The Dispeller of Disputes: Nagarjuna's Vigrahavyavartani

https://www.amazon.com/Dispeller-Disputes-Nagarjunas-Vigrahavyavartani/dp/0199732701

Yin Ling's summary document:

https://app.box.com/s/rgn8huf18b11couujyclrbsbs8kefvxt

Also see:

• Conventional Validity and Causal Efficacy
• Don't Neglect the Conventional

John Tan

S0h1hao7m4fl6s93orltm  ·
Ok enough of blahing for few weeks, this will be my last post.
For those who conclude mmk denies causal efficacy,
they have unknowingly fallen into the essentialist view of "true existence". Mmk only teaches if cause and effect exist essentially, then casuality is untenable and impossible.
Therefore don't just say "ultimately causality, self and phenomena are empty" but deeply understand:
In anatta, there is action without agent.
In prasangika, action is performed by empty agent.
As such "empty wars" kill, "empty self" suffers, empty self takes rebirth and only empty things have causal relations.
That is y Nagasena can be ferried by an "empty chariot".
Hence, don't neglect the imagined and experience the wonderment of seeing emptiness of the conventional.
An early Happy New Year to all and happy journey to all my dharma friends!

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William Lim
Nice blahing!
More empty blahing in the new year please.

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Yin Ling
So good. Why is the last post

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Geovani Geo
Starting from where the 'usual' man stands: All things are mind. There is not s single event/thing/no-thing that is not in the mind brought in by the senses. So, what are 'things, 'distance', 'weight' or 'mass'? Nothing but a breeze, a hazy appearance, a dream. Nothing. And, what is 'mind' and 'senses'? Likewise, nothing. When the mind is nothing, everything is nothing, beyond 'is' or 'is not'.
"Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."
~ Shakespeare ~
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Geovani Geo
And:
“At no time throughout the beginningless succession of lifetimes has there ever been an actual birth. There has only been the appearance of birth. There has never been actual death, only the transformation of appearances like the shift from the dream state to the waking state . . . throughout the beginningless succession of lifetimes there has never been any actual experience of transition or going from one state to another, or any actual experience of being located in some other place. This is analogous to the images in a dream.”
~ Longchenpa
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John Tan
Geovani Geo there is no need to worry about birth and death ultimately but that is quite useless if we do not know about the conventional that we r trapped. Even empty words sets the mind spinning and emotional obturations in motion.
We thought all along only truly existence things can initiate action and this is misknowledge and confusion; rather it is empty phenomena that r imaginary and non-existence entities setting things in motion. It is this imaginary entity that is experiencing karma and that is how the karma works and as long as we r not Buddha, it will continue endlessly. For the benefit of u as a sincere practitioner. Anyway I will be away for quite some time. Enjoy the ride and happy new year.
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John Tan
Geovani Geo what u quoted must go hand in hand with this:
Longchenpa on Nihilism
From Finding Rest in the Nature of Mind.
Those who scorn the law of karmic cause and fruit
Are students of the nihilist view outside the Dharma.
They rely on the thought that all is void;
They fall in the extreme of nothingness
And go from higher to lower states.
They have embarked on an evil path
And from the evil destinies will have no freedom,
Casting happy states of being far away.
”The law of karmic cause and fruit,
Compassion and the gathering of merit -
All this is but provisional teaching fit for children:
Enlightenment will not be gained thereby.
Great yogis should remain without intentional action.
They should meditate upon reality that is like space.
Such is the definitive instruction.”
The view of those who speak like this
Of all views is the most nihilist:
They have embraced the lowest of all paths.
How strange is this!
They want a fruit but have annulled its cause.
If reality is but a space-like void,
What need is there to meditate?
And if it is not so, then even if one meditates
Such efforts are to no avail.
If meditation on mere voidness leads to liberation,
Even those with minds completely blank
Attain enlightenment!
But since those people have asserted meditation,
Cause and its result they thus establish!
Throw far away such faulty paths as these!
The true, authentic path asserts
The arising in dependence of both cause and fruit,
The natural union of skillful means and wisdom.
Through the causality of nonexistent but appearing acts,
Through meditation on the nonexistent but appearing path,
The fruit is gained, appearing and yet nonexistent;
And for the sake of nonexistent but appearing beings,
Enlightened acts, appearing and yet nonexistent, manifest.
Such is pure causality’s profound interdependence.
This is the essential pith
Of all the Sutra texts whose meaning is definitive
And indeed of all the tantras.
Through the joining of the two accumulations,
The generation and completion stages,
Perfect buddhahood is swiftly gained.
Thus all the causal processes
Whereby samsara is contrived should be abandoned,
And all acts that are the cause of liberation
Should be earnestly performed.
High position in samsara
And the final excellence of buddhahood
Will speedily be gained.
- Finding Rest in the Nature of Mind (vol 1)
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Geovani Geo
John, yes, the whole story of movement and volition is in the imaginary realm. We where used to look at 'things' and 'events' as if outside, mistake which is the triggering of samsara. Things and events have no basis, no ground. How funny: if we touch the empty lucid factor that leads to the equalness of all appearances, we are unable to find such factor.
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Geovani Geo
"The fruit is gained, appearing and yet nonexistent;
And for the sake of nonexistent but appearing beings,
Enlightened acts, appearing and yet nonexistent, manifest."
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John Tan
Geovani Geo yes therefore understanding imagined non-existence things having no basis and no ground is not yet even half the journey. For authenticatic path and right understanding and "speedily be gained" as longchenpa said, read the text above by him line by line otherwise one falls into nihilism.
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John Tan: I think u have read enough of books and u already have the books needed to refine your understandings post anatta. 

From anatta-->deconstruction of both mind and phenomena into empty appearances as one's radiance clarity-->freedom from all elaborations (mmk)-->spontaneous presence

What u lack is the nuances of anatta in actual experience that is difficult to tell as the energy system differs for each person and can only be known by that individual when he tasted it.  Otherwise u just actualize through the 6 parimatas.

Find out what diet combinations help u detox so that your inner organs become healthy and less inflammatory + deep restful sleep.  U have to understand what is most crucial is the evenness of non-dual at the moment of sleep and the moment…

Soh: Oic..
[12:20 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: When u say "Cause and effect are empty but not a rejection of dependent origination", do u know what it means? (Soh: from Don't Neglect the Conventional)
[8:48 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Y do u like to cut and put our conversations in other forums for what?
[8:48 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: A simple answer just answer Ur own

Soh: Oic..
Cause and effect are empty doesnt mean they are nonexistent
But they are dependent designations.. like father and son (Soh: see Relationship Between Father and Son and Dzogchen: Beyond Cause and Effect). So it is not inherent cause and inherent production. Like chariot and parts are also dependent designations.. awareness and object of awareness.. and so on. In freedom from proliferation, awareness and object of awareness, cause and effect are all emptied into nondual suchness.. but in terms of relative they are expressed as dependent designations. Father and son, consciousness and object of consciousness and so on are neither same nor different, merely dependently designated and empty
In terms of relative the seeing of dependent designation also allows penetrating into total exertion
Freedom from proliferation is more like -A

John Tan: Yes also Like cup or self, although these r conceptual notions however they have conventional validity.  There is no "cup" or "self" are empty and non-arisen, but there r conventional validity in that there is a functioning purpose.  Cause and effect serves their purpose this way linking the conventions.

Soh: Oic.. like that time malcolm mentioned,

Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:09 am
Well, actually the I-making habit, the basic knowledge obscuration, has no real existence as a self, but it functions as an agent of karma and a recipient of karma, so there is that, even though the "I" it imputes does not exist at all.


...

No, it is an imagined, nonexistent self that causes and experiences everything, for example, when a car is in accident, it is the imagined car for which one pays the damages, not the wrong view of the imagined car. But perhaps this is a special point of Candrakīrti's Madhyamaka, unlikely to be found the Visuddhimagga.
[10:27 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Lol yeah
[10:28 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: When we neglect all these, we become nihilistic.
[10:29 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: What the non prasangika don't understand is they thought there must be real referent in order to have causal efficacy.
Soh: Ic..
[10:31 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Even in objective science, gravity explains perfectly the man-size John Tan: Newtonian world but there is no "gravity" as a force pulling any object as explained in relativity.
[10:33 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Like fiat money is empty but moves the world.
Soh: Oic..
John Tan: And it is precisely that because the conventional r empty of any essential nature, such causal relationships r possible, inherent and truly existing things can't.

https://www.upaya.org/2013/08/revealing-nagarjuna-series-all-12-parts/

André A. Pais

fYeh4stge4rda9ony at h580edl:26 PM0  ·
John Dunne 'Revealing Nagarjuna'
upaya.org
Revealing Nagarjuna Series: All 12 Parts - Upaya Zen Center
The 12 part series Revealing Nagarjuna is now published. You can access the desired part of the series by clicking on its link below: Revealing Nagarjuna Series (Part 1) Revealing Nagarjuna Series (Part 2A) Revealing Nagarjuna Series (Part 2B) Revealing Nagarjuna Series (Part 3) Revealing Nagarjuna....

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Tyler Jones
Whoa, goldmine! Have you listened to any of this? Certain other lectures series on Madhamaka have proved underwhelming.

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André A. Pais
I've listened to this several years ago. Intend on listening again. Right now I'm listening to his lectures on Dharmakirti. Highly recommended!

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John Tan
Tyler Jones yes truly good. Very insightful. A great teacher.

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Tyler Jones
André, where are the Dharmakirti lectures? I've managed to put off any deep study of Pramana, but lectures by a teacher of this calibre might be what changes this.
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André A. Pais
https://www.ryi.org/free-online-resources
Scroll down until you find it. Westerhoff's lectures in there are also good.

RYI.ORG
Free Online Resources | Rangjung Yeshe Institute
Free Online Resources | Rangjung Yeshe Institute
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https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10159557884067158&id=617267157

Soh: Thanks.. u listened to them? Is it good?

John Tan: Yes and still listening.  Very very good. Very quality teachings.

Go listen

[2:19 pm, 06/12/2021] John Tan: U must listen to the series of teachings by John dunne.  All of anatta are in it.  I m just overwhelmed.

Soh: Oic.. wow
Andre:

https://www.ryi.org/free-online-resources

In here, you'll find John Dunne's lectures on Dharmakirti, namely on reflexive awareness. Some very interesting non-dual pointers and insights.
[6:07 pm, 06/12/2021] John Tan: 👍
[10:13 pm, 06/12/2021] John Tan: Part 4-5A series explanations are a bit incongruent

Soh:
why incongruent? i haven't got there yet
still on the first part lol

[10:45 pm, 06/12/2021] John Tan: Incongruent in his explanation on a few things including cause and effect

Soh:
ic..
should i add this to the sidebar in AtR blog? haha
'Stickied Posts'
[10:59 pm, 06/12/2021] John Tan: First 3 series is good
[10:59 pm, 06/12/2021] John Tan: I don't think so
[11:00 pm, 06/12/2021] John Tan: But it is worthwhile u make some notes

[6:06 am, 07/12/2021] John Tan: Andre send me a link to John dunne short notes.  I think it will be good to have ATR a link on all of John dune work.
[8:39 am, 07/12/2021] John Tan: Part 6 onwards is good.  It's abt anatta and non-dual.
[8:45 am, 07/12/2021] John Tan: In part 7, he talks about anatta is already is as an anatta insight.
[8:46 am, 07/12/2021] John Tan: Yes [to adding this into the sidebar in AtR blog]
[8:50 am, 07/12/2021] John Tan: Part 7, he is also talking about awareness as presentation rather than representation. 👍
Soh: Ok then i add it to sidebar

John Tan: Have u listened to John dunne?

Part 8 is abt total exertion, integration of the conventional and emptiness. Self sprung compassion without the sense of subject and object yet integrating the conventional.  The object continues whereas the structure(dual structure) collapsed.  However in part 7, he also mentioned he doesn't quite understand this 3rd level of compassion which is interesting.

Soh: Still on the first one.. halfway. He is v clear on anatta

John Tan: It is truly good except part 4a-4b and the beginning and mid of part 5 where I find there is incongruence in view when explaining how the various tools of ultimate analysis like "sameness and difference", 7-reasonings and "one and many" analysis can collapse the structure.  His understanding is pretty similar to Tsongkhapa understanding although he is a student of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche which is more Kagyu and Nyingma.

In other words, everything thing about the 7 phases of insights are discussed. U should go through all until the end.

Part 6 onwards is abt anatta and non-dual as an experience and insight.

I will be going into his Dharmakirti lectures posted by Andre in the FB later since wisdom experience support hasn't resolved my email typo error issue yet.

Btw he said Dharmakirti called it "mere reflexive awareness".

Empty luminosity

No wonder I find so much the voice of Tsongkhapa in his teachings... haha.👍

Although he mentioned nothing about Tsongkhapa...🤣🤣🤣

Soh:This is a text by john dunne?
John Tan: Yes
[1:58 pm, 07/12/2021] John Tan: His book on foundation of Dharmakirti philosophy
[2:00 pm, 07/12/2021] John Tan: Tell him [Mr JKB who recently realised anatta] to go through all the series of John dune

——-

André A. Pais
Admin
https://www.ryi.org/free-online-resources
In here, you'll find John Dunne's lectures on Dharmakirti, namely on reflexive awareness. Some very interesting non-dual pointers and insights.

RYI.ORG
Free Online Resources | Rangjung Yeshe Institute
Free Online Resources | Rangjung Yeshe Institute

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Liu Zhi Guan
John Dunne seems to be following Tibetan system, originallu a student of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and now studies with Tulku Urgyen's sons Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche and Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche. Will check out later.
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