Also see:
The Meaning of Nirvana
Great Resource of Buddha's Teachings
What is Nirvana?
From a post I wrote years ago:
Hi
Justin Struble we have to be very careful in interpreting that Nibbana
sutta. First of all we have to understand what 'Nirvana/Nibbana' means
in context. As Ven Hui-feng puts it, "keep in mind the basic
metaphorical meaning of the term nirvana, the extinguishing of a flame".
The main analogy given by Buddha for nirvana is the extinguishing of a
flame. As Ven Nanananda also pointed out,
"Regarding this concept of Nibbàna too, the worldling is generally
tempted to entertain some kind of ma¤¤anà, or me-thinking. Even some
philosophers are prone to that habit. They indulge in some sort of
prolific conceptualisation and me-thinking on the basis of such
conventional usages as `in Nibbàna', `from Nibbàna', `on reaching
Nibbàna' and `my Nibbàna'. By hypostasizing Nibbàna they develop a
substance view, even of this concept, just as in the case of pañhavi, or
earth. Let us now try to determine whether this is justifiable.
The primary sense of the word Nibbàna is `extinction', or
`extinguishment'. We have already discussed this point with reference
to such contexts as Aggivacchagottasutta.[8] In that discourse the
Buddha explained the term Nibbàna to the wandering ascetic
Vacchagotta with the help of a simile of the extinction of a fire.
Simply because a fire is said to go out, one should not try to trace
it, wondering where it has gone. The term Nibbàna is essentially a
verbal noun. We also came across the phrase nibbuto tveva saïkhaü
gacchati, "it is reckoned as `extinguished'".[9]"
Extinction of what? Extinction of passion, aggression and delusion
driving the whole mass of samsara. Extinction of the the whole mass of
suffering/samsara in the twelve links from ignorance up to old age,
sickness and death.
Next is the terms
'unconditioned/death-free/etc' it is very easy to reify this in terms of
a metaphysical entity. This is not the case.
Here are some quotations which should hopefully clarify:
Nana/Geoff: "“Firstly, while the translation of asaṃskṛta as “the
unconditioned” is fairly common, it’s a rather poor translation that all
too easily leads to reification. The term asaṃskṛta refers to a
negation of conditioned factors, and the meaning is better conveyed by
“not-conditioned.” Secondly, for Sautrāntika commentators, and many
mahāyānika commentators as well, an analytical cessation
(pratisaṃkhyānirodha) is a non-implicative negation
(prasajyapratiṣedha), i.e. a negation that doesn’t imply the presence of
some other entity, and therefore nirvāṇa simply refers to a cessation
that terminates the defilements and fetters that are abandoned by the
correct practice of the noble path. It doesn’t refer to an entity or
state that is substantially existent (dravyasat).” "
Nana/Geoff: "One has to be careful with such descriptions which may
seem to be pointing to some sort of truly existent "unconditioned
ground." Nibbāna is the extinguishment of the mental outflows (āsavā).
The liberated mind is measureless (appamāṇa). This is not a "state of
oneness with all of existence." It's an absence of identification
(anattatā). It's non-indicative (anidassana), unestablished
(appatiṭṭha), and not-dependent (anissita). None of these adjectives
entail any sort of metaphysical "ground of being" or "unconditioned
absolute." They are all negations. An arahant has simply "gone out."
tiltbillings: "There is no "deathless." That is a bad translation
leading to an objectification/reification of the idea of awakening. With
awakening, there is no more rebirth, one is free from death. (31
words.)""
Loppon Namdrol/Malcolm: “When you have
eradicated all afflictions which cause rebirth, this is all the
deathlessness you need. No more birth, BAM! no more death.”
Buddha: "SN 43 Asaṅkhata Saṃyutta (1-44 combined & abridged):
And
what, monks, is the not-fabricated (asaṅkhata)? The elimination of
passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion:
this is called the not-fabricated.
And what, monks, is the
not-inclined (anata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of
aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the
not-inclined.
And what, monks, is the outflowless (anāsava)?
The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the
elimination of delusion: this is called the outflowless.
And
what, monks, is the truth (sacca)? The elimination of passion, the
elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called
the truth.
And what, monks, is the farther shore (pāra)? The
elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination
of delusion: this is called the farther shore.
And what,
monks, is the subtle (nipuṇa)? The elimination of passion, the
elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called
the subtle.
And what, monks, is the very hard to see
(sududdasa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression,
the elimination of delusion: this is called the very hard to see.
And what, monks, is the unaging (ajajjara)? The elimination of passion,
the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is
called the unaging.
And what, monks, is the stable (dhuva)?
The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the
elimination of delusion: this is called the stable.
And what,
monks, is the undisintegrating (apalokita)? The elimination of passion,
the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is
called the undisintegrating.
And what, monks, is the
non-indicative (anidassana)? The elimination of passion, the elimination
of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the
non-indicative.
And what, monks, is the unproliferated
(nippapañca)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression,
the elimination of delusion: this is called the unproliferated.
And what, monks, is the peaceful (santa)? The elimination of passion,
the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is
called the peaceful.
And what, monks, is the death-free
(amata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the
elimination of delusion: this is called the death-free.
And
what, monks, is the sublime (paṇīta)? The elimination of passion, the
elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called
the sublime.
And what, monks, is the auspicious (siva)? The
elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination
of delusion: this is called the auspicious.
And what, monks,
is the secure (khema)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of
aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the secure.
And what, monks, is the elimination of craving (taṇhākkhaya)? The
elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination
of delusion: this is called the elimination of craving.
And
what, monks, is the wonderful (acchariya)? The elimination of passion,
the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is
called the wonderful.
And what, monks, is the amazing
(abbhuta)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression,
the elimination of delusion: this is called the amazing.
And
what, monks, is the calamity-free (anītika)? The elimination of passion,
the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is
called the calamity-free.
And what, monks, is the dhamma free
of calamity (anītikadhamma)? The elimination of passion, the
elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called
the dhamma free of calamity.
And what, monks, is
extinguishment (nibbāna)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of
aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called extinguishment.
And what, monks, is the unafflicted (abyāpajjha)? The elimination of
passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion:
this is called the unafflicted.
And what, monks, is
dispassion (virāga)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of
aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called dispassion.
And what, monks, is purity (suddhi)? The elimination of passion, the
elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called
purity.
And what, monks, is freedom (mutti)? The elimination
of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion:
this is called freedom.
And what, monks, is the unadhesive
(anālaya)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression,
the elimination of delusion: this is called the unadhesive.
And what, monks, is the island (dīpa)? The elimination of passion, the
elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called
the island.
And what, monks, is the cave (leṇa)? The
elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination
of delusion: this is called the cave.
And what, monks, is the
shelter (tāṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of
aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the shelter.
And what, monks, is the refuge (saraṇa)? The elimination of passion,
the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is
called the refuge.
And what, monks, is the destination
(parāyana)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression,
the elimination of delusion: this is called the destination." - SN 43 Asaṅkhata Saṃyutta - more in http://measurelessmind.ca/pariyosana.html
I can provide many more quotations but this will suffice for now, I
think. Nirvana is extinction, like the blowing out of a flame, it is
simply and merely the end of suffering and afflictions and does not
imply a metaphysical substantial existent as some may postulate. There
is no "The Unconditioned" or "The Unborn" or "The Deathless" as some
sort of metaphysical essence. There is an unconditioned dharma -
analytical cessation (nirvana) - that is the end of birth and death
(death-free), is not conditioned (by afflictive causes and
manifestations) etc.
All these are classic
Nirvana stuff found in the earliest teachings in Pali suttas. In
Mahayana emptiness, there is another understanding of "unconditioned"
and that is as what Kyle said which I find to be very well said:
"The unconditioned is the emptiness of the skandhas.
Recognition of the emptiness of the skandhas means that the skandhas
are non-arisen, what has not arisen cannot be conditioned."
"The basis should be understood to be in accordance with the following insight from Nāgārjuna:
• Since arising, abiding and perishing are not established,
the conditioned is not established;
since the conditioned is never established,
how can the unconditioned be established?
and,
•
Outside of the saṃskṛtas [conditioned dharmas], there are no asaṃskṛta
[unconditioned dharmas], and the true nature [bhūtalakṣaṇa] of the
saṃskṛta is exactly asaṃskṛta. The saṃskṛtas being empty, etc. the
asaṃskṛtas themselves are also empty, for the two things are not
different. Besides, some people, hearing about the defects of the
saṃskṛtadharmas, become attached [abhiniveśante] to the asaṃskṛtadharmas
and, as a result of this attachment, develop fetters.
The latter portion of the second quotation addresses your issue." - Kyle Dixon
In any case, whether the classical nirvana understanding of the
earliest text, or the emptiness understanding of
unconditioned/non-arisen, there is no postulating of a truly existing
metaphysical essence."
"Deluded beings perceive impermanence because they experience entities and processes that arise, decay and eventually cease.
Awakened beings perceive non-arising in relation to entities, which is
the emptiness of entities. This renders the perception of impermanence
impossible because without entities that arise in the first place there
is no decay or cessation." - Kyle Dixon, 2021
For a more experiential description on what Nibbana is and the relation to the recognition of anatta (selflessness) do refer to the articles I pasted in Great Resource of Buddha's Teachings
---------------
The Buddha said in
Dhātuvibhanga Sutta: The Exposition of the Elements
https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/middle-length-discourses-buddha/selections/middle-length-discourses-140-dhatuvibhanga-sutta
28. “Formerly, when he was ignorant, he experienced covetousness,
desire, and lust; now he has abandoned them, cut them off at the root,
made them like a palm stump, done away with them so that they are no
longer subject to future arising. Formerly, when he was ignorant, he
experienced anger, ill will, and hate; now he has abandoned them, cut
them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, done away with them
so that they are no longer subject to future arising. Formerly, when he
was ignorant, he experienced ignorance and delusion; now he has
abandoned them, cut them off [246] at the root, made them like a palm
stump, done away with them so that they are no longer subject to future
arising. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing [this peace] possesses the
supreme foundation of peace. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble
peace, namely, the pacification of lust, hate, and delusion.
29. “So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘One should
not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, should cultivate
relinquishment, and should train for peace.’
30. “‘The tides of conceiving do not sweep over one who stands upon
these [foundations], and when the tides of conceiving no longer sweep
over him he is called a sage at peace.’ So it was said. And with
reference to what was this said?
31. “Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving;
‘I shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall
be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a
conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be
non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be
neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a conceiving. Conceiving is a
disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all
conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at
peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and is
not agitated. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be
born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die?
Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he be
agitated?
32. “So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The tides
of conceiving do not sweep over one who stands upon these [foundations],
and when the tides of conceiving no longer sweep over him he is called a
sage at peace.’ Bhikkhu, bear in mind this brief exposition of the six
elements.”
---------------
Soh:
The understanding of Nirvana in the different schools of Buddhism
Just
saw Geoff (nana/jnana) wrote a great informative post explaining the
different understanding of Nirvana in the various Hinayana or Mahayana
traditions of Buddhism:
"For
the Theravāda, nibbāna is an ultimately real dhamma (paramatthadhamma)
and the only dhamma that is not conditioned (asaṅkhata). It is an object
of supramundane cognition (lokuttaracitta) and is included in the
mental phenomena sensory sphere (dhammāyatana) and the mental phenomena
component (dhammadhātu). The four paths, four fruits, and nibbāna are
classified as the unincluded level (apariyāpanna bhūmi), that is, not
included in the sensual realm, the form realm, or the formless realm.
According to the Visuddhimagga, nibbāna "has peace as its
characteristic. Its function is not to die; or its function is to
comfort. It is manifested as the signless; or it is manifested as
non-diversification (nippapañca)."
According
to the Sarvāstivāda, nirvāṇa is an analytical cessation
(pratisaṃkhyānirodha) that is a disjunction from impure dharmas that
occurs through analysis (pratisaṃkhyāna), which is a specific type of
discernment (prajñā). This analytical cessation is substantially
existent (dravyasat) and ultimately exists (paramārthasat).
For
Sautrāntika commentators nirvāṇa as an analytical cessation
(pratisaṃkhyānirodha) is a merely a conceptual designation (prajñapti)
and doesn't refer to an entity or state that is substantially existent
(dravyasat). It is a non-implicative negation (prasajyapratiṣedha), that
is, a negation that doesn't imply the presence of some other entity.
Therefore nirvāṇa simply refers to a cessation that is the termination
of defilements that are abandoned by the correct practice of the noble
path.
According
to the Yogācāra, for those on the bodhisattva path, nirvāṇa is
non-abiding (apratiṣṭha nirvāṇa). The dependent nature
(paratantrasvabhāva) is the basis (āśraya) of both defilement and
purification. The all-basis consciousness (ālayavijñāna) is the defiled
portion (saṃkleśabhāga) of the dependent nature. Purified suchness
(viśuddhā tathatā) is the purified portion (vyavadānabhāga) of the
dependent nature. Synonyms for purified suchness are the perfected
nature (pariniṣpanna) and non-abiding nirvāṇa. Non-abiding nirvāṇa is
the revolved basis (āśrayaparāvṛtti) that has eliminated defilements
without abandoning saṃsāra.
Madhyamaka
authors accept the notion of non-abiding nirvāṇa, but they don't use
the three natures model used by the Yogācāra. Rather, they simply
consider all things to be conceptual designations (prajñapti) that are
empty of nature (svabhāva). For them, conceptual designations are
relative truth (saṃvṛtisatya) and only emptiness is ultimate truth
(paramārthasatya).
Zen,
Pure Land, Vajrayāna, etc., are practice traditions more so than
doctrinal schools, and authors writing from any of these perspectives
would generally rely on Yogācāra or Madhyamaka śāstras or a specific
Mahāyāna sūtra."
Dmytro asked: "Hi Ñāṇa,
And how you would put the Buddha's description of Nibbana in relation to said above?"
Geoff replied: "Given
the definition given in SN 38.1, SN 43.1-44, and Abhidhamma Vibhaṅga
184, I would say that it's a designation (paññatti, prajñapti) referring
to the elimination of passion, aggression, and delusion. Or with regard
to the four paths (stream-entry, etc.), a designation referring to the
elimination of fetters terminated by each path. This is similar to the
Sautrāntika interpretation."
I
concur. Sautrantika has the closest understanding of Nirvana to the
original teachings of Buddha, which I shall elaborate in the comments
section.
Unlike · · Unfollow Post · March 6 at 2:39am near Brisbane, Queensland
Seen by 175
You like this.
Soh: Some weeks ago I also wrote something elsewhere:
"Nagarjuna
wrote in his seventy verses that rejected Nirvana as a true existence
or as the annihilation of a real being or entity: #24.
Opponent:
If there is no origination and cessation, then to the cessation of what
is nirvana due? Reply: Is not liberation this: that by nature nothing
arises and ceases?
.
#25.
If
nirvana [resulted] from cessation, [then there would be] destruction.
If the contrary, [there would be] permanence. Therefore it is not
logical that nirvana is being or non-being."
Not
only does the Aṣṭasāhasrikāprajñapāramitā Sutra talk about Nirvana as
illusory, the Samadhiraja Sutra also says 'The ultimate truth is like a
dream; And nirvana is similarly like a dream. The wise take them that
way And this is the supreme discipline of mind" and "When the
bodhisattva addresses these things: The truth of cessation is like a
dream, Nirvana also is essentially a dream; That is called the
discipline of speech."
Some
Theravadins have a slightly eternalistic interpretation of Nibbana. In
the past, the Sautrantika (which was even much more popular than
Theravada until it died out in India along with the whole of Buddhism in
general, leaving Theravada in other countries like Sri Lanka etc) which
follows the Buddha's teachings or suttas more to the letter would
strictly define nirvana in terms of cessation or elimination of fetters.
Which is what the Buddha taught that Nirvana is. An eternalistic
interpretation of Nirvana as some ultimately existing reality has no
basis at all in the Pali canon/Buddha's words which clearly defined in
so many instances that Nirvana, not-conditioned, not-born, death-free
and so on are simply synonyms for the "elimination of passion,
aggression and delusion". (reference:
http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/447451)
The
analogy given by the Buddha on Nirvana is a fire going out - and
Nirvana simply means cessation, termination, gone out, etc. And with
cessation there is no remainder of any kind of being or existence, nor
could it be understood in terms of non-being, both or neither.
"Even
in the Vedic period there was the dilemma between `being' and
`non-being'. They wondered whether being came out of non-being, or
non-being came out of being. Katham asataþ sat jàyeta, "How could being
come out of non-being?"[23] In the face of this dilemma regarding the
first beginnings, they were sometimes forced to conclude that there
was neither non-being nor being at the start, nàsadàsãt no sadàsãt
tadànãm.[24] Or else in the confusion they would sometimes leave the
matter unsolved, saying that perhaps only the creator knew about it.
All
this shows what a lot of confusion these two words sat and asat, being
and non-being, had created for the philosophers. It was only the Buddha
who presented a perfect solution, after a complete reappraisal of the
whole problem of existence. He pointed out that existence is a fire kept
up by the fuel of grasping, so much so that, when grasping ceases,
existence ceases as well.
In
fact the fire simile holds the answer to the tetralemma included among
the ten unexplained points very often found mentioned in the suttas.
It concerns the state of the Tathàgata after death, whether he exists,
does not exist, both or neither. The presumption of the questioner is
that one or the other of these four must be and could be answered in
the affirmative.
The
Buddha solves or dissolves this presumptuous tetralemma by bringing in
the fire simile. He points out that when a fire goes out with the
exhaustion of the fuel, it is absurd to ask in which direction the fire
has gone. All that one can say about it, is that the fire has gone out:
Nibbuto tveva saïkhaü gacchati, "it comes to be reckoned as `gone
out'."[25]
It
is just a reckoning, an idiom, a worldly usage, which is not to be
taken too literally. So this illustration through the fire simile
drives home to the worldling the absurdity of his presumptuous
tetralemma of the Tathàgata.
In the Upasãvasutta of the Pàràyaõavagga of the Sutta Nipàta we find the lines:
Accã yathà vàtavegena khitto,
atthaü paleti na upeti saïkhaü,
"Like the flame thrown out by the force of the wind
Reaches its end, it cannot be reckoned."[26]
Here
the reckoning is to be understood in terms of the four propositions of
the tetralemma. Such reckonings are based on a total misconception of
the phenomenon of fire.
It
seems that the deeper connotations of the word Nibbàna in the context
of pañicca samuppàda were not fully appreciated by the commentators.
And that is why they went in search of a new etymology. They were too
shy of the implications of the word `extinction'. Probably to avoid the
charge of nihilism they felt compelled to reinterpret certain key
passages on Nibbàna. They conceived Nibbàna as something existing out
there in its own right. They would not say where, but sometimes they
would even say that it is everywhere. With an undue grammatical
emphasis they would say that it is on coming to that Nibbàna that lust
and other defilements are abandoned: Nibbànaü àgamma ràgàdayo khãõàti
ekameva nibbànaü ràgakkhayo dosakkhayo mohakkhayo ti vuccati.[27]
But
what do we find in the joyous utterances of the theras and therãs who
had realized Nibbàna? As recorded in such texts as Thera- and
Therã-gàthà they would say: Sãtibhåto'smi nibbuto, "I am grown cool,
extinguished as I am."[28] The words sãtibhåta and nibbuta had a cooling
effect even to the listener, though later scholars found them
inadequate.
Extinction
is something that occurs within an individual and it brings with it a
unique bliss of appeasement. As the Ratanasutta says: Laddhà mudhà
nibbutiü bhu¤jamànà, "they experience the bliss of appeasement won free
of charge."[29] Normally, appeasement is won at a cost, but here we
have an appeasement that comes gratis." ~ Venerable Nanananda,
http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/nibbana01.htm"
The Meaning of Nirvana - SgForums.com
sgforums.com
This
type of blackout cessation is experienced by all sorts of yogis
including those practicing non-Buddhist systems. Thus, it has nothing to
do with the correct engagement of vipassanā. The cessation of
unsatisfactoriness (dukkhanirodha) is the cessation of craving (taṇhā),
not the cessation of phe...[Preview cut off]
March 6 at 2:41am · Like · Remove Preview
Soh:
That being said, I do not see contradiction between Buddha's
understanding of Nirvana and Yogacara's understanding of 'perfected
suchness' (especially when we take into consideration the Buddha's
teaching on suchness such as Kalaka Sutta). The notion of eliminating
defilements yet not abandoning samsara is however a Mahayana development
(which does not however contradict the Buddha's early teachings insofar
as it does not present a substantialist understanding of Nirvana,
especially for Madhyamika).
March 6 at 2:49am · Edited · Like
................
RB wrote: I read the links on your blog. I'd have to disagree as would many
theravadins. It's clear and I could cite passage after passage from the
Suttas referencing Nibbana as an element, a dhamma, or as the
unconditioned etc. Of course that isn't negating the passages from the
articles on your site indicating that Nibbana is the destruction of the
taints. I'm not convinced that NIbbana is ONLY the ending of the
defilements.
Soh Wei Yu
Nirvana is of course a dharma, and it is not conditioned.
Specifically,
nirvana is the destruction of taints and is not conditioned. Nirvana
simply means extinction, cessation, of those afflictions, and nothing
else.
The knowledge of nibbana is precisely
described by Buddha as the third knowledge, the knowledge of the
destruction of the cankers.
There are only two other types of not conditioned dharma.
Arcaya Malcolm:
“Just
how many unconditioned (saṃskrita) dharmas do you think there are? By
my count, there are only three: space and the two cessations. Space has
no function at all, and neither do the two cessations. Space never
changes, it is permanent. Cessations never change, they are permanent.
Emptiness also has no "function." Emptiness is also permanent and changeless.
Space, cessation, and emptiness also are not real so their permanence is merely a formal statement.
Only conditioned dharmas have "functions."” 
Soh Wei Yu Keep in mind that Buddha also said:
Buddha: "SN 43 Asaṅkhata Saṃyutta (1-44 combined & abridged):
And what, monks, is the not-fabricated (asaṅkhata)? The elimination
of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion:
this is called the not-fabricated.
And what,
monks, is the not-inclined (anata)? The elimination of passion, the
elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called
the not-inclined.
And what, monks, is the
outflowless (anāsava)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of
aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the outflowless.
And what, monks, is the truth (sacca)? The elimination of passion,
the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is
called the truth.
And what, monks, is the
farther shore (pāra)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of
aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the farther
shore.
And what, monks, is the subtle (nipuṇa)?
The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the
elimination of delusion: this is called the subtle.
And what, monks, is the very hard to see (sududdasa)? The
elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination
of delusion: this is called the very hard to see.
And what, monks, is the unaging (ajajjara)? The elimination of
passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion:
this is called the unaging.
And what, monks, is
the stable (dhuva)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of
aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the stable.
And what, monks, is the undisintegrating (apalokita)? The
elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination
of delusion: this is called the undisintegrating.
And what, monks, is the non-indicative (anidassana)? The elimination
of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion:
this is called the non-indicative.
And what,
monks, is the unproliferated (nippapañca)? The elimination of passion,
the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is
called the unproliferated.
And what, monks, is
the peaceful (santa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of
aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the peaceful.
And what, monks, is the death-free (amata)? The elimination of
passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion:
this is called the death-free.
And what, monks,
is the sublime (paṇīta)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of
aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the sublime.
And what, monks, is the auspicious (siva)? The elimination of
passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion:
this is called the auspicious.
And what, monks,
is the secure (khema)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of
aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the secure.
And what, monks, is the elimination of craving (taṇhākkhaya)? The
elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination
of delusion: this is called the elimination of craving.
And what, monks, is the wonderful (acchariya)? The elimination of
passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion:
this is called the wonderful.
And what, monks,
is the amazing (abbhuta)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of
aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the amazing.
And what, monks, is the calamity-free (anītika)? The elimination of
passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion:
this is called the calamity-free.
And what,
monks, is the dhamma free of calamity (anītikadhamma)? The elimination
of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion:
this is called the dhamma free of calamity.
And
what, monks, is extinguishment (nibbāna)? The elimination of passion,
the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is
called extinguishment.
And what, monks, is the
unafflicted (abyāpajjha)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of
aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the
unafflicted.
And what, monks, is dispassion
(virāga)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the
elimination of delusion: this is called dispassion.
And what, monks, is purity (suddhi)? The elimination of passion, the
elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called
purity.
And what, monks, is freedom (mutti)? The
elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination
of delusion: this is called freedom.
And what,
monks, is the unadhesive (anālaya)? The elimination of passion, the
elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called
the unadhesive.
And what, monks, is the island
(dīpa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the
elimination of delusion: this is called the island.
And what, monks, is the cave (leṇa)? The elimination of passion, the
elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called
the cave.
And what, monks, is the shelter
(tāṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the
elimination of delusion: this is called the shelter.
And what, monks, is the refuge (saraṇa)? The elimination of passion,
the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is
called the refuge.
And what, monks, is the
destination (parāyana)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of
aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the
destination." - SN 43 Asaṅkhata Saṃyutta - more in http://measurelessmind.ca/pariyosana.html Soh Wei Yu And importantly, since you mentioned about 'element':
This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.
Nibbānadhātuyā kho etaṃ, bhikkhu, adhivacanaṃ: ‘rāgavinayo dosavinayo mohavinayo’ti.
https://suttacentral.net/sn45.7/en/bodhi
-----------------------------------------
Great Resource of Buddha's Teachings
Update: The site has been taken down. But a copy of it is available on Scribd here: https://www.scribd.com/document/274168728/Measureless-Mind
When I discovered the site
Measureless Mind,
I thought, wow, what a great resource of Buddha's teachings! It is a
very valuable resource for all practitioners. Very well formatted, well
presented, all-rounded, well commented resource of Buddha's original
teachings in the Pali canon by Geoff (online nick: jnana in dharmawheel,
or nana in dhammawheel). Like Loppon Namdrol/Malcolm who I often quoted
from, Geoff (whose practice background is more of Mahamudra and
Theravada) is also a very knowledgeable Buddhist scholar-practitioner
and I often read his posts with much interest.
I sent Thusness two of the many articles (I spent time to read the
entire website from beginning to end and highly recommend others to do
so) and Thusness also commented, "Both the articles are very well
written. Put in the blog." and "that site is a great resource."
http://measurelessmind.ca/anattasanna.html
The Recognition of Selflessness (Anattasaññā)
Look at the world and see its emptiness Mogharāja, always mindful,
Eliminating the view of self, one goes beyond death.
One who views the world this way is not seen by the king of death.
— Sutta Nipāta 5.15, Mogharājamāṇavapucchā
The contemplation of selflessness is given in AN 10.60 Girimānanda Sutta:
Now what, Ānanda, is the recognition of selflessness? Here, Ānanda, a
monk, gone to the wilderness, to the root of a tree, or to an empty
place, discriminates thus: ‘The eye is not-self, forms are not-self;
the ear is not-self, sounds are not-self; the nose is not-self, odors
are not-self; the tongue is not-self, flavors are not-self; the body is
not-self, tactual objects are not-self; the mind is not-self,
phenomena are not-self.’ Thus he abides contemplating selflessness with
regard to the six internal and external sensory spheres. This, Ānanda,
is called the recognition of selflessness.
In practice, we need to be able to recognize this absence of self in
our immediate experience: When seeing, there is the coming together of
visible form, the eye, and visual consciousness. When hearing, there is
the coming together of sound, the ear, and auditory consciousness. When
touching, there is the coming together of tactual sensation, the body,
and tactile consciousness. When thinking, there is the thought, the
mind, and mental consciousness. These processes arise simply through
‘contact.’ When a sense faculty and a sensory object make contact, the
corresponding sensory consciousness arises. This entire process occurs
through specific conditionality (idappaccayatā). There is no
independent, fully autonomous agent or self controlling any of this.
An independent, autonomous self would, by definition, be:
- permanent
- satisfactory
- not prone to dis-ease
- fully self-determining (be in complete autonomous control of itself)
Thus, what is being negated is a permanent, satisfactory self which is
not prone to old age, sickness, and death. As SN 22.59 Pañcavaggiya
Sutta (abridged) states:
Monks, form, feeling, recognition, fabrications, and consciousness are
not-self. Were form, feeling, recognition, fabrications, or
consciousness self, then this form, feeling, recognition, fabrications,
and consciousness would not lead to dis-ease.
This criterion of dis-ease is the context for the following statement that:
None can have it of form, feeling, recognition, fabrications, or
consciousness: ‘Let my form, feeling, recognition, fabrications, or
consciousness be thus, let my form, feeling, recognition, fabrications,
or consciousness be not thus.’
By engaging in sustained, dedicated contemplation we find only
impermanent processes, conditionally arisen, and not fully
self-determining. First we clearly see that all conditioned phenomena of
body and mind are impermanent. Next we come to see that whatever is
impermanent is unsatisfactory in that it can provide no lasting
happiness. Then we realize that all impermanent, unsatisfactory
phenomena of body and mind are not-self — they can’t be the basis for a
self, which by definition would be permanent and (one would hope)
satisfactory. This relationship between the recognition of impermanence,
the recognition of unsatisfactoriness, and the recognition of
selflessness is illustrated in the following diagram.
With the recognition of selflessness there is an emptying out of both
the “subject” and “object” aspects of experience. We come to understand
that “I-making” and “mine-making” with regard to the mind and body as
well as all external representations is deluded. When the recognition of
selflessness is fully developed there is no longer any reification of
substantial referents to be experienced in relation to subjective
grasping. Whatever is seen is merely the seen (diṭṭhamatta). Whatever is
heard or sensed is merely the heard (sutamatta) and merely the sensed
(mutamatta). Whatever is known is merely the known (viññātamatta). This
is explained in Ud 1.10 Bāhiya Sutta:
‘The seen will be merely the seen, the heard will be merely the heard,
the sensed will be merely the sensed, the known will be merely the
known.’ This is how you should train, Bāhiya.
When, Bāhiya, for you the seen will be merely the seen, the heard will
be merely the heard, the sensed will be merely the sensed, the known
will be merely the known, then Bāhiya, you will not be that. When,
Bāhiya, you are not that, then Bāhiya, you will not be there. When,
Bāhiya, you are not there, then Bāhiya, you will be neither here nor
beyond nor between-the-two. Just this is the end of unsatisfactoriness.
When there is no self to be found one’s experience becomes very simple,
direct, and uncluttered. When seeing, there is the coming together of
visible form, the eye, and visual consciousness, that’s all. There is
no separate “seer.” The seer is entirely dependent upon the seen. There
can be no seer independent of the seen. There is no separate,
independent subject or self.
This is also the case for the sensory object. The “seen” is entirely
dependent upon the eye faculty and visual consciousness. There can be no
object seen independent of the eye faculty and cognition. This is the
case for all possible sensory objects. There is no separate,
independent sensory object.
The same holds true for sensory consciousness as well. “Seeing” is
entirely dependent upon the eye and visible form. There can be no seeing
independent of the eye and cognition. This is the case for all
possible sensory cognitions. There is no separate, independent sensory
consciousness.
It’s important to understand this experientially. Let’s take the
straightforward empirical experience of you looking at this screen right
now as an example. Conventionally speaking, you could describe the
experience as “I see the computer screen.” Another way of describing
this is that there’s a “seer” who “sees” the “seen.” But look at the
screen: are there really three independent and separate parts to your
experience? Or are “seer,” “sees,” and “seen,” just three conceptual
labels applied to this experience in which the three parts are entirely
interdependent?
The “seer,” “seen,” and “seeing” are all empty and insubstantial. The
eye faculty, visible form, and visual consciousness are all
interdependent aspects of the same experience. You can’t peel one away
and still have a sensory experience — there is no separation. AN 4.24
Kāḷakārāma Sutta:
Thus, monks, the Tathāgata does not conceive an [object] seen when
seeing what is to be seen. He does not conceive an unseen. He does not
conceive a to-be-seen. He does not conceive a seer.
He does not conceive an [object] heard when hearing what is to be heard.
He does not conceive an unheard. He does not conceive a to-be-heard.
He does not conceive a hearer.
He does not conceive an [object] sensed when sensing what is to be
sensed. He does not conceive an unsensed. He does not conceive a
to-be-sensed. He does not conceive a senser.
He does not conceive an [object] known when knowing what is to be known.
He does not conceive an unknown. He does not conceive a to-be-known.
He does not conceive a knower.
Sensory consciousness can’t be isolated as separate and independent.
Nor can any of these other interdependent phenomena. Even the
designations that we apply to these various phenomena are entirely
conventional, dependent designations. But this doesn’t mean that we
should now interpret our experience as being some sort of cosmic oneness
or unity consciousness or whatever one may want to call it. That's
just another empty, dependent label isn’t it? The whole point of this
analysis is to see the emptiness of all referents, and thereby stop
constructing and defining a “self.”
The purpose of correctly engaging in the contemplation of selflessness is stated in AN 7.49 Dutiyasaññā Sutta:
‘The recognition of selflessness in what is unsatisfactory, monks, when
developed and cultivated, is of great fruit and benefit; it merges
with the death-free, has the death-free as its end.’ Thus it was said.
In reference to what was it said?
Monks, when a monk’s mind frequently remains acquainted with the
recognition of selflessness in what is unsatisfactory, his mind is rid
of “I-making” and “mine-making” with regard to this conscious body and
externally with regard to all representations, and has transcended
conceit, is at peace, and is well liberated.
If, monks, when a monk’s mind frequently remains acquainted with the
recognition of selflessness in what is unsatisfactory, his mind is not
rid of “I-making” and “mine-making” with regard to this conscious body
and externally with regard to all representations, and has not
transcended conceit, is not at peace, and is not well liberated, then he
should know, ‘I have not developed the recognition of selflessness in
what is unsatisfactory, there is no stepwise distinction in me, I have
not obtained the strength of development.’ In that way he is fully
aware there. But if, monks, when a monk’s mind frequently remains
acquainted with the recognition of selflessness in what is
unsatisfactory, his mind is rid of “I-making” and “mine-making” with
regard to this conscious body and externally with regard to all
representations, and has transcended conceit, is at peace, and is well
liberated, then he should know, ‘I have developed the recognition of
selflessness in what is unsatisfactory, there is stepwise distinction
in me, I have obtained the strength of development.’ In that way he is
fully aware there.
‘The recognition of selflessness in what is unsatisfactory, monks, when
developed and cultivated, is of great fruit and benefit; it merges
with the death-free, has the death-free as its end.’ Thus it was said.
And in reference to this it was said.
Here we get to the heart of the matter, which is one of the most subtle
aspects of the Buddhadhamma. Simply stated: when ignorance ceases,
belief in self simultaneously ceases. And when there is no self to be
found, then there is no self to die or take birth. This right here is
“death-free.” And it is precisely this that the Buddha is declaring
when he says to Mogharāja:
Look at the world and see its emptiness Mogharāja, always mindful,
Eliminating the view of self, one goes beyond death.
One who views the world this way is not seen by the king of death.
When one completely abandons the underlying tendencies which give rise
to mistaken apprehensions of a self — any and all notions of “I am” —
then there is no self to die. This stilling of the “currents of
conceiving” over one’s imagined self, and the resulting peace that is
empty of birth, aging, and death, is straightforwardly presented in MN
140 Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta:
‘He has been stilled where the currents of conceiving do not flow. And
when the currents of conceiving do not flow, he is said to be a sage at
peace.’ Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said?
Monk, “I am” is a conceiving. “I am this” is a conceiving. “I shall be”
is a conceiving. “I shall not be” ... “I shall be possessed of form”
... “I shall be formless” ... “I shall be percipient” ... “I shall be
non-percipient” ... “I shall be neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient”
is a conceiving. Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a cancer,
conceiving is an arrow. By going beyond all conceiving, monk, he is said
to be a sage at peace.
Furthermore, a sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die. He
is unagitated, and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he
would be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not aging, how could he
die? Not dying, how could he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what
will he long?
So it was in reference to this that it was said, ‘He has been stilled
where the currents of conceiving do not flow. And when the currents of
conceiving do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.’
Truly, “a sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die.” In
this way, when ignorance ceases, the entire complex of conditioned
arising bound up with dissatisfaction also ceases. When all traces of
“I-making” and “mine-making” are abandoned through the fully integrated
threefold training of ethical conduct, meditation, and discernment,
just this is dispassion (virāga). Just this is cessation (nirodha).
Just this is extinguishment (nibbāna). Just this is without outflows
(anāsava). Just this is not-born (ajāta), not-become (abhūta), not-made
(akata), not-fabricated (asaṅkhata), endless (ananta), indestructible
(apalokita), and yes, death-free (amata). It is freedom (mutti).
The Recognition of Selflessness and the Seven Factors of Awakening (Satta Bojjhaṅgā)
Sustained, dedicated practice of the recognition of selflessness will
gradually create the optimal conditions for the arising of all seven
factors of awakening. SN 46.73 Anatta Sutta (abridged):
Here monks, a monk develops the awakening factor of mindfulness
accompanied by the recognition of selflessness in what is
unsatisfactory, dependent upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation,
resulting in letting go. He develops the awakening factor of
dhamma-investigation accompanied by the recognition of selflessness in
what is unsatisfactory, dependent upon seclusion, dispassion, and
cessation, resulting in letting go. He develops the awakening factor of
energy accompanied by the recognition of selflessness in what is
unsatisfactory, dependent upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation,
resulting in letting go. He develops the awakening factor of joy
accompanied by the recognition of selflessness in what is
unsatisfactory, dependent upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation,
resulting in letting go. He develops the awakening factor of tranquility
accompanied by the recognition of selflessness in what is
unsatisfactory, dependent upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation,
resulting in letting go. He develops the awakening factor of meditative
composure accompanied by the recognition of selflessness in what is
unsatisfactory, dependent upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation,
resulting in letting go. He develops the awakening factor of equanimity
accompanied by the recognition of selflessness in what is
unsatisfactory, dependent upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation,
resulting in letting go.
It is in this way that the recognition of selflessness in what is
unsatisfactory is developed and cultivated so that it is of great fruit
and benefit. It is in this way that the recognition of selflessness in
what is unsatisfactory is developed and cultivated so that one of two
fruits is to be expected: either final gnosis in this very life or, if
there is a residue of clinging, the state of nonreturning. It is in this
way that the recognition of selflessness in what is unsatisfactory is
developed and cultivated so that it leads to great good. It is in this
way that the recognition of selflessness in what is unsatisfactory is
developed and cultivated so that it leads to great security from
bondage. It is in this way that the recognition of selflessness in what
is unsatisfactory is developed and cultivated so that it leads to a
great sense of urgency. It is in this way that the recognition of
selflessness in what is unsatisfactory is developed and cultivated so
that it leads to dwelling in great comfort.
http://measurelessmind.ca/nirodhasanna.html
The Recognition of Cessation (Nirodhasaññā)
For whom there is neither a far shore,
Nor a near shore, nor both,
Who is free from distress, without ties,
Him I call a brāhmaṇa.
— Dhammapada 385
When the recognition of dispassion is fully developed and realized, and
with no self to be found, nothing to be identified with, one realizes
the gnosis and vision of liberation (vimuttiñāṇadassana). This is
non-referential inner peace (ajjhattasanti). This is the full
recognition of cessation. AN 10.60 Girimānanda Sutta:
Now what, Ānanda, is the recognition of cessation? Here, Ānanda, a
monk, gone to the wilderness, to the root of a tree, or to an empty
place, discriminates thus: ‘This is peace, this is excellent, that is:
the calming of all fabrications, the release of all acquisitions, the
elimination of craving, cessation, nibbāna.’ This, Ānanda, is called
the recognition of cessation.
This is the complete absence of agitation (calita natthi). Ud 8.4 Nibbāna Sutta:
There being no agitation, there is tranquility. There being
tranquility, there is no inclination. There being no inclination, there
is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no
passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there
is neither a here nor a beyond nor a between-the-two. Just this is the
end of unsatisfactoriness.
This is the calming of all specific fabrication and volitional intention. MN 140 Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta:
One does not form any specific fabrication or volitional intention
towards either existence or non-existence. Not forming any specific
fabrication or volitional intention towards either existence or
non-existence, he does not cling to anything in this world. Not
clinging, he is not excited. Unexcited, he personally attains complete
nibbāna. He discerns that, ‘Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled,
done is what had to be done, there is nothing further here.’
This is the freedom of absence which is revealed through the complete recognition of selflessness. Ud 1.10 Bāhiya Sutta:
‘The seen will be merely the seen, the heard will be merely the heard,
the sensed will be merely the sensed, the known will be merely the
known.’ This is how you should train, Bāhiya.
When, Bāhiya, for you the seen will be merely the seen, the heard will
be merely the heard, the sensed will be merely the sensed, the known
will be merely the known, then Bāhiya, you will not be that. When,
Bāhiya, you are not that, then Bāhiya, you will not be there. When,
Bāhiya, you are not there, then Bāhiya, you will be neither here nor
beyond nor between-the-two. Just this is the end of unsatisfactoriness.
This is noble liberation which is the elimination of craving and clinging. MN 106 Āneñjasappāya Sutta:
This is death-free, namely, the liberation of mind through not clinging.
This is the effortless clarity of consciousness which is non-abiding
and not established (appatiṭṭha viññāṇa). SN 22.53 Upaya Sutta:
When that consciousness is not established, not increasing, not
concocting, it is liberated. Being liberated, it is steady. Being
steady, it is content. Being content, he is not excited. Unexcited, he
personally attains complete nibbāna. He discerns that, ‘Birth is ended,
the holy life fulfilled, done is what had to be done, there is nothing
further here.’
There is no more seeking of any kind. There is no more personal agenda.
There is no identifying with any phenomena or turning anything into a
fixed reference point. There is no “here” nor “beyond” nor
“between-the-two.”
The awakened mind is measureless (appamāṇacetasa), free from any sort
of measuring (pamāṇa). In evocative terms, an awakened one is deep
(gambhīra), boundless (appameyya), and fathomless (duppariyogāḷha).
Utterly free from any reference to specifically fabricated consciousness
(viññāṇasaṅkhayavimutta). “Gone” (atthaṅgata), the measureless mind is
untraceable (ananuvejja) even here and now. It doesn’t abide in the
head, or in the body, or anywhere else for that matter. It doesn’t have
size or shape. It’s not an object or a subject.
Just as the sky is formless and non-illustrative, the measureless mind
is non-illustrative and non-indicative (anidassana). This effortless
clarity is unmediated by any specific fabrication or volitional
intention. It is unaffected knowing: The seen is merely the seen
(diṭṭhamatta). The heard is merely the heard (sutamatta). The sensed is
merely the sensed (mutamatta). The known is merely the known
(viññātamatta). But there is no
you there. Of course, this
liberating gnosis and vision can’t adequately be pointed out or
indicated by words alone. It is to be individually experienced (paccatta
veditabba).
The Recognition of Cessation and the Seven Factors of Awakening (Satta Bojjhaṅgā)
Sustained, dedicated practice of the recognition of cessation will
gradually create the optimal conditions for the arising of all seven
factors of awakening. SN 46.76 Nirodha Sutta (abridged):
Here monks, a monk develops the awakening factor of mindfulness
accompanied by the recognition of cessation, dependent upon seclusion,
dispassion, and cessation, resulting in letting go. He develops the
awakening factor of dhamma-investigation accompanied by the recognition
of cessation, dependent upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation,
resulting in letting go. He develops the awakening factor of energy
accompanied by the recognition of cessation, dependent upon seclusion,
dispassion, and cessation, resulting in letting go. He develops the
awakening factor of joy accompanied by the recognition of cessation,
dependent upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, resulting in
letting go. He develops the awakening factor of tranquility accompanied
by the recognition of cessation, dependent upon seclusion, dispassion,
and cessation, resulting in letting go. He develops the awakening
factor of meditative composure accompanied by the recognition of
cessation, dependent upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation,
resulting in letting go. He develops the awakening factor of equanimity
accompanied by the recognition of cessation, dependent upon seclusion,
dispassion, and cessation, resulting in letting go.
It is in this way that the recognition of cessation is developed and
cultivated so that it is of great fruit and benefit. It is in this way
that the recognition of cessation is developed and cultivated so that
one of two fruits is to be expected: either final gnosis in this very
life or, if there is a residue of clinging, the state of nonreturning.
It is in this way that the recognition of cessation is developed and
cultivated so that it leads to great good. It is in this way that the
recognition of cessation is developed and cultivated so that it leads to
great security from bondage. It is in this way that the recognition of
cessation is developed and cultivated so that it leads to a great
sense of urgency. It is in this way that the recognition of cessation
is developed and cultivated so that it leads to dwelling in great
comfort.
..............
Update 2021:
I
may have misread you. I pasted above explaining why anatta and D.O. and
emptiness is crucial to "liberation", but if you are asking why is John
Tan and myself correct about the definition of "arahantship", then the
answer is clear: having read thousands of pages of scriptures myself, I
have seen Buddha criticised the view of a metaphysical, infinite Self
multiple times (see
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../anatta-not-self-or...
), and would even use harsh words to criticise/rebuke his monks who
held a Self view with regards to consciousness (see sutta on Bhikkhu
Sati)
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Anything lesser than Thusness Stage 5 does not even meet the criteria of scriptural 'stream entry', let alone Arahantship.
Soh: Btw u saw my email regarding teacher chen summary
Thusness: i do not know
Thusness: i don't want to comment on teacher chen
Thusness: it is disrespectful
Thusness: what summary
Thusness: the diagram?
Soh: He says hinayana realise anatta, then mahayana arise the realization of emptiness
Thusness: no
Soh: Then finally the realization of equality arise
Thusness: he sees hinayana as "I am"
Soh: That's like what u said right I mean sounds like the process he went through
Soh: Oic..
Thusness signed in.
Soh: The diagram sounds like a process he went through himself
Thusness: Yeah
Thusness: like polishing mirror
Soh: What u mean
Thusness:
证悟觉体 (realizing the substance of awareness) as the final destination of
theravada practice (comments by Soh: I have seen more than one Mahayana
teacher made this mistaken equation of theravada as I AM and mahayana
as One Mind)
Thusness: maybe that is the practice and realization in modern time
Thusness: but not during Buddha's time i am sure.
Soh: I see
Thusness: for anyone talking about that will kena (get scolded) from Buddha...lol
Soh: Lol
Thusness: Theravada is the realisation of anatta
Thusness: that must be very clear
Thusness: it is not substantialist non dual
Soh: Oic..
Thusness: only the clarity of anatta and clearly seeing what it means is not clear
Thusness: into the second fold emptiness
Thusness: that is 'seeing' the true meaning of the view
Thusness: one can realize anatta and experience no-mind, no agent
Thusness: but not depth in the view
Soh:
Oic.. Btw pegembara is from theravada and the phena sutta which he
quotes is also from pali canon... I think the clarity of phena sutta on
the secondfold emptiness is on par with the prajnaparamita sutras
Thusness: yet there is no direct insight of anatta
Soh:
Also I'm not sure about this but apparently different arhats can have
different degree of insight into emptiness. Sariputra is known as "jie
kong di yi" (foremost in understanding emptiness).. But I guess its true
that arhats mostly stress on anatta
Soh: Oic
Thusness: of course.
Soh: I see..
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