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Curious what folks here think about self-referential thoughts as a marker of development beyond anatta.
There are folks who claim to have no self-referential thoughts. Gary Weber and Bernadette Roberts (now deceased) come to mind. They do have practical, non-emotional thoughts, but that still means that 95+% of the time their mind is in stillness.
Gary also claims to have eliminated all suffering as a result of there being no self-referential thoughts.
The AtR guide mentions how thoughtlessness is not the goal. I get this, since having no self-referential thoughts is likely not necessary to realize two-fold emptiness. But for those who realize anatta and still experience self-referential thoughts, I wonder if further cultivation and releasing of attachments might not still the mind completely.

Soh Wei Yu
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This is related to a conversation between Thusness/John Tan and Sim Pern Chong in early 2007:
It is like what i have said before there is various depths to non-duality.
There appears to be 2 distinct 'levels' of me.
In the first level, mental thoughts are still quite active. Here thoughts arises but there is no thinker. Here no subject-object split is clearly understood.
At this level there is the ‘insight’ of no-self but momentum continues.
However momentum stops being re-enforced.
And there is another distinct level that mental thoughts loses it attraction all together. In this level, there feels like cognitions have
been de-constructed.
There are several reasons:
1. Here most of the propensities that resulted from holding to the illusion view of a background begin to subside.
2. When background subsides, Natural awareness takes place and there is natural tendency to feel everything directly, the burden is being more equally distributed to the rest of the five senses instead of being skewed to just
‘thinking’ alone.
3. A subtle “insight” is about to take place or has already taken place. It is the “insight” that ‘content’ is the problem of all problems. It is what that conjured out all sorts of illusions, fears and worries.
4. The practice of the second door is gaining strength at the pre-conscious
This is a blissful level and it feels like resting on 'nothing'.
It is resting on ‘nothing of content’ but it is resting on ‘peace, clarity, blissfulness, vitality’. Here focus is gradually shifting from "content" of the mind to "qualities" of the mind. The qualities of mind has nothing to do with “content".
But without the first level non-duality, the second level cannot be moved into.
Thusness/John Tan:
This need not be the case. The first level of ‘insight’ is more important from my point of view. It is what that leads to Oneness. A person that practices mindfulness may enter the second level u mentioned without first having that ‘non-dual’ insight of the first level, this in fact has been my case for many years. It is due to the ability to sustain for a prolong period of bare attention or non-conceptuality. The understanding of no-self here can still remain as ‘no-personal self' or as a form of mirror bright clarity that is free of labels but the mirror still exist in a dualistic form. In the second level, the sense of ego diminishes but the attachment of a background is still strong and insight into
"non-dual" has not really aroused.
Edited by Thusness 31 Jan `07, 9:33PM
However, Gary Weber and Bernadette Roberts lack the insight of anatta. The former is into I AM and impersonality (see: different degrees of no self that I wrote: while the latter is the transition from I AM into nondual but not yet realising the seal of anatta (Bernadette is discussed in )
Thusness's Conversations Between 2004 to 2012
Thusness's Conversations Between 2004 to 2012
Thusness's Conversations Between 2004 to 2012
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Craig Nichols
Soh Wei Yu Is the *permanent* ending of self-referential "blah blah" thoughts / a silent mind associated with any ATR stage in particular?
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Soh Wei Yu
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Craig Nichols it is related to what john tan calls transforming five skandhas to eighteen dhatus
I have like tons of conversations on this subject in earlier years with john tan (somehow unpublished yet, i should probably post as a separate blog post) but im travelling now and will post later
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Soh Wei Yu
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Craig Nichols but do note it can just be impersonality without anatta insight as in the case of gary, etc.
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Soh Wei Yu
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Craig Nichols it is very difficult for me to copy texts from iphone from my source document (chat logs) due to new restrictions so this should suffice for now, see the first conversation dated 14 sept 2007: Session Start: Friday, 14 September, 2007
Some 2007 conversations from phone notes
Some 2007 conversations from phone notes
Some 2007 conversations from phone notes
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Soh Wei Yu
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Craig Nichols just updated the page again
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Soh Wei Yu
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With the “
(11:56 AM) Thusness: longchen is like entering the 18 dhatus.
(11:56 AM) AEN: icic..
(11:57 AM) Thusness: or into DO (dependent origination)
(11:57 AM) Thusness: just the arising and passing away
(11:57 AM) Thusness: without the need for a center, a locality in a non-conceptual mode. 🙂
(11:58 AM) AEN: oic..
(11:59 AM) Thusness: depending on the depth of clarity and the ability to drop, there is a very deep joy in whatever arises in a normal condition.
(12:00 PM) Thusness: it is a sort of bliss of luminous presence without the sense of self, division, locality and conceptuality
(12:00 PM) Thusness: it can also turn into a sort of absorption.
(12:00 PM) Thusness: that is the result of clear insight of our empty luminosity.
(12:00 PM) Thusness: not the result of deep concentration.
(12:01 PM) Thusness: this is very difficult to understand.
(12:01 PM) Thusness: it is an effortless absorption.
Session Start: Friday, August 22, 2008
(12:29 AM) Thusness: U must watch the second video
(12:29 AM) AEN: which one
(12:29 AM) AEN: the one that explains oneness rite
(12:30 AM) Thusness: And know the difference betw” etc
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Craig Nichols
Soh Wei Yu thank you so much for your detailed reply. I read through the chat log. Is it OK if I ask how it proceeded for you?
In other words, is what John Tan wrote about 5 aggregates into 18 dhatus the specific set of insights that led to how self-referential thoughts (blah blah thoughts, the kind of incessant ongoing internal monologue) fell away for you and left you with a silent mind?
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Soh Wei Yu
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Craig Nichols Craig Nichols boarding plane now to overseas. Will post briefly, the details are in my e journal.
Inclination to silence and samadhi is there even at I AM phase. Similar to ramana maharshi, eckhart tolle (have you read the power of now?) and gary.
As john tan said years ago, “Like being silent and experience luminosity is in everyone that break-through IMness.
Like hearing music or gazing sky, there is not even a sense of dual and background. When sitting quietly listening to music, the clarity of sound is no diff from my heart beats...even drips of water of a tap...
However this is not the practice of mature practitioners.”
I went through various gradations of nondual experience after anatta which matured over the next years. The details can be found in my ejournal, but as a summary its rather similar to
The Different Degrees of Non-Duality
The Different Degrees of Non-Duality
The Different Degrees of Non-Duality
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Craig Nichols
Soh Wei Yu thanks, have a safe flight
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Soh Wei Yu
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In feb 2007:
(10:22 PM) Thusness: i termed it
(10:22 PM) AEN: oh haha
(10:22 PM) Thusness: as a distinct phase of crystal clarity.
(10:22 PM) AEN: oic
(10:22 PM) Thusness: going through all 3 phases.
(10:23 PM) Thusness: in the first round one is unable to break through all 3 phases
(10:23 PM) Thusness: although there is no entry or exit in non-dual.
(10:23 PM) AEN: icic
(10:24 PM) Thusness: it is not that there is a second round.
(10:24 PM) Thusness: lol
(10:24 PM) Thusness: as what longchen said. 🙂
(10:25 PM) AEN: icic
(10:25 PM) AEN: oh but i tot u can maintain non dual in sleep? 😛
(10:26 PM) Thusness: there is no need to maintain anything during deep sleep.
(10:26 PM) Thusness: it is non-dual by itself.
(10:26 PM) Thusness: more pure than anything. 🙂
(10:26 PM) Thusness: but just like what longchen said in one of his posts, there are various phases
(10:27 PM) Thusness: in the first phase, there is no thinker but thinking
(10:27 PM) Thusness: in later refinement of non-duality, there is no thoughts and thoughts have lost their attraction.
(10:28 PM) AEN: back
(10:28 PM) AEN: oic...
(10:28 PM) AEN: no thoughts meaning few thoughts rite... not no thoughts 😛
(10:28 PM) Thusness: but these are not phases of non dual. Rather they are the different degrees of luminosity
(10:28 PM) Thusness: yeah
(10:29 PM) AEN: ok
(10:29 PM) AEN: icic
(10:29 PM) Thusness: there is always non-dual like what longchen said.
(10:29 PM) Thusness: means he has understood it as a seal.
(10:29 PM) Thusness: no-self is a seal.
(10:29 PM) Thusness: a dharma seal.
Also see:
Are the insight stages strictly linear?
I wrote this based on what Thusness/PasserBy have said regarding his Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Experience on Spiritual Enlightenment - not to think of the 7 stages as strictly linear or having a hierarchy.
Some are able to understand the profound wisdom of emptiness from the start but have no direct experience of luminosity, then luminosity becomes a later phase. So does that mean the most pristine experience of "I AM" is now the last stage? On the other hand, some have experienced luminosity but does not understand how he got himself 'lost', as there is no insight to the karmic tendencies/propensities at all, therefore they cannot understand Dependent Origination adequately. But does that mean that the one that experiences emptiness is higher than the one experiencing luminosity?
Some people experience non-dual but do not go through the I AM, and then after non-dual the I AM becomes even more precious because it brings out the luminosity aspect more. Also, when in non-dual, one can still be full of thoughts, therefore the focus then is to experience the thoroughness of being no-thoughts, fully luminous and present... then it is not about non-dual, not about the no object-subject split, it is about the degree of luminosity for these non-dualist. But for some monks that is trapped in luminosity and rest in samadhi, then the focus should be on refining non-dual insight and experience. For non-dualists, depending on the level of understanding, one can move forward and backward, there is no hierarchy.
So just see the phases as different aspect of insights of our true nature, not necessarily as linear stages or a 'superiority' and 'inferiority' comparison. What one should understand is what is lacking in the form of realization. There is no hierarchy to it, only insights. Understanding this means that one will be able to see all stages as flat, no higher.
Labels: Stages of Enlightenment |
Are the insight stages strictly linear?
Are the insight stages strictly linear?
Are the insight stages strictly linear?
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Someone asked:

"So does that mean as the unfoldment to deeper insights, there is less and less grasping onto Pure Presence

Stop creating any kind of identities cuz all states are seen as equal in the One Taste

And that allows the Pure Instant Presence to seep deeper into all the sense gates

Until the 5 aggregates are empty out into Pure Presence of the 18 dhatus


Soh replied:

"Yes and even 18 dhatus are deconstructed especially after mahayana emptiness (like heart sutra)

[12/9/23, 6:06:45 PM] John Tan: What is the difference between 5 aggregates, 18 dhatus, dzogchen basis?
[12/9/23, 6:07:32 PM] Soh Wei Yu: For dzogchen, five aggregates are afflicted. When appearances are recognised as self display (empty clarity), they are the five dhyani buddhas or five lights of wisdom
[12/9/23, 6:07:49 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Afflicted as in reified
[12/9/23, 6:08:09 PM] John Tan: I asked u these
[12/9/23, 6:09:19 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Five aggregates can be like after anatta there are just aggregates. But can still be reified as real like af or hinayana schools. Eighteen dhatus is like free from mental formation. Dzogchen basis i suppose includes twofold emptiness so eighteen dhatus or they say the five elements revert to the five lights, empty clarity
[12/9/23, 6:09:56 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Then when the process completes then rainbow body and all is experienced like rainbow light and purity .. from body to whole universe
[12/9/23, 6:10:09 PM] John Tan: So in ocean and wave, what r the five lights?
[12/9/23, 6:12:03 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Just the colors or blue, as pure vivid empty radiance, like rainbow
[12/9/23, 6:13:11 PM] John Tan: What else
[12/9/23, 6:21:00 PM] Soh Wei Yu: When not reified, blue is empty and clear but non existent appearances. Does not exist on its own side in terms of subject and object or phenomena or extremes. When reified due to ignorance, blue becomes inherent ocean and waves.. ocean producing waves, etc
[12/9/23, 6:30:38 PM] John Tan: 5 aggregates, 18 dhatus, basically are the same = the All.  Just degree of deconstruction.
[12/9/23, 6:34:06 PM] John Tan: When u deconstruct wave and ocean, it is just radiance clarity of pellucidity of sound, taste, colors of the imputed notion of wave and ocean.
[12/9/23, 6:37:40 PM] John Tan: Driving. Talk later.

‎[3/10/23, 1:51:35 PM] Soh Wei Yu: krodha wrote in reddit: “Perception” (saṃjñā) means a cognition that apprehended characteristics, which means it is a dualistic cognition. So-called primordial mind would therefore be free of “perception.”
[3/10/23, 1:51:45 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Interesting definition of perception by kyle dixon
[3/10/23, 1:51:51 PM] Soh Wei Yu: So 18 dhatus is five aggregates freed of above
[3/10/23, 1:54:03 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Apprehended characteristics sounds like objects and its characteristics, like rose and redness belonging to rose
[3/10/23, 3:07:11 PM] Yin Ling: Perception is like sankhara? Confused with terminologies. To me primordial mind is just luminosity that is empty, nothing there at all
[3/10/23, 3:07:40 PM] Yin Ling: Characteristics have to take one step down to conceptualise
[3/10/23, 3:08:16 PM] Soh Wei Yu: …saññā); (4
[3/10/23, 3:08:22 PM] Soh Wei Yu: The third aggregate
[3/10/23, 3:08:52 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Saññā | Buddhist doctrine
perceptions of sense objects (Sanskrit: saṃjñā; Pāli: saññā); (4) mental formations (saṃskāras/sankhāras); and (5) awareness, or consciousness, of the other ...
[3/10/23, 3:12:44 PM] Yin Ling: Not sure if I understand it correctly haha
[3/10/23, 11:52:33 PM] John Tan: Depends.  This is not an easy topic but in general is, both perception and cognition are tainted therefore conceptual at least to gelug.
[3/10/23, 11:53:39 PM] John Tan: But yogacara they r somehow incoherent in their system about these.
[3/10/23, 11:54:02 PM] John Tan: This is according to theradava.
[3/10/23, 11:58:55 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[3/10/23, 11:59:09 PM] John Tan: Eliminate samskaras into 18 dhatus.  Sort of practice of bare attention and naked awareness.  

But if one is free of conceptual elaborations, how can there be 18 dhatus?
[4/10/23, 12:08:17 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah
[4/10/23, 12:37:50 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[4/10/23, 12:38:55 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah dzogchen exhausts five aggregates into five wisdoms

"Just as the Buddhas have spoken of 
"I" and "mine" for a practical purpose;
Likewise they spoke too of "aggregates", 
"Elements" and "sense-fields" for a practical reasons. 

Such things spoken of as the "great elements",
These are fully absorbed into consciousness;
Since they are dissolved by understanding them,
Are they not falsely imputed?"

- Nagarjuna: excerpt from his 60 Stanzas"


“julian_baggini_is_there_a_real_you (

Another thing that I noticed in your message above is where you're saying that the 5 senses produce their respective objects without a self to be found. This statement is actually stacking too much on top of the natural state as it is... if you can notice in immediate experience; the 5 senses as faculties are not present... the '5 senses' designation is merely a convention, which is useful for communication but lacks existence apart from it's conventionality... likewise objects are designations implemented merely for conventional purposes(not to be denied, but seen for what they are as merely conventions). You're already stepping toward trying to see the absence of the self in experience, but it would be helpful to see the senses and objects as empty as well. So what this means is that in your immediate experience there is no evidence of the self and there is no evidence of the senses and their respective objects. In immediate experience it is "just this" no self, no senses, no objects, just the natural state which is beyond designation. If you try to hard to "see it", this is again the self trying to "see it", it needs to be understood that it is already always the case. The senses don't apprehend objects... the objects ARE the senses, the senses ARE the objects, and they are not two... but even this is saying too much.... it's just BOOM right there, happening now. In the seeing just the seen, doesn't imply that there are "things" which are seen... it just implies that it all contracts into a zero dimensional suchness... there's no objective happening... it's full union. 

Now as for the "awareness"... the awareness aspect” (continue reading from link)

Also related:

Session Start: Friday, August 22, 2008
(12:29 AM) Thusness:     U must watch the second video
(12:29 AM) AEN:    which one
(12:29 AM) AEN:    the one that explains oneness rite
(12:30 AM) Thusness:    And know the difference between Advaita non-dual and buddhism anatta
(12:30 AM) Thusness:    Not only that.
(12:30 AM) AEN:    u mean the second or third video
(12:31 AM) Thusness:    Second and third
(12:31 AM) AEN:    btw the video is advaita non dual rite
(12:31 AM) Thusness:    Second I watched liao. 
(12:31 AM) AEN:    icic
(12:31 AM) AEN:    the third one is talking about wat.. momentum?
(12:31 AM) Thusness:    The cartoon Yes...
(12:31 AM) AEN:    icic
(12:32 AM) Thusness:    The second is much deeper.
(12:32 AM) AEN:    btw is that still stage based or like stage 2?
(12:32 AM) AEN:    u mean the third video?
(12:32 AM) Thusness:    The url I posted u.
(12:33 AM) AEN:    huh which one
(12:33 AM) AEN:    wait ah
(12:33 AM) AEN:    the url u posted leads to the chanting :P
(12:33 AM) AEN:    the first video
(12:34 AM) AEN:    u're talking about the donkey one or wat
(12:34 AM) Thusness:    ???? (Yuan Yin Lao Ren)
(12:34 AM) Thusness:    No
(12:35 AM) Thusness:    the second explanations
(12:35 AM) Thusness:    I will watch all of it.
(12:35 AM) AEN:    wait
(12:35 AM) Thusness:    If I got time.
(12:35 AM) AEN:    the one u said is in the same series rite?
(12:36 AM) Thusness:    Yes
(12:37 AM) AEN:    i cant find what ???? leh :P first one chanting, second one is the oneness, third one is the donkey, fourth is chanting beads
(12:37 AM) AEN:    fifth is spider
(12:38 AM) Thusness:    Then u posted wrongly on the buddhism forum.
(12:38 AM) AEN:    o.0
(12:38 AM) AEN:    then what u clicked.. lol
(12:38 AM) AEN:    u said in the same series rite?
(12:38 AM) Thusness:    Too bad.  He is the level of practitioner I m looking for.
(12:38 AM) Thusness:    But dead liao.
(12:38 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:39 AM) AEN:    wait
(12:39 AM) AEN:    u mean the ???? video is the cartoon series?
(12:39 AM) AEN:    i mean
(12:39 AM) AEN:    not*
(12:39 AM) Thusness:    No
(12:39 AM) Thusness:    Not cartoon.
(12:39 AM) AEN:    ooh
(12:39 AM) AEN:    then i wrong liao
(12:40 AM) AEN:    btw the cartoon u said stage 2 understanding but stage 5 experience... then is that pathless?
(12:41 AM) Thusness:    No
(12:41 AM) Thusness:    The cartoon is not about emptiness
(12:41 AM) AEN:    icic
(12:42 AM) Thusness:    Some explanations r still ok
(12:42 AM) AEN:    but is it pathless or stage like experience
(12:43 AM) Thusness:    Not pathless
(12:43 AM) AEN:    icic
(12:44 AM) Thusness:    That is just my view.
(12:44 AM) Thusness:    U just hv to know.
(12:44 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:44 AM) AEN:    btw the ???? isit a 20 minute video?
(12:45 AM) Thusness:    Longer than that
(12:45 AM) Thusness:    Think abt an hour.
(12:46 AM) AEN:    aiya u send me wrong URL just now :P
(12:46 AM) AEN:    send me back to the cartoon.. hahaha
(12:46 AM) Thusness:    If u can understand what he said, u will understand the essence of 5 and 6.
(12:46 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:46 AM) AEN:    he also describe stage 6?
(12:47 AM) Thusness:    Not describe but direct experience.
(12:47 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:48 AM) Thusness:    One that broke the stage 5 and understand 6 but no philosophical concepts
(12:48 AM) Thusness:    Direct experience
(12:48 AM) AEN:    oic.. u mean he didnt use emptiness as raft?
(12:49 AM) Thusness:    I dunno
(12:49 AM) AEN:    oic
(12:49 AM) Thusness:    Got to listen more.
(12:49 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:50 AM) Thusness:    he is the sort of practitioner I seek for.
(12:50 AM) Thusness:    Self liberation
(12:51 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:55 AM)    Thusness is now Offline
(12:58 AM) AEN:    btw the cartoons are not from ???? leh :P
(1:58 AM) AEN:    ???? said he go pure land: ??????????????,?????????,??????????”,??,????????,
(1:58 AM) AEN:    btw he vajrayana practitioner?
(2:45 AM) AEN:    ahaha last part a bit funny, someone thought he attained enlightenment then call the master, the master told him u havent attain enlightenment yet :P
(2:50 AM) AEN:    the master seems to recommend chanting and rebirth in pure land more than meditation
(3:20 AM) AEN: -- video 19, 14:00 minute onwards, the master talk about shen hsiu's poem on the mirror is still grasping on form, hui neng's poem on mirror without stand is grasping on formless... and he made his own poem, ?????,?????
?????, ?????
(3:22 AM) AEN:    ????: ???:“??????”???????????:“?????!”?????,???????????,??“????????”??????????????:“?????,??????”?????,?????????!“?????,?????”?????,????????????,?????,????,????!???????????????????
(3:40 PM) AEN:    btw a few days ago i dreamt that u sent me a online video link and tell me go watch, then 2 days later u really send me a video link.. hahaha
(3:42 PM) Thusness:    from non-dual to anatta and to emptiness.  You must have clarity.
(3:42 PM) AEN:    icic..
(3:42 PM) AEN:    i just finished watching the first video
(3:43 PM) Thusness:    the second one is important
(3:43 PM) AEN:    oh u finished the part 2?
(3:43 PM) AEN:    the one that started with tantric practice one
(3:43 PM) Thusness:    then tell me why is it so important
(3:44 PM) Thusness:    then u have to refine ur understanding of non-duality from ken wilber and advaita understanding and buddhism approach.
(3:44 PM) Thusness:    When u have the experience later, u will know what i meant.
(3:44 PM) Thusness:    but it is not easy.
(3:44 PM) AEN:    oic..
(3:45 PM) Thusness:    no self from the 5 aggregates to 18 dhatus to DO to Empty Luminosity.
(3:45 PM) AEN:    icic..
(3:47 PM) AEN:    btw u said the 2nd video
(3:47 PM) AEN:    isit the one that started about tantric practice
(3:49 PM) Thusness:    36
(3:50 PM) Thusness:    yes
(3:51 PM) AEN:    ya that one it started discussing about tantric practice
(3:51 PM) AEN:    i haven watch yet
(3:57 PM)    Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle
(3:58 PM) AEN:    i later then watch..
(3:58 PM)    Thusness has changed his/her status to Online
(10:58 PM) AEN:    the 2nd one is impt cos it incorporates emptiness rite, it talks about non duality but also explains that all forms are empty and impermanent
(11:01 PM) Thusness:    Not only that.
(11:01 PM) Thusness:    Compare what he said abt stage 6.
(11:03 PM) Thusness:    Anyway I wrote something about stage 6.
(11:03 PM) Thusness:    For u to have a clearer understanding.
(11:04 PM) Thusness:    Why it is very important to have clear understanding of emptiness
(11:05 PM) Thusness:    How u should move from non-dual to buddhist anatta, DO and emptiness.
(11:06 PM) AEN:    icic.. ok
(11:08 PM) Thusness:    After stabilizing non-dual experience, it is very important to establish firm view on Emptiness.
(11:08 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:09 PM) Thusness:    Don't be afraid of establishing firm view of emptiness and DO.
(11:10 PM) Thusness:    Don't be worried of being non-conceptual.
(11:10 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:11 PM) Thusness:    Non-dual experience will lead u to non-conceptuality, to naked awareness naturally.
(11:12 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:13 PM) Thusness:    But for prajna wisdom to arise, establish firmly ur understanding of DO and emptiness.
(11:14 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:16 PM) Thusness:    After understanding of non-dual experience from the Buddha's teachings of anatta, DO and emptiness.  u will become very clear.
(11:17 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:17 PM) Thusness:    It needs few years to understand non-dual from Buddha's teachings.
(11:18 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:18 PM) Thusness:    The pre-requisite is a stabilized non-dual experience.
(11:19 PM) AEN:    oic ya longchen also realised emptiness after stabilizing his non dual experience and also 2-3 years after first realising non dual rite
(11:22 PM) Thusness:    you will understand why impermanence yet no movement correctly.
(11:22 PM) Thusness:    Yes...

Weiyu, [5/7/2024 1:17 PM]
(11:22 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:24 PM) Thusness:    But still need to incorporate non-dual experience into anatta, emptiness and DO.  This will need another 2-3 yrs.
(11:24 PM) Thusness:    Will write something about it.
(11:25 PM) Thusness:    It is very important.
(11:25 PM) AEN:    u mean it will take another 2-3 years after stabilized non-dual experience?
(11:25 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:29 PM) Thusness:    after stabilizing non-dual experience for 2y,  another 2-3 yrs r needed to understand emptiness aspect of our non-dual luminosity.
(11:29 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:30 PM) AEN:    so longchen is only beginning to understand emptiness and still needs a few years?
(11:30 PM) Thusness:    Understand as in direct experience of the DO empty nature.
(11:30 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:30 PM) Thusness:    Yes and that is just the beginning
(11:30 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:32 PM) Thusness:    I told u there will be a period of desync and practitioner will find it easier to rest in naked awareness
(11:32 PM) Thusness:    But he will miss something valuable.
(11:33 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:34 PM) Thusness:    not many can escape these phases.
(11:34 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:35 PM) Thusness:    The video u need to hear a few times.
(11:35 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:35 PM) Thusness:    Compare it with the comments on stage 6.
(11:35 PM) AEN:    ok
(11:36 PM) Thusness:    Know that insight must arise what 'feeling'
(11:37 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:37 PM) Thusness:    What is most important in video 2?
(11:38 PM) AEN:    emptiness?
(11:39 PM) Thusness:    What emptiness?
(11:39 PM) Thusness:    Which phrase?
(11:42 PM) AEN:    many phrases :P
(11:43 PM) Thusness:    Like?
(11:46 PM) Thusness:    Don't paste whatever I told in the forum.
(11:46 PM) AEN:    ok
(11:46 PM) AEN:    i cant remember wat phrase liao
(11:49 PM) Thusness:    Within a short video, there are some very important advices that only true practitioner that has intuitive insight
(11:50 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:50 PM) Thusness:    Into emptiness and non-dual insight know
(11:50 PM) AEN:    oic..
(2:12 PM) Thusness:    what is the url for the buddhachat regarding ur conversation with Element?
(2:13 PM) AEN:
(2:13 PM) AEN:    havent posted since.. no time
(2:13 PM) Thusness:    haha...ic. :)
(2:13 PM) Thusness:    don't think of longchen non-conceptuality first.
(2:14 PM) Thusness:    u should focus on the deepening ur clarity of advaita non-duality to buddhist form of non-duality aka anatta
(2:14 PM) Thusness:    then emptiness
(2:15 PM) Thusness:    then experience this until the entire teaching of Buddha becomes so clear to u.
(2:15 PM) AEN:    icic..
(2:15 PM) Thusness:    longchen's phase is also the result after understanding Emptiness
(2:16 PM) Thusness:    and that understanding of Emptiness is aligning with his non-dual experiences
(2:16 PM) Thusness:    therefore he is into right understanding of stage 6.
(2:17 PM) Thusness:    but stage 6 is the right 'view' of non-duality and it has to burn the bonds of the senses first.
(2:17 PM) Thusness:    then into non-registration of impressions.
(2:17 PM) Thusness:    it is not suitable for u.
(2:17 PM) AEN:    oic..
(2:18 PM) Thusness:    because his non-dual experiences have stabilized, the understanding of emptiness helps in articulating all his non-dual experiences
(2:18 PM) Thusness:    that is the arising of non-dual insight
(2:19 PM) Thusness:    later it will become so clear as moment to moment of experience and the subtle 'bond' of the 6 senses gradually dissolve
(2:19 PM) Thusness:    into one DO experience.
(2:20 PM) AEN:    icic..
(2:20 PM) Thusness:    so for you, u should first understand with clarity and know the various subtle stages and clarity of the differences.
(2:21 PM) Thusness:    Even after aligning non-dual experience and emptiness view, the dissolving of the bond on each sense organ differs.
(2:22 PM) Thusness:    a practitioner starts to walk out of meditation and find it easier to get authenticated in activities
(2:22 PM) Thusness:    in opening eyes
(2:22 PM) Thusness:    he walks and feel as if as the ground reality
(2:23 PM) Thusness:    but when he/she returns to sitting quietly in meditation, that non-dual experience is gone.
(2:23 PM) Thusness:    or is not that obvious
(2:23 PM) Thusness:    that is what i meant by the subtle bond...
(2:23 PM) AEN:    why when sitting the experience is gone
(2:37 PM) Thusness:    Actually it is because we become more aware of the 'center'
(2:37 PM) Thusness:    that is the 'center' is still there
(2:37 PM) Thusness:    that 'center' becomes more obvious when we sit.
(2:38 PM) Thusness:    that tendency becomes more obvious.
(2:38 PM) AEN:    ooh no wonder u said
(2:38 PM) AEN:   

1. There is a mirror reflecting dust. (“I AM”)     

     Mirror bright is experienced but distorted.  Dualistic and Inherent seeing.

2. Dust is required for the mirror to see itself.

    Non-Dualistic but Inherent seeing.  (Beginning of non-dual insight)

3. Dust has always been the mirror ( The mirror here is seen as a whole)

   Non-Dualistic and non- inherent insight.
(2:38 PM) AEN:    btw the center is just a bond?
(2:38 PM) Thusness:    just but the 'bond' is still strong
(2:39 PM) Thusness:    there is some points u have to take note.
(2:39 PM) Thusness:    a person after stabilizing non-dual experience and understanding emptiness
(2:39 PM) Thusness:    is different from one that is not.
(2:40 PM) Thusness:    that is, have no fear of establishing firm view on Emptiness especially for a non-dual experiencer
(2:40 PM) Thusness:    because it becomes more of a medicine for the deeply held propensity
(2:41 PM) Thusness:    the understanding will dissolve into non-conceptual experience of non-dual presence.
(2:42 PM) Thusness:    the reason why non-dual experience become more difficult to maintain when not in activity is because Emptiness view has not replaced the deeply held dualistic/inherent view
(2:43 PM) AEN:    oic..
(2:43 PM) Thusness:    without the right view, a non-dual practitioner will still struggle unknowingly
(2:43 PM) Thusness:    and naked awareness and non-conceptuality can at this phase becomes an escape
(2:43 PM) Thusness:    so it depends which level a practitioner is in.
(2:44 PM) Thusness:    once the view is firmly established, it serves as an antidote, when sitting, touch, taste, sound are emptiness and operate like DO.
(2:45 PM) Thusness:    means first is the 5 aggregates, then 18 Dhatus then mere DO
(2:45 PM) Thusness:    all are non-dual experience but the depth differs
(2:45 PM) Thusness:    i told u about the 5 aggregates are already non-dual insight and experience right?
(2:46 PM) Thusness:    then the extra layer of mental formation begin to subside, it stops registering imprints
(2:46 PM) Thusness:    or begin to register less
(2:46 PM) Thusness:    transforming to 18 dhatus without the mental formation
(2:47 PM) AEN:    icic..
(2:47 PM) Thusness:    but the previous tendency is still strong
(2:48 PM) Thusness:    so sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, mind still act with the tendency
(2:49 PM) Thusness:    now at this stage, one can rest in naked awareness or firmly establish the view of emptiness
(2:49 PM) Thusness:    it will dissolve the six senses into one DO, empty nature
(2:49 PM) Thusness:    just this is that is
(2:49 PM) Thusness:    no eyes, ears...
(2:49 PM) Thusness:    it is anchored at the deep most level
(2:50 PM) Thusness:    practitioner will know it when sitting and opening eyes and all activities is becoming non-dual
(2:50 PM) Thusness:    the sense of self almost dissolve
(2:50 PM) Thusness:    then experiences become non dual and non local
(2:50 PM) Thusness:    that is stage 6.
(2:50 PM) AEN:    oic..
(2:51 PM) AEN:    what does non local feel like
(2:51 PM) Thusness:    it is just a 'bond' that there is locality
(2:51 PM) Thusness:    that consciousness is at some place
(2:52 PM) Thusness:    it is a clear experience of non-movement and all pervadingness
(2:52 PM) Thusness:    yet ceaseless manifestation
(2:52 PM) AEN:    the master talked of a story of su dong po went to fo yin chan shi and said something jokingly like why sit on this chair, no good or what.. then the zen master ask him all the 4 greats and 5 skandhas are empty, now tell me where are u sitting?
(2:52 PM) AEN:    oic..
(2:53 PM) Thusness:    what is no movement?
(2:53 PM) Thusness:    there is arising and ceasing but there is no movement
(2:53 PM) Thusness:    this is due to empty nature of our non-dual luminosity
(2:53 PM) Thusness:    there is no from point A to point B
(2:54 PM) Thusness:    there is A, B
(2:54 PM) Thusness:    there is only movement when there is a from A to B
(2:54 PM) Thusness:    but when the center is gone, non-dual experience align with Emptiness nature, this becomes clear
(2:55 PM) AEN:    icic..
(2:55 PM) Thusness:    after stabilizing stage 6 is the lou jing tong (from internet: 6. Asavakkaya - Supramundane knowledge or power relating to the destruction of asavas and the recognition of the Four Noble Truths)
(2:56 PM) Thusness:    each dissolving of each organ becomes a tong (siddhi)
(2:56 PM) AEN:    oic why
(2:56 PM) Thusness:    because it becomes non local and non dual
(2:56 PM) AEN:    icic..
(2:56 PM) Thusness:    the 'bond' that prevents it is gone
(2:57 PM) Thusness:    the 'bond' that limits and obstructs is gone
(2:57 PM) AEN:    oic..
(2:57 PM) Thusness:    but 'bond' is gone is mostly not obvious
(2:57 PM) Thusness:    the 'bond' is very subtle
(2:58 PM) AEN:    icic..
(2:58 PM) Thusness:    so fearlessly open up
(2:58 PM) Thusness:    let go of everything
(2:59 PM) AEN:    oic..
(2:59 PM) AEN:    sometimes v hard to let go leh, haha
(3:00 PM) Thusness:    that is because u have not oriented urself totally with Emptiness nature
(3:00 PM) Thusness:    this is very important
(3:00 PM) Thusness:    but only after non-dual experience one can realise the importance
(3:00 PM) AEN:    icic..
(3:00 PM) Thusness:    u watch the video of the Master Yuan Yin
(3:01 PM) AEN:    ya?
(3:01 PM) Thusness:    u cannot grasp the essence?
(3:01 PM) AEN:    need to watch again haha
(3:01 PM) Thusness:    :)
(3:03 PM) AEN:    another day maybe.. studying for exams.. and my mind today not so gd, a bit depressed over certain things.. heh
(3:03 PM) Thusness:    work hard
(3:03 PM) Thusness:    :)
(3:04 PM) AEN:    ok thanks

Different phases of understanding dependent origination:

[12:14 AM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Means the whole appearance is an unfolding of dependent origination, has no referent besides the magical unfolding that is nowhere to be found but vividly spontaneously displayed
[12:14 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Now if I tell u in total exertion, the sound of someone opening the door is like my heart beat...
[12:15 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: The Aircon is closer than my skin
[12:16 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: So how is this different?
[12:17 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: A vivid sponstaneous display before division...
[12:18 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Like color, sensation, sound, odor
[12:21 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Hearer hearing sound


Ear, sound and sound consciousness


Now if I tell u in total exertion, the sound of someone opening the door is like my heart beat...

Any differences?
[2:18 AM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: in hearer hearing sound, hearer is one thing, hearing is one thing, sound is one thing.. but in total exertion, the ear, sound, sound consciousness, and all the conditions are factors are the hearing
[2:18 AM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: *and factors

[6:19 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: in anatta in hearing there is just sound, the ear, sound, sound consciousness are just delineations of the field of happening.. one can also see and have insight into dependent origination at the anatta level but not exactly like total exertion yet.. right after anatta i wrote my experience is more like spontaneous happening dependent on conditions but without agency or subject-object
[6:19 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: field of happening but without agent*
[6:24 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: so right after anatta, its like there is no hearer, only ear, sound and sound consciousness... the sound consciousness manifests spontaneously when ear meets sound. but there can still be true existence of ear, sound, sound consciousness as truly arising momentary dharmas
[6:24 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: even if there is no subject-object
[6:28 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: So in hearing, there is only sound, no hearer. This deconstructs hearer.

Ear, sound, sound consciousness is post anatta.

But now ear and sound is not deconstructed.
[6:28 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: yeah
[6:31 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: In total exertion, it is not only ear hears, the eyes, ears...whole body hears...ear is no ear, and eyes is no eyes, body is no body and mind is no mind...all r deconstructed into that sound...


“Wondrous! Marvelous!
The teachings of the insentient are inconceivable.
If you listen with the ears, you won't understand.
When you hear with the eyes, then you will know.” - Zen Master Dongshan

“When I talk about listening, I don’t mean just listening with the ear. Listening here includes the totality of perception—all senses open and alive, and still much more than that. The eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind are receptive, open, not controlled. A Zen saying describes it as “hearing with one’s eyes and seeing with one’s ears.” It refers to this wholeness of perception. The wholeness of being!
Another Zen saying demands: “Hear the bell before it rings!” Ah, it doesn’t make any sense rationally, does it? But there is a moment when that bell is ringing before you know it! You may never know it! Your entire being is ringing! There’s no division in that—everything is ringing.”” - Toni Packer, The Wonder of Presence, excerpt from Finding a New Way to Listen

“In ceremony there are forms and there are sounds, there is understanding and there is believing. In liturgy there is only intimacy. Haven't you heard the ancient master's teaching: Seeing forms with the whole body-and-mind, hearing sounds with the whole body-and-mind one understands them intimately. Intimate understanding is not like ordinary understanding. Ordinary understanding is seeing with the eye and hearing with the ear; intimacy is seeing with the ear and hearing with the eye. How do you see with the ear and hear with the eye? Let go of the eye, and the whole body-and-mind are nothing but the eye; let go of the ear, and the whole universe is nothing but the ear.” - Zen Master Dogen, Shobogenzo)

[6:33 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: ic.. yeah
[6:33 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Now when u look back all the deconstructions, it is just the sound that is heard. Only sound...but it was "hearer hearing sound"
"Ears, sound, sound consciousness"
It is connectedness of everything as this hearing...
[6:34 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: So look into ur experience, sees how the parts r divided by names and designations
[6:39 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Now where does causes and conditions step in? Is there any division and can u trace any division?
[7:05 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Cause and conditions step in when the parts, conditions and relations and designation step in
[7:05 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Therefore Cause and effect are interdefined
[7:06 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: There is no real division, only dependently designated relations
[7:40 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: So what does it mean that causes and conditions r empty? Also what is the purpose of deconstructing?
[7:55 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The conventional causes and conditions unfindable and dependent on the whole host of factors and relations.. purpose is to deconstruct the naive notion of real entities like real ears interacting with real sound producing real effects (inherent production).. in effect all relations are experienced as total exertion and empty clarity rather than truly existent causes and effects or what malcolm said as if eye is inherent agent of inherent forms etc
[7:57 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: If u don't use any Buddhist terms, what do u think is the purpose of deconstruction?
[8:08 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: to experience fully free of artificial fragmentation and solidification and holdings
[8:11 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Quite good but not good enough.  Solidification and holdings r not necessary.  They r means to an end to allow the mind to understand the cause of contrivance.  Feel how is post anatta like, how do u feel?
[9:07 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: non division, luminous, gapless, no distance... in the seen merely the seen is experienced as luminous and gapless. also another aspect is spontaneous.. i always talk about spontaneous happening, agentless, doerless, perceiverless.. and also dependent on conditions
[9:07 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: but not total exertion or emptiness yet
[9:08 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: no agent, nondual, luminosity, spontaneous and dependent on conditions

[11:58 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan:

[No Reifications of a Metaphysical God by John Tan
No Reifications of a Metaphysical God
by John Tan, Buddhist philosopher and practitioner.
See Awakening to Reality-blog.

”What is presence now? Everything... Taste saliva, smell, think, what is that? Snap of a finger, sing. All ordinary activity, zero effort therefore nothing attained. Yet is full accomplishment. In esoteric terms, eat God, taste God, see God, hear That is the first thing I told Mr. Jax few years back when he first messaged me If a mirror is there, this is not possible. If clarity isn't empty, this isn't possible. Not even slightest effort is needed. Do you feel it? Grabbing of my legs as if I am grabbing presence! Do you have this experience already? When there is no mirror, then entire existence is just lights-sounds-sensations as single presence. Presence is grabbing presence. The movement to grab legs is Presence.. the sensation of grabbing legs is Presence.. For me even typing or blinking my eyes. For fear that it is misunderstood, don't talk about it. Right understanding is no presence, for every single sense of knowingness is different. Otherwise Mr. Jax will say nonsense... lol. When there is a mirror, this is not possible. Think I wrote to Longchen (Sim Pern Chong) about 10 years ago.”

“After realization… Just eat God, breathe God, smell God and see God… Lastly be fully unestablished and liberate God.”

Soh Wei Yu: "Lest readers misinterpret that John is affirming a substantialist notion of a ‘God’, it should be noted that by the phase of Anatta realization, there is simply no more reifications or conceivings of a metaphysical ‘God’ or ‘Creator’ of any kind, and John was simply using the lingo of Mr. Jax to convey the complete absence of a background substratum of Presence and the total luminosity of Presencing-as-manifestation to Mr. Jax using his ‘esoteric lingo’. Even the word ‘Presence’ is not referring to some static entity here - ‘Presencing’ is perhaps a better term, for as James M. Corrigan wrote, “...Awareness is not something other than the “presencing” (i.e. naturing) of appearances. It is not a thing. It is not part of a thing. It is not an “aspect” of a process… is the process—not some aspect of it”]
[11:59 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Don't underestimate this.  An insight as important as anatta post the insight.

[10:32 AM, 6/17/2020] John Tan: Focus on this part.  It is very important, if u can Intuit the insight that lead to this, the rest is not important.  There r many intellectual obscurations and at times the mind is being block and just can't release itself.  Same insight but just can't apply it on different situation relating to different mental proliferation.  The Freedom and release from such an insight is not freedom from conceptuality but a freedom from seeing distinction thereby leading to a direct authentication.  Because it is such an important insight, I will write something for u maybe later.  Focus on it diligently.
Labels: Anatta, Dependent Origination | 

The Heart of the Transcendent Perfection of Wisdom

from the Words of the Buddha

In the language of India: Bhagavatī prajñāpāramitā hṛdaya
In the language of Tibet: Chomden dema sherab kyi parol tu chinpé nyingpo (bcom ldan 'das ma shes rab kyi pha rol tu phyin pa'i snying po)
In the English language: The Blessed Mother, the Heart of the Transcendent Perfection of Wisdom.

In a single segment.

Homage to the Bhagavatī Prajñāpāramitā!

Thus have I heard. At one time the Blessed One was dwelling in Rājgṛha at Vulture Peak mountain, together with a great community of monks and a great community of bodhisattvas.

At that time, the Blessed One entered an absorption on categories of phenomena called ‘perception of the profound’. At the same time, noble Avalokiteśvara, the bodhisattva and great being, beheld the practice of the profound perfection of wisdom, and saw that the five aggregates are empty of nature. Then, through the Buddha's power, venerable Śāriputra said to noble Avalokiteśvara, the bodhisattva and great being: “How should a child of noble family who wishes to practise the profound perfection of wisdom train?”

This is what he said, and the noble Avalokiteśvara, the bodhisattva and great being, replied to venerable Śāriputra as follows: “O Śāriputra, a son of noble family or daughter of noble family who wishes to practise the profound perfection of wisdom should regard things in this way: they should see the five aggregates to be empty of nature. Form is empty; emptiness is form. Emptiness is not other than form; form is not other than emptiness. In the same way, sensation, recognition, conditioning factors, and consciousness are emptiness. Therefore, Śāriputra, all dharmas are emptiness; they are without characteristics; they are unarisen and unceasing; they are not tainted and not untainted; they are not deficient and not complete. Therefore, Śāriputra, in emptiness, there is no form, no sensation, no recognition, no conditioning factors, no consciousness; no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no visible form, no sound, no odour, no taste, no texture and no mental objects; there is no eye element up to no mind element and as far as no mental consciousness element; there is no ignorance, no extinction of ignorance up to no old age and death, no extinction of old age and death. Likewise, there is no suffering, no origin, no cessation and no path, no wisdom, no attainment, and no non-attainment. Therefore, Śāriputra, since bodhisattvas have no attainment, they rely on and abide by the perfection of wisdom. Since their minds are unobscured, they have no fear. They completely transcend error and reach the ultimate nirvāṇa. All the buddhas throughout the three times fully awaken to unsurpassed, genuine and complete enlightenment by means of the perfection of wisdom. Therefore, the mantra of the perfection of wisdom—the mantra of great insight, the unsurpassed mantra, the mantra that equals the unequalled, the mantra that pacifies all suffering—is not false and should thus be understood as true. The mantra of the perfection of wisdom is proclaimed as follows:

[oṃ] gate gate pāragate pārasaṃgate bodhisvāhā.

Śāriputra, a bodhisattva and great being should train in the profound perfection of wisdom in this way.”

Thereupon, the Blessed One arose from that absorption and commended Avalokiteśvara, the bodhisattva and great being: “Excellent, excellent indeed, O son of noble family, that is how it is. That is just how it is. One should practise the profound perfection of wisdom just as you have taught and then even the tathāgatas will rejoice.”

When the Blessed One had said this, venerable Śāriputra, and noble Avalokiteśvara, the bodhisattva and great being, together with the whole assembly and the world of gods, human beings, asuras and gandharvas rejoiced and praised the speech of the Blessed One.

Thus concludes the Mahāyāna Sūtra of the Blessed Mother, the Heart of the Transcendent Perfection of Wisdom.

| Translated by Adam Pearcey, 2019.

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