Soh Wei Yu"I'm more of the lower capacity type -- I took 4 years after I first had faith and a modicum of conceptual discernment in the three dharma seals as explained to me by John Tan, before I could have a direct realization of anatta. Even to reach the first step took me about a year or two of talking with John Tan, before that my understanding of anatta and three dharma seals was still blurry."This is also why it is important to be patient when explaining dharma to people. Patience [also a bodhisattva's paramita] is a virtue I am still learning from John Tan If it took years for me to even conceptually understand, it may take much longer for someone stuck in substantialist phases like I AM or One Mind for many years to understand it. But don't give up because I've seen many people in the I AM and One Mind phases broke through to anatta. Who can make it or who cannot, it's hard to judge or tell. Open mindedness is a key.
Soh Wei YuYin Ling wrote a week ago:Yin LingLisette Cardenas-ParisImo it is a balanceBetweenReading/listening , contemplation and meditation.These 3 need to happen for clear insights to happen.Due to being deeply deluded, we are not able to see truth with our current perception. Hence reading the right view of how things are actually and orientate to right view will facilitate progressThe terms can be a headache unfortunatelyContemplation and meditation is crucial to integrate what have been learnt.So each part shouldn’t be ignored.Each person should learn to balance this by themselves , I personally go through periods of studying alternate with deep meditation when I don’t read much at all until whatveee I read has been integrated , this works well for me.I also have a teacher who can point the right way so the amount of reading and finding things out by myself is greatly reducedHope this helpsReply1w
Yin LingSoh Wei Yu thanks sohFrom my own xp, I also think one crucial ingredient that could make or break us modern practitioners is the strong confidence in whoever our teachers mentors or spiritual friends are and the teachingsSounds v simple but for me it was always the barrier because the way of seeing after insight is so radically different from usual that I sometimes wonder if it’s correct or not , with just a speck of doubt the mind cannot release into its nature and one is always hovering at the brink. I hover a lot lol actually so whenever I receive a message from more advanced practitioner sharing with me how to they see, how things would be etc etc that doubt will suddenly break and suddenly there will be a deepening, but I must trust the person fullyEven now I feel there’s something blocking on me that idk what lol.So if a practitioner gets to have a teacher or mentor he totally trust and is confident in, like u towards John , like me towards my teacher and John.. etc .. it helps tremendouslySo often when ppl ask me about who to learn from as teacher I ask them to explore first by themselves because if they and the teacher “no spark” the trust won’t be there and the realisation is hard also.With confidence it is also hard let alone without. Also why I think In traditions, devotion towards to guru is so emphasisedSometimes I feel it is not much use i just point even though the pointer is powerful and from insight, if the trust between 2 persons is not there, one will never see. So they need to go to someone they completely trust like they Dalai Lama or sthg haha.Sorry long unstructured blah3Yin LingYes it is the view that makes one stuck.They have the confidence in the wrong view and confidence in their teachers, which is not wrong, except this will be the biggest hurdle to overcome. 神都帮不到It’s like talking to someone with theistic view. Not much different one. Can only pray for them.Soh Wei YuOn the trust part also that is generally true and impt.. although there was on a few occassions they seem to break through even though they were very argumentative with meThen suddenly they break through after they went back contemplate and realise the truth to what i said lolBut that is not say v common
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William Lim ur Q very hard
Views is like teaching on how to “see”… one haven’t see yet, but they understand the theory.
Then they take it into investigation, contemplate the view.
Why Buddha say non dual, why Buddha say this say that.. that’s using the view to contemplate..
Then slowly or suddenly they see, they understood deeply coz their perception with a small shift showed them what the view is talking about.. That’s the insight
Perceptual shift is just a different way of looking, like U suddenly see an image in those grainy holographic illusory thing they put up for fun
When the insight happens it’s experiential already, one can see real time already.
before that it’s using thinking and contemplating .
View is like telling u how the apple taste then insight is like tasting the apple yourself
Hope I m not wrong lah
Yin Ling yes loh, that's what I'm asking... and I think you answered it quite well lah.
As you said, "Fake it till you make it".
So wondering which part is the "Fake it" (Theory or Pointing Instructions) and which part is the "Make it" (Perceptual Shifts or Insights).
Is Insight an intellectual understanding, or a shift in perception, or not really?
And do you need a shift in perception before you can get the view?
William Lim for me personally it’s like.. when my teacher tell me to investigate where the awareness is.. she guides me and point me.. and I realise it’s not separate from the sensations, and I read in the book it says the same thing, so I have the “view” of non dual now, but I haven’t truly experience
So what I do is I keep asking myself “ok now if the sound and the awareness is not separate, how should it feel?” Then I play around with it. I was quite obsessed lah lol so I go everywhere I investigate “how ahh” “why it doesn’t feel like the sound hear?”.. why is it so strong inside the head here what is this thing ahhh .. play around for a while..
then one day it’s like
Ohhh I seeee.. the whole experience of “sound hearing “ became very clear like a veil taken off. I don’t need to use effort anymore like before. It’s just there. The change is sudden for me. That is to me , an insight.
William Lim for emptiness I also play with it like that.
I got the view from all the reading.. then I experiment ..
Like.. ok so buddhism say exist but not truly there right .. ok how ahhh… investigate and investigate and slowly slowly the thing ness become less and less and the whole scenery become light floaty and like a display
That’s my personal experience lah.. our mind is super malleable. U give it a view, it will slowly manifest sthg for u lol. Very fun actually
Soh Wei Yu
Conceptual view is like you are able to explain to someone that the cow in the picture puzzle is located roughly at what location and what it should look like based on what someone else described, but you still cannot see it.
Experiential realization is like it is more obvious than obvious, clearer than day the cow is there when you look at the picture. Even if you may not yet have thought up the perfect way to express it, you just know, you see it with your own two eyes.
Soh Wei Yu
View when directly realized is experienced directly, it becomes your experience in a direct manner.
View when understood intellectually does not have a paradigm and perceptual shifting effect.
So the understanding of three dharma seals goes through three stages according to Buddha -- first you accept it by faith, then you ponder it with a modicum of discernment (intellectual analysis), then you directly realize it. The third one is stream entry, or in Mahayana the stream entry is first bhumi. I would personally add that in my view, those of greatest capacity skip straight to third (like Bahiya et al), those of medium capacity skip to second then progress into third (the smart and analytical type), while those of lower capacity starts from the first step then progress into second and then third. I'm more of the lower capacity type -- I took 4 years after I first had faith and a modicum of conceptual discernment in the three dharma seals as explained to me by John Tan, before I could have a direct realization of anatta. Even to reach the first step took me about a year or two of talking with John Tan, before that my understanding of anatta and three dharma seals was still blurry.
Cakkhu Sutta (SN 25:1)
Near Sāvatthī. “Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear… The nose… The tongue… The body… The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable.
“One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry ghosts. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.
“One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry ghosts. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.
“One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening.”
Soh Wei Yu
<--- and then people may ask, oh Buddha said as long as you accept phenomena are impermanent, you are bound for stream entry? Really meh? Don't everyone accept everything is impermanent? Everyone will die what that's obvious.
That's not what faith in impermanence means. It means you can understand at least intellectually and have faith that everything, even mind, consciousness, arises and passes according to conditions and is not a knower, a subject, an unchanging soul, and so on. Meaning the anatta understanding understood conceptually and you have faith in that.
For me, I am pretty sure I became a faith follower or dharma follower destined to stream entry in the year 2006. I still proceeded into I AM phase in 2010 but because I am a 'faith follower' and then perhaps a 'dhamma follower', I then proceeded into direct realization of anatta in 8 months from I AM.
Soh Wei Yu
Yes. Or eightfold path for Sravakayana (although also covered in Mahayana and Vajrayana）, Paramitas for Mahayana, or the path of Tantra and Self-Liberation [Dzogchen and Mahamudra] in Vajrayana, etc.
Eightfold path is summarised as sila samadhi prajna.
Conduct, samadhi / meditative composure, insight / wisdom are important.