Showing posts with label Empty Clarity. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Empty Clarity. Show all posts



John Tan shared a nice picture generated by ChatGPT. It reminded me that I had a dream of people being semi transparent that inspired me two weeks before my anatta insight and mind body drop over a decade ago. John tan replied, “This is good. Be light and insubstantial when you meditate.”

“Just remember it has to be light and insubstantial without essence”


ChatGPT: “A serene and spiritual image showing a person in deep meditation. The person is sitting cross-legged, their expression calm and peaceful. Around them, a radiant light is emanating outward, resembling the transformation of a concave lens turning convex. This radiant light gradually dissolves into a spectrum of rainbow colors, symbolizing insubstantiality, lightness, weightlessness, and a lack of dimensions. The background is tranquil, enhancing the sense of peace and spiritual depth of the scene.


Here are two images that combine elements from your previous requests, featuring the tranquil background of the first image with the transparent meditator from the last image, surrounded by radiant light transforming into a spectrum of rainbow colors.”

Trying the poetic capabilities of chatgpt.. still cant really get the poem right but lazy to tweak it further.



In the mind's light, where appearances play,

Unlocatable and radiant, in a vibrant array.

Essenceless, like reflections in a stream,

Non-arising, in this luminous dream.


Dependent origination, the dance of the seen,

Vivid yet essenceless, like a moonlit sheen.

No true arising, no solidified state,

Just a play of light, both simple and great.


In this realm, no seer stands alone,

Just the seen, in a spectrum shown.

Wondrously ordinary, yet profoundly free,

Where luminous meets the everyday, effortlessly.


Each vision, from sky to bird in flight,

Radiates in nonduality, both day and night.

Alive in each moment, yet inherently serene,

A display of emptiness, in a vibrant scene.


In seeing, just the seen, a revelation deep,

Where nothing truly exists, not even a leap.

No seer, no seeing, and crucially, nothing seen,

Like moon reflections, serene and keen.


A manifestation without essence, a dance so bright,

In the nature of mind, a radiant sight.

Not nihilism, but a truth so keen,

In the heart of appearance, nothing truly seen.

 

---

 

André A. Pais
Except for the repetition of "keen" towards the end, I liked it very much!



  • Soh Wei Yu
    Yeah many repetitions of 'keen' and 'seen' in this one. lol
     
    ChatGPT wrote me this poem earlier this year: 
     
    Language's Web
     
    “ChatGPT is more poetic than me:

    In the dance of words and thoughts,
    A thinker thinks, a seer sees,
    But language's web, a veil it weaves,
    For in the wind that gently blows,
    No separate wind or blowing knows.

    A river flows, no river found,
    Just flowing, ever boundless sound,
    Seeing is the seen, no more,
    No seer lurking, watching o'er.

    In every moment, ceaseless change,
    Reality's vast, unending range,
    The seer, the seen, the very thought,
    Are one, their separation naught.

    In thunder's roar, or lightning's flash,
    No agent hides, no separate clash,
    Awareness, like the burning fire,
    Is transient's endless, vibrant choir.

    In realization, dualities fade,
    No knower, known, no separate stage,
    Appearances and cognition, too,
    No boundaries, undivided view.

    In waking life and mundane tasks,
    No separate self, no questions asked,
    The universe in walking, driving,
    Boundless, centerless, ever thriving.

    So let the world in vivid hues,
    Unveil its radiant, wondrous truth,
    No center, reference, or divide,
    In seamless dance, all forms abide.”

     

      Soh Wei Yu
      ChatGPT
      光明慧影
      Luminous Wisdom-Reflection

      光明心海,即景无边,
      Luminous heart ocean, is boundless scenes,
      景中只见,无自性,
      Within the view, only sights, essence-free.

      无观者独,景自明,
      No standalone observer, scene is self-knowing,
      寻常奇观,无尽显,
      Ordinary marvels, endlessly they span.

      天树鸟语,非二韵,
      Sky, tree, bird-song, in nondual rhyme,
      生而无我,万物怀。
      Alive without self, all embraced by the sky.

      见中只有见,悟途开,
      In seeing, just the seen, wisdom's way,
      无心境二元,境界外。
      No mind-object duality, beyond realm's gate.

      月影水中,光明显,
      Moon's reflection in water, luminously present,
      心性空明,光映现。
      Heart's nature is empty clarity, light's essence evident.





    ----



    In the Realm of Awakening


    In the land where dreams and waking blend,
    A journey towards truth, with no defined end.
    Why seek awakening? You might inquire,
    It's a quest for light, an undying fire.

    A gift unparalleled, I boldly claim,
    In its pursuit, much to gain.
    In the awakening path, the choice is vast,
    Between peace and the contrasts that last.

    Let me offer you a glimpse, oh so rare,
    Of a world beyond dreams, beyond compare.
    Direct realization, pure and profound,
    Where truth is found, beyond mind's bound.

    Imagine a life, in effortless flow,
    No 'I' to grasp, no ego to show.
    Where self dissolves, in clarity's bright light,
    A marvel of life, so clear and right.

    In this awakening, the world vibrantly alive,
    Vivid, intense, where true joys thrive.
    Colors and sounds, in perfect clarity,
    A universe singing, in endless rarity.

    A fairy-tale realm, free from all dismay,
    Each moment anew, in boundless play.
    Amidst chaos, a sustaining peace,
    Where fearlessness in life's twists never ceases.

    A world so pure, untouched by strife,
    Each detail sparkling, with vivifying life.
    Boundless, infinite, in seamless day,
    Awakened life, a lucid, graceful ballet.

    Like Blake's cleansed doors of perception,
    The universe in pure, luminous reflection.
    Mountains and stars, not a hairbreadth away,
    In this boundless dance, we joyfully sway.

    Mahayana's sutras, now so clearly seen,
    The earth as pure land, forever serene.
    Tantra's wisdom, in every sight,
    This world, in Buddha's wondrous light.

    Freedom from imagined boundaries, so vast,
    A dance of life, brilliantly cast.
    A body unconfined, by division's illusion,
    In awakened state, a harmonious fusion.

    Better than peaks, in meditative trance,
    Or psychedelic hues, in fleeting glance.
    Vivid existence, leaving no trace,
    Like wind and waves, in cosmic embrace.

    In seeing, just sceneries, self-knowing, so bright,
    No seer, no thinker, just luminous light.
    A true account, of the awakened way,
    Words striving to express, what they can barely say.

    A fragment of truth, in these lines so keen,
    Beyond words, the gateless Zen, unseen.
    So seek this path, with heart sincere,
    For in awakening, life's beauty becomes clear.

    A journey of spirit, in truth's embrace,
    In the realm of awakening, find your true grace.


     



    Bahiya Sutta: In the Seamless Realm of Pure Perception

    In the seen, just the seen, clarity's embrace,
    In the heard, only the heard, a simple grace.
    In the sensed, merely the sensed, in every place,
    In the cognized, simply the cognized, not a trace.

    The Buddha's teaching to Bahiya, clear and profound,
    "There's no thing here," where wisdom is found.
    In this seamless realm, where no self is bound,
    Duality and inherent self, both unground.

    The seen is the seeing, no seer to contend,
    No division, no duality, on this we depend.
    Seeing itself, indistinguishable from the seen,
    Knowingness is merely the display, pristine and clean.

    No trio of seer, seeing, seen, in the fray,
    In direct experience, where clarity holds sway.
    Illusions of separation, inherent existence at bay,
    Dispelled, revealing the truth's own way.

    Pristine consciousness, an empty expanse,
    Like 'weather', a term for rain's dance.
    No essence of its own, just a happenstance,
    Luminous manifestation, the only stance.

    No lightning but flash, no wind but its course,
    No water but flowing, from no source.
    In this reality, actions without force,
    Luminous manifestation, the only discourse.

    River flowing, wind blowing, seen as seeing,
    Scenery sees, sound hears, in pure presencing.
    In this realization, no self for decreeing,
    In pure perception's realm, truly freeing.

    Only verbs, in a world vast and clear,
    No self to build, no shadow to fear.
    In realization, liberation's cheer,
    In pure perception's realm, we revere.

    In this view, both separation and self dissolve,
    Consciousness not a substrate, forms that evolve.
    Never arisen, just displays that revolve,
    In the seamless realm of pure perception, we solve.

    No being, just presencing, a constant flow,
    In the realm of pure perception, we come to know.
    A world without a seer, no self to show,
    Just the seamless dance, in its eternal glow.




    In the Essence of Awakening

    A friend once inquired, with curiosity alight,
    "What's the feel of awakening, in its height?"
    I replied, "In this state, profound and bright,
    No self, no body, just an infinite sight.

    When I'm driving, no driver's essence,
    Just roads and trees in coalescence.
    An endless field, self-experiencing, immense,
    No distance, no 'me here,' just pure presence.

    In this awakening, details vividly stand out,
    Textures and details, without a doubt.
    Presencing, as if consciousness takes a new route,
    Out of body, into the world, without a scout.

    No knower behind, just experience so clear,
    Each moment, each sensation, strikingly near.
    Vivid experience, a dance so dear,
    When self dissolves, truth does appear.

    Curiosity about travel then came to be,
    "If there's no locality, why the need to see?"
    Non-locality, I explained, isn't about being free
    To teleport, but about experiencing reality.

    Specific conditions give rise to each sight,
    Not bound by essence, but by light's might.
    Each appearance, a result of conditions' flight,
    Manifesting vividly, day and night.

    Like moon on water, a reflection's dream,
    Phenomenal appearances, a constant stream.
    No intrinsic essence, just a transient beam,
    Emerging from conditions, a luminous theme.

    Upon waking, sounds herald the day's start,
    Birds chirping, fans humming, an art.
    No 'I' to be found, just a world apart,
    An endless field where experiences impart.

    Presencing stands out, textures so vivid,
    In an awakened state, nothing is rigid.
    The world itself walks, a sight splendid,
    No 'I' walking, just experience blended.

    In this realm, each detail comes alive,
    With no trace of self, sensations thrive.
    An infinite field where perceptions dive,
    Truth revealed, in awakening's hive."
     
     
    -------------
     
     
    Before birth, Who am I?


    In the realm of inquiry, where thoughts entwine,
    A question profound, in silence, divine.
    "Before birth, who am I?" the seeker's call,
    A journey inward, beyond the mind's wall.

    In Zen's quiet echo, a koan takes flight,
    Unraveling self, in the stillness of night.
    The chirp of a bird, the rustling tree,
    A portal to the Source, through inquiry, we see.

    "Who hears this sound?" the quest begins,
    As ego recedes, the spirit within.
    Not in thoughts, but in Awareness true,
    The essence of Being comes into view.

    A space wide-awake, featureless, vast,
    Before all sound, unshadowed, and vast.
    A radiant void, where perceptions meet,
    In this silent expanse, consciousness greets.

    Tracing back to the Source, a luminous trail,
    An undeniable Presence, where words fail.
    Questions arise, yet in stillness, dissolve,
    In the core of Awareness, mysteries resolve.

    A Certainty of Being, untouched by doubt,
    In clear knowingness, truth echoes out.
    "I AM," the realization, profound and bright,
    A beacon of clarity, in the soul's night.

    In the practice of inquiry, a path unfolds,
    Where the mind's illusions gently dissolve.
    To see with clarity, beyond thought's maze,
    In the presence of now, truth's clear gaze.

    "Before birth, who am I?" the koan endures,
    In the heart of silence, the Source assures.
    A journey inward, to the essence, so pure,
    In this quest of self, the spirit's allure.

    So ponder with depth, let stillness guide,
    To the unspoken answer, where truths reside.
    For in the heart of silence, wisdom's embrace,
    In the Source through inquiry, find your place.
     

     Yin Ling shared:


    I really like the progression of insight that Mipam Rinpoche alluded to below: 

    .


    When beginners properly investigate using the reasons that establish emptiness—such as [the reason of] being neither singular nor plural—through contemplating the meaning of the nonestablishment of a pot and so forth, they [mistakenly] think that the abiding reality is nonestablishment itself because, although existing when not analyzed, nothing is found upon investigation. Therefore, through alternating appearance and emptiness, the empty quality dawns.


      At that time, by contemplating that the nonexistence of phenomena also is just a mere imputation not actually established, or by contemplating the manner in which things appear while empty from the beginning, one generates the distinctive certainty that while empty, they appear and while appearing, are empty, like [a reflection of ] the moon in water. When the absence of intrinsic nature and dependent arising dawn without contradiction, one has “the understanding of unity.”


      At that time, certainty is generated in the manner that both—the lack of inherent nature and dependent arising—although different in being expressed by two phrases, are indivisible without the slightest difference in essence. Thereby, the thought that apprehends appearance as the basis of negation, which is affixed to an object of negation that is eliminated, naturally deconstructs. And then “dawn the qualities of a freedom from constructs, such as the ability to remain naturally free from negation and affirmation, adding and removing.


      Through becoming familiar with such a freedom of constructs again and again, all aspects of dualistic phenomena, in which one sets apart particular objects and their distinctive suchness, are purified. Through bringing forth an exceptional certainty in the nature of all phenomena as equality, one reaches completion.


    .


    “The corpus of the doctrines of Maitreya and the scriptures of the great chariot, Asaṅga, both teach with a single intent that a person on the ground of motivated conduct first understands all phenomena to be merely mind, and then experiences that the mind has nothing to perceive. Then, at the time of the supreme quality on the path of joining, one realizes that since the perceived does not exist, neither does the perceiver. Right after this, the truth of suchness, which is free from dualistic fixation, is directly realized. This is said to be the attainment of the first ground.”


    Excerpt From

    Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings

    Jamgon Mipam

    This material may be protected by copyright

    Some random compilation of John Tan comments I thought of sharing. [18/6/23, 1:07:21 AM] John Tan: 👍 No seer, no seeing, nothing seen means freedom from all elaborations into the natural state -- spontaneously presents and naturally perfected. A state free from conceptual elaborations can be non-mentation like what Tsongkhapa said, there is no wisdom and insight involved. Insight of non-inherentness will result in direct taste non-existence clear appearances. .... 

     
    “Ultimately, the basis is free from all elaborations, no mind, no consciousness, no conditions therefore no DO, no emptiness...no line of demarcation can be drawn.

    For a practitioner that has anatta insight, there is no issue on freedom from all elaborations of the ultimate, It is how the conventional is understood that is difficult.” -
    John Tan months ago

    —-

    “Yes, I think should add together as they represent the 2 different view of emptiness.

    Freedom from all elaborations and freedom from self-nature.

    Yeah I included the two. One is freedom from all elaboration, one is spacious dream-like nature, lack of self-nature as emptiness.” -
    John Tan 2022

    ——

    “It is not simply about freeing from elaborations and we r left with with the world also. Nor is it simply about experiencing presence and non-dual, they aren't the main concern.

    Look at the scenery, so lurid and vivid;

    Is the "scenery" out there?

    Feel the "hardness" of the floor;

    Is this undeniable "hardness" out there?

    If "hardness of the floor" aren't out there, are is "inside" the brain? There is no "hardness" in the brain u can locate in the parts that make up the experience of "hardness".

    It is not even in the "mind" for u can't even find "mind" then how can "in" the mind be valid?

    If "hardness" isn't external nor internal, then where is it?

    So, to me, buddhism is not about helping one taste presence or into an effortless state of non-dual or into a state free of conceptualities but also points out this fundamental cognitive flaw that confuses the mind. This is more crucial. If the cognitive fault isn't uprooted and seen through, then all experiences regardless of how mystical and profound will be distorted.

    It is not simply about freeing from elaborations and we r left with with "the world" also. Nor is it simply about experiencing presence and non-dual, they aren't the main concern.

    Look at the scenery, so lurid and vivid;

    Is the "scenery" out there?

    Feel the "hardness" of the floor;

    Is this undeniable "hardness" out there?

    If "hardness of the floor" aren't out there, is it "inside" the brain? There is no "hardness" in the brain u can locate in the parts that make up the experience of "hardness".

    Then we say "no", it is in the "mind". So now what that is believed to be "external" in the past is being "internalized" in a "mind".

    But WAIT,

    How can "hardness" which is no where to be found be in "mind"?

    Furthermore, we can't even find "mind" then how can "in" the mind be valid?

    If "hardness" isn't external nor internal, then where is it?

    So, to me, buddhism is not only about helping one taste presence or into an effortless state of non-dual or into a state free of conceptualities but more importantly points out this fundamental cognitive flaw that confuses the mind. This is more crucial. If the cognitive fault isn't uprooted and seen through, then all experiences regardless of how mystical and profound will be distorted.” -
    John Tan months ago

     

     ........

     [19/6/23, 4:59:42 PM] John Tan: But inexpressibility doesn't mean there is no valid means of presentation but whatever expressed always imply characterization. This is nothing new as it is also clearly expressed in Tao De Jing. [19/6/23, 5:09:56 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Tao te ching points to a similar insight as anatta and freedom from extremes? [19/6/23, 5:11:28 PM] John Tan: Not anatta but freedom from all conventional elaborations. [19/6/23, 5:11:38 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. [19/6/23, 5:12:39 PM] John Tan: U must discern the difference between nyingma and gelug understanding of emptiness. [19/6/23, 5:13:25 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Actually upanishads also i think. But then i think still based on atman “e organs, i.e., free from the dualistic mind (namshe). So the Upanishadic view is that the really existing, eternal / permanent, non-dual, non-referential cognition is the âtmà, and this is not dualistic mind. This Upanishadic view existed even before the Buddha, and this was what Sankaràcàrya expounded very clearly and most powerfully around the 6th century. This view, similar to this Sankara view, was refuted by Śāntarakṣita as a wrong view. The Vedàntic Sutras and Sàstra-s are full of statements like: This âtmà is truly existent beyond existence and non-existence. This is truly non-dual beyond dual and non-dual. This âtmà is the Great Thing (mahàvastu), which is permanent beyond permanent and impermanent, etc., etc. It is empty of all qualities (nirguna), which means empty of foreign qualities, but not empty (of itself), i.e., not empty of being a truly existing permanent entity (sat); not empty of being non-dual cognition (cit), and not empty of bliss (ànanda). Sat-cit-ànanda is the nature of this âtmà (or non-dual cognition). “ - https://www.byomakusuma.org/VedantaVisAVisShentong.html [19/6/23, 5:13:35 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Anurag also said advaita also stress its inexpressible [19/6/23, 5:13:45 PM] John Tan: Yes [19/6/23, 5:13:53 PM] John Tan: Even christian [19/6/23, 5:14:00 PM] John Tan: 🤣 [19/6/23, 5:14:05 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic [19/6/23, 5:15:00 PM] Soh Wei Yu: But i think longchenpa should be clear about the anatman and emptiness of inherent existence [19/6/23, 5:15:29 PM] John Tan: Definitely [19/6/23, 5:15:46 PM] John Tan: Din u read the illusory book? [19/6/23, 5:16:21 PM] John Tan: And don't anyhow comment stuff u r not sure 🤦 [19/6/23, 5:16:40 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah This is also nice Longchenpa: https://www.shambhala.com/sno.../the-practice-of-dzogchen-2/ Exactly what I am searching" IDENTIFICATION (OF THE BASIS) THROUGH (UNDERSTANDING THE) VIEW The External Apprehended Objects Are Non-Existent Emptiness (i) The appearances are unreal reflections like the eight examples of illusion. Every aspect of the five objects, such as form, included in the phenomena of the world and beings, are mere appearances with no true existence. All the appearances which have appeared to both the pure perceptions of the Buddhas and the impure perceptions of deluded beings are the percepts of wisdom and the mind. While the appearances are appearing to both perceptions, they are appearing with no inherent existence (Rang-bZhin), like a reflection in a mirror and rainbow rays in the sky. To the pure perception of wisdom the (appearances) transcend the extremes of existing and non-existing as there are no stains of apprehender and apprehended. As there is no creating, ceasing, and changing, all are free from the characteristics of compounded phenomena, the appearances of uncompounded emptiness-form, and are totally free from conceptualizations. To the perception of the deluded mind, (the appearances) merely appear as the object of apprehension of self (bDag-'Dzin), which have fallen into the extreme (concepts) of existing or non-existing, are detached from the characteristics of uncompounded (nature), and have strengthened the habituations of adventitious and circumstantial self-perceptions. So, here, one will understand that the objects, the delusory appearances of the mind, are unreal. Various external appearances, such as white and red, are merely the percepts of rigid habits, like a dream created by the drunkenness of ignorant sleep. There is not the slightest existence (in them) as the object in the (true) meaning. Also, those appearances are not mind from the very point of their arising, because their substantial characteristics, such as color, size, and distinctions, negate the character of the mind. At the same time, they are not other than the mind, because, in addition to their being merely the delusory perceptions (of the mind), no other object has ever been established as such. The appearances to the mind are just types of experience of rigid habits continuing from beginningless time. It is like dreaming last night about a magic show one has seen yesterday. Therefore, one should think that whatever appears are appearances of non existence, and are without foundation, abiding place, natural existence, and recognizable (entity). They are merely a clear appearance of the empty nature like a dream, magical display, mirage, echo, shadowy view (Mig-Yor), water-moon (reflection), miracle, and the city of smell-eaters (a spirit world). Whatever appears, self or others, enemies or friends, countries or towns, places or houses, food or drink or wealth, and whatever one does, eating or sleeping, walking or sitting, one should train in seeing them as unreal. One should devote oneself to this training in all its aspects: the preliminary, actual, and concluding practices. (ii) The objects, if analyzed, are emptiness. If the appearances are examined from gross to subtle down to atoms, they are partless and non-existent. So form is emptiness. (Likewise,) by examining color and recognition of sound, it (will be found to be) emptiness. By examining the form and essence of smell, it (will be found to be) emptiness. By examining the aspects of taste, they (will be found to be) emptiness. Especially, by examining the sources (sense-objects), the emptiness of touch will be reached. Although they are different in appearance, they are the same in their nature in being emptiness, so the emptiness of various objects are not separate categories. Their nature, like pure space, transcends being either separate or the same. So the nature of objective appearances is emptiness in its essence. The Apprehender Has No Foundation and No Root (i) The consciousnesses are self-clarity without foundation. (There are eight consciousnesses.) The five sense-consciousnesses; arise as the five objects such as form, the mind-consciousness cognizes the general impression (of the appearing objects) and designates them as the objects, the defiled mind-consciousness is the sense of negating, accepting, hating and disliking (etc.), the mind-consciousness arises after the six consciousnesses (five senses and universal ground consciousness), ...and the consciousness of universal ground is self-clarity (Rang-gSal) and no thought and is unrelated to the objects: these are the eight or six consciousnesses. At the (very) time of (functioning of any of) those consciousnesses themselves, whatever consciousness it is, it is clear, vivid, and self-clarity with no foundations. Although they appear clear, there is no substantial entity. They are appearing without existence, like clear space and a breeze with no dust. Their clarity is present naturally like the sky without clouds. Their movements are like wind, not in distinguishable substances. From the (very) time of appearing, (the consciousnesses) as the apprehenders are self-clarity and unrecognizable. Watch them when they are arising and when they are abiding. Relax naturally and watch the manner of appearing of the apprehender. Thereby one will realize the apprehenders as having the nature of merely an appearance of clarity with no existence, emptiness with no bias, and self-clarity with no foundation. (ii) (The subject), if analyzed, is emptiness without root. By analyzing (whether) the self-clear, baseless mind (exists) in the external appearances, inner physical body, or intermediate movements, or if the entity of the self-dwelling mind itself (can be) recognized in (its) design, color, birth, cessation, and abiding, one will realize that its nature is non-existence, baseless and free from the extremes of either existence or non-existence. In this training the devotion to the Lama is the only important thing. [19/6/23, 5:18:24 PM] Soh Wei Yu: So i think for longchenpa, nyingma, their freedom from elaborations include the emptiness of inherent existence [19/6/23, 5:18:39 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Maybe they differ from gelug in expression and emphasis? [19/6/23, 7:15:53 PM] John Tan: To me, this separation of "existence" from "what appears" is unique and very skillful. "Non-existence" appearance is essentially the same insight as anatta. It involves the 2 authentications: 1. Seeing through the reification of conventional construct and 2. Recognition of appearances as one's empty clarity. What makes appearances appear "real, solid and external" are our mistaken perception of the inherent framework of subject-action-object. But that is only part of the confusion. The other is not realizing what appears is just radiance, that is y it is illusory and insubstantial. However if we deconstruct entities and characteristics, then mind and phenomena, consciousness and conditions are all deconstructed, u can't treat mind as real due to point 1. Otherwise one skewed towards yogacara (but then yogacara doesn't actually treat mind as real either). It is sort of straw-man stereotyping a group of practitioners attaching to mind as real. ..... [1/8/23, 12:06:48 PM] John Tan: It is difficult for a mind holding essential view to understand conceptually seamlessness, free of divisions, boundaries and non-difference. The best it can do within the limitation of it's inherent framework is to describe the taste is like everything emerges from space or emptiness. So as a skillful mean, there is nothing wrong taking things dissolve into an all encompassing dharmadhatu much like how vajrayana visualize everything as deities. But like how ocean is realized as a construct as well as wave, ocean is not any special than wave. Then when background consciousness is gone and only empty appearances left, even "wave" is gone. Many got stuck at One-Mind, there r also many that got stuck in non-conceptualities also in de-construction and do know know the actual taste of empty radiance. [1/8/23, 12:08:49 PM] John Tan: Everything is of "nature" of space in contrast to everything dissolves into space and space becomes a special substratum. ..... [1/8/23, 12:14:20 PM] John Tan: Yes I agree. Coz many understand from essential view and thought they understood freedom from all elaborations. If it contradicts DO, then the view is essential view like what Tsongkhapa said. Means there is no contradiction between spontaneous presence and dependent arising. Also when one deconstruct, there r 2 authentications; one relates to de-construction of conceptual mind and the other is recognizing and directly tasting the empty radiance. [1/8/23, 12:15:44 PM] John Tan: Whether, we deconstruct self, internality-externality, physicality, cause-effect, we must have this direct taste of radiance and relates to the actual taste. ..... [27/8/23, 9:29:26 AM] John Tan: 👍 Not only that u cannot realize emptiness without the clarity, u cannot realize dependent origination without clarity, they r both talking about radiance and light. Another important point is we do not realize that we r analysing and understanding from the perspective from essential view. We "negate" from the standpoint of an essential view; we understand dependent arising from an inherent view without realizing it. We do not understand from the perspective of light and radiance. They understand "illusion" from an essential view and thought that because of illusoriness, it is inconsequential. ..... [8/9/23, 2:26:14 PM] John Tan: I suggest u look into DO, emptiness and understand the non-contradiction between free from all elaborations and DO-emptiness of the conventional. It is not easy to understand functioning in the non-essential way of manifestations. Even if one is clear of how the mind confuses itself with essential view in terms reification of entities-characteristics, it does not mean one can understand how empty radiance functions in the non-essential way. This requires not only stable insights but also very stable authentication of energy and radiance patterns -- that the natural expressions of empty radiance exhibits certain patterns. [8/9/23, 2:35:06 PM] John Tan: For example, u think it is so easy to come out the 12 afflictive chain of DO? [8/9/23, 2:36:49 PM] John Tan: This requires very stable insight and radiance experience and observe how a mind in confusion sets the wheel of samsara in action. [8/9/23, 2:42:06 PM] John Tan: Do u think it is so easy to point out consciousness and phenomena are like the 8 similes of illusions? Or despite vivid appearances, there is nothing that is "there" at all, no "thingness" can be found at all and because of this empty nature, whole of samsara as well of the immense diversities of radiance can manifest? How skillful is it in that pointing? Yet we just simply read pass such profound pointing. ..... ..... [8/9/23, 2:44:04 PM] John Tan: Yes. Only when we deeply experience and authenticate, then our faith in the teaching can grow. Not through blind believe and we will practice diligently ...... [8/9/23, 3:07:42 PM] John Tan: Yes and even micro and macro cosmic orbit breathing of taoism. But one doesn't need to know all or suddenly change path. De-construction of mental constructions and conceptualities for example is a very effective way until one releases itself in openness of radiance clarity. Every de-construction of reification is energy-related, it is a full path itself also just that we do not carry it all the way. ..... [8/9/23, 3:16:00 PM] John Tan: For example, as we let go reifications into presence, it is not something just "mental", it is equally "physical"; it is not just "mind", it is equally "body", "breath" and "energies". When we alternately experience total exertion and freedom from elaborations, the seamlessness and intimacies without self and inherentness of empty parts allow deeper insights of the non-essential (empty) radiance. Then it allows us to glimpse the non-contradiction between the ultimate and relative. [8/9/23, 3:16:33 PM] John Tan: This is very good yin ling, don't lose track and continue ur meditation. [8/9/23, 3:35:44 PM] John Tan: Then we slowly have a deep understanding of the "conventional" and "conceptual" not only from mental perspective like arm-chair philosophers, but we "SEE and TASTE" dimensions of energies, radiances, "physicalities" in these so called "conventional concepts". So when we say they r only "conceptually" designated, the depth of understanding is different. [8/9/23, 3:42:53 PM] John Tan: "Self" for example, is not just a conceptual construct, it is also at the same time immense energies "stuck" in conflicts manifested everywhere in our body.😬🤣

     

     

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    André A. Pais
    The point, however, is not that one keeps rehearsing in one's head the reasonings leading to an understanding of DO. If the aim is some kind of insightful lucidity free of conceptual elaborations, the 'presence' that is realized is not "a non-entity," or "empty of intrinsic nature." Those are just super useful conceptual elaborations, used prior to meditative equipoise or after, in post meditation discourse.

    Reply
    7h

    André A. Pais
    It's always important to distinguish path and fruition, equipoise and post meditation, approximate ultimate and actual ultimate, etc.

    Reply
    6h

    Soh Wei Yu
    André A. Pais What you said is not wrong, equipoise is without seer, seeing, seen, free from elaborations. But it is not seen here as contradicting D.O.:
    [1/8/23, 12:14:20 PM] John Tan: Yes I agree. Coz many understand from essential view and thought they understood freedom from all elaborations. If it contradicts DO, then the view is essential view like what Tsongkhapa said.
    Means there is no contradiction between spontaneous presence and dependent arising.
    Also when one deconstruct, there r 2 authentications; one relates to de-construction of conceptual mind and the other is recognizing and directly tasting the empty radiance.
    [1/8/23, 12:15:44 PM] John Tan: Whether, we deconstruct self, internality-externality, physicality, cause-effect, we must have this direct taste of radiance and relates to the actual taste.
    .....
    [27/8/23, 9:29:26 AM] John Tan: 👍
    Not only that u cannot realize emptiness without the clarity, u cannot realize dependent origination without clarity, they r both talking about radiance and light.
    Another important point is we do not realize that we r analysing and understanding from the perspective from essential view. We "negate" from the standpoint of an essential view; we understand dependent arising from an inherent view without realizing it. We do not understand from the perspective of light and radiance.
    They understand "illusion" from an essential view and thought that because of illusoriness, it is inconsequential.
    .....
    [8/9/23, 2:26:14 PM] John Tan: I suggest u look into DO, emptiness and understand the non-contradiction between free from all elaborations and DO-emptiness of the conventional.
    It is not easy to understand functioning in the non-essential way of manifestations.
    Even if one is clear of how the mind confuses itself with essential view in terms reification of entities-characteristics, it does not mean one can understand how empty radiance functions in the non-essential way.
    This requires not only stable insights but also very stable authentication of energy and radiance patterns -- that the natural expressions of empty radiance exhibits certain patterns.
    [8/9/23, 2:35:06 PM] John Tan: For example, u think it is so easy to come out the 12 afflictive chain of DO?
    [8/9/23, 2:36:49 PM] John Tan: This requires very stable insight and radiance experience and observe how a mind in confusion sets the wheel of samsara in action.
    [8/9/23, 2:42:06 PM] John Tan: Do u think it is so easy to point out consciousness and phenomena are like the 8 similes of illusions? Or despite vivid appearances, there is nothing that is "there" at all, no "thingness" can be found at all and because of this empty nature, whole of samsara as well of the immense diversities of radiance can manifest? How skillful is it in that pointing? Yet we just simply read pass such profound pointing. .....
    .....
    John tan also wrote in 2022, “Should not be immobilized by ultimate otherwise ultimate becomes a stage or a state. Whether Dzogchen or Yogacara, they both have their views of the conventional. So no worry of formulating a valid view of the conventional clearly as whatever views formulated will not survive ultimate analysis and that is how one refine our insights as thoroughly understanding the emptiness of the conventional, one liberates further one's mind. Even Dzogchen of basis is also a view so it too is empty when subject to ultimate analysis.”

    Reply
    18m
    Edited

    Soh Wei Yu
    Ultimate and Relative
    "If asked what I am most drawn to (in Tsongkhapa's teachings), I am most drawn to Prasangika's "mere imputation". The quintessence of "mere imputation" is IMO the essence of Buddhism. It is the whole of 2 truths; the whole of 2 folds. How the masters present and how it is being taught is entirely another matter. It is because in non-conceptuality, the whole of the structure of "mere imputation" is totally exerted into an instantaneous appearance that we r unable to see the truth of it. In conceptuality, it is expanded and realized to be in that structure. A structure that awakens us the living truth of emptiness and dependent arising that is difficult to see in dimensionless appearance."
    "In ultimate (empty dimensionless appearance), there is no trace of causes and conditions, just a single sphere of suchness. In relative, there is dependent arising. Therefore distinct in relative when expressed conventionally but seamlessly non-dual in ultimate."
    "When suchness is expressed relatively, it is dependent arising. Dependent designation in addition to causal dependency is to bring out a deeper aspect when one sees thoroughly that if phenomena is profoundly without essence then it is always only dependent designations."
    - Thusness, 2015
    Labels: Dependent Designation, Dependent Origination, Emptiness, Madhyamaka |

    Reply
    17m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Those who hold the view that ultimate is non-dependent and separate from the relative are the more extreme forms of Shentong that veer into Advaita Vedanta. No different from Advaita Vedanta view

    Reply
    17m

     Well expressed by Yin Ling

    Mind is luminous, bright, and knowing.
    Mind is empty of stains, stains of inherent existence.
    Every arising is the mind,
    Each touch,
    Each sound,
    Each taste,
    My hands rubbing each other,
    All my mind.
    So clear, so vivid, so luminous.
    Each arising is empty of stains,
    Each arising is a dependent arising,
    Each arising is a release all conditions into a display of emptiness,
    Nothing there, yet so vivid.
    Each arising is my true nature. Vivid and empty. Intimate as ever, I express myself as no-thing.
    The trees, cars, babies, mothers, ward,
    Speaks the dharma again and again,
    But they are not separate from me,
    We are not separate,
    Yet we are not apart.
    Yet there’s no we, as there’s no them?
    There’s no others!
    How else to describe with words?
    I do not know.
    My body and mind understands it intimately,
    The dharma, it speaks a language
    Of love and magic🥹

    Yin Ling 17 hours ago · What is mind? Rub your hand together, feel that? That is mind!