Thusness:    Don't be afraid of right views.
(9:29 PM) AEN:    wat u mean by afraid of right views
(9:29 PM) Thusness:    It will help.
(9:29 PM) AEN:    u mean dont be afraid of having (right) views?
(9:30 PM) Thusness:    Don't be trapped by non-conceptuality
(9:30 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:30 PM) Thusness:    Yes
(9:32 PM) Thusness:    Having right views will sync non-dual luminosity with that 'dispassion' (total willingness to let go)
(9:33 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:33 PM) Thusness:    The experience of Presence and non-dual experience can lead to very strong attachment of the Ultimate Reality
(9:34 PM) AEN:    even after realising non duality?
(9:34 PM) Thusness:    Yes
(9:34 PM) Thusness:    But not anatta
(9:34 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:34 PM) AEN:    y attachment
(9:35 PM) Thusness:    because of ignorance
(9:35 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:35 PM) Thusness:    Of our empty nature
(9:36 PM) Thusness:    Therefore advaita is not Buddhism
(9:36 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:36 PM) AEN:    btw buddha say dispassion is linked to disenchantment is linked to insight
(9:36 PM) AEN:    "Dispassion, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment' should be the reply.

"Disenchantment, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' should be the reply.
(9:37 PM) Thusness:    The arising of 'dispassion' is very important but must be correctly understood
(9:37 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:38 PM) Thusness:    U should take that para seriously
(9:39 PM) Thusness:    But Oneness and non-dual should not be overlooked.
(9:39 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:40 PM) Thusness:    Missing either one, missed the point.
(9:41 PM) Thusness:    Therefore the 3 things I told u.
(9:41 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:42 PM) AEN:    wat are the 3 things
(9:44 PM) Thusness:    U tell me.
(9:45 PM) AEN:    dispassion, oneness, DO?
(9:46 PM) Thusness:    What I tell u to practice?
(9:50 PM) AEN:    dropping, vipassana, self inquiry?
(9:51 PM) Thusness:    Summary of non-duality and emptiness
(9:52 PM) Thusness:    Having right view
(9:52 PM) Thusness:    How many times must I tell U?
(9:53 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:54 PM) Thusness:    Without the right view, even with non-dual experience, wisdom of nature will not arise.
(9:54 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:56 PM) AEN:    so the 3 are dropping, non dual presence, and summarising?
(9:57 PM) Thusness:    Yes
(9:57 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:15 PM) AEN:    what is the difference between non dual and anatta
(10:19 PM) Thusness:    It is the right understanding of non-dual experience free from the subject/Object and inherent views.
(10:20 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:20 PM) AEN:    that means one can realise pathless non dual but yet not be free from subject/object and inherent views?
(10:22 PM) Thusness:    Huh?
(10:22 PM) Thusness:    I hv written and told u so many times
(10:23 PM) Thusness:    then what is emptiness for?
(10:26 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:26 PM) AEN:    but can u realise non dual and yet not be free from subject/object views?
(10:26 PM) AEN:    or u mean inherency
(10:27 PM) Thusness:    Yes
(10:27 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:27 PM) Thusness:    U can have non dual experience but not non-dual insight
(10:28 PM) AEN:    so anatta actually includes understanding of DO and emptiness rite
(10:28 PM) AEN:    non dual insight u mean insight into pathless nonduality or insight into anatta
(10:28 PM) Thusness:    Which is clarity of what is the nature of our pristine awareness
(10:28 PM) Thusness:    It is the same.
(10:28 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:29 PM) Thusness:    when one spoke of no-self, one says there is no subject/Object split
(10:30 PM) Thusness:    One understands
(10:30 PM) Thusness:    One realises that there isn't such a split.
(10:31 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:32 PM) Thusness:    But doesn't mean there is clarity
(10:32 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:37 PM) Thusness:    Advaita realises that there is no split.
(10:37 PM) Thusness:    But the grasping of the source is still there.
(10:38 PM) Thusness:    However in anatta there is no grasping of anything.
(10:38 PM) AEN:    how to grasp source when its realised to be all manifestation
(10:42 PM) Thusness:    as long as one is under the propensity of Self, there is grasping of permanence.
(10:43 PM) AEN:    oic ya even sailor bob adamson talks about awareness as permanent/changeless
(10:44 PM) AEN:    though he said "everything in essence is that changeless natural knowing--nothing else"
(10:45 PM) Thusness:    Although the experience is there, one is unable to fully go beyond this dualistic bond.
(10:45 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:45 PM) Thusness:    Thus it is subtle and deep.
(10:45 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:46 PM) Thusness:    The real essence that is empty of inherent existence is the cause of non-dual insight
(10:48 PM) Thusness:    the practitioner will not be able to overcome that bond
(10:49 PM) Thusness:    Even after the non-dual experience
(10:49 PM) Thusness:    Even after deep experience
(10:50 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:51 PM) Thusness:    Unless that inherent/dualistic view Is completely replaced in its inmost level
(10:51 PM) AEN:    through emptiness?
(10:52 PM) Thusness:    Therefore I said there is a desync
(10:52 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:53 PM) Thusness:    Unable to go beyond it, practitioner prefer to rest in naked awareness
(10:54 PM) Thusness:    The grasping will still be there because the root cause is still there.
(10:54 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:54 PM) AEN:    grasping on what
(10:54 PM) AEN:    source?
(10:55 PM) Thusness:    But one having non-dual and realises our emptiness nature is not afraid of having right view.
(10:55 PM) Thusness:    Yes source.
(10:55 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:56 PM) Thusness:    But understand that it is a raft that serves as the antidote to dissolve inherent view.
(10:57 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:58 PM) Thusness:    From it one gradually replaces inherent view and experiences nonlocality
(10:59 PM) AEN:    means no sense of 'being here'?
(10:59 PM) Thusness:    Because there is no need to hold on to anything in the deepest level.
(10:59 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:59 PM) Thusness:    No this nor that
(10:59 PM) Thusness:    Here nor there
(11:00 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:00 PM) Thusness:    Dissolve any inherent view, there is no returning nor going
(11:01 PM) Thusness:    The experience of non-dual is refined
(11:01 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:01 PM) Thusness:    The source is dropped
(11:01 PM) AEN:    btw u realised DO/emptiness by contemplating on the buddha's verse 'this is, that is'?
(11:01 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:02 PM) Thusness:    No
(11:02 PM) AEN:    oic then
(11:02 PM) Thusness:    Because there is the truthfulness in me...Hehe
(11:03 PM) AEN:    wat u mean
(11:03 PM) Thusness:    My non-dual stage 5 does not sync in terms of view
(11:05 PM) Thusness:    Therefore I continue to have further clarity in non-dual experience and compare with Buddha's teachings
(11:06 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:06 PM) AEN:    u read the sutras?
(11:06 PM) Thusness:    When deep in my mind I require no more subject/Object framework, my luminosity becomes clear.
(11:07 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:08 PM) Thusness:    I can see the teachings with deeper clarity.
(11:09 PM) Thusness:    There is no holding of any views
(11:09 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:10 PM) Thusness:    It is just intuiting it is so.
(11:10 PM) AEN:    oic..
(2:09 AM) AEN:    truthz sent me this link to a video explanation of heart sutra, what u tink: http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=3173479
(2:13 AM) AEN:    thats still non duality as a stage right?
(2:30 AM) AEN:    i think it describing stage 2 rite
(12:39 PM) Thusness:    The understanding is stage 2 but the experience is stage 5.
(12:39 PM) Thusness:    therefore it is advaita sort of understanding.
(12:39 PM) Thusness:    http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=3173479
(12:39 PM) Thusness:    non-dual insight.
(12:39 PM) Thusness:    not to misunderstand that the master doesn't know what is non-dual or emptiness.
(12:39 PM) Thusness:    there is deep clarity. :)

Session Start: Friday, August 22, 2008

(12:29 AM) Thusness:     U must watch the second video
(12:29 AM) AEN:    which one
(12:29 AM) AEN:    the one that explains oneness rite
(12:30 AM) Thusness:    And know the difference between Advaita non-dual and buddhism anatta
(12:30 AM) Thusness:    Not only that.
(12:30 AM) AEN:    u mean the second or third video
(12:31 AM) Thusness:    Second and third
(12:31 AM) AEN:    btw the video is advaita non dual rite
(12:31 AM) Thusness:    Second I watched liao.
(12:31 AM) AEN:    icic
(12:31 AM) AEN:    the third one is talking about wat.. momentum?
(12:31 AM) Thusness:    The cartoon Yes...
(12:31 AM) AEN:    icic
(12:32 AM) Thusness:    The second is much deeper.
(12:32 AM) AEN:    btw is that still stage based or like stage 2?
(12:32 AM) AEN:    u mean the third video?
(12:32 AM) Thusness:    The url I posted u.
(12:33 AM) AEN:    huh which one
(12:33 AM) AEN:    wait ah
(12:33 AM) AEN:    the url u posted leads to the chanting :P
(12:33 AM) AEN:    the first video
(12:34 AM) AEN:    u're talking about the donkey one or wat
(12:34 AM) Thusness:    ???? (Yuan Yin Lao Ren)
(12:34 AM) Thusness:    No
(12:35 AM) Thusness:    the second explanations
(12:35 AM) Thusness:    I will watch all of it.
(12:35 AM) AEN:    wait
(12:35 AM) Thusness:    If I got time.
(12:35 AM) AEN:    the one u said is in the same series rite?
(12:36 AM) Thusness:    Yes
(12:37 AM) AEN:    i cant find what ???? leh :P first one chanting, second one is the oneness, third one is the donkey, fourth is chanting beads
(12:37 AM) AEN:    fifth is spider
(12:38 AM) Thusness:    Then u posted wrongly on the buddhism forum.
(12:38 AM) AEN:    o.0
(12:38 AM) AEN:    then what u clicked.. lol
(12:38 AM) AEN:    u said in the same series rite?
(12:38 AM) Thusness:    Too bad.  He is the level of practitioner I m looking for.
(12:38 AM) Thusness:    But dead liao.
(12:38 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:39 AM) AEN:    wait
(12:39 AM) AEN:    u mean the ???? video is the cartoon series?
(12:39 AM) AEN:    i mean
(12:39 AM) AEN:    not*
(12:39 AM) Thusness:    No
(12:39 AM) Thusness:    Not cartoon.
(12:39 AM) AEN:    ooh
(12:39 AM) AEN:    then i wrong liao
(12:40 AM) AEN:    btw the cartoon u said stage 2 understanding but stage 5 experience... then is that pathless?
(12:41 AM) Thusness:    No
(12:41 AM) Thusness:    The cartoon is not about emptiness
(12:41 AM) AEN:    icic
(12:42 AM) Thusness:    Some explanations r still ok
(12:42 AM) AEN:    but is it pathless or stage like experience
(12:43 AM) Thusness:    Not pathless
(12:43 AM) AEN:    icic
(12:44 AM) Thusness:    That is just my view.
(12:44 AM) Thusness:    U just hv to know.
(12:44 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:44 AM) AEN:    btw the ???? isit a 20 minute video?
(12:45 AM) Thusness:    Longer than that
(12:45 AM) Thusness:    Think abt an hour.
(12:46 AM) AEN:    aiya u send me wrong URL just now :P
(12:46 AM) AEN:    send me back to the cartoon.. hahaha
(12:46 AM) Thusness:    If u can understand what he said, u will understand the essence of 5 and 6.
(12:46 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:46 AM) AEN:    he also describe stage 6?
(12:47 AM) Thusness:    Not describe but direct experience.
(12:47 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:48 AM) Thusness:    One that broke the stage 5 and understand 6 but no philosophical concepts
(12:48 AM) Thusness:    Direct experience
(12:48 AM) AEN:    oic.. u mean he didnt use emptiness as raft?
(12:49 AM) Thusness:    I dunno
(12:49 AM) AEN:    oic
(12:49 AM) Thusness:    Got to listen more.
(12:49 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:50 AM) Thusness:    he is the sort of practitioner I seek for.
(12:50 AM) Thusness:    Self liberation
(12:51 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:55 AM)    Thusness is now Offline
(12:58 AM) AEN:    btw the cartoons are not from ???? leh :P
(1:58 AM) AEN:    ???? said he go pure land: ??????????????,?????????,??????????”,??,????????,
(1:58 AM) AEN:    btw he vajrayana practitioner?
(2:45 AM) AEN:    ahaha last part a bit funny, someone thought he attained enlightenment then call the master, the master told him u havent attain enlightenment yet :P http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=1672155&iid=9857580
(2:50 AM) AEN:    the master seems to recommend chanting and rebirth in pure land more than meditation
(3:20 AM) AEN:    http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=1672155&iid=9857580 -- video 19, 14:00 minute onwards, the master talk about shen hsiu's poem on the mirror is still grasping on form, hui neng's poem on mirror without stand is grasping on formless... and he made his own poem, ?????,?????
?????, ?????
(3:22 AM) AEN:    ????: ???:“??????”???????????:“?????!”?????,???????????,??“????????”??????????????:“?????,??????”?????,?????????!“?????,?????”?????,????????????,?????,????,????!???????????????????
(3:40 PM) AEN:    btw a few days ago i dreamt that u sent me a online video link and tell me go watch, then 2 days later u really send me a video link.. hahaha
(3:42 PM) Thusness:    from non-dual to anatta and to emptiness.  You must have clarity.
(3:42 PM) AEN:    icic..
(3:42 PM) AEN:    i just finished watching the first video
(3:43 PM) Thusness:    the second one is important
(3:43 PM) AEN:    oh u finished the part 2?
(3:43 PM) AEN:    the one that started with tantric practice one
(3:43 PM) Thusness:    then tell me why is it so important
(3:44 PM) Thusness:    then u have to refine ur understanding of non-duality from ken wilber and advaita understanding and buddhism approach.
(3:44 PM) Thusness:    When u have the experience later, u will know what i meant.
(3:44 PM) Thusness:    but it is not easy.
(3:44 PM) AEN:    oic..
(3:45 PM) Thusness:    no self from the 5 aggregates to 18 dhatus to DO to Empty Luminosity.
(3:45 PM) AEN:    icic..
(3:47 PM) AEN:    btw u said the 2nd video
(3:47 PM) AEN:    isit the one that started about tantric practice
(3:49 PM) Thusness:    36
(3:50 PM) Thusness:    yes
(3:51 PM) AEN:    ya that one it started discussing about tantric practice
(3:51 PM) AEN:    i haven watch yet
(3:57 PM)    Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle
(3:58 PM) AEN:    i later then watch..
(3:58 PM)    Thusness has changed his/her status to Online
(10:58 PM) AEN:    the 2nd one is impt cos it incorporates emptiness rite, it talks about non duality but also explains that all forms are empty and impermanent
(11:01 PM) Thusness:    Not only that.
(11:01 PM) Thusness:    Compare what he said abt stage 6.
(11:03 PM) Thusness:    Anyway I wrote something about stage 6.
(11:03 PM) Thusness:    For u to have a clearer understanding.
(11:04 PM) Thusness:    Why it is very important to have clear understanding of emptiness
(11:05 PM) Thusness:    How u should move from non-dual to buddhist anatta, DO and emptiness.
(11:06 PM) AEN:    icic.. ok
(11:08 PM) Thusness:    After stabilizing non-dual experience, it is very important to establish firm view on Emptiness.
(11:08 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:09 PM) Thusness:    Don't be afraid of establishing firm view of emptiness and DO.
(11:10 PM) Thusness:    Don't be worried of being non-conceptual.
(11:10 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:11 PM) Thusness:    Non-dual experience will lead u to non-conceptuality, to naked awareness naturally.
(11:12 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:13 PM) Thusness:    But for prajna wisdom to arise, establish firmly ur understanding of DO and emptiness.
(11:14 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:16 PM) Thusness:    After understanding of non-dual experience from the Buddha's teachings of anatta, DO and emptiness.  u will become very clear.
(11:17 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:17 PM) Thusness:    It needs few years to understand non-dual from Buddha's teachings.
(11:18 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:18 PM) Thusness:    The pre-requisite is a stabilized non-dual experience.
(11:19 PM) AEN:    oic ya longchen also realised emptiness after stabilizing his non dual experience and also 2-3 years after first realising non dual rite
(11:22 PM) Thusness:    you will understand why impermanence yet no movement correctly.
(11:22 PM) Thusness:    Yes...
(11:22 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:24 PM) Thusness:    But still need to incorporate non-dual experience into anatta, emptiness and DO.  This will need another 2-3 yrs.
(11:24 PM) Thusness:    Will write something about it.
(11:25 PM) Thusness:    It is very important.
(11:25 PM) AEN:    u mean it will take another 2-3 years after stabilized non-dual experience?
(11:25 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:29 PM) Thusness:    after stabilizing non-dual experience for 2y,  another 2-3 yrs r needed to understand emptiness aspect of our non-dual luminosity.
(11:29 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:30 PM) AEN:    so longchen is only beginning to understand emptiness and still needs a few years?
(11:30 PM) Thusness:    Understand as in direct experience of the DO empty nature.
(11:30 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:30 PM) Thusness:    Yes and that is just the beginning
(11:30 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:32 PM) Thusness:    I told u there will be a period of desync and practitioner will find it easier to rest in naked awareness
(11:32 PM) Thusness:    But he will miss something valuable.
(11:33 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:34 PM) Thusness:    not many can escape these phases.
(11:34 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:35 PM) Thusness:    The video u need to hear a few times.
(11:35 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:35 PM) Thusness:    Compare it with the comments on stage 6.
(11:35 PM) AEN:    ok
(11:36 PM) Thusness:    Know that insight must arise what 'feeling'
(11:37 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:37 PM) Thusness:    What is most important in video 2?
(11:38 PM) AEN:    emptiness?
(11:39 PM) Thusness:    What emptiness?
(11:39 PM) Thusness:    Which phrase?
(11:42 PM) AEN:    many phrases :P
(11:43 PM) Thusness:    Like?
(11:46 PM) Thusness:    Don't paste whatever I told in the forum.
(11:46 PM) AEN:    ok
(11:46 PM) AEN:    i cant remember wat phrase liao
(11:49 PM) Thusness:    Within a short video, there are some very important advices that only true practitioner that has intuitive insight
(11:50 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:50 PM) Thusness:    Into emptiness and non-dual insight know
(11:50 PM) AEN:    oic..
(2:12 PM) Thusness:    what is the url for the buddhachat regarding ur conversation with Element?
(2:13 PM) AEN:    http://www.buddhachat.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9891&page=6
(2:13 PM) AEN:    havent posted since.. no time
(2:13 PM) Thusness:    haha...ic. :)
(2:13 PM) Thusness:    don't think of longchen non-conceptuality first.
(2:14 PM) Thusness:    u should focus on the deepening ur clarity of advaita non-duality to buddhist form of non-duality aka anatta
(2:14 PM) Thusness:    then emptiness
(2:15 PM) Thusness:    then experience this until the entire teaching of Buddha becomes so clear to u.
(2:15 PM) AEN:    icic..
(2:15 PM) Thusness:    longchen's phase is also the result after understanding Emptiness
(2:16 PM) Thusness:    and that understanding of Emptiness is aligning with his non-dual experiences
(2:16 PM) Thusness:    therefore he is into right understanding of stage 6.
(2:17 PM) Thusness:    but stage 6 is the right 'view' of non-duality and it has to burn the bonds of the senses first.
(2:17 PM) Thusness:    then into non-registration of impressions.
(2:17 PM) Thusness:    it is not suitable for u.
(2:17 PM) AEN:    oic..
(2:18 PM) Thusness:    because his non-dual experiences have stabilized, the understanding of emptiness helps in articulating all his non-dual experiences
(2:18 PM) Thusness:    that is the arising of non-dual insight
(2:19 PM) Thusness:    later it will become so clear as moment to moment of experience and the subtle 'bond' of the 6 senses gradually dissolve
(2:19 PM) Thusness:    into one DO experience.
(2:20 PM) AEN:    icic..
(2:20 PM) Thusness:    so for you, u should first understand with clarity and know the various subtle stages and clarity of the differences.
(2:21 PM) Thusness:    Even after aligning non-dual experience and emptiness view, the dissolving of the bond on each sense organ differs.
(2:22 PM) Thusness:    a practitioner starts to walk out of meditation and find it easier to get authenticated in activities
(2:22 PM) Thusness:    in opening eyes
(2:22 PM) Thusness:    he walks and feel as if as the ground reality
(2:23 PM) Thusness:    but when he/she returns to sitting quietly in meditation, that non-dual experience is gone.
(2:23 PM) Thusness:    or is not that obvious
(2:23 PM) Thusness:    that is what i meant by the subtle bond...
(2:23 PM) AEN:    why when sitting the experience is gone
(2:37 PM) Thusness:    Actually it is because we become more aware of the 'center'
(2:37 PM) Thusness:    that is the 'center' is still there
(2:37 PM) Thusness:    that 'center' becomes more obvious when we sit.
(2:38 PM) Thusness:    that tendency becomes more obvious.
(2:38 PM) AEN:    ooh no wonder u said
(2:38 PM) AEN:   

1. There is a mirror reflecting dust. (“I AM”)     

     Mirror bright is experienced but distorted.  Dualistic and Inherent seeing.

2. Dust is required for the mirror to see itself.

    Non-Dualistic but Inherent seeing.  (Beginning of non-dual insight)

3. Dust has always been the mirror ( The mirror here is seen as a whole)

   Non-Dualistic and non- inherent insight.
(2:38 PM) AEN:    btw the center is just a bond?
(2:38 PM) Thusness:    just but the 'bond' is still strong
(2:39 PM) Thusness:    there is some points u have to take note.
(2:39 PM) Thusness:    a person after stabilizing non-dual experience and understanding emptiness
(2:39 PM) Thusness:    is different from one that is not.
(2:40 PM) Thusness:    that is, have no fear of establishing firm view on Emptiness especially for a non-dual experiencer
(2:40 PM) Thusness:    because it becomes more of a medicine for the deeply held propensity
(2:41 PM) Thusness:    the understanding will dissolve into non-conceptual experience of non-dual presence.
(2:42 PM) Thusness:    the reason why non-dual experience become more difficult to maintain when not in activity is because Emptiness view has not replaced the deeply held dualistic/inherent view
(2:43 PM) AEN:    oic..
(2:43 PM) Thusness:    without the right view, a non-dual practitioner will still struggle unknowingly
(2:43 PM) Thusness:    and naked awareness and non-conceptuality can at this phase becomes an escape
(2:43 PM) Thusness:    so it depends which level a practitioner is in.
(2:44 PM) Thusness:    once the view is firmly established, it serves as an antidote, when sitting, touch, taste, sound are emptiness and operate like DO.
(2:45 PM) Thusness:    means first is the 5 aggregates, then 18 Dhatus then mere DO
(2:45 PM) Thusness:    all are non-dual experience but the depth differs
(2:45 PM) Thusness:    i told u about the 5 aggregates are already non-dual insight and experience right?
(2:46 PM) Thusness:    then the extra layer of mental formation begin to subside, it stops registering imprints
(2:46 PM) Thusness:    or begin to register less
(2:46 PM) Thusness:    transforming to 18 dhatus without the mental formation
(2:47 PM) AEN:    icic..
(2:47 PM) Thusness:    but the previous tendency is still strong
(2:48 PM) Thusness:    so sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, mind still act with the tendency
(2:49 PM) Thusness:    now at this stage, one can rest in naked awareness or firmly establish the view of emptiness
(2:49 PM) Thusness:    it will dissolve the six senses into one DO, empty nature
(2:49 PM) Thusness:    just this is that is
(2:49 PM) Thusness:    no eyes, ears...
(2:49 PM) Thusness:    it is anchored at the deep most level
(2:50 PM) Thusness:    practitioner will know it when sitting and opening eyes and all activities is becoming non-dual
(2:50 PM) Thusness:    the sense of self almost dissolve
(2:50 PM) Thusness:    then experiences become non dual and non local
(2:50 PM) Thusness:    that is stage 6.
(2:50 PM) AEN:    oic..
(2:51 PM) AEN:    what does non local feel like
(2:51 PM) Thusness:    it is just a 'bond' that there is locality
(2:51 PM) Thusness:    that consciousness is at some place
(2:52 PM) Thusness:    it is a clear experience of non-movement and all pervadingness
(2:52 PM) Thusness:    yet ceaseless manifestation
(2:52 PM) AEN:    the master talked of a story of su dong po went to fo yin chan shi and said something jokingly like why sit on this chair, no good or what.. then the zen master ask him all the 4 greats and 5 skandhas are empty, now tell me where are u sitting?
(2:52 PM) AEN:    oic..
(2:53 PM) Thusness:    what is no movement?
(2:53 PM) Thusness:    there is arising and ceasing but there is no movement
(2:53 PM) Thusness:    this is due to empty nature of our non-dual luminosity
(2:53 PM) Thusness:    there is no from point A to point B
(2:54 PM) Thusness:    there is A, B
(2:54 PM) Thusness:    there is only movement when there is a from A to B
(2:54 PM) Thusness:    but when the center is gone, non-dual experience align with Emptiness nature, this becomes clear
(2:55 PM) AEN:    icic..
(2:55 PM) Thusness:    after stabilizing stage 6 is the lou jing tong (from internet: 6. Asavakkaya - Supramundane knowledge or power relating to the destruction of asavas and the recognition of the Four Noble Truths)
(2:56 PM) Thusness:    each dissolving of each organ becomes a tong (siddhi)
(2:56 PM) AEN:    oic why
(2:56 PM) Thusness:    because it becomes non local and non dual
(2:56 PM) AEN:    icic..
(2:56 PM) Thusness:    the 'bond' that prevents it is gone
(2:57 PM) Thusness:    the 'bond' that limits and obstructs is gone
(2:57 PM) AEN:    oic..
(2:57 PM) Thusness:    but 'bond' is gone is mostly not obvious
(2:57 PM) Thusness:    the 'bond' is very subtle
(2:58 PM) AEN:    icic..
(2:58 PM) Thusness:    so fearlessly open up
(2:58 PM) Thusness:    let go of everything
(2:59 PM) AEN:    oic..
(2:59 PM) AEN:    sometimes v hard to let go leh, haha
(3:00 PM) Thusness:    that is because u have not oriented urself totally with Emptiness nature
(3:00 PM) Thusness:    this is very important
(3:00 PM) Thusness:    but only after non-dual experience one can realise the importance
(3:00 PM) AEN:    icic..
(3:00 PM) Thusness:    u watch the video of the Master Yuan Yin
(3:01 PM) AEN:    ya?
(3:01 PM) Thusness:    u cannot grasp the essence?
(3:01 PM) AEN:    need to watch again haha
(3:01 PM) Thusness:    :)
(3:03 PM) AEN:    another day maybe.. studying for exams.. and my mind today not so gd, a bit depressed over certain things.. heh
(3:03 PM) Thusness:    work hard
(3:03 PM) Thusness:    :)
(3:04 PM) AEN:    ok thanks

Session Start: Monday, August 25, 2008

(5:27 PM) AEN:    what do u tink about rokkie's reply: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/325872?page=2
(5:33 PM) AEN:    When we talk about meditation, we're not talking about the meditation nowadays like "sunset meditation" or beethoven's music with birds chirping.

Even if you are very good at not dwelling in the past, even if you are very good at not dwelling in the future, and even if you can really dwell in the present... if you do not know about emptiness and appearance (i.e. no wisdom), then your meditation is as worthless as "sunset meditation". Anyway, there is no real existing "presentness" anyway.

From the Buddhist point of view, only meditation based on wisdom is a means to accumulate merit, as it brings us closer to the truth. These truths are truths that will uproot your suffering.

We tend to get distracted by the ritual of meditation, thinking it's more important than the training of wisdom, because sitting straight etc is more perceivable.

Shamatha is a trick. Vipashyana is business. To perform business, you need the trick. Therefore, both are necessary.

(notes organised from DKR's teaching on How To Accumulate Merit, 25 Aug 2008, San Francisco)
(5:33 PM) AEN:    from an email by jing rui
(5:35 PM) Thusness:    Quite good.
(5:49 PM) AEN:    btw last time u said any form of bare attention is vipassana... but bare attention itself may not be vipassana rite? u said must be mindful of the 3 selas
(5:49 PM) AEN:    seals
(5:54 PM) Thusness:    Just like longchen said u hv to touch it with the heart.
(5:54 PM) AEN:    wat u mean
(5:54 PM) AEN:    i forgot wat he said :P
(5:54 PM) Thusness:    U cannot take it like a dead scroll.
(5:54 PM) AEN:    icic
(5:54 PM) AEN:    but bare attention itself may not be mindful of 3 seals rite
(5:54 PM) Thusness:    non conceptual
(5:55 PM) Thusness:    u have to treat as one coz without that in mind, we cannot experience emptiness
(5:57 PM) Thusness:    Actually even at 'I M' level, the experience is already non conceptual and direct but they fail to realise it.
(5:57 PM) AEN:    oic..
(5:58 PM) Thusness:    this is because of the deeply held 'self'
(5:58 PM) AEN:    icic..
(5:59 PM) Thusness:    That is why I told u to summarize non-dual and emptiness
(6:00 PM) Thusness:    it will not be clear if u do not how consciousness function even after non-dual experience
(6:01 PM) Thusness:    This emptiness and the 3 seals must be firmly established and go hand in hand with non-dual experience
(6:02 PM) AEN:    oic..
(6:02 PM) Thusness:    Then have non conceptual and direct experience of non-dual anatta and then emptiness and DO
(6:05 PM) Thusness:    It is very difficult to experience DO real time.
(6:17 PM) AEN:    icic..
(6:20 PM) Thusness:    To hv intuitive and direct experience that emptiness and DO is the right view of non-duality is even more difficult.
(6:21 PM) AEN:    oic..
(6:23 PM) Thusness:    The six stages I wrote r very important and good guides and can be fully experienced.
(6:24 PM) Thusness:    I will write more details for u.
(6:25 PM) Thusness:    But nothing authentic, discern with ur own wisdom.
(6:25 PM) AEN:    oic.. okie
(8:40 PM) Thusness:    Your answer is very bad.
(8:40 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:41 PM) Thusness:    don't quote me lah
(8:41 PM) Thusness:    then those recorded stuff how can it be delivered that way
(8:41 PM) Thusness:    it should be written properly
(8:41 PM) Thusness:    it is not for mere display of who said what
(8:42 PM) Thusness:    for people to understand correctly what is meant by non-action
(8:42 PM) Thusness:    otherwise u r doing a dis-service
(8:42 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:42 PM) Thusness:    since when did i talk about spontaneous arising to other ppl?
(8:42 PM) Thusness:    i only tell u right?
(8:43 PM) AEN:    ya
(8:43 PM) Thusness:    and to longchen
(8:43 PM) Thusness:    don't talk about that
(8:43 PM) Thusness:    and even if you want to talk about that, write properly
(8:43 PM) Thusness:    know the link between non-duality and non-action
(8:44 PM) Thusness:    and don't talk about spontaneous arising in forum
(8:44 PM) Thusness:    coz it only confuse ppl.
(8:44 PM) Thusness:    instead write about what u think is wu wei
(8:44 PM) Thusness:    there are so many misunderstanding of rokkie and there is no clarity in his understanding.
(8:45 PM) Thusness:    if u really one to help, select one by one and organised ur thoughts and understanding
(8:45 PM) Thusness:    what has non-duality to do with right conduct?
(8:45 PM) AEN:    hmm ya
(8:46 PM) Thusness:    the more u say, the more confuse one gets
(8:47 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:47 PM) AEN:    bcos of the spontaneous arising?
(8:47 PM) Thusness:    take out all.
(8:47 PM) Thusness:    focus ur mind and 'see' what is his problem
(8:47 PM) Thusness:    don't confuse him further
(8:47 PM) Thusness:    what is in his mind?
(8:49 PM) Thusness:    it will also be good for u to understand more about alaya consciousness
(8:50 PM) Thusness:    from yogacara standpoint what is this created?
(8:50 PM) AEN:    he's talking about purifying the alaya right
(8:50 PM) Thusness:    yes.
(8:50 PM) AEN:    ya and i told him it cant be purified except from insights.. isnt it
(8:50 PM) Thusness:    then u talk this and that then bring out spontaneous arising
(8:50 PM) AEN:    lol cos he talk many things mah
(8:50 PM) AEN:    he talk alaya then wu wei :P
(8:50 PM) Thusness:    do u think u understood spontaneous arising?
(8:50 PM) AEN:    not really
(8:51 PM) Thusness:    then why talk about that?
(8:51 PM) Thusness:    till now u can only talk about non-dual and a lil on emptiness from my perspective
(8:51 PM) Thusness:    refine ur understanding into anatta
(8:51 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:52 PM) Thusness:    no wonder dzogchen requires the authentication of teachers
(8:52 PM) Thusness:    and why the forum is closed.
(8:52 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:52 PM) Thusness:    have u seen me talking about that?
(8:52 PM) Thusness:    i told u don't talk to ppl about that unless he have intuitive experience of non duality and emptiness
(8:53 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:54 PM) Thusness:    remove the post
(8:54 PM) Thusness:    it is all wrong and extremely misleading
(8:55 PM) Thusness:    first focus on what is the wrong understanding
(8:55 PM) AEN:    oic ya i removed
(8:55 PM) Thusness:    rokkie is talking about what?
(8:55 PM) AEN:    alaya?
(8:55 PM) Thusness:    remove first
(8:55 PM) Thusness:    don't mislead ppl.
(8:55 PM) AEN:    ya i removed
(8:55 PM) AEN:    u have to F5
(8:56 PM) Thusness:    the entire first para is a total misunderstanding
(8:56 PM) Thusness:    of what?
(8:57 PM) AEN:    back
(8:57 PM) Thusness:    ?? (no-self/anatta) is not ??? (selflessness, as in the opposite of selfishness)
(8:58 PM) AEN:    hmm he thinks that alaya is some real substance?
(8:58 PM) Thusness:    no
(8:58 PM) Thusness:    he has an altruistic view
(8:58 PM) Thusness:    linking morality to a dharma seal
(8:58 PM) AEN:    ya actually i tried to correct him all along and told him many times that no-self is not non attachment to self
(8:58 PM) AEN:    but he doesnt seem to get it :P
(8:58 PM) AEN:    even longchen tried to correct him
(8:58 PM) Thusness:    but u wrote too many things at a time
(8:58 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:59 PM) Thusness:    there is no way he knows what went wrong
(8:59 PM) Thusness:    coz u r merely bombarding info
(8:59 PM) Thusness:    too many stuff at a go
(8:59 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:00 PM) Thusness:    if u can simply get across certain idea of what anatta means, it is already a great achievement
(9:00 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:00 PM) Thusness:    there is no need to rush...the condition must be there
(9:00 PM) Thusness:    did i tell u about everything
(9:00 PM) Thusness:    did i tell longchen about emptiness and this and that?
(9:00 PM) AEN:    no
(9:01 PM) Thusness:    for how many years i remain silence?
(9:01 PM) Thusness:    merely talk about it only when necessary
(9:01 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:01 PM) Thusness:    how many have i really spoke to?
(9:01 PM) Thusness:    only few
(9:01 PM) Thusness:    and why all the fews have certain realisations?
(9:02 PM) Thusness:    including u have certain clarity of non-duality
(9:02 PM) Thusness:    it must be a progress and the time and condition must be right
(9:02 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:03 PM) Thusness:    to bring across a point is not to bombard
(9:03 PM) Thusness:    one with all sorts of info
(9:03 PM) Thusness:    u have to observe
(9:03 PM) AEN:    ya the ppl u spoke to all got enlightened :P including longchen, jonls, yougarksooo, star, etc
(9:03 PM) Thusness:    where is this person at
(9:03 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:04 PM) Thusness:    even if one is very intelligent, if the yuan is not there and the timing is not right, there is no point.
(9:04 PM) Thusness:    like for mike.
(9:04 PM) Thusness:    it will not help.
(9:04 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:04 PM) AEN:    bcos he wont accept wat u said rite
(9:05 PM) Thusness:    no
(9:05 PM) Thusness:    he will but it will be distorted
(9:05 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:06 PM) Thusness:    that is if i were to talk to him and accept that he has certain level of realisation, he will also accept what i said.
(9:06 PM) Thusness:    but the understanding will be distorted
(9:06 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:06 PM) Thusness:    and different medicine will have to be applied.
(9:07 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:07 PM) Thusness:    u must have deeper clarity of the difference between Advaita and Buddhism.
(9:08 PM) Thusness:    u must know that Buddhism is really talking about non-duality
(9:08 PM) Thusness:    every aspect of the teaching
(9:08 PM) Thusness:    is to point to the correct understanding of non-duality
(9:08 PM) Thusness:    from Theravada to mahayana to dzogchen
(9:09 PM) Thusness:    but the right understanding of non-dual experience
(9:09 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:09 PM) Thusness:    That includes yogacara
(9:10 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:10 PM) Thusness:    But the right view towards non-duality
(9:10 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:10 PM) Thusness:    let's talk about longchen, does non-conceptuality comes about naturally?
(9:11 PM) AEN:    nope
(9:11 PM) Thusness:    even for him, he said at the beginning stage of non-duality, it is still very much conceptual
(9:11 PM) Thusness:    even emptiness
(9:11 PM) Thusness:    so why are concepts needed?
(9:12 PM) AEN:    hmm cos its the antidote to our dualistic and inherent views?
(9:12 PM) Thusness:    no
(9:12 PM) Thusness:    because we are trained to know in terms of concepts
(9:12 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:12 PM) Thusness:    beyond concepts the mind cannot know
(9:13 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:13 PM) Thusness:    the mind (dualistic) must come to a rest
(9:13 PM) Thusness:    to at least experience non duality
(9:14 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:14 PM) Thusness:    then non-verbal, conceptual and symbolic experience can arise
(9:14 PM) Thusness:    and the mind 'realises' that there is such a state
(9:15 PM) Thusness:    but the mind although experiences it cannot understand it
(9:15 PM) Thusness:    it knows that there is such an experience
(9:15 PM) Thusness:    but it cannot understand it in terms of its dualistic/inherent concepts
(9:16 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:16 PM) Thusness:    therefore there is distortion.  It understands it in the wrong way
(9:16 PM) Thusness:    that is, the experience is there, but the right understanding is not there.
(9:17 PM) Thusness:    therefore having the experience is not enough because of the 'bond' is deeply rooted.
(9:17 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:18 PM) Thusness:    unless one is so fully and strongly concentrated in a non-dual bare mode of attention, one cannot really see 'what is'
(9:18 PM) Thusness:    so when u say can vipassana lead to insight?
(9:18 PM) Thusness:    what is the answer?
(9:19 PM) AEN:    it requires right view?
(9:19 PM) Thusness:    no
(9:19 PM) Thusness:    the answer is yes.
(9:19 PM) Thusness:    it can but what?
(9:19 PM) AEN:    it may not have right view?
(9:19 PM) Thusness:    no
(9:19 PM) Thusness:    i am saying it can but what?
(9:20 PM) AEN:    it can lead to the experience but the bond may still be there right?
(9:21 PM) Thusness:    no
(9:21 PM) Thusness:    there bond is there, but insight will still arise
(9:21 PM) Thusness:    the question is without right view, can one through bare and naked awareness arise non-dual and emptiness insight?
(9:23 PM) AEN:    the experience can be there but the mind cannot understand the experience?
(9:23 PM) Thusness:    no
(9:23 PM) Thusness:    then how Buddha understands?
(9:24 PM) AEN:    dunnu leh
(9:24 PM) AEN:    lol
(9:24 PM) AEN:    past life?
(9:24 PM) AEN:    *past life he understood
(9:25 PM) Thusness:    ur head
(9:25 PM) AEN:    haha
(9:26 PM) AEN:    then u mean
(9:26 PM) AEN:    without right view its possible?
(9:26 PM) Thusness:    why not?
(9:26 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:27 PM) AEN:    but buddha say need right view leh
(9:27 PM) Thusness:    so what is the problem?
(9:27 PM) AEN:    hmm
(9:27 PM) AEN:    some ppl have deeply held wrong views?
(9:27 PM) AEN:    some dont?
(9:27 PM) Thusness:    ai yoh...
(9:27 PM) Thusness:    concentration
(9:28 PM) AEN:    u mean there must be concentration to give rise to insight of non duality and emptiness?
(9:28 PM) Thusness:    no
(9:29 PM) Thusness:    i mean unless ur concentration is so strong almost perfect that u r able to maintain bare attention and naked awareness non-conceptually, u cannot know 'what is'
(9:29 PM) Thusness:    there is no clarity of 'what is'
(9:29 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:30 PM) AEN:    so that means concentration is necessary for insight isnt it
(9:30 PM) Thusness:    no
(9:30 PM) Thusness:    some concentration is needed
(9:30 PM) Thusness:    but one can arrive at the right experience with the right view
(9:31 PM) Thusness:    right understanding of non-dual experience with the right view
(9:31 PM) AEN:    btw buddha did say concentration is the condition for insight:
(9:31 PM) Thusness:    yes
(9:31 PM) AEN:    ...."Emancipation, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for emancipation? 'Dispassion' should be the reply.

"Dispassion, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment' should be the reply.

"Disenchantment, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' should be the reply.

"The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply....
(9:31 PM) AEN:    the last sentence
(9:31 PM) Thusness:    but not almost perfect concentration
(9:31 PM) Thusness:    only with the right view
(9:32 PM) Thusness:    get it.
(9:32 PM) Thusness:    why are non-dual experiences distorted?
(9:32 PM) AEN:    bcos of bonds and inherent views?
(9:33 PM) Thusness:    yes
(9:35 PM) Thusness:    so why i said establishing right view is important?
(9:35 PM) AEN:    to give rise to right understanding?
(9:35 PM) Thusness:    how is it that a inherent and dualistic view create a whole experience of objects occurring in a space time continuum?
(9:36 PM) AEN:    bcos its spell like and deeply held?
(9:37 PM) Thusness:    so how is this spell like 'deeply held' be broken?
(9:37 PM) AEN:    maintain bare attention and naked awareness non-conceptually?
(9:37 PM) AEN:    and with right views
(9:38 PM) Thusness:    yes
(9:38 PM) Thusness:    if the right view can penetrate deeply strong enough to replace the inherent and dualistic views
(9:39 PM) Thusness:    therefore i told u to keep summarizing
(9:39 PM) Thusness:    to overcome that wrong view
(9:39 PM) Thusness:    through working hand in hand with propensities
(9:39 PM) Thusness:    through conceptuality
(9:40 PM) Thusness:    and yet at the same time having non-dual experience
(9:40 PM) Thusness:    and do dropping
(9:40 PM) Thusness:    all these 3 conditions must be there
(9:40 PM) Thusness:    dropping, the total willingness to let go is very very very important
(9:40 PM) Thusness:    dispassion
(9:40 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:41 PM) Thusness:    what did i tell longchen?
(9:41 PM) Thusness:    after non-duality, what must he do?
(9:41 PM) AEN:    understand emptiness?
(9:41 PM) Thusness:    u better read carefully
(9:41 PM) Thusness:    i told him to practice 2nd door
(9:41 PM) Thusness:    impermanence
(9:41 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:41 PM) Thusness:    dropping
(9:42 PM) Thusness:    have u read what i said?
(9:42 PM) AEN:    ya
(9:42 PM) Thusness:    dropping
(9:42 PM) Thusness:    continue dropping
(9:42 PM) Thusness:    that is after non-dual
(9:42 PM) Thusness:    the correct understanding of non-duality must come with this sense of total dropping
(9:42 PM) Thusness:    didn't i tell u about 'suffering'?
(9:43 PM) Thusness:    to truthz, u and isis?
(9:43 PM) Thusness:    about 'suffering'?
(9:43 PM) Thusness:    about u must be so sick, so tired, that a total willingness arise for u to give up everything?
(9:43 PM) Thusness:    even ur body, mind and death
(9:44 PM) AEN:    oic.. ya
(9:44 PM) Thusness:    that is what?
(9:44 PM) Thusness:    dispassion
(9:44 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:44 PM) Thusness:    non-duality must come with this understanding
(9:45 PM) Thusness:    that is why after non-duality, longchen has to practice second door.
(9:45 PM) Thusness:    that is what it told u, truthz and isis about suffering and attachment
(9:46 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:47 PM) AEN:    i did notice last week when i meditated i had the feeling like i can give up everything, like theres a willingness to give up everything
(9:48 PM) AEN:    actually theseadays i also feel abit sick and tired and want to give up everything but conditions dont allow.. haha
(9:49 PM) Thusness:    give up
(9:49 PM) Thusness:    at least mentally
(9:49 PM) Thusness:    everything
(9:49 PM) Thusness:    don't ask why
(9:49 PM) Thusness:    i told u not to ask why right
(9:49 PM) Thusness:    don't reason
(9:49 PM) Thusness:    just give up
(9:50 PM) AEN:    ok
(9:50 PM) Thusness:    even if u experience non-duality, u will still suffer
(9:50 PM) AEN:    oic y
(9:51 PM) Thusness:    because u have not really understood ur nature is emptiness
(9:51 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:51 PM) Thusness:    what did the heart sutra said?
(9:51 PM) Thusness:    that is the greatest realization
(9:51 PM) AEN:    5 skandhas are empty?
(9:51 PM) Thusness:    everything is empty till what?
(9:51 PM) Thusness:    and what ultimately
(9:52 PM) AEN:    no ignorance, no birth and death, etc
(9:52 PM) AEN:    wat u mean by what ultimately
(9:52 PM) AEN:    no 4 noble truths
(9:53 PM) AEN:    no wisdom, no attainment, no obstruction, no fear
(9:53 PM) AEN:    no false imagination
(9:53 PM) Thusness:    no attainment
(9:53 PM) Thusness:    there is no attainment
(9:53 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:54 PM) Thusness:    if u cannot understand this in the deepest most of ur heart, u have not understood anything
(9:54 PM) Thusness:    therefore i said about cessation
(9:54 PM) Thusness:    it is through dispassion
(9:55 PM) Thusness:    what did i tell in the awakeningtodreams?
(9:55 PM) AEN:    cessation is impt?
(9:55 PM) Thusness:    like a passerby that is gone, is gone forever
(9:55 PM) Thusness:    cease
(9:55 PM) Thusness:    totally
(9:55 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:55 PM) Thusness:    if non-dual experience can have that experience, why do i tell u to 'drop'
(9:55 PM) Thusness:    to learn 'dropping'
(9:56 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:56 PM) Thusness:    what did ur master chen tell u?
(9:56 PM) AEN:    she3?
(9:57 PM) AEN:    ya and he talked about the importance of drop off body mind when lzls and the grp go to his place last year
(9:57 PM) Thusness:    that ur master told him she3, but he doesn't understand.
(9:57 PM) Thusness:    that time he already experiences non-duality
(9:57 PM) Thusness:    the buddha nature
(9:57 PM) AEN:    and said most ppl dunnu how to do that tats y they have problems and sufferings, i tink if i remember correctly
(9:57 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:57 PM) Thusness:    u must understand that he already understand non-duality that time
(9:58 PM) Thusness:    and non dual insight already arise
(9:58 PM) Thusness:    not just "I AM"
(9:58 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:58 PM) Thusness:    That is why i said, Element is not wrong and he bring out something very important
(9:59 PM) Thusness:    however he missed the whole point that non-dual is not important
(9:59 PM) Thusness:    all of Buddha's teaching is about non-duality, but the right view of non-duality
(9:59 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:00 PM) Thusness:    but with insight, the empty nature must realise complete no attainment
(10:00 PM) Thusness:    many will say that, but none grasp the 'heart' of it.
(10:00 PM) Thusness:    i tell u this because it is very important.
(10:00 PM) Thusness:    complete willingness to let go.
(10:00 PM) AEN:    wat do u mean by no attainment
(10:00 PM) Thusness:    otherwise don't talk about spontaneous arising
(10:01 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:01 PM) Thusness:    if any non-dual insight lead to the grasping of anything, it is wrong understanding.
(10:02 PM) Thusness:    Any form of grasping is 'self'.
(10:02 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:02 PM) AEN:    actually i tink some teachers i tink tony parsons say b4
(10:02 PM) AEN:    its more about losing rite
(10:02 PM) AEN:    losing the illusion of self, etc
(10:02 PM) Thusness:    yes
(10:03 PM) Thusness:    like i told u many years back taoism is 'eliminate until none'
(10:03 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:04 PM) Thusness:    after non-dual experience, establishing the right view is very important and the practice of dropping.
(10:04 PM) Thusness:    these are the 3 things i am telling u to practice.
(10:04 PM) Thusness:    through summarization of non-duality and emptiness, non-dual experience through self enquiry and dropping
(10:05 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:05 PM) AEN:    u mean self inquiry can lead to non dual meh
(10:05 PM) Thusness:    experience
(10:05 PM) Thusness:    not insight
(10:05 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:05 PM) AEN:    oh ya that indian master i sent u that time
(10:05 PM) Thusness:    the summarization of non-duality aka anatta and emptiness must sink very deeply into ur consciousness
(10:05 PM) AEN:    when he was i tink around 15 or wat he did the ramana maharshi inquiry
(10:06 PM) AEN:    and had the non dual sort of experience
(10:06 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:06 PM) Thusness:    then any non-dual experience with the right view and dropping will hopefully :P lead u to intuitive insight of Emptiness.
(10:07 PM) Thusness:    then u need about few years to stabilize these experiences
(10:07 PM) Thusness:    what is right understanding of empty luminosity
(10:07 PM) Thusness:    it must be exactly like what Buddha said in DO.
(10:07 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:08 PM) Thusness:    now isn't the dharma seals about non-duality?
(10:08 PM) Thusness:    the right view?
(10:08 PM) Thusness:    the 5 aggregates
(10:08 PM) Thusness:    the 18 Dhatus
(10:08 PM) Thusness:    the DO
(10:08 PM) Thusness:    what is not about non-duality?
(10:08 PM) AEN:    ya
(10:08 PM) Thusness:    mahayana? vajrayana, mahamudra or dzogchen?
(10:09 PM) Thusness:    So how could non-dual not important?
(10:09 PM) Thusness:    it is the right view of non-dual experience
(10:09 PM) Thusness:    but it is not to have a conceptual view
(10:09 PM) Thusness:    ultimately
(10:09 PM) Thusness:    it must be direct and non-conceptual.
(10:10 PM) Thusness:    just remember ur entire experience can be sort distorted by propensities
(10:10 PM) Thusness:    and the way of Establishing the firm understanding of anatta, DO and emptiness have the similar purposes.
(10:11 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:11 PM) Thusness:    how from stage 1-6 are really the 3 practices i told u
(10:11 PM) Thusness:    1-2 are non dual experience
(10:11 PM) Thusness:    3 is dropping
(10:12 PM) Thusness:    5-6 is non-dual insight
(10:12 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:12 PM) AEN:    4 also rite
(10:12 PM) Thusness:    yes
(10:12 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:12 PM) Thusness:    u fail to c the importance of 3
(10:12 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:13 PM) Thusness:    u may see the 5 aggregates, 18 Dhatus and DO as the deepening of insight of stages of 5-6
(10:14 PM) Thusness:    the right view of non-duality, the deepening of non-dual insight
(10:14 PM) Thusness:    many rest in the beginning of 5 aggregates
(10:14 PM) Thusness:    that is non-dual insight arises but there is still a fair bit of mental formation.
(10:14 PM) Thusness:    there is no-self
(10:15 PM) AEN:    u mean haven transform to 18 dhatu?
(10:17 PM) Thusness:    yes
(10:17 PM) Thusness:    the mental formation is still there
(10:18 PM) Thusness:    at least ur non-dual experience and insight must be till a stage of quite strong stability.
(10:18 PM) AEN:    then can do away with mental formation?
(10:19 PM) Thusness:    u always have this tendency to say i said this and that. :P
(10:19 PM) Thusness:    yes
(10:19 PM) Thusness:    u can.
(10:19 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:19 PM) AEN:    haha
(10:19 PM) Thusness:    and by that time u will have clarity of emptiness and DO.
(10:19 PM) Thusness:    not as a concept but as real time experience.
(10:19 PM) Thusness:    to have clarity of DO and the 12 links is not easy. :)
(10:20 PM) Thusness:    the trace of self and 'bond' has been sufficiently dissolved. :)
(10:20 PM) Thusness:    u just take whatever i said as a guide.
(10:20 PM) Thusness:    hope it helps to refine ur understanding.
(10:20 PM) Thusness:    but that is not to say that i am very sut in experience hor.
(10:20 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:21 PM) Thusness:    David Loy fail to see the importance of DO and emptiness.
(10:21 PM) Thusness:    or overlooked.
(10:21 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:21 PM) Thusness:    and therefore link non-dual experience with non-dual insight
(10:21 PM) Thusness:    the experience is the same.
(10:22 PM) Thusness:    the right view is not there and there is profound implication.
(10:22 PM) Thusness:    with practice u will know why.
(10:22 PM) Thusness:    next time u take Phd, u can write about it. :P
(10:22 PM) Thusness:    hahaha
(10:22 PM) AEN:    lol
(10:22 PM) AEN:    ic..

(11:48 PM) AEN:   
THE ABANDON RELEASE METHOD PRACTICE INSTRUCTIONS

  39. Description A: Shut your eyes. Relax your body. Now ignore your body. Let go of all effort. Let go of all sense of having to do something, as though there is nothing you have to do and nothing you have to think about. Letting go of all effort means letting go of all will and all desire as though there was nothing that needed to be accomplished or changed.

      Let go. Relax. Let go more. Relax more. See how far it is possible to let go. Let go of all thoughts. Let go of all feelings. Let go of all effort. Let go of everything except your awareness.

      Whatever thoughts, perceptions, images or feelings arise, let them go as soon as they arise or even before they arise. Do not follow thoughts, as though you had no interest in them. Let go of all your perceptions as though they have nothing to do with you.

(11:48 PM) AEN:   
Continue to relax more and more. Throughout the practice session let go more, then let go even more and as the practice session continues see how far it is possible to let go. Relax completely. Let go totally. Release everything except your awareness.

Letting go is giving up completely. Letting go is surrendering completely. Letting go is relaxing completely. Letting go is releasing completely. Letting go is letting go of all effort and all thought. Letting go is letting go of all feelings, desires and images. Letting go is letting go of everything except your awareness.

The difference between falling asleep and the Abandon Release Method is when you fall asleep you let go of everything including your awareness. In the Abandon Release Method, you let go of everything except your awareness.
(11:50 PM) Thusness:    No
(11:50 PM) AEN:    oic y
(11:50 PM) Thusness:    It all depends on u
(11:50 PM) AEN:    huh what u mean
(11:51 PM) Thusness:    Do u sleep during meditation?
(11:51 PM) AEN:    no
(11:51 PM) AEN:    if i feel like sleeping i'll stop meditating
(11:51 PM) Thusness:    sitting meditation?
(11:51 PM) Thusness:    Yeah
(11:52 PM) Thusness:    Don't be afraid of letting go ur awareness
(11:52 PM) Thusness:    Ur duty is letting go
(11:52 PM) Thusness:    Who said that?
(11:52 PM) AEN:    michael langford, i posted his book b4 in sgforums
(11:52 PM) AEN:    the one who wrote the awareness watching awareness method
(11:53 PM) AEN:    this is another method.. there is also other method like loving all method (more for daily life practice), infinite space method, etc etc
(11:53 PM) Thusness:    Just learn letting go
(11:53 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:54 PM) Thusness:    what that is taught is not it
(11:54 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:54 PM) AEN:    means must let go even the awareness?
(11:55 PM) AEN:    btw in the video i sent u last time, lzls also say let go except awareness :P
(11:55 PM) Thusness:    Letting go has no holding
(11:55 PM) AEN:    icic
(11:55 PM) AEN:    the eternal witness is also another form of holding, u mean?
(11:55 PM) Thusness:    Don't listen to them lah
(11:55 PM) AEN:    haha ok
(11:56 PM) Thusness:    their mind is forever picking up
(11:57 PM) AEN:    icic
(11:57 PM) Thusness:    True letting go has no guarding of this and that
(11:57 PM) AEN:    so the problem in the description is its still attempting to hold onto awareness like an eternal witness rite
(11:57 PM) AEN:    than simply relaxing completely
(11:57 PM) Thusness:    Any form of guarding is a form of holding
(11:57 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:58 PM) Thusness:    U r neither holding on to awareness nor letting go of awareness
(11:58 PM) Thusness:    U r just letting go
(11:58 PM) Thusness:    There is simply no holding
(11:58 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:59 PM) AEN:    theres no need to hold on to awareness rite, cos awareness is natural.. we just have to relax completely and dissolve into that
(12:00 AM) Thusness:    It is a complete willingness to let go of everything
(12:00 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:01 AM) Thusness:    Whatever taught is not it. Trust me.
(12:01 AM) AEN:    icic.. ok
(12:01 AM) Thusness:    Haha
(12:01 AM) AEN:    lol
(12:02 AM) Thusness:    Till one day u r at stage 5 and understand DO with clarity
(12:02 AM) Thusness:    Not even ken wilber knows the pathless
(12:03 AM) AEN:    y ken wilber doesnt know the pathless?
(12:03 AM) Thusness:    Till u r in 18 dhatus sort of non-dual then u will know the joy
(12:03 AM) Thusness:    Yes
(12:04 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:04 AM) AEN:    but stage 5 is pathless already rite
(12:04 AM) AEN:    btw longchen wrote before: "...Additionally, the need to stay conscious through the meditation is also dropped away. This opens up a vastness without center. "
(12:04 AM) Thusness:    It is a form of very deep insight and not a stage.
(12:04 AM) AEN:    but wat ken wilber wrote is not stage rite
(12:05 AM) Thusness:    There is no point of entry.
(12:05 AM) AEN:    ken wilber said: "It seems like you “enter” this state, except that once there, you realize that there never was a time this state was not fully present and fully recognized- “ the gateless gate.” And so you deeply understand that you never entered this state; nor did the Buddhas, past or future, ever enter this state."
(12:05 AM) Thusness:    U quoted what Krishnamuti said
(12:06 AM) AEN:    yea wat about krishnmaurti
(12:06 AM) Thusness:    It is the effortlessness of what he said
(12:06 AM) AEN:    oic
(12:07 AM) Thusness:    u quoted him in rookie's post
(12:07 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:08 AM) AEN:    btw wat ken wilber said is pathless also rite
(12:08 AM) Thusness:    It can be experience
(12:08 AM) Thusness:    No
(12:08 AM) AEN:    oic
(12:08 AM) Thusness:    It is just an experience of non dual in clarity
(12:09 AM) Thusness:    It is not the experience of anatta
(12:09 AM) Thusness:    Not DO
(12:09 AM) AEN:    icic but its not like a passing experience for him rite? he said " It seems like you “enter” this state, except that once there, you realize that there never was a time this state was not fully present and fully recognized- “ the gateless gate.” And so you deeply understand that you never entered this state; nor did the Buddhas, past or future, ever enter this state."
(12:11 AM) Thusness:    Yes
(12:11 AM) Thusness:    He realise that all along awareness is non-dual
(12:12 AM) Thusness:    But not of anatta
(12:12 AM) AEN:    bcos no understanding of DO?
(12:12 AM) Thusness:    Of DO of emptiness
(12:12 AM) AEN:    icic
(12:12 AM) Thusness:    It is a different experience
(12:12 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:13 AM) Thusness:    It is non-dual of a much clearer clarity due to the awakening of insight.
(12:14 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:14 AM) Thusness:    U will understand DO, anatta and action.
(12:14 AM) Thusness:    It is this insight that makes it effortless
(12:14 AM) AEN:    oic
(12:14 AM) AEN:    wat is action u mean karma?
(12:15 AM) AEN:    u mean the insight not deep enough?
(12:16 AM) Thusness:    It is not anatta sort of insight
(12:17 AM) AEN:    oic.. but anatta just means no split rite? no observer, doer, thinker, etc
(12:19 AM) Thusness:    Yes and what else?

Session Start: Thursday, August 28, 2008

(12:20 AM) AEN:    sorry restarted my msn cos problematic
(12:20 AM) AEN:    non inherency?
(12:21 AM) Thusness:    Yes
(12:22 AM) Thusness:    And that will lead to a very different experience
(12:22 AM) Thusness:    Of Non-duality
(12:23 AM) Thusness:    It will be seen more like DO, like play of Dharma.
(12:24 AM) Thusness:    U will understand that it is indeed the right view of non-duality
(12:24 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:25 AM) Thusness:    It is a deeper understanding of non-duality that will lead to effortlessness.
(12:26 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:26 AM) Thusness:    And one of the pre-requisites is to let go completely.
(12:27 AM) Thusness:    It is not easy for u to understand now.
(12:27 AM) Thusness:    It requires direct experience Of it.
(12:28 AM) Thusness:    Nothing conceptual
(12:28 AM) AEN:    oic longchen also wrote:

What Thusness wrote is very true. At non-dual, one can still suffer.In fact suffering intensify.

Liberation is the stage after non-dual. In liberation, there is the automatic 'dropping' ... the bliss cannot be attain... There is no way to 'enter into' liberation. We can only prepare for it but dropping.
(12:28 AM) AEN:   

Try not to conceptualise too much... the suffering cannot escape... at each moment the conditions are as they are.
(12:29 AM) AEN:    and also

In the non-conceptual stage, when the bliss is experienced, all knowldege are irrelevant. They are merely concepts. Souls, God, source are all just concepts. They are totally irrelevant for liberation.

When you experienced the automatic dropping, you will understand this truth. :)
(12:29 AM) AEN:   

dunno how to explain that suffering intensify after non-dual. It is just that for me.

The mind automatically try to find a solution or answer... if there is no satisfactory answer... there is suffering. The mind assumes that to gain resolution, it needs to find an answer. This is suffering... wrong assumption.

There is no solution... only automatic release.

Once you reach this point, you will see through the 'attainment' of many so-call enlightened mystics. Those mystics who thinks that there is a soul or god, even when they think that they are not separated from it ... are already conceptualising unconsciously.

All these too much concepts already.
(12:29 AM) Thusness:    U will c it as the 5 aggregate and at this stage, practitioner may not be able to discern clearly the difference between what
(12:30 AM) Thusness:    Ken and Advaita said and Buddha.
(12:30 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:32 AM) Thusness:    But when a practitioner non-dual is approaching the level of 18 dhatus, it becomes very clear.
(12:32 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:33 AM) Thusness:    U just hv to remember this but don't go around posting.
(12:33 AM) Thusness:    and said what I said.
(12:33 AM) AEN:    oic.. ok
(12:34 AM) Thusness:    It will cause useless speculations
(12:34 AM) AEN:    speculations of what
(12:35 AM) Thusness:    of what said is true or not...Haha
(12:35 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:35 AM) Thusness:    whether I m proclaiming anything
(12:36 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:36 AM) Thusness:    Just take this as a guide and see what's taught by Buddha is the right view of non-duality
(12:37 AM) AEN:    ok
(12:37 AM) Thusness:    And it corresponds different clarity of our empty and non-dual nature.
(12:37 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:41 AM) Thusness:    Longchen wrote very well.
(12:41 AM) Thusness:    U show him our recent dialogue ah
(12:42 AM) AEN:    ya was actually asking him to interpret my dream but i also mention about that somehow
(12:43 AM) AEN:    but he said he dun talk about it often now
(12:43 AM) AEN:   

Good luck.

You notice now that i do not talk too much about dream interpretation. They are really an intermediate stage of the process. That is a stage of information gathering. Many mystics have this feeling that in order to be 'spiritual' or 'enlightened'... they must know alot of esoteric stuffs.. This is really just another obstacle.

In the non-conceptual stage, when the bliss is experienced, all knowledge are irrelevant. They are merely concepts. Souls, God, source are all just concepts. They are totally irrelevant for liberation.

When you experienced the automatic dropping, you will understand this truth. :)
(12:45 AM) Thusness:    Yes
(12:45 AM) Thusness:    Actually longchen is very clear now.
(12:45 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:46 AM) AEN:    btw he said suffering intensify after non dual
(12:46 AM) AEN:    isit the dark night?
(12:48 AM) Thusness:    Can be but u don't have to categorize.
(12:48 AM) AEN:    icic
(12:49 AM) Thusness:    The suffering intensify because of holding.
(12:49 AM) AEN:    u mean after non dual the holding will increase?
(12:50 AM) Thusness:    That is why I said Advaita will still lead to holdings even after non-duality
(12:50 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:51 AM) Thusness:    Emptiness will not
(12:51 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:53 AM) Thusness:    So when that dispassion, that total willingness to drop is sync with non-duality, emptiness will gradually be understood.
(12:54 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:54 AM) Thusness:    U automatically become non-dual, effortless, non-abiding, automatically drop.
(12:55 AM) Thusness:    u will not be conceptual
(12:55 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:56 AM) Thusness:    U must 'realise' the importance of dropping.
(12:56 AM) Thusness:    The dispassion, the total willingness to let go of everything
(12:56 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:57 AM) AEN:    btw thats only possible in meditation rite, when engaging in activities sometimes i have to pause for a while to let go
(12:57 AM) AEN:    to let go everything
(12:57 AM) Thusness:    That suffering after non-duality will let us know more abt self.
(12:57 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:58 AM) AEN:    'self' as in propensities?
(12:58 AM) Thusness:    that any form of 'holding' is self.
(12:58 AM) AEN:    oic..
(1:00 AM) Thusness:    If u think of non-conceptuality now, u will hold.
(1:00 AM) Thusness:    U will only want to attain.
(1:00 AM) Thusness:    U will not understand the essence of non-conceptuality
(1:00 AM) AEN:    but non conceptuality cant be thought what, its through dropping rite
(1:01 AM) AEN:    icic
(1:01 AM) Thusness:    U will make it a stage to seek for
(1:01 AM) AEN:    oic..
(1:01 AM) Thusness:    That is the wrong understanding of non-conceptuality
(1:02 AM) AEN:    icic..
(1:03 AM) Thusness:    total willingness to let go (total dropping), non-duality, non-conceptuality are all important characteristics of liberation
(1:04 AM) Thusness:    They must be understood as a whole
(1:04 AM) AEN:    oic..
(1:05 AM) Thusness:    As one experience when we r talking about liberation
(1:05 AM) AEN:    icic..
(1:06 AM) Thusness:    when practice individually, it will become an object of grasping
(1:07 AM) Thusness:    Hey cut and paste and email to me today's chat.
(1:07 AM) AEN:    oic.. but it can be 'practiced' rite.. as one whole?
(1:07 AM) AEN:    oic ok
(1:09 AM) Thusness:    It will not be 'as a whole' without the arising of insight
(1:10 AM) AEN:    icic..
(1:12 AM) Thusness:    Whatever u 'practice' are still conceptual
(1:12 AM) AEN:    oic..
(1:12 AM) AEN:    but dropping is not conceptual rite
(1:12 AM) Thusness:    U r to touch the heart of all these practices
(1:13 AM) AEN:    oic
(1:13 AM) AEN:    its conceptual bcos we think of it as a stage?
(1:13 AM) Thusness:    When u touch the heart of all these practices, it is always a moment of non-conceptuality
(1:13 AM) AEN:    icic..
(1:14 AM) AEN:    means every moment non conceptual?
(1:14 AM) Thusness:    But very soon all these will become an object of grasping
(1:14 AM) Thusness:    Until insight arises
(1:14 AM) AEN:    oic..
(1:16 AM) Thusness:    Then when all effort stops, all concepts disappears, all things drops
(1:16 AM) Thusness:    It will become clear.
(1:17 AM) AEN:    icic..
(1:18 AM) Thusness:    Email to me...Hehe . I go sleep liao
(1:18 AM) AEN:    ok
(1:18 AM) AEN:    cya..
(1:18 AM)    Thusness is now Offline
(7:56 AM) AEN:    longchen: Yes, exactly.

But there is a difference in direct experience... Non-conceptuality is a distinct phase from the 1st non-dual. Going into non-conceptuality will present another turning point.

Now.. your mind put the 'way' into a kind of explanation. In non-conceptual there is no explanation required. The need for explanation is already the mind seeking for an answer. I think you will understand. That is why non-conceptual is a distinct phase...



(10:29 AM) Thusness:    You posted me a reply from Longchen saying "Yes, exactly".  I do not know what have you posted him and he is referring to what.
(1:02 PM) Thusness:    what in particular is longchen referring to?
(1:02 PM) AEN:    oh
(1:02 PM) AEN:    wait ah i find
(1:03 PM) AEN:   

I see.. btw regarding the suffering, is this like what Thusness said in the Lankavatara Sutra talk:

Thusness: Actually I will suggest many people to start from meditation, and then feel the calmness. There is such a stage called the dark nights that can be very painful. Dark night are stages of experiences of non duality... the momentum somehow reacted much faster, and became more intense, that created some problems. Created a lot of pain for the experiencer.

Participant 1: I don?t think I am very near that, right? {laughs}

Thusness: {inaudible} Because it comes all of a sudden, you see. Just all of a sudden {inaudible} the experience of non-duality.



BTW I think I understand a bit of what you're saying regarding the resolution or answer.... do correct me if I'm wrong. The mind projects its own perceived 'problems' which are actually non-existent/illusory and attempts to solve it within the same dualistic/inherent framework. In actuality there is just a simple Isness, no question/problems and answer/solutions.

Problems and questions and the solutions only exist within the mi
(1:04 PM) AEN:   

Problems and questions and the solutions only exist within the mind, in our interpretations, are not actually real. There is actually no problems, only isness regardless of what conditions.

Regarding the question 'is it possible to maintain nondual', JonLS posted before:


hi AEN,

this question doesn't feel right to me

because you bring up the question of identification with duality

and yet, it feels to me, that only mind would have a problem with this

so without "thinking" about this,

is there really a problem?

is there really a question there?

what i'm trying to say, is when you are fully present

and no thought is occurring

there are no questions, no problems,

just "this"



so the question raised, or the apparent problem that has arisen

can't be resolved by the same thinking that created it

another way of saying this it that identification itself is just a concept in the mind

when the mind (thought) is dropped where is the question?

where is the problem?

the same goes for the concept of duality lachen


so all there really is is nonduality

duality exists only in
(1:04 PM) AEN:   

duality exists only in the mind, in our interpretations, in what we know

and then the mind asks how to get out of nonduality

how to get out of itself

that's really a hoot! lol
(1:06 PM) Thusness:    ?
(1:06 PM) Thusness:    u mean u posted this to longchen?
(1:06 PM) Thusness:    the jonls post?
(1:07 PM) AEN:    ya
(1:07 PM) AEN:    lol
(1:07 PM) Thusness:    and the part regarding the darknight?
(1:07 PM) AEN:    ya
(1:08 PM) Thusness:    non-duality must go hand in hand with dropping.
(1:08 PM) Thusness:    do not get urself lost in trivial matters.
(1:08 PM) Thusness:    instead know what is crucial.
(1:08 PM) AEN:    icic
(1:08 PM) AEN:    wat u mean by trivial matters
(1:09 PM) Thusness:    u must be able to touch the heart of what is meant by a total willingness to let go of everything.
(1:09 PM) AEN:    oic
(1:10 PM) Thusness:    in order to have the right understanding of emptiness, u have to know that it is not only non-separation.
(1:10 PM) Thusness:    it is non-inherent leading to centerless, non-local, non abiding and non staying.
(1:10 PM) Thusness:    impermanence
(1:11 PM) Thusness:    that is what is truly awareness?
(1:11 PM) Thusness:    not to have conceptual view of it.
(1:11 PM) Thusness:    what is it?
(1:11 PM) Thusness:    when u get trapped in just the luminosity, u cannot see the importance of 'dropping all'.
(1:12 PM) Thusness:    Emptiness present the 'insight' incorporating that 'dropping', that non abiding, that 'dispassion' as a natural state.
(1:12 PM) Thusness:    that non attainment.
(1:12 PM) AEN:    oic..
(1:13 PM) Thusness:    into a natural state.
(1:13 PM) AEN:    icic..
(1:13 PM) Thusness:    that is why it is effortless.
(1:13 PM) Thusness:    however before that, it is difficult to understand.
(1:13 PM) AEN:    oic..
(1:14 PM) Thusness:    without emptiness as our nature, there is no effortlessness of dropping away.
(1:15 PM) Thusness:    all concepts will lead to inherent views.  In emptiness there is no concepts and therefore no non-conceptuality of emptiness view in essence.
(1:15 PM) Thusness:    the purpose of emptiness involves the emptying of views.
(1:15 PM) Thusness:    u must experience it real time.
(1:15 PM) AEN:    icic..
(1:15 PM) Thusness:    i got to go now.
(1:16 PM) AEN:    btw emptiness can only be experienced after insight rite
(1:16 PM) Thusness:    if non-duality led u to the wrong understanding of grasping awareness, then u fall into Advaita sort of concept.
(1:16 PM) AEN:    oic..
(1:17 PM) Thusness:    There is 'this'.  This is the source.  Buddhism is not interest in 'this'.
(1:17 PM) Thusness:    for 'this' is empty.
(1:17 PM) AEN:    icic..
(1:17 PM) Thusness:    I have told u many times about it is not luminosity, it is the empty nature.
(1:17 PM) Thusness:    but if u make it something to grasp, then again u miss the point.
(1:18 PM) AEN:    last time u said toni packer focus on luminosity, for u u will just focus on the impermanence
(1:18 PM) AEN:    thats the emptiness aspect rite
(1:18 PM) AEN:    icic
(1:18 PM) Thusness:    it has to be understood as one.
(1:18 PM) AEN:    oic
(1:18 PM) Thusness:    because that is the right understanding of non-duality.
(1:18 PM) AEN:    icic..
(1:18 PM) Thusness:    i got to go now.
(1:18 PM) AEN:    ok.. cya

Session Start: Thursday, August 28, 2008

(6:30 PM) AEN:    icic
(6:31 PM) Thusness:    Dharma as a raft is for giving up, not for picking up
(6:31 PM) AEN:    oic..
(6:32 PM) Thusness:    Which aspect of Emptiness is for grasping?
(6:33 PM) Thusness:    Not end 'attributes' are seen as belonging to object.
(6:33 PM) Thusness:    Even
(6:33 PM) AEN:    icic..
(6:40 PM) Thusness:    U will realise later that not seeing DO and Empty nature of our pristine awareness, the non-dual experience, the non-separation
(6:41 PM) Thusness:    Becomes a form of attachment.
(6:41 PM) AEN:    oic..
(6:42 PM) Thusness:    U must know totally settling down
(6:42 PM) Thusness:    Cessation
(6:42 PM) AEN:    icic..
(6:42 PM) Thusness:    Dropping all
(6:42 PM) Thusness:    Coming to a rest
(6:43 PM) AEN:    oic..
(6:44 PM) Thusness:    Both non-dual luminosity and this total dropping must be seen as a single practice.
(6:45 PM) AEN:    icic..
(1:18 PM) Thusness:    i got to go now.
(1:18 PM) AEN:    ok.. cya
(1:22 PM) AEN:    i going to finish my last paper today.. then alot of time to meditate liao :P
(5:15 PM) AEN:    finished my last paper.. now got alot of time to meditate liao haha
(5:16 PM) Thusness:    Haha
(5:16 PM) Thusness:    Good

Session Start: Friday, August 29, 2008

(11:37 AM) Thusness:    the url u gave don't have leh
(11:37 AM) Thusness:    anyway, my stage 5-6 has gained great stability
(11:37 AM) Thusness:    quite deep and stable now. :)
(11:37 AM) Thusness:    u have to practice diligently.
(11:38 AM) AEN:    oic..
(11:38 AM) AEN:    thats great
(11:39 AM) Thusness:    haha but i know u do not know what i meant. :P
(11:39 AM) Thusness:    anyway, take this opportunity to do meditation. :)
(11:39 AM) AEN:    icic.. okie
(11:40 AM) AEN:    so wat u meant by ur stage 5-6 has gained great stability?
(11:42 AM) Thusness:    stage 5 and 6 are the arising of non-dual anatta and emptiness insight
(11:43 AM) Thusness:    but during the journey, a practitioner still need to stuggle with the propensities that continue to manifest in every moment.
(11:44 AM) AEN:    icic..
(11:44 AM) Thusness:    it sort of move along the path of 5 aggregates to 18 dhatus and DO.
(11:44 AM) Thusness:    one gradually becomes a living DO.
(11:44 AM) AEN:    oic..
(11:44 AM) Thusness:    everything is clear.
(11:45 AM) Thusness:    as in the form of teaching...ehehe
(11:46 AM) AEN:    icic..
(11:46 AM) AEN:    u mean
(11:46 AM) AEN:    everything becomes clear as DO and 18 dhatus?
(11:48 AM) Thusness:    18 Dhatus is for explanation purposes.
(11:48 AM) Thusness:    it is effectively DO.
(11:49 AM) Thusness:    all is summarized as conditions for the moment of arising
(11:49 AM) AEN:    oic..
(11:50 AM) Thusness:    in hearing there is only sound
(11:50 AM) AEN:    so btw stability in stage 5 and 6 has got to do with dissolving the propensities and transforming into 18 dhatus?
(11:50 AM) Thusness:    krishnamurti said the 'space' must be eliminated
(11:50 AM) Thusness:    but without the arising of insight, it cannot be done. :)
(11:51 AM) Thusness:    as in becoming effortless
(11:51 AM) AEN:    oic..
(11:51 AM) Thusness:    without the mental formation, one can enter into a sort of clarity absorption easily
(11:52 AM) Thusness:    like i told u the other time.
(11:53 AM) AEN:    u mean that time u said u can enter 45 minutes or something :P
(11:53 AM) Thusness:    i can only say just drop and have clear understanding of non-duality and emptiness first.
(11:53 AM) AEN:    icic..
(11:53 AM) Thusness:    that sense of self must be completely gone.
(11:53 AM) Thusness:    for u to really understand.
(11:54 AM) AEN:    oic..
(11:56 AM) Thusness:    longchen is like entering the 18 dhatus.
(11:56 AM) AEN:    icic..
(11:57 AM) Thusness:    or into DO
(11:57 AM) Thusness:    just the arising and passing away
(11:57 AM) Thusness:    without the need for a center, a locality in a non-conceptual mode. :)
(11:58 AM) AEN:    oic..
(11:59 AM) Thusness:    depending on the depth of clarity and the ability to drop, there is a very deep joy in whatever arises in a normal condition.
(12:00 PM) Thusness:    it is a sort of bliss of luminous presence without the sense of self, division, locality and conceptuality
(12:00 PM) Thusness:    it can also turn into a sort of absorption.
(12:00 PM) Thusness:    that is the result of clear insight of our empty luminosity.
(12:00 PM) Thusness:    not the result of deep concentration.
(12:01 PM) Thusness:    this is very difficult to understand.
(12:01 PM) Thusness:    it is an effortless absorption.
(12:01 PM) AEN:    icic..
(12:01 PM) AEN:    "Further, in some strange way even the worst of the world has a
richness of texture that can be deeply enjoyed, and a mysterious and
sometimes awe-inspiring glory mixed into it, inherent in it. What they
were looking for was permeating all the sensations without exception
that had made up their world all along! What staggering irony this is,
and what a silent joy it is to discover this at last. This is what is meant by
311“the bliss of Nirvana.” It is a more subtle understanding than the
nirmanakaya and in some largely mysterious way does not contradict it.
Beyond even this, they also understand in real time what is meant by
the dharmakaya, that somehow none of this is they, and that “what they
are” cannot be fundamentally harmed, disturbed or affected by the
world of phenomena in any way. The dharmakaya seems to
simultaneously pervade all of this, not be all of this, and be utterly
beyond all of this. It seems to be permanent and yet unfindable, be
empty and yet aware. Even this paradoxical language is hopelessly crude
and from a certain point of view unnecessary, though an arahat w
(12:02 PM) Thusness:    what said this?
(12:02 PM) Thusness:    who?
(12:02 PM) AEN:    dharma dan
(12:02 PM) Thusness:    new one?
(12:02 PM) Thusness:    not bad. :)
(12:03 PM) AEN:    im not sure if its new one, its in his third edition e-book, April 2007
(12:04 PM) Thusness:    continue pasting
(12:04 PM) AEN:    though an arahat would
know directly what it is pointing to. This is what is meant by “going
beyond birth and death,” “Samsara is Nirvana,” “the arahat is traceless
here and now,” “True Self” and “no-self.” Interestingly, the
nirmanakaya also relates directly to both “True Self” and “no-self.”
There is something beautiful and yet tragic in this, a “dark comedy” as a
friend of mine put it.
To even say that the dharmakaya is a very subtle understanding
makes no sense, as the understanding of dharmakaya arises more from
what is absent rather than a sense of the presence of something. On the
other hand, the presence of everything bears witness to it.
All three understandings (the nirmanakaya, the sambhogakaya, and
the dharmakaya) are accessible to the arahat at any time by the mere
inclination towards them, which is to say these perspectives arise
dependent on causes in their own time. They are three complementary
perspectives on the same thing. It is like being able to see the validity of
the perspective of all of the three people in the classic Taoist painting
called “The Vinegar Taste
(12:04 PM) AEN:    that article is on three kayas
(12:04 PM) AEN:    so he explained nirmanakaya, sambhogakaya and dharmakaya
(12:04 PM) AEN:    Taoist painting
called “The Vinegar Tasters,” with Confucius and his laws for living in
the world relating to the nirmanakaya, Lao Tzu and his deep
appreciation of life relating to the sambhogakaya, and the Buddha and
his emphasis on Nirvana and going beyond suffering, birth and death
relating to the dharmakaya. Most people think of this painting as a
Taoist slam on the other two traditions, but I think that the deeper
meaning is much more useful.
The teaching of the Three Ultimate Dharmas of materiality,
mentality and Nibbana that I articulated earlier is closely related to the
Tibetan concepts of the Three Kayas or aspects of the fully enlightened
(12:06 PM) AEN:    condition. The nirmanakaya relates to form, the sambhogakaya relates
to the enjoyable, quiet and spacious peace of the fully enlightened mind
that unifies the mental and physical into the same field of experience,
and the dharmakaya relates to Nibbana.
Were only the nirmanakaya true, we could say that unitive
experiences are the answer and that we are the whole field of
experience. Were only the dharmakaya true, we could say that
transcendent “experiences” are the answer, that we create and know the
whole field of experience, that we do not exist, and that we are the
deathless or God. Neither of these frameworks can clearly explain
things on their own, and so, as mentioned in the chapter called No-self
vs. True Self, none of these descriptions really holds up to reality testing
on its own.
(12:06 PM) AEN:    Presenting the Three Kayas also allows me to continue to hammer
relentlessly on the point about people wanting to find some spiritual
reality other than this one. The huge temptation when walking the
spiritual path is to try desperately to find a way to get the simple ease of
the sambhogakaya and the indestructible, transcendent and deathless
luminosity of the dharmakaya while secretly hoping that the down to
earth, mundane, intimate, visceral, vulnerable, and often embarrassing
nirmanakaya will just sort of crawl away and die or at least radically
reform itself. The nirmanakaya is often treated as though it were the
bastard stepchild of the fully enlightened condition, but you can’t have
one without the others. Intimacy with reality is bought at the price of
attaining transcendence beyond reality. Transcendence is bought at the
price of attaining intimacy with reality. These inescapable facts should
not be forgotten.
(12:06 PM) Thusness:    This article is good.
(12:06 PM) AEN:    icic..
(12:10 PM) AEN:    btw longchen also said the same thing that sambhogakaya is related with the symoblic realm
(12:10 PM) AEN:    dharma dan said Arahats also have a wondrous understanding of all of this that is
unique to them and buddhas (though there may be hints of it at third
path) called the “sambhogakaya.” They know that the full range of
phenomenal reality and even the full range of the emotional life can be
deeply appreciated for what it is. They see that the world of concepts,
language, symbols, visions, thoughts and dreams is fundamentally the
same as the world of materiality, that they both share the same essential
nature from an experiential point of view. The first line of the Gospel of
John, “In the beginning there was the word, and the word was God,” is a
nice way to put it. For those who find this phrase too cryptic, I
paraphrase it as: “From the beginning, concepts, words, dreams, visions,
and the realm of thought have always been an aspect of ultimate reality.”
(12:11 PM) Thusness:    not bad. :)
(12:13 PM) Thusness:    and also all that arises merely due to appropriateness of conditions that are free from  words and concepts.  There are the same reality.
(12:13 PM) AEN:    icic..
(12:15 PM) Thusness:    Having the deepest clarity that the transience is our Buddha Nature.
(12:15 PM) AEN:    oic..
(12:34 PM) AEN:    wat u tink about this, from another website:

The fundamental mind which serves as the basis of all phenomena of cyclic existence and nirvana is posited as the ultimate truth or nature of phenomena  (dharmata, chos nyid); it is also called the ‘clear light’ (abhasvara, ‘od gsal) and uncompounded (asamskrta, ‘dus ma byas). In Nying-ma it is called  the ‘mind-vajra’; this is not the mind that is contrasted with basic knowledge (rig pa) and mind (sems) but the factor of mere luminosity and knowing,  basic knowledge itself. This is the final root of all minds, forever indestructible, immutable, and unbreakable continuum like a vajra. Just as the New  Translation Schools posit a beginningless and endless fundamental mind, so Nying-ma posits a mind-vajra which has no beginning or end and proceeds  without interruption through the effect stage of Buddhahood. It is considered ‘permanent’ in the sense of abiding forever and thus is presented as a  permanent mind. It is permanent not in the sense of not disintegrating moment by moment but in the sense that its continuum is no interrupted...
(12:34 PM) AEN:   
With respect to identifying the clear light in the Great Perfection: when, for instance, one hears a noise, between the time of hearing it and  conceptualizing it as such and such, there is a type of mind devoid of conceptuality but nevertheless not like sleep or samadhi, in which the object is  a reflection of this entity of mere luminosity and knowing. It is at such a point that the basic entity of the mind [clear light] is identified.
(12:37 PM) AEN:    hi u saw the msg?
(12:38 PM) Thusness:    reading
(12:39 PM) AEN:    okie
(12:40 PM) Thusness:    yes but that is not exactly that important. :)
(12:40 PM) AEN:    icic..
(12:40 PM) Thusness:    actually it is the clarity of what ignorance is
(12:41 PM) Thusness:    and how it blinds us.
(12:41 PM) AEN:    wat u mean
(12:41 PM) Thusness:    what have the clear light mistaken as and what is its real nature.
(12:42 PM) Thusness:    that clear luminosity before conceptuality is the pure presence but it is not that important. :)
(12:42 PM) Thusness:    Even you have glimpse it a thousand times, u r no closer to one that has no idea of what the pure presence is.
(12:42 PM) AEN:    oic..
(12:43 PM) Thusness:    even after non-dual, it serves no purpose unless it is understood as the anatta sort of non-dual.
(12:43 PM) Thusness:    the clarity of the arising and passing away.
(12:44 PM) Thusness:    then there is a possibility of dissolving that 'bond of self'.
(12:44 PM) Thusness:    This is just my opinion.
(12:45 PM) AEN:    icic..
(12:45 PM) Thusness:    All holdings are nothing but the result of the same bond, same tendency, same action.
(12:46 PM) AEN:    oic..
(12:46 PM) AEN:    serves no purpose means the propensity is still there?
(12:46 PM) Thusness:    Although having glimpse of this Presence is important, it cannot be misunderstood as the final aim.
(12:47 PM) Thusness:    it cannot be even treated as any sort of arising insight that liberates us from suffering.
(12:48 PM) AEN:    icic..
(12:48 PM) AEN:    then y does hindu treat this sort of insight as liberation/moksha?
(12:48 PM) Thusness:    how i know
(12:48 PM) Thusness:    i am not a hindu
(12:48 PM) Thusness:    ahahah
(12:49 PM) AEN:    oic haha
(12:52 PM) Thusness:    I came across this site self-knowledge, saw u in there too.
(12:52 PM) Thusness:    this nannu is a buddhist.
(12:52 PM) Thusness:    not bad the understanding. :)
(12:52 PM) AEN:    her understanding not bad?
(12:52 PM) AEN:    oh that self knowledge website
(12:52 PM) AEN:    cant remember liao i tink 1 year ago
(12:53 PM) Thusness:    yeah
(12:53 PM) Thusness:    if non-dual experience is factored into her understanding, will be great.
(12:53 PM) AEN:    icic..
(12:53 PM) Thusness:    u posted 2 damn long passages...
(12:53 PM) Thusness:    ai yoh...
(12:54 PM) Thusness:    li li loh loh. :P
(12:54 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(12:54 PM) AEN:    ya i also tot its too long but din change
(12:55 PM) AEN:    how u come to that website
(12:55 PM) Thusness:    i check awakeningtoreality
(12:55 PM) AEN:    haha icic
(12:55 PM) Thusness:    ahaha.
(12:55 PM) Thusness:    u go around promoting ur site
(12:55 PM) Thusness:    lol
(12:56 PM) Thusness:    anyway u should now start to touch the heart of 'dropping'
(12:56 PM) Thusness:    openness
(12:56 PM) Thusness:    or it should rather be put as the 'absence of holding' rather than dropping.
(12:56 PM) AEN:    oic..
(12:57 PM) Thusness:    this touching if stabilized is wisdom itself.  Second only to prajna wisdom.
(12:57 PM) Thusness:    hehee
(12:57 PM) AEN:    icic..
(12:57 PM) AEN:    how is this wisdom
(12:58 PM) Thusness:    because a practitioner will able to intuit directly without conceptuality as the way of liberation
(1:00 PM) AEN:    oic..
(1:01 PM) AEN:    most holdings are thoughts right, so no holding = no thought?
(1:02 PM) AEN:    or rather even if thoughts arise its not held so it passes
(1:06 PM) Thusness:    no lah
(1:08 PM) AEN:    oic its not?
(1:08 PM) AEN:    but when we drop totally there should be no thoughts etc right, even if thoughts are needed they dont stay
(1:18 PM) Thusness:    why do u worry so much?
(1:18 PM) Thusness:    why are u thinking thoughts and no-thoughts?
(1:19 PM) Thusness:    why speculate what is it like?  This itself is such a strong holding and attachment to concepts and ideas.
(1:19 PM) AEN:    oic..
(1:32 PM) AEN:    so its not the problem with thoughts but our views/concepts/ideas?
(1:33 PM) Thusness:    no
(1:33 PM) Thusness:    it is u r always looking for a solution using an inherent/dualistic thought
(1:34 PM) Thusness:    not direct experiencing anything
(1:34 PM) Thusness:    therefore before u even start, u fabricate
(1:34 PM) AEN:    oic..
(1:34 PM) Thusness:    whatever u do are all wrong approaches
(1:35 PM) AEN:    icic.. ya like what amadeus said rite
(1:35 PM) AEN:    which i pasted to longchen
(1:35 PM) Thusness:    what u pasted?
(1:36 PM) AEN:   
hi AEN,

this question doesn't feel right to me

because you bring up the question of identification with duality

and yet, it feels to me, that only mind would have a problem with this

so without "thinking" about this,

is there really a problem?

is there really a question there?

what i'm trying to say, is when you are fully present

and no thought is occurring

there are no questions, no problems,

just "this"



so the question raised, or the apparent problem that has arisen

can't be resolved by the same thinking that created it

another way of saying this it that identification itself is just a concept in the mind

when the mind (thought) is dropped where is the question?

where is the problem?

the same goes for the concept of duality lachen


so all there really is is nonduality

duality exists only in the mind, in our interpretations, in what we know

and then the mind asks how to get out of nonduality

how to get out of itself

that's really a hoot! lol
(1:36 PM) AEN:    longchen also said the same thing: This rising and falling wave sensation is different from using the mind to reason itself out of a predicament. When we use the mind to reason, it is characterised by the need to know an answer or find a solution. The desire in wanting to know the answer or finding a solution is itself a dualistic project of the mind onto a potential future scenario. There is no equanimity in that state. ( http://www.dreamdatum.com/new-phase.html )
(1:40 PM) AEN:    longchen was also explaining that to me yesterday
(1:41 PM) Thusness:    what?
(1:41 PM) Thusness:    this is a new article?
(1:41 PM) AEN:    no this is the article about the arising and falling wave sensation
(1:41 PM) AEN:    a few months ago
(1:41 PM) Thusness:    ic
(1:42 PM) Thusness:    it is a phase that allow the natural dissolution of going after concepts and explanations.
(1:42 PM) Thusness:    there will come a time where great stability comes, where DO becomes a living reality.
(1:42 PM) AEN:    icic..
(1:43 PM) Thusness:    Buddha is not actually putting forward a concept to explain what and what.
(1:43 PM) Thusness:    Buddha is describing.
(1:43 PM) Thusness:    What is.
(1:43 PM) AEN:    oic..
(1:43 PM) Thusness:    describing what is with clarity. :)
(1:43 PM) AEN:    icic..
(1:45 PM) Thusness:    You must treat Buddha's teaching not as a concept to understand
(1:45 PM) Thusness:    but a form of living experience.
(1:45 PM) Thusness:    when the experience manifest, u will know.
(1:46 PM) Thusness:    However due to our propensities, since it is a form of action, it continues to manifest
(1:46 PM) Thusness:    till suffering arises, that 'dropping' is the result of suffering.
(1:47 PM) Thusness:    it is the result of attempting to hold on to a 'non-dual' experience.
(1:47 PM) Thusness:    and it is that suffering becoming its own condition for the realisation of dropping.
(1:48 PM) Thusness:    u must touch the heart of 'dropping'.
(1:49 PM) Thusness:    I have wrote this in quite a few of the posts.  U can locate it.  There are some important points u can take note but again, it is not meant to be a bible.  Just for sharing.
(1:49 PM) AEN:    oic..
(1:49 PM) Thusness:    don't want to keep repeating it. :P
(1:49 PM) AEN:    haha ic
(1:51 PM) Thusness:    Actually if I remember, the first thing i taught u is when u do dropping, don't reason, don't explain, don't think.  Just drop.
(1:57 PM) AEN:    ic..
(1:57 PM) Thusness:    http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/11/right-click-on-picture-then-click-show.html
(1:57 PM) Thusness:    u can also read this.
(1:57 PM) Thusness:    the second door.
(1:57 PM) Thusness:    the passing away.
(1:58 PM) Thusness:    after non-dual, one must understand this passing away.
(1:58 PM) Thusness:    this dropping completely.
(1:58 PM) AEN:    oic..
(2:03 PM) AEN:    practicing naked awareness is also dropping rite
(2:03 PM) AEN:    dropping all concepts, interpretation, label, etc into just the moment of experience
(2:04 PM) AEN:    which is whatever arising and passing, no holding
(2:04 PM) Thusness:    no
(2:04 PM) Thusness:    it may sounds like...ahhaa
(2:05 PM) Thusness:    but that is not what i want to hear from u.
(2:05 PM) Thusness:    it remains as a concept.
(2:05 PM) Thusness:    and there is held lot of holding. :P
(2:05 PM) AEN:    lol wat u mean
(2:11 PM) AEN:    but naked awareness is non conceptual mah
(2:12 PM) AEN:    so wats the difference between naked awareness and dropping
(2:25 PM) Thusness:    u can read: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.html
(2:25 PM) AEN:    ok..
(2:26 PM) Thusness:    Even if I provide u the right answer, u will understand it wrongly.
(2:26 PM) Thusness:    Even Buddha has spoken the truth, we will not know it.
(2:26 PM) Thusness:    Why?
(2:27 PM) Thusness:    At certain point it is explained.
(2:27 PM) Thusness:    But there will also come a point in time, it is not about explaining anything.
(2:28 PM) Thusness:    when u ask is it the same as this or that, ur mind is trying to figure out what that cannot be conveyed in words.
(2:29 PM) Thusness:    Words are spoken and questions are answered but there is no understanding.
(2:29 PM) Thusness:    It is also not the sort of understanding u truly want.
(2:29 PM) Thusness:    But u do not know it. :)
(2:30 PM) Thusness:    What that is being done is just a habit, a tendency of attempting to know what is 'dropping', what is naked awareness.
(2:31 PM) Thusness:    But now u should practice that phase that is beyond asking and answering.
(2:32 PM) Thusness:    To learn how to 'touch' the heart of 'arising' and 'passing away'
(2:32 PM) Thusness:    To experience the 'mood' of complete dropping.
(2:32 PM) Thusness:    There is no asking, no answering.  All answers are wrong.
(2:32 PM) AEN:    oic..
(2:33 PM) AEN:    btw we must experience naked awareness and dropping as one rite
(2:33 PM) Thusness:    If u attempt to use arbitrary thoughts and try to achieve or understand it by mental grasping, u missed it.
(2:33 PM) AEN:    oic
(2:33 PM) Thusness:    what u must do, is just drop.
(2:33 PM) Thusness:    u will not know it through thinking and asking.
(2:34 PM) AEN:    icic..
(2:34 PM) Thusness:    but u will know, if u truly 'drop and let go'
(2:34 PM) Thusness:    if there is nothing else but the complete willingness of letting go, u will know.
(2:35 PM) AEN:    oic..

(11:35 PM) AEN:    is this the experience of DO:
(11:37 PM) AEN:    When we look at a chair, we see the wood, but we fail to observe the tree, the forest, the carpenter, or our own mind. When we meditate on it, we can see the entire universe in all its inter-woven and interdependent relations in the chair. The presence of the wood reveals the presence of the tree. The presence of the leaf reveals the presence of the sun. The presence of the apple blossom reveals the presence of the apple. Meditators can see the one in the many, the many in the one. Even before they see the chair, they can see its presence in the heart of living reality. The chair is not separate. It exists only in its interdependent relations with everything else in the universe. It Is because all others  Are. If it is not, then all other things are not either.
(11:42 PM) Thusness:    the vietnam monk?
(11:42 PM) AEN:    "...The notion of inter-origination (paratantra) is very close to living reality. It annihilates dualistic concepts, one/many, inside/outside, time/space, mind/matter, and so forth, which the mind uses to confine, divide, and shape reality. THe notion of inter-origination can be used not only to destroy habits of cutting up reality, but also to bring about a direct experience of reality. As a tool, however, it should not be considered a form of reality in itself."
(11:42 PM) AEN:    yeah
(11:42 PM) AEN:    thich nhat hanh
(11:43 PM) Thusness:    My opinion is No.. Hehe
(11:43 PM) AEN:    oic how come
(11:44 PM) Thusness:    DO is not a form of analysis
(11:44 PM) Thusness:    It is a form of direct experience
(11:45 PM) AEN:    "Paratantra is the very nature of living reality, the absence of an essential self. Just as a triangle exists only because three lines intersect each another, you cannot say any thing exists in itself. Because they have no independent identity, all phenomena are described as empty. This does not mean that phenomena are absent, only that they are empty of an essential self, of a permanent identity independent of other phenomena. In the same way, in bootstrap physics the word "particles" does not mean three-dimensional specks which exist independently of one another."
(11:45 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:45 PM) Thusness:    Read more of zen master dogen's work
(11:45 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:45 PM) AEN:    u got which of his books
(11:46 PM) Thusness:    impermanence is buddha nature
(11:47 PM) Thusness:    But not very good
(11:47 PM) Thusness:    It cannot bring out the essence of Master Dogen.
(11:48 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:55 PM) AEN:    "When we say I know the wind is blowing, we don't think that there is something blowing something else. "Wind' goes with 'blowing'. If there is no blowing, there is no wind. It is the same with knowing. Mind is the knower; the knower is mind. We are talking about knowing in relation to the wind. 'To know' is to know something. Knowing is inseparable from the wind. Wind and knowing are one. We can say, 'Wind,' and that is enough. The presence of wind indicates the presence of knowing, and the presence of the action of blowing'." "..The most universal verb is the verb 'to be'': I am, you are, the mountain is, a river is. The verb 'to be' does not express the dynamic living state of the universe. To express that we must say 'become.' These two verbs can also be used as nouns: 'being", "becoming". But being what? Becoming what? 'Becoming' means 'evolving ceaselessly', and is as universal as the verb "to be." It is not possible to express the "being" of a phenomenon and its "becoming" as if the two were independent. In the case of wind, blowing is the being and the becoming...."
(11:56 PM) AEN:    "In any phenomena, whether psychological, physiological, or physical, there is dynamic movement, life. We can say that this movement, this life, is the universal manifestation, the most commonly recognized action of knowing. We must not regard 'knowing' as something from the outside which comes to breathe life into the universe. It is the life of the universe itself. The dance and the dancer are one."
(12:00 AM) Thusness:    This is good.
(12:01 AM) Thusness:    From who?
(12:01 AM) AEN:    thich nhat hanh
(12:02 AM) Thusness:    Good
(12:02 AM) Thusness:    Actually he is talking about awareness
(12:03 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:03 AM) Thusness:    Knowing is not conceptual knowing
(12:03 AM) AEN:    icic ya
(12:04 AM) Thusness:    It is just an immediate presence of an arising
(12:05 AM) Thusness:    Which book?
(12:06 AM) AEN:    "In the phenomenal world, things seem to exist as separate entities which have a specific place: 'This' is on the outside of 'that'. When penetrate the principle of interdependence, we see that this sense of separateness is false. Each object is composed of an contains all others. In the light of meditation on interdependence, the concept of 'one/many' collapses, and takes with it 'large/small,' 'inside/outside,' and all the others."
(12:06 AM) AEN:    its "The Sun My Heart"
(12:06 AM) AEN:    one of the earlier books by him... published in 1988
(12:06 AM) AEN:    i bought it on joan tollifson's recommendation
(12:06 AM) AEN:    in her recommended bk page
(12:06 AM) AEN:    hehe
(12:07 AM) AEN:    "...I have tremendous respect and appreciation for this man and his work. Very deep, subtle, nondual insight. This particular book, The Sun My Heart, is absolutely excellent, very very highly recommended.."
(12:08 AM) AEN:    "This is profound nondual understanding coming from a man who has lived it under the most challenging of circumstances."
(12:09 AM) AEN:    i also bought one of toni packer's earlier bks
(12:11 AM) Thusness:    This book is good
(12:11 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:11 AM) Thusness:    Think I will get it
(12:11 AM) AEN:    oic
(12:12 AM) Thusness:    But what said must be experienced real time and non conceptual
(12:12 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:13 AM) Thusness:    Infact as a verb, as action, there can be no concept, only experience
(12:14 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:15 AM) Thusness:    Means in Buddhism, non-dual anatta is the experience of subject/Object as verb, as action
(12:16 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:16 AM) Thusness:    there is no mind, only mental activities
(12:16 AM) AEN:    oic.. means no source?
(12:17 AM) Thusness:    Source as the passing phenomena
(12:17 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:17 AM) Thusness:    What is the title again?
(12:17 AM) Thusness:    U already have the book?
(12:18 AM) AEN:    The Sun My Heart
(12:18 AM) AEN:    ya
(12:19 AM) Thusness:    Why that title
(12:19 AM) Thusness:    I can't  write to u once I close ur window in mobile when u r offline
(12:20 AM)    AEN  has changed his/her status to Away
(12:20 AM) AEN:    oh
(12:20 AM) AEN:    i come online
(12:20 AM) AEN:    hmm i check the bk..
(12:24 AM) Thusness:    What is the url of joan?
(12:25 AM) AEN:    "...One day, while sitting in a forest, mimicking the Prajna Paramita Heart Sutra, I wrote: Sunshine is green leaves, Green leaves are sunshine, Sunshine is not different from green leaves, Green leaves are not different from sunshine, The same is true of all forms and colors.' As soon as the sun of awareness shines, at the very moment a great change takes place. Meditation lets the sun of awareness rise easily, so we can see more clearly. When we meditate, we seem to have two selves. One is the flowing river of thoughts and feelings, and the other is the sun of awareness that shines on them. Which is our own self? Which is true? Which false? Which bad? Please calm down, my friend. Lay down your sharp sword of conceptual thinking. Don't be in such a hurry to cut your "self" in two. Both are self. Neither is true. Neither is false. They are both true and both false.
(12:28 AM) AEN:    We know that light and color are not separate phenomena. In the same way, the sun of self and the river of self are not different. Sit with me, let a smile form on your lips, let your sun shine, close your eyes, if need be, to see your self more clearly. Your sun of awareness is only part of your river of self, isn't it? it follows the same laws as all psychological phenomena: it arises and vanishes away... ...I just told you to put down your sword of conceptualization and not cut your self into sections. Actually you couldn't, even if you wanted to. Do you think you can separate the sunshine from the green color of the leaves/ You can no more separate the observing self from the self observed... ,..The ever-present sun of awareness is at the same time its own object."
(12:28 AM) AEN:    oh
(12:29 AM) AEN:    http://www.joantollifson.com/recommend.html
(12:29 AM) AEN:    thats the recommended bk list
(12:34 AM) AEN:    wah like many of the bks i read all mentioned in it: toni packer, nisargadtta, steve hagen, sailor bob adamson, thich nhat hanh, j krishnamurti, bernie glassman, dogen, nathan gill, ramesh balsekar, david loy, tony parsons, jeff foster, ken wilber, etc also mentioned haha.. she read alot of bks
(12:45 AM) AEN:    alot on thich nhat hanh bk is on awareness, non duality, interdependence i think
(12:58 AM) Thusness:    Yes
(12:59 AM) Thusness:    But the sun my heart sounds good
(12:59 AM) AEN:    icic..
 

Session Start: Saturday, August 30, 2008

 

(2:57 PM) Thusness:      wikipedia define well for non-duality in Buddhism.

(2:57 PM) AEN: i edited one :P

(2:57 PM) AEN: a part of it

(2:57 PM) Thusness:      hahaha

(2:57 PM) Thusness:      no wonder

(2:57 PM) Thusness:      sounded so much like my thinking.

(2:57 PM) Thusness:      :P

(2:57 PM) AEN: hahaha

(2:58 PM) Thusness:      u can edit ah

(2:58 PM) AEN: anyone can edit in wikipedia

(2:58 PM) AEN: u can edit also

(2:58 PM) Thusness:      ic. :)

(2:58 PM) Thusness:      Means originally there is non-dual in buddhism there?

(2:59 PM) Thusness:      or u added?

(2:59 PM) AEN: the old version is no good, they were saying mistaking nondual for like the yin and yang concept... and saying that theravada has no non dual teaching

(2:59 PM) AEN: i changed parts of it

(3:00 PM) Thusness:      ic.  If anyone can change, isn't it dangerous?

(3:00 PM) Thusness:      fortunately what u wrote is safe...ahaha

(3:00 PM) AEN: got some 'moderators' bah, so if ppl spam they can block them and return to a previous edit

(3:00 PM) Thusness:      many Theravadins refuses to see the truth of it. :)

(3:00 PM) Thusness:      or insight hasn't arisen.

(3:01 PM) AEN: icic..

(3:01 PM) Thusness:      but some others modified for urs again right?

(3:01 PM) AEN: ya and there is an article by one of the famous theravada teacher refuting non duality in theravada

(3:01 PM) Thusness:      yeah

(3:01 PM) Thusness:      I read about that.  He see non-duality as only the aspect of merging with Brahman.

(3:02 PM) Thusness:      not on the aspect of object/subject as in illusion.

(3:02 PM) AEN: ya

(3:02 PM) AEN: and also samsara/nirvana, cos he tinks they are separate

(3:02 PM) Thusness:      u should focus on this.  As it requires deep experience and insight to realise it.

(3:03 PM) Thusness:      that DO and emptiness and anatta, seeing 'verb' as the right view of non-duality.

(3:03 PM) Thusness:      right understanding.

(3:03 PM) AEN: icic..

(3:03 PM) Thusness:      then Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen becomes one.

(3:03 PM) AEN: the part i changed is this: "All schools of Buddhism teach No-Self (Pali anatta, Sanskrit anatman). The early schools, represented in modern times by the surviving Theravada, refused to discuss ontology, in particular refusing to be drawn on the question of the existence or non-existence (or any other theoretical possibility) of an Enlightened Buddha after death.[4] Thus all theories of Duality are rejected, but not replaced by a theory of Non-Duality."

(3:03 PM) AEN: the other parts i never changed

(3:04 PM) Thusness:      u changed to what?

(3:04 PM) Thusness:      i think the moderator changed a bit right?

(3:05 PM) AEN: i only changed the first paragraph

(3:05 PM) AEN: the others are written by others

(3:05 PM) Thusness:      what u changed?

(3:05 PM) AEN: that part

(3:05 PM) AEN: i removed and replaced with the non duality with subject/object

(3:05 PM) AEN: replaced more than 1 year ago liao

(3:05 PM) AEN: haven changed so far

(3:06 PM) Thusness:      just that sentence?

(3:06 PM) AEN: ya

(3:06 PM) Thusness:      what about the bahiya sutta?

(3:06 PM) Thusness:      u placed it in?

(3:06 PM) AEN: thats the first para

(3:06 PM) AEN: ya

(3:06 PM) Thusness:      so what did u change exactly?

(3:06 PM) AEN: from "All schools of Buddhism teach No-Self (Pali anatta, Sanskrit anatman). The early schools, represented in modern times by the surviving Theravada, refused to discuss ontology, in particular refusing to be drawn on the question of the existence or non-existence (or any other theoretical possibility) of an Enlightened Buddha after death.[4] Thus all theories of Duality are rejected, but not replaced by a theory of Non-Duality."

(3:06 PM) AEN: to

(3:07 PM) AEN: All schools of Buddhism teach No-Self (Pali anatta, Sanskrit anatman). No-Self in Buddhism is the Non-Duality of Subject and Object, which is very explicitly stated by the Buddha in verses such as “In seeing, there is just seeing. No seer and nothing seen. In hearing, there is just hearing. No hearer and nothing heard.”. Non-Duality in Buddhism does not constitute merging with a supreme Brahman, but realising that the duality of a self/subject/agent/watcher/doer in relation to the object/world is an illusion.

(3:08 PM) Thusness:      well written

(3:08 PM) Thusness:      u must be able to differentiate between non-dual experience and what i meant by non-dual insight

(3:09 PM) AEN: icic..

(3:09 PM) AEN: non-dual insight is realising no agent rite

(3:12 PM) Thusness:      yes.  The right view is seeing 'action' like the 'verb' as correctly phrased in "The Sun, My Heart"  has been transformed into object/subject view.

(3:13 PM) Thusness:      and how this 'action' is linked to DO.

(3:13 PM) AEN: u mean transformed from, or into

(3:13 PM) AEN: icic

(3:13 PM) Thusness:      from.

(3:13 PM) Thusness:      heheeh

(3:13 PM) AEN: ok

(3:14 PM) Thusness:      it is very difficult to have that insight to see this experience of 'non-duality' is actually what that is described by Buddha.

(3:15 PM) Thusness:      For this to take place, the practitioner must have superb concentration to sustain in bare attention in order to have a break-through.

(3:16 PM) Thusness:      or he must be like Buddha.

(3:16 PM) Thusness:      Perfect clarity of the arising.

(3:17 PM) Thusness:      The tendency is the practitioner will fall into the Advaita sort of realisation.

(3:17 PM) Thusness:      Brahman is not being replaced by DO.

(3:17 PM) Thusness:      this is the difference.

(3:17 PM) AEN: icic..

(3:18 PM) AEN: so its v impt to  have to practice concentration and bare attention?

(3:19 PM) Thusness:      no

(3:19 PM) Thusness:      bare attention sort of 'yes'.

(3:19 PM) Thusness:      concentration 'no'... u don't really need concentration.

(3:19 PM) Thusness:      I am quite clear at my current stage. :)

(3:19 PM) AEN: but u said 'superb concentration'

(3:20 PM) AEN: wat u mean

(3:20 PM) Thusness:      that is if insight hasn't arisen.

(3:20 PM) AEN: oic but even when there is superb concentration leading to non dual experience

(3:20 PM) AEN: thats not the insight rite?

(3:20 PM) Thusness:      yes

(3:21 PM) Thusness:      therefore concentration is still needed until insight arises, that it is always so.

(3:21 PM) Thusness:      there never was a self and no-self is a seal.

(3:21 PM) Thusness:      that always is.

(3:21 PM) Thusness:      then it has to sink deep into our inmost consciousness

(3:22 PM) Thusness:      there will come a day that we are so clear of non-dual luminosity and emptiness.

(3:22 PM) Thusness:      and all the teaching of Buddha. :)

(3:22 PM) Thusness:      u will be able to c the links of all the teachings from Theravada to Dzogchen.  All are the same.

(3:23 PM) Thusness:      No point arguing really. :P

(3:23 PM) AEN: back

(3:23 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:24 PM) Thusness:      The insight 'sort of ripen'

(3:24 PM) Thusness:      and all experiences become transparently clear.

(3:24 PM) Thusness:      very very clear that it is like DO.

(3:24 PM) Thusness:      luminous and yet empty.

(3:25 PM) Thusness:      Initially we will still struggle due to propensities.

(3:25 PM) Thusness:      But there will come a time it becomes effortless.

(3:25 PM) Thusness:      2-3 yrs after the initial glimpse of emptiness after non-dual anatta insight.

(3:26 PM) AEN: icic..

(3:26 PM) Thusness:      the two truth of egolessness

(3:26 PM) Thusness:      Form and self.

(3:27 PM) Thusness:      There is no ontological 'Itness' to be found as 'Self'

(3:28 PM) Thusness:      And similarly no 'ITness' to be found in Forms.

(3:28 PM) Thusness:      like the 'redness' of a flower.

(3:28 PM) Thusness:      merely conditions

(3:28 PM) Thusness:      There are only appearances

(3:28 PM) Thusness:      and that appearances is Awareness.

(3:29 PM) Thusness:      that Appearances is always functioning like DO.

(3:29 PM) Thusness:      Awareness is always So.

(3:29 PM) Thusness:      not as perceived by the Advaita practitioner.

(3:29 PM) Thusness:      That Awareness is the Eternal, unchanging Brahman.

(3:30 PM) Thusness:      The experience is non-dual but was distorted.

(3:30 PM) Thusness:      They will not understand DO and Karma.

(3:32 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:32 PM) AEN: bcos DO and karma is like 'verb' rite

(3:32 PM) AEN: while reality to them is unchanging

(3:33 PM) AEN: their reality is 'being' but buddhism is like 'becoming'?

(3:33 PM) Thusness:      unchanging because they are unable to go beyond the deeply held bond of 'I'.

(3:33 PM) AEN: icic..

(3:34 PM) Thusness:      There is no problem with establishing firmly in the view of emptiness and DO.

(3:34 PM) Thusness:      but the purpose is to give up rather than picking up.

(3:34 PM) Thusness:      The truth of DO and Emptiness is in non-abiding, non-graspable nature of our pristine awareness.

(3:35 PM) Thusness:      when a practitioner truly experience Awareness as Empty (non-inherent) Luminosity, there is total openness.

(3:36 PM) Thusness:      Total openness because all Appearances are Awareness itself.

(3:36 PM) Thusness:      Experience becomes unreserved and open.

(3:36 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:36 PM) AEN: its like all pervadingness?

(3:36 PM) Thusness:      It is.

(3:37 PM) Thusness:      But u must understand correctly.

(3:37 PM) Thusness:      it is due to the dropping of the center

(3:37 PM) Thusness:      that there is no point of reference and non-local

(3:37 PM) Thusness:      do u know what i mean?

(3:38 PM) AEN: ya think so

(3:38 PM) Thusness:      It is not emanating out from a center.

(3:38 PM) Thusness:      This is most difficult to break-through.

(3:39 PM) Thusness:      This is because we are still holding the 'I' and this holding has not dissolved.

(3:39 PM) Thusness:      But 'Emptiness' will dissolve that.

(3:39 PM) Thusness:      DO will dissolve that.

(3:39 PM) Thusness:      a center, a place, a locality, a time is not needed.

(3:39 PM) Thusness:      When condition is, that is.

(3:39 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:40 PM) Thusness:      Realising Emptiness dissolves that center.

(3:40 PM) Thusness:      after non-dual experience, the initial understanding of our Emptiness nature will help dissolve that further.

(3:40 PM) Thusness:      and 2-3 yrs later, it will become clear. :)

(3:41 PM) Thusness:      it will take time. :)

(3:41 PM) Thusness:      not so fast...ahahah

(3:41 PM) AEN: icic..

(3:41 PM) Thusness:      and to have that experience, total willingness to drop is most important.

(3:42 PM) Thusness:      otherwise sustaining non-conceptuality will be painful. :)

(3:42 PM) Thusness:      don't think of that first.

(3:42 PM) Thusness:      it will come naturally.

(3:42 PM) Thusness:      because no-self and emptiness once realised and experienced, non-conceptuality is natural.

(3:43 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:43 PM) Thusness:      if there is no subject-object split, how can there be conceptuality?

(3:43 PM) AEN: but we still have to practice non conceptuality rite? like bare awareness also practicing non conceptually

(3:43 PM) AEN: icic

(3:43 PM) Thusness:      if there is, that means the propensity is still there.

(3:44 PM) Thusness:      so when the initial non-dual insight arise, there will be a period of desync as i told u and practitioner will want to rest in naked awareness.

(3:44 PM) Thusness:      but what longchen said is very true; do not sink into concepts.

(3:45 PM) Thusness:      but non-conceptuality cannot be an object of practice.

(3:45 PM) Thusness:      if it is, it is just a natural attribute of anatta.

(3:45 PM) Thusness:      of anatta experience.

(3:46 PM) Thusness:      the raw and bare experience of sound, sight, taste...

(3:46 PM) Thusness:      till it is one.

(3:46 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:47 PM) Thusness:      It is the 'dropping' or 'non-grasping' that is more important. :)

(3:47 PM) Thusness:      accompanied with the deep insight of non-duality and emptiness.

(3:48 PM) AEN: icic..

(3:49 PM) Thusness:      The biggest problem after non-dual experience is wanting to have that experience.

(3:49 PM) AEN: wat u mean

(3:49 PM) Thusness:      hearing 'sound', there is the urge to hear it clearer, more vivid and clear

(3:49 PM) Thusness:      when seeing, there is the urge to see clearer.

(3:50 PM) Thusness:      so there is effort towards sustaining 'raw'

(3:50 PM) Thusness:      But the truth is in 'dropping the self', 'dropping any form of grasping' that luminous clarity improves.

(3:51 PM) Thusness:      that moment is gone completely.

(3:51 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:51 PM) Thusness:      so practice the 'non-grasping', totally open, drop all.

(3:51 PM) Thusness:      u must 'feel' the essence of it.

(3:52 PM) Thusness:      read the second door I told longchen, it is important.

(3:52 PM) AEN: icic..

(3:52 PM) AEN: but btw when practicing mindfulness there is an effort towards sustaining 'rawness' rite

(3:52 PM) Thusness:      first is non-duality no-self , then it is second door.

(3:52 PM) AEN: u mean shld be totally effortless

(3:53 PM) AEN: icic..

(3:53 PM) AEN: hmm ya joan tollifson said: This open being is not something to be practiced methodically. Toni points out that it takes no effort to hear the sounds in the room; it's all here. There's no "me" (and no problem) until thought comes in and says: "Am I doing it right? Is this 'awareness?' Am I enlightened?"; Suddenly the spaciousness is gone?the mind is occupied with a story and the emotions it generates.

(3:53 PM) Thusness:      yes mindfulness will eventually become natural and effortless when true insight arise and the whole purpose of mindfulness as a practice becomes clear.

(3:53 PM) AEN: oic

(3:54 PM) Thusness:      yes.

(3:54 PM) Thusness:      That will only happen when the propensity of 'I' is there.

(3:55 PM) Thusness:      When our Emptiness nature is there, that sort of thought will not arise.

(3:55 PM) AEN: toni packer: ... Meditation that is free and effortless, without goal, without expectation, is an expression of Pure Being that has nowhere to go, nothing to get.

 

There is no need for awareness to turn anywhere. It's here! Everything is here in awareness! When there is a waking up from fantasy, there is no one who does it. Awareness and the sound of a plane are here with no one in the middle trying to "do" them or bring them together. They are here together! The only thing that keeps things (and people) apart is the "me"-circuit with its separative thinking. When that is quiet, divisions do not exist.

(3:55 PM) AEN: icic

(3:55 PM) Thusness:      but it will even after the insight arise before stabilization.

(3:55 PM) AEN: oic

(3:56 PM) Thusness:      There is no Awareness and Sound.

(3:56 PM) Thusness:      Awareness is that Sound.  It is because we have certain definition of Awareness that the mind cannot sync Awareness and Sound together.

(3:56 PM) AEN: icic..

(3:57 PM) Thusness:      When this inherent view is gone, it becomes very clear that Appearance is Awareness, everything is nakedly exposed and unreservedly experienced effortlessly.

(3:57 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:58 PM) Thusness:      a person hit a bell, no sound is being produced.   Mere conditions. :P

(3:58 PM) Thusness:      Tong, that is awareness.

(3:58 PM) AEN: icic..

(3:59 PM) AEN: wat u mean by no sound is being produced

(3:59 PM) Thusness:      u go experience and think lah

(3:59 PM) Thusness:      no point explaining.

(3:59 PM) AEN: no locality rite, its not produced from something

(4:00 PM) Thusness:      no

(4:00 PM) Thusness:      hitting, bell, person, ears, whatever whatever are summed as 'conditions'

(4:00 PM) Thusness:      necessary for 'sound' to arise.

(4:00 PM) AEN: icic..

(4:01 PM) AEN: oh the sound is not externally existing

(4:01 PM) AEN: but just an arising of condition

(4:01 PM) Thusness:      nor internally existing

(4:01 PM) AEN: icic

(4:02 PM) Thusness:      then the mind think, 'I' hear.

(4:02 PM) Thusness:      or the mind think I am an independent soul.

(4:02 PM) Thusness:      Without me there is no 'sound'

(4:02 PM) Thusness:      but i am not the 'sound'

(4:02 PM) Thusness:      and the ground reality, the base for all things to arise.

(4:03 PM) Thusness:      this is only half true.

(4:03 PM) Thusness:      a deeper realisation is there is no separation.  We treat 'sound' as external.

(4:03 PM) Thusness:      not seeing that as 'conditions'

(4:03 PM) Thusness:      there is no sound out there or in here.

(4:04 PM) Thusness:      it is our subject/object dichotomy way of seeing/analysing/understanding that makes it so.

(4:04 PM) Thusness:      u will have an experience soon. :P

(4:04 PM) AEN: oic

(4:04 PM) AEN: wat u mean

(4:04 PM) Thusness:      go meditate.

(4:04 PM) AEN: lol ok

 

(7:58 PM) AEN: when we drop we will eventually lose the sense of the body rite like being numb and disappearing?

(7:59 PM) Thusness:      depends but ultimately will.

(8:00 PM) AEN: icic..

 

(8:02 PM) Thusness:      Do u think this is right?

(8:02 PM) AEN: no cos they still separate emptiness from thoughts mah

(8:02 PM) AEN: unlike the clarifying the natural state book

(8:02 PM) Thusness:      So what should it be?

(8:02 PM) AEN: which the thought is emptiness and awareness itself

(8:03 PM) Thusness:      yes. :)

(8:04 PM) Thusness:      One very important point, arises whenever the condition is right for it to arise.

(8:04 PM) Thusness:      Do not separate any arising from conditions.

(8:05 PM) AEN: ic..

(8:06 PM) AEN: so thats like everything as interdependent and empty of inherent existence?

(8:07 PM) AEN: DO means whatever arise is only as it is due to its specific conditions rise, thus there is no inherency

(8:08 PM) AEN: *rite

(8:09 PM) AEN: everything from thoughts to sights to etc are just one interdependent experience?

(8:09 PM)           Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle

(8:23 PM) AEN: DO is like saying everything only exist for a moment (ungraspable, changing) where they are due to conditions?

(8:25 PM) AEN: and everything as in sensations and perceptions

(8:26 PM)           Thusness has changed his/her status to Online

(8:27 PM) Thusness:      Yes.

(8:27 PM) Thusness:      But u do not know what is sensations and perceptions. :)

(8:27 PM) Thusness:      ahahha

(8:27 PM) AEN: just existence lor.. awareness?

(8:28 PM) Thusness:      that is definitions. :)

(8:28 PM) Thusness:      u c, initially u got to have an idea then u have to go non-conceptual and directly experience.

(8:29 PM) Thusness:      so that you may experience what that is taught.

(8:30 PM) Thusness:      But if you practice naked awareness straight away, the likelihood is the experience will be distorted.  Otherwise why Advaita?

(8:30 PM) Thusness:      and the Vedas?

(8:30 PM) Thusness:      So firmly established the views of anatta and emptiness and experience it non-conceptually.

(8:31 PM) Thusness:      since 'it' is all there is, u r experiencing 'the all'.

(8:31 PM) Thusness:      But ur mind now is always wanting to 'know'

(8:31 PM) Thusness:      u attempt to 'know' through definition.

(8:32 PM) Thusness:      u try to find out a solution through analysis and u r attempting to deduce 'what is'.

(8:33 PM) Thusness:      It cannot be done after a certain stage, u have to go non-conceptual, u must be direct in experience.

(8:33 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:34 PM) Thusness:      then slowly u will realise what longchen mean by going non-conceptual.

(8:34 PM) AEN: actually we cant say anything about awareness other than its a form of existence rite.. but every experience is different due to diff conditions and changing every moment.. so any concept about wat it is is not right

(8:34 PM) AEN: icic

(8:35 PM) Thusness:      that is don't even engage in mental exercise to find a solution...it is just that 'mood', that auto-release from grasping

(8:35 PM) Thusness:      although what u said is right, u r unsure and therefore it is mere concepts.

(8:36 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:36 PM) Thusness:      So whatever said, it is 'no'.

(8:36 PM) Thusness:      because it is not important now.

(8:37 PM) Thusness:      or at this level of practice.

(8:37 PM) Thusness:      if u cannot have a direct touch, whatever said is wrong.

(8:37 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:38 PM) Thusness:      because that level of conceptual understanding is passed, if u continue to cling to it then it is a disservice.  You r bringing the raft wherever u go.

(8:38 PM) Thusness:      now it becomes a stronger momentum that u continue to understanding in terms of 'concepts'.

(8:39 PM) Thusness:      This is what longchen meant by it becomes a hindrance instead of help.

(8:39 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:39 PM) Thusness:      and that is what u r facing now.

(8:39 PM) Thusness:      but before that u need it like a raft, if u continue to carry it around and not know how to drop it, then it becomes a problem.

(8:39 PM) AEN: ya just now when i meditate i notice a tendency to figure out things conceptually, but after a while i just drop everything

(8:40 PM) AEN: icic

(8:40 PM) Thusness:      what u have to experience that drop now.

(8:40 PM) Thusness:      u will continue to argue within urself.  Trying to understand conceptually and theoretically.

(8:40 PM) AEN: then at one point i felt like as if my body is sort of fading, but not v intense... but i got so sleepy that i went to sleep instead

(8:40 PM) AEN: oic

(8:41 PM) Thusness:      that is good. :)

(8:41 PM) Thusness:      u will continue to face that till u can drop off completely.

(8:41 PM) Thusness:      but non-dual luminosity still need arise.

(8:42 PM) Thusness:      but when it arises, it will be readily realised as anatta.

(8:43 PM) Thusness:      it is better for u now to think of 'there is thinking, no thinker'

(8:43 PM) Thusness:      there is hearing, no hearer

(8:43 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:43 PM) Thusness:      U must remember about that dispassion. :)

(8:43 PM) Thusness:      that dropping, both must go hand in hand.

(8:43 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:44 PM) Thusness:      after the first arising of insight, try giving urself another 4-5 yrs.

(8:44 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:44 PM) Thusness:      it is not easy to overcome completely the 'sense of self'

(8:44 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:45 PM) Thusness:      But it can be done. :)

(8:45 PM) AEN: icic..z

(8:45 PM) AEN: but not everyone will reach emptiness after 5 years rite, like ken wilber etc?

(8:45 PM) Thusness:      drop and open completely to all sensations.

(8:45 PM) AEN: icic

(8:46 PM) Thusness:      ken did not fully establish the right view of emptiness, DO.

(8:46 PM) Thusness:      and therefore although the experience is non-dual, the 'Brahman' cannot be replaced with the right view of "DO and Emptiness"

(8:47 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:47 PM) Thusness:      So is Theravada. :P

(8:48 PM) Thusness:      If there is no-self and only the phenomena, how can there be dual?

(8:48 PM) Thusness:      Because Theravadin did not go through the Advaita Vedanta experience, they did not know that the experience is the same.

(8:49 PM) Thusness:      They are talking about the same experience but the implication of having insight of anatta and DO is different.

(8:49 PM) Thusness:      The experience is totally different. :)

(8:49 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:49 PM) AEN: so

(8:50 PM) AEN: is the experience same or different?

(8:50 PM) AEN: lol

(8:50 PM) Thusness:      How many times must I tell u that it is the same.

(8:50 PM) AEN: Thusness says:

The experience is totally different. :)

(8:50 PM) Thusness:      Both are non-dual experience.

(8:50 PM) AEN: icic

(8:51 PM) Thusness:      but after that, emptiness will provide a new quality of insight and due to that clarity, non-dual experience is refined.

(8:51 PM) Thusness:      Still non-dual but a much deeper degree of experience.

(8:52 PM) Thusness:      how could it be 'other than non-dual'?

(8:52 PM) Thusness:      means suddenly there is a 'split'

(8:52 PM) Thusness:      the experience is still non-dual but there are differing degree of luminosity and clarity.

(8:52 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:53 PM) Thusness:      just like 5 aggregates to the elimination of the mental formation to 18 dhatus

(8:53 PM) Thusness:      from 18 Dhatus to just one DO or Empty luminosity.

(8:53 PM) AEN: oh btw i remember u said i tink 2 years ago nisargadatta and ramesh balsekar may have eradicated certain self propensity even more than u though the insight into emptiness is not there?

(8:54 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:54 PM) Thusness:      Where practitioner find it even meaningless about differentiating eyes, ears, noise...

(8:54 PM) Thusness:      just mere conditions

(8:54 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:54 PM) Thusness:      for the arising of awareness

(8:54 PM) Thusness:      further deconstructed.

(8:54 PM) Thusness:      like the 'sense of body' is dropped.

(8:55 PM) Thusness:      sensation or perception are no more understood as sensation and perception

(8:55 PM) Thusness:      thoughts are no more understood as thoughts

(8:55 PM) Thusness:      just our marvellous activities of our buddha nature.

(8:55 PM) AEN: oic y no longer understood as sensation

(8:55 PM) AEN: or perception

(8:56 PM) Thusness:      it is like the understanding of why the phenomena is our buddha nature.

(8:56 PM) Thusness:      why transience are our very nature.

(8:56 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:56 PM) AEN: but y cant they be called sensation

(8:56 PM) Thusness:      yeah?

(8:57 PM) Thusness:      it can be called sensation.

(8:57 PM) AEN: hmm is that like no more differentiating eyes, ears, nose etc?

(8:57 PM) Thusness:      just like the body can be called the body

(8:57 PM) Thusness:      nothing change.

(8:57 PM) Thusness:      But being deconstructed.

(8:57 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:57 PM) Thusness:      why do ppl say there is no sense of body?

(8:58 PM) Thusness:      similar explanation for sensations and perceptions.

(8:59 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:00 PM) Thusness:      This is like being non-conceptual, u don't classified them or experience them as defined in the ordinary sense.

(9:00 PM) Thusness:      it is just non-dual luminous presence that is empty.

(9:01 PM) Thusness:      there is no boundary.

(9:01 PM) AEN: icic..

(9:01 PM) AEN: btw u said theres no differentiating of senses, is this like this: "Years later we suddenly ask, 'How are we to look?' For almost all of us, there was such a time when feeling, touching, listening, hearing, and seeing were all one movement in harmony with the environment, not separate from it. The moving of a tree in the wind was the moving of the head, the body, the eyes looking, the ears listening."

(9:02 PM) Thusness:      yeah u were asking?

(9:02 PM) AEN: ya im asking is this like no differentiation of the senses

(9:03 PM) Thusness:      u must describe it as so.

(9:04 PM) Thusness:      it is just one movement.

(9:04 PM) AEN: icic..

(9:05 PM) Thusness:      it is just one living reality. :)

(9:05 PM) Thusness:      The advaita vedanta practitioner will have the same experience.

(9:06 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:06 PM) Thusness:      it is just the depth of clarity.

(9:07 PM) Thusness:      There is a point it is difficult to clear until the practitioner realises that it is a wrong understanding. :)

(9:07 PM) Thusness:      'Wu Ming' is what Buddha call it. :)

(9:07 PM) AEN: icic..

(9:08 PM) Thusness:      To me, no way to break through and always remain as a stage and not a seal.

(9:08 PM) Thusness:      But it appears to them it is effortless and yet there is effort.

(9:08 PM) Thusness:      :)

(9:09 PM) Thusness:      Difficult to explain lah

(9:09 PM) AEN: u mean they thought it is effortless yet they use effort?

(9:09 PM) Thusness:      yes

(9:10 PM) Thusness:      anyway u will not understand

(9:10 PM) Thusness:      don't go round talking and offending other religions.

(9:10 PM) Thusness:      LOL

(9:10 PM) AEN: lol

(9:10 PM) AEN: ok

(9:11 PM) Thusness:      u just have to know that right understanding is important to have effortless experience of non-duality and non-locality of our nature.

(9:11 PM) AEN: icic..

(9:12 PM) Thusness:      Then after certain point of conceptual understanding, there is no point going further.

(9:12 PM) Thusness:      Conceptual understanding must be replaced with direct experience.

(9:12 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:13 PM) Thusness:      Also understand what you have gone through.

(9:13 PM) Thusness:      Know when and why conceptual understanding is important and needed

(9:13 PM) Thusness:      also know when these understandings will serve as a disservice

(9:14 PM) Thusness:      and when they should be discarded.

(9:14 PM) AEN: icic..

(9:14 PM) Thusness:      At the correct time give the correct advice. :)

(9:14 PM) Thusness:      It is not a one medicine for all sort of advice.

(9:14 PM) Thusness:      ppl.

(9:15 PM) AEN: oic..

 

(10:27 PM) AEN:              posted an explanation of wu wei

(10:27 PM) AEN:              dunnu ok anot

(10:27 PM) AEN:              still will be posting more later

(10:50 PM) Thusness:    Ok

(10:50 PM) AEN:              u read?

(10:57 PM) Thusness:    Where?

 

(12:11 AM) Thusness:    the no movement from event1 to event2 is the circles drawn in the book 'Non-duality' by David Loy

(12:12 AM) AEN:             icic.. yea

(12:13 AM) Thusness:    Except that the essence of non-locality of arising is due to our emptiness nature is not clearly understood.

(12:13 AM) AEN:             oic y isnt it understood

(12:15 AM) AEN:             but the event 1 and event 2 is not a wrong understanding rite

(12:18 AM) Thusness:    Yes

(12:19 AM) Thusness:    There is no action or movement is not true.

(12:20 AM) AEN:             huh

(12:20 AM) AEN:             oic

(12:20 AM) AEN:             why not true

(12:20 AM) Thusness:    it is not right to say that

(12:20 AM) AEN:             icic

(12:20 AM) Thusness:    There is action, intention

(12:21 AM) AEN:             oic

(12:21 AM) Thusness:    There is no doer of action

(12:21 AM) Thusness:    Don't confuse anything about spontaneous arising

(12:21 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:22 AM) Thusness:    Check an article by Charlie Singer

(12:22 AM) Thusness:    Well written

(12:23 AM) Thusness:    But can go further

(12:23 AM) AEN:             who is Charlie Singer

(12:24 AM) AEN:             this? http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/singer.htm

(12:24 AM) Thusness:    on the aspect of appearances and awareness and DO.

(12:24 AM) AEN:             oic where u found from

(12:24 AM) Thusness:    There should be deeper insight

(12:24 AM) AEN:             u mean he has deep insight?

(12:24 AM) Thusness:    From internet

(12:25 AM) Thusness:    Yes

(12:25 AM) Thusness:    But can be better

(12:25 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:25 AM) AEN:             u mean this article? http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/singer.htm

(12:26 AM) Thusness:    Yes

(12:26 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:26 AM) AEN:             wahh

(12:26 AM) AEN:             the article was written on the day i was borned

(12:26 AM) AEN:             lol

(12:26 AM) AEN:             16 march 1990

(12:26 AM) AEN:             haha

(12:26 AM) Thusness:    Lol

(12:29 AM) Thusness:    Whatever I told u just bear in mind and authenticate urself

(12:29 AM) AEN:             icic.. ok

(12:29 AM) Thusness:    Don't write as if I m enlightened and cannot be wrong.

(12:29 AM) AEN:             icic.. haha ok

(12:30 AM) Thusness:    What I tell u is there are such experiences

(12:30 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:32 AM) Thusness:    no need to overemphasize.  Just understand what is awareness that is all.

(12:32 AM) Thusness:    I go sleep.

(12:32 AM) Thusness:    Nite

(12:33 AM) AEN:             icic.. ok nite

 

Session Start: Sunday, August 31, 2008

 

(2:08 PM) Thusness:      wah u wrote so much about one taste. :P

(2:08 PM) Thusness:      kok ur head!

(2:10 PM) AEN: huh where

(2:10 PM) AEN: lol

(2:10 PM) AEN: i just updated my post

(2:10 PM) AEN: removed some part and added some part

(2:10 PM) Thusness:      every place. :P

(2:11 PM) Thusness:      next time must do a constant check on the url awakeningtoreality. :P

(2:11 PM) Thusness:      One Taste here and there...kok ur head

(2:11 PM) AEN: orh u mean google haha

(2:11 PM) AEN: i tot u mean sgforums

(2:11 PM) Thusness:      yeah.  Although ken wilber experience is non-dual, it is not exactly One Taste yet.

(2:11 PM) AEN: oic y

(2:11 PM) AEN: one taste include emptiness?

(2:12 PM) Thusness:      yes din i tell u?

(2:12 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:13 PM) Thusness:      The non-duality of advaita sort of understanding is different from buddhism.

(2:13 PM) Thusness:      how could one reaches the phase of One Taste without understanding the emptiness nature?

(2:14 PM) Thusness:      The One Taste realisation is of 2 parts: No object/subject split and both object/subject are empty of any inherent existence.

(2:15 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:15 PM) Thusness:      Penetrating these 2 aspects, insight arises of the One Taste.

(2:15 PM) Thusness:      Since when did i tell u about Advaita sort of understanding is non-dual of Buddhism?

(2:15 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:16 PM) Thusness:      So many times I told u it is the empty nature that Buddha came to teach us, not only the luminosity aspect.

(2:16 PM) Thusness:      The non-dual luminous nature is described all over the Vedas

(2:17 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:17 PM) Thusness:      kok ur head!

(2:18 PM) Thusness:      Anyone not talking about the 3 seals, understanding the anatta sort of non-duality is not talking about Buddhism.

(2:19 PM) Thusness:      anyone that lead to the understanding of Brahman is deluded in Buddhist perspective.  The One Mind, the One Reality is the non-inherent in nature.

(2:19 PM) Thusness:      it should not be understood from a dualistic and inherent perspective.

(2:19 PM) AEN: oic but ken wilber talk about brahman meh :P

(2:20 PM) Thusness:      Yes.

(2:20 PM) AEN: oic

(2:21 PM) Thusness:      Therefore the experience is non-dual but the insight isn't.

(2:21 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:23 PM) AEN: so next time i shld show them the charlie singer article instead :P

(2:23 PM) Thusness:      Charlie still need further refinement but it is already very good.

(2:24 PM) Thusness:      There are not many good articles.

(2:24 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:24 PM) Thusness:      Many do not have the clarity of the differences

(2:25 PM) Thusness:      They are unable to discern correctly the difference.  In terms of experience and insight.

(2:25 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:25 PM) Thusness:      U have to be careful when telling ppl.

(2:25 PM) Thusness:      Fortunately u always quoted the bahiya sutta...haahah

(2:26 PM) AEN: oic.. haha

(2:26 PM) Thusness:      it is both. :)

(2:26 PM) AEN: wat u mean both

(2:26 PM) Thusness:      both non-dual in terms of experience and insight

(2:26 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:28 PM) AEN: the insight means theres insight into emptiness

(2:28 PM) AEN: ?

(2:28 PM) Thusness:      yes

(2:28 PM) Thusness:      so far the best to me is still Ajahn Amaro.  In terms of practical insight and experience.

(2:29 PM) Thusness:      Clear and precise.

(2:29 PM) AEN: oic

(2:29 PM) AEN: but u said his e book not so gd?

(2:29 PM) Thusness:      But that 'source' must be fully replaced with DO.

(2:29 PM) AEN: oic

(2:29 PM) Thusness:      yes.

(2:29 PM) Thusness:      That is the only problem.

(2:29 PM) Thusness:      But he is still not wrong.

(2:29 PM) AEN: why not wrong

(2:29 PM) Thusness:      The "I" is just a luminous clarity.

(2:30 PM) Thusness:      In his mind, there is no sense of independence but still not thorough.

(2:30 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:31 PM) Thusness:      Means he knows what Awareness is exactly.  Therefore when he said "I AM", u should not mistake him as referring to that stage 1.

(2:31 PM) Thusness:      Though to him it is the same.

(2:32 PM) Thusness:      But he is using it as if a practitioner has understood the full insight of emptiness and non-duality

(2:32 PM) Thusness:      It is not the same.

(2:32 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:32 PM) Thusness:      But to him, he is not aware of that point.

(2:32 PM) Thusness:      It is not obvious to him.

(2:32 PM) Thusness:      That is my opinion.

(2:33 PM) AEN: he is not aware of what

(2:33 PM) Thusness:      That the experience of "I AM" is different.

(2:33 PM) AEN: but u said in the ebook is still quite dualistic rite

(2:33 PM) Thusness:      yes

(2:33 PM) AEN: i tink he said something like oil and water

(2:33 PM) AEN: are separate

(2:33 PM) Thusness:      yes

(2:33 PM) Thusness:      i will talk about that later.

(2:34 PM) Thusness:      means he cannot rest in the phenomena...

(2:34 PM) Thusness:      the arising and ceasing

(2:34 PM) Thusness:      why so?

(2:34 PM) Thusness:      because of certain 'block' still.

(2:34 PM) Thusness:      that 'block' must be completely gone.

(2:34 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:35 PM) Thusness:      sames goes to Charlie Singer

(2:35 PM) Thusness:      Seems almost there but not there. :P

(2:35 PM) AEN: why not

(2:35 PM) Thusness:      Don't go everywhere say that i say hah...

(2:35 PM) AEN: oic

(2:35 PM) Thusness:      The mirror is still there. :)

(2:36 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:36 PM) Thusness:      what is appearance to him?

(2:36 PM) Thusness:      seems like awareness yet not.

(2:36 PM) Thusness:      seems like merely a reflection

(2:36 PM) Thusness:      apparition

(2:36 PM) Thusness:      of a mirror

(2:37 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:37 PM) AEN: but we can use that analogy for its emptiness?

(2:37 PM) Thusness:      yes but unfortunately in terms of experience, it is not

(2:38 PM) Thusness:      means the nature of an arising is not thoroughly experienced.

(2:38 PM) Thusness:      and he is right.

(2:38 PM) Thusness:      one needs to go through until this nature is fully and completely understood.

(2:38 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:40 PM) Thusness:      What are the 2 truths of egolessness about?

(2:40 PM) AEN: emptiness of self and phenomena?

(2:40 PM) Thusness:      yes

(2:40 PM) Thusness:      subject and object

(2:40 PM) Thusness:      if there is no background, no "ITness" to be found as 'Self/self'

(2:41 PM) Thusness:      and there is no 'ITness' to be found in object or attributes

(2:41 PM) Thusness:      'What is' is mere Appearances

(2:42 PM) Thusness:      there is no 'redness' in flower or any 'ITness' found anywhere

(2:42 PM) Thusness:      both as 'Self' and 'Object' of identification

(2:42 PM) Thusness:      So what is there?

(2:43 PM) AEN: awareness as appearances?

(2:43 PM) Thusness:      Yes.

(2:43 PM) Thusness:      There is only appearances

(2:43 PM) Thusness:      and we do not know that this Appearance is our Buddha Nature in real time.

(2:44 PM) Thusness:      There is a 'block' because the direct experience is not strong and thorough enough.

(2:44 PM) Thusness:      There will come a time when total clarity dawn, there is no more doubt.

(2:45 PM) Thusness:      Because of this 'Block', there is still traces of an independent 'I'.

(2:45 PM) Thusness:      And there is no One Taste. :)

(2:45 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:47 PM) Thusness:      Think I will write my opinion about it.

(2:47 PM) AEN: okie

(2:48 PM) Thusness:      Actually I do not like to comment on these articles because it often leads to disputes and arguments.

(2:48 PM) Thusness:      :P

(2:48 PM) AEN: no la

(2:48 PM) AEN: dun tink it will

(2:48 PM) AEN: our forum like v quiet

(2:48 PM) AEN: haha

(2:48 PM) Thusness:      ahaha...

(2:49 PM) Thusness:      it is for practice sake

(2:49 PM) Thusness:      for experience sake

(2:49 PM) Thusness:      not to create noise in ur forum

(2:49 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:51 PM) Thusness:      have u finished reading 'The Sun, My Heart'?

(2:53 PM) AEN: nope

(2:53 PM) AEN: i read slowly one leh

(2:53 PM) AEN: maybe one chapter or less a day

(2:53 PM) AEN: haha

(2:53 PM) AEN: thats why i always take a long time to finish a bk

(2:53 PM) AEN: u wan to get from me isit

(2:55 PM) Thusness:      yeah

(2:55 PM) Thusness:      how is it?

(2:55 PM) Thusness:      have u read it?

(2:57 PM) AEN: not a lot yet

(2:57 PM) AEN: i think shld be quite gd

 

(3:03 PM) AEN: namdrol also recommend clarifying the natural state for mahamudra :P "

 

Must reads are Clarifying the Natural State and Moonlight, Quintessence of Mind and Meditation. As for Buddhist magazines, I can't really say any of them are particularly bad or good-- they are for the most part lineage marketing material; and in the case of Tricycle, it is aimed at Barnes and Nobles Buddhists i.e. the authors you find at B&N are the authors you see in its pages."

(3:04 PM) Thusness:      ic

 

(3:04 PM) AEN: no no

(3:04 PM) AEN: the orange book u had

(3:05 PM) AEN: last time we discussed b4 mah

(3:05 PM) AEN: that one is another one.. is not dzogchen, is mahamudra

(3:05 PM) Thusness:      oh...yeah

(3:05 PM) Thusness:      that one is good.

(3:05 PM) AEN: ic ya

(3:05 PM) Thusness:      yeah...remembered.

(3:06 PM) AEN: theres another book, a thicker one... by dakpo tashi namgyal, i think more thorough. called Moonlight, Quintessence of Mind and Meditation

(3:06 PM) Thusness:      ic

(3:06 PM) AEN: oh btw

(3:06 PM) AEN: wat u tink about this article http://www.iol.ie/~taeger/mahamud/mahamud.html

(3:16 PM) Thusness:      not bad.

(3:16 PM) AEN: icic..

(3:17 PM) Thusness:      but u know vajrayana got recognition by certain authority is important.

(3:17 PM) Thusness:      lol

(3:17 PM) Thusness:      I do not like to comment about that.  I am only interested in practical experience.

(3:17 PM) AEN: wat u mean got recognition by certain authority is important.

(3:18 PM) Thusness:      means lineage is important lah

(3:18 PM) Thusness:      for me, i have no interest in this sort of stuff.

(3:18 PM) Thusness:      as long as the practitioner shows direct experience of our luminous and empty nature, he is a true practitioner

(3:19 PM) Thusness:      at my current stage, i am vividly clear of that Buddha's teaching is the way towards liberation.

(3:19 PM) Thusness:      There is no doubt in my experience and practice and Buddha's teaching.

(3:20 PM) Thusness:      I am not particularly concerned about authority. :)

(3:20 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:22 PM) Thusness:      where u get this url from?

(3:22 PM) AEN: dunnu leh

(3:22 PM) AEN: found somewhere then i save it in my browser

(3:22 PM) Thusness:      seach from the web?

(3:22 PM) AEN: think so