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Aditya Prasad
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If the "I AM" sense is ultimately just a subtle object in the mental domain (6th consciousness), this means that focusing on it is, effectively, just like thinking. Over time, one may build up this habit so strongly that one's attention is naturally captured by it, and effortlessly returns to it whenever "distracted." This would certainly explain why it can lead to insomnia: it is really no different from the non-practitioner who cannot fall asleep due to being captivated by mind-content. Even worse: attempts to meditate one's way to sleep will only reinforce the problem (unlike for the non-practitioner). The remedy seems to be undoing this habit by focusing on the (other) five sense fields.
Does this sound familiar to others?
51 comments
Diederik van der Boor
I'm confused, I thought the I AM phase means you've awoken to recognise yourself as being awareness. That's already beyond mind to me, while others may call everything a thought. So perhaps it's mixing up definitions of different teachings, where those words are used for different things?
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Aditya Prasad
Author
Diederik van der Boor Yes, in I AM you recognize yourself to be "awareness." Later, you realize that everything is awareness; there is no awareness apart from manifestation. The "pure awareness" you thought was separate was actually just an imputation; a subtle mind-object.
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Sudden Awakenings
Yes. You are describing exactly what I experienced in the I AM phase. And, seeing through the illusion that awareness is permanent instantly revealed how much effort and clinging was going into maintaining that perception. But, now I have insomnia for other reasons 🙃
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Aditya Prasad
Author
Sudden Awakenings Oof, sorry to hear that you still have insomnia. Also sorry to hear that it's still a possibility even after getting past I AM lol.
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Owen Richards
How can it be a subtle object? An object cognised by who/what?
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Aditya Prasad
Author
Owen Richards Same as with all other apparent objects: ultimately there's no subject cognizing any of them.
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Owen Richards
Aditya Prasad so who's cognising insomnia?
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Aditya Prasad
Author
Owen Richards are you asking in the ultimate sense, or the relative sense? In the I AM, it feels like pure awareness cognizing insomnia. Ultimately, there is no "who." Maybe I'm missing what you're intending to communicate?
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Katherine Willow
The question arises, if this is just a subtle thought, why focus on it? This seems to me like reinforcing rather than dropping, and our problem is indeed that we're holding on to things, isn't that right?
So, the better way in my book is, from the beginning, practice in such a way to drop these things. Then one can enter into anatta from the very start, no need to waste precious time reifying this I AM that must be later dropped.
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Aditya Prasad
Author
Katherine Willow Sounds sensible. Alas, I only discovered this possibility after decades of reifying the I AM!
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Nafis Rahman
Admin
Katherine Willow
I AM is an important and beneficial insight, just needs to be understood in the proper context once someone is aiming for anatta. Relevant chapter from the ATR guide:
Why Realize the I AM (Can I skip straight away to more “advanced stages” like anatta?)
Some people wonder if it is necessary to go through the I AM realization before they realize further stages of insight like Anatta (Stage 5). While possible, it is easy to miss out certain aspects like the luminous Presence. One can have non-dual experiences but it is dry and barren without the luminous taste of Presence-Awareness. Furthermore, as discussed towards the end of this document, the stages are not to be seen as purely linear progression nor as a measurement of importance -- even the first phase of I AM Realization is important as it brings out the luminous essence. Actually, the taste of Stage 1 (I AM) and Stage 4 and 5 is similar, only the insight and view is different. At Stage 4, John Tan wrote that it is the same luminous taste as the direct taste of Mind (called “I AM”) but now extended to all six senses.
“[11:25 AM, 6/6/2020] John Tan: People that do not go through the phases of insights between I AM will not know the difference but it is important to go through I AM to realize the intensity.”
In 2009, John Tan wrote:
"Hi Teck Cheong,
What you described is fine and it can be considered vipassana meditation too but you must be clear what is the main objective of practicing that way. Ironically, the real purpose only becomes obvious after the arising insight of anatta. What I gathered so far from your descriptions are not so much about anatta or empty nature of phenomena but are rather drawn towards Awareness practice. So it will be good to start from understanding what Awareness truly is. All the method of practices that you mentioned will lead to a quality of experience that is non-conceptual. You can have non-conceptual experience of sound, taste...etc...but more importantly in my opinion, you should start from having a direct, non-conceptual experience of Awareness (first glimpse of our luminous essence). Once you have a ‘taste’ of what Awareness is, you can then think of ‘expanding’ this bare awareness and gradually understand what does ‘heightening and expanding’ mean from the perspective of Awareness.
Next, although you hear and see ‘non-dual, anatta and dependent origination’ all over the place in An Eternal Now’s forum (the recent Toni Packer’s books you bought are about non-dual and anatta), there is nothing wrong being ‘dualistic’ for a start. Even after direct non-conceptual experience of Awareness, our view will still continue to be dualistic; so do not have the idea that being dualistic is bad although it prevents thorough experience of liberation.
The comment given by Dharma Dan is very insightful but of late, I realized that it is important to have a first glimpse of our luminous essence directly before proceeding into such understanding. Sometimes understanding something too early will deny oneself from actual realization as it becomes conceptual. Once the conceptual understanding is formed, even qualified masters will find it difficult to lead the practitioner to the actual ‘realization’ as a practitioner mistakes conceptual understanding for realization.
Rgds,
John"
“The anatta I realized is quite unique. It is not just a realization of no-self. But it must first have an intuitive insight of Presence. Otherwise will have to reverse the phases of insights.” - John Tan, 2018
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I noticed that many Buddhists trained under the doctrine of anatta and emptiness seem to be put off by the description of “I AM realization” as it seems to contradict anatta. This will prevent their progress as they will fail to appreciate and realize the depth of luminous presence, and their understanding of anatta and emptiness remains intellectual. It should be understood that the I AM realization does not contradict Anatta realization but complements it. It is the “original face before your parents were born” of Zen, and the unfabricated clarity in Dzogchen that serves as initial rigpa, it is also the initial certainty of Mind discovered in the first of the four yogas of Mahamudra (see: Clarifying the Natural State by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal). Calling it “I AM” is just another name for the same thing, and you should also know that AtR’s definition of I AM is different from Buddhism’s term “conceit of I Am” or Nisargadatta’s I Am. The I AM of AtR is a direct taste and realization of the Mind of Clear Light.
The view gets refined and the taste gets brought to effortless maturity and non-contrivance in all manifestation as one’s insights deepen.
“"I AM" is a luminous thought in samadhi as I-I. Anatta is a realization of that in extending the insight to the 6 entries and exits.” – John Tan, 2018
Soh:
The view of anatta, dependent origination and emptiness is very different from Advaita, so while you intellectually understand this point, continue to do self enquiry which works on a different set of assumptions. Don't get disturbed by whether Presence is self or not self while doing self enquiry, or on anatta, etc. Just direct realize the Awareness/Presence/I AM first. If you get disturbed by thinking or concepts, you will never come to the Certainty of Being-Existence. As a matter of fact, that doubtless taste of luminous Presence does not contradict anatta, but complements it when properly understood. Merely understanding anatta without the direct taste of Presence is dry and nihilistic or merely intellectual.
However after you realize Presence (I AM), then non dual, then anatta and dependent origination and emptiness, you will start to see and appreciate that Buddha's view and insight is profound.
John Tan told me in 2008, “Although the 'teaching of anatta' helps to prevent you from landing into wrong views, the downside is it also denies you from experiencing that deep and ultimate conviction, that certainty beyond doubt of your very own existence -- "I AM'. This is a very important factor for practitioners.
Although I had an intellectual understanding of anatta, emptiness and dependent origination since 2006, I (Soh) did not let it disturb my self-enquiry and my self enquiry between 2008 to February 2010 culminated in Self-Realization.
“Regarding whether it is important to go through I AM realization or can we skip to anatta -- John Tan and I and Sim Pern Chong have had differing and evolving opinions about this over the years (I remember Sim Pern Chong saying he thinks people can skip it altogether, John also wondered if it is possible or advisable as certain AF people seem to have skipped it but experience luminosity), however after witnessing the progress of people it seems to us that those who went into anatta without the I AM realization tend to miss out the luminosity and intensity of luminosity. And then they will have to go through another phase. For those with I AM realization, the second stanza of anatta comes very easily, in fact the first aspect to become more apparent. Nowadays John and my opinion is that it is best to go through the I AM phase, then nondual and anatta..
There was also the worry that by leading people into the I AM, they can get stuck there. (As John Tan and Sim Pern Chong was stuck there for decades)
But I have shown that it is possible to progress rather quickly (in eight months) from I AM to anatta. So the being stuck is due to lack of right pointers and directions, not inherently an issue with I AM.” - Soh, 2020
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Nafis Rahman
Admin
Continued:
Even after anatta, John Tan has at times told me to revisit the aspect of I AM. It is possible, even important, to integrate that quality and taste. He also calls it ‘reversing the cycle of insight’. One may need to cycle through the phases of insights, sort of to refresh one’s practice and deepen it, for a few rounds.
“After the maturity of anatta insight and twofold emptiness, eventually there is effortless, ongoing and intense experience of "everything as Self", "As in that experience of I AM powerfully present at this moment", "As if like Awareness clear and open like space, without meditation yet powerfully present and non-dual. Where the 4 Aspects of I AM are fully experienced in this moment. This experience will become more and more powerful later yet effortless and uncontrived. How so? If it is not correct insights and practice, how is it possible for such complete and total experience of effortless and uncontrived Presence be possible?". "Indeed and this is being authenticated by the immediate moment of experience. How could there be doubt about it. The last trace of Presence must be released with seeing through the emptiness nature of whatever arises. After maturing and integrating your insights into practice, there must be no effort and action.... The entire whole is doing the work and arises as this vivid moment of shimmering appearance, this has always been what we always called Presence." "Yes and you should in all moment of 6 entries and exits experience all coming together for this moment to arise....this will dissolve all senses of holdings and will lead you effortless and maha experience of suchness effortlessly", "interpenetration, open, boundless, effortless and uncontrived."” - John Tan, 2012
“There is a very intense and much deeper state I assure you...but there is clear understanding that the manifestation is it....however awareness is like an unbounded and limitless expanse field. The luminosity is intensely clear, the experience is like Non-Dual Awareness broke loose and exist as an unbounded FIELD. There is a difference in seeing sound and a hearer and realizing sound as awareness itself. You cannot focus and there cannot be any sense of effort, there cannot be any sense of boundaries, just itself. You must be very very stable and mature in the anatta state, and you cannot be in an enclosed room... it is the effortlessness and crystal clear transparency and intensity of luminosity... but duality must no more trouble the practitioner, phenomena is clearly understood as the radiance... so nothing is obscuring then in total effortless and emanation arises and the expanse just continues", "one mind is subsuming, therefore there is a sense of dual. In this case there isn't. It is like a drop of water landed on the surface of a clear ocean. The nature of water and ocean are one and the same...nothing containing anything, when sounds and music arise... they are like water and waves in ocean... everything is it" - John Tan, 2013
From personal experience I can say that insufficient luminosity/presence can hinder someone from realizing higher phases of total exertion/mutual interpenetration (ATR stage 6/7).
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Nafis Rahman Yes and Sim Pern Chong also shared recently,
“Just my opinion...
For my case, the first time i experienced a definitive I AM presence, there was zero thought. just a borderless, all pervading presence. In fact, there was no thinking or looking out for whether this is I AM or not. There was no conceptual activity. It was interpreted as 'I AM' only after that experience.
To me, I AM experience is actually a glimpse of the way reality is.. but it is quickly re-interpreted. The attribute of 'borderlessness' is experienced. but other 'attributes such as 'no subject-object', 'transparent luminosity, emptiness are not understood yet.
My take, is that when 'I AM' is experienced, you will be doubtless that it is the experience.”
- Sim Pern Chong, 2022
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Nafis Rahman
Admin
Yes, the insomnia is triggered by fixating on luminous pure consciousness, but it tends to dissolve once someone experiences luminosity in terms of external sensory experience instead. Energy imbalances/insomnia can occur post-anatta as well, in which case one can engage in grounding exercises, vase breathing, yoga, walking in nature etc to circulate the energy.
I think you already read this excerpt before, but just posting it once more:
~ Potential Sleep Disruptions
(Also see chapter: Tips on Energy Imbalances)
This can occur after I AM, or even one mind. This was not a major issue for Soh (it surfaced only to a minor degree), but some people like John Tan and others faced it. One should relax and let go rather than focus on sustaining presence or a state of witnessing into sleep. Natural non-dual or clear light sleep does manifest in sleep naturally after anatta is stabilized, but it is different from the contrived state of effortful sustaining of dualistic witnessing presence which can cause sleep disruptions and insomnia, and one should definitely not mistaken the grasping at a sense of wakefulness (which is actually a form of insomnia and sleep disruption) as a form of achievement.
If one gets stuck with insomnia after I AM/Eternal Witness, it can only be truly solved after realizing John Tan Stage 5. And with regards to the ‘Witness’, John Tan wrote before in 2008, “There is no problem being the witness, the problem is only wrong understanding of what witness is. That is [under the influence of ignorance, one is] seeing duality in Witnessing, or seeing 'Self' and other, subject-object division. That is the problem. You can call it Witnessing or Awareness, there must be no sense of self.”
I have seen so many famous masters and practitioners who have completely mistaken that remaining conscious into deep sleep is a form of achievement. Many masters in various traditions, such as Advaita, Tibetan, Zen, Thai Forest and so on may see being conscious in sleep as an ultimate achievement, the prized ‘Turiya’ (fourth state) transcending and underlying the transient states of waking, dreaming and sleep. In actuality, not being able to fall asleep completely and being always conscious even when sleeping (what Ramana calls sleepless sleep, wakeful sleep) is an energy imbalance, and it is harmful to one’s health. As John Tan warned, “You realize everyone that claims this ended up having serious health issues.’”, “just don't mistaken all these energy imbalances as achievement. Look at all these issues directly and know how to deal with it.”
In 2007, John Tan translated a paragraph from English to Chinese. It was a passage he wrote about I AMness as the changeless ground of being, ending it with an additional comment, “Due to the strong karmic propensities to grasp at a substance of awareness, the practitioner may have difficulties falling asleep, and in serious cases may obtain insomnia, being unable to fall asleep for many years.” He wrote that and told me to send it along with the Thusness (John Tan) Stages of Enlightenment to a dharma teacher as that dharma teacher was suffering from insomnia due to energy imbalance after I AMness. To truly solve this issue, one must be able to relinquish one’s grasping at Awareness (reified as a Self) and give rise to John Tan Stage 5 insight of anatta.
“Once a practitioner deeply experiences the illusoriness of “self/self-image”, the illusory “self-image” dissolves like a river merges into the great ocean, dissolving without a trace. This moment is also the arising of the Great Self. This Great Self is pure, mystically alive, clear and bright, just like an empty space-mirror reflecting the ten thousand things. The coming and going, birth and death, rise and fall, the ten thousand events and ten thousand phenomena simply arise and cease according to conditions as illusory manifestations appearing from within the ground-substratum of the Great Self. The ground-substratum never gets affected, is still and without movement, without coming and without going. This Great Self is the Atman-Brahman, God-Self.
Commentary: Practitioners should not mistaken this as the True Buddha Mind! Due to the karmic force of grasping at a substance of awareness, a practitioner may have difficulty entering sleep, and in serious cases may experience insomnia, the inability to fall asleep for many years.” – John Tan, 2007
“As long as she knows where she is and aim for stage 5.5, she will be able to cure her sleeping problem. :)” - John Tan, 2007
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Nafis Rahman
Admin
In terms of pointers, you can find them in the ATR practice guide, but a few that are relevant for this situation:
"When consciousness experiences the pure sense of “I AM”, overwhelmed by the transcendental thoughtless moment of Beingness, consciousness clings to that experience as its purest identity. By doing so, it subtly creates a ‘watcher’ and fails to see that the ‘Pure Sense of Existence’ is nothing but an aspect of pure consciousness relating to the thought realm. This in turn serves as the karmic condition that prevents the experience of pure consciousness that arises from other sense-objects. Extending it to the other senses, there is hearing without a hearer and seeing without a seer -- the experience of Pure Sound-Consciousness is radically different from Pure Sight-Consciousness. Sincerely, if we are able to give up ‘I’ and replace it with “Emptiness Nature”, Consciousness is experienced as non-local. There isn't a state that is purer than the other. All is just One Taste, the manifold of Presence.
The ‘who’, ‘where’ and ‘when’, the ‘I’, ‘here’ and ‘now’ must ultimately give way to the experience of total transparency. Do not fall back to a source, just the manifestation is sufficient. This will become so clear that total transparency is experienced. When total transparency is stabilized, transcendental body is experienced and dharmakaya is seen everywhere. This is the samadhi bliss of Bodhisattva. This is the fruition of practice." – John Tan, 2006, 3) Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am" (recommended article for practitioners who have realized I AM) http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../mistaken-reality-of...
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"The key towards pure knowingness is to bring the taste of presence into the 6 entries and exits. So that what is seen, heard, touched, tasted are pervaded by a deep sense of crystal, radiance and transparency. This requires seeing through the center." – Thusness/John Tan
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“It will be advisable to take a step back to re-visit and re-experience each of the 6 sense doors. To cultivate a little on the aspect of being 'bare' for all the senses. Experience as much vividness as possible and have clarity on the luminous aspect of awareness first. Touch, taste, smell and sound… are all equally vivid as compared to seeing. Experience the texture and fabric of awareness. The rest of the conditions that give rise to no-self will come later. 🙂 There is no ‘willful’ entrance into non-duality, create enough conditions, that’s all. :)” - John Tan, 2007
This aspect will come by practicing Vipassana, see John's Vipassana - https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../thusnesss... and Vipassana - https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../vipassana.html
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An advise I often give which in my experience is a highly effective method for realizing no-self: "spend quality hours (or however much time you can afford) everyday practicing being naked in awareness (whether in sitting meditation or in movement), which is to say hear the sounds as clear as can be in its pristine clarity and vividness… observe/experience the minutest details of sensations in its crystal clarity and aliveness, the sights, smells, taste, touch. Then contemplate and notice the fact that “there is no experiencer behind experience, just the experience” or “in seeing just the shapes, colours, forms, no seer”... this can eventually lead to non dual experience and insight.” – John Tan
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“Good insight. Stability of experience has a predictable relationship with the unfolding and deepening of insights. For example how seamless and effortless can non-dual experience be, if in the back of one's mind, subtle views of duality and inherency and tendencies continue to surface and affect our moment to moment experience - for example conjuring an unchanging source or mind that results in a perpetual tendency to sink back and referencing experience back to a source.
For example even after it is seen that everything is a manifestation of awareness or mind, there might still be subtle tendencies to reference back to a source, awareness or mind and therefore the transience is not appreciated in full. Nondual is experienced but one sinks back into substantial nonduality - there is always a referencing back to a base, an "awareness" that is nevertheless inseparable from all phenomena.
If one arises the insight that our ideas of an unchanging source, awareness or mind is just another thought - that there is simply thought after thought, sight after sight, sound after sound, and there isn't an inherent or unchanging "awareness", "mind", "source". Non-dual becomes implicit and effortless when there is the realisation that what awareness, seeing, hearing really is, is just the seen... The heard... The transience... The transience itself rolls and knows, no knower or other "awareness" can be found. Like there is no river apart from flowing, no wind apart from blowing, each noun implies its verb... Similarly awareness is simply the process of knowing not separated from the known. Scenery sees, music hears. Because there is nothing unchanging, independent, ultimate apart from the transience, there is no more sinking back to a source and instead there is full comfort resting as the transience itself.
Lastly do continue practicing the intensity of luminosity... When looking at tennis ball just sense the tennis ball fully.... Without thinking of a source, background, observer, self. Just the tennis ball as a luminous light. When breathing... Just the breathe... When seeing scenery, just sights, shapes and colours - intensely luminous and vivid without an agent or observer. When hearing music... Sound of bird chirping, the crickets… Just that - chirp chirp. A zen master noted upon his awakening... When I am hearing the bell ringing, there is no I and no bell... Just the ringing. The direct experiencing of no-mind and intensity of luminosity.. This is the purpose of the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness that is taught by the Buddha.” - Soh, 2011
Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am"
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am"
Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am"
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Nafis Rahman
Admin
"So we continue on with Bahiya’s meeting with the Buddha and the Buddha’s response to Bahiya’s urgent pleading to teach him how to truly enter the Great Way of freedom and happiness. Remember that although Bahiya has sought out the Buddha as a result of deep doubt and the realization that he is neither free nor practicing in a manner that will lead to freedom, he is nonetheless completely ripe to receive a teaching that will utterly transform him. He has dropped literally everything, emptied himself of everything except his completely focused urgency for awakening. The Buddha meets his simple openness with a simple and powerful response:
“Bahiya, this is how you should train yourself: Whenever you see a form, simply see; whenever you hear a sound, simply hear; whenever you taste a flavor, simply taste; whenever you feel a sensation, simply feel; whenever a thought arises, let it be simply a thought. Then “you” will not exist; whenever “you” do not exist, you will not be found in this world, another world or in between. That is the end of suffering.”
There are at least two approaches to understanding this teaching. The first is to follow closely just what the Buddha says; that this is an approach to training the mind and training one’s life; a teaching to be practiced and worked with as a process. Bahiya gets it in one deep jolt which he swallows whole, digests instantly and is fully awakened.
Most of us have to work at this as a practice for a very long time, and yet we don’t know how long Bahiya worked at his in order to come to this place, available for this encounter. And it doesn’t really matter whether we have gradual cultivation and sudden awakening, or sudden awakening followed by gradual cultivation. In fact both are not only true, together they encompass the whole of the life of practice-realization.
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See, hear, sense, touch, taste; everything happening all at once with no discrimination, preference or choice. Every sense door completely open, welcoming, receptive, alert, completely alive. So that listening is with the whole body/mind; every pore of our skin, every hair on the body, one whole receptive, alive field of listening. In this there is no “who”, is there? No “me” listening, is there? Check it out for yourself. It may be a little slippery to catch, because when “you” are only hearing, seeing, touching, tasting, smelling; there may not be anyone there to record or reflect on the experience; no “you” there! See what happens when you notice there is separation from what is; when the mind is wanting this to be some other way than just how it is. What happens in that moment of just seeing separation? What happens when you’ve traveled down the mind road and there is a sudden seeing of that? Was there a “you” in that moment of awareness? What if seeing is awakening? What is hearing is awakening? What if it is just as simple and as obvious as that? Then you might wonder what you are doing here on this retreat! What happens if there is just awareness of that thought? This is the practice of awakening, but it might be more accurate to say that it is really awakening which is practicing us!
- Douglas Phillips, Empty Sky Sangha
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Nafis Rahman
Admin
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/.../direct-experience/
The most important catalyst for triggering Awakening to no-self is to investigate our Direct Experience. Direct Experience is what is noticed, here and now.
We can skilfully divide d.E., for the purposes of investigation, into 3 main aspects:
1) thought
2) sensations
seeing
hearing
smelling
tasting
feeling [tactile + kinesthetic)
3) an unmistakable sense of Aliveness
(presence, being)
The illusion of separation is maintained by a stream of self referencing thoughts that are based on past conditioning. The most common reference point is a thought-created center referred to as “I” / “me” / “self”. There is no such center, and those self-labels refer only to other thoughts, or to some aspect of Experience.
By referring to d.E., one is able to deconstruct any assumptions of separation or self, and see that there is just an Experience. There may be thoughts about Experience that conceptually divide certain aspects of Experience into a “me” and other aspects into “the outside world”, yet those thoughts are also just a part of Experience, and as such there is ONLY Experience.
There is an assumption that there is an experience-er that experiences. This is propagated by a belief, as expressed by a thought such as “I experience”. We investigate this in d.E. by looking for this “I”. Is there a separate “I”, or is there just an Experience that thought conceptually divides as such: “I” + “what is experienced”?
There is an assumption that there is a perceive-er that perceives. This is propagated by a belief, as expressed by a thought such as “I am the perceiver”. We investigate this in d.E. by looking for this perceiver. We can see that there is no such thing as a perceiver, just a perception and thought dividing it in to an “I” + “body” + “perception through the senses”.
A sound is heard, then there is a thought “I hear a sound”. We can investigate and see that there is no hearer of sounds, just sound. If there is something felt and assumed to be the hearer, or self, is it anything more than some other sensations? or that sense of Aliveness? or another thought?
“I feel my body against the chair” a thought says. So, we investigate d.E. and see that there are sensations that are habitually labelled “body” and other sensations we refer to as “feeling of chair against body”. When we investigate where this “I” is that claims these sensations, it cannot be found, as there is either another self-referencing thought, some sensations or another aspect of Experience.
We can pick up an object, and look at it. We might say “I am looking at the object”. We then test this conclusion to see if it correlates with d.E., and what we find is that there is a sensation of seeing, and maybe some sensations that we usually label ‘head’ or ‘eyes’, or even other feeling-sensations labelled “body”. A thought may arise with the conclusion that these are inherently separate, and that one is “self” and the other is “what is observed”. When we test this out we see that there is never an “I” looking, never a watcher, never a seer. There is only seeing, only feeling, only Experiencing. We can say that it is simply Experience experiencing itself.
We look deeply in to Experience, and see that the assumptions of separation, self, “I”, perceive-er or an experience-er are just references to Experience. There is never an actual separate object, just the perception of such, and thoughts labeling it. We deconstruct all these assumptions of there being a watcher, or a looker, or a hearer, and find that there is only Experience, never an actual separate self.
Is it possible there is just Experience, with no separate experience-er?
...
There is no hearer, only sound
There is no seer, only forms, shapes, and colors
There’s no feeler, only sensations
There’s no thinker, only thoughts
There is no observer, only experience
...
Sutra Mahamudra is helpful as well.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Aditya Prasad good pointers here too but you may have already seen
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Yin Ling
Admin
“I AM” or “knowingness” or “presence” imo is not 6th consciousness, assuming you are referring 6th to thoughts?
However when we are dualistic, all objects are perceived by conceptualising, by thoughts, it is not direct perception. Even when you don’t use thoughts to perceive, there is still conceptualisation in duality. It has to be that way.
Direct perception is only when one have the non dual insight, and one will understand “knowing” is not via thoughts.
There is something very subtle and more beyond thoughts and that mode of perception is non conceptual. That’s the aim of the path of insight, direct perception and I AM ness is the taste of that which take us out of our identity of personal self , shifting us to another way of perceiving, however still subtly dualistic.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Yin Ling Yes and actually the actual taste and authentication of I AM itself is not dualistic at all, it is a totally nondual luminous taste of unfabricated Presence. The dualism and identity and turning it into a background creeps in only later.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
“Just my opinion...
For my case, the first time i experienced a definitive I AM presence, there was zero thought. just a borderless, all pervading presence. In fact, there was no thinking or looking out for whether this is I AM or not. There was no conceptual activity. It was interpreted as 'I AM' only after that experience.
To me, I AM experience is actually a glimpse of the way reality is.. but it is quickly re-interpreted. The attribute of 'borderlessness' is experienced. but other 'attributes such as 'no subject-object', 'transparent luminosity, emptiness are not understood yet.
My take, is that when 'I AM' is experienced, you will be doubtless that it is the experience.”
- Sim Pern Chong, 2022
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Aditya Prasad
Author
Yin Ling Thanks. I cannot tell whether we are saying the same or different things. A practitioner in I AM stage is subtly reifying Presence, and AtR describes that reification as an object in mental consciousness, no? Soh
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Aditya Prasad The reification is indeed a function of dualistic consciousness as an afterthought of the actual I AM experience, although not the unfabricated clarity/presence itself
I think Thrangu Rinpoche calls it the 8th consciousness but I need to check
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Aditya Prasad
Author
Soh Wei Yu The 8 consciousness model is strictly Vajrayana IIRC. Does standard Mahayana not have a place for it?
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Aditya Prasad Yes. Confirmed. Thrangu Rinpoche calls that the Alaya / 8th consciousness
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
The eighth, the all-ground consciousness, is also on-going or
uninterrupted. It is named all-ground, alaya, because it forms
the basis for all the others in the sense that they occur, remain
and again disappear within its expanse, its dimension.
The all-ground consciousness is not involved in thinking,
but is utterly serene. We mainly find it spoken about in the
teachings of the Mind-Only school, which holds that no
perceptions of so-called external objects are material or external.
But, if that is the case, then how do we perceive
things as existing materially outside of ourselves? While
things do not have concrete, material existence, we still see
them as if they had. Where do things appear? They unfold
within the all-ground consciousness, just like reflections
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CRYSTAL CLEAR
appearing within a mirror. The all-ground consciousness is
more like the basis for all the others. It is like the mirror,
whereas things are like the reflections in the mirror.
The all-ground consciousness is said to have two aspects.
One is as the retainer of habitual tendencies. The other is the
ground of all manifest habitual tendencies, i.e. when experience
takes place. When we act, form tendencies and create
karma do those inclinations become extinct? No, they do
not; they are somehow kept so that when causes and conditions
again meet, one is inclined to behave in a certain way.
The Mind-Only school explains that habitual tendencies
reside in the all-ground. This school does not accept the true
existence of matter; therefore, every experience is an occurrence
in the mind, unlike the two lower levels of philosophy
that believe things actually exist externally. When an experience
takes place, the Mind-Only school explains, it means
that the other seven consciousnesses are activated within the
arena of the all-ground consciousness,. each in a different way
according to its respective properties. The experience occurs
and is shaped in accord with one's habitual tendencies, and
we feel as if everything really does exist.
That explains the all-ground consciousness philosophically,
but- experientially what does it feel like? It is a sense of being
able to experience, a readiness for anything to occur. Sometimes
there are thoughts connected to the sixth consciousness,
other times not. Sometimes sense perceptions such as
seeing or hearing occur, other times not. Yet whether or not
any of these momentary events take place or are absent,
there is still the readiness to experience; there is a sense of
being unconfined, not petrified. We do not tum into a stone
at any point during the process; we do not become a corpse.
The living quality of mind is unconfined, unceasing, and this
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Aditya Prasad
Author
Soh Wei Yu Also just to be clear, what you are calling "the actual I AM experience" -- it is something that a practitioner at I AM stage is always in, but always immediately reifying, yeah?
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Soh Wei Yu
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CRYSTAL CLEAR
is the eighth consciousness: a lucid or cognizant readiness to
perceive that is always present whether or not there are
thoughts or sense perceptions.
Now, when it comes to training in meditation, which of
these eight consciousnesses is doing the practice? Let us
consider them one after the other. It is not the act of seeing
that meditates, nor the act of hearing, since the eye and ear
consciousness do not meditate, nor is it the tasting, smelling
or feeling. We can rule out the first five sense consciousnesses.
How about the eighth, the all-ground consciousness?
No, it doesn't either; it is more like the background and does
not actually meditate. Nor does the emotional consciousness
really do any meditation. The one that meditates is the sixth,
the mind consciousness.
Now the principle of eight conscioushesses does not mean
that we have eight different minds, but rather eight aspects of
one conscious identity. They are all still present when one
understands the true nature of mind; they are merely seen as
facets of the same empty and cognizant mind. Therefore,
when we investigate and look into mind, whatever aspects it
has are all complete. It is not that some of them vanish. In
the context of meditation, the mind consciousness is more
like the lucid or cognizant quality of the all-ground-it is
what thinks, discriminates and conceptualizes. During the
training in shamatha, this discriminating tendency is allowed
to relax, so that thoughts diminish. The feeling of ego or
'me' does not cause any trouble; it is on-going but it does
not interfere. In this way shamatha is being done by the
mind consciousness.
Vipashyana is to look into the very nature of what perceives.
When seeing one looks into that which perceives
visual form, what the eye consciousness really is. By doing
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CRYSTAL CLEAR
so, one discovers that it is a clear empty cognizance; there is
no thought involved, nor any conceptualizing. When looking
into what hears, tastes, smells and feels physical sensations,
we discover that the perceiver is an empty cognizance.
Regarding thoughts and emotions-as mentioned above
during the time of innate mind, innate thoughts, and innate
emotions-all of these movements of mind take place as
movements of the sixth consciousness. But when we look
into exactly what moves, thinks and feels, again we discover
that it is intangible; it is merely an empty movement of an
empty cognizance. At that moment the all-ground consciousness
is evident, and so some people may think that
looking into the very identity of what experiences, perceives
and thinks, is no other than the all-ground consciousness.
But that is not really correct. The all-ground consciousness is
more the background while not recognizing the nature of
what experiences. When looking into and recognizing that
the nature of mind really is an empty cognizant quality, the
all-ground consciousness no longer serves as the basis for
further delusion or the support for samsaric experience, but
rather original wakefulness, wisdom itself
Reply1d
Aditya Prasad
Author
Oh I'm wrong, 8th consciousness is standard Mahayana. Thank you.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
"Aditya PrasadAuthor
Soh Wei Yu Also just to be clear, what you are calling "the actual I AM experience" -- it is something that a practitioner at I AM stage is always in, but always immediately reifying, yeah?"
Not necessarily always in the actual authentication. You can get that pure authentication in a samadhi state, but not necessarily all the time, but there is a sense of an unshakeable identity shift and certainty.
Also see excerpts from
https://docs.google.com/.../16QGwYIP.../edit...
Excerpt:
John Tan: It’s non conceptual. Yup. Okay. Presence is not conceptual experience, it has to be direct. And you just feel pure sense of existence. Means people ask you, before birth, who are you? You just authenticate the I, that is yourself, directly. So when you first authenticate that I, you are damn happy, of course. When young, that time, wah… I authenticate this I… so you thought that you’re enlightened, but then the journey continues. So this is the first time you taste something that is different. It is… It is before thoughts, there is no thoughts. Your mind is completely still. You feel still, you feel presence, and you know yourself. Before birth it is Me, after birth, it is also Me, 10,000 years it’s still this Me, 10,000 year before, it’s still this Me. So you authenticate that, your mind is just that and authenticate your own true being, so you don't doubt that. In later phase…
Kenneth Bok: Presence is this I AM?
John Tan: Presence is the same as I AM. Presence is the same as… of course, other people may disagree, but actually they're referring to the same thing. The same authentication, the same what... even in Zen is still the same.
But in later phase, I conceive that as just the thought realm. Means, in the six, I always call the six entries and six exits, so there is the sound and there’s all these… During that time, you always say I’m not sound, I’m not the appearance, I AM the Self that is behind all these appearances, alright? So, sounds, sensations, all these come and go, your thoughts come and go, those are not me, correct? This is the ultimate Me. The Self is the ultimate Me. Correct?
ATR Meeting 28 October 2020
DOCS.GOOGLE.COM
ATR Meeting 28 October 2020
ATR Meeting 28 October 2020
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William Lam: So, is that nondual? The I AM stage. It’s non-conceptual, was it nondual?
John Tan: It’s nonconceptual. Yes, it is nondual. Why is it nondual? At that moment, there is no duality at all, at that moment when you experience the Self, you cannot have duality, because you are authenticated directly as IT, as this pure sense of Being. So, it’s completely I, there’s nothing else, just I. There’s nothing else, just the Self. I think, many of you have experienced this, the I AM. So, you probably will go and visit all the Hinduism, sing song with them, meditate with them, sleep with them, correct? Those are the young days. I meditate with them, hours after hours, meditate, sit with them, eat with them, sing song with them, drum with them. Because this is what they preach, and you find these group of people, all talking about the same language.
So this experience is not a normal experience, correct? I mean, within the probably 15 years of my life or 17 years of my life, my first... when I was 17, when you first experienced that, wah, what is that? So, it is something different, it is non conceptual, it is non dual, and all these. But it is very difficult to get back the experience. Very, very difficult, unless you're in when you're in meditation, because you reject the relative, the appearances. So, it is, although they may say no, no, it is always with me, because it's Self, correct? But you don't actually get back the authentication, just pure sense of existence, just me, because you reject the rest of that appearances, but you do not know during that time. Only after anatta, then you realize that this, when you when you hear sound without the background, that experience is exactly the same, the taste is exactly the same as the presence. The I AM Presence. So, only after anatta, when the background is gone, then you realize eh, this has the exact same taste as the I AM experience. When you are not hearing, you are just in the vivid appearances, the obvious appearances now, correct. That experience is also the I AM experience. When you are even now feeling your sensation without the sense of self directly. That experience is exactly the same as I AM taste. It is nondual. Then you realize, I call, actually, everything is Mind. Correct? Everything. So, so before that, there is an ultimate Self, a background, and you reject all those transient appearances. After that, that background is gone, you know? And then you are just all these appearances.
William Lam: You are the appearance? You are the sound? You are the…
John Tan: Yes. So, so, that is an experience. That is an experience. So after that, you realize something. What did you realise? You realise all along it is the what, that is obscuring you. So… in a person, for a person that is in I AM experience, the pure presence experience, they will always have a dream. They will say that I hope I can 24 by 7 always in that state, correct? So when I was young, 17. But then after 10 years you are still thinking. Then after 20 years, you say how come I need to always meditate? You always find time to meditate, maybe I don't study also meditate, you give me a cave last time I will just meditate inside.
So, the the thing that you always dream that you can one day be pure consciousness, just as pure consciousness, live as pure consciousness, but you never get it. And even if you meditate, occasionally probably you can have that oceanic experience. Only when you after anatta, when that self behind is gone, you are not 24 by 7, maybe most of your day, waking state, not so much of 24 by 7, you dream that time still very karmic depending on what you engage, doing business, all these. (John mimics dreaming) How come ah, the business…
So, so, in normal waking state, you are effortless. Probably that is the, during I AM phase, what you think you are going to achieve, you achieve after the insight of anatta. So you become clear, you are probably in the right path. But there are further insights you have to go through. When you try to penetrate the… one of them is, I feel that I become very physical. I am just narrating, going through my experience. Maybe that time… because you experience the relative, the appearances directly. So everything becomes very physical. So that is how you come to understand the meaning, how concepts actually affect you. Then what exactly is physical? How does the idea of physical come about, correct? That time I still do not know about emptiness, and all these kind of things, to me it is not so important.
So, I start going into what exactly is physical, what exactly is being physical? Sensation. But why is sensation known as physical, and what is being physical? How did I get the idea of being physical? So, I began to enquire into this thing. That, eh, actually on top of that, there is still further things to deconstruct, that is the meaning… that, just like self, I’m attached to the meaning of self, and you create a construct, it becomes a reification. Same thing, physicality also. So, you deconstruct the concepts surrounding physicality. Correct? So, when you deconstruct that, then I began to realize that all along, we try to understand, even after the experience of let’s say, anatta and all these… when we analyze, and when we think and try to understand something, we are using existing scientific concepts, logic, common day to day logic and all these to understand something. And it is always excluding consciousness. Even if you experience, you can lead a spiritual path you know, but when you think and analyze something, somehow you always exclude consciousness from the equation of understanding something. Your concept is always very materialistic. We always exclude co
nsciousness from the whole equation.
Reply1d
Aditya Prasad
Author
Soh Wei Yu Thanks, this is getting closer to the heart of my question. So a practitioner at I AM is not always in the I AM experience -- but they always DO have *something* that the non-practitioner does not have. It's not just a mental certainty, either. How do we characterize this "something" then? Is it access to the 8th consciousness?
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Aditya Prasad They have the direct realization, and they realize and tasted directly the luminous essence. So they know "that is what I am". Like someone who tasted chocolate beyond mere words or labels of what chocolate is. Yet it does not mean they are actually tasting chocolate all the time or being in nirvikalpa samadhi all the time.
Nondual anatta will allow you to taste "chocolate" (the luminous clarity) everywhere, all the time, because all manifestations will share the same taste. It becomes effortless. Yet at the beginning it is just nondual, one must mature into anatta and emptiness. One taste is all phenomena being same taste in Both luminosity and emptiness, and not just the aspect of luminous clarity. When Ken Wilber talked about one taste, he only realised the luminous clarity aspect being nondual in all manifestations but he did not realise anatta and emptiness, so it is not Mahamudra's one taste proper.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
In day to day living while not in samadhi (for the I AM phase) one reverts to sort of a background container image of Presence. You can call it alaya.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
It is actually a captured imprint and image of the nondual actual authentication. But wrongly grasped, it becomes eighth consciousness. Cognizance reified as a background.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
But then I'm not an expert in those dharma terminologies. You can ask Thrangu Rinpoche if that is what he meant. haha
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Aditya Prasad
Author
Soh Wei Yu Thanks. There is certainly *something* in my present experience that seems to differ from others (just based on the language we use), and I'm trying to clarify how AtR would characterize it. I think your last comment answers it: Presence reified is what we call the 8th consciousness.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
In the actual authentication of I AM, there is no dualism between background and foreground. It only appears as a background while not in that authentication.
Reply23hEdited
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
In 2009:
“(10:49 PM) Thusness: by the way you know about hokai description and "I AM" is the same experience?
(10:50 PM) AEN: the watcher right
(10:52 PM) Thusness: nope. i mean the shingon practice of the body, mind, speech into one.
(10:53 PM) AEN: oh thats i am experience?
(10:53 PM) Thusness: yes, except that the object of practice is not based on consciousness. what is meant by foreground? it is the disappearance of the background and whats left is it. similarly the "I AM" is the experience of no background and experiencing consciousness directly. that is why it is just simply "I-I" or "I AM"
(10:57 PM) AEN: i've heard of the way people describe consciousness as the background consciousness becoming the foreground... so there's only consciousness aware of itself and thats still like I AM experience
(10:57 PM) Thusness: that is why it is described that way, awareness aware of itself and as itself.
(10:57 PM) AEN: but you also said I AM people sink to a background?
(10:57 PM) Thusness: yes
(10:57 PM) AEN: sinking to background = background becoming foreground?
(10:58 PM) Thusness: that is why i said it is misunderstood. and we treat that as ultimate.
(10:58 PM) AEN: icic but what hokai described is also nondual experience rite
(10:58 PM) Thusness: I have told you many times that the experience is right but the understanding is wrong. that is why it is an insight and opening of the wisdom eyes. there is nothing wrong with the experience of I AM". did i say that there is anything wrong with it?
(10:59 PM) AEN: nope
(10:59 PM) Thusness: even in stage 4 what did I say?
(11:00 PM) AEN: its the same experience except in sound, sight, etc
(11:00 PM) Thusness: sound as the exact same experience as "I AM"... as presence.
(11:00 PM) AEN: icic
(11:00 PM) Thusness: yes”
“"I AM" is a luminous thought in samadhi as I-I. Anatta is a realization of that in extending the insight to the 6 entries and exits.” – John Tan, 2018
Reply23h
Aditya Prasad
Author
Soh Wei Yu Okay. The "taste" of I AM is certainly there any time I look. It sounds like this is not what AtR calls the "experience of I AM," but a (very long-lasting) residue of that experience. Even in "I AM realization," the experience is not always there, but the residue (as 8th consciousness) is, I guess.
Reply23h
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Aditya Prasad Yeah. One can feel a constant uncurrent of luminosity, but it is being reified as a background behind everything. That is also not the actual nondual authentication.. more like cognizance tainted or moulded into a Self or a background. One can experience that luminosity in varying intensity but not the purest form of it like in samadhi. Some people at I AM are very drawn into nirvikalpa samadhi and spend days and nights in meditation. Like Ramana, and John Tan was also inclined towards that in his earlier years.
In Nirvikalpa Samadhi, everything else can be shut, but what is left is awareness aware of itself as itself. Just pure nondual Beingness. There is no observer-observing-observed. Only Pure Presence, self-knowing, a doubtless sense of Beingness that has no contrast to anything else either as background or foreground. There is just pure consciousness aware of itself, or as I said in 2009 "
(10:57 PM) AEN: i've heard of the way people describe consciousness as the background consciousness becoming the foreground... so there's only consciousness aware of itself and thats still like I AM experience
(10:57 PM) Thusness: that is why it is described that way, awareness aware of itself and as itself."
Reply23hEdited
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
"I AM realization" I would say I AM realization comes with the experience, then the afterthought moulding turns it into dualistic background
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Aditya Prasad
Author
Soh Wei Yu You often distinguish experience and realization, but maybe I've misunderstood the distinction. Here you seem to be saying that the I AM experience always results in I AM realization? Or is it that the experience sometimes turns into background (called I AM realization) and sometimes is forgotten afterward?
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Aditya Prasad no... actually I AM realization is more crucial.
I had I AM experiences for years even before I AM realization. They are glimpses that comes and goes. Sometimes a sense of being an ever-present witness, sometimes a sense of pure existence that is unmoving, sometimes vast spaciousness like a sense of awareness as being like a sky through which clouds pass by, but all these never came with the total unshakeable certainty of Beingness that marked my I AM realization in Feb 2010.
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Aditya Prasad
Author
Soh Wei Yu Okay thanks, that is how I had understood it before. I misunderstood your previous comment about "I AM realization comes with the experience."
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Aditya Prasad Comes with the pure nondual authentication of beingness. “...There is nothing underneath everything, in the state of I AM, it is just I AM. The rest of the 5 sense doors are shut. Everything else is excluded. It is called I simply because of the koan, nothing else.
What’s experienced is similar to hearing sound without the sense of hearer. So keep the experience but refine the view.” - John Tan 2019
Reply22hEdited
Diederik van der Boor
Katherine Willow the realization is also a necessary step in the process. Not all phases have to go in a fixed order, but do come together to shift towards deeper realizations.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
When background is empty, foreground is empty, twofold empty, there is no fixation on the fabricated image of luminosity as inherently 'here' or 'there'. Then there is no insomnia.
Then there is no abiding, no straining, no efforting, mere spontaneous presence and self liberation, dependent origination and emptiness.
“(2:17 PM) Thusness: with the condition of a body, manifest along with the condition of a body. just like the 'eye' can only 'see' certain range, let it be. Not to strain the eyes for what it is not. 🙂 but in each experience, discern with clarity the luminous presence.”
The straining and efforting in fact becomes an unconscious habit. It is not so much that you consciously "efforts" into grasping at a background or foreground, you can't help it. To use a poor analogy, a house cat always returns to its home at night even if free to roam around the city. Because of ignorance that projects inherent existence, one has a very strong identity of a "home base" as a "background", this "background" is just a conjured image, a fabricated image of a moment of nondual luminosity that is reified in a dualistic and inherent way, it is not the true nature of that luminosity. By sheer habit the mind always returns back to this conjured image of a "home base" like the cat, unknowingly and habitually. This referencing back to a background becomes a momentum of its own until it goes so deep into the sleep, even if you fall asleep you suddenly snap out of the dream state or thought back to a witnessing background by your own karmic momentum, and this wakes you up because you cannot 'be' the sleep non-dually (and as Thusness said, deep sleep is a natural nondual samadhi, a precious state). That was my experience during the I AM. Luckily the problem didn't develop very much and I proceeded into nondual and anatta not too long later. Only insight into anatman can truly break through that illusion of a background, and for some people even after the anatman breakthrough it takes 1 or 2 years to stabilize (for me it merely took months).
Likewise if one experience intensity of luminosity in the foreground, actually there is nothing wrong with that and this is a natural state after anatta, but if there is even the slightest grasping or straining or efforting, that is like not 'manifest along with the conditions', that is not being fully aligned with the empty, spontaneous, ungraspable, unlocatable, dream-like, reflections/mirage-like nature of empty-presence-appearance. Everything becomes light and traceless (rather than strong and solid, etc) without subtle straining or grasping at what was never truly 'there'. Wanting to experience more of what is empty, ephemeral and ungraspable in any way is the problem. That is not being aligned with the empty insubstantial nature of presence and dependent arising
In short, all the problems arise when one over fixates on the luminosity or focus on it more than its empty nature. Be it background I AM or foreground PCE. The karmic momentum can be so strong as to cause serious energy imbalances. So over focusing on the luminosity aspect rather than realizing and actualizing fully the empty nature of luminosity/presence is the root of many such problems. http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../putting-aside...
Putting aside Presence, Penetrate Deeply into Two Fold Emptiness
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Putting aside Presence, Penetrate Deeply into Two Fold Emptiness
Putting aside Presence, Penetrate Deeply into Two Fold Emptiness
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Soh Wei Yu
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"The remedy seems to be undoing this habit by focusing on the (other) five sense fields."
This is going in the right direction but not enough to dissolve the I AM based insomnia. The only real antidote is the anatman realization. Without that, the illusion of an ultimate background persists and the unconscious habit to reference back in sleep goes unabated.
But focusing luminosity on the five senses is a good way to practice one of the four aspects of I AM -- the intensity of luminosity. http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../four-aspects-of-i... and it is also important condition for further insights into nondual and anatta.
More than that, you also need to contemplate on the two anatta stanzas and bahiya sutta until you breakthrough and realize anatta as a dharma seal.
Four Aspects of I AM
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Four Aspects of I AM
Four Aspects of I AM
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Soh Wei Yu
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Aditya Prasad I just sent this convo to someone else, probably you've seen it before but just in case you haven't (or want to re read it):
"Session Start: Monday, September 22, 2008
(12:31 PM) AEN: hi i replied you just now
(12:31 PM) AEN: i mean forum
(12:54 PM) Thusness: don't talk about effortless and spontaneity
(12:54 PM) Thusness: if we look at Isis question, why is it so?
(12:54 PM) Thusness: why is there fear and phobia?
(12:55 PM) Thusness: What is mind?
(12:56 PM) AEN: bcos of past experiences right
(12:56 PM) AEN: like something happened before
(12:56 PM) AEN: and so when he/she experience something (like dog)
(12:57 PM) AEN: then he/she will react through conditioned thinking
(12:57 PM) AEN: so give rise to fear
(12:57 PM) Thusness: you are using logical reasoning
(12:57 PM) AEN: its like habitual reaction
(12:58 PM) AEN: or karmic propensity?
(12:58 PM) Thusness: all experiences that resulted has just one impact, they becomes imprints
(12:58 PM) AEN: oic
(12:58 PM) Thusness: so what is mind?
(12:58 PM) AEN: imprints and mental activities?
(12:58 PM) Thusness: you must feel it
(12:59 PM) Thusness: it is not an entity...
(12:59 PM) Thusness: it is a tendency
(12:59 PM) Thusness: that is not as an entity...u still have that sensation as if it is a Witness, an entity because you cannot feel this truth yet.
(1:00 PM) Thusness: can you see that mind As an arising tendency
(1:01 PM) AEN: the other day when meditating i had a sense suddenly that my entire mind is just tendencies arising, and there is like no thinker
(1:01 PM) Thusness: yes
(1:02 PM) Thusness: you must first feel this truth with your entire being
(1:02 PM) Thusness: like what Jeff Foster said, 'YOU' are just an arising thought
(1:02 PM) AEN: oic
(1:02 PM) Thusness: don't worry too much how it arises and how it subsides
(1:03 PM) Thusness: for now, you must see 'what is'
(1:03 PM) Thusness: a thought arises, then subsides
(1:03 PM) Thusness: then sound, then subsides
(1:03 PM) Thusness: then another thought arises
(1:04 PM) Thusness: what is thought?
(1:04 PM) AEN: just thought lor
(1:04 PM) AEN: awareness?
(1:04 PM) Thusness: no good
(1:04 PM) AEN: its like a kind of phenomena just like sound, sight, etc
(1:05 PM) AEN: but a different kind
(1:05 PM) Thusness: very good
(1:05 PM) Thusness: very good. 🙂
(1:05 PM) Thusness: what sort of phenomena?
(1:05 PM) AEN: dunnu how to describe it leh
(1:05 PM) AEN: mental phenomena?
(1:05 PM) Thusness: haha...
(1:05 PM) Thusness: yes what is it like?
(1:06 PM) AEN: images recalled, mental reasoning, arising in the mind?
(1:07 PM) Thusness: yes
(1:07 PM) AEN: words, etc
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
(1:07 PM) Thusness: but what that is more important, it is a 'knowing' or 'luminous' phenomenon
(1:07 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:08 PM) Thusness: an arising thought, then another arising thought
(1:08 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:08 PM) Thusness: each thought is 'luminous'
(1:08 PM) Thusness: first you must know this
(1:08 PM) Thusness: but if you see it from all previous experiences, you 'see' differently.
(1:09 PM) Thusness: what is seen is 'An Eternal Witness' sort of experience.
(1:09 PM) Thusness: is it not true?
(1:10 PM) AEN: yea
(1:10 PM) AEN: and theres a subtle tendency to push away all thoughts rather than simple see everything as it is
(1:10 PM) AEN: or rather
(1:10 PM) AEN: attempt to be the background awareness
(1:10 PM) Thusness: yes the tendency to push, to relate to a 'center' a source
(1:10 PM) Thusness: to be a container, a background
(1:11 PM) Thusness: you must feel the differences
(1:11 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:12 PM) Thusness: it is just a tendency to relate back to a source and refuses to 'see' what is.
(1:13 PM) Thusness: every arising of a thought carries with it deeply rooted imprints
(1:13 PM) Thusness: that 'blinds'
(1:13 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:14 PM) AEN: and the eternal witness is the thought of what is and what isnt awareness right, then becomes a tendency
(1:14 PM) AEN: to sink back to a center
(1:14 PM) Thusness: yes
(1:14 PM) Thusness: but first you must understand 'thought'
(1:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:15 PM) Thusness: a thought is luminous
(1:15 PM) Thusness: a luminous arising mental phenomena
(1:15 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:15 PM) Thusness: isn't it?
(1:16 PM) AEN: yes
(1:16 PM) Thusness: besides that what else? Isn't it always so?
(1:16 PM) Thusness: 'You are just an arising thought'
(1:17 PM) Thusness: a luminous thought at this moment 'looking' back, relating
(1:17 PM) Thusness: pondering
(1:17 PM) Thusness: in thinking, there is only thoughts
(1:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:17 PM) Thusness: now meditate on the stanza
(1:18 PM) Thusness: in thinking there is only thought
(1:18 PM) Thusness: in hearing, there is only sound
(1:18 PM) Thusness: just this two lines is enough
(1:19 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:21 PM) AEN: so whenever thoughts, tendency arise, we should just experience the thought as it is
(1:21 PM) AEN: as luminous
(1:21 PM) Thusness: no
(1:22 PM) Thusness: you must first understand clearly what is meant by no-self
(1:23 PM) Thusness: but know what is thought first.
(1:23 PM) Thusness: then understand anatta
(1:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:31 PM) Thusness: What is the different between in 'thinking, no thinker' and in thinking, only thoughts?
(1:31 PM) AEN: the luminosity of the thought is not thoroughly experienced even though there is insight into no split?
(1:31 PM) AEN: i dunno
(1:32 PM) Thusness: until you understand, then tell me.
(1:32 PM) Thusness: 😛
(1:32 PM) AEN: lol ok
(1:35 PM) AEN: in thinking, only thought, means each thought is discrete and complete?
(1:35 PM) AEN: no linking
(1:37 PM) AEN: before that there is still chaining of one thought with another?
(1:39 PM) Thusness: okie..so so only...anyway you have not understood the real essence of being unsupported, discrete and complete yet.
(1:40 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:40 PM) Thusness: just meditate on the first 2 lines : in thinking, just thoughts and in hearing, just sound
(1:40 PM) AEN: ok"
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