Showing posts with label Stian. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Stian. Show all posts
Two things for sharing today

1) Someone lurking in the AtR group just realised anatta recently after being stuck in I AM for many years, then went into nondual and anatta. I'll let him post about it on his own, or not, as he wishes.

2) Stian posted something in his group https://www.facebook.com/groups/1206265356138924/ Idappaccayata which John and I like, sharing it here:

(Also related, read this Buddha's teaching:

https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi

Consciousness is named after the conditions that give rise to it.
)

Try this. Go slow. Read the comments. Then try again. Slowly.
*
So I am seeing
Let’s use it to investigate dependent arising
Contact
Three factors; what are they?
Eye, form & visual awareness
What does the Buddha say?
"Visual awareness arises dependent
On eye & form"
So, while closely contemplating seeing, consider right now:
"The conditions for visual awareness are currently complete,
thus I have this visual awareness
About this visual awareness, depending on eyes,
Were these eyes now to disappear—when they do eventually disappear—then, this visual awareness, dependent on eyes, would stop
And,
also for this visual awareness—dependent on *form*—
Suddenly, would there be no form at all,
then too,
this visual awareness—dependent on form—would stop"
"So this visual awareness is dependent,
And not independent
Such is its arising, such is its ceasing"
Dependent on eye & form
Arises visual awareness
"It simply arises & ceases 'like so'"
"'So' it comes; 'so' it goes"

Comments

  • 📷Active NowStian Gudmundsen Høiland📷 So we see that it has a condition, on account of which presence it arises and absence it ceases.

    From having a condition, we see it is impermanent: If in response to the presence of the condition it arises, then in response to the absence of the condition it ceases. Having arisen dependent on a cause, it is thus impermanent, since—having arisen *in dependence* on the presence of the cause—the absence of the cause entails its cessation.

    Consider closely this part:

    > If in response to the presence of the condition it arises...

    Why is it that we get from that the consequence of:

    > ... then in response to the absence of the condition it ceases.

    It is because the arising is bound to the state of presence (of the condition). When the condition is no longer present, then—since it arose *dependent* on (the presence of) that condition—it will thus cease.

    So, "arising with a cause" necessitates "cessation when the cause disappears".

    What becomes understood here is called impermanence, and when that understanding goes even further what is understood is called "conditionedness".2
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  • 📷Active NowStian Gudmundsen Høiland📷 Being a conditioned thing, it is something "out from control". Dukkha, anatta.

    ... it is something completely determined by conditions—there is no "free" factor beside conditions that could otherwise overrule its conditions and make it arise or cease. In fact, such a thing would just be... a condition.

    Grasping/understanding conditionedness is very close to what is called dispassion. The coming and going of things—and quite so by themselves—keeps the mind from fascinating about things as-if they were permanent and could be controlled by a single entity (this "as-if" attitude is quite unconscious and hidden from us), and this leads to a hands-off approach, i.e. doesn’t grasp and cling.

    Emptiness, here, very specifically means what one intuits as the lack of "being worthy of" or "deserving" grasping and clinging. By understanding conditionedness one intuits the reason of not deserving grasping and not being worthy of clinging. This intuited "quality" lies very close to what is called dukkha and anatta. What one thus intuits or understands is called "(the state of) being void", but which we get translated as "emptiness". The result of understanding how (thus conditioned) things (i.e. things that are conditioned as such, i.e. arises dependent on condition, i.e. is conditionally arisen, i.e. conditioned arising) are void is called many things, for example "dispassion". This dispassion is tantamount to non-involvement (atammayata?) with conditioned things, a slight turning away of the mind from conditioned things, which leads to what is called nibbāna and asaṅkhata.

    Thus, by completely understanding dependent arising and conditionedness, the mind becomes dispassionate and does not grasp nor cling to anything conditioned. Consciousness naturally becoming calm and resting through dispassion, ceases from further movements of mind and mental activity.
    By completely understanding the meaning of "conditioned", one finally comes to direct experience of what is called "unconditioned" (& "nirvana").3
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  • 📷Active NowStian Gudmundsen Høiland📷 In short, and about the thought "I am":

    When you contemplate dependent arising & ceasing of seeing (or "eye-contact"), you are unwittingly replacing the assumption of an agent of seeing.

    Somewhere in your psyche there is a belief-ing that seeing is an act performed by an agent.

    When you consider that this visual awareness right here depends on eye & form and that with this eye & form there is this visual awareness and that without this eye there would be no visual awareness and that without this form there would be no visual awareness, then "I am" with regards to seeing stops for as long as you remain in that understanding; there is then no "I am seeing", there is only seeing, no "I am" doing the seeing.

    > ... When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two.

    > When a noble disciple has clearly seen with right wisdom this dependent origination and these dependently originated phenomena as they are, it’s impossible for them to turn back to the past, thinking: ‘Did I exist in the past? Did I not exist in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? After being what, what did I become in the past?’ Or to turn forward to the future, thinking: ‘Will I exist in the future? Will I not exist in the future? What will I be in the future? How will I be in the future? After being what, what will I become in the future?’ Or to be undecided about the present, thinking: ‘Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? This sentient being—where did it come from? And where will it go?’4
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  • 📷Active NowStian Gudmundsen Høiland📷 Now try it again. Slowly this time.
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  • 📷Active NowStian Gudmundsen Høiland📷 Did anyone at least get to the point where it clicks that without eye or without form visual awareness co-ceases (i.e. impermanence)?
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Stian Gudmundsen Høiland

Arising in dependence on mind means it does not arise independent of mind. This qualifies phenomena with “mindness”, which is very different from how we usually take it. This leads me to saying that depending on mind means it does not arise in reality, since reality is held to be mind-independence.

But arising in dependence, sheerly that, means there is no source or ground, and there is no giving rise. When we hear the sound of a chirping bird, does it arise from the bird? No. Does it arise from the ear? No. Does it arise from awareness? No.
There is no singular, final source or ariser, nothing at all gives rise to it, not even “the collection of conditions”, since a collection of non-arisers do not together make an ariser. It is difficult to understand that this means that the sound arises dependently.
Hi AEN,

Greg commented on Stian's A raw note on emptiness yesterday.  I like Stian's note and Greg's comments very much, they are all very insightful.   So just posted it here to share with readers.

Do go through it and share your thoughts.  Relate your experiences and insights about it.   Happy reading!
  

A raw note on emptiness:
Emptiness is not the way things are, because things are not any way at all. And that is emptiness.

The emptiness doctrine *do* explain the way things are, meaning the ontological status and essential nature of everything, but instead of asserting—as one might have expected—an actual way that things are, the doctrine questions being any which way.

A thing's 'being' is what it is regardless of anything else. It is what one would eventually find if one stripped something down to its bare minimum—the atomic (indivisible) core which ultimately identifies the thing.  The emptiness doctrine is a completely uncompromising critique of regarding 'being' like this—as intrinsic, inherent self-identity.

So, according to the emptiness doctrine, the way things really are is that they are not, in their final, inner-most nature or being, any which way. But this does not preclude things from being any particular way, only that they cannot *be* in a static, fixed, unchangeable or indivisible way.

Since we can not know the ultimate nature or being of something—because it has no such final identity—we can only know the thing in its ordinary, conventional appearance to us, and that IS what the thing "is".

Emptiness, while posing as some sort of ultimate nature or being or identity, is actually the dissolving of the notion of ultimate nature or being (noun), leaving only the functional, interpenetrating 'going-on' or 'verbing' of the universe.


Greg's comments:
I agree with a lot of the OP. But I also agree with some the others here that your "raw note" allows ultimacy in the door. Ultimacy and true nature are exactly what the emptiness teachings should critique.

Here is a close, logical look at it. From your OP:

"So, according to the emptiness doctrine, the way things really are is that they are not, in their final, inner-most nature or being, any which way."

The placement of the "NOT" turns out to be very important!

There is a subtle logical issue here that seems obscure, but which makes a big difference. The issue is between "external" or "verbally-bound" or non-presuppositional versus "internal," or "nominally-bound" or presuppositional negation.

Let's use an example. There are two ways (at least) of negating a simple sentence.

Let's say the sentence is:

X is f.

One way to negate it is:

X is -f.

The other way is:

-(X is f).  Or, "It's not the case that X is f."

A more concrete example:

(S1) "The number seven is yellow."

 How can we negate S1? There are several ways.

So here is one kind of negation. It is an internal, nominally bound, pressuppositional negation.  The "NOT" is _inside_ the sentence, modifying the noun or adjective:

(Internal negation of S1) "The number seven is NOT yellow (it is blue)."

Notice that this kind of negation maintains the assumption that the number seven has a color.

Here is the other kind of negation. It is external, verbally bound, non-presuppositional. The "NOT" modifies the overall verb of the sentence:

(External negation of S1) "It's not the case that the number seven is yellow (colors don't apply to it at all)."

OK, so back to Stian's OP:

(Sop) "So, according to the emptiness doctrine, the way things really are is that they are not, in their final, inner-most nature or being, any which way."

Stian's statement (Sop) should be an external negation. It should cancel our presuppostions about things having natures at all. Instead (Sop) is an internal negation. It maintains the presupposition that things have a final, inner-most nature - it just says that the final nature is not what we thought. But in the emptiness teaching, this is what needs to go. What needs to get critiqued is the VERY IDEA of a final, inner-most nature. The very idea makes no sense.

Here is one possible "external" rephrasing of Stian's sentence, which cancels what should be cancelled:

(Gop) "So, according to the emptiness teachings, there is no way that things really are. The very idea of a final, innher-most nature is incoherent." Of course we need both kinds of negation. But we should be careful about where we are retaining presuppositions that we want to refute.....