Was searching for something in Thusness chat logs two days ago. Thought of sharing this excerpt.
A conversation with John Tan during my I AM phase, early 2010:
(7:37 PM) Thusness: anatta is the thorough insight that the behind reality does not exist, only aggregates and that is the 'what is' of experiential reality.
(7:38 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:38 PM) Thusness: when we are unable to completely dissolve this background, we will not be able to truly understand Awareness.
because we are afraid of the transient.
(7:40 PM) Thusness: this prevents direct experience and how Presence can Presence be when we are unable to experience directly?
(7:40 PM) Thusness: The background is a form of 'subtle referencing', it is not the vivid Presence.
(7:41 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:41 PM) Thusness: so what is vivid Presence?
(7:42 PM) AEN: whatever is is vivid presence? there is no need to reference to something else
(7:42 PM) Thusness: if u cannot experience thoughts, sound..the aggregates directly, u r not experiencing presence.
(7:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:44 PM) AEN: what about the experience of the witness
(7:46 PM) AEN: john wheeler: Like anything else, the "sense of I am" is still an appearance, an experience. Realize that the "sense of I am " is not what you are. You are TO WHOM even that appears. What you are has no "I" sense at all. There is no "I" in non-conceptual awareness. It is not even looking at anything, because it is one without a second. The observer and the observed both appear in your non-conceptual reality. Do not confuse what you are with the "observer". That also is a limited thing, an appearance. You are beyond the observer also.
.... Reality, your true nature itself, has no center or reference point. It is not in the head, in the body, or anywhere else. All appearances arise in that which has no position, reference point or boundary and which is your natural condition. A subtle reference of what we are to a location still implies a specific "I" that is able to be located. But pure being or awareness is "no thing". It has no position, no time, no space, no location. All of those only apply to a thing. But your real nature is not an object, not a thing. The basis of the troubles is the separate "I" notion. If there is any subtle belief in the "I", the mind will attempt to give it some position, definition, location or concept. Why? Because it has no substance. It
(7:47 PM) AEN: It needs to wrap itself in some clothing to have any semblance of being. One solution is to try to pull away all the landing zones. That is potentially an endless undertaking. It is so easy for the "I" notion to creep back into the proceedings. That is often the blind spot. The nature of a blind spot is that you cannot see it because you are looking through it and not recognizing that fact. It is like looking through your glasses to find the glasses you assume are lost. The clear and direct solution is to examine the validity of the "I" notion itself. Do not settle for pulling away the leaves and branches, but go for the root.
(7:49 PM) Thusness: yet that is still a referencing
(7:51 PM) Thusness: to be without reference is to realize that all there is always only Appearance. When u realized that thoroughly, u r without reference, location, direct and vividly Present. 🙂
(7:51 PM) AEN: oic..
Session Start: Saturday, 17 April, 2010
(5:05 PM) AEN: while contemplating 'who is listening'... i noticed that consciousness doesnt seem like a localized witness but more like a field of knowing... and it feels impersonal and universal. feels like i am this universal consciousness and everything just emerges and subsides from this field of consciousness
(5:14 PM) AEN: the witness also seems universal
(5:25 PM) AEN: i notice the sense of self seems to dissolve just by resting in awareness.. previously theres a sense of self and locality tied to awareness.
(5:42 PM) AEN: i also notice that no matter how the mind appears to move they are still appearances of unmoving consciousness
(9:17 AM) Thusness: Yes
(9:17 AM) Thusness: now is to focus on this impersonal and universal aspect of consciousness. 🙂
(9:17 AM) Thusness: after direct experience of 'luminosity', focus on 'non-conceptual', impersonal and universal aspect and from there, understand how u r became 'conditioned'. U will refine ur view at a later phase. U will eventually realize how consciousness traps itself in views and interpretations. U must eventually walk out all these constructs and understand 'what is' directly.
(9:17 AM) Thusness: To me, the most challenging aspect is to 'see' the truth of anatta and emptiness nature of our luminous essence. We will only see clearly when the tendency to 'reify' stuff dissolves. U will then realize the 'permanent, unchanging witness' is the result of this tendency.
(3:05 PM) Thusness: Yes
(3:05 PM) Thusness: now is to focus on this impersonal and universal aspect of consciousness. 🙂
(3:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(3:25 PM) Thusness: element is not bad
(3:25 PM) Thusness: u always make this mistake of making samadhi into an insight
(3:26 PM) AEN: oic.. what u mean
(3:26 PM) Thusness: nvm
(3:27 PM) Thusness: anyway u know what is so convincing in the advaita vedanta experience?
(3:28 PM) AEN: hmm.. isit bcos as u said the directness gives rise to a sense of certainty?
(3:29 PM) Thusness: yes but with the dualistic paradigm, we cannot correctly understand such an experience
(3:29 PM) AEN: oic..
(3:29 PM) Thusness: after non-dual, oneness will be the natural progression
if our mode of understanding is still dualistic
(3:30 PM) Thusness: if however insight arises, then it is simply 5 aggregates
(3:30 PM) Thusness: u do not think of 'self', just the aggregates
u do not think of 'body', just sensations
(3:31 PM) AEN: icic..
(3:32 PM) Thusness: the sense of the center, locality will dissolve with practice with the arising insight of anatta
(3:34 PM) Thusness: anyway don't just keep arguing in a forum that does not understand or believe what u said
(3:35 PM) AEN: oic..
(3:35 PM) Thusness: practice until the insight of anatta arises
(3:35 PM) Thusness: it is very difficult to get into phase 5 of insight if u get stuck in non-dual and oneness
(3:36 PM) AEN: icic..
(3:41 PM) Thusness: currently, which phase of the 7 phases u have not directly experienced?
(3:56 PM) AEN: i dun think i experienced much of ur 7 phases yet.. lol. i mean especially regarding anattta and emptiness. and i think stage 3 i also dun think i experienced that
(3:57 PM) Thusness: yes
(3:58 PM) Thusness: is impersonality different from ur experience in the post u wrote about the certainty of being?
(4:02 PM) AEN: yeah i think so. the certainty of being has a vivid sense of luminosity but the sense of self and locality is not deconstructed?
(4:04 PM) Thusness: do not mix up non-dual and anatta
in anatta, the experience is implicitly non-dual
(4:05 PM) Thusness: but it is not treating 'Oneness' as ultimate
(4:06 PM) Thusness: therefore u must understand what is the cause that leads to such experience and progression
(4:07 PM) Thusness: locality is also not deconstructed in impersonality
(4:07 PM) AEN: oic..
(4:11 PM) AEN: what is the cause that leads to which experience? oneness or anatta
(4:12 PM) Thusness: all
(4:13 PM) Thusness: just remember now that non-dual does not imply the arising insight of anatta
(4:13 PM) Thusness: however it is a very important break-through
(4:14 PM) Thusness: anatta is like simply aggregates
(4:14 PM) AEN: oic..
(4:14 PM) Thusness: just thoughts
no awareness and thoughts
or thoughts in awareness
(4:15 PM) Thusness: or awareness as thoughts
(4:15 PM) Thusness: remember about the toni packer?
(4:15 PM) Thusness: the post about weather?
(4:16 PM) Thusness: when we say 'in' weather, is it correct?
(4:16 PM) Thusness: but conventionally we feel that is correct.
(4:16 PM) AEN: icic..
(4:16 PM) Thusness: therefore we cannot really understand
and this has profound implication on the way we experience the world
(4:17 PM) Thusness: the profound implication is very important
coz it tells us what we are
(4:17 PM) Thusness: what consciousness is like
(4:18 PM) Thusness: like being 'spell' bound
(4:18 PM) AEN: yeah
(4:20 PM) AEN: what we call 'awareness' is also just like 'weather', it cant be located but is just the stream of aggregates... therefore we cannot say 'things happen in awareness'
(4:20 PM) AEN: ?
(4:21 PM) Thusness: yes
(4:22 PM) AEN: ic..
(4:22 PM) Thusness: but because of the mind's capacity to abstract and reify, we are like living in a 'spell-like' condition
this also must be realized
(4:23 PM) Thusness: but u must directly experience aggregates
directly experiencing thoughts
(4:23 PM) Thusness: sensations
vividly and luminously present
(4:24 PM) Thusness: the non-dual aspect
(4:24 PM) AEN: oic..
(4:24 PM) Thusness: it is from this implicitly non-dual experience that u refine ur experience from right view
with the help of right view
(4:26 PM) AEN: icic..
(4:27 PM) Thusness: so if u do not have such insight of non-dual experience, then it is still not a form of 'insight'
(4:28 PM) Thusness: in non-dual tradition, it is just the non-dual luminous awareness and the rest is literally illusion
(4:29 PM) Thusness: in actual practice, the tendencies..., ignorance...etc are as important conditions that create this moment of experience
(4:30 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:22 PM) AEN: S9: Representing Awareness as being super-awareness is an incorrect way to represent what is being talked about, or experienced as Awareness. Awareness is more like the Ocean, whereas manifestation, as in each
manifested mind object, is more like each and every wave. Is the wave separate from the ocean and is the ocean separate from the wave? No not really. But the ocean can be without any manifestation of a temporary phenomenon
called wave-ing, you will never see a wave without an ocean to support it and let it burrow its existent. This, my friend, is the difference between Awareness and every little manifestation imaginable.
(10:26 PM) Thusness: Isn't this what u r experiencing now. 🙂
(10:29 PM) AEN: yea
(10:29 PM) Thusness: it is just refining this experience
i told u about first the "I AMness"
(10:30 PM) Thusness: then the 4 aspects
what are the four?
(10:31 PM) AEN: impersonality, degree of luminosity, seeing through the need to re-confirm, and effortlessness
(10:32 PM) Thusness: u r beginning to experience this aspect of impersonality
what is it like?
(10:36 PM) AEN: it feels non personal like space... and theres no sense of self or locality to the witness, its not like someone 'in here' watching outside things. everything manifests from it
(10:38 PM) Thusness: not very good yet
(10:38 PM) AEN: ic..
(10:38 PM) Thusness: but that is about where s9 is.
(10:38 PM) AEN: oic
so s9 is experiencing impersonality now?
(10:39 PM) Thusness: nope
his is still very personal
(10:40 PM) AEN: oic
(10:40 PM) Thusness: however there is no point talking about it now. 🙂
(10:40 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:41 PM) Thusness: many practitioners will cling to this idea of the Self and is reluctant to give up
(10:42 PM) Thusness: this prevents them from progressing and the attachment to this Self limits their experience to the non-conceptual formless realm
(10:43 PM) Thusness: i kept saying to u that there is no denying of the witness but just the right understanding of it. Remember that
(10:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:45 PM) Thusness: experience the 4 aspects first and refine ur experience of "I AMness"
non-dual is the next phase
(10:46 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:47 PM) Thusness: after that, u must mature the experience till insight of anatta arise.
(10:48 PM) AEN: oic..
Session Start: Monday, 19 April, 2010
(5:12 PM) AEN: john wheeler: To know any experience, there must be a knowing that "I am". That is just the basic conscious knowing of being present. That is what first appears out of deep sleep. It is not a personal "I" or any other notion. Call it impersonal knowing. Subsequently, the mind begins operating and the separate "I" notion is created in thought.
Pure awareness, or non-conceptual reality, is non-dual. Upon or within this arises self-consciousness, which is the pure sense of "I am", but not yet individualized. Then follows the "I" concept, or the notion of separate individuality. Lastly, there appear notions such as I am this or that (body, mind, personality, etc.).
From the perspective of reality, there is NO appearance to speak of, because the seeming appearance is the appearance of THAT. It is all THAT.
(5:12 PM) AEN: All phenomena appear in consciousness. That consciousness is NOT personal. It is the primordial or first experience in duality. It is the pure sense of "I am" with no other content, just knowing "I am" without words, or being self-consciously aware. But that is still an experience. You are the space in which even that comes and goes.
Session Start: Monday, 19 April, 2010
(10:51 PM) Thusness: John Wheeler recent para is not bad.
(11:08 PM) AEN: oic..
he's talking about non dual?
(11:11 PM) Thusness: not just that
(11:13 PM) Thusness: John Wheeler seems to be able to outline the different phases of "I M" i told u
(11:14 PM) Thusness: however that is only up till non-dual level
(11:15 PM) AEN: icic..
Session Start: Wednesday, 21 April, 2010
(8:02 PM) AEN: Steve Hagen:
(8:03 PM) AEN: ...All things are like this. Indeed, it's impossible for any conceived object not to be like this. Nothing stands on its own. Nothing has its own being. Each thing is inseparable from, and inter-identical with, all that it's not.
(8:03 PM) AEN: Thus perception is an objectless Awareness since, when we just see, what is truly seen involves not objects but the Whole. Nothing actually forms as an object; nothing stands apart. No matter where we look, there's just this.
(8:04 PM) AEN: Here's another example of a foolish-sounding Zen question that is actually an expression of just seeing: What is the sound of one hand clapping?
When we conceive of a hand, it's just a single, isolated hand, and we're puzzled at the question. To clap, we need two hands. But this is approaching the question in our ordinary way - that is, conceptually.
(8:05 PM) AEN: With naked perception however, we see that a hand is not a separate and distinct hand. Everything is included with it. One hand clapping is the sound of two hands clapping is the sound of ten hands clapping. it's the sound before and after two hands clap. it's also the sound before and after one hand claps.
(8:05 PM) AEN: Conceptually, we think that sound is sound and silence is silence. The two seem neatly separated and distinct - in fact, opposite of each other. But this is only how we think, how we conceptualize. This is not how Reality is perceived, before we put everything into neat, nicely labeled (but deceptive) little packages.
(8:06 PM) AEN: We think there only has to be sound for there to be sound. We overlook that there must also be silence for there to be sound. And because of sound, there is silence. Were there no sound, how could there be silence?
(8:06 PM) AEN: Before you strike a bell, a sound is already here. After you strike the bell, the sound is here. When the sound fades and dies away, the sound is still here. The sound is not just the sound but the silence, too, And the silence is the sound. This is what is actually perceived before we parse everything out into this and that, into "myself" and "what I hear."
(8:07 PM) AEN: The sound of the bell is inseparable from everything that came before and that will come after as well as from everything that appears now. This includes your eardrum, which vibrates in response to it. It includes the air, which pulses with varying waves of pressure in response to it.
(8:07 PM) AEN: It includes the stick that strikes the bell. It includes the metallurgists, past and present, and those who learned to extract metal from ore and those who fashioned the bell. And it includes that ancient furnace, that supernova obliterated long ago in which this metal formed.
(8:08 PM) AEN: Remove any of these - indeed, remove anything at all - and there can be no sound of the bell. The sound of the bell is thus not "the sound of the bell." It is the entire Universe.
(8:14 PM) AEN: .....What Nagarjuna is pointing to is that believing things are impermanent involves a contradiction. First we posit separate, persisting things (in effect, absolute objects); and then we refer to them as impermanent (that is relative). What we fail to see is that we are still holding to a view of substance. We
(8:14 PM) AEN: don't really appreciate the thoroughgoing nature of change, the thorough-going nature of selflessness. Nagarjuna makes it abudantly clear that impermanence (the relative) is total, complete, thoroughgoing, Absolute. It's not that the universe is made up of innumerable objects in flux. There's Only flux. Nothing
(8:15 PM) AEN: is (or can be) riding along in the flux, like a cork in a stream; nothing actually arises or passes away. There's only stream. ..... That forms appear to come and go cannot be denied. But to assume the existence of imaginary persisting entities and attach them to these apparent comings and goings is delusion.
(8:22 PM) Thusness: This is very good.
(8:23 PM) Thusness: many practitioners stop at the phase of non-dual, few penetrates indepth and see clearly the meaning of anatta and DO.
(8:24 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:27 PM) AEN: he also seems to talk about universe as having no time and locality, "einstein showed us that if we could somehow get ourselves up to the speed of light, time would slow down as our velocity increased, until finally at the speed of light, time would cease to elapse at all. From the standpoint of someone traveling at the speed of light, it would appear that all the space being traversed - every inch or light year of it - would pass by at once, no matter how long the journey might be.
(8:28 PM) AEN: So from the viewpoint of a photon going to Andromeda, the journey takes literally no time at all. In other words, to the photon, Adromeda is right here, since it takes no time whatsoever to get "there". And the fact that the message is there and here simultnaeously makes "there" indistinguishable from "here".
This would be equally true for any two "locations" in the universe that you could point to. In other words, the universe doesn't appear to have any intrinsic size or duration at all.
(8:35 PM) AEN: anyway just bought a book from steve hagen, 'Buddhism is not what you think'
(8:41 PM) Thusness: where u get these para from?
(8:42 PM) AEN: the book 'Buddhism is not what you think'
(8:42 PM) Thusness: icic
(8:48 PM) AEN: he also used rose to describe emptiness i think.. lol. but he talk about fragrance. - "The Song of the Jewel Mirror Awareness," a poem by the great Chinese Zen teacher Tung-shan, speaks of the very same Awareness that the Buddha pointed to. This image of a jewel mirror was used as a way to express the source from which all things issue. All the myriad things, thoughts, and feelings we experience appear like images in a mirror: vivid yet insubstantial. The ungraspable mirror is what's Real, while the seemingly isolated things that appear in it are not.
(8:48 PM) AEN: Consider for example, the simple act of smelling a rose. We see the rose, feel the rose, bring it close, breathe in through our nose. We "smell the rose," as we say, though this refers more to how we conceptualize our experience than it does to what is actually experienced. To say we smell a fragrance would be closer to the actual experience.
(8:49 PM) AEN: But where does the act of smelling a fragrance takes place? If we attend carefully, we can see that all of our usual accounts of the experience start to break down.
(8:49 PM) AEN: Is the fragrance in the rose? If it was, how could you smell it? you're here while the rose is "out there" somehwere. On the other hand, if the rose were removed, you surely wouldn't smell the fragrance. But if you were removed - or if the air in between you and the rose were removed - you also wouldn't smell it.
(8:50 PM) AEN: So is the fragrance in the rose? Is it in your nose? Is it in the air in between? Is it in the air if no one is around to smell it? If so, how could we tell?
Is the fragrance in your brain, then? And if it's in your brain, then why is the rose necessary at all?
(8:50 PM) AEN: Ultimately, the simple act of "smelling a rose" - or any other act involving a subject and object - becomes impossible to pin down and utterly insubstantial.
(8:51 PM) AEN: Gradually, however, we can begin to appreciate what the experience of smelling a rose actually entails. It's of the nature of the mirror itself - that is, that the source of all experience is Mind. As such, the act of smelling - or seeing or hearing or touching or thinking - literally has no location. This non-locality is the very essence of Mind.
(8:52 PM) Thusness: When is it written?
it is very well written.
(8:53 PM) AEN: oic.. the book is made of collection of articles between 1999 to 2003
published in 2003
(8:54 PM) Thusness: first experience non-dual essence of luminosity
(8:54 PM) Thusness: then understand that even this non-dual luminous essence is also empty
(8:55 PM) Thusness: without having direct experience of our non-dual essence, u will not be able integrate this emptiness nature as a form of direct insight.
(8:56 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:57 PM) Thusness: do not understand it like a form of knowledge
(8:57 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:00 PM) Thusness: going to get this book
(9:00 PM) AEN: joan tollifson highly recommends this book 😛 "These are all outstanding and very highly recommended books, especially Buddhism Is Not What You Think. Steve is one of the clearest and most articulate living Zen teachers I've come across. I recommend him for his subtle understanding of emptiness, impermanence, and true nonduality, and also for his intelligent approach to meditation and "practice.""
(9:01 PM) Thusness: yes
(9:01 PM) Thusness: how u come to know about this book?
it is very well written
(9:01 PM) AEN: i was at Times just now, then i saw this book
(9:02 PM) Thusness: icic
(9:14 PM) AEN: oh ya btw
(9:15 PM) AEN: i forgot... buddha bra asked a qn we haven replied him 😛 http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2008/01/ajahn-amaro-on-non-duality-and.html#comments
(9:15 PM) Thusness: ic
u reply him can liao
(9:15 PM) Thusness: busy these days. i will be away in may and june
(9:16 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:16 PM) Thusness: but i will get the book buddhism is not what u think...lol
what is the color of the book?
(9:17 PM) AEN: mine is grey and orange... website show is grey and white.
but i think it may not be in all bookstores, better check first
(9:17 PM) AEN: just now was last copy in times
(9:17 PM) Thusness: what is the url of the website?
(9:18 PM) AEN: his website? http://www.dharmafield.org/
click Books at Store
(9:21 PM) Thusness: what are the contents?
(9:22 PM) AEN: http://www.dharmafield.org/bookbinwyt.htm
(9:24 PM) AEN: alot of stuff about nonduality, anatta and emptiness
(9:25 PM) Thusness: the para u quoted is from which chapter?
(9:26 PM) AEN: the one on D.O. is from 'Just Seeing' the rest from 'Elixir of Immortality'
(9:27 PM) Thusness: it has all the seven phases of insight
(9:27 PM) AEN: oic
u mean even I AM?
(9:27 PM) Thusness: and it is linked to the One Mind
(9:27 PM) AEN: oic what u mean
(9:28 PM) Thusness: this mean that it is all the seven phases of insight
anyway don't quote what i said if u want to recommend others to read
(9:28 PM) AEN: lol ok
(9:29 PM) Thusness: means many do not know how to link One Mind to Emptiness
(9:29 PM) Thusness: the All is Mind due to its empty nature and luminous essence
(9:30 PM) Thusness: that is All is Mind but due to DO and anatta...get it?
that is the difference between Buddhism and other religions.
(9:30 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:31 PM) AEN: ya the behind chapters are alot on One Mind
(9:32 PM) Thusness: yes i was reading through the contents
(9:32 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:49 PM) Thusness: all is talking about this moment of manifestation
(9:50 PM) Thusness: yet many cling to Oneness and cannot see the DO nature.
(9:58 PM) AEN: oic..
Session Start: Friday, 23 April, 2010
(5:00 PM) Thusness: u know how to comment on richard's reply?
(5:14 PM) AEN: hmm
(5:14 PM) AEN: i think what he said is valid as karmic propensities continue to surface after some insights... but then again the way to resolve that is not by efforting but by seeing/insight?
im not sure how to comment
(5:16 PM) AEN: its not about effort to get rid of 'self' but by seeing that there is no 'self'
(5:31 PM) AEN: how wld u comment
Session Start: Friday, 23 April, 2010
(10:27 PM) Thusness: what richard asked is the essence of practice
(10:28 PM) Thusness: u have to put in more effort and thoughts
what is the difference between non-dual and anatta?
(10:29 PM) Thusness: this u must be very clear
(10:30 PM) AEN: back
(10:31 PM) AEN: non dual is just the non division of subject object... but anatta is seeing through the sense of an inherent one mind/consciousness by seeing consciousness as just manifestation and insubstantial?
(10:31 PM) Thusness: u r just memorizing words
(10:32 PM) Thusness: give me experiential insight
(10:34 PM) AEN: non dual before anatta still has some referencing back or clinging to something permanent... but anatta is just seeing consciousness as the transience, no referencing?
im not sure
(10:35 PM) Thusness: in non-dual, there are obsessed with behind reality
(10:36 PM) Thusness: in anatta, u realized that such an 'inherent ultimate reality' does not exist. U directly experience phenomena
(10:37 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:37 PM) Thusness: a practitioner cannot experience directly phenomena if in his inmost consciousness he still believe an inherent self
(10:39 PM) Thusness: there is no vivid, present, direct experience of thoughts, no vivid, present, direct experience of sound, no vivid, present and direct experience of taste
or simply just aggregates
(10:41 PM) Thusness: once a practitioner thoroughly seen through this and have direct perception of the transient, he realizes both the essence and nature of so called 'phenomena'
(10:42 PM) Thusness: the functioning of DO.
(10:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:42 PM) Thusness: it is not about the behind reality
(10:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:44 PM) Thusness: it is the pure, vivid experience of the aggregates directly as that layer called 'self' isn't there to 'blind' him
(10:44 PM) Thusness: the second important point is what is 'wu' (realization)?
(10:44 PM) Thusness: ?
(10:45 PM) Thusness: Richard is not seeing '?' (wu; realization)
(10:46 PM) Thusness: and its implication to Consciousness and Awareness
(10:46 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:46 PM) Thusness: ? (realization) is what that brings about a 360 degree change
(10:47 PM) Thusness: ur entire view, life...ur entire experiential reality
(10:47 PM) Thusness: the impact of ? (realization) is transformational
(10:47 PM) Thusness: that is why i say 'seeing' arising insight
(10:48 PM) Thusness: that is what that will result in powerful and transformational change
(10:48 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:48 PM) Thusness: that is practice
(10:48 PM) AEN: practice?
(10:48 PM) Thusness: to wu
(10:50 PM) AEN: dun really understand
(10:51 PM) Thusness: u must understand the impact of 'wu' or arising insight
otherwise nothing change
(10:51 PM) Thusness: nothing really transformational
(10:51 PM) AEN: ic.. yah
so u mean the whole purpose of practice is to give rise to insight
(10:52 PM) Thusness: we think that we must do this or that
(10:52 PM) Thusness: but we do not know it is the 'insight' that brought about the 360 degree transformation
(10:52 PM) Thusness: suffering too is to bring about such insight
(10:53 PM) Thusness: therefore it is not do nothing
it is about deeper seeing
(10:53 PM) Thusness: get it?
(10:53 PM) AEN: how does suffering bring such insight
(10:54 PM) Thusness: don't just write for the sake of writing...as if u r rushing to answer someone
go through it and clearly understand its implication
(10:54 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:55 PM) Thusness: For awareness practice, 'insight' is all that matters.
(10:55 PM) Thusness: u never c ppl writing so much, it is all talking about this deeper seeing
(10:56 PM) Thusness: any other thing?
it is not about 'chi' or practicing 'chi gong'
(10:56 PM) Thusness: or mudra or visualization...
(10:56 PM) AEN: oic.. yah
(10:57 PM) Thusness: so u must know from the perspective of awareness practice, what matters
and what is meant by non-doing
(10:57 PM) Thusness: it is the arising insight that brought about the change and that is all that matters to Awareness
(10:58 PM) Thusness: so the insight of anatta and DO...what do these insights bring?
(10:58 PM) AEN: travise: "
in my experience you cannot simply let go until you have seen what you are. Until you know you, and the lie that you are something other than you is dissolved the you not continuing will be the wrong you. Knowing what you are is not done by letting go, or by simply being, but only by looking at you."
(10:59 PM) AEN: - http://now-for-you.com/viewtopic.php?t=5561
(10:59 PM) Thusness: in awareness practice, it is all about 'seeing', about arising insight, about ?
(11:00 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:04 PM) Thusness: if ur insight matures, naturally everything is transparently clear and obvious
(11:05 PM) Thusness: only and purely aggregates and function like DO.
(11:05 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:05 PM) Thusness: u no more look and reference to a behind reality
(11:06 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:10 PM) AEN: btw
(11:11 PM) AEN: how shld i reply richard... shld i also explain the diff between anatta and non dual?
(11:12 PM) Thusness: non-dual is an experience of no subject-object division
(11:12 PM) Thusness: it is the degree of clarity
(11:14 PM) Thusness: when we are still not free from the influence of the dualistic and inherent tendencies, it is difficult to experience the 'aggregates' directly
(11:15 PM) Thusness: when u realized it is also been so, no behind reality, then aggregates, thoughts, sound...etc are vividly clear
(11:16 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:18 PM) AEN: richard herman seems to suggest he lose non dual awareness when he's stressed:
There is the unobstructed quality I described in the earlier post. It is not continuous, there are moments of eclipse.
Most of the time I dont believe the story, but sometimes under certain circumstanced there is a lapse. It may be a case of old deep conditioning. For instance not long ago my son was kicked in the groin at school because he has mild tourettes, and the other kids were amused. By kicking him in the groin his anxiety and fear made his tourettes worsen to the delight of the bullies. On being called to the school there were moments when the situation, the story, was ....compelling, for me. so much so that equinimity did not come easy. This is very different than say buying fruit at the market and walking slowly home.
In my experience there are times when awakeness lapses . With practice the karmic triggers that would close things up before do not close things up as easily now.. "Awakeness" when it is truly clear isnt acknowledged as such, There is no checking back,,,"yes I am awake". Complete eclipse or seeming eclipse rarely occurs now.
Once again this is my experience, it may be different for you.
(11:40 PM) AEN: btw what do u mean by suffering too is to bring about such insight
(11:41 PM) Thusness: i go sleep liao. think through
(11:43 PM) AEN: posted: http://newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?p=100755#post100755
(11:45 PM) AEN: updated
(11:50 PM) Thusness: "it is the degree of clarity" of what?
(11:50 PM) Thusness: din'
don't just cut and paste
(11:50 PM) AEN: oic..
degree of clarity on the non-dual and anatta nature of consciousness?
(11:51 PM) Thusness: non-dual and anatta is a matter of degree of clarity
(11:52 PM) AEN: of awareness?
of the transience
(11:52 PM) Thusness: of the relationship between awareness and transience
(11:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:54 PM) Thusness: one is truly existing behind reality somehow having a 'non-dual' experience.
(11:54 PM) Thusness: one is realizing that awareness is a DO manifestation
(11:55 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:02 AM) Thusness: it is the degree of clarity of the relationship between awareness and transience.
what r u talking abt?
(12:03 AM) AEN: hmm... rephrasing it: Non-dual is an experience of no subject-object division, it is the degree of clarity of the relationship between awareness and transience that matters.
(12:04 AM) Thusness: why don't u just say 'between anatta and non-dual, it is just the degree and depth of clarity between Awareness and the Transience'
(12:05 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:06 AM) Thusness: i go sleep liao
(12:06 AM) AEN: ok.. nite
(12:19 AM) Thusness: only and purely aggregates, only the 18 dhatus, 'only the world referencing itself'. The tendency to reference back to a 'Self/self' is replaced by the thorough insight of anatta and DO.
and write in proper english...