Discussions took place in the Awakening to Reality Discussion Group
In Anatta, it is realized that there is no 'the formless', there is only manifestation. Even when you shut eyes the sense of Mind as formless awareness is just another manifestation.
Manifestation - colors, sounds, sensations, tastes, touch, thoughts, are self-aware. There is absolutely nothing behind -- not even 'the formless'. No background at all. No awareness besides the seen, heard, cognized.
The formless you are describing is just the I AM. It is doubtless, certain, I call it certainty of being in my journal.
What is however erroneous is the view that it is an unchanging source, substance, substratum of forms. Or that it is a background. Or that it is inherent, unchanging.
Actually it is just another manifestation, no more different, not any more ultimate or special than a transient self luminous sight, sound, and so on.
The I AM only seem more grandiose than a transient sight, sound, thought, etc when anatta has not been realised. If anatta is realised, the same luminous taste is found and tasted directly in the entirety of transiency. There is no need to return to some formless. Nor is there some ultimate formless behind. Everything, all forms, fabric and textures are elevated to the same level as the same intensity of Presence is in everything. Plus it is realised how reifying awareness into a background, subject-action-object view of Presence-Awareness is erroneous from the first place. In seeing only the seen, never a seer, that is Presence (and same goes for all senses)
Then there is not the slightest concern or distinction over form and formless.
Very
few practitioners and teachers realise anatta even in Buddhism let
alone elsewhere, and I mean it. The more I look around the more
disappointed I become sometimes 🤣
Once it is realised they will stop singing songs about an ultimate awareness.
The closest is Dogen (soto zen) and Mahamudra.
Mahamudra teaching:
https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../self...
Lord Gotsangpa said:
"In general, the apparent myriad of phenomena is one’s own
mind. Since phenomena and emptiness have never been
abiding as two separate entities, there is no need to restrain
cognizance within."
Also:
"When there is an appearance of a form in the field of the eyes,
that appearance of form itself is one’s mind; the apparent
form and emptiness are not two. By resting gently right on
the form without grasping, subject and object become naturally
liberated. The same applies to sounds, smells, tastes,
textures, as well as mental occurrences: by resting on the
occurrence itself, it becomes self-liberated. That is to say,
instead of meditating on cognizance, by meditating without
grasping right on the outer objects of the six sense perceptions,
the six senses arise as meditation and enhancement
will ensue."
Aditya Prasad
The being is the nought is talking about formless presence, I AM
Mahayana view is about emptiness which is good, it is profound and nothing wrong. But im talking about experiential realization. Many talk about emptiness but end up reifying awareness. It becomes no different from advaita
im
referring to soto zen’s dogen and some of the old mahamudra texts as
being very clear. Whether today’s teachers are clear.. is another
matter. Some are and some arent
“yes.. i do have the answer to the meaning of life 🤣
but it is something everyone should discover, it's like everyone is
sleeping on a pillow that has a precious diamond which people didn't
notice and so they live in poverty and misery. it's not like i have it and you don't
what i can describe is in my day to day living, as it is seen that there is no 'I' as a seer, feeler, thinker, an agent an 'self' entity residing inside the body somewhere relating to an outside world, my experience is now constantly a state of non-division, there has not been a trace of the sense of self as a separate entity, no sense of separation at all, no sense of being an agent or a self..
what is experienced in the absence of a 'self' is a very marvellous, wondrous, vivid, alive world that is full of intense vividness, joy, clarity, vitality, and an intelligence that is operating as every spontaneous action (there is no sense of being a doer). there is a perfection and purity pervading everything in all directions... even the fly is marvellous, is beyond beautiful, it is perfection and pure. there is no negative emotions, no getting hung up in hopes and fears, only perfection and purity
by intensity i mean everything is literally sparkling with brilliance, a vividness, an aliveness, even the trees feel alive, the earth feels alive, and of course every cell of the body feels alive, this aliveness is not in any way bounded by a sense of self and there is no sense of separation with the whole universe. everything literally feels bright, luminous, and wonderful... like the sky is bluer than blue, the sound of raindrops are delightful and vivid, the smells and aromas... all the senses are heightened, intense, vivid. it's like being constantly on a psychedelic drug like ecstasy or LSD except sober and with no negative side-effects or mental impairments. this is not an altered state of consciousness, it is what consciousness is supposed to be experienced, it is what consciousness/the world is in its state of primordial purity. it is like someone who is blind is said to have a more acute sense of hearing as their attention is unhindered by the details of sight... all the five senses and even thoughts are experienced in its naturally heightened luminous intensity when the contracted energy of the illusion of being a 'self' is seen through and dissolved
this universe being experienced without a 'self' is experienced as centerless (no me at the center looking out at the world outside of myself), and boundless (literally immense, large, so large that it is infinite without boundaries), and there is a constant marvelling at the infinitude of the universe being experienced afresh at every moment in vivid clarity, such that life is never dull or boring, but is experienced and expressed to the fullest intensity and joy at each moment as if each moment is like the first time you are experiencing life, that sort of feeling of amazement at seeing a wonderful scenery for the first time in your life or experiencing something new in your life.. that amazement can become constant.
there is also not the slightest sense of a distance, for example, when looking at the 'faraway' tree or building, it is as if you are there, as if the tree or the building is closer than your heartbeat and your breath.. literally no distance at all. it is as if you are the whole world rather than merely an onlooker of the whole world, except even that is not quite correct, there is no 'you' yet there is a gapless intimacy with every person, thing and event, closer than close
the luminous world experienced in no-self and no-separation and in its infinitude is the meaning of life being revealed each moment again.. it is truly living life to the fullest without holding back, it is liberating, it is utmost joy and perfection.
i have been living like this for 8+ years but this year the enlightened state has deepened immensely. and i am far from the only one experiencing this
it is possible that after reading this you may suddenly remember having had a glimpse of this before... while watching the sunset, looking at nature, listening to music, dancing to the music... that moment of enjoying something so fully until the sense of self dissolves into the perfection of that moment of experience (of the sunset, the tree, the music, the dance...) and life and the world reveals a vivid wonderful intensity. most people can recall at least having such glimpses before, often spontaneously, but for me it is a constant state after realising and penetrating the illusion of 'self' thoroughly.
so yeah highly recommended 10/10. life is not meant to be lived in a state of misery
...
I enjoy describing my experience of life/universe that is experienced like a fairy tale like paradise, where the universe, even the trees and birds and sky take on an ambience of being like a wonderland, like you are in heaven. Paradise is not far away for anyone but here and now as this moment in time and place in space.. so life is lived abundantly by living and enjoying the here and now rather than in the clouds of illusion (primarily the mentally projected illusion of being a separate self, alienated, separated, fearful and lonely by being cut off from the actual world) along with “my problems” of the past and future, the obsessive thoughts and anxieties can be ended. Practical thoughts arise when necessary but most of the time there are no thoughts. This is why i recommend “the power of now” by eckhart tolle for a start as it has practical and meditative pointers tho there is more to it”
Gensha
Shibi once said, “The whole universe throughout all its ten directions
is the One Bright Pearl.” You need to clearly recognize the converse,
which is that the One Bright Pearl is the whole universe throughout all
its ten directions.
- Zen Master Dogen, https://www.thezensite.com/.../Shobogenzo/058jippo.pdf...
"Unless the fabric and texture of awareness as 'forms', as 'things' is sufficiently experienced, we might not be talking the same stuff. " - John Tan, 2007, http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../early...
Yes jonls, agree with the example u gave. A good one and propensities and deep conditioning are exchangeable terms.
There is also another ‘deep conditioning’ called cognitive obscuration in Buddhism. Let’s take awareness for example, when we first experienced the “I AM”, the mind very quickly ascribed all sort of attributes to that experience according to our stored information. This tendency to objectify is also part of deep conditioning.
It is odorless, formless, colorless, thoughtless and void of any attributes and we unknowingly objectified these attributes into an ‘entity’ and make it an eternal background or an emptiness void. When this is done, it prevents us from experiencing the color, texture, fabric and manifesting nature of awareness. Suddenly thoughts are being grouped into another category and disowned. In actual case, thoughts think and sound hears. The observer has always been the observed. In naked awareness, there is no splitting of attributes and objectification of these attributes into different groups of the same experience. So thoughts are not disowned and “impermanence nature” taken in wholeheartedly in the experience of no-self. ‘Impermanence’ is never what it seems to be, never what that is understood in conceptual thoughts. ‘Impermanence’ is not what the mind has conceptualized it to be. In non-dual experience, the true face of impermanence nature is experienced as happening without movement, change without going anywhere. This is the “what is” of impermanence. It is just so. big grin
- John Tan, 2007 https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../early...
(10:45 AM) Thusness: I read about the non-duality of what ken wilber wrote, very good...the description is really good about the mountain closer than the skin.
(10:45 AM) AEN: yea tat is like wot i experienced too last time.. the description
(10:45 AM) AEN: lol
(10:45 AM) AEN: the closer than skin one
(10:46 AM) Thusness: it is how deep the clarity is and the extent this experience is uninterrupted.
(10:46 AM) Thusness: yes.
(10:46 AM) AEN: icic
(10:46 AM) Thusness: but even then it cannot touch the slightest depth of what one to communicate in terms of 'Emptiness is Form'.
(10:46 AM) AEN: oic
(10:46 AM) AEN: how come
(10:47 AM) Thusness: it is difficult for me to tell u, that sort of description is good but it cannot tell the depth and intensity...i do not know how to describe it too. :)
(10:48 AM) Thusness: whatever that is said and described by him and steven or by me, is only the surface.
(10:48 AM) Thusness: what is awareness
(10:48 AM) Thusness: what is meant by more real than the real.
(10:48 AM) Thusness: what is the texture and fabric of awareness as form.
(10:49 AM) Thusness: all these terms and descriptions are meaningless unless one sees the depthlessness of it.
- 2007
“The
realization of the Buddhist patriarchs is perfectly realized real form.
Real form is all dharmas. All dharmas are forms as they are, natures as
they are, body as it is, the mind as it is, the world as it is, clouds
and rain as they are, walking, standing,
sitting, and lying down, as they are; sorrow and joy, movement and
stillness, as they are; a staff and a whisk, as they are; a twirling
flower and a smiling face, as they are; succession of the Dharma and
affirmation, as they are; learning in practice and pursuing the truth,
as they are; the constancy of pines and the integrity of bamboos, as
they are. Shobogenzo, Shoho-Jisso[199]”
That still sounds dualistic. Presence is not a container that 'allows' anything. Presence is simply anything and everything.
Presence
is just appearance. The so called formless is really another
appearance, another manifestation, not any different from the appearance
of a color, a sound.
A sound is not a sight, but a sound is a manifestation, a appearance. A sight is not a sound, but a sight is a manifestation, an appearance. A sensations is not a sound, but it is manifestation, appearance. The I AM is likewise just another appearance, it is of the Mind door and therefore you say it is not a sight, not a sound. It is formless because it is not visually seen nor auditorily heard (because it is the Mind door, not the visual or auditory sense door) but it is still a manifestation. But it is really just another appearance, a manifestation. You do not say Presence allows appearance, for Presence is just appearances in all its diversities
It
is always diverse, always differentiated, only the multiplicity being
intensely vivid, luminous, pure, but not some 'formless thing taking
shape as forms', that is substance view and treating awareness into some
pre-differentiated undifferentiated something taking form. That is
inherent view, Thusness Stage 4
The I AM is no different from a transient luminous thought, a transient luminous sound, a transient luminous sight, etc
In fact I AM is what John Tan calls 'non-conceptual Thought'
What you call formless is what I call 'I AM'
That
is precisely the illusion that I have seen through when I realised
Anatta in 2010 -- the illusion that there is a dreaming besides the
dream. That is precisely the delusion that I have seen through at that
moment (I was already in One Mind then). I
realised that in seeing, there is no seeing besides the seen, nor a
seer. I realised that in hearing, there is no hearing besides sound,
never a hearer. The whole subject-action-object structure collapses and
Buddha-nature and luminosity is realized to be just transience.
Your description is still Thusness Stage 4
Your
idea of Awareness as a basis is based on the notion of inherent
existence. There is no such inherently existing basis. Awareness does
not exist in and of itself, besides the 10,000 things, the
differentiations, the multiplicity
awareness
can be aware of itself, but it is just one manifestation or one face of
awareness. There are countless faces of awarenesses but eternalists
grasp at one face of awareness. All manifestations are in fact selfaware
when nondual and anatta is realised.
A rock is not self aware in the sense of being to perceive its surrounding environment like we do (plants however do have rudimentary awareness). However the way they manifest in our experience is self luminous.
Conventionally, before humans, of course there is a rock. The earth is a huge rock that supports the evolution of sentient beings. Or as Alan Watts say, the planet peoples.
Ultimately, a rock is merely conventionally designated and cannot be found to exist inherently even now, so how can we speak of its inherent existence in the past and future? It is not the case that being aware of a rock establishes its inherent existence. Even as you are seeing it, it is empty, there is no inherently existing rock
And
you may say when all five senses subsides and concepts cease there is
still that Presence (what I call I AM), that is just another
manifestation. Not some basis behind everything
The
very strong tendency to see One Mind as inherent can persist for people
who resided in the I AM/One Mind phase for many decades.
For example, Jackson Peterson is hopelessly stuck there because of his decades of conditioning.
John Tan was stuck in I AM for maybe 15 years and even after initial insight into no-self got stuck in one mind for some time, it was not easy for him to overcome the tendencies of perceiving inherently. It was easier for me as I was trained in right view from the start, so although there were some struggles it was much more smooth sailing than for others. It is a quantum shift of perception and realization that the inherent way of perceiving Awareness is just a conditioning, a fabricated view of what awareness/reality is, it is not the true face of reality. I estimate around 98% of so called 'enlightened gurus/practitioners' never got past the I AM/One Mind phase. This naturally reinforces the echo chamber of eternal awareness with very few people coming up to say "hey! there's another way of seeing things, your view is flawed"
When
five senses subside, and concepts subside, there is indeed still
Presence-Awareness. It is a sense of just Awareness, Presence,
Beingness, Existence, not inert. If you are in a sensory deprivation
chamber, and your mind is very quiet, does that mean you become
unconscious? No, there is still Mind (or what we call the 'I AM
Presence'). So it is not right to deny Mind. But Mind is another
manifestation.
Yes
the clarity radiance of rigpa. But i dont use these terms since they
pertain to Dzogchen. But all traditions do talk about it. We can use a
more neutral term like “luminous presence”. The maturity of rigpa at
third stage of thodgal is the realization of emptiness while the initial recognition of rigpa is the recognition of unfabricated clarity.
Notions that presence awareness remains always unchanged is an eternalist view, i do not hold such views. It is possible to be constantly aware and experience clear light clarity in sleep but this is a straining and dangerous practice.
I
do not need to hold the notion that awareness is always unchangingly
present. Many traditions including some buddhist traditions hold it to
be so. Madhyamika allows for gaps of unconsciousness. Gelug explains the
clear light to be a stream that is uninterrupted,
but not unchanging. Non buddhist teachings like actual freedom say that
consciousness is simply a waking state, and after death there is no
more consciousness. Buddhism does not accept this as we posit rebirth,
and that the stream of consciousness continues to manifest depending on
karmic conditions. However there is no need to reify awareness into some
unchanging entity or host that transmigrates.
Look at dogen’s explanation of the inseparability of mind and phenomena, he does not posit some unchanging host transcending phenomena. His views on this matter is similar to mine
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../my-opinion-on...
Theravada
holds that nirodha samapatti is an unconscious state but there were
other old and extinct “hinayana” traditions that held the notion that
some form of subtle processes of consciousness is present there
As for One Mind, it is something else
One
Mind means Awareness is now realised to be inseparable with everything,
everything are mere modulations of the one awareness that remains
unchanged while everything is expressing in this vast/limitless field of
awareness. Awareness and perceptions are inseparable, yet not equal, since awareness is unchanging while perceptions come and go.
This is the delusion that I have seen through in October 2010 while contemplating on Bahiya Sutta. The whole framework of subject-action-object finally collapsed and it is realised there is never an 'awareness' or 'seeing' in and of itself besides seen, heard, sensed, cognized.. all self-luminously happening without an agent or a background or even a 'one mind manifesting as...'
However it is not a formless and spaceless metaphysical substratum behind phenomena but is the boundless luminous world itself
The stillness free of any center or identity is both still and silent, equanimous and unpertubable.
The Buddha said, I dwell in safety, fearlessness and intrepidity. (which was born out of his knowledge and confidence in what he has realized)
There is not however some unchanging basis that is temporarily modulating into temporal forms. Not at all.
There is just being time, temporality is buddha nature
John Tan, 2009:
I think realization and development will eventually reach the same destination.
A practitioner that experience the “Self” will initially treat
1.The “Source as the Light of Everything”.
then
2. He/she will eventually move to the experience that the “Light is really the Everything”.
In the first case, the Light will appear to be still and the transience appears to be moving. Collapsing of space and time will only be experienced when one resides in Self. However if the mind continues to see the 'Light' as separated from the 'Everything' , then realization will appear to be apart from development.
In the second case when we experience the “Light is really the Everything”, then Everything will be experienced as manifesting yet not moving. This is the experience of wholeness and completeness in an instantaneous moment or Eternity in a moment. When this experience becomes clear in practice, then witness is seen as the transience. Space and time will also collapse when we experience the completeness and wholeness of transience. An instantaneous moment of manifestation that is complete and whole in its own also does not involve movement and change (No changing thing, only change). Practicing being 'bare' in attention yet at the same time noticing the 3 characteristics will eventually bring us to this point.
However what has a yogi overcome when moving from case 1 to 2 and what exactly is the cause of separation in the first place? I think realizing this cause is of utmost importance for solving the paradox of realization and development.
Ted Biringer says:
While it may be contrary to the suggestions of many that claim to represent Zen or Dogen, true nature, according to the classic Zen records (including Shobogenzo) is ever and always immediately present, particular, and precise. Notions or assertions suggesting that Zen is somehow mysterious, ineffable, or inexpressible are simply off the mark. The only place such terms can be accurately applied in Zen is to definite mysteries, particular unknowns, and specific inexpressible experiences. Indeed, in Zen, the terms definite, particular, and specific accurately characterize all dharmas. Dogen’s refrain, ‘Nothing in the whole universe is concealed’ means exactly what it says; no reality is the least bit obscure or vague. To emphasize this truth, the assertion that ‘real form is all dharmas’ runs like a mantra throughout Shobogenzo, for example:
“The realization of the Buddhist patriarchs is perfectly realized real form. Real form is all dharmas. All dharmas are forms as they are, natures as they are, body as it is, the mind as it is, the world as it is, clouds and rain as they are, walking, standing, sitting, and lying down, as they are; sorrow and joy, movement and stillness, as they are; a staff and a whisk, as they are; a twirling flower and a smiling face, as they are; succession of the Dharma and affirmation, as they are; learning in practice and pursuing the truth, as they are; the constancy of pines and the integrity of bamboos, as they are. Shobogenzo, Shoho-Jisso[199]”
In light of Shobogenzo’s (hence Zen’s) vision of existence-time (uji), existence (ontology; being) and time are not-two (nondual); dharmas are not simply existents in time, they are existents of time, and (all) time is in and of existents (i.e. dharmas). In short, dharmas do not exist independent of time, and time does not exist independent of dharmas. On a corollary note, since (all) existence demonstrates the quality of ‘impermanence,’ time too is impermanent. In Zen the nonduality of impermanence and time is treated in terms of ‘ceaseless advance’ or ‘ever passing’ – ‘ceaseless’ and ‘ever’ connoting ‘permanence’ or ‘eternity,’
‘advance’ and ‘passing’ indicating ‘impermanence’ or ‘temporal’ (temporary). Accordingly, ‘impermanence’ is ‘permanent’ and ‘change’ is ‘changeless’ – existence-time ever-always (eternally) advances (changes).[92] Dogen’s vision of reality exploits the significance of this to the utmost, unfolding its most profound implications with his notion of ‘the self-obstruction of a single dharma’ or ‘the total exertion of a single dharma’ (ippo gujin). This notion reveals a number of important implications concerning the nature of existence-time; two of which are: Each and all dharmas reveal, disclose, or present the whole universe (the totality of existence-time). Each and all dharmas are inherently infinite and eternal.
Biringer, Ted. Zen Cosmology: Dogen's Contribution to the Search for a New Worldview (p. 34). ZazensatioN. Kindle Edition.
If
we are thus trapped in time, how can we escape? The paradoxical nondual
solution is to eliminate the dichotomy dialectically by realizing that I
am not in time because I am time, which therefore means that I am free
from time.
Much of our difficulty in understanding time is due to the unwise use of spatial metaphors -- in fact, the objectification of time requires such spatial metaphors -- but in this case another spatial metaphor is helpful. We normally understand objects such as cups to be "in" space, which (as explained above in relation to time) implies that in themselves they must have a self-existence distinct from space. However, not much reflection is necessary to realize that the cup itself is irremediably spatial. All its parts must have a certain thickness, and without the various spatial relations among the bottom, sides, and handle, the cup could not be a cup. Perhaps one way to express this is to say that the cup is not "in" space but itself is space: the cup is "what space is doing in that place," so to speak. The same is true for the temporality of the cup. The cup is not an atemporal, self-existing object that just happens to be "in" time, for its being is irremediably temporal. The point of this is to destroy the thought-constructed dualism between things and time. When we wish to express this, we must describe one in terms of the other, by saying either that objects are temporal (in which case they are not "objects" as we usually conceive of them) or, conversely, that time is objects -- that is, that time expresses itself in the manifestations that we call objects. Probably the clearest expression of this way is given by Dōgen: "The time we call spring blossoms directly as an existence called flowers. The flowers, in turn, express the time called spring. This is not existence within time; existence
p. 19
The Mahāyāna Deconstruction of Time
itself is time."[20] This is the meaning of his "being-time" (uji):
"Being-time" means that time is being; that is, "Time is existence, existence is time." The shape of a Buddha-statue is time.... Every thing, every being in this entire world is time.... Do not think of time as merely flying by; do not only study the fleeting aspect of time. If time is really flying away, there would be a separation between time and ourselves. If you think that time is just a passing phenomenon, you will never understand being-time.[21]
Time "flies away" when we experience it dualistically, with the sense of a self that is outside and looking at it. Then time becomes something that I have (or do not have), objectified and quantified in a succession of "now-moments" that cannot be held but incessantly fall away. In contrast, the "being-times" that we usually reify into objects cannot be said to occur in time, for they are time. As Nāgārjuna would put it, that things (or rather "thingings") are time means that there is no second, external time that they are "within."
This brings us to the second prong of the dialectic. To use the interdependence of objects and time to deny only the reality (svabhāva) of objects is incomplete, because their relativity also implies the unreality of time. Just as with the other dualities analyzed earlier in section II, to say that there is only time turns out to be equivalent to saying that there is no time. Having used temporality to deconstruct things, we must reverse the analysis and use the lack of a thing "in" time to negate the objectivity of time also: when there is no "contained," there can be no "container." If there are no nouns, then there can be no temporal predicates because they have no referent. When there are no things which have an existence apart from time, then it makes no sense to speak of" them" as being young or old: "so the young man does not grow old nor does the old man grow old" (Nāgārjuna).[22] Dōgen expressed this in terms of firewood and ashes:
... we should not take the view that what is latterly ashes was formerly firewood. What we should understand is that, according to the doctrine of Buddhism, firewood stays at the position of firewood.... There are former and later stages, but these stages are clearly cut.[23]
Firewood does not become ashes; rather, there is the "being-time" of firewood, then the "being-time" of ashes. But how does such "being-time" free us from time?
Similarly, when human beings die, they cannot return to life; but in Buddhist teaching we never say life changes into death.... Likewise, death cannot change into life.... Life and death have absolute existence, like the relationship of winter and spring. But do not think of winter changing into spring or spring into summer.[24]
Because life and death, like spring and summer, are not in time, they are in themselves timeless. If there is nobody who lives and dies, then there is no life and death -- or, alternatively, we may say that there is life-and-death in every moment, with the arising and disappearance of each thought, perception, and act. Perhaps this is what Heraclitus meant when he said that "both life and
p. 20
LOY
death are in both our living and dying."[25] Certainly it is what Dōgen meant when he wrote that we must realize that nirvāṇa is nothing other than life-and-death, for only then can we escape from life and death.
- Zen master David Loy, and Zen master Dogen http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../the-mahayana...
I
am exploring the implications and ramifications of time, which is
germane to the awareness of ‘being’. Through pure contemplation,
awareness happens – not that there is an ‘I’ to be aware – awareness
happens of itself. There is a realisation akin to that of ‘me’ having
not happened yet ... and time seems to have come to a halt. As time
stopping is patently absurd, it is worthy of further investigation. Time
is an observable fact: the clock measures the hours, the day becomes
night, a leaf falling from a tree takes time to reach the ground. Yet,
psychologically speaking, does time exist? Many philosophers have said
it does not, but I demur. Something does happen with time, subjectively,
when this moment lives me – instead of ‘me’ living in the present – but
what is it that happens? Is this moment actually timeless as some say
that it is?
Time has no duration when the immediate is the ultimate and the relative is the absolute. This moment takes no interval at all to be here now. Thus it appears that it is as if nothing has occurred, for not only is the future not here, but the past does not exist either. If there is no beginning and no end, is there a middle? There are things happening, but nothing has happened or will happen … or so it seems. Only this moment exists. This moment has no term, it takes no time at all to occur … which gives rise to the inaccurate notion that it is timeless. This is an institutionalised delusion, for it stems from the egocentric feeling that ‘I’ am Immortal, that ‘I’ am Eternal.
Apperception – which is the mind’s perception of itself reveals that this moment is hanging in eternal time … just as this planet is hanging in infinite space. This moment and this place are in the realm of the infinitude of this actual physical universe. This moment is perennial, not timeless. I am perpetually here – for the term of my natural life – as this moment is; I am not Eternally Present. It is the universe that is eternal … not me. As one is the universe experiencing itself as a sensate human being, any ‘I’ - always on the look-out for self-aggrandisement – grabs the universe’s eternity for itself. Also, what helps to create the feeling that the present is timeless is that human beings – as an identity – are normally out of this universe’s eternal time. Yet time is as intimate as this body being here now at this moment. It is so intimate that I – as a body only – am not separate from it. Whereas ‘I’, as a human ‘being’, have separated ‘myself’ from eternal time by being an entity. To be an ontological ‘being’ is to mistakenly take this body being here as containing an ‘I’, a psychological or psychic entity. To ‘be’ is to take this moment of being alive personally … as being proof of ‘my’ subjective existence. ‘I’ am an illusion; if ‘I’ think and feel that ‘I’ do exist, then ‘I’ am outside of eternal time. ‘I’ am forever complaining that there is ‘not enough hours in the day’, or ‘I am always running out of time’, or ‘I am always catching up with time’, or ‘I am always behind time’. All this activity is considered ‘normal’, as it is the common experience of humankind. (...)
But I am supremely blasé about the opinion of others, for their ‘truths’ do not work ... they do not live in peace and tranquillity. They do not experience the perpetual purity of this moment of being alive; a purity welling-up in all directions from the vast, immeasurable stillness of the infinitude of this universe. They remain ignorant of the excellence of the absence of ‘being’. In short, their ‘truths’, their philosophies on life, do not work. The criterion of a fact is that it works, it produces results. Because I live here, where the immediate is the ultimate and the relative is the absolute, I have never known sorrow or malice. All my thoughts and deeds are benign, for maleficence does not exist where time has no duration.
By living the fact that ‘I’ am not actual, evil has ceased to be. Richard’s Journal, 1997, Article Sixteen
- Actual Freedom Richard http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/.../selectedw.../sw-time.htm
There is something precious in living itself. Something beyond compare. Something more valuable than any “King’s ransom”. It is not rare gemstones; it is not singular works of art; it is not the much-prized bags of money; it is not the treasured loving relationships; it is not the highly esteemed Blissful States Of ‘Being’ ... ... it is not any of these things usually considered precious. There is something ultimately precious. It is the essential character of the infinitude of the universe … which is the life-giving foundation of all that is apparent. That something precious is me as-I-am ... me as I actually am as distinct from ‘me’ as ‘I’ really am. I am the universe’s experience of itself. The limpid and lucid perfection and purity of being here now, as-I-am, is akin to the crystalline perfection and purity seen in a dew-drop hanging from the tip of a leaf in the early-morning sunshine; the sunrise strikes the transparent dew-drop with its warming rays, highlighting the flawless correctness of the tear-drop shape with its bellied form. One is left almost breathless with wonder at the immaculate simplicity so exemplified ... and everyone I have spoken with has experienced this impeccable purity and perfection in some way or another at varying stages in their life. Is it not impossible to conceive – and just too difficult to imagine – that this is one’s essential character? One has to be daring enough to live it ... for it is both one’s audacious birth-right and adventurous destiny.
When one lives the magical perfection of this purity twenty-four-hours-a-day; when one has ceased being ‘I’ and is being genuine, one can see clearly that there is no separation between me and that something which is precious. The purity of life emerges from the perfection that wells up constantly due to an immense stillness which is utterly immense in its scope and magnitude. This stillness of infinitude is that something which is precious. It is the life-giving foundation of all that is apparent. This stillness happens as me. This stillness is my essential disposition, for it is the principle character, the intrinsic basis of everything. It is this universe at its genesis. It is not, as it might commonly be supposed, at the centre of everything ... there is no centre here. This stillness, which is everywhere all at once, is the be all and end all of life itself. I am the universe experiencing itself as a sensate, reflective human being. Richard’s Journal, 1997, Article Twenty-five
- http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/.../sw-actualfreedom.htm
There is another perspective on time, which is from the perspective of dependent designation and emptiness. But I shall digress
You are talking about designation, which is the province of madhyamika.
However I am pointing out the direct insight of anatta into total exertion. Then there is boundless (and centerless) space and unlimited time, where the ten directions and three times are seamlessly exerted and consumed as one. With no trace of “you” at all there is also no trace of a noumenon, just immense, boundless temporal universe in its radiance, great and without boundary nor a center. It is not some formless absolute but the boundless, marvellous and luminous world of forms, colors, sounds, textures, fabric, smells, and so on with nothing behind or beyond.
By
space i do not mean without objects. I mean boundlessness of the
universe. Unlimited time is the “eternity in a moment”, it’s like being
in the zone of the actual with no sensation of time passing away, plus
total exertion of the three times
Kyle Dixon wrote in reddit a year ago on the Madhyamaka perspective of time:
Nāgārjuna devotes an entire chapter to "time" in his Mulamadhyamakakarika, offering three different arguments against time.
The first:
Three arguments regarding time are presented. The first argument is a reprise of the production argument and relies on the common-sense view that time is split into past, present and future. Nagarjuna argues if the "parts" of time have own-being, the conception of time quickly loses its coherence. If "the past" is considered to produce "the present" and "the future," the latter two parts would be already "in" the past and could therefore not be properly said to have separate being. On the other hand, if the present and the future are separate from the past, then their very unconnectedness leaves them uncaused, independent and without reference to the past. But since the very notions of present and future imply a relation to the past, this is self-contradictory. Therefore, the present and future do not exist. Neither identity with nor difference from the past is sufficient to establish the reality of the present and future. In a similar fashion, the independence of any of the parts of time can be attacked on the basis of their inseparability and necessary reference to each other. The past, for example, can not be independent because it is nonsensical if it does not terminate in the present and future.
The second:
...if time is acknowledged to be continuously fleeting, there are no absolute static components of it that can be experienced (or, perhaps, "grasped" by the mind). If we propose, as the Abhidharmic metaphysicians held, that there can be a "static moment" of time, it would no longer count as time. Time in and of itself can never be grasped.
The third:
The third and final argument shows that time can not be considered to be a self-existing thing that is somehow not dependent on other existing objects. This is because, as Nagarjuna has shown, there are no independent "objects" in the world, nor could time be itself truly independent as long as it remained defined by its relation to such supposed entities. To place the argument in more contemporary terms, time is not a self-existing substratum or arena in which equally independent things endure or independent events occur.
This third argument is the most stand-out. Nāgārjuna essentially says that our perception of time is predicated upon our perception of objects, however since objects cannot actually be found when sought due to their inability to withstand keen scrutiny, time is a misconception and is a figment of delusion.
Source: https://www.reddit.com/.../com.../6xvkdx/nagarjuna_and_time/
On MMK contemplations:
[10:52 AM, 7/10/2019] John Tan: U must also understand how does it release the mind from what sort of negative emotions experientially.
[10:53 AM, 7/10/2019] John Tan: What good it has in understanding this and how it gradually change u ...not like magic suddenly u r freed.
[10:54 AM, 7/10/2019] John Tan: Anatta and direct insight has that sudden impact however later u will still need to stabilize these insights
The
timeless presence must be understood as the very impermanence itself,
manifesting yet without a sense of time passing by or moving. It is not
to be misunderstood as a metaphysical, changeless, atemporal, inherently
existing substance/source/substratum/noumenon/etc.
The
I AM people and the one mind people all talk about timeless presence.
Their timeless presence is a metaphysical presence, unchanged by
temporality, noumenal and inherently existing substance. That is seen
through in anatta, and therefore it is being-time, and boundless and
centerless sensate universe
Most
importantly, presence is the world/appearance/time, otherwise it is
still not anatta. It is the radiant world/appearance/time appearing
intimately without separation and boundary and self/Self
Yes
•
[Richard]: ‘I am speaking of the immediate perception, of this body and
that body and every body and of the mountains and the streams and of
the trees and the flowers and of the clouds in the sky by day and the
stars in the firmament by night and so on
and so on ad infinitum, without the affective faculty operating ...
which reveals actuality in all its purity and perfection. This applies
not only to ocular perception but also to cutaneous perception, to
gustatory perception, to olfactory perception, to aural perception ...
and even to proprioceptive perception, for that matter. There is no
mystery where there is such direct perception of actuality as described
... all is laid open, as it already always has been open just here right
now all along, because nothing is ever hidden. One walks through the
world in wide-eyed wonder simply marvelling at being here doing this
business called being alive on this verdant and azure paradise called
planet earth. This is what innocence looks like’.
As immediate, direct perception (sensuous perception) does not involve either the affective faculty or the cognitive function the thinker (‘I’ as ego) and the feeler (‘me’ as soul) do not get a look-in ... hence I call this direct perception ‘apperception’ (perception unmediated by either ‘self’ or ‘Self’). Thus what I am is this flesh and blood body being apperceptively aware (sans ‘I’ as ego and ‘me’ as soul) ... which means that the actuality of the physical can indeed be known, each moment again, day after day.
I do not know if I can put it more briefly or succinctly than this.
*
Presencing is fully sensate and manifest.. fully engaged without anything hiding behind
Only the dependent designation and emptiness is missing above
Presence is time is things
RICHARD:
Perhaps the most clarification is to be found in the very first words
on the very first page of The Actual Freedom Web Site. Vis.:
• ‘Actual Freedom ... A New and Non-Spiritual Down-to-Earth Freedom’.
For example, the word ‘apperception’, as it is extensively used on The Actual Freedom Web Site, is not synonymous with the word ‘saksin’ which is sometimes translated into English as ‘the watcher’ ... apperception occurs when identity, by whatever name, is temporarily absent – as in a pure consciousness experience (PCE) – or permanently extinguished – as in an actual freedom from the human condition – and is best explained as consciousness being aware of being conscious (rather than the normal ‘I’ being aware of ‘me’ being conscious). Vis.:
• ‘apperception: the mind’s perception of itself’ (Oxford Dictionary).
Put simply: apperception is direct perception (perception unmediated by any identity whatsoever) which is the same thing as saying direct sensation – be it ocular sensation, cutaneous sensation, gustatory sensation, olfactory sensation, aural sensation or even proprioceptive sensation – because in the PCE, and in an actual freedom, only the sensate world exists in all its splendour and brilliance.
Thought may or may not be operating as required by the circumstances.
Second, the word ‘sensuous’ was apparently introduced into the English language to avoid certain associations with the existing word ‘sensual’ – the sensual experience is typically appetitive whereas the sensuous experience is typically aesthetic – but as ‘the enticement of sensation’ (aka hedonism) is totally non-existent in the PCE, and in an actual freedom, the distinction between the two words is only necessary when discussing with a person in whom the instinctual passions are still extant.
For an actualist it is not ‘odd to speak of sensuousness at all’ – and neither is ‘immediate sensuality’ contradictory – because one is referring to the unmediated sensate experiencing in this actual world (the world of this body and that body and every body; the world of the mountains and the streams; the world of the trees and the flowers; the world of the clouds in the sky by day and the stars in the firmament by night and so on and so on ad infinitum).
But it probably would be odd and/or contradictory for a person in whom perception is mediated by the ‘saksin’ or the ‘light-of-lights’ and any other similar spiritual entity inside the flesh and blood body.
You don't have direct perception of actuality?
Direct
perception is constant here. Direct, immediate, nondual, gapless,
intense, luminous, vivid, alive, etc etc... all descriptions pale in
comparison to the 24/7 wonder of being alive in a marvellous and
sparkling and boundless and centerless universe
What mystery?
What Richard is saying is that there is no background, no hidden noumenon, no substratum, no self/Self.
This is no different from Dogen's "nothing in the universe is hidden" or "nothing in the universe is concealed"
Only when one is operating under the delusion that 'Awareness' or 'Mind' has a hidden substance that one perceives hidden substances and entities. Insight reveals that no such hidden background or entities exist, any more than 'weather' refers to some hidden substance or entity. 'Weather' is really just a label for the rain falling, the sun shining, the wind blowing, the clouds forming, and when we say 'the rain is falling', the 'rain' is none other than the 'falling', 'the wind is blowing' -- wind is none other than blowing, there are no entities, agents, involved at all
In
seeing there is just scenery, no seer, seeing is just colors. In
hearing there is just sounds, no hearer, hearing is just sounds. Just
another label for sound. The notion of hidden substances is demonstrably
false and erroneous and takes some investigation to see through. Then
gapless, direct, immediate perception of actuality will become natural,
effortless, ongoing around the clock
Zen Master Shinshu Roberts wrote the following,
“Immediate Present, Ultimate Dharma
Since our activity is not a progression from delusion to enlightenment made solely by the independent self, Dogen defines the first thought of practice as 'immediate present ultimate Dharma' or genjokoan: the presence and perfection of all dharmas as they are in the here-and-now.'
Hee-Jin Kim further explains the meaning of genjokoan: 'It does not suggest an evolutionary ascent from hidden-ness to manifestation, or from imperfection to perfection, or conversely, an emanational descent from one to many, or from reality to appearance. Rather, things, events, beings are already unmistakably what they truly are; what is more, they are vibrant, transparent, and bright in their as-they-are-ness.'”
“In
Dogen’s view, the only reality is reality that is actually experienced
as particular things at specific times. There is no “tile nature” apart
from actual “tile forms,” there is no “essential Baso” apart from actual
instances of “Baso experience.” When Baso sits in zazen, “zazen”
becomes zazen, and “Baso” becomes Baso. Real instances of Baso sitting
in zazen is real instances of Baso and real instances of zazen – when
Baso eats rice, Baso is really Baso and eating rice is really eating
rice.” - Ted Biringer, https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../zazen...
- Participant G The world of forms, as I see it, has a basis - the formless. These two are co-dependent. Just like clay is the basis of pots and mugs. But this basis of form can only be beholded because there is that which is the other side of such formless basis. Not the world of forms, which is downstream, but the opposite of any mode of existence, which is upstream of it. Nothing can be said about it because it is far more removed from conceptual thinking then the formless. Nonetheles it is the closest and the one that could not be lacking.
In Anatta, it is realized that there is no 'the formless', there is only manifestation. Even when you shut eyes the sense of Mind as formless awareness is just another manifestation.
Manifestation - colors, sounds, sensations, tastes, touch, thoughts, are self-aware. There is absolutely nothing behind -- not even 'the formless'. No background at all. No awareness besides the seen, heard, cognized.
Participant G />
Participant G Soh,
suppose, just as a play of imagination, that there was absolute void,
vacuum, nothingness. Of course this is just a conceptual game, for if
there is that that could imagine such scenario then obviously there
already is something. Now.... this non-imaginable void suddenly turns
into "something". I am calling this "something", anything, as the
formless basis of form.
Participant G />
Participant G The
moment you negate such formless basis, you are negating a form, a
conceptual "thing". What is the form of being? Of existence?
What is however erroneous is the view that it is an unchanging source, substance, substratum of forms. Or that it is a background. Or that it is inherent, unchanging.
Actually it is just another manifestation, no more different, not any more ultimate or special than a transient self luminous sight, sound, and so on.
The I AM only seem more grandiose than a transient sight, sound, thought, etc when anatta has not been realised. If anatta is realised, the same luminous taste is found and tasted directly in the entirety of transiency. There is no need to return to some formless. Nor is there some ultimate formless behind. Everything, all forms, fabric and textures are elevated to the same level as the same intensity of Presence is in everything. Plus it is realised how reifying awareness into a background, subject-action-object view of Presence-Awareness is erroneous from the first place. In seeing only the seen, never a seer, that is Presence (and same goes for all senses)
Then there is not the slightest concern or distinction over form and formless.
Once it is realised they will stop singing songs about an ultimate awareness.
The closest is Dogen (soto zen) and Mahamudra.
Mahamudra teaching:
https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../self...
Lord Gotsangpa said:
"In general, the apparent myriad of phenomena is one’s own
mind. Since phenomena and emptiness have never been
abiding as two separate entities, there is no need to restrain
cognizance within."
Also:
"When there is an appearance of a form in the field of the eyes,
that appearance of form itself is one’s mind; the apparent
form and emptiness are not two. By resting gently right on
the form without grasping, subject and object become naturally
liberated. The same applies to sounds, smells, tastes,
textures, as well as mental occurrences: by resting on the
occurrence itself, it becomes self-liberated. That is to say,
instead of meditating on cognizance, by meditating without
grasping right on the outer objects of the six sense perceptions,
the six senses arise as meditation and enhancement
will ensue."
![Self-Liberation by Khamtrul Rinpoche III](https://external.fsin1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQCO5nFwlhFveaAK&w=98&h=98&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shambhala.com%2Fmedia%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct%2Fcache%2F1%2Fimage%2F560x800%2F9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95%2F9%2F7%2F9781559394376_1.png&cfs=1&sx=0&sy=0&sw=560&sh=560&_nc_hash=AQCKMuNh51t5HX3y)
awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com
Self-Liberation by Khamtrul Rinpoche III
Self-Liberation by Khamtrul Rinpoche III- Aditya Prasad Why Mahamudra and Soto Zen in particular? How does this differ from the general Mahayana view that emptiness is form and form is emptiness? Or even:
"The being is the nought and the nought is the being..." -- Azriel of Gerona, Kabbala mystic
The being is the nought is talking about formless presence, I AM
Mahayana view is about emptiness which is good, it is profound and nothing wrong. But im talking about experiential realization. Many talk about emptiness but end up reifying awareness. It becomes no different from advaita
Participant G />
Participant G But you seem to have used the term "Presence".
Soh Wei Yu
The term Presence can be misleading. Some people think Presence is like a Self, but I do not understand it in terms of a Self.
That quality of Presence, as in I AM, is experienced constantly in everything now. Everything (and I mean the colors, shapes, textures, forms, sensations, sounds, tastes, smells, thought) are the opposite of dull and inert, they are vibrantly alive, dynamic, effervescent, sparkling, pulsating, amazing, marvellous, wondrous, magical, pure, perfect, vivid, brilliant, bright, luminous. All the qualities once relegated to some ultimate Center of Being or some 'Absolute' is now instead fully experienced as purely the relative, as the relativity itself, as the Presencing (a better word than 'Presence' because as Dogen said, Buddha-nature is Impermanence, Presencing is not a static entity but the very unfolding) of the dynamic unfolding of each moment as the 'concrete' textures and forms of each manifestation, ever so 'concrete' and yet empty (of inherency), but fully luminous. Absolutely no background behind.
I just wrote something to a friend days ago:
![](https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v3/yi/r/oJUaDQAiBQe.png)
That quality of Presence, as in I AM, is experienced constantly in everything now. Everything (and I mean the colors, shapes, textures, forms, sensations, sounds, tastes, smells, thought) are the opposite of dull and inert, they are vibrantly alive, dynamic, effervescent, sparkling, pulsating, amazing, marvellous, wondrous, magical, pure, perfect, vivid, brilliant, bright, luminous. All the qualities once relegated to some ultimate Center of Being or some 'Absolute' is now instead fully experienced as purely the relative, as the relativity itself, as the Presencing (a better word than 'Presence' because as Dogen said, Buddha-nature is Impermanence, Presencing is not a static entity but the very unfolding) of the dynamic unfolding of each moment as the 'concrete' textures and forms of each manifestation, ever so 'concrete' and yet empty (of inherency), but fully luminous. Absolutely no background behind.
I just wrote something to a friend days ago:
what i can describe is in my day to day living, as it is seen that there is no 'I' as a seer, feeler, thinker, an agent an 'self' entity residing inside the body somewhere relating to an outside world, my experience is now constantly a state of non-division, there has not been a trace of the sense of self as a separate entity, no sense of separation at all, no sense of being an agent or a self..
what is experienced in the absence of a 'self' is a very marvellous, wondrous, vivid, alive world that is full of intense vividness, joy, clarity, vitality, and an intelligence that is operating as every spontaneous action (there is no sense of being a doer). there is a perfection and purity pervading everything in all directions... even the fly is marvellous, is beyond beautiful, it is perfection and pure. there is no negative emotions, no getting hung up in hopes and fears, only perfection and purity
by intensity i mean everything is literally sparkling with brilliance, a vividness, an aliveness, even the trees feel alive, the earth feels alive, and of course every cell of the body feels alive, this aliveness is not in any way bounded by a sense of self and there is no sense of separation with the whole universe. everything literally feels bright, luminous, and wonderful... like the sky is bluer than blue, the sound of raindrops are delightful and vivid, the smells and aromas... all the senses are heightened, intense, vivid. it's like being constantly on a psychedelic drug like ecstasy or LSD except sober and with no negative side-effects or mental impairments. this is not an altered state of consciousness, it is what consciousness is supposed to be experienced, it is what consciousness/the world is in its state of primordial purity. it is like someone who is blind is said to have a more acute sense of hearing as their attention is unhindered by the details of sight... all the five senses and even thoughts are experienced in its naturally heightened luminous intensity when the contracted energy of the illusion of being a 'self' is seen through and dissolved
this universe being experienced without a 'self' is experienced as centerless (no me at the center looking out at the world outside of myself), and boundless (literally immense, large, so large that it is infinite without boundaries), and there is a constant marvelling at the infinitude of the universe being experienced afresh at every moment in vivid clarity, such that life is never dull or boring, but is experienced and expressed to the fullest intensity and joy at each moment as if each moment is like the first time you are experiencing life, that sort of feeling of amazement at seeing a wonderful scenery for the first time in your life or experiencing something new in your life.. that amazement can become constant.
there is also not the slightest sense of a distance, for example, when looking at the 'faraway' tree or building, it is as if you are there, as if the tree or the building is closer than your heartbeat and your breath.. literally no distance at all. it is as if you are the whole world rather than merely an onlooker of the whole world, except even that is not quite correct, there is no 'you' yet there is a gapless intimacy with every person, thing and event, closer than close
the luminous world experienced in no-self and no-separation and in its infinitude is the meaning of life being revealed each moment again.. it is truly living life to the fullest without holding back, it is liberating, it is utmost joy and perfection.
i have been living like this for 8+ years but this year the enlightened state has deepened immensely. and i am far from the only one experiencing this
it is possible that after reading this you may suddenly remember having had a glimpse of this before... while watching the sunset, looking at nature, listening to music, dancing to the music... that moment of enjoying something so fully until the sense of self dissolves into the perfection of that moment of experience (of the sunset, the tree, the music, the dance...) and life and the world reveals a vivid wonderful intensity. most people can recall at least having such glimpses before, often spontaneously, but for me it is a constant state after realising and penetrating the illusion of 'self' thoroughly.
so yeah highly recommended 10/10. life is not meant to be lived in a state of misery
...
I enjoy describing my experience of life/universe that is experienced like a fairy tale like paradise, where the universe, even the trees and birds and sky take on an ambience of being like a wonderland, like you are in heaven. Paradise is not far away for anyone but here and now as this moment in time and place in space.. so life is lived abundantly by living and enjoying the here and now rather than in the clouds of illusion (primarily the mentally projected illusion of being a separate self, alienated, separated, fearful and lonely by being cut off from the actual world) along with “my problems” of the past and future, the obsessive thoughts and anxieties can be ended. Practical thoughts arise when necessary but most of the time there are no thoughts. This is why i recommend “the power of now” by eckhart tolle for a start as it has practical and meditative pointers tho there is more to it”
- Zen Master Dogen, https://www.thezensite.com/.../Shobogenzo/058jippo.pdf...
"Unless the fabric and texture of awareness as 'forms', as 'things' is sufficiently experienced, we might not be talking the same stuff. " - John Tan, 2007, http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../early...
Yes jonls, agree with the example u gave. A good one and propensities and deep conditioning are exchangeable terms.
There is also another ‘deep conditioning’ called cognitive obscuration in Buddhism. Let’s take awareness for example, when we first experienced the “I AM”, the mind very quickly ascribed all sort of attributes to that experience according to our stored information. This tendency to objectify is also part of deep conditioning.
It is odorless, formless, colorless, thoughtless and void of any attributes and we unknowingly objectified these attributes into an ‘entity’ and make it an eternal background or an emptiness void. When this is done, it prevents us from experiencing the color, texture, fabric and manifesting nature of awareness. Suddenly thoughts are being grouped into another category and disowned. In actual case, thoughts think and sound hears. The observer has always been the observed. In naked awareness, there is no splitting of attributes and objectification of these attributes into different groups of the same experience. So thoughts are not disowned and “impermanence nature” taken in wholeheartedly in the experience of no-self. ‘Impermanence’ is never what it seems to be, never what that is understood in conceptual thoughts. ‘Impermanence’ is not what the mind has conceptualized it to be. In non-dual experience, the true face of impermanence nature is experienced as happening without movement, change without going anywhere. This is the “what is” of impermanence. It is just so. big grin
- John Tan, 2007 https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../early...
(10:45 AM) Thusness: I read about the non-duality of what ken wilber wrote, very good...the description is really good about the mountain closer than the skin.
(10:45 AM) AEN: yea tat is like wot i experienced too last time.. the description
(10:45 AM) AEN: lol
(10:45 AM) AEN: the closer than skin one
(10:46 AM) Thusness: it is how deep the clarity is and the extent this experience is uninterrupted.
(10:46 AM) Thusness: yes.
(10:46 AM) AEN: icic
(10:46 AM) Thusness: but even then it cannot touch the slightest depth of what one to communicate in terms of 'Emptiness is Form'.
(10:46 AM) AEN: oic
(10:46 AM) AEN: how come
(10:47 AM) Thusness: it is difficult for me to tell u, that sort of description is good but it cannot tell the depth and intensity...i do not know how to describe it too. :)
(10:48 AM) Thusness: whatever that is said and described by him and steven or by me, is only the surface.
(10:48 AM) Thusness: what is awareness
(10:48 AM) Thusness: what is meant by more real than the real.
(10:48 AM) Thusness: what is the texture and fabric of awareness as form.
(10:49 AM) Thusness: all these terms and descriptions are meaningless unless one sees the depthlessness of it.
- 2007
Participant G />
Participant G Presence
is not some self-standing entity. It is what allows you to refer to
anything. Without presence we couldn't be talking here.
Participant G />
Participant G Soh,
you are presuming stuff I did not imply. You are prompted to react to
certain words trough an agenda. I did not say Presence is a container.
Presence is the one taste of anything appearing, not appearing, in any
whatsoever way it may be. There is the presence of a fork, the presence
of a dog, etc...
Participant G />
Participant G Now.... perhaps you will bring up something related to "one taste" that is already part of your nomenclature. I dont mean that.
A sound is not a sight, but a sound is a manifestation, a appearance. A sight is not a sound, but a sight is a manifestation, an appearance. A sensations is not a sound, but it is manifestation, appearance. The I AM is likewise just another appearance, it is of the Mind door and therefore you say it is not a sight, not a sound. It is formless because it is not visually seen nor auditorily heard (because it is the Mind door, not the visual or auditory sense door) but it is still a manifestation. But it is really just another appearance, a manifestation. You do not say Presence allows appearance, for Presence is just appearances in all its diversities
Participant G />
Participant G Yes. I dont see how one could say there is Presence apart from something being present - of course.
Participant G />
Participant G Why are you talking about "I am"? Where did it enter the conversation
Participant G />
Participant G No way. I would never say that the formless is "I am"
Participant G />
Participant G In a dream you have dreamed tables and chairs, but the formless basis of the dream is the dreaming.
Participant G />
Participant G the objects of the dream change, nonetheless its all one dreaming - the basis
Participant G />
Participant G The above is an analogy.
Your description is still Thusness Stage 4
- Participant P Soh Wei Yu Can there ever be awareness absent of objects or is that just another differentiation as "awareness absent of objects" or in other words "awareness aware of itself as an object"? E.g. the empty notion of weather without any elemental properties. Or does awareness/weather simply becomes an empty imputed label, an idea?
Is it correct to say both the animate and inanimate are self aware through the process of co-arising. Not in the sense that a rock is a separate self conscious entity, but the rock is self aware through the process of seeing/touching. Prior to sentient beings, is there simply no rock?
A rock is not self aware in the sense of being to perceive its surrounding environment like we do (plants however do have rudimentary awareness). However the way they manifest in our experience is self luminous.
Conventionally, before humans, of course there is a rock. The earth is a huge rock that supports the evolution of sentient beings. Or as Alan Watts say, the planet peoples.
Ultimately, a rock is merely conventionally designated and cannot be found to exist inherently even now, so how can we speak of its inherent existence in the past and future? It is not the case that being aware of a rock establishes its inherent existence. Even as you are seeing it, it is empty, there is no inherently existing rock
For example, Jackson Peterson is hopelessly stuck there because of his decades of conditioning.
John Tan was stuck in I AM for maybe 15 years and even after initial insight into no-self got stuck in one mind for some time, it was not easy for him to overcome the tendencies of perceiving inherently. It was easier for me as I was trained in right view from the start, so although there were some struggles it was much more smooth sailing than for others. It is a quantum shift of perception and realization that the inherent way of perceiving Awareness is just a conditioning, a fabricated view of what awareness/reality is, it is not the true face of reality. I estimate around 98% of so called 'enlightened gurus/practitioners' never got past the I AM/One Mind phase. This naturally reinforces the echo chamber of eternal awareness with very few people coming up to say "hey! there's another way of seeing things, your view is flawed"
Participant G />
Participant G "And you may say when all five senses subsides and concepts cease there is still that Presence (what I call I AM)"
I did not say that. I said that I can not see how presence can be without a "thing" being present. Also, I did not say there is One Mind. Such Mind is also MInd made.
I did not say that. I said that I can not see how presence can be without a "thing" being present. Also, I did not say there is One Mind. Such Mind is also MInd made.
- Participant P Soh Wei Yu Is this same as Clear Light, Cognizant Nature, Knowingness, Rigpa?
Is Presence-Awareness present in states of unconsciousness e.g. deep sleep, knocked out, tranquilized, sedated.
Notions that presence awareness remains always unchanged is an eternalist view, i do not hold such views. It is possible to be constantly aware and experience clear light clarity in sleep but this is a straining and dangerous practice.
Look at dogen’s explanation of the inseparability of mind and phenomena, he does not posit some unchanging host transcending phenomena. His views on this matter is similar to mine
![My opinion on Shurangama Sutra](https://external.fsin1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQAtl-dztb3FLRRq&w=98&h=98&url=https%3A%2F%2Fresources.blogblog.com%2Fimg%2Ficon18_wrench_allbkg.png&cfs=1&_nc_hash=AQBlKzftXNX0ZFG6)
Participant P Soh Wei Yu
Eternalists would call that Turiya? Whereas there really is no
changeless, all aspects are always transient? Waking, Dreaming, Deep
Sleep, Clear Light?
Is rigpa/luminous presence also present in the 8th, 9th jhanas? Or are these transient states of not knowing, similar to deep sleep?
Is rigpa/luminous presence also present in the 8th, 9th jhanas? Or are these transient states of not knowing, similar to deep sleep?
Participant P Oops you just answered me, wrote to late.
Participant G />
Participant G I have not posited some self standing Awareness either
This is the delusion that I have seen through in October 2010 while contemplating on Bahiya Sutta. The whole framework of subject-action-object finally collapsed and it is realised there is never an 'awareness' or 'seeing' in and of itself besides seen, heard, sensed, cognized.. all self-luminously happening without an agent or a background or even a 'one mind manifesting as...'
Participant G />
Participant G "This
is the delusion that I have seen through in October 2010 while
contemplating on Bahiya Sutta. The whole framework of
subject-action-object finally collapsed and it is realized there is
never an 'awareness' or 'seeing' in and of itself besides seen,
heard, sensed, cognized.. all self-luminously happening without an
agent or a background or even a 'one mind manifesting as..."
Yes. Nonetheless, this does not mean there is not "equanimity". Meaning that there is not one thing more or less meaningful regarding the nature of what is. I think it is such equanimity that is confused as being ground awareness. The mind is unable, at one point, to comprehend that there may be equanimity w/o the need for some ground to compare/relate it with. So, it projects a subtle expanded subject. Although some tend to understand that "all is Awareness", but then that is still "One Mind" perspective, there is still a subsuming into subjectivity.
Yes. Nonetheless, this does not mean there is not "equanimity". Meaning that there is not one thing more or less meaningful regarding the nature of what is. I think it is such equanimity that is confused as being ground awareness. The mind is unable, at one point, to comprehend that there may be equanimity w/o the need for some ground to compare/relate it with. So, it projects a subtle expanded subject. Although some tend to understand that "all is Awareness", but then that is still "One Mind" perspective, there is still a subsuming into subjectivity.
Participant G />
Participant G It may be difficult to see the limiting factor of such subjective subsuming into "one modulating" view.
However it is not a formless and spaceless metaphysical substratum behind phenomena but is the boundless luminous world itself
The stillness free of any center or identity is both still and silent, equanimous and unpertubable.
The Buddha said, I dwell in safety, fearlessness and intrepidity. (which was born out of his knowledge and confidence in what he has realized)
There is not however some unchanging basis that is temporarily modulating into temporal forms. Not at all.
There is just being time, temporality is buddha nature
I think realization and development will eventually reach the same destination.
A practitioner that experience the “Self” will initially treat
1.The “Source as the Light of Everything”.
then
2. He/she will eventually move to the experience that the “Light is really the Everything”.
In the first case, the Light will appear to be still and the transience appears to be moving. Collapsing of space and time will only be experienced when one resides in Self. However if the mind continues to see the 'Light' as separated from the 'Everything' , then realization will appear to be apart from development.
In the second case when we experience the “Light is really the Everything”, then Everything will be experienced as manifesting yet not moving. This is the experience of wholeness and completeness in an instantaneous moment or Eternity in a moment. When this experience becomes clear in practice, then witness is seen as the transience. Space and time will also collapse when we experience the completeness and wholeness of transience. An instantaneous moment of manifestation that is complete and whole in its own also does not involve movement and change (No changing thing, only change). Practicing being 'bare' in attention yet at the same time noticing the 3 characteristics will eventually bring us to this point.
However what has a yogi overcome when moving from case 1 to 2 and what exactly is the cause of separation in the first place? I think realizing this cause is of utmost importance for solving the paradox of realization and development.
While it may be contrary to the suggestions of many that claim to represent Zen or Dogen, true nature, according to the classic Zen records (including Shobogenzo) is ever and always immediately present, particular, and precise. Notions or assertions suggesting that Zen is somehow mysterious, ineffable, or inexpressible are simply off the mark. The only place such terms can be accurately applied in Zen is to definite mysteries, particular unknowns, and specific inexpressible experiences. Indeed, in Zen, the terms definite, particular, and specific accurately characterize all dharmas. Dogen’s refrain, ‘Nothing in the whole universe is concealed’ means exactly what it says; no reality is the least bit obscure or vague. To emphasize this truth, the assertion that ‘real form is all dharmas’ runs like a mantra throughout Shobogenzo, for example:
“The realization of the Buddhist patriarchs is perfectly realized real form. Real form is all dharmas. All dharmas are forms as they are, natures as they are, body as it is, the mind as it is, the world as it is, clouds and rain as they are, walking, standing, sitting, and lying down, as they are; sorrow and joy, movement and stillness, as they are; a staff and a whisk, as they are; a twirling flower and a smiling face, as they are; succession of the Dharma and affirmation, as they are; learning in practice and pursuing the truth, as they are; the constancy of pines and the integrity of bamboos, as they are. Shobogenzo, Shoho-Jisso[199]”
In light of Shobogenzo’s (hence Zen’s) vision of existence-time (uji), existence (ontology; being) and time are not-two (nondual); dharmas are not simply existents in time, they are existents of time, and (all) time is in and of existents (i.e. dharmas). In short, dharmas do not exist independent of time, and time does not exist independent of dharmas. On a corollary note, since (all) existence demonstrates the quality of ‘impermanence,’ time too is impermanent. In Zen the nonduality of impermanence and time is treated in terms of ‘ceaseless advance’ or ‘ever passing’ – ‘ceaseless’ and ‘ever’ connoting ‘permanence’ or ‘eternity,’
‘advance’ and ‘passing’ indicating ‘impermanence’ or ‘temporal’ (temporary). Accordingly, ‘impermanence’ is ‘permanent’ and ‘change’ is ‘changeless’ – existence-time ever-always (eternally) advances (changes).[92] Dogen’s vision of reality exploits the significance of this to the utmost, unfolding its most profound implications with his notion of ‘the self-obstruction of a single dharma’ or ‘the total exertion of a single dharma’ (ippo gujin). This notion reveals a number of important implications concerning the nature of existence-time; two of which are: Each and all dharmas reveal, disclose, or present the whole universe (the totality of existence-time). Each and all dharmas are inherently infinite and eternal.
Biringer, Ted. Zen Cosmology: Dogen's Contribution to the Search for a New Worldview (p. 34). ZazensatioN. Kindle Edition.
Much of our difficulty in understanding time is due to the unwise use of spatial metaphors -- in fact, the objectification of time requires such spatial metaphors -- but in this case another spatial metaphor is helpful. We normally understand objects such as cups to be "in" space, which (as explained above in relation to time) implies that in themselves they must have a self-existence distinct from space. However, not much reflection is necessary to realize that the cup itself is irremediably spatial. All its parts must have a certain thickness, and without the various spatial relations among the bottom, sides, and handle, the cup could not be a cup. Perhaps one way to express this is to say that the cup is not "in" space but itself is space: the cup is "what space is doing in that place," so to speak. The same is true for the temporality of the cup. The cup is not an atemporal, self-existing object that just happens to be "in" time, for its being is irremediably temporal. The point of this is to destroy the thought-constructed dualism between things and time. When we wish to express this, we must describe one in terms of the other, by saying either that objects are temporal (in which case they are not "objects" as we usually conceive of them) or, conversely, that time is objects -- that is, that time expresses itself in the manifestations that we call objects. Probably the clearest expression of this way is given by Dōgen: "The time we call spring blossoms directly as an existence called flowers. The flowers, in turn, express the time called spring. This is not existence within time; existence
p. 19
The Mahāyāna Deconstruction of Time
itself is time."[20] This is the meaning of his "being-time" (uji):
"Being-time" means that time is being; that is, "Time is existence, existence is time." The shape of a Buddha-statue is time.... Every thing, every being in this entire world is time.... Do not think of time as merely flying by; do not only study the fleeting aspect of time. If time is really flying away, there would be a separation between time and ourselves. If you think that time is just a passing phenomenon, you will never understand being-time.[21]
Time "flies away" when we experience it dualistically, with the sense of a self that is outside and looking at it. Then time becomes something that I have (or do not have), objectified and quantified in a succession of "now-moments" that cannot be held but incessantly fall away. In contrast, the "being-times" that we usually reify into objects cannot be said to occur in time, for they are time. As Nāgārjuna would put it, that things (or rather "thingings") are time means that there is no second, external time that they are "within."
This brings us to the second prong of the dialectic. To use the interdependence of objects and time to deny only the reality (svabhāva) of objects is incomplete, because their relativity also implies the unreality of time. Just as with the other dualities analyzed earlier in section II, to say that there is only time turns out to be equivalent to saying that there is no time. Having used temporality to deconstruct things, we must reverse the analysis and use the lack of a thing "in" time to negate the objectivity of time also: when there is no "contained," there can be no "container." If there are no nouns, then there can be no temporal predicates because they have no referent. When there are no things which have an existence apart from time, then it makes no sense to speak of" them" as being young or old: "so the young man does not grow old nor does the old man grow old" (Nāgārjuna).[22] Dōgen expressed this in terms of firewood and ashes:
... we should not take the view that what is latterly ashes was formerly firewood. What we should understand is that, according to the doctrine of Buddhism, firewood stays at the position of firewood.... There are former and later stages, but these stages are clearly cut.[23]
Firewood does not become ashes; rather, there is the "being-time" of firewood, then the "being-time" of ashes. But how does such "being-time" free us from time?
Similarly, when human beings die, they cannot return to life; but in Buddhist teaching we never say life changes into death.... Likewise, death cannot change into life.... Life and death have absolute existence, like the relationship of winter and spring. But do not think of winter changing into spring or spring into summer.[24]
Because life and death, like spring and summer, are not in time, they are in themselves timeless. If there is nobody who lives and dies, then there is no life and death -- or, alternatively, we may say that there is life-and-death in every moment, with the arising and disappearance of each thought, perception, and act. Perhaps this is what Heraclitus meant when he said that "both life and
p. 20
LOY
death are in both our living and dying."[25] Certainly it is what Dōgen meant when he wrote that we must realize that nirvāṇa is nothing other than life-and-death, for only then can we escape from life and death.
- Zen master David Loy, and Zen master Dogen http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../the-mahayana...
![The Mahāyāna Deconstruction of Time](https://external.fsin1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQAtl-dztb3FLRRq&w=98&h=98&url=https%3A%2F%2Fresources.blogblog.com%2Fimg%2Ficon18_wrench_allbkg.png&cfs=1&_nc_hash=AQBlKzftXNX0ZFG6)
awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com
The Mahāyāna Deconstruction of Time
The Mahāyāna Deconstruction of TimeTime has no duration when the immediate is the ultimate and the relative is the absolute. This moment takes no interval at all to be here now. Thus it appears that it is as if nothing has occurred, for not only is the future not here, but the past does not exist either. If there is no beginning and no end, is there a middle? There are things happening, but nothing has happened or will happen … or so it seems. Only this moment exists. This moment has no term, it takes no time at all to occur … which gives rise to the inaccurate notion that it is timeless. This is an institutionalised delusion, for it stems from the egocentric feeling that ‘I’ am Immortal, that ‘I’ am Eternal.
Apperception – which is the mind’s perception of itself reveals that this moment is hanging in eternal time … just as this planet is hanging in infinite space. This moment and this place are in the realm of the infinitude of this actual physical universe. This moment is perennial, not timeless. I am perpetually here – for the term of my natural life – as this moment is; I am not Eternally Present. It is the universe that is eternal … not me. As one is the universe experiencing itself as a sensate human being, any ‘I’ - always on the look-out for self-aggrandisement – grabs the universe’s eternity for itself. Also, what helps to create the feeling that the present is timeless is that human beings – as an identity – are normally out of this universe’s eternal time. Yet time is as intimate as this body being here now at this moment. It is so intimate that I – as a body only – am not separate from it. Whereas ‘I’, as a human ‘being’, have separated ‘myself’ from eternal time by being an entity. To be an ontological ‘being’ is to mistakenly take this body being here as containing an ‘I’, a psychological or psychic entity. To ‘be’ is to take this moment of being alive personally … as being proof of ‘my’ subjective existence. ‘I’ am an illusion; if ‘I’ think and feel that ‘I’ do exist, then ‘I’ am outside of eternal time. ‘I’ am forever complaining that there is ‘not enough hours in the day’, or ‘I am always running out of time’, or ‘I am always catching up with time’, or ‘I am always behind time’. All this activity is considered ‘normal’, as it is the common experience of humankind. (...)
But I am supremely blasé about the opinion of others, for their ‘truths’ do not work ... they do not live in peace and tranquillity. They do not experience the perpetual purity of this moment of being alive; a purity welling-up in all directions from the vast, immeasurable stillness of the infinitude of this universe. They remain ignorant of the excellence of the absence of ‘being’. In short, their ‘truths’, their philosophies on life, do not work. The criterion of a fact is that it works, it produces results. Because I live here, where the immediate is the ultimate and the relative is the absolute, I have never known sorrow or malice. All my thoughts and deeds are benign, for maleficence does not exist where time has no duration.
By living the fact that ‘I’ am not actual, evil has ceased to be. Richard’s Journal, 1997, Article Sixteen
- Actual Freedom Richard http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/.../selectedw.../sw-time.htm
There is something precious in living itself. Something beyond compare. Something more valuable than any “King’s ransom”. It is not rare gemstones; it is not singular works of art; it is not the much-prized bags of money; it is not the treasured loving relationships; it is not the highly esteemed Blissful States Of ‘Being’ ... ... it is not any of these things usually considered precious. There is something ultimately precious. It is the essential character of the infinitude of the universe … which is the life-giving foundation of all that is apparent. That something precious is me as-I-am ... me as I actually am as distinct from ‘me’ as ‘I’ really am. I am the universe’s experience of itself. The limpid and lucid perfection and purity of being here now, as-I-am, is akin to the crystalline perfection and purity seen in a dew-drop hanging from the tip of a leaf in the early-morning sunshine; the sunrise strikes the transparent dew-drop with its warming rays, highlighting the flawless correctness of the tear-drop shape with its bellied form. One is left almost breathless with wonder at the immaculate simplicity so exemplified ... and everyone I have spoken with has experienced this impeccable purity and perfection in some way or another at varying stages in their life. Is it not impossible to conceive – and just too difficult to imagine – that this is one’s essential character? One has to be daring enough to live it ... for it is both one’s audacious birth-right and adventurous destiny.
When one lives the magical perfection of this purity twenty-four-hours-a-day; when one has ceased being ‘I’ and is being genuine, one can see clearly that there is no separation between me and that something which is precious. The purity of life emerges from the perfection that wells up constantly due to an immense stillness which is utterly immense in its scope and magnitude. This stillness of infinitude is that something which is precious. It is the life-giving foundation of all that is apparent. This stillness happens as me. This stillness is my essential disposition, for it is the principle character, the intrinsic basis of everything. It is this universe at its genesis. It is not, as it might commonly be supposed, at the centre of everything ... there is no centre here. This stillness, which is everywhere all at once, is the be all and end all of life itself. I am the universe experiencing itself as a sensate, reflective human being. Richard’s Journal, 1997, Article Twenty-five
- http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/.../sw-actualfreedom.htm
![Richard's Selected Writing on Time](https://external.fsin1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQB7JtK31lPhGLDZ&w=98&h=98&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.actualfreedom.com.au%2Fimages%2Fhibiscus.gif&cfs=1&_nc_hash=AQB6NytCfOuj_5eF)
Participant G />
Participant G I think Richard twist things to accommodate his righteousness.
"Apperception – which is the mind’s perception of itself reveals that this moment is hanging in eternal time … just as this planet is hanging in infinite space. This moment and this place are in the realm of the infinitude of this actual physical universe. This moment is perennial, not timeless. I am perpetually here – for the term of my natural life – as this moment is; I am not Eternally Present. It is the universe that is eternal … not me."
Time does not exist by itself. Time co-emerges with things. IOW, time is dependent on abiding or moving. There is no time apart from change. Time is just a measure of change. Infinite space, tridimensionality, is an interpretation of mind.
"Apperception – which is the mind’s perception of itself reveals that this moment is hanging in eternal time … just as this planet is hanging in infinite space. This moment and this place are in the realm of the infinitude of this actual physical universe. This moment is perennial, not timeless. I am perpetually here – for the term of my natural life – as this moment is; I am not Eternally Present. It is the universe that is eternal … not me."
Time does not exist by itself. Time co-emerges with things. IOW, time is dependent on abiding or moving. There is no time apart from change. Time is just a measure of change. Infinite space, tridimensionality, is an interpretation of mind.
However I am pointing out the direct insight of anatta into total exertion. Then there is boundless (and centerless) space and unlimited time, where the ten directions and three times are seamlessly exerted and consumed as one. With no trace of “you” at all there is also no trace of a noumenon, just immense, boundless temporal universe in its radiance, great and without boundary nor a center. It is not some formless absolute but the boundless, marvellous and luminous world of forms, colors, sounds, textures, fabric, smells, and so on with nothing behind or beyond.
Participant G />
Participant G Unlimited time? Imagine space w/o a single trace of objects, of things. Is there time?
Participant Y "There
is another perspective on time, which is from the perspective of
dependent designation and emptiness. But I shall digress"
Please do keep digressing Soh Wei Yu :)
Please do keep digressing Soh Wei Yu :)
Kyle Dixon wrote in reddit a year ago on the Madhyamaka perspective of time:
Nāgārjuna devotes an entire chapter to "time" in his Mulamadhyamakakarika, offering three different arguments against time.
The first:
Three arguments regarding time are presented. The first argument is a reprise of the production argument and relies on the common-sense view that time is split into past, present and future. Nagarjuna argues if the "parts" of time have own-being, the conception of time quickly loses its coherence. If "the past" is considered to produce "the present" and "the future," the latter two parts would be already "in" the past and could therefore not be properly said to have separate being. On the other hand, if the present and the future are separate from the past, then their very unconnectedness leaves them uncaused, independent and without reference to the past. But since the very notions of present and future imply a relation to the past, this is self-contradictory. Therefore, the present and future do not exist. Neither identity with nor difference from the past is sufficient to establish the reality of the present and future. In a similar fashion, the independence of any of the parts of time can be attacked on the basis of their inseparability and necessary reference to each other. The past, for example, can not be independent because it is nonsensical if it does not terminate in the present and future.
The second:
...if time is acknowledged to be continuously fleeting, there are no absolute static components of it that can be experienced (or, perhaps, "grasped" by the mind). If we propose, as the Abhidharmic metaphysicians held, that there can be a "static moment" of time, it would no longer count as time. Time in and of itself can never be grasped.
The third:
The third and final argument shows that time can not be considered to be a self-existing thing that is somehow not dependent on other existing objects. This is because, as Nagarjuna has shown, there are no independent "objects" in the world, nor could time be itself truly independent as long as it remained defined by its relation to such supposed entities. To place the argument in more contemporary terms, time is not a self-existing substratum or arena in which equally independent things endure or independent events occur.
This third argument is the most stand-out. Nāgārjuna essentially says that our perception of time is predicated upon our perception of objects, however since objects cannot actually be found when sought due to their inability to withstand keen scrutiny, time is a misconception and is a figment of delusion.
![Nagarjuna and Time](https://external.xx.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQDGJmn2Rs5RdM0x&w=98&h=98&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditstatic.com%2Fnew-icon.png&cfs=1&_nc_hash=AQBs98nIAMW-Rvr6)
[10:52 AM, 7/10/2019] John Tan: U must also understand how does it release the mind from what sort of negative emotions experientially.
[10:53 AM, 7/10/2019] John Tan: What good it has in understanding this and how it gradually change u ...not like magic suddenly u r freed.
[10:54 AM, 7/10/2019] John Tan: Anatta and direct insight has that sudden impact however later u will still need to stabilize these insights
Participant G />
Participant G "Unlimited time is the “eternity in a moment” plus total exertion of the three times"
Yes. I like to call it "timeless present". Actually it can be named according to preference, but never conceived or even referenced. Or maybe, "timeless presence". You choose... 🤔🙃
Yes. I like to call it "timeless present". Actually it can be named according to preference, but never conceived or even referenced. Or maybe, "timeless presence". You choose... 🤔🙃
Participant G />
Participant G And, also, there is no such thing as a self-standing "time". The world, appearances and time are one enchilada.
Participant G />
Participant G There is no time w/o things, and there are no things w/o time.
As immediate, direct perception (sensuous perception) does not involve either the affective faculty or the cognitive function the thinker (‘I’ as ego) and the feeler (‘me’ as soul) do not get a look-in ... hence I call this direct perception ‘apperception’ (perception unmediated by either ‘self’ or ‘Self’). Thus what I am is this flesh and blood body being apperceptively aware (sans ‘I’ as ego and ‘me’ as soul) ... which means that the actuality of the physical can indeed be known, each moment again, day after day.
I do not know if I can put it more briefly or succinctly than this.
*
Only the dependent designation and emptiness is missing above
• ‘Actual Freedom ... A New and Non-Spiritual Down-to-Earth Freedom’.
For example, the word ‘apperception’, as it is extensively used on The Actual Freedom Web Site, is not synonymous with the word ‘saksin’ which is sometimes translated into English as ‘the watcher’ ... apperception occurs when identity, by whatever name, is temporarily absent – as in a pure consciousness experience (PCE) – or permanently extinguished – as in an actual freedom from the human condition – and is best explained as consciousness being aware of being conscious (rather than the normal ‘I’ being aware of ‘me’ being conscious). Vis.:
• ‘apperception: the mind’s perception of itself’ (Oxford Dictionary).
Put simply: apperception is direct perception (perception unmediated by any identity whatsoever) which is the same thing as saying direct sensation – be it ocular sensation, cutaneous sensation, gustatory sensation, olfactory sensation, aural sensation or even proprioceptive sensation – because in the PCE, and in an actual freedom, only the sensate world exists in all its splendour and brilliance.
Thought may or may not be operating as required by the circumstances.
Second, the word ‘sensuous’ was apparently introduced into the English language to avoid certain associations with the existing word ‘sensual’ – the sensual experience is typically appetitive whereas the sensuous experience is typically aesthetic – but as ‘the enticement of sensation’ (aka hedonism) is totally non-existent in the PCE, and in an actual freedom, the distinction between the two words is only necessary when discussing with a person in whom the instinctual passions are still extant.
For an actualist it is not ‘odd to speak of sensuousness at all’ – and neither is ‘immediate sensuality’ contradictory – because one is referring to the unmediated sensate experiencing in this actual world (the world of this body and that body and every body; the world of the mountains and the streams; the world of the trees and the flowers; the world of the clouds in the sky by day and the stars in the firmament by night and so on and so on ad infinitum).
But it probably would be odd and/or contradictory for a person in whom perception is mediated by the ‘saksin’ or the ‘light-of-lights’ and any other similar spiritual entity inside the flesh and blood body.
Participant G />
Participant G i
dont resonate with Richard's writings. For example, I would never say,
"there is no mystery where there is such direct perception of actuality
as described".
Participant G />
Participant G I think he is too much full of.......
Participant G />
Participant G But I dont discard the mystery - as Richard does.
Participant G />
Participant G i
dont resonate with Richard's writings. For example, I would never say,
"there is no mystery where there is such direct perception of actuality
as described". As richard said
This is no different from Dogen's "nothing in the universe is hidden" or "nothing in the universe is concealed"
Only when one is operating under the delusion that 'Awareness' or 'Mind' has a hidden substance that one perceives hidden substances and entities. Insight reveals that no such hidden background or entities exist, any more than 'weather' refers to some hidden substance or entity. 'Weather' is really just a label for the rain falling, the sun shining, the wind blowing, the clouds forming, and when we say 'the rain is falling', the 'rain' is none other than the 'falling', 'the wind is blowing' -- wind is none other than blowing, there are no entities, agents, involved at all
“Immediate Present, Ultimate Dharma
Since our activity is not a progression from delusion to enlightenment made solely by the independent self, Dogen defines the first thought of practice as 'immediate present ultimate Dharma' or genjokoan: the presence and perfection of all dharmas as they are in the here-and-now.'
Hee-Jin Kim further explains the meaning of genjokoan: 'It does not suggest an evolutionary ascent from hidden-ness to manifestation, or from imperfection to perfection, or conversely, an emanational descent from one to many, or from reality to appearance. Rather, things, events, beings are already unmistakably what they truly are; what is more, they are vibrant, transparent, and bright in their as-they-are-ness.'”
Soh Wei Yu
Ted Biringer says:
While it may be contrary to the suggestions of many that claim to represent Zen or Dogen, true nature, according to the classic Zen records (including Shobogenzo) is ever and always immediately present, particular, and precise. Notions or assertions suggesting that Zen is somehow mysterious, ineffable, or inexpressible are simply off the mark. The only place such terms can be accurately applied in Zen is to definite mysteries, particular unknowns, and specific inexpressible experiences. Indeed, in Zen, the terms definite, particular, and specific accurately characterize all dharmas. Dogen’s refrain, ‘Nothing in the whole universe is concealed’ means exactly what it says; no reality is the least bit obscure or vague. To emphasize this truth, the assertion that ‘real form is all dharmas’ runs like a mantra throughout Shobogenzo, for example:
“The realization of the Buddhist patriarchs is perfectly realized real form. Real form is all dharmas. All dharmas are forms as they are, natures as they are, body as it is, the mind as it is, the world as it is, clouds and rain as they are, walking, standing, sitting, and lying down, as they are; sorrow and joy, movement and stillness, as they are; a staff and a whisk, as they are; a twirling flower and a smiling face, as they are; succession of the Dharma and affirmation, as they are; learning in practice and pursuing the truth, as they are; the constancy of pines and the integrity of bamboos, as they are. Shobogenzo, Shoho-Jisso[199]”
In light of Shobogenzo’s (hence Zen’s) vision of existence-time (uji), existence (ontology; being) and time are not-two (nondual); dharmas are not simply existents in time, they are existents of time, and (all) time is in and of existents (i.e. dharmas). In short, dharmas do not exist independent of time, and time does not exist independent of dharmas. On a corollary note, since (all) existence demonstrates the quality of ‘impermanence,’ time too is impermanent. In Zen the nonduality of impermanence and time is treated in terms of ‘ceaseless advance’ or ‘ever passing’ – ‘ceaseless’ and ‘ever’ connoting ‘permanence’ or ‘eternity,’
‘advance’ and ‘passing’ indicating ‘impermanence’ or ‘temporal’ (temporary). Accordingly, ‘impermanence’ is ‘permanent’ and ‘change’ is ‘changeless’ – existence-time ever-always (eternally) advances (changes).[92] Dogen’s vision of reality exploits the significance of this to the utmost, unfolding its most profound implications with his notion of ‘the self-obstruction of a single dharma’ or ‘the total exertion of a single dharma’ (ippo gujin). This notion reveals a number of important implications concerning the nature of existence-time; two of which are: Each and all dharmas reveal, disclose, or present the whole universe (the totality of existence-time). Each and all dharmas are inherently infinite and eternal.
Biringer, Ted. Zen Cosmology: Dogen's Contribution to the Search for a New Worldview (p. 34). ZazensatioN. Kindle Edition.
![](https://www.facebook.com/rsrc.php/v3/yi/r/oJUaDQAiBQe.png)
While it may be contrary to the suggestions of many that claim to represent Zen or Dogen, true nature, according to the classic Zen records (including Shobogenzo) is ever and always immediately present, particular, and precise. Notions or assertions suggesting that Zen is somehow mysterious, ineffable, or inexpressible are simply off the mark. The only place such terms can be accurately applied in Zen is to definite mysteries, particular unknowns, and specific inexpressible experiences. Indeed, in Zen, the terms definite, particular, and specific accurately characterize all dharmas. Dogen’s refrain, ‘Nothing in the whole universe is concealed’ means exactly what it says; no reality is the least bit obscure or vague. To emphasize this truth, the assertion that ‘real form is all dharmas’ runs like a mantra throughout Shobogenzo, for example:
“The realization of the Buddhist patriarchs is perfectly realized real form. Real form is all dharmas. All dharmas are forms as they are, natures as they are, body as it is, the mind as it is, the world as it is, clouds and rain as they are, walking, standing, sitting, and lying down, as they are; sorrow and joy, movement and stillness, as they are; a staff and a whisk, as they are; a twirling flower and a smiling face, as they are; succession of the Dharma and affirmation, as they are; learning in practice and pursuing the truth, as they are; the constancy of pines and the integrity of bamboos, as they are. Shobogenzo, Shoho-Jisso[199]”
In light of Shobogenzo’s (hence Zen’s) vision of existence-time (uji), existence (ontology; being) and time are not-two (nondual); dharmas are not simply existents in time, they are existents of time, and (all) time is in and of existents (i.e. dharmas). In short, dharmas do not exist independent of time, and time does not exist independent of dharmas. On a corollary note, since (all) existence demonstrates the quality of ‘impermanence,’ time too is impermanent. In Zen the nonduality of impermanence and time is treated in terms of ‘ceaseless advance’ or ‘ever passing’ – ‘ceaseless’ and ‘ever’ connoting ‘permanence’ or ‘eternity,’
‘advance’ and ‘passing’ indicating ‘impermanence’ or ‘temporal’ (temporary). Accordingly, ‘impermanence’ is ‘permanent’ and ‘change’ is ‘changeless’ – existence-time ever-always (eternally) advances (changes).[92] Dogen’s vision of reality exploits the significance of this to the utmost, unfolding its most profound implications with his notion of ‘the self-obstruction of a single dharma’ or ‘the total exertion of a single dharma’ (ippo gujin). This notion reveals a number of important implications concerning the nature of existence-time; two of which are: Each and all dharmas reveal, disclose, or present the whole universe (the totality of existence-time). Each and all dharmas are inherently infinite and eternal.
Biringer, Ted. Zen Cosmology: Dogen's Contribution to the Search for a New Worldview (p. 34). ZazensatioN. Kindle Edition.
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Zazen: Polishing a Tile to Make a Mirror - Becoming Buddha
Zazen: Polishing a Tile to Make a Mirror - Becoming Buddha
chetanaa is active - also known as prana-shakti or vital energy. The vital energy or prana-shakti nourishes and gives energy to the physical body, mind, intellect and subtle ego. The energy is distributed through non-physical / subtle channels known as nadis (nadi-nadi). These traditions are common throughout the body and supply energy to cells, nerves, arteries, lymph, etc.