Showing posts with label Distance. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Distance. Show all posts
Construct of Distance and Space, Realization and Experience
Soh

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    Mr. CS

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     sSerptondomt8lif211u02ui60f31ih62ifg3itf8h73i48alt4il11gucmm 
    I have been following Angelo DiLulo for quite some time. He extensively discusses achieving an awakened state where the perception of distance and space dissolves because they are ultimately mental constructs. I wonder if this phenomenon is common in Buddhist practices and if there are individuals within this community who frequently encounter such experiences. Personally, I believe I have had fleeting glimpses of this state, although nowhere near the profound level that Angelo describes in his works.

    15 comments

  • Mr A
    • space is an unstable construct for me. stability seems real sometimes and elsewhen there is no direction nor distance nor time, just this infinite space of effortless luminosity.
    I do not identify as Buddhist but am heavily influenced by Buddhist and Gerangeloic practices


    Mr C
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    • Mr A 
     I’m at a point where I recognize that I am identifying with self and when I notice it, the self dissolves. I am experientially seeing that “I” is a concept as well as time and it does not really exist. I can see the self and time are just constructs, but when it comes to space and distance it’s hard for me to see that.


    • Mr A 
    Carter Spinks sounds like the process is unfolding fine. I often find a very subtle sticky self-thought connected to the semiconscious sense that there's something different or better I should be doing in practice -- that if I think a certain way, hold a certain mantra or allow conversely 'allow low-vibrational thoughts' then I will have an impact on the outcome -- that there is a 'right' and a 'wrong' way to live.
    To use the Buddhist Two Truths doctrine, there is relative right and wrong on relative matters. But in exploration of 'The Absolute', right and wrong are only concepts. The self is a concept. So by acknowledging again this conceptual self, I dissolve and unbind the sense that there is something different I should be doing. And then sometimes another practice spontaneously picks itself up anyway.


    • Mr A.P
    Angelo is a member of this group. There are others here who openly admit to essentially the same realization he talks about, and probably more who don't talk about it as openly.


    • Soh Wei Yu
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    In anatta, distance and space is deconstructed.
    I wrote this right after my anatta insight in 2010:
    My commentary on Bahiya Sutta
    Note: You can also see my complete journal of self-discoveries at http://www.box.net/shared/3verpiao63
    Originally posted by simpo_:
    Hi Beautiful951,
    Firstly, I will like to state that I am still learning so can only share from my own opinion. Please read with a pint of salt.
    Emptiness is not a belief but an insight that can be borne from experience. It is better to experience it for oneself as before and after the insight, it can still be 'unbelievable' for the mind. Emptiness is quite hard to experience and usually the realisation of no-self comes before emptiness.
    As mentioned, no-self will be easier to realise. I will describe the insight of no-self/egolessness generally here. When doing insight meditation one may realise that the sensory experiences (including mental formation/thinking) are arising and passing away independently of one another. That is, seeing is seeing, hearing is hearing, thinking is thinking and they are all flowing independently. With that observation, one will realise that there is no self holding all these sensory experiences together. Self that we originally assumed, is just these sensory experiences arising and passing away and the attention focusing on them.
    As for emptiness, it requires a deeper penetration into consciousness. Emptiness reveals that everything is not physical and solid at all... but are 'holographically united'. There is no way to accurately describe it as it is not the way a mind unaware to it will think. Like the first insight of no-self, emptiness is a paradigm shift... towards ever clearer seeing of the truth of Reality.
    Please understand that seeing emptiness is not end of story. At least, not for my case. I am currently working on the remaining defilements. This doesn't meant that i will need to forcefully remove them. Forceful willing will only result in suppression. Rather, the 'method' is to be aware of and be equanimous to whatever that is arising in order for them to pass away naturally. This 'aware of' is not as easy as it sounds.
    Regards
    Thanks for the sharing...
    I was reminded of Bahiya Sutta while you said 'seeing is seeing'...
    In the seen, there is only the seen,
    in the heard, there is only the heard,
    in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
    in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
    Thus you should see that
    indeed there is no thing here;
    this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
    Since, Bahiya, there is for you
    in the seen, only the seen,
    in the heard, only the heard,
    in the sensed, only the sensed,
    in the cognized, only the cognized,
    and you see that there is no thing here,
    you will therefore see that
    indeed there is no thing there.
    As you see that there is no thing there,
    you will see that
    you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
    nor in the world of that,
    nor in any place
    betwixt the two.
    This alone is the end of suffering.” (ud. 1.10)
    -----
    My own comments:
    Non-duality is very simple and obvious and direct... and yet always missed! Due to a very fundamental flaw in our ordinary dualistic framework of things... and our deep rooted belief in duality.
    In the seen, there is just the seen! It is completely non-dual... there is no 'the seen + a perceiver here seeing the seen'.... The seen is precisely the seeing! There is not two or three things: seer, seeing, and the seen. That split is entirely conceptual (though taken to be reality)... it is a conclusion due to a referencing back of a direct experience (like a sight or a sound) to a centerpoint. This centerpoint could be a vague identification and contraction to one's mind and body (and this 'center of identification within the body' could be like two inches behind your eyes or on the lower body or elsewhere), or the centerpoint could be an identification with a previous nondual recognition or authentication like the I AM or Eternal Witness experience/realization. It could even be that one has gained sufficient stability to simply rest in the state of formless Beingness throughout all experiences, but if they cling to their formless samadhi or a 'purest state of Presence', they will miss the fact that they are not just the formless pure existence but that they are/existence is also all the stuff of the universe arising moment to moment... And when one identifies oneself as this entity that is behind and separated from the seen, this prevents the direct experience of what manifestation and no-self is.
    My commentary on Bahiya Sutta
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    My commentary on Bahiya Sutta
    My commentary on Bahiya Sutta

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    But in direct experience it is simply not like that: there is nothing like subject-object duality in direct experience.... only This - seen, heard, sensed, cognized. Prior to self-referencing, this is what exists in its primordial purity.
    So, in the seen, there's just That! Scenery, trees, road, etc... but when I label these as such, instead of putting a more subjective term such as 'experiencing'.... they tend to conjure images of an objective world that is 'out there' made of multiple different objects existing in time and space separated by distances.
    But no, the Buddha says: in the seen, just the seen! There is no thing 'here' (apart from the seen).... nor something 'there' (as if the seen is an objective reality out there). From the perspective of the logical framework of things, the world is made of distance, depth, entities, objects, time, space, and so on, but if you take away the reference point of a self... there is simply Pure Consciousness of What Is (whatever manifests) without distance or fragmentation. You need at least two reference points to measure distance... but all reference points (be it of an apparent subjective self or an apparent external object) are entirely illusory and conceptual. If there is no 'self' here, and that you are equally everything... what distance is there? Without a self, there is no 'out there'...
    The seen is neither subjective nor objective.... it just IS....
    There is pure seeing, pure hearing, everything arising without an external reference other than the scenery being the seeing without seer, the sound being the hearing without hearer (and vice versa: the hearing being just the sound, the manifestation).
    But even the word 'hearing', 'seeing', 'awareness' can conjure an image of what Awareness is.... As if there is really an entity called 'hearing' or 'seeing' or 'awareness' that remains and stays constant and unchanged.
    But.... if you contemplate on "How am I experiencing the moment of being alive?", or, "How am I experiencing the moment of hearing?", or "How am I experiencing the moment of seeing?" or "How am I experiencing the moment of being aware?"
    All the bullshit concepts, constructs and images of an 'aliveness', a 'hearing', a 'seeing', an 'awareness' simply dissolves in the direct experiencing of whatever arises... just 'seeing is seeing, hearing is hearing, thinking is thinking and they are all flowing independently', with 'no self holding all these sensory experiences together'.
    If readers find my explanation a bit too hard to grasp, please read Ajahn Amaro's link because he explains it much better than me.
    Labels: Buddha, I AMness, Non Dual |
    6 Responses
    Cyclops
    Jul 18, 2012, 12:43:00 AM
    Thank you, AEN. I'm seeing this ever more clearly.
    It comes in flashes -- whoosh! No one here, no thing there, just "this"! It's thrilling and so obviously true. Yet the habit of reification still operates.
    Soh
    Jul 22, 2012, 1:46:00 AM
    Hi Cyclops, sounds like good progress.
    At this point, Thusness/PasserBy's advise in the comments section of http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/.../ajahn-amaro-on... may be helpful:
    "Indeed Buddha Bra,
    At first 'effort' to focus on experiencing on the vividness of 'sensation' in the most immediate and direct way will remain. It will be 'concentrative' for some time before it turns effortless.
    There are a few points I would like to share:
    1. Insight that 'anatta' is a seal and not a stage must arise to further progress into the 'effortless' mode. That is, anatta is the ground of all experiences and has always been so, no I. In seeing, always only seen, in hearing always only sound and in thinking, always only thoughts. No effort required and never was there an 'I'.
    2. It is better not to treat sensation as 'real' as the word 'real' in Buddhism carries a different meaning. It is rather a moment of vivid, luminous presence but nothing 'real'. It may be difficult to realise why is this important but it will become clearer in later phase of our progress.
    3. Do go further into the aspect of dependent origination and emptiness to further 'purify' the experience of anatta. Not only is there no who, there is no where and when in all manifestation."
    pil
    Jan 8, 2013, 8:13:00 PM
    Just perfect
    respire
    May 13, 2014, 5:41:00 PM
    Hi An Eternal Now!
    Could you define "seal" in:
    "Insight that 'anatta' is a seal and not a stage must arise to further progress into the 'effortless' mode"
    Very, very thankful in advance as this is the step needed now for further progress as far as "I" am concerned...
    Soh
    May 13, 2014, 5:43:00 PM
    Means it is always so, it is the nature of mind/experience to be empty of an agent, subject, I, sensor, seer, feeler, hearer - in seeing always only the seen, no seer, in hearing always just sound, no hearer.
    It is not the case that at a certain point in time you experience no-self. That dissolution of sense of self is merely a peak experience. It is another thing to realize the 'always so' case of anatta as a seal.
    Soh
    May 13, 2014, 5:44:00 PM
    "That dissolution of sense of self"
    to clarify:
    Dissolution of sense of self before realizing anatta is a temporary peak experience. After realization it becomes quite effortless and natural.
    The Buddha on Non-Duality
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    The Buddha on Non-Duality
    The Buddha on Non-Duality

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    But anatta is also not finality, and as John Tan said in https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../on-anatta...
    "
    The experience of our empty nature is a very different from that of non-dual oneness. ‘Distance’ for example is overcome in non-dual oneness by seeing through the illusory aspect of subject/object division and resulted in a one non-dual presence. It is seeing all as just ‘This’ but experiencing Emptiness breaks the boundary through its empty ungraspable and unlocatable nature.
    There is no need for a ‘where-place' or a ‘when-time' or a ‘who-I' when we penetrate deeply into this nature. When hearing sound, sound is neither ‘in here’ nor ‘out there’, it is where it is and gone! All centers and reference points dissolve with the wisdom that manifestation dependently originates and hence empty. The experience creates an "always right wherever and whenever is" sensation. A sensation of home everywhere though nowhere can be called home. Experiencing the emptiness nature of presence, a sincere practitioner becomes clear that indeed the non-dual presence is leaving a subtle mark; seeing its nature as empty, the last mark that solidifies experiences dissolves. It feels cool because presence is made more present and effortless. We then move from "vivid non-dual presence" into "though vividly and non-dually present, it is nothing real, empty!".
    "
    John Tan Hi David,
    Nice meeting you too and thanks for sharing your experiences…felt a little nostalgic after knowing your Taoist background.
    Your description of the little girl’s stare is beautiful. The stare cuts through not only one’s discursive thoughts but also pierces through the living Presence (the first level of koan of one’s original face) and right into the fundamental essence of anatta. Even from your mere description, there is still the wordless transmission of headlessness that penetrates deep into one’s bone marrow and boils the blood. The stare preserves the lineage that is beyond words. Thank You.
    For me, the initial insight of anatta was mainly what I have stated in scenario 2 -- seeing through the center that the center has always been assumed, it is extra. In reality it does not exist.
    Up until this point of anatta, I was very much a non-conceptual advocator, less words more experience. I have heard of the word “Kong 空”(Emptinesss) numerous times but never exactly know what it truly meant. The idea of Emptiness struck me probably “2 years later when I came across the chariot analogy of the Buddhist sage Nāgasena. There was an instant recognition that the analogy is precisely the insight of anatta and anatta is the real-time experiential taste of the “Emptiness” in relation to self/Self except that it is now replaced with “chariot” in the example.
    The insight was huge and I began to re-examine all my experiences from the perspective of "Emptiness". This includes mind-body dropped, the impression of hereness and nowness, internal and externality, space and time...etc. Essentially a journey of deconstruction, that is, extending the same insight of anatta from the perspective of emptiness to all phenomena, aggregates, mental constructs and even to non-conceptual sensory experiences. This led to the taste of instant liberation at spot of not only the background (self) but also the cognized, seen, heard, tasted, smelled and sensed without the need to subsume either subject into object or object into subject but liberates whatever arises at spot.
    The deconstruction process reveals not only the taste of freedom from freeing the energy that is sustaining the constructs (in fact tremendous energy is needed to maintain the mental constructs) but also a continuous formation of a perceptual knot that blinds us in a very subtle way and that relates to scenario 3 -- Seeing through the fundamental nature of the perceptual knot itself. Seeing the nature of perceptual knot involves in seeing clearly certain very persistent and habitual patterns that continues to shape our mode of knowing, analysis and experience like a magical spell. The perceptual knot is the habitual tendency to reify and Emptiness is the antidote for this reifying tendency.
    The journey of emptying also convinces me the importance of having the right view of Emptiness even though it is only an intellectual grasped initially. Non-conceptuality has its associated diseases…lol…therefore I always advocate not falling to conceptuality and yet not ignoring conceptuality. That is, strict non-conceptuality is not necessary, only that habitual pattern of reification needs be severed. Perhaps this relates to the zen wild fox koan of not falling into cause and effect and not ignoring cause and effect. A koan that Hakuin remarked as "difficult to pass through".
    Not falling, not ignoring.
    A word different, a world of difference.
    And the difference causes a wild fox for five hundred lifetimes!
    A long post and time to return to silence.
    Nice chat and happy journey David!
    June 26 at 1:33am · Edited · Unlike · 9
    On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
    On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection

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    • Yin Ling
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    Distance and space can only be tenable if you have a reference point.
    You need point A and B for distance.
    Likewise you need a form and formless to call the formless “space”.
    It’s a construct/concepts like everything else, money, books, here, now, past, future, female, male..
    Once you have the insight of emptiness of personal self, you become the whole space so there’s not really a space so to speak.
    When you have the insight of emptiness of phenomena, the lost of the essence makes everything feels like space too, so when it’s all space, it’s hard to call it “space” anymore.
    When there’s not really a space there’s no moving about from A to B.
    when you are both A and B, so you can understand why ppl say “no distance”. There’s no ref point left.
    Relatively, distance and space is tenable to relate to others.
    Ultimately, everything, everythingggg is a construct. 🙂 imo it is profound but not too hard to conceptualise, it is just how reality is, for the very beginning. 🙂

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    • Mr. NB
    Here’s my perspective, as someone who hasn’t realized anything. So, not claiming that this is congruent with others’ experience here:
    When your mind is relaxed, but you’re present, and/or you look to see if there’s a perceiver of experience, you won’t find one. You won’t find the color, shape, location, or borders and edges of a perceiver. If you can stabilize on this insight, you’ll recognize that subject/object duality collapses. That is, if there’s no perceiving subject, there can’t be any independently existing objects that are perceived.
    If there’s no “here”, there’s no “there”, either.


    • Chris Jones
    Top contributor
    Short answer, yes it’s quite a common insight taught in Mahayana Buddhism. You might find Seeing That Frees by Rob Burbea a good read, there are chapters on emptiness of time and space along with practical exercises you can do. I would focus on anatta realization though, after that emptiness of space/time becomes easier to see, as there is no longer a subject/object dualistic split (which gives the illusion of distance) and there are no objects to persist through time


    Mr. NB
    Chris Jones Off-topic, but when you were doing self-inquiry, did you have the experience that your sense of being an independent subject was progressively thinning? And did your experience of phenomena change as your inquiry progressed?
    Just curious how things played-out for you.



    • Chris Jones
      Top contributor
      Mr. NB I had experiences of being the witness / pure consciousness even before doing any formal self-inquiry, but at the time I didn’t know the significance of those experiences. These weren’t yet the full I AM realization. For a while I was going back and forth between these pure consciousness experiences, and being the “ordinary” self. They became very frequent after I started properly doing self inquiry. Eventually I came to a certainty that I was this consciousness, it became clear that the idea of being the body or inside the body was just an illusion and that all appearances arise “inside” consciousness, including the body (of course, this later got clarified further). That doubtlessness is what I would call I AM realization and it came with a great sense of relief, a very quiet mind, heightened sense of clarity in the senses for a while, etc.




      • Chris Jones
      Top contributor
      Mr. NB As for the experience of phenomena, I wouldn’t say it gradually changed over time but during these glimpses and after realization phenomena felt more vivid / “luminous” and for me it was the beginning of seeing that reality isn’t solid / made of physical matter

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    Yin Ling explained well.
    "fleeting glimpses of this state"
    Most likely you're referring to a state of no mind or PCE. This is more of a peak experience than an insight. I had those many years before any realizations. Anatta realization is what makes no mind into a natural state without entry or exit.
    An excerpt from http://actualfreedom.com.au/actualism/others/corr-pce.htm , a description of PCE:
    "
    In my first peak experience (PCE), I saw the perfection with my bodily senses, as this body. The cloud of ‘human’ superstition was momentarily lifted; no Authority, no Power, no Love and no Faith was playing a role in this perfection ... for there was no need for them. There was no lack, no want, no desires, no longing whatsoever. I saw that they only belonged inside ‘me’, as a psychological entity, and ‘my’ world-view. Nothing was wrong anywhere in this physical, earthly perfection. All what had ever been thwarting this wondrous purity, were ‘my’ ‘human’ misconceptions and prejudices. I saw instantly that I, as this body, was actually meant to live like this all the time ... like all people could. This perfection of the universe itself has never ordained that human life should be playing an exceptional role of imperfection and ignominy. There is no outside to perfection. This whole planet is perfectly situated in this infinite universe which is characteristically propelled to the best it can grow into. ‘One of my peak experiences happened on the fore-shore. All of a sudden, unpremeditated, ‘I’ and ‘my’ world-view had disappeared and an immediate intimacy became apparent. Although I had lived in this village before and had grown very fond of it and its residents, there had always been a distance between me and other people, which had to be bridged by temporary feelings of love and affection which were never satisfying for long. Now a shift in seeing had occurred, and looking at the people around me, I noticed that the distance between me and others had miraculously vanished. Not only between me and other people but equally between me and the trees, me and the houses on the boulevard, even between me and the ocean. Nowhere was there a boundary. Another dimension had taken its place, which I initially experienced as a closeness closer than my own heartbeat, yet it was certainly not love for all or oneness with everything. It was another paradigm than the one in which the opposites play their major role ... and to depict it I needed another vocabulary than words like distant and close, separation and oneness.
    Opposites can only be used when there is a stationary benchmark to judge them by. When ‘I’, the standard from which everything was measured, ceased to be, a pure appraisal of the situation could take place. I saw everybody, including me as-this-body, and everything else, in its own proper place ... and nothing was wrong in any way. ‘The atmosphere of the peak experience, which I can best describe as the peace that supports everything from underneath, is the calm that makes undeniably clear that all is well after all. All is still and at rest, but not as the result of sitting in silence or being static. An all pervading and utterly pure atmosphere makes everything at once understood. It differs from intellectual understanding even though this is not precluded from it and can be activated in a crystal clear way, if so chosen. This is seeing the world as-it-is in all its wondrous grandeur. With grandeur I mean the vastness of all diversities happening simultaneously.
    The most outstanding thing is the ordinariness of it all, normally so easily overlooked and drowned by plans, schemes and dreams usually attracting so much attention. Here is no need for ‘me’ and ‘my’ problems, ‘me’ and ‘my’ solutions. ‘I’ only make that which does not need improvement unnecessarily complicated for oneself and all concerned. Everything is simply correct, perfectly harmonized according to only what is happening; no thing, no sound, no person is out of place. To think otherwise would take time away from here as-it-is. I cannot possibly object to any of what is going on, because I have no reason to do so ... all is achieved already when ‘I’ as a separate on-looker, am no longer keeping myself apart from this actuality. ‘Many people have experienced this peace in moments of exquisitely ordinary perfection; the ‘normal’ and ordinary things – like sitting at the table, walking in the street, doing the dishes – have all of a sudden taken on a glance, a shine of immense purity that surpasses the culturally determined aesthetics and the self’s feeling of beauty. This perfection is completely immune to emotions and thoughts, the ‘normal’ arbiters used for judging the quality of one’s life. This is a pure consciousness experience, which Richard calls apperception. Apperception is when ‘I’ cease perceiving and perception happens of itself ... which the brain with its sense organs is patently capable of doing. And as for the feelings – the emotions and passions – the concept of bonding, belonging and relationship simply cannot be applied, not even with my partner, as there is nobody inside to do the relating. This perfect intimacy is everywhere at once, not generated somewhere specific and then diffused to other locations as is the case with love. Previous Companion, Richard’s Journal
    "
    Various Descriptions of PCE's
    ACTUALFREEDOM.COM.AU
    Various Descriptions of PCE's
    Various Descriptions of PCE's

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    ....
    "In the ASC I could only gape in (psychological) wordless wonder at vast, empty (psychological) space. Asleep, there was only vast empty (psychological) space – no dreams. Awake, my attention was riveted to the vast empty (psychological) space in my head. I could think and function but I was awestruck (very impressed with – hint, hint) by the vast empty space. But a vast empty psychological space is still psychological space (a self) and still creates a feeling/distance barrier.
    In the PCEs this emotion/ feeling distance barrier (the self) dissolved and affected the way I (physically) experienced time, space and objects. In the PCEs the security or confidence instilled by (physical) location in eternal time and infinite space is unmistakable. Everything exists in an absolute stillness and deep purity. Visually, the contrast of light and dark is heightened, colours are richer. Hearing is unrestricted, sounds are welcome. I could feel the nubbly fabric of the chair on my skin and I remember thinking I was in forbidden territory, that I was breaking a big taboo because everything was so easy and o.k. So those are the differences as I experienced them.
    *
    As for the kind of impression left by a PCE – yes it is enormous. When the invisible boundary drops away, everything looks bigger and closer and the world is deeply pure in all infinite directions and the unshakeable stillness of it always having been, always being, and always going to be here and now makes me immediately, wonderfully and finally (as in for all time), Home Free.
    *
    You asked me to elaborate on the ambience of ‘Home Free’ in a PCE. Well, even though it reads sequentially this is not in any order. I notice the disappearance of some invisible barrier, which makes everything seamless, no dirty distance between me and everything else. I notice that load off the nervous system we talked about which has to do with feeling pressured for time somehow, as being the weight and force of believing I am responsible, of being charged with knowing how it is supposed to happen and making it happen. But with that gone I feel so here, so relaxed and aware. Time is one big, long eternal moment of stillness. All the time in the universe is available for me to operate in.
    There is a purity penetrating everything and the very air in the room looks clearer and purer. And without me knowing what is supposed to happen, I do not know what is going to happen so in about two seconds life has turned into such a gas! All of a sudden life is physical ease in a huge, magic, endless wonderland that is, pure, still and miraculously my home. And I am off the hook. I don’t ‘have’ to do anything so my activity, or just sitting there, is playful. Whatever I do and wherever I go is or would be agreeable. I don’t have to ‘work’.
    There is a flavour of intrigue or taboo or something in there, too. But maybe that’s affect coming in at the end, or now that I look at it, maybe that’s the feeling of power and cunning ‘ I’ get by being able to stand in the way of actuality. Ooo, that’s sick. AF No 50
    I recently remembered a PCE, which was helpful because before this I could only go on how much practical sense actualism made, and take other’s word for it that this grand experience was possible. Thus I was unable to connect with ‘pure intent’ and unable to have a marker to compare various other experiences by. The distinct quality in the experience for me was not having to look into my surroundings – no piercing awareness of it was necessary, because, as I have heard described before, there was absolutely no distance between what I saw and my eyes. The experience occurred during a boring lecture, in a bland, almost empty lecture-hall, and it all made no difference because all I saw was fascinating. I have no recollection of other sensory experiences, hearing, feeling, and such though, and I do not have a distinct memory of what type of thoughts were occurring, or whether ‘I’ was there. But nevertheless, it was good enough for me. List AF No 55""


    • Soh Wei Yu
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    That being said it is more crucial to focus on contemplating to give rise to the insight of anatman.
    Session Start: Sunday, 29 May, 2011
    (7:17 PM) Thusness: anatta is often not correctly understood
    it is common that one progress from experience of non-dual to no-mind instead of direct realization into anatta
    (7:19 PM) Thusness: many focus on the experience
    and there is a lack of clarity to penetrate the differences
    so u must be clear of the various phases of insights first and not mistake one for the other
    at the same time, refine your experience
    these few days...have deeper sleep and exercise more
    balance your body energies
    Conversations with Thusness 2009-2013 on I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta:
    (9:12 PM) Thusness: no mind is an experience, it is not an insight
    (9:14 PM) Thusness: ppl that have experienced no-mind knows there is such experience and aims towards achieving it again.
    (9:14 PM) Thusness: but insight is different...it is a direct experiential realization.
    (9:14 PM) AEN: icic..
    (9:14 PM) Thusness: that all along it is so.
    (11:19 PM) Thusness: u may have no-mind as an experience and understood that there is such an experience as simple manifestation or just the radiant world
    (11:19 PM) Thusness: but still it remains as a stage
    (11:19 PM) Thusness: u have no idea that it is a wrong view
    (11:20 PM) Thusness: we do not 'see' that it is the wrong view that 'blinds'
    a mistaken view shaping our entire experience
    (11:22 PM) AEN: icic..
    (11:23 PM) AEN: dharma dan calls it the knot of perception rite
    (11:23 PM) Thusness: yes
    (11:23 PM) AEN: so no mind is a strage?
    stage
    (11:24 PM) Thusness: no-mind is the peak of non-dual, the natural state of non-dual
    (11:24 PM) AEN: oic
    (11:24 PM) Thusness: where the background is completely gone
    (11:25 PM) Thusness: very often a practitioner in an advance phase of non-dual and One Mind, will naturally knows the importance of no-mind.
    And that becomes the practice
    they know they have to be there
    (11:26 PM) Thusness: however, to come to this natural state of non-dual where the background is deemed irrelevant, it requires insight of anatta.
    (12:09 AM) Thusness: and say yes, u realized ur mistake. wrote too fast.
    Awareness is just a label...
    (12:11 AM) Thusness: some of the texts u quoted are also misleading
    (12:12 AM) Thusness: when one spoke to others in longchen forum, some is to lead one into non-dual from "I AM" coz they can't accept anatta insight but is able to penetrate non-dual.
    (12:13 AM) Thusness: when anatta insight arises, one realizes there is no background
    (12:14 AM) Thusness: when insight of emptiness arise, then all is just sharing the same taste, luminous yet empty
    (12:14 AM) AEN: icic..
    (12:15 AM) Thusness: that is, i do not see Awareness, just a luminous manifestation
    there is no sense of Self/self
    or Awareness
    (12:16 AM) Thusness: there is always only sound, forms, smell...sweetness....hardness...thoughts...
    effortlessly manifesting
    (12:16 AM) Thusness: non-dually experienced
    (12:18 AM) Thusness: in terms of actual experience, what that is written in the forum is not enough
    (12:18 AM) Thusness: the intensity of luminosity isn't there.
    (12:19 AM) Thusness: first u go through the "I AM" for a period first
    later u will understand what i mean
    (12:12 AM) Thusness: not by way of non-identification.
    (12:13 AM) Thusness: by realization -- the arising insight there the mirror does not exist
    (12:15 AM) Thusness: if at the back of one's mind, there is this belief of a self, then will experience of no-mind be intermittent or permanent?
    (12:16 AM) AEN: intermittent
    (12:17 AM) Thusness: so how is one without the realization have a permanent experience of no-mind? There is no clarity, no doubtlessness of no-self, is it possible that there is a permanent and effortless experience of all sensate experiences without self?
    Thusness: ...To be more exact, the so called 'background' consciousness is that pristine happening. There is no a 'background' and a 'pristine happening'. During the initial phase of non-dual, there is still habitual attempt to 'fix' this imaginary split that does not exist. It matures when we realized that anatta is a seal, not a stage; in hearing, always only sounds; in seeing always only colors, shapes and forms; in thinking, always only thoughts. Always and already so. -:)
    Differentiating I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Differentiating I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta
    Differentiating I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    3) No-Self in terms of what I call realization of Anatta
    But then there is b), where one realizes that not only is it the case that all forms are merely modulations of consciousness, in actual fact 'Awareness' or 'Consciousness' is truly and only Everything -- in other words, there is no 'Awareness' or 'Consciousness' besides the very luminous manifestation of the aggregates, whatever is seen, heard, sensed, touched, cognized, smelled...
    Anatta is not merely a freeing of personality sort of experience; rather, there is an insight into the complete lack of a self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation. Non-duality is thoroughly seen to be always already so: here is effortlessness in the non-dual and one realizes that in seeing there is always just scenery (no seer or even seeing besides the colors) and in hearing, always just sounds (never a hearer or even a hearing besides the sounds). A very important point here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the nature of Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. This means that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a practitioner to experience anatta but Reality has always been Anatta and what is important here is the intuitive insight into it as the nature, characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).
    To illustrate further due to the importance of this seal, I would like to borrow a quote from the Bahiya Sutta (http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/…/ajahn-amaro-on-non…)
    ‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing, there is just the heard, no hearer’…
    If a practitioner were to feel that he has gone beyond the experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’ or takes that ‘there is just mere sound’, then this experience is again distorted. For in actual case, there is and always is only sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing attained for it is always so. This is the main difference between a momentary peak experience (lasting minutes or at most an hour) of non-duality, and a permanent quantum shift of perception that makes that peak experience become a permanent mode of perception.
    This is the seal of no-self and can be realized and experienced in all moments; not just a mere concept.
    In summary, after the realization of anatta of b), and even a), non-dual no longer becomes a passing peak experience that comes and goes, as the entire paradigm of consciousness, knot of perception, mental proliferation -- the continuous activity of projecting a 'self' or 'subject/object dichotomy' is severed at a more fundamental level as the delusional framework through which one perceives the world is undermined. What I can say is that for me personally, for the past 9+ years after realizing anatta, I have not experienced the slightest sense of subject/object duality or agency at all, not even the slightest trace. That is gone for good and is not merely a peak experience here.
    Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
    Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls

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    • Mr. CS
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      Soh Wei Yu Soh Wei Yu my next question was going to be why am I able to recognize and experience no self and impersonality, but not experience the dissolution of space and distance like so many others have described.
      According the post you submitted the nondoer stage of no self precedes the stage that dissolves the subject/object perception. So thank you for answering my question.
      My next question is, does getting to the stage where space and distance is dissolved happen on its own? Does this require more self enquiry to reach that stage?


      Soh Wei Yu
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      Mr. CS The anatta realization requires specific way of practicing and contemplation.
      If you follow AtR guide and Angelo, you may do self enquiry to realize I AM first. Realizing Luminosity/Pure Presence is important.
      But if you go through a path that skips I AM, like purely vipassana, then just focus on these instructions and contemplate two stanzas of anatta and bahiya sutta until it is realised.
      Way of practicing vipassana:
      When practicing vipassana like above, go along with the two stanzas of anatta and bahiya sutta, keep them in mind and contemplate them:
      Also as I wrote recently:
      What has been important for me is contemplating on Bahiya Sutta. Focusing your contemplations on the two stanzas of anatta, on Bahiya Sutta, etc, will help you breakthrough.
      Bahiya sutta:
      https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../my-commentary-on... (this is the article I wrote right after I had my anatman realization back in 2010. Prior to that I also went through the I AM/Eternal Witness to Substantialist Nondual/One Mind phases of insight)
      Also see:
      Nice advice and expression of anatta in recent days from Yin Ling and Albert Hong.
      AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
      Nice advice and expression of anatta in recent days from Yin Ling and Albert Hong.
      Nice advice and expression of anatta in recent days from Yin Ling and Albert Hong.

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      • Soh Wei Yu
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      But if you are doing self enquiry or inclined towards that path (like myself, John Tan, etc), to realise I AM first, then it is a different way of practice at least until the I AM realization.
      “On a related topic, John Tan wrote in Dharma Overground back in 2009,
      “Hi Gary,
      It appears that there are two groups of practitioners in this forum, one adopting the gradual approach and the other, the direct path. I am quite new here so I may be wrong.
      My take is that you are adopting a gradual approach yet you are experiencing something very significant in the direct path, that is, the ‘Watcher’. As what Kenneth said, “You're onto something very big here, Gary. This practice will set you free.” But what Kenneth said would require you to be awaken to this ‘I’. It requires you to have the ‘eureka!’ sort of realization. Awaken to this ‘I’, the path of spirituality becomes clear; it is simply the unfolding of this ‘I’.
      On the other hand, what that is described by Yabaxoule is a gradual approach and therefore there is downplaying of the ‘I AM’. You have to gauge your own conditions, if you choose the direct path, you cannot downplay this ‘I’; contrary, you must fully and completely experience the whole of ‘YOU’ as ‘Existence’. Emptiness nature of our pristine nature will step in for the direct path practitioners when they come face to face to the ‘traceless’, ‘centerless’ and ‘effortless’ nature of non-dual awareness.
      Perhaps a little on where the two approaches meet will be of help to you.
      Awakening to the ‘Watcher’ will at the same time ‘open’ the ‘eye of immediacy’; that is, it is the capacity to immediately penetrate discursive thoughts and sense, feel, perceive without intermediary the perceived. It is a kind of direct knowing. You must be deeply aware of this “direct without intermediary” sort of perception -- too direct to have subject-object gap, too short to have time, too simple to have thoughts. It is the ‘eye’ that can see the whole of ‘sound’ by being ‘sound’. It is the same ‘eye’ that is required when doing vipassana, that is, being ‘bare’. Be it non-dual or vipassana, both require the opening of this 'eye of immediacy'.”
      “
      …
      In 2009, John Tan wrote:
      "Hi Teck Cheong,
      What you described is fine and it can be considered vipassana meditation too but you must be clear what is the main objective of practicing that way. Ironically, the real purpose only becomes obvious after the arising insight of anatta. What I gathered so far from your descriptions are not so much about anatta or empty nature of phenomena but are rather drawn towards Awareness practice. So it will be good to start from understanding what Awareness truly is. All the method of practices that you mentioned will lead to a quality of experience that is non-conceptual. You can have non-conceptual experience of sound, taste...etc...but more importantly in my opinion, you should start from having a direct, non-conceptual experience of Awareness (first glimpse of our luminous essence). Once you have a ‘taste’ of what Awareness is, you can then think of ‘expanding’ this bare awareness and gradually understand what does ‘heightening and expanding’ mean from the perspective of Awareness.
      Next, although you hear and see ‘non-dual, anatta and dependent origination’ all over the place in An Eternal Now’s forum (the recent Toni Packer’s books you bought are about non-dual and anatta), there is nothing wrong being ‘dualistic’ for a start. Even after direct non-conceptual experience of Awareness, our view will still continue to be dualistic; so do not have the idea that being dualistic is bad although it prevents thorough experience of liberation.
      The comment given by Dharma Dan is very insightful but of late, I realized that it is important to have a first glimpse of our luminous essence directly before proceeding into such understanding. Sometimes understanding something too early will deny oneself from actual realization as it becomes conceptual. Once the conceptual understanding is formed, even qualified masters will find it difficult to lead the practitioner to the actual ‘realization’ as a practitioner mistakes conceptual understanding for realization.
      Rgds,
      John"
      “The anatta I realized is quite unique. It is not just a realization of no-self. But it must first have an intuitive insight of Presence. Otherwise will have to reverse the phases of insights.” - John Tan, 2018


      • Soh Wei Yu
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      Mr. CS For more details and pointers you can also read:
      1) The Awakening to Reality Practice Guide by Nafis Rahman: https://app.box.com/s/zc0suu4dil01xbgirm2r0rmnzegxaitq
      2) The Awakening to Reality Guide - Web Abridged Version by the joint effort of Pablo Pintabona and Nafis Rahman: https://atr-abridgedguide.blogspot.com/.../this-is...
      ATR-Practice-Guide-v1.00.docx | Powered by Box
      APP.BOX.COM
      ATR-Practice-Guide-v1.00.docx | Powered by Box
      ATR-Practice-Guide-v1.00.docx | Powered by Box

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      • Mr. CS
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        Soh Wei Yu thank you. Just skimming through it, and seeing a lot about the necessity of realizing the I AM. I started out with that with Adyashanti’s teachings but I moved away from it because I assumed that I was not going to recognize true anatta because I assumed “I Am” was from Advaita Vedanta. But from reading the guide you posted it seems that recognizing “I Am” is a necessary step and not necessarily Advaitan.


        • Soh Wei Yu
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        Mr. CS Do read the section "Why Realize the I AM (Can I skip straight away to more “advanced stages” like anatta?)" in the AtR guide abridged.
        Many Buddhist teachers do lead to I AM realization first before subsequent or further insights, though not all.
        For those practitioners that did not go through I AM, as John Tan said in 2010, "
        (4:39:30 PM) Thusness: if you do not see the cause of 'division', can there be non-dual and anatta experience? without the experience of "I AMness", your experience of non-dual and anatta will be different.
        (4:40:37 PM) AEN: oic
        (4:40:38 PM) AEN: how different
        (4:40:58 PM) Thusness: very different in terms of intensity and realization. most will skew towards first stanza. the directness and immediacy is also different. the experience will re-surface if you practice non-dual dropping, but not by way of one-pointedness concentration" -- and they will skew towards non doership aspect https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../pellucid-no-self... and miss out the luminosity, which is crucial for the true anatta realization. Also as John Tan wrote in 2009, it is important to have “an effective way to allow practitioners to have adequate experience of the vividness, realness and presence of Awareness and the full experience of these qualities in the transience. Without which it will not be easy to realize that "the arising and passing sensations are the very awareness itself." A balance is therefore needed, otherwise practitioners may experience equanimity but skew towards dispassion and lack realization."
        For those practitioners that 'skipped' the I AM realization first, nondual Luminosity must then come at a later phase of their practice, like this guy Tsultrim Serri https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-importance-of...
        Soh Wei Yu In 2008:
        (4:15 PM) AEN: tsultrim serri:
        (4:15 PM) AEN: Initiated a file transfer
        (4:15 PM) AEN:
        (Mind has often been likened to a mirror, but the analogy goes only so far, because mirrors exist and mind doesn't, well let's say that one can touch mirrors. What existence means, particularly at these levels, would be a fruitful topic, but one that i will not cover. Also , mind doesn't really reflect phenomena, it is the phenomena themselves. This is covered further down in these 4 prajnas, but for clarity i thought i should mention that.
        (4:15 PM) AEN:
        "Thusness' or "suchness" is what one feels with the experience of emptiness. It is a solid sense of being (yes, emptiness has a solid or one could say rich feeling). The luminescence of mind can be compared the the surface of a mirror. If the mirror is dirty it doesn't have a bright surface, and if mind is filled with obscuration its awareness is dimmed. With the experience of emptiness, phenomena become more vivid. It is said in the post that this confirms one's entrance into Zen. In the vajrayana, this vividness of mind is called "osel" in Tibetan, and it is a sign that one has entered the vajrayana. In my experience, this is quite far along the path. To get to this point, one would have to experience egolessness of self, egolessness of other, nondualty, emptiness, and only then luminosity.)
        (4:16 PM) Thusness: very good.
        (4:16 PM) AEN: from another thread: "Exist is a tricky word in Buddhism. Mind does not exist in the sense of being a thing, but it does exist as well, otherwise how would we be able to see, hear etc.
        Having said that, for an individual, there is nothing "outside of awareness." Everything that happens to us happens in our awareness(it's not ours, but so what). Furthermore, we are literally everything that happens in our awareness. There is no self; we are simply the world. if we see a chair in our kitchen, that is what we are at that moment since there is no separation between phenomena and mind. Phenomena are mind and mind is phenomena. smile.gif
        Tsultrim"
        (4:22 PM) Thusness: this tsultrim's insight is stage 6.
        (4:23 PM) AEN: oic..
        (4:23 PM) Thusness: truly good.
        (4:23 PM) AEN: icic..
        (4:23 PM) Thusness: not many can truly feel the differences.
        (4:23 PM) AEN: oic..
        (4:24 PM) Thusness: it is only until a certain phase of experience then that clarity comes.
        (4:24 PM) Thusness: and often in tremendous in the stability of thoughtlessness... thought almost seldom arise and one becomes the full vividness of arising phenomena.
        (4:25 PM) Thusness: is he a dzogchen practitioner?
        (4:25 PM) AEN: oic
        (4:25 PM) AEN: i think mahamudra
        (4:25 PM) AEN: he talks about the four yoga
        (4:25 PM) Thusness: ic
        (4:25 PM) AEN: "(Yes, this agrees, in my opinion, with "nonmeditation" in the 4 yogas of mahamudra, the last and most fruitional yoga of mahamudra."
        (4:25 PM) AEN: oh
        (4:25 PM) AEN: and he linked the 4 jnanas to the 4 yogas
        (5:19 PM) Thusness: actually what he said about prajna and jhana is quite good. But u have to know that it is not the sort of jhana as in concentration.
        (5:20 PM) Thusness: it is the experience of effortlessness in non-dual luminosity.
        (5:22 PM) Thusness: There will come a time every day mundane activities, practice and enlightenment is just one substance.
        (5:24 PM) AEN: no he said jnana
        (5:24 PM) AEN: jnana is more like knowledge
        (5:24 PM) AEN: not jhana absorption
        (5:25 PM) Thusness: ic
        (5:26 PM) Thusness: There will come a time when emptiness becomes so clear and the separation is no more then without the need to recall or remind. The last veil that separates is like permanently gone. Then there is no practice because all moments of arising phenomena is just one practice.
        (5:28 PM) AEN: oic..
        (5:28 PM) AEN: thats what he means by observing emptiness and 'being' emptiness rite
        (5:28 PM) AEN: i mean the difference between it
        (5:29 PM) AEN: Initiated a file transfer
        (5:29 PM) AEN:
        In a post above, i distinguished between the two. I know you asked Matylda, but until she replies, if she does, possibly i could be of help.
        Prajna is the tool that sees emptiness. It is actually an expansion of awareness, using awareness in the context of mindfulness/awareness. Awareness gets to a point where it discovers the nature of mind which includes emptiness. At that point, awareness transforms into prajna. There are lesser stages of prajna as well, but i would have to review them.
        Prajna has been likened to the mother of all the Buddhas, because through its activity the mind that becomes the Buddha mind is born. Actually, it has always been there, and is unborn, but let's not quibble.
        (5:29 PM) AEN:
        So, prajna sees emptiness. When first seen, however, one feels emptiness as separate from what has discovered it. There is still a slight trace of dualism. We experience this dualism as a seeking for emptinesss ie there is a seeker and something sought. At the realization of jnana, this duality melts, so to speak, and emptiness exists or doesn't exist without a sense of something observing it. Also, one attains wisdom when emptiness arises, not wisdom about anything, simply being in the state of wisdom. With prajna, one observes that wisdom; with jnana, one becomes it.
        Tsultrim
        Pellucid No-Self, Non-Doership
        AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
        Pellucid No-Self, Non-Doership
        Pellucid No-Self, Non-Doership

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        • Soh Wei Yu
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        (5:35 PM) Thusness: jnana here does not refer to the type of concentration like it said. It is an effortless non-dual luminous experience due to the maturing of prajna.
        (5:35 PM) Thusness: I have often said clear until absorbed. Vividness of forms.
        (5:37 PM) Thusness: It is the outcome of the clarity of insight due to the dissolving of that tendency to divide. It is natural, not a form of attention or concentration. This should not be misunderstood.
        (5:38 PM) Thusness: He mentioned about luminosity is the last fruition stage and one must go through emptiness to realise this stage.
        (5:39 PM) Thusness: This is not exactly right. 🙂
        (5:39 PM) Thusness: Advaita Vedanta practitioner will experience the opposite. 🙂
        (5:39 PM) AEN: oic..
        (5:39 PM) AEN: but for mahamudra it is like that rite?
        (5:39 PM) AEN: theravada also?
        (5:39 PM) AEN: like dharma dan
        (5:40 PM) Thusness: yes
        (5:40 PM) Thusness: it is because of right view
        (5:40 PM) Thusness: without the right view, u will experience luminosity aspect of awareness without knowing its empty nature.
        (5:40 PM) Thusness: that is more dangerous.
        (5:41 PM) Thusness: therefore establishment of right view is most important. Seeds are planted.
        (5:42 PM) Thusness: It is better not to experience then to experience the wrong stuff and makes it more difficult to get out of the dualistic experience of Eternal Witness.
        (Comments by Soh: Regarding whether it is important to go through I AM realization or can we skip to anatta -- John Tan and I and Sim Pern Chong have had differing and evolving opinions about this over the years (I remember Sim Pern Chong saying he thinks people can skip it altogether, John also wondered if it is possible or advisable as certain AF people seem to have skipped it but experience luminosity), however after witnessing the progress of people it seems to us that those who went into anatta without the I AM realization tend to miss out the luminosity and intensity of luminosity. And then they will have to go through another phase. For those with I AM realization, the second stanza of anatta comes very easily, in fact the first aspect to become more apparent. Nowadays John and my opinion is that it is best to go through the I AM phase, then nondual and anatta..
        There was also the worry that by leading people into the I AM, they can get stuck there. (As John Tan and Sim Pern Chong was stuck there for decades)
        But I have shown that it is possible to progress rather quickly (in eight months) from I AM to anatta. So the being stuck is due to lack of right pointers and directions, not inherently an issue with I AM.
        And the way to progress quickly is to be aware of the pitfalls of the I AM as I wrote in the AtR guide, and going along the four aspects of I AM and then nondual contemplations or two stanzas of anatta. If I kept reinforcing the pitfalls of I AM with wrong view, maybe I can get stuck there. Likewise for other phases, there are other pitfalls as well. Even after anatta, John Tan has at times told me to revisit the aspect of I AM. It is possible, even important, to integrate that quality and taste.)

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      Mr. MSc
      Thank you for this much needed clarification. I can understand more of what insight is and how it differs fro a glimpse. I had wondered what a Dharma Seal was and this is helpful.

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