John tan commented on one of Adyashanti’s videos back in 2020, “ It is a good video but a bit long. There is also genuine distinction between All as Self which is Non-dual but substantialist and no-self that is Non-dual and non-substantialist. One does not need to take side but have to b objective and unbiased. Hence clearly discerning the differences and implications r key to understanding how the mind reifies and how confusions arise. Therefore on top of experiences which is quite difficult to differentiate clearly the two in experience (all as Self and No-Self) and authentication of pristine consciousness in real time, clearly seeing how the layers obscures is part and parcel of maturing our experiences and insights.”
Shared:
"They point to different insights, and there are different insights even for nondual, substantialist and nonsubstantialist. David loy isnt clear about this point
His original nonduality book, he seems to confuse anatta with no mind state. Not clear about anatta as realization
He is conflating all is self with no self insight
The implications are huge [different view and realization]
(Soh: Read this article on the two different types of nondual insight, one of John Tan's 'must read' articles: 4) Realization and Experience and Non-Dual Experience from Different Perspectives )
His latest book seems to be clear about anatta realization i think
I wrote back in 2011 April,
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
This is why I said most masters
are still at the phase of substantial non-dual.
As for David Loy, he is a little
unique. It could be that he has realized Anatta... but his insight is shadowed
by his attempt to link up the religions (he was doing inter-religious
comparison). Therefore he was unable to differentiate substantial non-dualism
from anatta. In his book 'Non-duality', this is clearly the case.
However it is also likely that he is still in substantial non-dual phase.
Thusness replied:
Wow...If I am not wrong, David
Loy is a qualified Zen Teacher and a Ph. D in Philosophy. For you to make
such a comment , you must be doubtless of your realization.
I am glad of your confidence and
clarity of your realization. This is the difference between having
insights (clear seeing of the nature of experiential reality) and having mere
experiences of no-mind and non-dual.
In my opinion, even though the
insight is clear, to be like what Ted has remarked in the article Where There Is No Cold or
Heat will still take some time. Practice diligently and enter deeply
into the 6 entires and exits "where there is no cold or heat".
This experience too can be as natural as breathing in our moment to moment of
experience if we embrace the right view fully. Have no doubt about it.
:-)
But not everyone that realises anatta are clear about the different phases of insights, the impact of view experience realization etc.
[12:16 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: U have to understand Alan Watts equates Taoism, Buddhism and Advaita as the same because he sees the beauty of unity.
[12:16 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Also, he sees a state of no-mind in all the teachings
[12:16 AM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Sounds like david loy
[12:16 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Yes
[12:17 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: This is not that they do not have the insights
[12:17 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: But they see the beauty
[12:18 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: However they may not differentiate insight from experience and view
[12:18 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: And may not see the importance of that...
[12:18 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: So it depends
[12:19 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: All have different conditions, how one penetrates the teaching differs.
[12:20 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: I find Alan Watts very insightful though his life doesn't reflect that...lol
[12:20 AM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[12:21 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Actually I m still looking for texts that can differentiate them clearly
[12:21 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Or books
[12:22 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: On fact Malcolm is already very unique
[12:22 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Lol
[12:22 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Kyle also
[12:24 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Dzogchen however seems to equate DO from only the afflictive point of view unlike the gelug, they put lots of emphasis on DO not from afflictive perspective.
[12:25 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: DO is the king of reasoning, it is the middle path and the essence of Buddhism.
[12:26 AM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: texts that can differentiate advaita from emptiness/D.O.?
[12:26 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Emptiness cannot b understood apart from DO.
[12:27 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Texts or books that and differentiate experience from insight and present the view in relation to anatta experience.
[12:27 AM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: oic..
[12:28 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: The same experience when experienced from substantialist view will end up subsuming.
[12:30 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: But we see buddhism many spoke of a state of no mind but using DO and Emptiness not as the presentation of the right view but as a path of disassociation towards an ultimate awareness.
[12:30 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Teacher cheb seems to b that approach too.
[12:30 AM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: yeah..
[12:30 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: In fact Theravada teaching is more anatta
[12:30 AM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: ven. hui lu seems different in that regard
[12:31 AM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: in that video he criticised other religion eternalism and said "permanence" is simply the emptiness and dependent arising of impermanence
[12:31 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: However they r anatta in no-self but view isn't strong
[12:31 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Yes ven hui Lu is quite good
[12:31 AM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: oic..
[12:32 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: What I din see in hui Lu is it remains as wisdom teaching
[12:33 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Experience wise I prefer that 王洪亮?
[12:33 AM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: "What I din see in hui Lu is it remains as wisdom teaching" what do u mean
[12:34 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Although hui Lu comment is good and clear, anatta isn't clear.
[12:35 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: The experience no mind due to anatta insight then into DO and Emptiness is important.
[12:35 AM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: "
再来,第一,令诸众生获得十四种无畏功德,即【1、不自观音以观观者,】因为观世音菩萨修耳根圆通的。不自观音就是不会拿这个音声……以观观者,第一个“观”叫做能观,“观者”就是所观。他不会拿这个音声,来变作一个能观跟所观。意思就是:观世音菩萨已经证得金刚三昧,就是心境一如的意思。不自观音就是不拿这个外在的音声,化为一个能观,一个所观,因为音声就是清净自性的缘起相,没有二相,缘起相就是真如相。所以,不自观音以观观者,观世音菩萨不会拿外面的这个音声,化作一个能观、所观。众生都是这样,听到美好的音声,心都跑掉了,一个能听,一个所听,心就跑掉了,就迷迷茫茫了。观世音菩萨知道,音声是幻灭的,幻灭就是实相的显现,缘起就是实相。【使受苦众生即得解脱,】让受苦的众生就得到解脱,【是为无畏。】"
"
大 悟之人不见法。他没有任何东西,因为法法本空,法法不相到。也不见身。为什么?四大本空,五阴本来就没有“我”。所以,什么叫做照见五蕴皆空?色即是空, 受想行识即是空。为什么讲色即是空?色即是空,空就是佛性,色就是佛性的展现。所以,真正的悟道的人,他的心性流露在一切缘起法里面,即于生灭,即得不生 不灭的无为法,也没有所谓有为跟无为,刹那即见永恒,永恒就是刹那,平等不二。 因此我们要了解:不见法,也不见身。身,地水火风所构成的,四大本来就空,五蕴——色受想行识,本来就是不可得。一切法,智者了知一切法,本来就无我。这无我里面,当下就是佛性。所以,佛法讲否定的时候,凡所有相,皆是假相。讲肯定的时候,尘尘都是真心,每一个颗粒微尘都是真心的影现,一切法全部都是真。 当他破除无明烦恼、破除执着、破除分别的时候,完全都是真心展现的,尘尘尽是真,没有一法不是真心,这个是站在肯定的角度。站在否定的角度,是凡所有相不 可得。站在本体界的角度,凡所有相,都是本体界的展现,都是清净心的影现,没有一法不是真实。"
- ven hui lu
[12:36 AM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: this is still more like nondual, not anatta?
[12:36 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: I got to read
[12:36 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: What is that Zen teacher name?
[12:36 AM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: 洪文亮?
[12:36 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Yes
[12:37 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: U see hui Lu is speaking from highest form of teaching
[12:38 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Actually very good
[12:38 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: U should pass your mom
[12:39 AM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: ok
[12:40 AM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I also like 洪文亮。 i think these two, hong wen liang and hui lu fa shi are the only chinese masters i really resonate lol
[12:41 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Yeah only two that is really clear
[12:41 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: But u cannot read it from ur understanding
[12:41 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: It is not suitable for many ppl
[12:41 AM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: What do u mean
[12:42 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: This text is very good. But not suitable for many ppl.
[12:43 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: It involves anatta insight, emptiness and DO, clarity from anatta perspective.
[12:44 AM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: oic..
[12:46 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: He should say 尘尘假相都是真心
[12:48 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: The text that I wrote for u to teacher Chen, paste it here
[12:52 AM, 5/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: 深入观行, 婆酰迦经。
了悟经旨, 直指无心。
无执能所, 忘却身心。
方知见性, 只需明相。
明相见性, 见色明心。
真心空性, 随缘显相。
迷时幻相, 悟时真心。
山河大地, 原是法身。
色声香味, 尽是妙心。
[12:52 AM, 5/19/2020] John Tan: Lol