Some quotes by Acarya Malcolm Smith from Dharmawheel on Conventional vs Ultimate Truth

Malcolm: 

"“Conventional” simply means “functional,” it does not mean arbitrary or subjective. For example, perceiving water as amṛta, pus, boiling metal, etc., is invalid in the human realm.

One can build many kinds of cars, but if they don’t function as cars, they are not cars, conventionally speaking."

"No, conventions are not subjective, they are conventions because one or more people have agreed to call a functional thing a given name. For example, a truck is called a lorry in England, but they both refer to a heavy vehicle that carries loads."

"Conventional truths are derived from observing functional appearances. Falsehoods are derived from observing nonfunctional appearances. Example, lake vs. mirage."

"No, it is not more correct to say consciousness arises or ceases than a labelled self, a since consciousness is also a conventional label, like the label "self." Prior to analysis there is both a self, akuppa, and a consciousness. After analysis one will find neither self nor consciousness, beyond the designations "akuppa" and "consciousness." For example, take a car as a metaphor for "self". A car cannot be found in any part, all of its parts, or separate from its parts. Likewise, as self cannot be found in any aggregates, all of the aggregates, or apart from the aggregates. Likewise, consciousness cannot be found in the sense organ nor the sense object, both, or separate from them. The mind is also made of parts, and cannot be found in one of them, all of them, or separate from them.

Functionally speaking, we can say there is a self, because when I say "akuppa go there!" You will respond to this directive by saying yes or no. This means that "self" is functional. It is efficient. Whatever is functional corresponds with relative truth. If I said to you, "Malcolm go there!" you would respond, "I am not Malcolm." So calling you "malcolm" is not functional and therefore cannot be considered to be relatively true. Consciousness is a relative truth, as long as it performs its functions, then we can say "there is a consciousness." But when we analyze consciousness, we cannot find it outside of the conventions we use for an appearance we label "mind.""

"Two truths are specified, seeing correctly and seeing falsely. That’s enough. No need to have the Buddha declare that aggregates and so on are ultimate, otherwise it would have been game over for Madhyamaka at the beginning."

"Which Sutra view did you have in mind, the one where in PP Sūtra it is stated that all phenomena are nonarising, pure from the beginning, and the state of dharmatā? The dependent origination of phenomena? Emptiness? In what way does Dzogchen refute these views? We do not reject conventional truth in Dzogchen. Longchenpa was utterly clear on this point.

ChNN understood what is stated in the Dzogchen tantras: we do not make a distinction between sharp and dull. If someone is sincerely interested in the teachings, they do not have to convert to Buddhism, but it is not because Buddhism contains any wrong views. It does not. There is no contradiction between Dzogchen and the four truths of nobles. There are serious contradictions however with Samkhya, etc."

"This is not correct. There is such as thing as mundane correct view. A correct view in this case is one that is functional. For example, believing in normative causes and effects. We have to distinguish wrong views about entities from wrong views about essences. Christians have wrong views about both essences and entities, since they believe salvation comes from believing in the divinity of a man executed by Romans somewhere between 30-33 CE.

Buddhists only hold wrong views about essences, i.e. that knowledge obscuration of the innate habit of I-making."

Also see:

• Conventional Validity and Causal Efficacy
• Don't Neglect the Conventional

John Tan

S0h1hao7m4fl6s93orltm  ·
Ok enough of blahing for few weeks, this will be my last post.
For those who conclude mmk denies causal efficacy,
they have unknowingly fallen into the essentialist view of "true existence". Mmk only teaches if cause and effect exist essentially, then casuality is untenable and impossible.
Therefore don't just say "ultimately causality, self and phenomena are empty" but deeply understand:
In anatta, there is action without agent.
In prasangika, action is performed by empty agent.
As such "empty wars" kill, "empty self" suffers, empty self takes rebirth and only empty things have causal relations.
That is y Nagasena can be ferried by an "empty chariot".
Hence, don't neglect the imagined and experience the wonderment of seeing emptiness of the conventional.
An early Happy New Year to all and happy journey to all my dharma friends!

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William Lim
Nice blahing!
More empty blahing in the new year please.

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Yin Ling
So good. Why is the last post

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Geovani Geo
Starting from where the 'usual' man stands: All things are mind. There is not s single event/thing/no-thing that is not in the mind brought in by the senses. So, what are 'things, 'distance', 'weight' or 'mass'? Nothing but a breeze, a hazy appearance, a dream. Nothing. And, what is 'mind' and 'senses'? Likewise, nothing. When the mind is nothing, everything is nothing, beyond 'is' or 'is not'.
"Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."
~ Shakespeare ~
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Geovani Geo
And:
“At no time throughout the beginningless succession of lifetimes has there ever been an actual birth. There has only been the appearance of birth. There has never been actual death, only the transformation of appearances like the shift from the dream state to the waking state . . . throughout the beginningless succession of lifetimes there has never been any actual experience of transition or going from one state to another, or any actual experience of being located in some other place. This is analogous to the images in a dream.”
~ Longchenpa
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John Tan
Geovani Geo there is no need to worry about birth and death ultimately but that is quite useless if we do not know about the conventional that we r trapped. Even empty words sets the mind spinning and emotional obturations in motion.
We thought all along only truly existence things can initiate action and this is misknowledge and confusion; rather it is empty phenomena that r imaginary and non-existence entities setting things in motion. It is this imaginary entity that is experiencing karma and that is how the karma works and as long as we r not Buddha, it will continue endlessly. For the benefit of u as a sincere practitioner. Anyway I will be away for quite some time. Enjoy the ride and happy new year.
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John Tan
Geovani Geo what u quoted must go hand in hand with this:
Longchenpa on Nihilism
From Finding Rest in the Nature of Mind.
Those who scorn the law of karmic cause and fruit
Are students of the nihilist view outside the Dharma.
They rely on the thought that all is void;
They fall in the extreme of nothingness
And go from higher to lower states.
They have embarked on an evil path
And from the evil destinies will have no freedom,
Casting happy states of being far away.
”The law of karmic cause and fruit,
Compassion and the gathering of merit -
All this is but provisional teaching fit for children:
Enlightenment will not be gained thereby.
Great yogis should remain without intentional action.
They should meditate upon reality that is like space.
Such is the definitive instruction.”
The view of those who speak like this
Of all views is the most nihilist:
They have embraced the lowest of all paths.
How strange is this!
They want a fruit but have annulled its cause.
If reality is but a space-like void,
What need is there to meditate?
And if it is not so, then even if one meditates
Such efforts are to no avail.
If meditation on mere voidness leads to liberation,
Even those with minds completely blank
Attain enlightenment!
But since those people have asserted meditation,
Cause and its result they thus establish!
Throw far away such faulty paths as these!
The true, authentic path asserts
The arising in dependence of both cause and fruit,
The natural union of skillful means and wisdom.
Through the causality of nonexistent but appearing acts,
Through meditation on the nonexistent but appearing path,
The fruit is gained, appearing and yet nonexistent;
And for the sake of nonexistent but appearing beings,
Enlightened acts, appearing and yet nonexistent, manifest.
Such is pure causality’s profound interdependence.
This is the essential pith
Of all the Sutra texts whose meaning is definitive
And indeed of all the tantras.
Through the joining of the two accumulations,
The generation and completion stages,
Perfect buddhahood is swiftly gained.
Thus all the causal processes
Whereby samsara is contrived should be abandoned,
And all acts that are the cause of liberation
Should be earnestly performed.
High position in samsara
And the final excellence of buddhahood
Will speedily be gained.
- Finding Rest in the Nature of Mind (vol 1)
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Geovani Geo
John, yes, the whole story of movement and volition is in the imaginary realm. We where used to look at 'things' and 'events' as if outside, mistake which is the triggering of samsara. Things and events have no basis, no ground. How funny: if we touch the empty lucid factor that leads to the equalness of all appearances, we are unable to find such factor.
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Geovani Geo
"The fruit is gained, appearing and yet nonexistent;
And for the sake of nonexistent but appearing beings,
Enlightened acts, appearing and yet nonexistent, manifest."
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John Tan
Geovani Geo yes therefore understanding imagined non-existence things having no basis and no ground is not yet even half the journey. For authenticatic path and right understanding and "speedily be gained" as longchenpa said, read the text above by him line by line otherwise one falls into nihilism.
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John Tan: I think u have read enough of books and u already have the books needed to refine your understandings post anatta. 

From anatta-->deconstruction of both mind and phenomena into empty appearances as one's radiance clarity-->freedom from all elaborations (mmk)-->spontaneous presence

What u lack is the nuances of anatta in actual experience that is difficult to tell as the energy system differs for each person and can only be known by that individual when he tasted it.  Otherwise u just actualize through the 6 parimatas.

Find out what diet combinations help u detox so that your inner organs become healthy and less inflammatory + deep restful sleep.  U have to understand what is most crucial is the evenness of non-dual at the moment of sleep and the moment…

Soh: Oic..
[12:20 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: When u say "Cause and effect are empty but not a rejection of dependent origination", do u know what it means? (Soh: from Don't Neglect the Conventional)
[8:48 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Y do u like to cut and put our conversations in other forums for what?
[8:48 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: A simple answer just answer Ur own

Soh: Oic..
Cause and effect are empty doesnt mean they are nonexistent
But they are dependent designations.. like father and son (Soh: see Relationship Between Father and Son and Dzogchen: Beyond Cause and Effect). So it is not inherent cause and inherent production. Like chariot and parts are also dependent designations.. awareness and object of awareness.. and so on. In freedom from proliferation, awareness and object of awareness, cause and effect are all emptied into nondual suchness.. but in terms of relative they are expressed as dependent designations. Father and son, consciousness and object of consciousness and so on are neither same nor different, merely dependently designated and empty
In terms of relative the seeing of dependent designation also allows penetrating into total exertion
Freedom from proliferation is more like -A

John Tan: Yes also Like cup or self, although these r conceptual notions however they have conventional validity.  There is no "cup" or "self" are empty and non-arisen, but there r conventional validity in that there is a functioning purpose.  Cause and effect serves their purpose this way linking the conventions.

Soh: Oic.. like that time malcolm mentioned,

Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:09 am
Well, actually the I-making habit, the basic knowledge obscuration, has no real existence as a self, but it functions as an agent of karma and a recipient of karma, so there is that, even though the "I" it imputes does not exist at all.


...

No, it is an imagined, nonexistent self that causes and experiences everything, for example, when a car is in accident, it is the imagined car for which one pays the damages, not the wrong view of the imagined car. But perhaps this is a special point of Candrakīrti's Madhyamaka, unlikely to be found the Visuddhimagga.
[10:27 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Lol yeah
[10:28 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: When we neglect all these, we become nihilistic.
[10:29 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: What the non prasangika don't understand is they thought there must be real referent in order to have causal efficacy.
Soh: Ic..
[10:31 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Even in objective science, gravity explains perfectly the man-size John Tan: Newtonian world but there is no "gravity" as a force pulling any object as explained in relativity.
[10:33 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Like fiat money is empty but moves the world.
Soh: Oic..
John Tan: And it is precisely that because the conventional r empty of any essential nature, such causal relationships r possible, inherent and truly existing things can't.

For non-dual junkies:

If u neglect the conventional, don't talk about the ultimate.

For the ultimate is merely the emptiness of the conventional.

If u neglect "body", don't talk about "mind".

For "body" and "mind" are merely distinct conventionally,

Ultimately they lack sameness or difference.

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Yin Ling

Tan Jui Horng really true. I’m very sensitive to Qi, body energy. I always hate it because I couldn’t practise when it’s out of balance, it’s really uncomfortable, even suffering. but now I see the blessings of it. It’s like a warning signal.

I say all this and I am solidly trained in western medicine.

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Anurag Jain

John Tan

"Ultimately body and mind lack sameness and difference"

So what about your "subtlest of Qi or Consciousness"? Is it a different animal?

Soh Wei Yu

Quotes from AtR Guide:

“Sitting idly waiting for my next meeting, I wrote this poem to past time :

真实的财富, 只是身心健康。

执于修心而轻修身, 是大病。

见身本无身时, 身体也是心。

见心无心, 迟钝笨拙也是禅。

生老病死梦一场, 不要执着。

舍弃多余的有无, 傲游无境。

True wealth is the healthiness of one's body-mind.

Over attached in mind practices and neglect body is big disease.

When we realized body is empty of body, body is also mind.

When we realized mind is no-mind, even clumsiness is zen.

Birth, old age, sickness and death is but a dream, do not be attached.

Give up whatever that is "extra" (of something and nothing), And roam freely in the territory of no-dimension.

！” – John Tan, 2020

Exercise, Diet, Sleep

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

· iSpongic2aag070fh1d ·

Tommy McNally:

““I was a fucking mess for years. Last October, I made the decision to change that once and for all: I quit smoking cigarettes, quit SSRI's, and started getting up at 0500, exercising, and eating cleaner.

On the 26th of July this year, I started going to the gym for weightlifting and cardio. Yesterday was my 100th session.

The difference that exercise, a better diet and a consistent, non-negotiable routine makes - physically, mentally and spiritually - cannot be overstated.

I've never mentioned any of this publicly and I'm not posting this for kudos. I'm posting this because if I can do it, then so can you.”

- https://www.facebook.com/100055831473323/posts/326782622526118/

[5:55 pm, 11/12/2021] John Tan: This is extremely important. In fact you should encourage ATR group to do that.

[6:02 pm, 11/12/2021] John Tan: Instead of just always talking about ultimate, anatta..

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Данила Игнатовски

Totally agree. Ive been involved in calisthenics, workout and yoga for a 5-6 years for now and it gives A LOT to my calmness and much decrease pain in the mindass after some intensive practice. Push ups and something like this is great for home everyday practice if you dont like gyms.

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“Prana (Soh: energy, life, breath, or chi) and the apparent body, they are not related to mind, they are mind. Opening and regulating the apparent

body, is opening and regulating the mind.

Was very much inspired by some truly profound and insightful texts (Soh: a Dzogchen text) about vayu, body and mind that Kyle Dixon sent me a few weeks ago. ”

- John Tan, 2018

“Body is Mind

What we called "body" is just "Mind".

Massaging the body, is massaging Mind.

Detoxing the body, is cleansing Mind.

Feeling the breath, is feeling Mind.

Integrate the body fully in practice,

For the body has always been what we called - "Mind".”

- John Tan, 2019

What is most important is how you can understand deeply the energy circulatory of your body and how it helps to expand and open our pristine consciousness… ...Body is a whole universe of itself. It cannot be just knowledge, it has to be intimate to the very depth. Intimate to [the] depth that you can feel no distinction between body and consciousness.

- John Tan, 2019

"In Vajrayāna, cakras are areas in the body where the venous, arterial and nerves collect, generally around vital organs. Where these channels [nadis] converge are areas where the vāyu becomes more concentrated.

The point of a knowledge of where nadi and vāyu collects is related to a knowledge of how to manipulate the body to in turn control the mind. The mind or consciousness, rides the vāyu. And actually in some systems, mind [citta] and vāyu are held to be synonymous, no difference at all. If vāyu is coordinated then the mind will be calm and pliable, alternatively if the vāyu is agitated then the mind will be chaotic with lots of concepts and thoughts.

Vajrayāna has a strong emphasis on the body for this very reason, and cakras are one aspect of the yogic understanding of physiology.

The ability to control the body and in turn the mind in this way means a practitioner of Vajrayāna can establish states of dhyāna and samādhi much more rapidly than systems that only employ methods like samatha solely to enter dhyāna." - Kyle Dixon, 2021

“Tibetan Buddhists practice tsa lung or trul khor which is pranayama, sometimes called “yantra yoga.” These Tibetan and Indian physical yogas are the basis for what later became hatha yoga and so on.

In Vajrayāna, the premise is that the mind or consciousness is inseparable from the vāyu, which is the air element within the body. The vāyus circulate throughout the body via the nadis or channels. As such, through postures and breathing methods, you control the nadis and the vāyu, and once the vāyu is coordinated, then the mind becomes calm and pliable.

Some Buddhist systems emphasize sitting meditation, and as a result, eventually access dhyāna and samādhi. In Vajrayāna, through applying pranayama, that same dhyāna and samādhi is accessed much more rapidly.

In this way, these physical yogas as applied through the lens of the buddhadharma become a vehicle to awakening just the same as other meditation techniques, and when coupled with other meditation techniques, these physical yogas are a powerful supplement and method which greatly enhance one’s path and practice.

There should be absolutely no conflict. If the conflict is based in doctrine, then study the Buddhist view and understand what you are doing... the premise isn’t different. The point of departure is the nuances of the soteriological frameworks as u/animuseternal noted. In practice however, you are going to end up accomplishing the same result, the coordination of vāyu and mind.” – Kyle Dixon, 2021

“[3/12/15, 9:03:06 PM] John Tan: Actually when you practice yoga, if you got the 慧根 (faculty of wisdom)... you will realise the purpose of the asanas to prepare the body to fully open up itself. It is quite ironical because you practice to be natural, tender and flexible...but if you practice, you will realise. The body is tense, rigid and it can't relax and open up itself...it is similar to a mind full of proliferated views and dualistic tendencies going through the 7 phases of insights to open up.”

You can't truly open your mind without opening your body. When the insights open the eye that enable you to experience directly, you must be able to directly feel and experience the supporting conditions that help to lead one to openness. And the body also requires certain mind state to complement your body to open up... your breath and posture and mind... All contribute and play a role... Have you felt your body so clean, cleansed, unobstructed and pure before?

- John Tan, 2019

QUOTES.JUSTDHARMA.COM

The birth of certainty ~ Lama Tsongkhapa

The birth of certainty ~ Lama Tsongkhapa

Soh Wei Yu

"There is no "origination" if there is no cause and effect ultimately."

Nagarjuna:

What arises in dependence is not born;

That is proclaimed by the supreme knower of reality Buddha).

Candrakirti:

(The realist opponent says): If (as you say) whatever thing arises in dependence is not even born, then why does (the Madhyamika) say it is not born? But if you (Madhyamika) have a reason for saying (this thing) is not born, then you should not say it "arises in dependence." Therefore, because of mutual inconsistency, (what you have said) is not valid.)

(The Madhyamika replies with compassionate interjection:)

Alas! Because you are without ears or heart you have thrown a challenge that is severe on us! When we say that anything arising in dependence, in the manner of a reflected image, does not arise by reason of self-existence - at that time where is the possibility of disputing (us)!” - excerpt from Calming the Mind and Discerning the Real: Buddhist Meditation and the Middle View

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

How Experiential Realization Helps in Liberation

How Experiential Realization Helps in Liberation

Anurag Jain

Neither am I denying anything

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

Two-Way Dependency/Dependent Designation

Two-Way Dependency/Dependent Designation

Anurag Jain

And I think he puts DO well

LOTSAWAHOUSE.ORG

Three Principal Aspects of the Path

Three Principal Aspects of the Path

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