• ~ Buddhism: Wisdom Bliss ~ The nature of the separate self, duality
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  • 24 Oct `07, 9:12AM
    Hi AEN,
    
    It is a a good summary attempted to link non-dual experience (enlightenment) to the basic teachings of Buddha -- the dharma seals, 5 aggregates, 18 dhatus, dependent origination and emptiness nature. Many tend to ignore the basics and are easily fascinated by the ‘deeper and more profound’ teachings of Buddhism. This is a bad habit and this attitude also blinds us from experiencing the profundity of Buddha’s wisdom.
    
    The experience of enlightenment (non-duality) is found all over the place in the most basic teachings of Buddha. In fact the basic is most significant. Anyone that experienced non-duality will realize the precise description when Buddha taught the 5 aggregates. With the teaching of anatta of the 5 aggregates Buddha is, in truth, conveying an experience of how enlightenment is like while propensity is still in action taking the form of mental formation; but even with the presence of mental formation and perceptions, that does not make the experience of non-duality any less valuable. Subsequent stages of non-dual experience requires the freeing of the mental-construct-superimposition on ‘what is’. It turns out that when a non-dualist is thoroughly free from mental construction and the habitual tendency to divide wholeness, he is undergoing an experiential shift from seeing reality as the 5 aggregates into the raw experience of 18 dhatus. This ultimate experience of purity also reveals that Consciousness is indeed, the All.
    
    You spoke of the DO of all phenomenon, any idea how it helps and what role it plays in the experience of non-duality? Why Buddha placed such importance in it?
• ~ Buddhism: Wisdom Bliss ~ Very happy to know about this forum
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  • 13 Oct `07, 9:30PM
    Welcome!
• ~ Buddhism: Wisdom Bliss ~ Are they still Buddhists without Karma and other fantastics?
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  • 06 Oct `07, 2:28PM

    Originally posted by january:
    Stevenson published only for the academic and scientific community, and his over 200 articles and several books—densely packed with research details and academic argument—are in places difficult for the average reader to follow. His research, over 3,000 study cases, provides evidence suggestive of reincarnation,[b]though he himself was always careful to refer to them as "cases suggestive of reincarnation" or "cases of the reincarnation type." [8]
    
    Professor Stevenson himself recognized a problem with his argument for reincarnation: the absence of any evidence of a physical process by which a personality could survive death and travel to another body.[9] Further, some have questioned his objectivity in drawing conclusions from his research.
    [/b]

    The difference is that although Dr. Stevenson is academically qualified, he is also well aware of the limitations of the scientific method. He offered careful
    and respectful cases that suggest the possibility of reincarnation and tried to be as unbiased as possible; but many that are neither qualified academically nor scientifically just dismissed them outright. How sad and ignorant. I write out of my respect for him so that his effort will not be wasted and distorted, you need not reply.
• ~ Buddhism: Wisdom Bliss ~ Are they still Buddhists without Karma and other fantastics?
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  • 06 Oct `07, 2:08PM

    Originally posted by longchen:

    Hello People,
    
    I think karma really exist.
    
    Being able to trace the events into past lives, allows me to see the causes of my current conditions and difficulties. For example, I can see who my wife is in a previous life and why she is associated with me in this life. I also know certain people that i encounters in this life and how are they linked to me in previous life.
    
    Sometimes, I really regret being so foolish in the past. They are really giving me alot of current life obstacles.
    
    I think the precepts laid down by Buddha is a super foresight of his. The precepts can prevent one from getting negative consequences. However I think, at times, karma can also be acrued by being swept by life events and tides. Karma is indeed an extremely complex dynamics.
    
    Just a sharing.
    
    Buddha's wisdom is profound.

    Indeed Longchen,
    
    When we practice, we will realise the depth of Buddha's precision in the description of non-dual experiences and the workings of karma. Blessed are those that can have authentic experiences to verify Buddha's words,. Be steadfast in your practice and be strong even when there is setback. Good Luck!

• ~ Buddhism: Wisdom Bliss ~ The nature of the separate self, duality
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  • 10 Nov `07, 2:51PM

    Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

    Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
    
    No amount of positive thinking can make you be liberated at all times. Liberation comes from seeing our true nature. Even if you are a person with a v care-free, take-it-easy kind of perspective, you cannot therefore by freed from all distresses and the pain of sickness, death, etc.
    
    In Buddhism, there are 8 kinds of distresses that we go through. See http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol4no1a.htm
    
    The fundamental point here is that, without liberating from the basic dualistic assumption of subject-object, you will always be trapped in tanha (desire), and the 2nd noble truth states that tanha (desire) causes suffering (such as lack, fear, anxiety, and dissatisfaction, etc).
    
    What kinds of desires? There are three kinds. Desire for sense pleasure (kama tanha), desire to become (bhava tanha) and desire to get rid of (vibhava tanha).
    
    The problem is that when we desire something, lets say sense pleasure, the more we seek, the wider we split the subject and the object (and as you know there really is no subject apart from object), the more painful and dissatisfactory it is. We then become discontent with life as it is, we cannot see that what is arising now is already self-perfected as it is, we cannot see that all there is is simply conditioned arising -- and a perfect expression of our primordial nature, our Buddha Nature.
    
    Similarly, if something unpleasurable arises, we try to widen the gap between subject and object, we try to shut off, manipulate, get rid of the undesired object from a phantom subject (you) which will not work because there is really no such thing as a subject-object split. There only is the universe manifesting as it is in itself, conditioned arising, a mere happening that happens to no-one. Whatever arises at that moment, is as it is. If pain arises, it is not 'your pain' from 'your body'. The universe is pain and it is happening to no one because there is no self apart from manifestation.
    
    And the problem of clinging to a desired object then becomes that it is ultimately impermanent, and there is no way that a 'subject' (which never existed) can grasp onto the 'object', since it is empty and ungraspable (utterly transient and ephemeral), being merely only conditioned arising, the aggregation of causes and conditions, and having no reality apart from it.
    
    If you see a colourful flower and a dog and an insect too sees it, you and the dog and the ant are not going to see the same things. The dog is only going to see black and white. Why? Because all there is is conditioned arising, merely the aggregation of causes and conditions, having no reality apart from it! Whatever arises is the whole universe manifesting as that moment. The nature of the flower is Empty.
    
    If we can understand the the nature of the object we are seeking is in essence empty of any inherent existence, being merely conditioned arising, and that the subject-object relationship is false, there will be complete resting and contentment in the moment of arising. You will not fall under the false dualistic relationship of a 'subject' trying to manipulate the 'external universe', trying to get away from or stop/manipulate what is presently arising, trying to get something better than what is here, trying to shut off yourself from the world, etc.
    
    It is seen that all there is is conditioned arising -- that what you are is simply the scenery, sound of bird chirping, sound of keyboard typing, words appearing on the screen.. That is your nature -- conditioned arising that is empty of any fixed forms, shapes, attributes, etc. Emptiness that has a luminous heart giving rise to infinite potentiality.
    
    There are lots of various descriptions of our Buddha Nature -- all pervading, brighter than a thousand suns, mirror-like, indestructible. And all conditioned arising is an expression of the unconditioned Buddha Nature. All that is arising is the Buddha. They are all your pristine awareness at that moment with its nature empty -- never the same and never remain (having no existence and reality apart from conditioned arising), nothing apart from the crystal clear manifestation of appearances. Completely and fully real and gone.
    
    A bird is chirping happily outside... just that sound. The whole universe is just that sound. Completely real, but never staying... gone as it arises. Merely a conditioned manifestation that is empty.
    
    Just like patterns of clouds appearing in the sky -- they are all conditioned arising.
    
    ...We call it weather, but what is it really? Wind. Rain. Clouds slowly parting. Not the words spoken about it, but just this darkening, blowing, pounding and wetting, and then lightening up, blue sky appearing amid darkness, and sunshine sparkling on wet grasses and leaves. In a little while there'll be frost, snow and ice covers. And then warming again, melting, oozing water everywhere. On an early spring day the dirt road sparkles with streams of wet silver. So—what is weather other than this incessant change of earthly conditions and all the human thoughts, feelings and undertakings influenced by it? Like and dislike. Depression and elation. Creation and destruction. An ongoing, ever-changing stream of happenings abiding nowhere. No real entity weather exists anywhere except in thinking and talking about it....
    
    ...Now, is there such an entity as me or I? Or is it just like the weather—an ongoing, ever-changing stream of ideas, images, memories, projections, likes and dislikes, creation and destruction, that thought keeps calling I, me, Toni, and thereby solidifying what is evanescent?...
    
    ...How are we to come upon the truth if separateness is taken so much for granted, feels so commonsense?
    The difficulty is not insurmountable. Wholeness, our true being, is here all the time, like the sun behind the clouds. Light is here in spite of cloud cover.
    What makes up the clouds?... (see Emptiness and No-Self)
    
    All gain and loss is also simply that -- conditioned arising. The sense of a 'controller' is let go of, no 'self' is in control. This does not mean we must not exert effort to get good exam results (we must exert our fullest effort), it just means that gain and loss must be seen as conditioned arising.
    
    [/url]

    You summarized very well.
    
    
• ~ Buddhism: Wisdom Bliss ~ A nightmare
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  • 03 Nov `07, 9:29AM

    Originally posted by JonLS:

    It's 5am, I've just awoken out of a nightmare and got up out of bed to post this while it's still fresh in my experience, in my memory.
    
    In the nightmare I'm walking down some stairs with a female beside me, we start going around the corner, when suddenly, I see the hands and fingers of the female severed from her body and fall to the ground. I don't see what happened or who did it, but instinct has me turning around and going in the opposite direction. I get out of the stairwell and am in the hall when I pass some more stairs and I notice a person coming down those stairs with a large razor-sharp blade in his hand. I don't stop, I keep walking AWAY from this person. But suddenly the dream has turned really intense and this wakes me up.
    
    This is very much like what happened to me in real life. Life was so difficult, so intense, there was so much suffering from all the thoughts I was having that I was "forced" to wake up. But it was not due to a psycho with a knife, it was due to my own thoughts of growing old, getting sick and dying. This is what forced me out of the dream.
    
    But I'd like to get back to the exact moment when I woke up out of the dream. Because at that very instant, I had a major insight. I realized fully that the female in the stairwell, the stairwell itself, and myself (in the dream) arose within me, within the dream. I was the consciousness in which all of this dream was taking place.
    
    Of course it wasn't difficult to "see" that what I was, was also, the consciousness in which all of this so called life is arising also. Even all the gurus and their sites that I frequent on the internet, all are arising from within me. It was also immediately clear that the 3 states, dreaming, waking, sleeping, all arose within me also.
    
    What is also understood is that you are going to read and take this in at an intellectual level, but what happened upon my "awakening" from the dream was not at the intellectual level. It was much deeper than that. It was at the level of insight, which involves my whole being.
    
    But the absolute point of this post has to be and remains who or what I am. I am the consciousness in which this post is arising. I am the consciousness that is typing and reading this post.

    Consciousness also wants us to realise the process of getting old, sick and death and why the one has become the many. Change and manifestation are the all, therefore Consciousness are has always been the all. The nature is empty.
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  • 03 Nov `07, 9:19AM

    Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

    There is really quite some interesting discussions going on lately in there.

    I do not know what to say.
    Just want to kok ur head until it burst!
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  • 03 Nov `07, 9:13AM

    Originally posted by paperflower:
    sorry i'm out of topic here...
    i haven't been sitting-meditating for awhile and since i find that i'm exhausted with piles of work and chores, i took an alternative route which is meditating in daily living.

    Hi Paperflower,
    
    With all our will and effort, we are unable to get our mind to rest. But when we are tired, we let go and rest naturally. Tiredness and let go if viewed correctly are one. So when Buddha said "Life is suffering", it is a great wisdom -- nothing pessimistic or negative. Our mind filter very quickly and we may missed the 'great condition' for letting go to arise. So treasure this "exhausted", it can convey very valuable message in time to come. my 2 cents.

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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

All gain and loss is also simply that -- conditioned arising. The sense of a 'controller' is let go of, no 'self' is in control. This does not mean we must not exert effort to get good exam results (we must exert our fullest effort), it just means that gain and loss must be seen as conditioned arising.

Practice is about losing oneself and all merely happens as if 'you' never existed. One must eventually undergo a complete psychological death, and be completely dead in the living. As the saying goes -- die before you die. At that moment, deep dreamless sleep where the self completely subsides, is no longer different from conscious state. There is no more attachment, no more unwillingness and grasping to the need to 'exist' consciously. One requires fearlessness to dissolve this habit of 'self-preservation'... and when that is done, samatha and insight becomes one.

• • It's okie. U can passed it to Isis...Just bought 5 books by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.
• ~ Buddhism: Wisdom Bliss ~ The nature of the separate self, duality
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  • 12 Nov `07, 10:23AM

    Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

    Just saw something similar by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, in Advice On Presence And Awareness
    
    ...For this reason Padma Sambhava said: 'the mind is the creator of Samsara and of Nirvana. Outside the mind there exists neither Samsara nor Nirvana. 'Having thus established that the basis of Samsara and Nirvana is the mind, it follows that all that seems concrete in the world, and all the seeming solidity of beings themselves, is nothing but an illusory vision of one's own mind.
    
    Just as a person who has a 'bile' disease sees a shell as being yellow even if one can see objectively that that is not its true color, so in just the same way, as a result of the particular karmic causes of sentient beings, the various illusory visions manifest. Thus, if one were to meet a being of each of the six states of existence on the bank of the same river, they would not see that river in the same way, since they each would have different karmic causes. The beings of the hot hells would see the river as fire; those of the cold hells would see it as ice; beings of the hungry ghost realm would see the river as blood and pus; aquatic animals would see it as an environment to live in; human beings would see the river as water to drink; while the demi-gods would see it as weapons, and the gods as nectar. This shows that in reality nothing exists as concrete and objective. Therefore, understanding that the root of Samsara is truly the mind, one should set out to pull up the root. Recognizing that the mind itself is the essence of Enlightenment one attains liberation. Thus, being aware that the basis of Samsara and Nirvana is only the mind, one takes the decision to practice....

    Reality here refers to phenomena (experiential reality) and in religious parlance, they are referred to as forms, maya or appearances. When we talk about 'sound', we are not refering to the physical processes of how the air molecules hit our ear drums. It is the sudden, out of nowhere, the magical birth of ‘sound’ that we are exploring. This becomes more obvious when we inquire into sight -- our most powerful sense. The question of how all those inverted images in our retina are able to give rise to the sensation of an 'external' world that is so vividly real, full of colors and motion is puzzling. Maya is as amazing as our buddha nature...
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  • 11 Nov `07, 4:49PM

    Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

    All gain and loss is also simply that -- conditioned arising. The sense of a 'controller' is let go of, no 'self' is in control. This does not mean we must not exert effort to get good exam results (we must exert our fullest effort), it just means that gain and loss must be seen as conditioned arising.

    The understanding 'of arising as yuan' must be factored to all aspects of our lives. Applying this insight to the six stages of my experiences, you must see them not as indications of stages at all. There are no higher or lower stages, all merely serves as conditions for ‘new insight’ to arise. A practitioner may start from training himself to ‘witness’ the empty nature of phenomena (stage 6) yet still having a clear distinction of observer and observed being dual; but the gradual loosening of ‘solidity’ of all internal or external phenomena having no inherent existence will slowly leads to the non-dual experience.
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  • 11 Nov `07, 4:38PM

    Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

    A bird is chirping happily outside... just that sound. The whole universe is just that sound. Completely real, but never staying... gone as it arises. Merely a conditioned manifestation that is empty.
    …
    In reality, there only is the universe manifesting as it is in itself, conditioned arising, a mere happening that happens to no-one. Whatever arises at that moment, is as it is. If pain arises, it is not 'your pain' from 'your body'. The universe is pain and it is happening to no one because there is no self apart from manifestation.

    An extra point:
    
    Here the highlight must not only be the empty nature of ‘sound’ alone, that luminosity as ‘sound’ must similarly be emphasized. When we stripped-off the symbolic representation of ‘bird’, ‘chirping’, ‘outside’, ‘eyes-organ’, ‘ears-organs’, ‘senate reality’ and merely experience in bare, this is the meditative state of intuitively knowing that quality of being luminous in oneness. Oneness as there is nothing to divide when devoid of these symbolic layering. The depth of the crystal clarity of that pure experience – ‘chirping’ is not what language can convey. The point here is not to bring about a scientific study on the topic of qualia but to have a direct feel of the full absorption in the delight of that clear-luminosity of ‘sound’. It is the ‘depth and degree’ of absorptive-clarity yet non-staying that is most important; not the symbolic understanding of meanings.
    
    It may be a good prompt at this juncture to ask "Is remaining ‘in the mode that is free of symbols’ the only way to experience non-duality?"
    
    
    

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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
From the 'notes' section of The Crystal and the Way of Light by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche:

[b]"This is the self-liberation totally free from both action and reaction (rang-grol), which takes place in the very moment that any experience arises: whatever arises liberates itself as it arises, in the same way that a drawing made on water immediately disappears of its own accord. Neither an intentional action of the subject (as in Cherdrol), nor a spontaneous reaction of the subject (as in Shadrol), is required here.

Whatever arises liberates itself of itself, without the need for anyone to do anything to liberate it. The string never begins to be tied up; voidness and appearances manifest coincidently. The practitioner is like the mirror which can freely reflect whatever presents itself, without the reflections in it either sticking to it or leaving any trace in it; the reflected image liberates in the very moment that it appears.

Since there is no longer a mental subject that can be harmed by whatever manifests, it is said that at this stage the passions and whatever may arise are like a thief in an empty house.

When one manifests this ultimate capacity for self-liberation, this is the realization of the Tregchod (khregs-chod). This mode of capacity of liberation, illustrated with the image of a 'thief in an empty house', is indicated in many Dzogchen texts by teh words 'namtok penme nomedu drolwa' (rnam-rtog phan-med gnod-med-du grol-ba)"[/b]

• • It's okie. U can passed it to Isis...Just bought 5 books by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.
• ~ Buddhism: Wisdom Bliss ~ The nature of the separate self, duality
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  • 12 Nov `07, 10:23AM

    Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

    Just saw something similar by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, in Advice On Presence And Awareness
    
    ...For this reason Padma Sambhava said: 'the mind is the creator of Samsara and of Nirvana. Outside the mind there exists neither Samsara nor Nirvana. 'Having thus established that the basis of Samsara and Nirvana is the mind, it follows that all that seems concrete in the world, and all the seeming solidity of beings themselves, is nothing but an illusory vision of one's own mind.
    
    Just as a person who has a 'bile' disease sees a shell as being yellow even if one can see objectively that that is not its true color, so in just the same way, as a result of the particular karmic causes of sentient beings, the various illusory visions manifest. Thus, if one were to meet a being of each of the six states of existence on the bank of the same river, they would not see that river in the same way, since they each would have different karmic causes. The beings of the hot hells would see the river as fire; those of the cold hells would see it as ice; beings of the hungry ghost realm would see the river as blood and pus; aquatic animals would see it as an environment to live in; human beings would see the river as water to drink; while the demi-gods would see it as weapons, and the gods as nectar. This shows that in reality nothing exists as concrete and objective. Therefore, understanding that the root of Samsara is truly the mind, one should set out to pull up the root. Recognizing that the mind itself is the essence of Enlightenment one attains liberation. Thus, being aware that the basis of Samsara and Nirvana is only the mind, one takes the decision to practice....

    Reality here refers to phenomena (experiential reality) and in religious parlance, they are referred to as forms, maya or appearances. When we talk about 'sound', we are not refering to the physical processes of how the air molecules hit our ear drums. It is the sudden, out of nowhere, the magical birth of ‘sound’ that we are exploring. This becomes more obvious when we inquire into sight -- our most powerful sense. The question of how all those inverted images in our retina are able to give rise to the sensation of an 'external' world that is so vividly real, full of colors and motion is puzzling. Maya is as amazing as our buddha nature...
• ~ Buddhism: Wisdom Bliss ~ The nature of the separate self, duality
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  • 11 Nov `07, 4:49PM

    Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

    All gain and loss is also simply that -- conditioned arising. The sense of a 'controller' is let go of, no 'self' is in control. This does not mean we must not exert effort to get good exam results (we must exert our fullest effort), it just means that gain and loss must be seen as conditioned arising.

    The understanding 'of arising as yuan' must be factored to all aspects of our lives. Applying this insight to the six stages of my experiences, you must see them not as indications of stages at all. There are no higher or lower stages, all merely serves as conditions for ‘new insight’ to arise. A practitioner may start from training himself to ‘witness’ the empty nature of phenomena (stage 6) yet still having a clear distinction of observer and observed being dual; but the gradual loosening of ‘solidity’ of all internal or external phenomena having no inherent existence will slowly leads to the non-dual experience.
• ~ Buddhism: Wisdom Bliss ~ The nature of the separate self, duality
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  • 11 Nov `07, 4:38PM

    Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

    A bird is chirping happily outside... just that sound. The whole universe is just that sound. Completely real, but never staying... gone as it arises. Merely a conditioned manifestation that is empty.
    …
    In reality, there only is the universe manifesting as it is in itself, conditioned arising, a mere happening that happens to no-one. Whatever arises at that moment, is as it is. If pain arises, it is not 'your pain' from 'your body'. The universe is pain and it is happening to no one because there is no self apart from manifestation.

    An extra point:
    
    Here the highlight must not only be the empty nature of ‘sound’ alone, that luminosity as ‘sound’ must similarly be emphasized. When we stripped-off the symbolic representation of ‘bird’, ‘chirping’, ‘outside’, ‘eyes-organ’, ‘ears-organs’, ‘senate reality’ and merely experience in bare, this is the meditative state of intuitively knowing that quality of being luminous in oneness. Oneness as there is nothing to divide when devoid of these symbolic layering. The depth of the crystal clarity of that pure experience – ‘chirping’ is not what language can convey. The point here is not to bring about a scientific study on the topic of qualia but to have a direct feel of the full absorption in the delight of that clear-luminosity of ‘sound’. It is the ‘depth and degree’ of absorptive-clarity yet non-staying that is most important; not the symbolic understand of meanings.
    
    It may be a good prompt at this juncture to ask "Is remaining ‘in the mode that is free of symbols’ the only way to experience non-duality?"

Longchen's three new articles

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  • 16 Nov `07, 12:29PM
    
    All of our forummer Longchen's articles (http://www.dreamdatum.com/articles-path.html) are of especially good quality and very well written especially that it's coming from a sincere practitioner willing to share his insights gained from his practice.
    
    He was just discussing about maintaining non-duality while engaging in conversation when I met him for lunch days ago in school, and which he later wrote this (followed by two other articles "Are we supposed to get rid of unwholesome thoughts?" and "The misconception surrounding Transcendental Nonduality"):
    
    http://www.dreamdatum.com/nondual-conversation.html
    
    Non-dual Conversation
    
    Is it possible for one to maintain non-dual while having a conversation with another person? This is something that I am learning to do. From my few experiences, yes it is possible. But it is quite a challenge. And at as of this writing, I am very unstable at this.
    
    There is really no method of how this can be done. It is really a matter of discovering something and entering into the state without volition.
    
    I will state what happens when non-dual conversation is taking place. The following features are present when having a non-dual conversation:
    
    1. No sense of talking to someone outside of oneself. All this is happening within the same space without subject-object division.
    
    2. No sense of my body talking to another body. This has got to do with no sense of ownership of body. At this point, the sense of owning the physical body is absent. In addition to that, there is also no sense of the sound and sight of another body as being separated from all that is happening at the moment. This is different from no 'I' in the sense that it now encompasses 'no mine' or 'no ownership'.
    
    3. Because of the absence of self-others demarcation, conversation occurs without the usual mode of trying to get some kind of response, reaction or effect from the other party. At my current stage, I did notice a slight grasping that is being used to translate sound into meanings. This is unlike the total deconstruction that occurs with the 'powering down' of perception.
    
    OK, that all I can think of and write about this topic. I will revise and improve this article where the need arises.
    
    For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.
    
    ------------------------
    
    http://www.dreamdatum.com/thought-detach.html
    
    Are we suppose to get rid of unwholesome thoughts?
    
    This article is related to a common misconception with regards to spiritual practice. Many spiritual teachings say that one must get rid of unwholesome stuffs in one's life. So does that include getting rid of unwholesome thoughts that one is having.
    
    Are we suppose to get rid of unwholesome thoughts? Before we can answer this question, we must first ask..."Can the self or 'I' get rid of thoughts that are deemed as unwholesome?" The answer to the latter question is a NO.
    
    As already mentioned and explained here, the sense of self or 'I' is not the doer of action. As much as this 'sense of self' desires, it simply has no power over the arising and ceasing of thoughts. Thoughts, are for most part, related to the functioning of memory. Because of that, thoughts and memory cannot be removed by will.
    
    So, if thoughts cannot be stopped from arising using volition, are we powerless with regards to its influences. No.
    
    While thoughts cannot be stopped, the attachment or aversion to them can be diminished with training. Both attachments and aversions are types of grasping.
    
    So to be precise, during spiritual practice, we are not supposed to try to stop unwholesome thoughts from arising. This will prove to be ineffective and all we get will be more frustrations. What we can do, is to let go of the grasping to the thoughts. There is an energetic difference between the two.
    
    About this letting go, it is really a gentle process and cannot be forced. Excessive forcing re-enforces the arising of 'sense of self' and ineffective grasping kicks into action again.
    
    Often, the thoughts that arised are in conditioned response to what is being perceived by the senses. The speed of the arisal of the thought often is very fast. Because there is a perception, which is followed rapidly by the conditioned thought, the conditioned reaction(grasping) to the thought often is almost immediate. The rapid change that occur within this short span of duration is what makes 'recognising' the grasping from the perception and thoughts difficult.
    
    OK, that all I can think of and write about this topic. I will revise and improve this article where the need arises.
    
    For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.
    
    These articles are parts of a series of spiritual realisation articles.
    
    ----------------------------
    http://www.dreamdatum.com/nondual-misinfo.html
    
    (just updated)
    
    The misconceptions surrounding Transcendental Non duality
    
    This article is related to a common misconception with regards to the Transcendental experience of Nonduality. Within the spiritual circle, the term Non-duality is a very misunderstood or misinterpreted term. It must be understood that the term has more than one meaning and its perceived meaning largely depends on a person's stage of spiritual awareness.
    
    More often than not, a lower stage understanding of the term is misconstrued as the Transcendental experience of Nonduality or non-dualism. This confusion is largely compounded by so-called new age spiritual materials.
    
    The most common understanding of Non duality is related to the issue of Polarity such as light and dark. In this semantic, non-duality is explained as the non-biasness towards any side of a pole. This is about the concept of there being no absolute good or evil. In another word, it is about being non-judgemental. Many spiritual materials believed that this concept of non-duality is equivalent to enlightenment. This is not entirely correct.
    
    Non-duality as a concept for no polarity is not wrong. However, it should not be mistaken for non-duality as the state of enlightenment. The term non-duality that is being used to describe Enlightenment is actually describing a state whereby there is no subject-object division. This is an experience that is difference from the concept of no absolute polarity.
    
    No subject-object division is the true nature of existence. The method of realising this insight lies in the dissolving of the 'sense of self'. This often involves the continual and correct letting go of mental grasping.
    
    OK, that all I can think of and write about this topic. I will revise and improve this article where the need arises.
    
    For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.
    Edited by An Eternal Now 24 Nov `07, 1:39PM
• longchen

  
  

  800 posts since Jan '04

  
  • 16 Nov `07, 5:50PM
    
    The articles are still in draft stage. So, i will be making further changes.
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  An Eternal Now

  
  

  17,257 posts since Sep '04

  
  • 16 Nov `07, 7:16PM
    

    Originally posted by longchen:

    show

    I see...
• oOprinceOo

  
  

  2,009 posts since Nov '06

  
  • 16 Nov `07, 7:18PM
    
    wow nice.
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  Thusness

  
  

  581 posts since Dec '04

  
  • 16 Nov `07, 9:02PM
    

    Originally posted by longchen:

    show

    Good stuff. Rememer to update here.
  • 16 Nov `07, 9:15PM
    

    Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
    All of our forummer Longchen's articles (http://www.dreamdatum.com/articles-path.html) are of especially good quality and very well written especially that it's coming from a sincere practitioner willing to share his insights gained from his practice.
    ...
    Non-dual Conversation
    
    Is it possible for one to maintain non-dual while having a conversation with another person? This is something that I am learning to do. From my few experiences, yes it is possible. But it is quite a challenge. And at as of this writing, I am very unstable at this.

    Yes all 3 articles are well written. You should not overlook the the title “non dual conversation” and also realize the importance of those marked in bold.
    
    There is a difference between non-duality as experienced during sitting meditation and non-duality as a form of insight when sufficiently stabilized. As a form of insight (stabilized) the illusionary division of a subject-object dichotomy is thoroughly seen through and meditative state is carried beyond ‘sitting meditation’. The experience of pure presence is integrated naturally into walking, tasting, hearing and seeing in all arising phenomena without much effort (still not completely effortless).
    
    In due time, the experience and understanding can get so clear that the entire ‘conceptual layering’ disappears. Even if concepts were to arise, they cease to serve as conditioning threads to the experience of pure presence.
    
    However during ‘conversation’ and/or in engagement of certain activities where dualistic conditions are strong, even when non-dual experience is stabilized till the above case, a non-dualist will still find it "quite a challenge".
  • 17 Nov `07, 1:54AM
    
    Hi Longchen,
    
    Thanks for the article and just to share with u some of my experiences:
    
    

    
    1. No sense of talking to someone outside of oneself. All this is happening within the same space without subject-object division.

    Always so. Never was any experience not of non-dual. If meant only as an expression that non-dual state is always present, it is alright but if there is an intention to re-confirm subconsciously a non-dual state, then in my opinion, that 're-confirming' must be let go ultimately. The letting go will deepen the luminosity instead. That is my experience.
    
    

    
    2. No sense of my body talking to another body. This has got to do with no sense of ownership of body. At this point, the sense of owning the physical body is absent. In addition to that, there is also no sense of the sound and sight of another body as being separated from all that is happening at the moment. This is different from no 'I' in the sense that it now encompasses 'no mine' or 'no ownership'.
    
    3. Because of the absence of self-others demarcation, conversation occurs without the usual mode of trying to get some kind of response, reaction or effect from the other party. At my current stage, I did notice a slight grasping that is being used to translate sound into meanings. This is unlike the total deconstruction that occurs with the 'powering down' of perception.

    I think this is a very important realization and the whole essence of having non-dual experience during conversation or engaging in activities and situations where conditions to create dualistic views are strong lies here -- in overcoming the bond of ‘mine’.
    
    I will relate it to the seeds of the 6th and 7th consciousness in Buddhism. In Buddhism, on top of the usual 5 senses, a 6th sense is added, that is, the conceptual mind. It is the habitual tendency of layering and naming that confuses a practitioner creating the subject-object split in terms of perception. Here the ‘condition’ for the arising of the split is mainly due to this ‘seed’ that resides in the 6th consciousness, that is, the conceptual overlay creating a ‘perceptual I’ (I referred to as the ‘bond’ of ‘I’) and overcoming this ‘bond’ of ‘I’ does not mean the overcoming of the bond of ‘mine’. The bond of ‘mine’ is a more subtle bond. A practitioner may continue to experience a strong ontological sense of ‘ITness’ and leave traces of the sense of self in holding to “Everything is Self’. At this stage, the sense of ‘ego’ can still remain strong.
    
    

    
    At this point, the sense of owning the physical body is absent
    ....
    At my current stage, I did notice a slight grasping that is being used to translate sound into meanings.

    Taking the above quote as an example, the symbolic meaning of a ‘body’ is created by the 6th consciousness (the bond of ‘I’) which is deconstructed during the first phase of non-dual insight but ‘owning the body’ belongs to the 7th consciousness (what I called the bond of ‘mine’) and is still strong. It often requires daily engagement in activities to allow the conditions to mirror the latent deep ‘ownership’. Here the ‘dual’ is between ‘ego’ and action/hostile environment. The separation is overcome by dissolving the ‘bond of mine’ where the 'agent' is being transcended into non-dual action. As for the grasping of 'sound into meanings', it relates more to the conceptual mind (6th consciousness).
    
    

    
    There is really no method of how this can be done. It is really a matter of discovering something and entering into the state without volition.

    The best solution to overcome this bond of 'mine' is insight into our emptiness nature. It is the “discovery of the something” that enables us to “enter into the state without volition” in the most natural and self liberated way.
    
    As an intermediate practice, one can sense any form of contraction that is manifested in the 5 aggregates. Sense all contractions that prevent totality and dropped them instantly but gently. There is no need to reason or find out why. Contractions are deeply embedded at the cell level due to a tightly held pre-conscious 'self'-preservation' seed. Release them. Any contraction that resulted in separation is a form of ‘self-preservation '.
    
    When stepping out, feel the full sensation of stepping out. The totality of sensation without contraction.…
    
    When breathing, feel the totality of the entire breathing without contraction…
    
    When engaging in thoughts or speeches that give rise to bodily contraction, Let go completely but gently as if the contraction is dying in its own accord without asking why. Do not feel bad when contraction arises, forget about the past and future, whatever mistakes done and whatever things that are left undone, just let go of these arising thoughts that resulted in contraction without justification and reason. Pure sensation of presence takes over all logical reasoning.
    
    Practice till there is a natural momentum that in any circumstances or situations, whenever and whereever the sense of contraction arises, it is dropped immediately and gently. When there is no contraction, there is no worry of separation. The momentum with the practice of dropping whenever contraction arises will dissolve the ‘bond of mine’. When this bond is sufficiently dissolved, even “everything is Self’ is deconstructed. Here 'Self' is transended into mere action or activity and one realises that the entire idea of ‘I’ and ‘mine’ is learnt, there is truly nothing to hold. Insight of emptiness may arise; there is no I, there is no mine, all is the mere play of dharma, arises when condition is, self-liberates in their own accord.
    
    This is also my practice before insight into the emptiness nature of phenomena. My 2 cents.
    
    
    Edited by Thusness 17 Nov `07, 8:48AM
• longchen

  
  

  800 posts since Jan '04

  
  • 17 Nov `07, 8:17AM
    
    Hi Thusness,
    
    Thanks so much for the very detailed explanation. Appreciate it.
    
    regards
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  Thusness

  
  

  581 posts since Dec '04

  
  • 17 Nov `07, 8:37AM
    

    Originally posted by longchen:

    show

    I like the article on "Are we suppose to get rid of unwholesome thoughts? " too. Insightful.
  • 17 Nov `07, 3:16PM
    

    
    Are we suppose to get rid of unwholesome thoughts?
    
    This article is related to a common misconception with regards to spiritual practice. Many spiritual teachings say that one must get rid of unwholesome stuffs in one's life. So does that include getting rid of unwholesome thoughts that one is having.
    
    Are we suppose to get rid of unwholesome thoughts? Before we can answer this question, we must first ask..."Can the self or 'I' get rid of thoughts that are deemed as unwholesome?"; The answer to the latter question is a NO.
    
    As already mentioned and explained here, the sense of self or 'I' is not the doer of action. As much as this 'sense of self' desires, it simply has no power over the arising and ceasing of thoughts. Thoughts, are for most part, related to the functioning of memory. Because of that, thoughts and memory cannot be removed by will.

    Hi Longchen,
    
    This is a wonderful article and it is also a bold assertion. I fully agree with what you said. The idea that there is a controller is an illusion. It is the result of deep conditioning that blinds us from seeing what exactly is ‘happening’ experientially.
    
    This truth must be experimented and challenged for insight to arise. Try with all our might; control and will the next moment of thought to arise as desired. Try to penetrate with all our power and will to know what the next moment of thought will be. Experiment until this truth is clearly understood as an experiential fact.
    
    

    
    So, if thoughts cannot be stopped from arising using volition, are we powerless with regards to its influences. No.

    I will re-phrase it to “if thoughts cannot be stopped from arising using volition, then what is its nature? How does it arise? Why does it arise?”
    
    There is no better way to phrase it then to borrow from the teachings of Buddha :-
    
    When there is this, that is.
    With the arising of this, that arises.
    When this is not, neither is that.
    With the cessation of this, that ceases.
    
    -- the principle of conditionality
    
    Understanding emptiness nature has profound implication to our practice. It reveals to us that our existing mode of practice as what you experienced and correctly put it, is not the right approach. We stop willing and controlling. Instead all moments are allowed to express themselves in their natural state, arising when condition is and subsides when condition ceases. Life is a whole oneness and pure presence is found in all moments and all states. There is no purer state. Practice is not about controlling or willing anything. It is allowing the pure presence to reveal itself in its manifolds. Emptiness and non-dual experience provide the insight that practice is neither aftering the mirror nor escaping from the maya reflection; it is to clearly 'see' the 'nature' of reflection. To see that there is really no mirror other than the ongoing reflection due to our emptiness nature. Neither is there a mirror to cling to as the background container nor a maya to escape from. Beyond these two extreme approaches lies the middle path -- the prajna wisdom of seeing that the maya is our Buddha nature.
    
    We then extend this understanding to events, situations, relationships and practices to prove the profundity of this wisdom. Using this insight to dissolve the 'I', 'mine', 'karmic propensities' and all knots of solidity and effort. When this is correctly understood with the insight of non-dual, it reveals the truth of self-liberation.
    
    Happy Journey!
    
    
    Edited by Thusness 17 Nov `07, 5:33PM
• longchen

  
  

  800 posts since Jan '04

  
  • 17 Nov `07, 9:11PM
    
    Hi Thusness,
    
    Thanks again.
    
    regards
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  An Eternal Now

  
  

  17,257 posts since Sep '04

  
  • 18 Nov `07, 7:40PM
    

    Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
    http://www.dreamdatum.com/nondual-misinfo.html
    
    [b]The misconceptions surrounding Transcendental Non duality
    
    This article is related to a common misconception with regards to the Transcendental experience of Nonduality. Within the spiritual circle, the term Non-duality is a very misunderstood or misinterpreted term. It must be understood that the term has more than one meaning and its perceived meaning largely depends on a person's stage of spiritual awareness.
    
    More often than not, a lower stage understanding of the term is misconstrued as the Transcendental experience of Nonduality or non-dualism. This confusion is largely compounded by so-called new age spiritual materials.
    
    The most common understanding of Non duality is related to the issue of Polarity such as light and dark. In this semantic, non-duality is explained as the non-biasness towards any side of a pole. This is about the concept of there being no absolute good or evil. In another word, it is about being non-judgemental. Many spiritual materials believed that this concept of non-duality is equivalent to enlightenment. This is not entirely correct.
    
    Non-duality as a concept for no polarity is not wrong. However, it should not be mistaken for non-duality as the state of enlightenment. The term non-duality that is being used to describe Enlightenment is actually describing a state whereby there is no subject-object division. This is an experience that is difference from the concept of no absolute polarity.
    
    No subject-object division is the true nature of existence. The method of realising this insight lies in the dissolving of the 'sense of self'. This often involves the continual and correct letting go of mental grasping.
    
    OK, that all I can think of and write about this topic. I will revise and improve this article where the need arises.
    
    For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.[/b]

    Agreed. We can say that the Nonduality of Subject and Object is related to other forms of nonduality, yet other forms of nonduality may not necessary bring out the essence of the Nonduality of Subject and Object, which is the fundamental kind of insights known as "enlightenment".
    
    David Loy wrote in 'Nonduality' (highly recommended book on nondual concept), first chapter, which is called 'How many nondualities are there?'
    
    In it, it distinguished 5 kinds of nonduality.
    
    No concept is more important in Asian philosophical and religious thought than nonduality (Sanskrit advaya and advaita, Tibetan gNismed, Chinese pu-erh, Japanese fu-ni), and none is more ambiguous. The term has been used in many different although related ways, and to my knowledge the distinction between these meanings have never been fully clarified. These meanings are distinct, although they often overlap in particular instances....
    
    ...The following types of nonduality are discussed here: the negation of dualistic thinking, the nonplurality of the world, and the nondifference of subject and object. In subsequent chapters, our attention focuses primarily on the last of these three, although there will also be occasion to consider two other nondualities which are also closely related: first, what has been called the identity of phenomena and Absolute, or the Mahayana equation of samsara and nirvana, which can also be expressed as "the nonduality of duality and nonduality"; second, the possibility of a mystical unity between God and man. No doubt other nondualities can be distinguished, but most of them can be subsumed under one or more of the above categories....
    
    A very short summary:
    
    Dualistic thinking here, means thinking in terms of good and bad, right and wrong, purity and impurity, being and non-being, black and white and so on.
    
    "Without relation to "good there is no "bad," in dependence on which we form the idea of "Good." Therefore "good" is unintelligible. There is no "good" unrelated to "bad"; yet we form our idea of "bad" in dependence on it. There is therefore no "bad." (Nagarjuna)
    
    The second nonduality, the nonplurality of the world, is that
    
    

    ...due to the superimpositions of dualistic thinking that we experience the world itself dualistically in our second sense: as a collection of discrete objects (one of them being me) causally interacting in space and time. The negation of dualistic thinking leads to the negation of this way of experiencing the world. This brings us to the second sense of nonduality: that the world itself is nonplural, because all things "in" the world are not really distinct from each other but together constitute some integral whole. The relation between these two senses of nonduality is shown by Huang Po at the very beginning of his Chun Chou record:
    
    All Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. This mind, which is without beginning, is unborn and indestructible. It is not green nor yellow, and has neither form nor appearance. It does not belong to the categories of things which exist or do not exist, nor can it be thought about in terms of new or old. It is neither long nor short, big nor small, for it transcends all limits, measures, names, traces, and comparisons. It is that which you see before you -- begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error.
    
    This asserts more than that everything is composed of some indefinable substance. The unity of everything "in" the world means that each thing is a manifestation of a "spiritual" whole because the One Mind incorporates all consciousness and all minds. This whole -- indivisible, birthless, and deathless -- has been designated by a variety of terms, as all as the One Mind, there are the Tao, Brahman, the Dharmakaya, and so on.

    The third nonduality, is the nonduality of subject and object.
    
    We have seen the connection between the first two dualities: it is because of our dualistic ways of thinking that we perceive the world pluralistically. The relationship between the corresponding nondualities is parallel: the world as a collection of discrete things (including me) in space and time is not something objectively given, which we merely observe passively; if our ways of thinking change, that world also changes for us. But there is still something lacking in this formulation. By itself it is incomplete, for it leaves unclarified the relation between the subject and the nondual world that the subject experiences. It was stated earlier that the nondual whole is "spiritual" because the One Mind includes my mind, but How consciousness could be incorporated has not been explained. The world is not really experienced as a whole if the subject that perceives it is still separate from it and its observation Of it. In this way the second sense of nonduality, conceived objectively, is unstable and naturally tends to evolve into a third sense. This third sense, like the other two, must be understood as a negation. The dualism denied is our usual distinction between subject and object, an experiencing self that is distinct from what is experienced, be it sense-object, physical action, or mental event. The corresponding nonduality is experience in which there is no such distinction between subject and object. However extraordinary and counterintuitive such nonduality may be, it is an essential element of many Asian systems (and some Western ones, of course). Since the primary purpose of this world is to analyze this third sense of nonduality, it is necessary to establish in detail the prevalence and significance of this concept....
    
    ------
    
    I came to realize clearly that mind is no other than mountains, rivers, and the great wide earth, the sun and the moon and the stars. ~ Dogen
    Edited by An Eternal Now 24 Nov `07, 1:39PM
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  Thusness

  
  

  581 posts since Dec '04

  
  • 19 Nov `07, 10:09PM
    

    Originally posted by longchen:

    show

    Hi Longchen,
    
    Whatever the practice whether it is by way of directly sensing contraction or by insight into our emptiness nature or by boddhisattva practice of parimatas, one must ultimately give up the sense of self entirely. The sensation of the overcoming the bond of 'mine' is like mere crytal clear happening as if 'you' never existed. We must be completely fearless during meditation in giving up 'ownership' of our body, mind even that 'concious' portion. Experience that 'fearlessness' and 'openness' and be willing to let go of whatever holdings during meditation. Then nothing else matter and nothing can imobilize the flow. In silence, there is mere manifestation and in acting, there is mere action/activity. It is a very important experience but requires stability of non-dual insight to a certain degree otherwise there is no true giving up; even if there is, the giving up will end being a trance instead of pure presence.
    
    
    Edited by Thusness 19 Nov `07, 10:49PM
• longchen

  
  

  800 posts since Jan '04

  
  • 20 Nov `07, 5:37PM
    

    Originally posted by Thusness:
    
    
    Hi Longchen,
    
    Whatever the practice whether it is by way of directly sensing contraction or by insight into our emptiness nature or by boddhisattva practice of parimatas, one must ultimately give up the sense of self entirely. The sensation of the overcoming the bond of 'mine' is like [b]mere crytal clear happening as if 'you' never existed. We must be completely fearless during meditation in giving up 'ownership' of our body, mind even that 'concious' portion. Experience that 'fearlessness' and 'openness' and be willing to let go of whatever holdings during meditation. Then nothing else matter and nothing can imobilize the flow. In silence, there is mere manifestation and in acting, there is mere action/activity. It is a very important experience but requires stability of non-dual insight to a certain degree otherwise there is no true giving up; even if there is, the giving up will end being a trance instead of pure presence.
    
    [/b]

    Hi Thusness,
    
    Thanks for this.