Showing posts with label Disease of Non-Conceptuality. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Disease of Non-Conceptuality. Show all posts

Also see: The Disease of Non-Conceptuality


Nicely explained 👍


Excerpt from https://www.byomakusuma.org/InterviewWithKhenchenRigdzinDorjeOnThe%20NyingmapaView.html


Khenpo: This debate is very old. A few centuries ago, some writers said that but now it’s over. Those who did not understand the exact view of Dzogchen used to say that. But according to Ha Shang, their view is that if you want to meditate, don’t think anything. Just keep your mind free from all thoughts, just keep it quiet. That is the perfect meditation. Then we can understand the perfect nature. But Dzogchen is not like that. It is the same as Madhyamika. (NB: And it has many skillful means ).


Ratnashree: So Dzogchen is not just being aware without thoughts or remaining in thoughtless non conceptual pure awareness but you have to know the nature?


Khenpo: Yes. Yes! It is not just that.

Ratnashre: Even in India, today we have many schools who say just remaining without thoughts, choice-less awareness, just awareness ( chidghana), pure awareness by itself ( chinmatra) etc. as the correct view. Many Western people think this is the same as 

Dzogchen. Do you agree?


Khenpo: Unless you have understood the nature of mind, just remaining thoughtless or choice less awareness is not Dzogchen. Remaining in the nature of mind is Dzogchen, not just remaining in thoughtless non conceptual awareness.


(NB: The Hindu Vedantic practice as advocated by perhaps the most respected and accepted Sri Sankaracharya (788 CE - 820 CE) instructs that the only way to enlightenment is to remain in the non dual, non conceptual awareness that is the watcher/witness/ knower ( advaita nirvikalpa drasta) which is one’s true identity ( Atman) and the only reality while everything else is an illusion. ‘ Brahman satyam jagan mithya’, i.e., Brahman the non dual and non conceptual awareness is the real truth while the Samsara is an illusion. This view was not created by Sri Sankaracharya around the 8 th century but already existed clearly in the Brihadaranyak Upanishad which is dated to be anytime from 800BC to 1200BC. In the Brihadaranyak Upanishad it says very clearly ‘Eko drastadvaito bhavati’ meaning ‘it is the one non dual awareness’ (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad IV, 3. 32). Dolpopa’s( 1292 - 1361) Shentongview appears to be ditto with slight modifications of this Vedantic view as his main thesis is that thoughts are not Mahamudra, that Samsara is not Nirvana and that Samsara is an illusion which does not exist and is therefore empty. But the ultimate non dual awareness exists and is therefore not empty and can never be one with Samsara and by implication thoughts can never be Mahamudra as the Karma Kagyupa teaching says.


This view makes the whole of Buddhist Tantra which is the way of transformation impossible since Samsara, and by implication thoughts, the five aggregates, the 12 faculty gates and the sixteen constituents ( skandhadhatvayatanani) can never be transformed into the primordial wisdom or the five Buddhas. This view makes all of Buddhist Tantra irrelevant as Samsara which can never be indivisible with Nirvana because one is empty of real existence ( nisvabhava) and the other is not empty and really exists ( sat); can never be transformed into primordial wisdom and thoughts can never become Mahamudra.


This Hindu Vedantic type of thesis of Dolpopa contradicts the root Tantras like the Hevajra Root Tantra which says, ‘precisely this is known as Samsara, and precisely this is Nirvana itself. After rejecting SamsaraNirvana will not be realized elsewhere.’ The two part Hevajra Tantra 2.4.38 states ‘ami Dharmas tu nirvanammohat samsararupina,’ meaning all these Dharmas ( Samsara) are Nirvana but because of delusion they appear as Samsara. Dolpopa’s view also contradicts the teachings of the Aryas (enlightened ones) of Jambudvipa like Arya Nagarjuna who says in his Magnum Opus the Mulamadhyamaka Karika, chapter 25, Nirvana Parikshya (examination of nirvana verses 19-20) ‘there is no special distinction of Samsara from Nirvana and there is no special distinction of Nirvana from Samsara. There is not the slightest difference between Nirvana and Samsara.’ Also, ‘you do not accept a Nirvana where Samsara has been rejected.’ In the Dharmadhatu Stava, it is said that ‘total transformation is explained as dharmakaya,’ therefore the question arises, what is totally transformed in the Shentong thesis of Dolpopa. If Samsara which is unreal cannot be transformed into Nirvana that is “really existing”, there is nothing to transform but only to realize the ever separate ultimate wisdom like the Hindu Brahman.


This is exactly the view of Sri Sankaracharya. It must also be clarified that these concepts were not taken by Sri Sankaracharya from the Mahasiddhas as some misinformed Buddhists would like to believe, but already existed in the Chandogya Upanishad and Brihadaryanaka Upanishad, dated from 800BC to 1200 BC by Ranade based on linguistic and ideological development and even earlier by some. These texts mention very clearly that Dwitiyam Nasti meaning there is no second but only this Brahman/Atman. And this is the Non dual Awareness/‘Eko drastadvaito bhavati’. All else is an illusion. Sankaracharya based himself on these Upanishads most of which were older than the Buddha himself and definitely did not learn these view from Buddhist Mahasiddhas, as some Western Shentongpas try to push forth.}

Ratnashree: So remaining only in the awareness, thoughtless, choiceless without knowing the nature of mind is the Ha Shangview?


Khenpo: Yes! That is what Kamalashila refuted about the Ha Shang. Kamalshila said that remaining in such a blank, thoughtless awareness is ignorance ( moha). You have to discriminate or distinguish the nature of mind, nature of phenomena.


(NB: This is exactly what Sakya Pandita meant when he refuted what he called hinese Dzogchen and said that due to cultivating this Moha/Ignorance predominated awareness state , it can become a means to be born either as a Naga or in the Formless Realm/Arupa Dhatu, which is something that every bodhisattva tries to avoid.This is avoided in modern Zen through Koans/Kung ans/ Kong answhich is a unique form of Vipashyana/Lhag thong within the Zen school. Even the Soto school which seems to lean towards remaining quietly in a thoughtless non conceptual mind does have what the founder of Japanese Soto School, Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253), calls Genjo Koans or everyday Koans)


Ratnashree: So it is not enough to be just thoughtless, non conceptual?


Khenpo: No, being non conceptual, thoughtless is not enough. Even a small child is also concept free; Samadhi (one pointed absorption related to samatha) is also concept less, the unconscious state is also thoughtless, non conceptual, a piece of stone is also concept-less/thoughtless. That’s not the correct Dzogchen view. In Dzogchen teaching, the teacher asks the student where is the mind etc, and you should search, the same as in Madhyamika. There is no difference.


(NB: In Zen too the Master asks “show me your mind “and one has to “show” one’s mind to the Master after intensive searching and one is corrected if one is wrong in a typical Zen style)

Ratnashree: The main difference here is there must be Vipashayana. Without Lhagtong ( Vipashayanatogme (concept-less/non conceptual) is not enough?


Khenpo: Yes, that is not enough.


(NB: according to the Abhidharmic classification there are two types of avikalpa/tog me (non conceptual state), they are the anashrava avikalpa that is the non conceptual state free from the outflows or defilements and sashrava avikalpa, that is the non conceptual state withflows or defilements Many people are hopelessly confused by the word “non conceptual” assuming that just being “non-conceptual” is enough. The Abhidharmika teachings make it clear that one cannot jump from defiled conceptual knowledge directly to undefiled non conceptual knowledge but rather one has to move from defiled conceptual knowledge to undefiled conceptual knowledge and from there to undefiled non-conceptual knowledge. The metaphor used is that a larva cannot fly directly but must first transform itself into a butterfly before it can fly into the sky of undefiled non conceptual knowledge. Vajragarbha the lord of the tenth bhumi in his commentery on the Hevajra Tantra called the Satasahasrika Hevajratika 1.51 says very clearly that in the beginning we go by using concepts to conceptual emptiness and finally to the non conceptual emptiness of all the Buddhist ‘adau vikalpadheto savikalpam sunyata phalam bhavet.ante cha sarva Bauddhanam akalpata sunyata phalam. ’There are many kinds of non conceptual states and experiences and they are not the same simply because they are non conceptual experiences. We can have a non conceptual experience of a sour lemon’s taste and also of a sugar candy. Simply because they are both direct non conceptual experiences they do not become the same. In the same way the non conceptual experience of the Brahman is definitely not the same as the non conceptual experience of Emptiness nor do they produce the same results.)

Also see: The Disease of Non-Conceptuality

[10:43 PM, 6/6/2020] John Tan: There are two folds to it. Any view is ultimately empty... But freeing one from constructs and conceptualization has a different meaning to me. Like when see through self, we realized anatta. It is not the freeing, but must also involves the arising insight and wisdom.
I think I mentioned I am not into without view. The freeing from seeing through self is not a form of "not knowing", contrary it is deep wisdom that allows one to understand our nature directly.”

 

 

    Soh Wei Yu
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    John Tan and I are "against" "don't know mind". In fact usually it refers to a state of marigpa (ignorance) called the indeterminancy of alaya. (see next post)
    [14/5/18, 9:56:36 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Anyway she asked dae Kwang who let’s go
    [14/5/18, 9:57:07 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Dae Kwang said precisely, he ask her back I think she said don’t know then he say correct, even Buddha’s don’t know, this don’t know is Buddha nature
    [14/5/18, 9:57:22 AM] John Tan: Nonsense
    [14/5/18, 9:57:42 AM] Soh Wei Yu: What nonsense?
    [14/5/18, 9:58:01 AM] John Tan: Such half past six answers is not zen
    [14/5/18, 9:58:08 AM] John Tan: Degraded
    [14/5/18, 9:58:22 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oh but also he say
    [14/5/18, 9:58:29 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Heart Sutra no eyes no nose no... etc
    [14/5/18, 9:58:35 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Then he ask what is no eyes
    [14/5/18, 9:58:48 AM] Soh Wei Yu: He ask someone he doesn’t know
    [14/5/18, 9:58:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: He say wall is white
    [14/5/18, 9:59:46 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Seung sahn always emphasise don’t know
    [14/5/18, 9:59:50 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I think it’s just non conceptuality
    [14/5/18, 9:59:55 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I mean the don’t know part
    [14/5/18, 9:59:57 AM] John Tan: I know
    [14/5/18, 10:00:29 AM] John Tan: This is a disease rather than wisdom
    [14/5/18, 10:01:44 AM] John Tan: What "don't know" points to is "non-conceptual" functioning.
    [14/5/18, 10:03:30 AM] John Tan: Lack of investigation and stable insights we will not be able to distinguish stable insights of non-conceptual functioning from "conceptual releasing".
    [14/5/18, 10:04:20 AM] John Tan: Originally I wanted to tell tan jui Hong but dun want to talk too much.
    [14/5/18, 10:05:11 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [14/5/18, 10:05:35 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I think u shld tell jui.. anyway jui has realised anatta I think might be into total exertion but not sure
    [14/5/18, 10:06:15 AM] John Tan: Next time
    [14/5/18, 10:06:21 AM] John Tan: Is he Singaporean
    [14/5/18, 10:09:06 AM] John Tan: Freeing from reified constructs is a whole new world of practice. That is "don't know mind" starts from there.
    [14/5/18, 10:14:26 AM] Soh Wei Yu: U mean jui?
    [14/5/18, 10:14:31 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ya jui is singaporean, u met before
    [14/5/18, 10:14:37 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [14/5/18, 10:14:37 AM] John Tan: Yes
    [14/5/18, 10:14:40 AM] John Tan: Ic
    [14/5/18, 10:23:21 AM] John Tan: Also understanding reified constructs and experiencing reified constructs in oneself is the most crucial aspect.
    [14/5/18, 10:24:31 AM] John Tan: That is the first part of an anatta is key to understanding grasping.
    [14/5/18, 10:25:25 AM] John Tan: Only when we understand constructs and reification, can we understand grasping.
    [14/5/18, 10:27:23 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [14/5/18, 10:27:49 AM] John Tan: So understanding mental constructs r very imp
    [14/5/18, 10:28:11 AM] John Tan: That includes the energy and mind-body reactions
    [14/5/18, 10:32:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
    ‎[14/5/18, 10:46:32 AM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted
    [14/5/18, 10:46:43 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Overemphasize non conceptual I think
    [14/5/18, 10:48:17 AM] John Tan: That is lack of insight and investigation
    [14/5/18, 10:49:16 AM] John Tan: Means due to lack of working with conceptual mind, the "reasons" and the "way" isn't appropriately expressed
    [14/5/18, 10:49:33 AM] John Tan: There is the beauty of mathematics
    [14/5/18, 10:49:59 AM] John Tan: Like calculus to understand complex movement and rate of change
    [14/5/18, 10:51:03 AM] John Tan: There is glendin that can express total exertion and anatta properly.
    [14/5/18, 10:51:52 AM] John Tan: There r energies, prana, awareness teachings of functionality not due to "conceptualities"
    [14/5/18, 10:54:06 AM] John Tan: What just "don't know mind". By doing that, he has caused confusion in himself and others due to lack of investigation. The way of non-conceptual function is not to be solved by mind.
    [14/5/18, 11:13:12 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. not to be solved by the mind but by what way?
    [14/5/18, 11:15:23 AM] John Tan: By the "don't know mind" they r talking
    [14/5/18, 11:15:37 AM] John Tan: The problem is they do not know
    [14/5/18, 11:15:39 AM] John Tan: Lol

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    The Disease of Non-Conceptuality
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    The Disease of Non-Conceptuality
    The Disease of Non-Conceptuality

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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    On how "Don't Know Mind" is actually a state of ma-rigpa (or at most the coarse form of unripened rigpa), Mipham Rinpoche puts it nicely:
    quote: "In this, there is not any of the clear insight of vipaśyanā, which discerns things precisely, and so the masters call it marigpa (“non-recognition, ignorance, unknowing”). Since you cannot define it and say “This is what it’s like”, or “This is it!” such a state is called lungmaten (“undecided, indeterminate”). And since you cannot say what kind of state it is you are resting in, or what your mind is thinking, it is also called tha mal tang nyom (“an ordinary state of apathetic indifference”). In fact, you are stuck in an ordinary state within the ālaya."
    Contra rigpa (knowledge): "Although there is no dualistic separation here between an experience and an experiencer, still the mind is certain about its own true nature, and there is a sense that, “There is nothing whatsoever beyond this.” When this occurs, because you can not conceptualize it or express it in words, it is acceptable to apply such terms as: “free from all extremes”, “beyond description”, “the fundamental state of clear light” and “the pure awareness of rigpa.”
    As the wisdom of recognizing your own true nature dawns, it clears away the blinding darkness of confusion, and, just as you can see clearly the inside of your home once the sun has risen, you gain confident certainty in the true nature of your mind."
    A Lamp to Dispel Darkness
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    A Lamp to Dispel Darkness
    A Lamp to Dispel Darkness

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    And likewise, Tsoknyi Rinpoche and many other teachers pointed out that rigpa is marked by certainty. I have said likewise in my journal.
    Absolute Certainty
    "First, acknowledging it is called recognizing one's nature. Next, we must be decisive about what is recognized. This is more complicated, because who really decides? Is it conceptual mind that settles it? Or is it rigpa itself that decides? or is it your teacher who makes up your mind - "The guru said so, so it must be true"? Or will modern technology validate it for you? Could you go to the Rigpa Lab and check your heart and brain with instruments to decide if your rigpa is fine and fit, if your nonduality is in good shape?
    How do you resolve this point? It may be tough to have to immediately endorse your own experience, but we can decide upon it if we feel even 60 percent confident that it's actually rigpa. As the basis for verifying, we use our teacher's words, the words of an authentic scripture, and our own experience. When our state of experiencing rigpa really is rigpa, there is within that an automatic feeling of certainty. To arrive at that certainty you need to give some time to the process, and you also need to have passion. There is a point at which the certainty is built-in, automatic certainty. Once we get to this natural, unshakable certainty, we feel so sure that even if the Buddha himself came before us and said, "Hey, you're wrong, it's not rigpa!" we would thank him for coming, but it would not change our certainty at all. At a certain point the qualities of empty essence, cognizant nature, and unconfined capacity become so utterly obvious that we really know. At this point, we have gained the certainty that whatever occurs in our minds can be freed by itself."
    - Tsoknyi Rinpoche, Fearless Simplicity: The Dzogchen Way of Living Freely in a Complex World
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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    And likewise John Tan said in the quote above,
    "I think I mentioned I am not into without view. The freeing from seeing through self is not a form of "not knowing", contrary it is deep wisdom that allows one to understand our nature directly.”"

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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    "However due to ignorance, we have a very inherent and dual view, if we do see through the nature of presence, the mind continues to be influenced by dualistic and inherent tendencies. Many teach to overcome it through mere non conceptuality but this is highly misleading." - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../anatta-and-pure...
    Anatta and Pure Presence
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    Anatta and Pure Presence

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    [30/9/17, 10:50:32 PM] Soh Wei Yu: The he Say open mouth already wrong. Cut off thinking.. then he use the Zen stick hit the floor.. is the mind and The hit same or different? Answer is just hit. No inside outside etc.. where you come from.. where does the one return to etc. All just hit. But after the interview I hear they discussing among themselves do u understand? They all just shrug, dunnu what the Teacher talking about
    [30/9/17, 10:55:20 PM] John Tan: Zen is a non verbal expression of suchness
    [30/9/17, 10:56:00 PM] John Tan: Attending to express in the most direct and intuitive way the actualization of anatta
    [30/9/17, 10:57:05 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
    [30/9/17, 10:57:12 PM] John Tan: But the extreme of it is the insight will prevent further insights
    [30/9/17, 10:57:45 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Cos falling into non conceptual disease?
    [30/9/17, 10:58:32 PM] John Tan: And actualization is on-going...After the koan an, one has to mature oneself to embrace both side of the coins...
    [30/9/17, 10:59:12 PM] Soh Wei Yu: What are the both sides?
    [30/9/17, 10:59:21 PM] Soh Wei Yu: View and nondual experience?
    [30/9/17, 10:59:37 PM] John Tan: Yes
    [30/9/17, 10:59:52 PM] John Tan: Non-verbal direct experience is important
    [30/9/17, 11:00:05 PM] John Tan: Only the over emphasis is the issue
    [30/9/17, 11:00:17 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [30/9/17, 11:01:52 PM] John Tan: Too much emphasis on just non-verbal stuff will prevent one from further insights into our nature as the mind can't clearly see
    [30/9/17, 11:02:59 PM] John Tan: But too much analysis and thinking is a grave obstruction to energy and intuitive felt sense practice 🤣
    [30/9/17, 11:03:05 PM] John Tan: Have to balance
    [30/9/17, 11:16:37 PM] John Tan: Sat chit Ananda can b a very refined stage too
    [30/9/17, 11:16:54 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Like different stages of I amness?
    [30/9/17, 11:17:04 PM] John Tan: Yes
    [30/9/17, 11:17:16 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
    [30/9/17, 11:17:58 PM] John Tan: Just don't like to say I hv experience this and that...lol. ... Too old to go into debate anymore...
    [30/9/17, 11:18:09 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
    [30/9/17, 11:19:46 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Just now he ask the question what is the one clear thing beyond life and death even before interview.. then I sat on the question and just experienced blissful being ness. Like beingness is blissful... actually anything nondual is blissful that’s why breathing can also be incredibly blissful
    [30/9/17, 11:21:27 PM] John Tan: Yes but u R in anatta or total exertion or non-obstruction self arising phenomenon
    [30/9/17, 11:21:42 PM] John Tan: Or in silence?
    [30/9/17, 11:22:05 PM] John Tan: Or in non-dual awareness?
    [30/9/17, 11:22:14 PM] John Tan: All are non dual🤣🤣🤣
    [30/9/17, 11:22:19 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
    [30/9/17, 11:22:57 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Depends on the question I think, like before birth who am I leads to more like silent being, just mind
    [30/9/17, 11:23:22 PM] John Tan: Just I M
    [30/9/17, 11:23:46 PM] John Tan: fully into beingness
    [30/9/17, 11:25:09 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ya

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