"So does that mean as the unfoldment to deeper insights, there is less and less grasping onto Pure Presence
Stop creating any kind of identities cuz all states are seen as equal in the One Taste
And that allows the Pure Instant Presence to seep deeper into all the sense gates
"Yes and even 18 dhatus are deconstructed especially after mahayana emptiness (like heart sutra)
[12/9/23, 6:06:45 PM] John Tan: What is the difference between 5 aggregates, 18 dhatus, dzogchen basis?
[12/9/23, 6:07:32 PM] Soh Wei Yu: For dzogchen, five aggregates are afflicted. When appearances are recognised as self display (empty clarity), they are the five dhyani buddhas or five lights of wisdom
[12/9/23, 6:07:49 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Afflicted as in reified
[12/9/23, 6:08:09 PM] John Tan: I asked u these
[12/9/23, 6:09:19 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Five aggregates can be like after anatta there are just aggregates. But can still be reified as real like af or hinayana schools. Eighteen dhatus is like free from mental formation. Dzogchen basis i suppose includes twofold emptiness so eighteen dhatus or they say the five elements revert to the five lights, empty clarity
[12/9/23, 6:09:56 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Then when the process completes then rainbow body and all is experienced like rainbow light and purity .. from body to whole universe
[12/9/23, 6:10:09 PM] John Tan: So in ocean and wave, what r the five lights?
[12/9/23, 6:12:03 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Just the colors or blue, as pure vivid empty radiance, like rainbow
[12/9/23, 6:13:11 PM] John Tan: What else
[12/9/23, 6:21:00 PM] Soh Wei Yu: When not reified, blue is empty and clear but non existent appearances. Does not exist on its own side in terms of subject and object or phenomena or extremes. When reified due to ignorance, blue becomes inherent ocean and waves.. ocean producing waves, etc
[12/9/23, 6:30:38 PM] John Tan: 5 aggregates, 18 dhatus, basically are the same = the All. Just degree of deconstruction.
[12/9/23, 6:34:06 PM] John Tan: When u deconstruct wave and ocean, it is just radiance clarity of pellucidity of sound, taste, colors of the imputed notion of wave and ocean.
[12/9/23, 6:37:40 PM] John Tan: Driving. Talk later.
[3/10/23, 1:51:35 PM] Soh Wei Yu: krodha wrote in reddit: “Perception” (saṃjñā) means a cognition that apprehended characteristics, which means it is a dualistic cognition. So-called primordial mind would therefore be free of “perception.”
[3/10/23, 1:51:45 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Interesting definition of perception by kyle dixon
[3/10/23, 1:51:51 PM] Soh Wei Yu: So 18 dhatus is five aggregates freed of above
[3/10/23, 1:54:03 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Apprehended characteristics sounds like objects and its characteristics, like rose and redness belonging to rose
[3/10/23, 3:07:11 PM] Yin Ling: Perception is like sankhara? Confused with terminologies. To me primordial mind is just luminosity that is empty, nothing there at all
[3/10/23, 3:07:40 PM] Yin Ling: Characteristics have to take one step down to conceptualise
[3/10/23, 3:08:16 PM] Soh Wei Yu: …saññā); (4
[3/10/23, 3:08:22 PM] Soh Wei Yu: The third aggregate
[3/10/23, 3:08:52 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Saññā | Buddhist doctrine
perceptions of sense objects (Sanskrit: saṃjñā; Pāli: saññā); (4) mental formations (saṃskāras/sankhāras); and (5) awareness, or consciousness, of the other ...
[3/10/23, 3:12:44 PM] Yin Ling: Not sure if I understand it correctly haha
[3/10/23, 11:52:33 PM] John Tan: Depends. This is not an easy topic but in general is, both perception and cognition are tainted therefore conceptual at least to gelug.
[3/10/23, 11:53:39 PM] John Tan: But yogacara they r somehow incoherent in their system about these.
[3/10/23, 11:54:02 PM] John Tan: This is according to theradava.
[3/10/23, 11:58:55 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[3/10/23, 11:59:09 PM] John Tan: Eliminate samskaras into 18 dhatus. Sort of practice of bare attention and naked awareness.
But if one is free of conceptual elaborations, how can there be 18 dhatus?
[4/10/23, 12:08:17 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah
[4/10/23, 12:37:50 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[4/10/23, 12:38:55 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah dzogchen exhausts five aggregates into five wisdoms
"Just as the Buddhas have spoken of
"I" and "mine" for a practical purpose;
Likewise they spoke too of "aggregates",
"Elements" and "sense-fields" for a practical reasons.
Such things spoken of as the "great elements",
These are fully absorbed into consciousness;
Since they are dissolved by understanding them,
Are they not falsely imputed?"
- Nagarjuna: excerpt from his 60 Stanzas"
Excerpt:
“julian_baggini_is_there_a_real_you (http://www.ted.com/talks/julian_baggini_is_there_a_real_you)
Another thing that I noticed in your message above is where you're saying that the 5 senses produce their respective objects without a self to be found. This statement is actually stacking too much on top of the natural state as it is... if you can notice in immediate experience; the 5 senses as faculties are not present... the '5 senses' designation is merely a convention, which is useful for communication but lacks existence apart from it's conventionality... likewise objects are designations implemented merely for conventional purposes(not to be denied, but seen for what they are as merely conventions). You're already stepping toward trying to see the absence of the self in experience, but it would be helpful to see the senses and objects as empty as well. So what this means is that in your immediate experience there is no evidence of the self and there is no evidence of the senses and their respective objects. In immediate experience it is "just this" no self, no senses, no objects, just the natural state which is beyond designation. If you try to hard to "see it", this is again the self trying to "see it", it needs to be understood that it is already always the case. The senses don't apprehend objects... the objects ARE the senses, the senses ARE the objects, and they are not two... but even this is saying too much.... it's just BOOM right there, happening now. In the seeing just the seen, doesn't imply that there are "things" which are seen... it just implies that it all contracts into a zero dimensional suchness... there's no objective happening... it's full union.
Now as for the "awareness"... the awareness aspect” (continue reading from link)
Also related:
Session Start: Friday, August 22, 2008
(12:29 AM) Thusness: U must watch the second video
(12:29 AM) AEN: which one
(12:29 AM) AEN: the one that explains oneness rite
(12:30 AM) Thusness: And know the difference between Advaita non-dual and buddhism anatta
(12:30 AM) Thusness: Not only that.
(12:30 AM) AEN: u mean the second or third video
(12:31 AM) Thusness: Second and third
(12:31 AM) AEN: btw the video is advaita non dual rite
(12:31 AM) Thusness: Second I watched liao.
(12:31 AM) AEN: icic
(12:31 AM) AEN: the third one is talking about wat.. momentum?
(12:31 AM) Thusness: The cartoon Yes...
(12:31 AM) AEN: icic
(12:32 AM) Thusness: The second is much deeper.
(12:32 AM) AEN: btw is that still stage based or like stage 2?
(12:32 AM) AEN: u mean the third video?
(12:32 AM) Thusness: The url I posted u.
(12:33 AM) AEN: huh which one
(12:33 AM) AEN: wait ah
(12:33 AM) AEN: the url u posted leads to the chanting :P
(12:33 AM) AEN: the first video
(12:34 AM) AEN: u're talking about the donkey one or wat
(12:34 AM) Thusness: ???? (Yuan Yin Lao Ren)
(12:34 AM) Thusness: No
(12:35 AM) Thusness: the second explanations
(12:35 AM) Thusness: I will watch all of it.
(12:35 AM) AEN: wait
(12:35 AM) Thusness: If I got time.
(12:35 AM) AEN: the one u said is in the same series rite?
(12:36 AM) Thusness: Yes
(12:37 AM) AEN: i cant find what ???? leh :P first one chanting, second one is the oneness, third one is the donkey, fourth is chanting beads
(12:37 AM) AEN: fifth is spider
(12:38 AM) Thusness: Then u posted wrongly on the buddhism forum.
(12:38 AM) AEN: o.0
(12:38 AM) AEN: then what u clicked.. lol
(12:38 AM) AEN: u said in the same series rite?
(12:38 AM) Thusness: Too bad. He is the level of practitioner I m looking for.
(12:38 AM) Thusness: But dead liao.
(12:38 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:39 AM) AEN: wait
(12:39 AM) AEN: u mean the ???? video is the cartoon series?
(12:39 AM) AEN: i mean
(12:39 AM) AEN: not*
(12:39 AM) Thusness: No
(12:39 AM) Thusness: Not cartoon.
(12:39 AM) AEN: ooh
(12:39 AM) AEN: then i wrong liao
(12:40 AM) AEN: btw the cartoon u said stage 2 understanding but stage 5 experience... then is that pathless?
(12:41 AM) Thusness: No
(12:41 AM) Thusness: The cartoon is not about emptiness
(12:41 AM) AEN: icic
(12:42 AM) Thusness: Some explanations r still ok
(12:42 AM) AEN: but is it pathless or stage like experience
(12:43 AM) Thusness: Not pathless
(12:43 AM) AEN: icic
(12:44 AM) Thusness: That is just my view.
(12:44 AM) Thusness: U just hv to know.
(12:44 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:44 AM) AEN: btw the ???? isit a 20 minute video?
(12:45 AM) Thusness: Longer than that
(12:45 AM) Thusness: Think abt an hour.
(12:46 AM) AEN: aiya u send me wrong URL just now :P
(12:46 AM) AEN: send me back to the cartoon.. hahaha
(12:46 AM) Thusness: If u can understand what he said, u will understand the essence of 5 and 6.
(12:46 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:46 AM) AEN: he also describe stage 6?
(12:47 AM) Thusness: Not describe but direct experience.
(12:47 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:48 AM) Thusness: One that broke the stage 5 and understand 6 but no philosophical concepts
(12:48 AM) Thusness: Direct experience
(12:48 AM) AEN: oic.. u mean he didnt use emptiness as raft?
(12:49 AM) Thusness: I dunno
(12:49 AM) AEN: oic
(12:49 AM) Thusness: Got to listen more.
(12:49 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:50 AM) Thusness: he is the sort of practitioner I seek for.
(12:50 AM) Thusness: Self liberation
(12:51 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:55 AM) Thusness is now Offline
(12:58 AM) AEN: btw the cartoons are not from ???? leh :P
(1:58 AM) AEN: ???? said he go pure land: ??????????????,?????????,??????????”,??,????????,
(1:58 AM) AEN: btw he vajrayana practitioner?
(2:45 AM) AEN: ahaha last part a bit funny, someone thought he attained enlightenment then call the master, the master told him u havent attain enlightenment yet :P http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=1672155&iid=9857580
(2:50 AM) AEN: the master seems to recommend chanting and rebirth in pure land more than meditation
(3:20 AM) AEN: http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=1672155&iid=9857580 -- video 19, 14:00 minute onwards, the master talk about shen hsiu's poem on the mirror is still grasping on form, hui neng's poem on mirror without stand is grasping on formless... and he made his own poem, ?????,?????
?????, ?????
(3:22 AM) AEN: ????: ???:“??????”???????????:“?????!”?????,???????????,??“????????”??????????????:“?????,??????”?????,?????????!“?????,?????”?????,????????????,?????,????,????!???????????????????
(3:40 PM) AEN: btw a few days ago i dreamt that u sent me a online video link and tell me go watch, then 2 days later u really send me a video link.. hahaha
(3:42 PM) Thusness: from non-dual to anatta and to emptiness. You must have clarity.
(3:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(3:42 PM) AEN: i just finished watching the first video
(3:43 PM) Thusness: the second one is important
(3:43 PM) AEN: oh u finished the part 2?
(3:43 PM) AEN: the one that started with tantric practice one
(3:43 PM) Thusness: then tell me why is it so important
(3:44 PM) Thusness: then u have to refine ur understanding of non-duality from ken wilber and advaita understanding and buddhism approach.
(3:44 PM) Thusness: When u have the experience later, u will know what i meant.
(3:44 PM) Thusness: but it is not easy.
(3:44 PM) AEN: oic..
(3:45 PM) Thusness: no self from the 5 aggregates to 18 dhatus to DO to Empty Luminosity.
(3:45 PM) AEN: icic..
(3:47 PM) AEN: btw u said the 2nd video
(3:47 PM) AEN: isit the one that started about tantric practice
(3:49 PM) Thusness: 36
(3:50 PM) Thusness: yes
(3:51 PM) AEN: ya that one it started discussing about tantric practice
(3:51 PM) AEN: i haven watch yet
(3:57 PM) Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle
(3:58 PM) AEN: i later then watch..
(3:58 PM) Thusness has changed his/her status to Online
(10:58 PM) AEN: the 2nd one is impt cos it incorporates emptiness rite, it talks about non duality but also explains that all forms are empty and impermanent
(11:01 PM) Thusness: Not only that.
(11:01 PM) Thusness: Compare what he said abt stage 6.
(11:03 PM) Thusness: Anyway I wrote something about stage 6.
(11:03 PM) Thusness: For u to have a clearer understanding.
(11:04 PM) Thusness: Why it is very important to have clear understanding of emptiness
(11:05 PM) Thusness: How u should move from non-dual to buddhist anatta, DO and emptiness.
(11:06 PM) AEN: icic.. ok
(11:08 PM) Thusness: After stabilizing non-dual experience, it is very important to establish firm view on Emptiness.
(11:08 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:09 PM) Thusness: Don't be afraid of establishing firm view of emptiness and DO.
(11:10 PM) Thusness: Don't be worried of being non-conceptual.
(11:10 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:11 PM) Thusness: Non-dual experience will lead u to non-conceptuality, to naked awareness naturally.
(11:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:13 PM) Thusness: But for prajna wisdom to arise, establish firmly ur understanding of DO and emptiness.
(11:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:16 PM) Thusness: After understanding of non-dual experience from the Buddha's teachings of anatta, DO and emptiness. u will become very clear.
(11:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:17 PM) Thusness: It needs few years to understand non-dual from Buddha's teachings.
(11:18 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:18 PM) Thusness: The pre-requisite is a stabilized non-dual experience.
(11:19 PM) AEN: oic ya longchen also realised emptiness after stabilizing his non dual experience and also 2-3 years after first realising non dual rite
(11:22 PM) Thusness: you will understand why impermanence yet no movement correctly.
(11:22 PM) Thusness: Yes...
Weiyu, [5/7/2024 1:17 PM]
(11:22 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:24 PM) Thusness: But still need to incorporate non-dual experience into anatta, emptiness and DO. This will need another 2-3 yrs.
(11:24 PM) Thusness: Will write something about it.
(11:25 PM) Thusness: It is very important.
(11:25 PM) AEN: u mean it will take another 2-3 years after stabilized non-dual experience?
(11:25 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:29 PM) Thusness: after stabilizing non-dual experience for 2y, another 2-3 yrs r needed to understand emptiness aspect of our non-dual luminosity.
(11:29 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:30 PM) AEN: so longchen is only beginning to understand emptiness and still needs a few years?
(11:30 PM) Thusness: Understand as in direct experience of the DO empty nature.
(11:30 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:30 PM) Thusness: Yes and that is just the beginning
(11:30 PM) AEN: oic
(11:32 PM) Thusness: I told u there will be a period of desync and practitioner will find it easier to rest in naked awareness
(11:32 PM) Thusness: But he will miss something valuable.
(11:33 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:34 PM) Thusness: not many can escape these phases.
(11:34 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:35 PM) Thusness: The video u need to hear a few times.
(11:35 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:35 PM) Thusness: Compare it with the comments on stage 6.
(11:35 PM) AEN: ok
(11:36 PM) Thusness: Know that insight must arise what 'feeling'
(11:37 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:37 PM) Thusness: What is most important in video 2?
(11:38 PM) AEN: emptiness?
(11:39 PM) Thusness: What emptiness?
(11:39 PM) Thusness: Which phrase?
(11:42 PM) AEN: many phrases :P
(11:43 PM) Thusness: Like?
(11:46 PM) Thusness: Don't paste whatever I told in the forum.
(11:46 PM) AEN: ok
(11:46 PM) AEN: i cant remember wat phrase liao
(11:49 PM) Thusness: Within a short video, there are some very important advices that only true practitioner that has intuitive insight
(11:50 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:50 PM) Thusness: Into emptiness and non-dual insight know
(11:50 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:12 PM) Thusness: what is the url for the buddhachat regarding ur conversation with Element?
(2:13 PM) AEN: http://www.buddhachat.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9891&page=6
(2:13 PM) AEN: havent posted since.. no time
(2:13 PM) Thusness: haha...ic. :)
(2:13 PM) Thusness: don't think of longchen non-conceptuality first.
(2:14 PM) Thusness: u should focus on the deepening ur clarity of advaita non-duality to buddhist form of non-duality aka anatta
(2:14 PM) Thusness: then emptiness
(2:15 PM) Thusness: then experience this until the entire teaching of Buddha becomes so clear to u.
(2:15 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:15 PM) Thusness: longchen's phase is also the result after understanding Emptiness
(2:16 PM) Thusness: and that understanding of Emptiness is aligning with his non-dual experiences
(2:16 PM) Thusness: therefore he is into right understanding of stage 6.
(2:17 PM) Thusness: but stage 6 is the right 'view' of non-duality and it has to burn the bonds of the senses first.
(2:17 PM) Thusness: then into non-registration of impressions.
(2:17 PM) Thusness: it is not suitable for u.
(2:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:18 PM) Thusness: because his non-dual experiences have stabilized, the understanding of emptiness helps in articulating all his non-dual experiences
(2:18 PM) Thusness: that is the arising of non-dual insight
(2:19 PM) Thusness: later it will become so clear as moment to moment of experience and the subtle 'bond' of the 6 senses gradually dissolve
(2:19 PM) Thusness: into one DO experience.
(2:20 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:20 PM) Thusness: so for you, u should first understand with clarity and know the various subtle stages and clarity of the differences.
(2:21 PM) Thusness: Even after aligning non-dual experience and emptiness view, the dissolving of the bond on each sense organ differs.
(2:22 PM) Thusness: a practitioner starts to walk out of meditation and find it easier to get authenticated in activities
(2:22 PM) Thusness: in opening eyes
(2:22 PM) Thusness: he walks and feel as if as the ground reality
(2:23 PM) Thusness: but when he/she returns to sitting quietly in meditation, that non-dual experience is gone.
(2:23 PM) Thusness: or is not that obvious
(2:23 PM) Thusness: that is what i meant by the subtle bond...
(2:23 PM) AEN: why when sitting the experience is gone
(2:37 PM) Thusness: Actually it is because we become more aware of the 'center'
(2:37 PM) Thusness: that is the 'center' is still there
(2:37 PM) Thusness: that 'center' becomes more obvious when we sit.
(2:38 PM) Thusness: that tendency becomes more obvious.
(2:38 PM) AEN: ooh no wonder u said
(2:38 PM) AEN:
1. There is a mirror reflecting dust. (“I AM”)
Mirror bright is experienced but distorted. Dualistic and Inherent seeing.
2. Dust is required for the mirror to see itself.
Non-Dualistic but Inherent seeing. (Beginning of non-dual insight)
3. Dust has always been the mirror ( The mirror here is seen as a whole)
Non-Dualistic and non- inherent insight.
(2:38 PM) AEN: btw the center is just a bond?
(2:38 PM) Thusness: just but the 'bond' is still strong
(2:39 PM) Thusness: there is some points u have to take note.
(2:39 PM) Thusness: a person after stabilizing non-dual experience and understanding emptiness
(2:39 PM) Thusness: is different from one that is not.
(2:40 PM) Thusness: that is, have no fear of establishing firm view on Emptiness especially for a non-dual experiencer
(2:40 PM) Thusness: because it becomes more of a medicine for the deeply held propensity
(2:41 PM) Thusness: the understanding will dissolve into non-conceptual experience of non-dual presence.
(2:42 PM) Thusness: the reason why non-dual experience become more difficult to maintain when not in activity is because Emptiness view has not replaced the deeply held dualistic/inherent view
(2:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:43 PM) Thusness: without the right view, a non-dual practitioner will still struggle unknowingly
(2:43 PM) Thusness: and naked awareness and non-conceptuality can at this phase becomes an escape
(2:43 PM) Thusness: so it depends which level a practitioner is in.
(2:44 PM) Thusness: once the view is firmly established, it serves as an antidote, when sitting, touch, taste, sound are emptiness and operate like DO.
(2:45 PM) Thusness: means first is the 5 aggregates, then 18 Dhatus then mere DO
(2:45 PM) Thusness: all are non-dual experience but the depth differs
(2:45 PM) Thusness: i told u about the 5 aggregates are already non-dual insight and experience right?
(2:46 PM) Thusness: then the extra layer of mental formation begin to subside, it stops registering imprints
(2:46 PM) Thusness: or begin to register less
(2:46 PM) Thusness: transforming to 18 dhatus without the mental formation
(2:47 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:47 PM) Thusness: but the previous tendency is still strong
(2:48 PM) Thusness: so sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, mind still act with the tendency
(2:49 PM) Thusness: now at this stage, one can rest in naked awareness or firmly establish the view of emptiness
(2:49 PM) Thusness: it will dissolve the six senses into one DO, empty nature
(2:49 PM) Thusness: just this is that is
(2:49 PM) Thusness: no eyes, ears...
(2:49 PM) Thusness: it is anchored at the deep most level
(2:50 PM) Thusness: practitioner will know it when sitting and opening eyes and all activities is becoming non-dual
(2:50 PM) Thusness: the sense of self almost dissolve
(2:50 PM) Thusness: then experiences become non dual and non local
(2:50 PM) Thusness: that is stage 6.
(2:50 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:51 PM) AEN: what does non local feel like
(2:51 PM) Thusness: it is just a 'bond' that there is locality
(2:51 PM) Thusness: that consciousness is at some place
(2:52 PM) Thusness: it is a clear experience of non-movement and all pervadingness
(2:52 PM) Thusness: yet ceaseless manifestation
(2:52 PM) AEN: the master talked of a story of su dong po went to fo yin chan shi and said something jokingly like why sit on this chair, no good or what.. then the zen master ask him all the 4 greats and 5 skandhas are empty, now tell me where are u sitting?
(2:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:53 PM) Thusness: what is no movement?
(2:53 PM) Thusness: there is arising and ceasing but there is no movement
(2:53 PM) Thusness: this is due to empty nature of our non-dual luminosity
(2:53 PM) Thusness: there is no from point A to point B
(2:54 PM) Thusness: there is A, B
(2:54 PM) Thusness: there is only movement when there is a from A to B
(2:54 PM) Thusness: but when the center is gone, non-dual experience align with Emptiness nature, this becomes clear
(2:55 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:55 PM) Thusness: after stabilizing stage 6 is the lou jing tong (from internet: 6. Asavakkaya - Supramundane knowledge or power relating to the destruction of asavas and the recognition of the Four Noble Truths)
(2:56 PM) Thusness: each dissolving of each organ becomes a tong (siddhi)
(2:56 PM) AEN: oic why
(2:56 PM) Thusness: because it becomes non local and non dual
(2:56 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:56 PM) Thusness: the 'bond' that prevents it is gone
(2:57 PM) Thusness: the 'bond' that limits and obstructs is gone
(2:57 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:57 PM) Thusness: but 'bond' is gone is mostly not obvious
(2:57 PM) Thusness: the 'bond' is very subtle
(2:58 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:58 PM) Thusness: so fearlessly open up
(2:58 PM) Thusness: let go of everything
(2:59 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:59 PM) AEN: sometimes v hard to let go leh, haha
(3:00 PM) Thusness: that is because u have not oriented urself totally with Emptiness nature
(3:00 PM) Thusness: this is very important
(3:00 PM) Thusness: but only after non-dual experience one can realise the importance
(3:00 PM) AEN: icic..
(3:00 PM) Thusness: u watch the video of the Master Yuan Yin
(3:01 PM) AEN: ya?
(3:01 PM) Thusness: u cannot grasp the essence?
(3:01 PM) AEN: need to watch again haha
(3:01 PM) Thusness: :)
(3:03 PM) AEN: another day maybe.. studying for exams.. and my mind today not so gd, a bit depressed over certain things.. heh
(3:03 PM) Thusness: work hard
(3:03 PM) Thusness: :)
(3:04 PM) AEN: ok thanks
[12:14 AM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Means the whole appearance is an unfolding of dependent origination, has no referent besides the magical unfolding that is nowhere to be found but vividly spontaneously displayed
[12:14 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Now if I tell u in total exertion, the sound of someone opening the door is like my heart beat...
[12:17 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: A vivid sponstaneous display before division...
Now if I tell u in total exertion, the sound of someone opening the door is like my heart beat...
[2:18 AM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: in hearer hearing sound, hearer is one thing, hearing is one thing, sound is one thing.. but in total exertion, the ear, sound, sound consciousness, and all the conditions are factors are the hearing
[6:19 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: in anatta in hearing there is just sound, the ear, sound, sound consciousness are just delineations of the field of happening.. one can also see and have insight into dependent origination at the anatta level but not exactly like total exertion yet.. right after anatta i wrote my experience is more like spontaneous happening dependent on conditions but without agency or subject-object
[6:24 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: so right after anatta, its like there is no hearer, only ear, sound and sound consciousness... the sound consciousness manifests spontaneously when ear meets sound. but there can still be true existence of ear, sound, sound consciousness as truly arising momentary dharmas
[6:28 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: So in hearing, there is only sound, no hearer. This deconstructs hearer.
Ear, sound, sound consciousness is post anatta.
But now ear and sound is not deconstructed.
[6:31 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: In total exertion, it is not only ear hears, the eyes, ears...whole body hears...ear is no ear, and eyes is no eyes, body is no body and mind is no mind...all r deconstructed into that sound...
The teachings of the insentient are inconceivable.
If you listen with the ears, you won't understand.
“When I talk about listening, I don’t mean just listening with the ear. Listening here includes the totality of perception—all senses open and alive, and still much more than that. The eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind are receptive, open, not controlled. A Zen saying describes it as “hearing with one’s eyes and seeing with one’s ears.” It refers to this wholeness of perception. The wholeness of being!
Another Zen saying demands: “Hear the bell before it rings!” Ah, it doesn’t make any sense rationally, does it? But there is a moment when that bell is ringing before you know it! You may never know it! Your entire being is ringing! There’s no division in that—everything is ringing.”” - Toni Packer, The Wonder of Presence, excerpt from Finding a New Way to Listen
“In ceremony there are forms and there are sounds, there is understanding and there is believing. In liturgy there is only intimacy. Haven't you heard the ancient master's teaching: Seeing forms with the whole body-and-mind, hearing sounds with the whole body-and-mind one understands them intimately. Intimate understanding is not like ordinary understanding. Ordinary understanding is seeing with the eye and hearing with the ear; intimacy is seeing with the ear and hearing with the eye. How do you see with the ear and hear with the eye? Let go of the eye, and the whole body-and-mind are nothing but the eye; let go of the ear, and the whole universe is nothing but the ear.” - Zen Master Dogen, Shobogenzo)
[6:33 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: ic.. yeah
[6:33 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Now when u look back all the deconstructions, it is just the sound that is heard. Only sound...but it was "hearer hearing sound"
It is connectedness of everything as this hearing...
[6:34 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: So look into ur experience, sees how the parts r divided by names and designations
[6:39 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Now where does causes and conditions step in? Is there any division and can u trace any division?
[7:05 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Cause and conditions step in when the parts, conditions and relations and designation step in
[7:06 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: There is no real division, only dependently designated relations
[7:40 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: So what does it mean that causes and conditions r empty? Also what is the purpose of deconstructing?
[7:55 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The conventional causes and conditions unfindable and dependent on the whole host of factors and relations.. purpose is to deconstruct the naive notion of real entities like real ears interacting with real sound producing real effects (inherent production).. in effect all relations are experienced as total exertion and empty clarity rather than truly existent causes and effects or what malcolm said as if eye is inherent agent of inherent forms etc
[7:57 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: If u don't use any Buddhist terms, what do u think is the purpose of deconstruction?
[8:08 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: to experience fully free of artificial fragmentation and solidification and holdings
[8:11 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Quite good but not good enough. Solidification and holdings r not necessary. They r means to an end to allow the mind to understand the cause of contrivance. Feel how is post anatta like, how do u feel?
[9:07 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: non division, luminous, gapless, no distance... in the seen merely the seen is experienced as luminous and gapless. also another aspect is spontaneous.. i always talk about spontaneous happening, agentless, doerless, perceiverless.. and also dependent on conditions
[9:08 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: no agent, nondual, luminosity, spontaneous and dependent on conditions
[11:58 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: https://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2019/10/john-tan-no-reifications-of.html?m=1
by John Tan, Buddhist philosopher and practitioner.
See Awakening to Reality-blog.
”What is presence now? Everything... Taste saliva, smell, think, what is that? Snap of a finger, sing. All ordinary activity, zero effort therefore nothing attained. Yet is full accomplishment. In esoteric terms, eat God, taste God, see God, hear God...lol. That is the first thing I told Mr. Jax few years back when he first messaged me If a mirror is there, this is not possible. If clarity isn't empty, this isn't possible. Not even slightest effort is needed. Do you feel it? Grabbing of my legs as if I am grabbing presence! Do you have this experience already? When there is no mirror, then entire existence is just lights-sounds-sensations as single presence. Presence is grabbing presence. The movement to grab legs is Presence.. the sensation of grabbing legs is Presence.. For me even typing or blinking my eyes. For fear that it is misunderstood, don't talk about it. Right understanding is no presence, for every single sense of knowingness is different. Otherwise Mr. Jax will say nonsense... lol. When there is a mirror, this is not possible. Think I wrote to Longchen (Sim Pern Chong) about 10 years ago.”
“After realization… Just eat God, breathe God, smell God and see God… Lastly be fully unestablished and liberate God.”
Soh Wei Yu: "Lest readers misinterpret that John is affirming a substantialist notion of a ‘God’, it should be noted that by the phase of Anatta realization, there is simply no more reifications or conceivings of a metaphysical ‘God’ or ‘Creator’ of any kind, and John was simply using the lingo of Mr. Jax to convey the complete absence of a background substratum of Presence and the total luminosity of Presencing-as-manifestation to Mr. Jax using his ‘esoteric lingo’. Even the word ‘Presence’ is not referring to some static entity here - ‘Presencing’ is perhaps a better term, for as James M. Corrigan wrote, “...Awareness is not something other than the “presencing” (i.e. naturing) of appearances. It is not a thing. It is not part of a thing. It is not an “aspect” of a process… ...it is the process—not some aspect of it”]
[11:59 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Don't underestimate this. An insight as important as anatta post the insight.
[10:32 AM, 6/17/2020] John Tan: Focus on this part. It is very important, if u can Intuit the insight that lead to this, the rest is not important. There r many intellectual obscurations and at times the mind is being block and just can't release itself. Same insight but just can't apply it on different situation relating to different mental proliferation. The Freedom and release from such an insight is not freedom from conceptuality but a freedom from seeing distinction thereby leading to a direct authentication. Because it is such an important insight, I will write something for u maybe later. Focus on it diligently.