Direct Seal of Great Bliss
Thusness wrote in the comments section of the LuminousEmptiness blog in 2009:

http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/2008/07/where-did-my-breath-go.html
What expressed is truly wonderful!
It is so much to my liking that I have to say something.

Always only an asumption collating together and called 'something'.
Be it breath, anger, fear or anything manifesting;
Always only sensations or heart beats or coldness or an arising thought of something.
Exactly like what Buddha taught in anatta,
Merely aggregates and 18 dhatus playing;
With no agent anywhere found hiding.

When experience matures in the practice of great ease,
The experience is maha! Great, miraculous and bliss.
In mumdane acitivies of seeing, eating and tasting,
When expressed poetically is asif the entire universe meditating.

Whatever said and expressed are really all different flavours,
Of this everything of everything dependently originating,
As this moment of vivid shimmering.

May Buddha blessed you full enlightenment,
good luck and forgive my busy-bodying!

Gone!

http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/2008/12/reflections-on-naropa-summary-of.html

Great and wonderful insight!
Just a 2 cents from a PasserBy, nothing intense.

It is pointless to know the nature of mind is luminous and empty,
If there is no insight that this innate nature is the direct seal of Great Bliss.

After insight of anatta, emptiness and non-dual luminosity,
It is advisable not to retract to practices that made mind contrive.

Never underestimate this direct path of great ease,
Even aeons lives of practices cannot touch the depth of its profundity.

Deeply experience this luminous yet empty nature, its thorough effortlessness and spontaneity.
It is the heart of Mahamudra, the great art that simply be.

Deep bow and reverent to Naropa for this view concisely put and,
Homage to the ground, this natural state of Great Bliss.

Happy Journey!

...

"I don't personally find it pointless - rather, a step along the way ;-)..."

Indeed and thanks for pointing out. :)

The degree of “un-contrivance” is the degree of how unreserved and fearless we open to whatever is.
For whatever arises is mind, always seen, heard, tasted and experienced.
What that is not seen, not heard and not experienced is our conceptual idea of mind.
Whenever we objectify the “brilliance, the pristine-ness” into an entity that is formless,
It becomes an object of grasp that prevents the seeing of the “forms”, the texture and the fabric of awareness.
The tendency to objectify is subtle, even ‘nowness’ and ‘hereness’ are as ‘selfness’. :)
Whatever arises merely dependently originates, needless of who, where and when.

All experiences are equal, luminous yet empty of self-nature.
Though empty it has not in anyway denied its vivid luminosity.

Liberation is experiencing mind as it is.
Self-Liberation is the thorough insight that this liberation is always and already is;
Spontaneously present, naturally perfected!

Just a sharing.

Happy new year to you!

....

http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/2009/03/all-experience-is-mind.html



Yes indeed. From the perspective of awareness, there is no way to point to a moment of experience and say this is ‘in’ and this is ‘out’. All ‘in’ are as ‘out’; to awareness seamless experience is all there is.

Yet in addition to this ‘ungraspability and unlocatabilty’ nature, emptiness is also about this maha sensation when a moment of luminous experience comes into being due to the inter-being and interdependency of everything asif the universe is doing the work and nothing ‘me’. When there is no sense of self, ‘Tong!’, the sound, the person, the stick, the bell, hitting, vibration of the air, ears...all come together as the moment of experience called 'sound'. The universe is giving its very best for this moment of experience to arise.

Also when experience is seen as the manifestation of dependent origination, there is a sensation of always right wherever and whenever is. A sensation of home everywhere yet no place can be called home.

Just a sharing.

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Chittamatra vs Madhyamika

Very good summary by Jared K Jones

-----------

To pull this out of a subthread from a different forum. My main teacher has an extensive background in the Zen tradition of Dogen (about 50 years), as well as 30 years in the Gelugpa and Tibetan Tantric traditions. So, what's the difference between Chittamatra and Madhyamika?

Within the Mahayana traditions of Asia, they are dominated by the writings of two main schools of thought - both originating in the Suttas and Sutras, but fully fleshed out in the 1st and 2nd century - Chittamatra and Madhyamika.

Chittamatra was enumerated by Vasubandhu, Asanga, Dignaga, and others and the Madhyamika was enumerated by Nagarjuna, Bhavaviveka, Buddhapalita, Chandrakirti, and others. Wikipedia has a pretty good record of the dates and major works of these yogi-scholars if you'd like to read their works.

Chittamatra said that the best method for getting at Emptiness (Sunyata) was to realize the conventional nature of mind: the non-duality of ”everything that appears in perception” with “the six senses.” In other words, the notion and direct perception that a sound, for example, only occurs when a valid basis (vibration in the air) meets a functioning organ (ear), and that gives rise to a consciousness (sound-consciousness).

The object, sense organ, and mind form one inseparable system. If you take away any component in the system, then nothing happens - no minds, no organs, and no objects. Hence, when a tree falls in the forest, no sound occurs if no ear organ and no sound-consciousness are present. Also, the mind is the aspect of reality providing identity, characteristics, and relationships to objects. So, mind plays a central creative role in your experience.

Like that, the early writers and commentators of Chittamatra said that it is okay to see mind (Awareness) as self-existent for a while because you are deconstructing everything else that appears. You are seeing the emptiness of all appearances.

At some point, seeing that all appearances are empty, you will also see that "that to which appearances appear" is also empty. The emptiness of awareness is your tathagatagarbha, your true nature, your Buddha nature, and the “face before you were born.” This is not mystical, nor paradoxical. It’s simply applying emptiness to the creative center of all experience: mind, cognition, awareness, knowing, or consciousness.

Ven. Dignaga uses various types of introspective-epistemological analysis to help get at emptiness. For example, he famously introduced the idea of Universals Vs. Specifics to the Buddhist discourse:

1. A word is a "Universal" because it applies to a universal category of things: "cow."

2. A specific instance of "cow" looks nothing like any other cow. When you look closely, each perception is utterly unique.

3. Not only that, what appears to your senses is constantly changing from moment to moment, so it can't even be called "self-similar" from one moment to the next (much less similar to other cows).

4. Further, you can't explain or make known the color of an orange to a blind man. Perceptions are actually utterly ineffable. What you perceive cannot be put into words.

5. Therefore, all language is inferential. The word and object have no fixed relationship. Words are learned and have an ambiguous relationship with objects of experience.

6. The word does not resemble nor infuse the perception with any new properties when applied to the perception. For example, the "chair" of a company does not resemble a chair nor is he or she infused with "chairness" when validly called a chair.

7. Words do not make know either specific instances nor universal categories. When you say "chair" you do not become aware of all chairs in the universe, nor do you become aware of all of the properties of any specific object.

8. Based upon all of this, how could the current object of perception be a chair or a cow in and of itself? Look at it - it's just the useful or utilitarian play of mind: we call an utterly unique, ineffable, unbounded, and constantly changing set of phenomena “a table” for a practical purpose - holding up our coffee mug.

Because objects aren't self-established, the subject also isn't self-established. The knower doesn't exist without the known. Awareness is always "awareness of" and never just "awareness." Therefore, consciousness is also interdependently arisen and empty of inherent existence. However, if you stop the process of non-dual inquiry too soon, you will arrive at an "Awareness-All-There-Isness" or a "Mind-Only" position. So, this is a big danger within the Chittamatra approach.

You see this error in the writings of many Zen adepts. The “Big Self,” the “Real Self,” ”You are the drop experiencing itself as the Ocean,” and “the Oneness” are nothing other than falling into the trap that Awareness gives rise to the universe, and therefore, Mind is all that exists. You are just making “I/mine” more subtle, without removing ignorance from the root. However, there is less chance of becoming a Nihilist with this approach.

Madhyamika comes in two main flavors - Svatantrika and Prasangika. Their pedagogies for getting at Emptiness/Sunyata involve logically deconstructing the various components or arrangements of phenomenon: parts-whole, one-many, cause-effect, and so on. The Svatantrika mainly uses syllogisms (If A = B then C) and posits that phenomena have "characteristic marks" or defining features prior to mental designation - i.e. dependent designation or prajñaptir upādāya.

Prasangika uses mainly reductio ad absurdum (logical consequences) to show that holding essentialist viewpoints always leads to logical impossibilities. For example, if you think the tree is permanent, then it must be unchanging. If it’s unchanging, then it can’t interact with light and appear to your eye consciousness. Therefore, if trees were permanent, they would be invisible.

Prasangikas also refute that phenomena have any defining features, properties, or characteristics whatsoever - they are utterly empty of self, at all levels. The most famous of the reductio-consequentialist masters is Ven. Nagarjuna. His most well-known quote is found at the beginning of the Mulamadyamikakarika - the Four Diamond Slivers (Nagarjuna's Tetralemma):

"Not from self,
Not from other,
Not from both,
Not without a cause (neither),
Does anything, anywhere, whatever arise."

He then goes on to extensively refute each of the four ways something might inherently arise by using the absurd logical consequences for each mode of inherent cause-and-effect: self, other, both, and neither. To take a practical example of how the Prasangika approach works, look at the below:

1. The chair is not something which pervades.
2. The chair is not among.
3. The chair is not the collection.
4. The chair is not outside the chair.

>If the chair pervades all the parts of the object, then we should have as many chairs as there are parts. If we cut it in half, we should have two chairs. This contradicts ordinary perception, so the thesis fails.

>If the chair is among the parts of the chair, we should be able to eliminate all the other parts and still have a chair. This contradicts ordinary perception, so the thesis fails.

>If the chair was all these parts collected together, then there could only be one chair in the world. Not only that, if it lost even a single atom, the chair should go out of existence. This contradicts ordinary perception, so the thesis fails.

>If the chair were outside the chair, then chairs should pop into and out of existence all over the place without reason and without relying upon parts. This contradicts ordinary perception, so the thesis fails. Like that, consequences are presented as refutations.

Prasangika posits full emptiness, in which all phenomena are empty of self at all possible levels: no inherent characteristics, no inherent absences, no inherent awareness, etc. To find a corollary in the Suttas, look up the Suñña Sutta. This is not unique to the Mahayana nor a fabrication of the minds of later Mahayana thinkers:


Like that, Madhyamika does not rely on recognizing the conventional nature of mind to give practitioners access to emptiness, and it does not have the danger of "Mind-Only" essentialism. On the other hand, it has a heavier danger of ontological, functional, and teleological Nihilism: you may wrongly decide that nothing exists; if you think things exist, you might wrongly think they exist but do not have any function; if they exist and function, you might wrongly feel they have no meaning or purpose.

You see this with many bad Tibetan Buddhists who turn emptiness into post-modernism or moral relativism, and then makes statements like, “Buddhism means you hold no views whatsoever, and you get to ‘skillfully’ do whatever you want. Nothing matters.” I see this a lot within bad Dzogchen, especially on the internet. This destroys the path and is vigorously refuted by all the great masters. This is a big danger with the Madhyamika approach, but there is less chance of becoming a Mind-Only essentialist.

I hope this helps - Ven. Mahasiddha Tilopa’s necklace pictured below.
 
 
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The Unbounded Field of Awareness
Also see: The Transient Universe has a Heart
Vipassana Must Go With Luminous Manifestation
The Unbounded Field of Awareness
Fully Experience All-Is-Mind by Realizing No-Mind and Conditionality
Exertion that is neither self-imposed nor imposed by others
Actual Freedom and the Immediate Radiance in the Transience




Thusness, 2013:

"there is a very intense and much deeper state i assure u...but there is clear understanding that the manifestation is it....however awareness is like an unbounded and limitless expanse field

the luminosity is intensely clear

the experience is like Non-Dual Awareness broke lose and exist as a unbounded FIELD

there is a difference in seeing sound and a hearer and realizing sound as awareness itself

u cannot focus and there cannot be any sense of effort
there cannot be any sense of boundaries

just itself

u must be very very stable and mature in the anatta state

and u cannot be in an enclosed room...

it is the effortlessness and crystal clear transparency and intensity of luminosity...

but duality must no more trouble the practitioner, phenomena is clearly understood as the radiance...so nothing is obscuring then in total effortless and emanation arises and the expanse just continues"

On how this differs from one mind:

"one mind is subsuming

therefore there is a sense of dual

in this case there isn't

it is like a drop of water landed on the surface of a clear ocean. the nature of water and ocean are one and the same...nothing containing anything

when sounds and music arise...they are like water and waves in ocean...everything is it"


.......................


Jackson Peterson wrote about Transparency, the experience and intensity of transparency is important (even though Jax is holding one mind view rather than anatta):

Transparency

When sitting, fully relaxed, with no mental topics in mind;  consciousness will become ever more clear and sharp.

At some point the material substance of your head will seem to become clear and transparent, leaving no sense of boundary to awareness.

Suddenly a shift can happen, such that instead of feeling like a located physical entity, your cognitive nature becomes crystal clear, empty space: a space that co-exists with phenomena, but is timeless and changeless, pervasive presence.

It’s like being a material entity located within a physical body, in which that localized entity suddenly transforms into space.  It’s like consciousness as space had contracted into being a localized contraction of aware space, that suddenly reverted to its status as being empty, borderless space.

In Dzogchen, this is called “zangtal” or penetrating transparency.

In this moment it feels like you are the empty space of the universe instead of being a localized “thing” in the universe. All material identifications and psychological self images vanish.

Imagine there is an infinite ocean of transparent, Clear Light Awareness; which can contract into ice-cube like spheres of localized consciousness.  But that contracted consciousness of Clear Light Awareness can suddenly revert to its uncontracted state, its “natural state”. 

Only then do the intrinsic wisdoms of the Clear Light, Natural State, fully unfold. 



-----------------

Daniel M. Ingram:

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../intelligence...

"So you have these two extremes - both of which I find pretty annoying (laughs) - and uhm, not that they are not making interesting points that counterbalance each other. And then, from an experiential point of view, the whole field seems to be happening on its own in a luminous way, the intelligence or awareness seems to be intrinsic in the phenomena, the phenomena do appear to be totally transient, totally ephemeral. So I would reject from an experiential point of view, something in the harshness of the dogma of the rigid no-selfists that can't recognise the intrinsic nature of awareness that is the field. If that makes sense. Cos they tend to feel there's something about that's sort of (cut off?)..."

Interviewer: "And not only awareness..."

Daniel: "Intelligence. Right, and I also reject from an experiential point of view the people who would make this permanent, something separate from, something different from just the manifestation itself. I don't like the permanence aspect because from a Buddhist technical point of view I do not find anything that stands up as permanent in experience. I find that quality always there *while there is experience.* Because it's something in the nature of experience. But it's not quite the same thing as permanence, if that makes sense. So while there is experience, there is experience. So that means there is awareness, from a certain point of view, manifestation - awareness being intrinsically the same thing, intrinsic to each other. So while there is experience, I would claim that element (awareness) is there - it has to be for there to be experience. And I would claim that the system seems to function very lawfully and it's very easy to feel that there's a sort of intelligence, ok, cool... ...the feeling of profundity, the feeling of miraculousness, the wondrous component. So as the Tibetans would say, amazing! It all happens by itself! So, there is intrinsically amazing about this. It's very refreshingly amazing that the thing happens, and that things cognize themselves or are aware where they are, manifestation is truly amazing and tuning into that amazingness has something valuable about it from a pragmatic point of view."

.......

5/24/2012 8:05 PM: John: But experientially same but just the degree of right understanding
5/24/2012 8:07 PM: John: Not exactly one mind
5/24/2012 8:07 PM: John: Do u feel everything as Self now?
5/24/2012 8:08 PM: John: As in that experience of I M powerfully present at this moment
5/24/2012 8:09 PM: Soh Wei Yu: yes presence, but as change
5/24/2012 8:11 PM: John: As if like Awareness clear and open like space, without meditation yet powerfully present and non-dual
5/24/2012 8:12 PM: John: Where the 4 Aspects of I M r fully experienced in this moment
5/24/2012 8:14 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Yeah
5/24/2012 8:14 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I think the four aspects is only fully experienced after nondual and anatta, especially effortlessness and no need to abide
5/24/2012 8:15 PM: John: This experience will become more and more powerful later yet effortless and uncontrieved
5/24/2012 8:17 PM: John: How so? If it is not correct insights and practice, how is it possible for such complete and total experience of effortless and uncontrieved Presence be possible?
5/24/2012 8:18 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I do not see it is possible without the proper insights and practice
5/24/2012 8:20 PM: Soh Wei Yu: In anatta every activity is it, is buddha nature, so no contrivance at all
5/24/2012 8:21 PM: Soh Wei Yu: No need to meditate to get anywhere
5/24/2012 8:21 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But meditation is still important to cultivate certain aspects like tranquility
5/24/2012 8:22 PM: John: Indeed and this is being authenticated by the immediate moment of experience. How could there be doubt abt it. The last trace of Presence must be released with seeing through the emptiness nature of whatever arises.
5/24/2012 8:22 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I see..
5/24/2012 8:25 PM: John: After maturing and integrating ur insights into practice, there must be no effort and action.... The entire whole is doing the work and arises as this vivid moment of shimmering appearance, this has always been what we always called Presence.

...

Thusness, 2012:

"Has awareness stood out? There is no concentration needed. When six entries and exits are pure and primordial, the unconditioned stands shining, relaxed and uncontrived, luminous yet empty. The purpose of going through the 7 phases of perception shift is for this... Whatever arises is free and uncontrived, that is the supreme path. Whatever arises has never left their nirvanic state... ... your current mode of practice [after those experiential insights] should be as direct and uncontrived as possible. When you see nothing behind and magical appearances are too empty, awareness is naturally lucid and free. Views and all elaborations dissolved, mind-body forgotten... just unobstructed awareness. Awareness natural and uncontrived is supreme goal. Relax and do nothing, Open and boundless, Spontaneous and free, Whatever arises is fine and liberated, This is the supreme path. Top/bottom, inside/outside, Always without center and empty (2-fold emptiness), Then view is fully actualized and all experiences are great liberation."
 
 
 
....
 
 
update: longer excerpt from john convos
 

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:39am UTC+10

 

jax must also know that the non-dual experience does not lost but become natural, spontaneous and the intensity of luminosity heightened. Anatta is to eliminate the trace to have total and vivid experience, not to hinder it.

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:41am UTC+10

 

there will come a time where awareness is like standing out and the clarity becomes unsurpassed it expanse without boundaries. This is very important.

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:42am UTC+10

 

That is the transparency of awareness expanse way beyond ...

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:43am UTC+10

 

This radiance can only arise in total effortlessness and spontaneity...

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:44am UTC+10

 

just like substantialist non-dual in perfection

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:46am UTC+10

 

what do u mean just like substantialist non-dual in perfection

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:46am UTC+10

 

it is very difficult to explain

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:47am UTC+10

 

in a mind body drop...there is no boundary..just pure sound, sensations...

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:48am UTC+10

 

rem the last post i wrote and u told me it is just like non-dual awareness?

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:49am UTC+10

 

u closed ur eyes and u said u experienced like substantialist non-dual awareness?

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:50am UTC+10

 

u mean then i fell asleep woke up etc?

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:50am UTC+10

 

no

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:51am UTC+10

 

i told u to contemplate about the 2 fold emptiness and i said emptiness has another meaning for me...then i wrote for u ...u said u followed and feel like being a substantial non-dual awareness?

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:51am UTC+10

 

yeah

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:52am UTC+10

 

then i told u i experience the void awareness

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:52am UTC+10

 

like snap out of the thought into the void awareness

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:52am UTC+10

 

then fell asleep but woke up due to sinking back to a mirror

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:52am UTC+10

 

yeah

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:52am UTC+10

 

there is nothing wrong with it...

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:54am UTC+10

 

there is a very intense and much deeper state i assure u...but there is clear understanding that the manifestation is it....however awareness is like an unbounded and limitless expanse field

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:54am UTC+10

 

the luminosity is intensely clear

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:55am UTC+10

 

so its like boundless but as manifestation

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:55am UTC+10

 

and vivid

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:55am UTC+10

 

not exactly

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:56am UTC+10

 

the experience is like Non-Dual Awareness broke lose and exist as a unbounded FIELD

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:57am UTC+10

 

there is a difference in seeing sound and a hearer and realizing sound as awareness itself

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:57am UTC+10

 

i think i have told u before

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:58am UTC+10

 

Awareness is like standing out

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:58am UTC+10

 

i see..

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:58am UTC+10

 

u cannot focus and there cannot be any sense of effort

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:58am UTC+10

 

there cannot be any sense of boundaries

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:59am UTC+10

 

does focusing spoil the experience?

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:59am UTC+10

 

just itself

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:59am UTC+10

 

yes it spoil the experience

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:59am UTC+10

 

u must be very very stable and mature in the anatta state

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:59am UTC+10

 

just like what i wrote in our blog

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 1:59am UTC+10

 

oic..

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:00am UTC+10

 

maybe taking lsd ppl experience that...lol

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:00am UTC+10

 

haha...

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:01am UTC+10

 

did i tell u what the dj X experienced after ayahuasca?

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:01am UTC+10

 

nope...who is dj X?

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:02am UTC+10

 

and u cannot be in an enclosed room...

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:02am UTC+10

 

X, dj X.. he's the 11th most famous dj in the world and got half a million fans in his facebook page lol. he is doing self inquiry and converses with me

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:02am UTC+10

 

oic, u cant experience that in enlosed room?

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:02am UTC+10

 

ic

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:04am UTC+10

 

he told me:

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:04am UTC+10

 

I had a guy, a professional, who guided me.. We sat and he guided me with a short meditation. After that, he asked me to drink the glass. He asked me to ask the plant to be kind and to thank her, which I did. The adrenaline was rushing through my body and I took a little moment with the glass in my hands and then took it. The taste was disgusting. Bitter, sour, I don't know. haha. Then, he guided me in a chakra meditation. He asked me to close my eyes and pointed that it would be good to keep my eyes closed as much as possible during the journey. So then we started, from the lowest chakra upwards. When we came to the heart chakra, I think almost half an hour after drinking, I noticed that it started. The blackness with my eyes closed started to get perspective and colors. It started to come to life. Very quickly then, it became very very intense, like being launched into a tunnel through space. With colors coming at me at an enormous speed. I also felt somewhat sick at that moment. The voice of the guy guiding me sounded like it was pitched down and vanished a bit to the background. From sitting in lotus position, I lied down on the bed, on my back. He continued with the meditation but I was completely taken by the experience and a bit uncomfortable. When he finished I asked him if he had an advice, how to get through this. He said: "Why? You don't need to do anything, just let it go.. Let it go." He turned on the music, I decided at that moment to completely let go and then the whole experience exploded into a beautiful journey. At that moment peace fell over me and the music started guiding me. There was almost no notion of the body already, everything was completely taking place on a screen, taking up the whole experience. I first was confronted with memories of my childhood, it showed me the moments that I felt lonely and not loved. All the love that lacked when I was a child, was cured and filled up at that moment. I started crying out of happiness. Crying so much, but tears of joy. Also the notion of time was getting less and less. It is very hard to say what happened when or how long it lasted. The music was essential in the experience. Music has got a whole new meaning. I have no words for how beautiful it was. Like it was telling the truth of the whole universe, without words, just resonating on a different level. Then for a moment, I felt like I was everything, the whole universe. I saw the night sky and there was absolutely no feeling of being a human being. It was grande. I felt energy rushing through the third eye, winding up, winding up and then releasing and exploding, receiving light. Bright light, with diamond-like reflections. Then another chakra in my belly started winding up and released, exploded and receiving bright light. So intense and full of love. Then all that exploded into full being-ness. An endless ocean of love. Ultimate happiness. This must have been the happiest moment of my life. There were no events at that moment. Just light and being and unconditional love. This was the climax of the experience. But it was not over yet. After that a whole story began which was being witnessed. For a moment I was experiencing being my father, my mother, my uncle, and going through a certain situation in their life. I also for a moment was a gorilla and a lion. Sometimes I remembered my question. "Who am I"? So I asked it, but when I asked it I got the answer: "Who wants to know?" I realized very well that the one that wants to know is that one that creates the suffering. That is the one that can't accept not knowing and always wants more. I felt that that was not me. At that moment I felt like a little chid who was constantly overruled by his big brother. But the plant was inviting the little child to come out to play and was unveiling the big brother's agenda. Every time I asked the question the plant corrected me and got a little bit upset for a moment. Then I realized who was asking and I surrendered again. I felt guided throughout the experience. Guided by the plant? A higher power? I don't know. Something was smiling at me. Letting me know that it was ok to let go. I also remember having died. I was lowered into a coffin with grey hair and my hands crossed on my chest. It was a very peaceful experience. Also I remember some moments from my birth, difficult moment. I felt that the plant was helping to resolve traumas. Sometimes I felt that it was focusing on the physical body. It would for example lift a leg, start shaking it very rapid and then released it. And later the other leg. Then an arm, the other arm. It was releasing energy. The my right eye would started tearing very much. Later on my left eye, and so on. Sometimes it would focus and a certain spot in the body where there was a stress spot. It would focus on it until the stress was released. And there would be no pain at that spot anymore. Sometimes the body started gaping very loud too. When the effects started to wear off, which was a slow process, I sometimes came back into the physical world for a moment and then got pushed back into it. But when my first thoughts came up, one of the first things that came up was a complete utter respect for this body. I was/am so thankful to the body for having gone through all those years of suffering and treating it badly with bad eating, smoking, drugs, alcohol etc. Also this experience which was intense for the physical body. I thanked it deeply for it and at that moment decided that I was going to treat the body like a temple. Treat it with complete respect. This was definitely the most profound experience of my life. The sense of self was gone mostly throughout the experience. After the experience it came back, but I feel like it has released a lot of negative energy and I have felt unconditional love like this for the first time. I will definitely do it again in the future as I truly think it can be of help on the path.

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:04am UTC+10

 

it is difficult to experience in an enclosed room unless u r in deep samadhi

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:04am UTC+10

 

oic..

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:05am UTC+10

 

is deep samadhi necessary or helpful

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:05am UTC+10

 

for this experience?

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:05am UTC+10

 

not exactly, it is the effortlessness and crystal clear transparency and intensity of luminosity...

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:08am UTC+10

 

but duality must no more trouble the practitioner, phenomena is clearly understood as the radiance...so nothing is obscuring then in total effortless and emanation arises and the expanse just continues

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:10am UTC+10

 

ic..

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:10am UTC+10

 

should i tell this to jax?

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:13am UTC+10

 

i m thinking how to tell him...since he just broke through...a person in such a state is difficult to turn back That is why i wrote in the post and said "it is empty"....and ask what does that emptiness mean

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:14am UTC+10

 

turn back to ?

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:14am UTC+10

 

substantial one mind?

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:15am UTC+10

 

but u're not asking him to turn back to one mind view right, just refining the anatta experience in certain way

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:15am UTC+10

 

from substantial non-dual awareness

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:16am UTC+10

 

it is different..if the intensity of experience is that strong

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:16am UTC+10

 

it is not easy to lead one with such intensity of experience with mere intellectual exchange

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:17am UTC+10

 

but i doubt without right view and anatta, one can reach that state

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:17am UTC+10

 

u mean that awareness field state?

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:18am UTC+10

 

yes...in experience it is like that

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:18am UTC+10

 

but u said its similar to substantial one mind right

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:18am UTC+10

 

so one mind people also experience it or not?

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:18am UTC+10

 

u don't get what i mean

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:19am UTC+10

 

one mind is subsuming

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:19am UTC+10

 

therefore there is a sense of dual

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:19am UTC+10

 

in this case there isn't

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:20am UTC+10

 

oic..

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:22am UTC+10

 

it is like a drop of water landed on the surface of a clear ocean. the nature of water and ocean are one and the same...nothing containing anything

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:24am UTC+10

 

when sounds and music arise...they are like water and waves in ocean...everything is it

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:25am UTC+10

 

when the intensity is amplified many folds, it will not be easy for a practitioner to overcome.

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:26am UTC+10

 

overcome?

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:26am UTC+10

 

so its like

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:26am UTC+10

 

one oceanic happening-awareness

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:27am UTC+10

 

?

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:32am UTC+10

 

hm...was reading what u send me about X's ayahuasca.

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:32am UTC+10

 

The intensity of experience is there.

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:34am UTC+10

 

yes oceanic happening-awareness

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:34am UTC+10

 

oic..

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:34am UTC+10

 

so is wilhem experience like what u said?

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:35am UTC+10

 

mine is very much under controlled...lol...the intensity is there

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:36am UTC+10

 

it is a very natural and effortless state

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:36am UTC+10

 

his is like out of control...lol

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:36am UTC+10

 

lol..

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:39am UTC+10

 

when the mind is so confused about the background and the phenomena, such intense experience will not arise unless probably with the help of such drug

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:39am UTC+10

 

oic..

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:41am UTC+10

 

but one is purified of the deep dualistic/inherent tendencies, the experience will surface and become a natural and effortless state.

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:42am UTC+10

 

ic..

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:42am UTC+10

 

there must not be any sense of twoness...just what is...and it must be completely effortless...spontaneous arising...

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:44am UTC+10

 

therefore u must spend quality hours in such non-dual mode in walking, seeing, tasting...no effort but fully just this dimensionless suchness as appearance

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:44am UTC+10

 

now u r having too much thoughts

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:46am UTC+10

 

oic..

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:50am UTC+10

 

I have told u in the post commenting the rainbow body: Now penetration of the 3 states is only supported by the strength of your view and realization, not by the intensity of your non-conceptual experience. 

 

[Soh: Referring to this - Rainbow Body and Thusness's Advice to Me]

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:52am UTC+10

 

ic..

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:53am UTC+10

 

btw u said focus will spoil the experience

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:53am UTC+10

 

that means it can only be experienced in a meditative setting?

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:53am UTC+10

 

cos daily life requires focus to do task isnt it

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:53am UTC+10

 

like right now dont u need some focus to see, type etc

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:55am UTC+10

 

no

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:56am UTC+10

 

there is no need for meditative setting...it is the result of the dissolution of deeply held tendencies. But u r not allowing the conditions to manifest

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:58am UTC+10

 

all will simply arise spontaneously ....it is u must be out and have quality experience on scenery, music, scent...etc...have a not so enclose and cooling environment...

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 2:59am UTC+10

 

yah just now i was walking outside awareness/experience is expansive and boundless but not sure if its like what u said

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:00am UTC+10

 

one way to help is to emanate out

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:00am UTC+10

 

what u mean by emanate out

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:01am UTC+10

 

means awareness kept expanding...

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:02am UTC+10

 

just keep practicing expanding...open, emanate

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:03am UTC+10

 

yes..

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:03am UTC+10

 

even in dream i experience that

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:03am UTC+10

 

then it becomes transparent and expansive and nondual

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:03am UTC+10

 

few days ago i also experience it

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:04am UTC+10

 

don't focus on the intensity of luminosity, but expand to dissolve the center, the core...keep expanding...the intensity of luminosity will naturally be there....not to focus on luminosity

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:04am UTC+10

 

its strange i dont know if what i experience is sleep paralysis... its just dark and i keep expanding until i feel like floaty

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:04am UTC+10

 

but later woke up

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:04am UTC+10

 

but theres this strange feeling like i'm going to fall off the bed or something, i think hallucination

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:04am UTC+10

 

yes in waking state is also needed

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:05am UTC+10

 

in waking state when walking outside its quite easy

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:05am UTC+10

 

like u said

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:06am UTC+10

 

at hm when u meditate...listen to music....musics that relates to the sound nature

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:07am UTC+10

 

oic..

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:10am UTC+10

 

anyway don't chase after experiences...sever the center. The purpose is to tell jax it is a refinement of his view so that he can perfect his non-dual state.

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:10am UTC+10

 

oic..

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:10am UTC+10

 

u tell him ah, i dunno how to tell him :P

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:13am UTC+10

 

yes when the time is right....

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:13am UTC+10

 

lol

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:13am UTC+10

 

lol

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:15am UTC+10

 

din has undergone so much confusion that now the refuge is in the Awareness...lol

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:16am UTC+10

 

lol

Soh Wei YuSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:16am UTC+10

 

its like what u said regarding fear of establishing view?

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:19am UTC+10

 

yes but because

 

 

John TanSunday, April 28, 2013 at 3:19am UTC+10

 

yes but because what that led him out of confusion is the understanding that all these are mind stories, so that becomes his outlet but it is also the condition that prevents his further seeking.


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