Also see:

Great Resource of Buddha's Teachings
The Deathless in Buddhadharma?
What is Nirvana?






  • An Eternal Now


    Nibb�na is a negation. It means extinguishment. With the fruition of each of the four paths one knows the termination of the fetters which are eliminated by that path. This termination is nibb�na appropriate to that path. The Paṭisambhid�magga:

    How is it that the discernment of the termination of continuance in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment (parinibbÄ�na ñÄ�ṇa)?

    Through the stream-entry path he terminates identity view (sakk�yadiṭṭhi), doubt (vicikicch�), and mistaken adherence to rules and duty (sīlabbatapar�m�sa).... This discernment of the termination of continuance in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment....

    He causes the cessation of identity view, doubt, and mistaken adherence to rules and duty through the stream-entry path.


    And so on for the fetters which are terminated on the remaining three paths. The once-returner path terminates the gross fetters of desire for sensual pleasure (k�macchanda) and aversion (vy�p�da/by�p�da). The non-returner path terminates the secondary fetters of desire for sensual pleasure (k�macchanda) and aversion (vy�p�da/by�p�da). The arahant path terminates the fetters of passion for form [existence] (rūpar�ga), passion for formless [existence] (arūpar�ga), conceit (m�na), restlessness (uddhacca), and ignorance (avijj�).

    All the best,

    Geoff

    ...

    Firstly, nibb�na isn't a "state." Secondly, nibb�na is the cessation of passion, aggression, and delusion. For a learner it is the cessation of the fetters extinguished on each path. The waking states where "suddenly all sensations and six senses stop functioning" are (1) mundane perceptionless sam�dhis, and (2) cessation of apperception and feeling. Neither of these are supramundane and neither of these are synonymous with experiencing nibb�na.

    All the best,

    Geoff
    ....

    This type of blackout cessation is experienced by all sorts of yogis including those practicing non-Buddhist systems. Thus, it has nothing to do with the correct engagement of vipassan�. The cessation of unsatisfactoriness (dukkhanirodha) is the cessation of craving (taṇh�), not the cessation of phenomena. DN 22:
      And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

    What craving? Craving sensual pleasure (k�mataṇh�), craving existence (bhavataṇh�), and craving non-existence (vibhavataṇh�). The cessation of unsatisfactoriness is the cessation of very specific fetters pertaining to each of the four noble paths. There is no canonical support for your interpretation of nibb�na or saup�disesa nibb�nadh�tu (nibb�na element with fuel remaining).
    ....


    The suttas define and describe the goal in sufficient terms. The difficulty in this discussion relates to whether one accepts what the canon states about the fruition of the path, or alternatively, accepts much later commentarial interpretations of the "path-moment" and "fruition-moment" as re-interpreted by a few 20th century Burmese monks. Without sufficient common ground for discussion there isn't much possibility of meaningful dialogue.

    .........


    I was just paraphrasing the professor's own words. Karunadasa's The Dhamma Theory: Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma:

      What emerges from this Abhidhammic doctrine of dhammas is a critical realism, one which recognizes the distinctness of the world from the experiencing subject yet also distinguishes between those types of entities that truly exist independently of the cognitive act and those that owe their being to the act of cognition itself.

    He goes on to say that "a dhamma is a truly existent thing (sabh�vasiddha)." This is a completely realist view. And the inevitable consequence entailed by this realist view, wherein all conditioned dhammas are "truly existing things," is that path cognitions and fruition cognitions of each of the four paths and fruits must occur within an utterly void vacuum state cessation, which is considered to be the ultimately existent "unconditioned." This is described by Jack Kornfield:

      In Mahasi’s model, enlightenment—or at least stream-entry, the first taste of nirvana—comes in the form of a cessation of experience, arising out of the deepest state of concentration and attention, when the body and mind are dissolved, the experience of the ordinary senses ceases, and we rest in perfect equanimity. We open into that which is unconditioned, timeless, and liberating: nirvana.... But there are a lot of questions around this kind of moment. Sometimes it seems to have enormously transformative effects on people. Other times people have this moment of experience and aren’t really changed by it at all. Sometimes they’re not even sure what happened.

    This notion of path and fruition cognitions is not supported by the P�li canon. Moreover, there are now numerous people who've had such experiences sanctioned by "insight meditation" teachers, and who have gone on to proclaim to the world that arahants can still experience lust and the other defiled mental phenomena. Taking all of this into account there is no good reason whatsoever to accept this interpretation of path and fruition cognitions. Void vacuum state cessations are not an adequate nor reliable indication of stream entry or any of the other paths and fruitions.

    All the best,

    Geoff
  • SN 43 Asaá¹…khata Saṃyutta (1-44 combined & abridged):
      And what, monks, is the not-fabricated (asaá¹…khata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the not-fabricated.

      And what, monks, is the not-inclined (anata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the not-inclined.

      And what, monks, is the outflowless (an�sava)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the outflowless.

      And what, monks, is the truth (sacca)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the truth.

      And what, monks, is the farther shore (p�ra)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the farther shore.

      And what, monks, is the subtle (nipuṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the subtle.

      And what, monks, is the very hard to see (sududdasa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the very hard to see.

      And what, monks, is the unaging (ajajjara)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unaging.

      And what, monks, is the stable (dhuva)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the stable.

      And what, monks, is the undisintegrating (apalokita)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the undisintegrating.

      And what, monks, is the non-indicative (anidassana)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the non-indicative.

      And what, monks, is the unproliferated (nippapañca)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unproliferated.

      And what, monks, is the peaceful (santa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the peaceful.

      And what, monks, is the death-free (amata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the death-free.

      And what, monks, is the sublime (paṇīta)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the sublime.

      And what, monks, is the auspicious (siva)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the auspicious.

      And what, monks, is the secure (khema)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the secure.

      And what, monks, is the elimination of craving (taṇh�kkhaya)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the elimination of craving.

      And what, monks, is the wonderful (acchariya)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the wonderful.

      And what, monks, is the amazing (abbhuta)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the amazing.

      And what, monks, is the calamity-free (anītika)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the calamity-free.

      And what, monks, is the dhamma free of calamity (anītikadhamma)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the dhamma free of calamity.

      And what, monks, is extinguishment (nibb�na)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called extinguishment.

      And what, monks, is the unafflicted (aby�pajjha)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unafflicted.

      And what, monks, is dispassion (vir�ga)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called dispassion.

      And what, monks, is purity (suddhi)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called purity.

      And what, monks, is freedom (mutti)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called freedom.

      And what, monks, is the unadhesive (an�laya)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unadhesive.

      And what, monks, is the island (dīpa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the island.

      And what, monks, is the cave (leṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the cave.

      And what, monks, is the shelter (t�ṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the shelter.

      And what, monks, is the refuge (saraṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the refuge.

      And what, monks, is the destination (par�yana)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the destination.
  • An Eternal Now
    Geoff: As do I. When fellows like U Paṇ�ita and Kearney understand nibb�na to be a momentary blip of nothingness it's clear that the soteriological significance of nibb�na and the foundational structure of the four noble truths has been misunderstood by this community. It's little wonder then, when someone like Ingram comes along, who has trained in this same Mah�si tradition, and claims that the full realization of nibb�na doesn't result in the complete extingishment of lust and anger. Why is this not surprising? Because the soteriological significance of nibb�na and the foundation of the four noble truths has been forgotten by this community.
  • An Eternal Now
    Geoff:

    I was just paraphrasing the professor's own words. Karunadasa's The Dhamma Theory: Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma:
      What emerges from this Abhidhammic doctrine of dhammas is a critical realism, one which recognizes the distinctness of the world from the experiencing subject yet also distinguishes between those types of entities that truly exist independently of the cognitive act and those that owe their being to the act of cognition itself.

    He goes on to say that "a dhamma is a truly existent thing (sabh�vasiddha)." This is a completely realist view. And the inevitable consequence entailed by this realist view, wherein all conditioned dhammas are "truly existing things," is that path cognitions and fruition cognitions of each of the four paths and fruits must occur within an utterly void vacuum state cessation, which is considered to be the ultimately existent "unconditioned." This is described by Jack Kornfield:
      In Mahasi’s model, enlightenment—or at least stream-entry, the first taste of nirvana—comes in the form of a cessation of experience, arising out of the deepest state of concentration and attention, when the body and mind are dissolved, the experience of the ordinary senses ceases, and we rest in perfect equanimity. We open into that which is unconditioned, timeless, and liberating: nirvana.... But there are a lot of questions around this kind of moment. Sometimes it seems to have enormously transformative effects on people. Other times people have this moment of experience and aren’t really changed by it at all. Sometimes they’re not even sure what happened.

    This notion of path and fruition cognitions is not supported by the P�li canon. Moreover, there are now numerous people who've had such experiences sanctioned by "insight meditation" teachers, and who have gone on to proclaim to the world that arahants can still experience lust and the other defiled mental phenomena. Taking all of this into account there is no good reason whatsoever to accept this interpretation of path and fruition cognitions. Void vacuum state cessations are not an adequate nor reliable indication of stream entry or any of the other paths and fruitions.

    All the best,

    Geoff



    -----------------------


    Soh:
    The understanding of Nirvana in the different schools of Buddhism

    Just saw Geoff (nana/jnana) wrote a great informative post explaining the different understanding of Nirvana in the various Hinayana or Mahayana traditions of Buddhism:

    "For the Theravāda, nibbāna is an ultimately real dhamma (paramatthadhamma) and the only dhamma that is not conditioned (asaṅkhata). It is an object of supramundane cognition (lokuttaracitta) and is included in the mental phenomena sensory sphere (dhammāyatana) and the mental phenomena component (dhammadhātu). The four paths, four fruits, and nibbāna are classified as the unincluded level (apariyāpanna bhūmi), that is, not included in the sensual realm, the form realm, or the formless realm. According to the Visuddhimagga, nibbāna "has peace as its characteristic. Its function is not to die; or its function is to comfort. It is manifested as the signless; or it is manifested as non-diversification (nippapañca)."

    According to the Sarvāstivāda, nirvāṇa is an analytical cessation (pratisaṃkhyānirodha) that is a disjunction from impure dharmas that occurs through analysis (pratisaṃkhyāna), which is a specific type of discernment (prajñā). This analytical cessation is substantially existent (dravyasat) and ultimately exists (paramārthasat).

    For Sautrāntika commentators nirvāṇa as an analytical cessation (pratisaṃkhyānirodha) is a merely a conceptual designation (prajñapti) and doesn't refer to an entity or state that is substantially existent (dravyasat). It is a non-implicative negation (prasajyapratiṣedha), that is, a negation that doesn't imply the presence of some other entity. Therefore nirvāṇa simply refers to a cessation that is the termination of defilements that are abandoned by the correct practice of the noble path.

    According to the Yogācāra, for those on the bodhisattva path, nirvāṇa is non-abiding (apratiṣṭha nirvāṇa). The dependent nature (paratantrasvabhāva) is the basis (āśraya) of both defilement and purification. The all-basis consciousness (ālayavijñāna) is the defiled portion (saṃkleśabhāga) of the dependent nature. Purified suchness (viśuddhā tathatā) is the purified portion (vyavadānabhāga) of the dependent nature. Synonyms for purified suchness are the perfected nature (pariniṣpanna) and non-abiding nirvāṇa. Non-abiding nirvāṇa is the revolved basis (āśrayaparāvṛtti) that has eliminated defilements without abandoning saṃsāra.

    Madhyamaka authors accept the notion of non-abiding nirvāṇa, but they don't use the three natures model used by the Yogācāra. Rather, they simply consider all things to be conceptual designations (prajñapti) that are empty of nature (svabhāva). For them, conceptual designations are relative truth (saṃvṛtisatya) and only emptiness is ultimate truth (paramārthasatya).

    Zen, Pure Land, Vajrayāna, etc., are practice traditions more so than doctrinal schools, and authors writing from any of these perspectives would generally rely on Yogācāra or Madhyamaka śāstras or a specific Mahāyāna sūtra."

    Dmytro asked: "Hi Ñāṇa,

    And how you would put the Buddha's description of Nibbana in relation to said above?"

    Geoff replied: "Given the definition given in SN 38.1, SN 43.1-44, and Abhidhamma Vibhaṅga 184, I would say that it's a designation (paññatti, prajñapti) referring to the elimination of passion, aggression, and delusion. Or with regard to the four paths (stream-entry, etc.), a designation referring to the elimination of fetters terminated by each path. This is similar to the Sautrāntika interpretation."

    I concur. Sautrantika has the closest understanding of Nirvana to the original teachings of Buddha, which I shall elaborate in the comments section.
    Unlike ·  · Unfollow Post · March 6 at 2:39am near Brisbane, Queensland
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    You like this.

    Soh: Some weeks ago I also wrote something elsewhere:

    "Nagarjuna wrote in his seventy verses that rejected Nirvana as a true existence or as the annihilation of a real being or entity: #24.
    Opponent: If there is no origination and cessation, then to the cessation of what is nirvana due? Reply: Is not liberation this: that by nature nothing arises and ceases?
    .
    #25.
    If nirvana [resulted] from cessation, [then there would be] destruction. If the contrary, [there would be] permanence. Therefore it is not logical that nirvana is being or non-being."

    Not only does the Aṣṭasāhasrikāprajñapāramitā Sutra talk about Nirvana as illusory, the Samadhiraja Sutra also says 'The ultimate truth is like a dream; And nirvana is similarly like a dream. The wise take them that way And this is the supreme discipline of mind" and "When the bodhisattva addresses these things: The truth of cessation is like a dream, Nirvana also is essentially a dream; That is called the discipline of speech."

    Some Theravadins have a slightly eternalistic interpretation of Nibbana. In the past, the Sautrantika (which was even much more popular than Theravada until it died out in India along with the whole of Buddhism in general, leaving Theravada in other countries like Sri Lanka etc) which follows the Buddha's teachings or suttas more to the letter would strictly define nirvana in terms of cessation or elimination of fetters. Which is what the Buddha taught that Nirvana is. An eternalistic interpretation of Nirvana as some ultimately existing reality has no basis at all in the Pali canon/Buddha's words which clearly defined in so many instances that Nirvana, not-conditioned, not-born, death-free and so on are simply synonyms for the "elimination of passion, aggression and delusion". (reference: http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/447451)

    The analogy given by the Buddha on Nirvana is a fire going out - and Nirvana simply means cessation, termination, gone out, etc. And with cessation there is no remainder of any kind of being or existence, nor could it be understood in terms of non-being, both or neither.

    "Even in the Vedic period there was the dilemma between `be­ing' and `non-being'. They won­dered whether being came out of non-being, or non-being came out of being. Katham asataþ sat jàyeta, "How could being come out of non-being?"[23] In the face of this di­lemma regarding the first be­ginnings, they were some­times forced to conclude that there was neither non-being nor being at the start, nàsadàsãt no sadàsãt tadànãm.[24] Or else in the confusion they would sometimes leave the matter unsolved, say­ing that perhaps only the creator knew about it.

    All this shows what a lot of confusion these two words sat and asat, being and non-being, had created for the philosophers. It was only the Buddha who presented a perfect solution, after a complete reappraisal of the whole problem of existence. He pointed out that existence is a fire kept up by the fuel of grasp­ing, so much so that, when grasping ceases, existence ceases as well.

    In fact the fire simile holds the answer to the tetralemma in­cluded among the ten unexplained points very often found men­tioned in the suttas. It concerns the state of the Tathàgata after death, whether he exists, does not exist, both or neither. The presumption of the ques­tioner is that one or the other of these four must be and could be an­swered in the affirmative.

    The Buddha solves or dissolves this presumptuous tetra­lemma by bringing in the fire simile. He points out that when a fire goes out with the exhaustion of the fuel, it is absurd to ask in which direction the fire has gone. All that one can say about it, is that the fire has gone out: Nibbuto tveva saïkhaü gacchati, "it comes to be reckoned as `gone out'."[25]

    It is just a reckoning, an idiom, a worldly usage, which is not to be taken too literally. So this illustration through the fire sim­ile drives home to the worldling the absurdity of his presumptu­ous tetra­lemma of the Tathàgata.

    In the Upasãvasutta of the Pàràyaõavagga of the Sutta Nipàta we find the lines:

    Accã yathà vàtavegena khitto,

    atthaü paleti na upeti saïkhaü,

    "Like the flame thrown out by the force of the wind

    Reaches its end, it cannot be reckoned."[26]

    Here the reckoning is to be understood in terms of the four proposi­tions of the tetralemma. Such reckonings are based on a total mis­con­ception of the phe­nomenon of fire.

    It seems that the deeper connotations of the word Nibbàna in the context of pañicca samuppàda were not fully appreciated by the com­mentators. And that is why they went in search of a new etymol­ogy. They were too shy of the implications of the word `extinction'. Proba­bly to avoid the charge of nihilism they felt compelled to rein­terpret certain key passages on Nibbàna. They con­ceived Nibbàna as something existing out there in its own right. They would not say where, but sometimes they would even say that it is everywhere. With an undue grammatical em­phasis they would say that it is on coming to that Nibbàna that lust and other defilements are aban­doned: Nibbànaü àgamma ràgàdayo khãõàti ekameva nibbànaü ràgakkhayo dosakkhayo mohakkhayo ti vuccati.[27]

    But what do we find in the joyous utterances of the theras and therãs who had realized Nibbàna? As recorded in such texts as Thera- and Therã-gàthà they would say: Sãtibhåto'smi nibbuto, "I am grown cool, extinguished as I am."[28] The words sãtibhåta and nibbuta had a cooling effect even to the listener, though later scholars found them inadequate.

    Extinction is something that occurs within an individual and it brings with it a unique bliss of appeasement. As the Ratana­sutta says: Laddhà mudhà nibbutiü bhu¤jamànà, "they experi­ence the bliss of appeasement won free of charge."[29] Nor­mally, appeasement is won at a cost, but here we have an ap­peasement that comes gratis." ~ Venerable Nanananda, http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/nibbana01.htm"

    The Meaning of Nirvana - SgForums.com
    sgforums.com
    This type of blackout cessation is experienced by all sorts of yogis including those practicing non-Buddhist systems. Thus, it has nothing to do with the correct engagement of vipassanā. The cessation of unsatisfactoriness (dukkhanirodha) is the cessation of craving (taṇhā), not the cessation of phe...[Preview cut off]
    March 6 at 2:41am · Like · Remove Preview


    Soh: That being said, I do not see contradiction between Buddha's understanding of Nirvana and Yogacara's understanding of 'perfected suchness' (especially when we take into consideration the Buddha's teaching on suchness such as Kalaka Sutta). The notion of eliminating defilements yet not abandoning samsara is however a Mahayana development (which does not however contradict the Buddha's early teachings insofar as it does not present a substantialist understanding of Nirvana, especially for Madhyamika).
    March 6 at 2:49am · Edited · Like



    --------------------


    Hi Justin Struble we have to be very careful in interpreting that Nibbana sutta. First of all we have to understand what 'Nirvana/Nibbana' means in context. As Ven Hui-feng puts it, "keep in mind the basic metaphorical meaning of the term nirvana, the extinguishing of a flame". The main analogy given by Buddha for nirvana is the extinguishing of a flame. As Ven Nanananda also pointed out,

    "Regarding this concept of Nibbàna too, the worldling is generally tempted to entertain some kind of ma¤¤anà, or me-thinking. Even some philosophers are prone to that habit. They indulge in some sort of prolific conceptualisation and me-thinking on the basis of such conventional usages as `in Nib­bàna', `from Nibbàna', `on reaching Nibbàna' and `my Nib­bàna'. By hypostasizing Nibbàna they de­velop a substance view, even of this concept, just as in the case of pañhavi, or earth. Let us now try to determine whether this is justifi­able.

    The primary sense of the word Nibbàna is `extinction', or `extin­guishment'. We have already discussed this point with reference to such contexts as Aggivacchagottasutta.[8] In that dis­course the Bud­dha explained the term Nibbàna to the wan­dering ascetic Vaccha­got­ta with the help of a simile of the ex­tinction of a fire. Simply be­cause a fire is said to go out, one should not try to trace it, wondering where it has gone. The term Nibbàna is essentially a verbal noun. We also came across the phrase nibbuto tveva saïkhaü gacchati, "it is reck­oned as `extinguished'".[9]"

    Extinction of what? Extinction of passion, aggression and delusion driving the whole mass of samsara. Extinction of the the whole mass of suffering/samsara in the twelve links from ignorance up to old age, sickness and death.

    Next is the terms 'unconditioned/death-free/etc' it is very easy to reify this in terms of a metaphysical entity. This is not the case.

    Here are some quotations which should hopefully clarify:

    Nana/Geoff: "“Firstly, while the translation of asaṃskṛta as “the unconditioned” is fairly common, it’s a rather poor translation that all too easily leads to reification. The term asaṃskṛta refers to a negation of conditioned factors, and the meaning is better conveyed by “not-conditioned.” Secondly, for Sautrāntika commentators, and many mahāyānika commentators as well, an analytical cessation (pratisaṃkhyānirodha) is a non-implicative negation (prasajyapratiṣedha), i.e. a negation that doesn’t imply the presence of some other entity, and therefore nirvāṇa simply refers to a cessation that terminates the defilements and fetters that are abandoned by the correct practice of the noble path. It doesn’t refer to an entity or state that is substantially existent (dravyasat).” "

    Nana/Geoff: "One has to be careful with such descriptions which may seem to be pointing to some sort of truly existent "unconditioned ground." Nibbāna is the extinguishment of the mental outflows (āsavā). The liberated mind is measureless (appamāṇa). This is not a "state of oneness with all of existence." It's an absence of identification (anattatā). It's non-indicative (anidassana), unestablished (appatiṭṭha), and not-dependent (anissita). None of these adjectives entail any sort of metaphysical "ground of being" or "unconditioned absolute." They are all negations. An arahant has simply "gone out."

    tiltbillings: "There is no "deathless." That is a bad translation leading to an objectification/reification of the idea of awakening. With awakening, there is no more rebirth, one is free from death. (31 words.)""

    Loppon Namdrol/Malcolm: “When you have eradicated all afflictions which cause rebirth, this is all the deathlessness you need. No more birth, BAM! no more death.”

    Buddha: "And what, monks, is the not-fabricated (asaṅkhata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the not-fabricated. " .... "And what, monks, is the death-free (amata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the death-free." - SN 43 Asaṅkhata Saṃyutta - more in http://measurelessmind.ca/pariyosana.html

    I can provide many more quotations but this will suffice for now, I think. Nirvana is extinction, like the blowing out of a flame, it is simply and merely the end of suffering and afflictions and does not imply a metaphysical substantial existent as some may postulate. There is no "The Unconditioned" or "The Unborn" or "The Deathless" as some sort of metaphysical essence. There is an unconditioned dharma - analytical cessation (nirvana) - that is the end of birth and death (death-free), is not conditioned (by afflictive causes and manifestations) etc.

    All these are classic Nirvana stuff found in the earliest teachings in Pali suttas. In Mahayana emptiness, there is another understanding of "unconditioned" and that is as what Kyle said which I find to be very well said:

    "The unconditioned is the emptiness of the skandhas.

    Recognition of the emptiness of the skandhas means that the skandhas are non-arisen, what has not arisen cannot be conditioned."
  • "The basis should be understood to be in accordance with the following insight from Nāgārjuna:

    •    Since arising, abiding and perishing are not established,
    the conditioned is not established;
    since the conditioned is never established,
    how can the unconditioned be established?
    and,

    •    Outside of the saṃskṛtas [conditioned dharmas], there are no asaṃskṛta [unconditioned dharmas], and the true nature [bhūtalakṣaṇa] of the saṃskṛta is exactly asaṃskṛta. The saṃskṛtas being empty, etc. the asaṃskṛtas themselves are also empty, for the two things are not different. Besides, some people, hearing about the defects of the saṃskṛtadharmas, become attached [abhiniveśante] to the asaṃskṛtadharmas and, as a result of this attachment, develop fetters.
    The latter portion of the second quotation addresses your issue." - Kyle Dixon

    In any case, whether the classical nirvana understanding of the earliest text, or the emptiness understanding of unconditioned/non-arisen, there is no postulating of a truly existing metaphysical essence.



    For a more experiential description on what Nibbana is and the relation to the recognition of anatta (selflessness) do refer to the articles I pasted in Great Resource of Buddha's Teachings


    ---------------

    The Buddha said in Dhātuvibhanga Sutta: The Exposition of the Elements

    https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/middle-length-discourses-buddha/selections/middle-length-discourses-140-dhatuvibhanga-sutta

        28. “Formerly, when he was ignorant, he experienced covetousness, desire, and lust; now he has abandoned them, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, done away with them so that they are no longer subject to future arising. Formerly, when he was ignorant, he experienced anger, ill will, and hate; now he has abandoned them, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, done away with them so that they are no longer subject to future arising. Formerly, when he was ignorant, he experienced ignorance and delusion; now he has abandoned them, cut them off [246] at the root, made them like a palm stump, done away with them so that they are no longer subject to future arising. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing [this peace] possesses the supreme foundation of peace. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble peace, namely, the pacification of lust, hate, and delusion.
        29. “So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, should cultivate relinquishment, and should train for peace.’
        30. “‘The tides of conceiving do not sweep over one who stands upon these [foundations], and when the tides of conceiving no longer sweep over him he is called a sage at peace.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?
        31. “Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a conceiving. Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and is not agitated. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he be agitated?
        32. “So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The tides of conceiving do not sweep over one who stands upon these [foundations], and when the tides of conceiving no longer sweep over him he is called a sage at peace.’ Bhikkhu, bear in mind this brief exposition of the six elements.”




-----------------------

Updated, 01/07/2020


Adding some Mahayana perspective about Cessation/Nirvana and Arahantship based on the perspective of Thusness:

“Regarding arahant, John Tan thinks perfection of wisdom is not necessary, but dispassion and experience of cessation [of passion, aggression and delusion] are crucial:

 

John TanSaturday, November 1, 2014 at 6:58pm UTC+08

Perfection of wisdom is not necessary IMO.

John TanSaturday, November 1, 2014 at 6:59pm UTC+08

Dispassion and experience of cessation are crucial factors.

John TanSaturday, November 1, 2014 at 7:00pm UTC+08

That is why I thought of reading autonomy school of thoughts

 

...

 

John TanThursday, October 23, 2014 at 11:02pm UTC+08

Cessation imo is not just the ability to shut down consciousness ... It is consciousness coming to a complete rest due to dispassion...genuine calming down of the mind 贪嗔痴 (passion, aggression, delusion)...the fruition of a mind in total peace...

 

...

John TanTuesday, August 26, 2014 at 12:29am UTC+08

In later phase, you will prefer dispassion, letting go than concentration

John TanTuesday, August 26, 2014 at 12:30am UTC+08

You will find you know very little of how to let go despite strong attainment in concentration. Then you will revisit whatever you learnt and realized.

 

...

 

John TanSunday, July 13, 2014 at 9:59pm UTC+08

Dispassion will grow with time if you practice. When you experience the truth of 成住坏空 (formation, existence, destruction and emptiness) in life, together with your practice...dispassion will eventually arise.

 

...

John TanWednesday, January 28, 2015 at 12:08pm UTC+08

I don't think the Theravada teaching is abt that [annihilation]. In the lower tenet of the great exposition and sutra systems, they are very careful not to fall into the extremes of annihilation. When you get up the ladder be it yogacara, middle way up to Dzogchen and mahamudra, it is imo just a matter of refining the view of selflessness with direct experiential insights but still a sort of "middle path" from top to bottom...nvr a skewed towards the extreme of annihilation.

 

John TanWednesday, January 28, 2015 at 12:25pm UTC+08

Cessation is imp and once cessation is actualized, attachment to experiences of whatever samadhi is "cool down", so any form of promotion towards annihilation is unnecessary and extra (imo). Even shutting down of senses into an oblivious state is not exactly an extraordinary state, we enter in deep sleep every night anyway. The seeing through of any form of experience as dis-satisfactory that led to the direct taste of dispassion, dis-identification and atammayata should be the focus. Peace and liberation is directly related to this taste, so is the non-arisen of dharma. This is a state of evenness, calm and peace...and consciousness as well as senses can come to a shut down. Shutting down is not a secret or some exalted state for one that has gone through deep letting go in meditation but the cause that let one into it is. Anyway that is just my opinion.

 

...

 

John TanMonday, January 26, 2015 at 8:36am UTC+08

U must also understand a state of oblivion like deep sleep too is a landing ground, an escape into the cessation of experience. A movement from experience into non-experience and therefore it is driven by the same cause. It is not extinguishing the cause. The cessation is not to be understood as a shut down of senses and consciousness but disenchantment and dispassion that led to the ending of grasping. The mind no more chases anything and everything settles down, gone cool and is seen to be in a state of rest and peace.

John TanMonday, January 26, 2015 at 8:40am UTC+08

But it can and will lead to the shut down of senses and consciousness like deep sleep which is a natural consequent. So do not chase of the state of oblivion but the gradual extinguishing of grasping and into 寂静 (quiescence).

John TanMonday, January 26, 2015 at 8:45am UTC+08

This is no different from deep sleep...what is important is the cause that led a practitioner into that state...in any case if seen from the perspective of the cause, the shutting down of senses and consciousness become quite irrelevant and should not be presented that way.

 

...

 

John TanSunday, January 25, 2015 at 8:47am UTC+08

This is what must be tasted as an experience ... The experience of cessation...everything coming to a complete rest...relax and rest...relax and let go of whatever completely into cessation. Even to the extent of cessation of consciousness...be more nihilistic than nihilist… are you able to do that?

John TanSunday, January 25, 2015 at 8:53am UTC+08

Not as what Kenneth said as a "realization" but as a taste until the ending of that taste...everything comes to an end...it is like what you wrote the other time...Arahat happily waiting for death...terminating all passions...extinction...all your so called grand beauty of lsd experiences into extinction… are you able to do that?

Soh Wei YuSunday, January 25, 2015 at 9:22am UTC+08

Don’t think so yet..

John TanSunday, January 25, 2015 at 9:51am UTC+08

Should paste it in blog...it is a good realization of ...寂靜 (quiescence) is often overlooked and presence is often over-emphasized. As such even non-arising nature is understood analytically, it is not appropriately tasted. There are blissful experience but there is no peace and there is no liberation without . As for 万法无生,本自寂静 (all dharmas are non-arising, fundamentally quiescent) is a realization. To actualize it, we must be able to have some taste of 寂静 (quiescence) first then we can recognize it when insight dawn.

 

...

 

John TanSunday, November 16, 2014 at 9:10am UTC+08

Bliss of presence and bliss of cessation... both are related to the emptying of self/Self. After anatta the sense of self/Self is realized to be fabrication and the entire chain of afflictive D.O. [dependent origination] can come to a rest by seeing how stressful, dis-satisfying and suffering the chain is. That is right intention in the Noble Eightfold Path. Taste this afflictive D.O. coming to rest in relation to the need to maintain the Self/self or beingness. When the mind let go this way seeing the dis-satisfactoriness... it is by way of renunciation, dispassion, dis-identification… the freedom and bliss that come from Atammayata is the bliss of cessation (寂灭为乐), it is understood to be many times more blissful than any form of pleasure and beingness. However cutting the cause of suffering at root in Mahayana is about seeing the emptiness of self and phenomena. The bliss of cessation of the Theravadins are replaced by tasting the non-arising of phenomena therefore 观法如化,三昧常寂, 见闻觉知,本自圆寂。(contemplating all dharmas as illusory, [always in] samadhi-quiescence, seen-heard-cognized-sensed, are by nature completely quiescent [nirvana])” - Soh, 2020



More info in Traditional Buddhist Attainments: Arahantship and Buddhahood chapter in AtR Guide https://app.box.com/s/157eqgiosuw6xqvs00ibdkmc0r3mu8jg

 

 

.....

 

update - 20 march 2022

 




  • Soh Wei Yu
    About ayatana: "Āyatana often does refer to a “realm, plane or sphere”, but not always. For example at AN9:46, saññāvedayitanirodha, “the cessation of perception and feeling” (which is the cessation of the mind), is called an āyatana. Here the word āyatana simply seems to point to the fact that such cessation is possible. In this context āyatana cannot refer to a “realm”; rather it refers to the ending of all realms. Again, when Nibbāna is called an āyatana (which actually is very rare; the most celebrated occurrence being Ud 8:1), it is probably used in the same way as nirodhāyatana, and it is perhaps best translated as “the principle of extinguishment“." - dhammawheel
    Whatever epithets the Buddha use for Nibbana it is just a reference to a cessation of the kleshas, hence not contradictory to Nagarjuna's statement about nirvana and samsara.
    The Sautrāntika offer the best and most accurate interpretation of pali canon's nibbana:
    "For Sautrāntika commentators nirvāṇa as an analytical cessation (pratisaṃkhyānirodha) is a merely a conceptual designation (prajñapti) and doesn't refer to an entity or state that is substantially existent (dravyasat). It is a non-implicative negation (prasajyapratiṣedha), that is, a negation that doesn't imply the presence of some other entity. Therefore nirvāṇa simply refers to a cessation that is the termination of defilements that are abandoned by the correct practice of the noble path."


  • Ryan Burton
    Soh Wei Yu mmm this is good


  • Ryan Burton
    Soh Wei Yu Yes but from the Theravada standpoint the question is— is this later teaching here actually true? I personally agree with it but many Theravadins wouldn’t be convinced with the Lankavatara’s passage here.


  • Ryan Burton
    Soh Wei Yu For rate use of the word ayatana has also been used for example used when referring to the formless attainments but is that only in the commentaries?
    Could be true that Nibbana is simply the end of the defilements. I don’t know that to be truth in the same way I could say I understand the experiential truth of non-duality or Anatta.
    The same way that God could exist but I don’t know it’s non-existence to be an absolute. Imo it’s one thing to be open to possibilities and another to be possessing of a view that Nibbana is this or that definitively.
    Brahm, Pa-Auk, and Buddhadasa I mean most of the Theravada world I could think of refer to Nibbana as cessation of perception and feeling and that by emerging from nirdoha the effluents are destroyed. That’s laid out in the Anupada Sutta I’m sure as you know.
    I’m curious as to how you define it as a mundane experience when the Suttas refer to defilements vanishing upon emerging from nirdoha Samapatti?


  • Ryan Burton
    Soh Wei Yu where is that Mahayana Sutta that says Arhats emerge from Nirvana and re-enter Samsara after some 80 kalpas? Do you know what I’m taking about? I think it was the Lanka but I just word searched for that passage and couldn’t find it.


  • Ryan Burton
    Soh Wei Yu you refer to Cessations as Phase 3 in ATR correct? I think this is good point to note because I’ve known people who’ve had cessation or many cessations and are very much still experiencing duality and a separate sense of self.


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Geoff:
    Hi Zom,
    Even in the Visuddhimagga the cessation attainment (nirodhasamāpatti), a.k.a. the cessation of apperception and feeling (saññāvedayitanirodha), while nominally mentioned as similar to nibbāna in a couple of passages, nevertheless is not the same as nibbāna. Visuddhimagga 23.52:
    As to the question: Is the attainment of cessation formed or unformed, etc.? It is not classifiable as formed or unformed, mundane or supramundane. Why? Because it has no individual essence. But since it comes to be attained by one who attains it, it is therefore permissible to say that it is produced, not unproduced.
    It also can't be designated as the same as nibbāna because, as the Visuddhimagga points out, the cessation attainment requires mastery of the four formless attainments before it can be entered. Since there are arahants who haven't developed the formless attainments, they are incapable of attaining the cessation of apperception and feeling. Nevertheless, they are fully liberated through discernment.
    All the best,
    Geoff


  • Soh Wei Yu
    " No. The attainment of cessation of perception and feeling (saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpatti) is only attainable by non-returners and arahants, who are definitely ariyas. The non-ariya version is called a non-percipient attainment (asaññasamāpatti)."


  • Soh Wei Yu
    - Geoff


  • Soh Wei Yu
    " Hi Zom & all,
    All four main Nikāya-s define right concentration (sammāsamādhi) as the four jhāna-s (D ii 313, M iii 252, S v 10, A ii 25). AN 3.88 (A i 235) lists the four jhāna-s as the training of heightened mind (adhicittasikkhā). SN 48.10 (S v 198) lists the four jhāna-s as the faculty of concentration (samādhindriya) as practiced by a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka). AN 5. 14 (A iii 11) lists the four jhāna-s as the strength of concentration (samādhibala) as practiced by a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka). Moreover, SN 12.70 (S ii 121) and AN 4.87 (A ii 87) both state that there are arahants who don't have the formless attainments. And of 500 arahants mentioned in SN 8.7 (S i 191), only 60 are said to be liberated both ways (i.e. have mastery of the formless attainments).
    Also, in the Dhammasaṅgaṇi, where the distinction is made between mundane form sphere jhāna (rūpāvacarajjhāna) and formless sphere jhāna (arūpāvacarajjhāna) on the one hand, and supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna) needed for all four paths on the other hand, supramundane jhāna is defined exclusively as the four jhāna-s (or five by dividing the first jhāna into two).
    In none of these instances are the four formless attainments or the cessation attainment ever mentioned in the context of right concentration as a component of the noble eightfold path. Thus your equating nibbāna with the cessation of apperception and feeling is unsustainable, since it is entirely possible to realize nibbāna without ever experiencing the cessation attainment.
    All the best,
    Geoff"


  • Soh Wei Yu
    "God could exist "
    I have no doubts about dependent origination, anatta and emptiness. This goes beyond agnosticism about the existence and non-existence of various things, when such notions, including 'existence' and 'non-existence' are wiped out in the deep insight into the truth of anatta, D.O. and emptiness.


  • Soh Wei Yu
    All Geoff posts are recommended reading in Dhammawheel. https://www.dhammawheel.com/memberlist.php...
    Just as all Malcolm posts are recommended in Dharmawheel https://www.dharmawheel.net/memberlist.php...
    Also John Tan told me Astus is good but I haven't read many of them yet https://www.dharmawheel.net/memberlist.php...


  • Soh Wei Yu
    On being roused from cessation, that is from Lanka and other sutras:
    "Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:45 am
    Nirvana refers to the state of cessation. Cessation of what? one has to ask. Cessation of birth in samsara. By what is rebirth in samsara caused? It is caused by the afflictions that lead to karma, which in turn ripen as suffering.
    Arhats, pratyekabuddhas, bodhisattvas on the three pure stages, and buddhas are not subject to rebirth in samsara.Why? Because they have eliminated the afflictive obscuration.
    However, in order to attain full buddhahood, one must gather the two accumulations. Arhats and pratyekabuddhas do not gather the full two accumulations, and therefore, have obscurations to omniscience, and also do not bear the major and minor marks (bodhisattvas on the three pure stages also have obscurations to omniscience). Thus, according to the Lanka and other sūtras, they are roused from their samadhis of cessation, encouraged to complete their two accumulations and eliminate their two obscurations, beginning with the Mahāyāna path of accumulation. Even Arhats and pratyekabuddhas do not get a short cut to buddhahood. "


  • Soh Wei Yu
    " Nibbāna is the realization of the noble truth of the cessation of unsatisfactoriness (dukkhanirodha ariyasacca), which is not synonymous with nirodhasamāpatti. DN 22:
    And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving [for sensual pleasure, craving existence, craving non-existence].
    Your interpretation of the supramundane paths and fruitions is not supported by the Pāli Tipiṭaka. This has already been pointed out on this thread. Your interpretation of fruition attainment isn't supported by the Pāli Tipiṭaka either.
    All the best,
    Geoff"


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Also another issue is that most vipassana teachers do not teach the anatta insight. Which is sad. https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../vipassana...
    Vipassana Must Go With Luminous Manifestation
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Vipassana Must Go With Luminous Manifestation
    Vipassana Must Go With Luminous Manifestation

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........


2023 Update: 

More quotes from Geoff:

Ñāṇa (Nyana from Dhammawheel) wrote:
Nibbāna is not the same as the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling.

...

Not all arahants are liberated both ways. Arahants liberated through discernment do not attain the formless attainments, and therefore do not attain the cessation of perception and feeling. Nevertheless, they have realized nibbāna and are fully liberated.

...

According to the Theravāda commentators, it's possible for even commoners to enter into a non-percipient attainment (asaññasamāpatti) from the fourth jhāna, but such an attainment is not sammāsamādhi.

....

I mention it because non-percipient attainments don't terminate fetters. Therefore, there's no reason to equate a non-percipient attainment or the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling with nibbāna.


https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=128599&hilit=samapatti#p128599

Yes. Very important. The common thread running throughout the Pāḷi Tipiṭaka and Theravāda commentaries is that the goal, the destination, liberation is to be known and perceived. It is known and perceived by a conscious, fully aware mind accompanied by skillful affective qualities such as joy and pleasure, or equanimity.

....
There are other pathways to arahantship given in the suttas which don't involve attaining the cessation of perception and feeling. The Theravāda has never accepted that the cessation of perception and feeling is not-conditioned (asaṅkhata) because that would mean that there are two not-conditioned dhammas, and that a produced meditative state is not-conditioned, and that the cessation of perception and feeling would have the same liberating role as the supramundane paths and fruitions, and so on. This is a specific point of controversy in the Kathāvatthu, where all of these alternatives are rejected (see Points of Controversy, pp. 190-91).

In keeping with the Kathāvatthu, the Visuddhimagga maintains that the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling (a.k.a. nirodhasamāpatti), is neither supramundane nor not-conditioned (asaṅkhata). Visuddhimagga 23.52:

As to the question: Is the attainment of cessation formed or unformed, etc.? It is not classifiable as formed or unformed, mundane or supramundane. Why? Because it has no individual essence. But since it comes to be attained by one who attains it, it is therefore permissible to say that it is produced, not unproduced.
The arahant path and fruition can occur after emerging from the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling, provided that one is first able to attain the cessation of perception and feeling. When one emerges from the cessation attainment the mind inclines towards nibbāna. MN 44:

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, how many contacts make contact?"

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected."

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, to what does his mind lean, to what does it tend, to what does it incline?"

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, his mind leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion, inclines to seclusion."
Visuddhimagga 23.50 comments as follows:

Towards what does the mind of one who has emerged tend? It tends towards nibbāna. For this is said: 'When a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, friend Visakha, his consciousness inclines to seclusion, leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion.'

....


I haven't equated the two. According to Theravāda commentary, they are different attainments. A non-percipient attainment can be entered from a jhāna, the cessation of perception & feeling can be entered from the fourth formless attainment.

At any rate, there are a number of suttas which give a complete explanation of the path and awakening without ever mentioning the formless attainments or the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling. Moreover, even when the nine meditative attainments are given, such as the the sequence from AN 9.47 to AN 9.51, the cessation of perception & feeling isn't equated with nibbāna. The relevant phrase in this case being "and having seen with wisdom, his taints are utterly destroyed." This seeing with wisdom and elimination of āsavas occurs after one has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling.

.....
I would suggest that the notion of consciousness existing outside the realm of time is itself meaningless. Consciousness is designated according to the particular condition dependent upon which it arises. If there are no such conditions, there is no basis for designating the existence of any consciousness whatsoever. MN 38 Mahātaṇhāsankhaya Sutta:

Bhikkhus, consciousness is reckoned by the particular condition dependent upon which it arises. When consciousness arises dependent on the eye and forms, it is reckoned as eye-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the ear and sounds, it is reckoned as ear-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the nose and odors, it is reckoned as nose-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on tongue and flavors, it is reckoned as tongue-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on body and tangibles, it is reckoned as body consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the mind and mind-objects, it is reckoned as mind-consciousness.


It's stated in Visuddhimagga Chapter 23:

Herein, (i) What is the attainment of cessation? It is the non-occurrence of consciousness (citta) and its concomitants (cetasikā) owing to their progressive cessation.

(ii) Who attains it? (iii) Who do not attain it? No ordinary men, no stream-enterers or once-returners, and no non-returners and Arahants who are bare-insight workers attain it. But both non-returners and those with cankers destroyed (Arahants) who are obtainers of the eight attainments attain it.
The attainment of cessation (nirodhasamāpatti) is the same as the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling (saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpatti). It is only non-returners and arahants who can attain the eight attainments (the four jhānas plus the four formless attainments) who can properly engage in the cessation attainment. This chapter also differentiates between the fruition attainments of the noble paths (phalasamāpatti) and the cessation attainment (nirodhasamāpatti). It then goes on to say that the attainment of cessation is neither supramundane (lokuttara) nor not-fabricated (asaṅkhata).

All the best,

Geoff


Sent to someone,

"as for the question of how rebirth can take place without soul, this is a commonly asked question, I just posted this a week ago to Geovani:


Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Disjoint and unconnected in the sense that there is no underlying substratum and linking agent that is carried on or persisting from from moment to moment. It is not disjoint and unconnected in the sense of negating interdependencies.

Like if you have a sense that "last thought came, this thought arrived, next thought arriving, but I AM constant throughout, or the NOW is unmoved throughout" that is not being 'disjoint and unsupported'.

But even though they are disjoint and unsupported and groundless by nature, unproduced by any linking agent, one must further penetrate into the total exertion of that disjointed thought/sensation/experience. Then furthermore, one may see the karmic conditions in play (this is completely missed out by the neo-Advaitin circles):

As Thusness wrote before,

This arising thought and previous thought, are they same or different?
This arising thought and previous thought, are they dependent or completely independent?

Beyond the extremes, see the middle path of dependent origination.

...

penetrate deeply into the following aspects:
1. The amazing power of the spell of an arising thought
Clearly understand the power and implications of this arising thought. It is the mystery of all mysteries. When this arising thought sees dualistically and inherent, everything appears infinitely separated and apart. That is all that matters.

2. Look deeply into the cause of suffering as a result of dualistic and inherent thought rather than thought self liberates, penetrate the ‘cause and conditions’ of suffering.

When an arising thought see dualistically, how the entire experience is shaped.

When an arising thought sees inherently, how the entire experience has changed.

With this as the cause, what happens, with the absence of that, what happens.

3. There is no willing off of dualistic and inherent thought, that would be self-view. If there is no doership, is overcoming possible?

From this understand, an arising thought is not just an arising thought, but the total exertion and entire chain of conditionality is in action. Clearly understand the difference between self-view and principle of conditionality with direct experience. The overcoming is not by way of self-view approach but by understanding the principle of conditionality.)
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu As Thusness wrote in 2014: "If we continue to look for the carrying medium between 2 moment of thoughts, profound insight of anatta will not arise and non-locality will not dawn. Our mode of perception will be obscured by the inherent way of understanding things."

This also relates to many people asking the question of rebirth, since rebirth is taught by Buddha. In Hinduism the jivas (souls) are the medium which persists after death and reincarnates, until they are fully absorbed into and dissolved into Brahman through Self-Realization. But if in Buddhism there is no soul, no self/Self whatsoever, what is it that is reborn, if there is no 'carrying medium'?

Actually it's just action, tendencies, and the manifestation/reactions of these action (karma) and tendencies, both from moment to moment and life after life. It's no different from how rebirth is taking place moment by moment even in this lifetime.

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../emptiness-and...

Continuing consciousness after death is, in most religions, a matter of revealed truth. In Buddhism, the evidence comes from the contemplative experience of people who are certainly not ordinary but who are sufficiently numerous that what they say about it is worth taking seriously into account. Indeed, such testimonies begin with those of the Buddha himself.

Nevertheless, it’s important to understand that what’s called reincarnation in Buddhism has nothing to do with the transmigration of some ‘entity’ or other. It’s not a process of metempsychosis because there is no ‘soul’. As long as one thinks in terms of entities rather than function and continuity, it’s impossible to understand the Buddhist concept of rebirth. As it’s said, ‘There is no thread passing through the beads of the necklace of rebirths.’ Over successive rebirths, what is maintained is not the identity of a ‘person’, but the conditioning of a stream of consciousness.

Additionally, Buddhism speaks of successive states of existence; in other words, everything isn’t limited to just one lifetime. We’ve experienced other states of existence before our birth in this lifetime, and we’ll experience others after death. This, of course, leads to a fundamental question: is there a nonmaterial consciousness distinct from the body? It would be virtually impossible to talk about reincarnation without first examining the relationship between body and mind. Moreover, since Buddhism denies the existence of any self that could be seen as a separate entity capable of transmigrating from one existence to another by passing from one body to another, one might well wonder what it could be that links those successive states of existence together.

One could possibly understand it better by considering it as a continuum, a stream of consciousness that continues to flow without there being any fixed or autonomous entity running through it… Rather it could be likened to a river without a boat, or to a lamp flame that lights a second lamp, which in-turn lights a third lamp, and so on and so forth; the flame at the end of the process is neither the same flame as at the outset, nor a completely different one…
Manage
awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com
Emptiness and the Middle Way
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu In the //Milindapanha// the King asks Nagasena:

"What is it, Venerable Sir, that will be reborn?"

"A psycho-physical combination (//nama-rupa//), O King."

"But how, Venerable Sir? Is it the same psycho-physical

combination as this present one?"

"No, O King. But the present psycho-physical combination produces

kammically wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities, and

through such kamma a new psycho-physical combination will be

born."

Visuddhimagga// :

"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen."

Everywhere, in all the realms of existence, the noble disciple

sees only mental and corporeal phenomena kept going through the

concatenation of causes and effects. No producer of the

volitional act or kamma does he see apart from the kamma, no

recipient of the kamma-result apart from the result. And he is

well aware that wise men are using merely conventional language,

when, with regard to a kammical act, they speak of a doer, or

with regard to a kamma-result, they speak of the recipient of the

result.

No doer of the deeds is found,

No one who ever reaps their fruits;

Empty phenomena roll on:

This only is the correct view.

And while the deeds and their results

Roll on and on, conditioned all,

There is no first beginning found,

Just as it is with seed and tree. ...

No god, no Brahma, can be called

The maker of this wheel of life:

Empty phenomena roll on,

Dependent on conditions all.
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu There's a relevant post that Malcolm just wrote.

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=30102...

Seeker12 wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:54 am
Link Here : http://www.lotsawahouse.org/.../heart-dependent-origination

In verse 6, he says,

"Then, as for extremely subtle entities,
Those who regard them with nihilism,
Lacking precise and thorough knowledge,
Will not see the actuality of conditioned arising."

Can anyone explain this a bit? What is being referred to as extremely subtle entities that may be regarded with nihilism, lacking precise and thorough knowledge?

Thank you for input.

Malcolm wrote:

The extremely subtle existents are particles, paramanus.

A more precise translation would be:

Although the aggregates are serially connected,
the wise are to comprehend nothing transfers.
Someone, having conceived of annihilation,
even in extremely subtle existents,
is not wise,
and will never see the meaning of ‘arisen from conditions’.

The auto commentary states with respect to this:

Therein, the aggregates are the aggregates of matter, sensation, perception, formations and consciousness. Those, called ‘serially joined’, not having ceased, produce another produced from that cause; although not even the subtle particle of an existent has transmigrated from this world to the next.

The purpose of this is to point out that even though nothing transfers from this life to the next, the assertion that even a subtle particle is annihilated is false. Why? Because in Madhyamaka causes and effects are neither the same nor different.
Manage
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Question about Nagarjuna's Heart of Dependent…
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Verses on the Heart of Dependent Origination

by Ārya Nāgārjuna

In the language of India: pratītyasamutpāda hṛdaya kārikā

In the language of Tibet:
རྟེན་ཅིང་འབྲེལ་པར་འབྱུང་བའི་སྙིང་པོའི་ཚིག་ལེའུར་བྱས་པ།, (rten cing 'brel par 'byung ba'i snying po tshig le'ur byas pa)

Homage to Mañjuśrī, the Youthful!

These different links, twelve in number,
Which Buddha taught as dependent origination,
Can be summarized in three categories:
Mental afflictions, karma and suffering.

The first, eighth and ninth are afflictions,
The second and tenth are karma,
The remaining seven are suffering.
Thus the twelve links are grouped in three.

From the three the two originate,
And from the two the seven come,
From seven the three come once again—
Thus the wheel of existence turns and turns.

All beings consist of causes and effects,
In which there is no ‘sentient being’ at all.
From phenomena which are exclusively empty,
There arise only empty phenomena.
All things are devoid of any ‘I’ or ‘mine’.

Like a recitation, a candle, a mirror, a seal,
A magnifying glass, a seed, sourness, or a sound,
So also with the continuation of the aggregates—
The wise should know they are not transferred.

Then, as for extremely subtle entities,
Those who regard them with nihilism,
Lacking precise and thorough knowledge,
Will not see the actuality of conditioned arising.

In this, there is not a thing to be removed,
Nor the slightest thing to be added.
It is looking perfectly into reality itself,
And when reality is seen, complete liberation.

This concludes the verses on ‘The Heart of Dependent Origination’ composed by the teacher Ārya Nāgārjuna.

| Translated by Adam Pearcey, 2008.
.....

"The Mādhyamika therefore has to explain how we can account for an object changing and persisting through time without having to assume that there is some unchanging aspect of the object which underlies all change. Nāgārjuna claims that this can indeed be done. Understanding how this can be the case becomes particularly important in the context of the Buddhist conception of the self when the temporal continuity of persons has to be explained without reference to the concept of a persisting subjective core (ātman)."
Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka Pg 126 by Westerhoff



.........


Kyle Dixon recently posted:
There is no actual
self or entity in the mindstream, which is a continuum comprised of aggregated
and discrete causal instances that create the illusion of a consistent
consciousness. That mindstream is unceasing, and is present through many
lifetimes.
Regarding the
process of I-making in relation to rebirth, Ācārya Malcolm explains this point
well:
The Buddha taught rebirth without making recourse to a self that
undergoes rebirth.
There are a variety of ways of explaining this, but in essence,
the most profound way of understanding this is that the habit of I-making
appropriates a new series of aggregates at death, and so it goes on and on
until one eradicates the knowledge obscuration that creates this habit of
I-making. In the meantime, due to this habit of I-making, one continues to
accumulate affliction and karma which results in suffering for infinite
lifetimes, just as one has taken rebirth in samsara without a beginning.
But no soul-concept has been introduced in this thread, not at
all. The sentient being I was in a past life is not identical with me in this
life, even though I suffer and enjoy the results of the negative and positive
actions that sentient being and all the other sentient beings engaged in who
make up the serial chain of the continuum which I now enjoy. But when I die,
all trace of my identity will cease since my identification with my five
aggregates as "me" and "mine" is a delusion, and that
identity, self, soul, etc., exists merely as a convention and not as an
ultimate truth. When the habit of I-making that drives my continuum in samsara
takes a new series of aggregates in the next life, it is unlikely I will have
any memory of this lifetime, and my habit of I-making will generate a new
identity based on the cause and conditions it encounters in the next life.
[The] delusion of 'I' is an agent, capable acting and receiving
the results of action, even though it does not exist.
It is important to understand that this "I" generated
by the habit of I-making does not exist and is fundamentally a delusion. But it
is a useful delusion, just like the delusion of a car allows us to use one.
An analogy is using the last candle to light the next candle.
One cannot say that two flames are different, nor can one say they are
identical, but they do exist in a continuum, a discrete series.

.........

Soh Wei YuSaturday, December 21, 2013 at 3:39pm UTC+08

The shop is playing jing kong fa shi vcd
Soh Wei YuSaturday, December 21, 2013 at 3:39pm UTC+08

He talls about an unborn undying ling xing - spirit
Soh Wei YuSaturday, December 21, 2013 at 3:39pm UTC+08

That which reborns in six realms he says is not the body but the ling xing spirit
Soh Wei YuSaturday, December 21, 2013 at 3:39pm UTC+08

It is that which goes to pure land
Soh Wei YuSaturday, December 21, 2013 at 3:39pm UTC+08

Haha
John TanSunday, December 22, 2013 at 10:33am UTC+08

His view is more substantial view.
John TanSunday, December 22, 2013 at 10:36am UTC+08

Buddhism does not deny luminous clarity, in fact it is to have total, uncontrieved, direct non-referential of clarity in all moments...therefore no-self apart from manifestation.
John TanSunday, December 22, 2013 at 10:36am UTC+08

Otherwise one is only holding ghost images.
John TanSunday, December 22, 2013 at 10:39am UTC+08

So understanding a spirit traveling in the 6 realms is difference from recognizing these realms are nothing more than one's radiance clarity.
Soh Wei YuSunday, December 22, 2013 at 10:41am UTC+08

Yea
Soh Wei YuSunday, December 22, 2013 at 10:41am UTC+08

Told truth that before as well cos he asked
John TanSunday, December 22, 2013 at 10:56am UTC+08

Abt Jing Kong Fa Shi?
Soh Wei YuSunday, December 22, 2013 at 11:01am UTC+08

I see..
Soh Wei YuSunday, December 22, 2013 at 11:02am UTC+08

Yeah truth thinks jing kong fa shi is misleading people and is working for mara lol
John TanSunday, December 22, 2013 at 11:02am UTC+08

He was once a follower of Jing Kong right?
Soh Wei YuSunday, December 22, 2013 at 11:02am UTC+08

I told him jing kong is speaking from I AM persprctive and one mind. So he sees one god in all religion and he says brahman in Hindu is same as buddhism buddha nature
Soh Wei YuSunday, December 22, 2013 at 11:03am UTC+08

Dont think so
John TanSunday, December 22, 2013 at 11:03am UTC+08

Ic.
....
as to what happens after death, there's the interesting text called bardo thodol by padmasambhava in the tibetan buddhism and dzogchen tradition - a very good text that resonates much, and it talks about the stages of bardo/after life, where the first phase is the shutting of all senses and gross concepts are dissolved and one is being absorbed into the formless clear light, even for only a short moment. this is actually rather similar to the I AM experience. but one will usually fail to recognise its true nature, so that moment passes as a mere glimpse or experience without true recognition and the next phase of bardo begins. following that, one sees all kinds of visions. in each phase there is the possibility to liberate (and the teacher beside the dying will recite the bardo thodol verses in order to 'remind' or 'introduce' the dying/dead/transitioning to the nature of mind in whatever is appearing), by recognising whatever appears or is experienced as one's empty-radiance, in other words one instantly liberates on the spot the reification of 'self' and 'phenomena', 'subject' and 'object' by recognizing the empty and luminous nature of mind/display


also thusness wrote in 2008:

Hi Longchen,
Must be having a challenging time sustaining the vivid presence of non-dual experience.  Just to share with you some of my thoughts:
When we die, the thoughts and emotions that are karmically linked to the body are temporarily suspended.  The contrast in experience that resulted from the dissolution of the ‘bond of a body’ gives rise to a more vivid experience of Presence; although the experience of Presence is there, the insight into its non-dual essence and emptiness nature isn’t there.  This is similar to the experience of “I AM”.  Thoughts and emotions will continue to arise and subside with the bond of ‘I’ and ‘Mine’ after death. 
Awareness is always non-dual and all pervading; obscured but not lost.  In essence all manifestation, transient (emotions, thoughts or feelings) is really the manifold of Presence.  They have the same non-dual essence and empty nature.  All problems lie not at the manifestation level but at the fundamental level.  Deep in us we see things inherently and dualistically.  How the experience of Presence can be distorted with the ‘bond’ of dualistic and inherent seeing maybe loosely categorized as:
1. There is a mirror reflecting dust. (“I AM”)    
     Mirror bright is experienced but distorted.  Dualistic and Inherent seeing.
2. Dust is required for the mirror to see itself.
    Non-Dualistic but Inherent seeing.  (Beginning of non-dual insight)
3. Dust has always been the mirror ( The mirror here is seen as a whole)
   Non-Dualistic and non- inherent insight.
In 3, whatever comes and goes is the Rigpa itself.  There is no Rigpa other than that.  All along there is no dust really, only when a particular speck of dust claims that it is the purest and truest state then immediately all other arising which from beginning are self- mirroring become dust.

.....

Originally posted by longchen: (in 2008)
Hi Friend,
Just my understanding only. For discussion sake. Also, I find this topic very interesting.
What appears to us are registered by all the sense organs. The eye sight sees some thing, the ears hear something, etc ,etc. There are not happening in some place. They are the arising of certain conditions.
To illustrate that what we experience is not standardised, we know that human beings see in term of colour range. Some animals are colour-blind. so they see differently. But none of us, is seeing the truth nature directly. The senses of different species of sentient beings experience things differently.
Likewise, the 31 planes of existence are due to different conditions arising. In the jhana meditation, one is said to be able to access these planes of existence. This is because they are not specific locations. They are mental states. In the jhanas, our consciousness changes and 'aligned' more with these other states or planes of existence.
All the planes of existence are simultaneously manifesting, but because our senses are human-based conditioned arisings, we only see the human world and other beings that shared 'similar' resonating arising conditions. But nevertheless, the other planes of existences are not elsewhere in some other places.
What we think of as places are really just consciousness. .. no solidity whatsoever. Even our touch sense is just that. It gives an impression of feeling something 3D with textures and so on so forth. But there is no solid self-existing object there... it is simply the sensation that gives the impression of solidity.


Thusness:

Hi Longchen,
I can see the synchronization of emptiness view into your non-dual experiences --. Integrating view, practice and experience. This is the essence of our emptiness nature and right understanding of non-dual experience in Buddhism that is different from Advaita Vedanta teaching. This is also the understanding of why Everything is the One Reality incorporating causes, conditions and luminosity of our Empty nature as One and inseparable. Everything as the One Reality should never be understood from a dualistic/inherent standpoint.
This also explains the nature of 'supernatural power' like clairvoyance and seeing things far away, etc.
Indeed! You can see the how the view, practice and experience leading to the understanding of non-locality in terms of views, practices and experience.

Stage 6. The nature of Presence is Empty
Not only is there no ‘who’ in pristine awareness, there is no ‘where’ and ‘when’. This is its nature.
When there is this, that is.
With the arising of this, that arises.
When this is not, neither is that.
With the cessation of this, that ceases.
-- the principle of conditionality
The self-luminous awareness from beginning-less time has never been separated and cannot be separated from its conditions. They are not two -- This is, That is. Along with the conditions, Luminosity shines without a center and arises without a place. No where to be found. This is the emptiness nature of Presence.


Forum Topic: Will the soul leaves one when one meditate
Thusness: 20 May 2006 · 10:02 AM

From a conventional point of view, it is. If we feel, see, hear and think in terms of ‘entity’, then it seems that there is a ‘self’ leaving the body. This is because all along, we experience all phenomenon appearances as ‘solid things’ existing independently. Such conventional mode of comprehending our meditative experiences masked the true character of these experiences.

If we treat consciousness to be an atomic-like-particle residing in our body somewhere, then we are making it as a self too. Do not do that. The true character of Consciousness is not a thing, it does not enter, leave, reside within or outside the body. Clear Luminosity is bonded by karmic propensities, causes and conditions. There is no need for a place ‘within’. Yes, there is a ‘mental phenomenon’ arising but the sensation of ‘entering’ and ‘leaving’ is the result of associating it with a ‘self’. Just like it is illusionary to see a ‘self’ succeeding from moment to moment, an ‘entrance’ and ‘exit’ is equally illusionary.

Mystical experiences are extremely crucial during the journey of enlightenment. Do not discard them unwisely but assign them correct places. These experiences loosen karmic bonds that latent deep down in our consciousness where it is almost impossible to break through ordinary means. It is an essential condition for the awakening of penetrating insight. The main different between non Buddhist and Buddhist practitioners is that transcendental and mystical experiences are not molded into a ‘self’ but correctly understood and purified with the wisdom of emptiness. This applies true to the Luminous Clarity Knowingness that is non-dual, it is not wrongly personified into Brahman. In perfect clarity, there are no praises for radiance bright, only the Dharma is in sight. The wisdom of emptiness is so deep and profound that even if one has entered the realm of non-dual, he/she will still not be able to grasp its essence in full. This is the wisdom of the Blessed One. The second level of Presence.




---------------------------

Thusness: 06 July 2006 · 10:01 AM

Interesting site...

In most religions and mystical path, the dissolving of the 'Self' is necessary for the experience of the divine. The 'self' is always experienced as the ultimate block that prevents one from experiencing the transcendental. Glimpses of the beyond arise when we are able to go beyond labels and concepts.

I respect her experience but would just like to add some comments:

On the experience of “AMness”:
The key when the ‘I’ drops away lies in “fusing into everything”. Without this experience, it is still resting in “I AM”, there is no breakthrough. Even with the experience of “fusing into all things”, it remains as a stage having an entry and exit point. To experience pathless that is without entry and exit point is where the doctrine of anatta and emptiness steps in.

On the unchanging self:
quote:

It is strange that when people want to know their real self, they start looking at relative bunches of ever changing concepts. Reality is that which underlies relativity. Reality is unchanging.
We must ask ourselves: “What is the only unchanging reality of our life? What is the only phenomenon that has never changed since we were born?”
The answer can readily be experienced when we close our eyes and go introspective. It is our sense of BEING. Our I AM-ness. Everybody can always experience the sense that they exist. That inner sense never changes and is there if we are happy, angry, sad, drunk,- whatever. Further, it cannot be localized within any part of the body. It is limitless and experienced by everyone the same way. It is infinite REALITY!


When observing moment to moment changes, it is almost natural to conclude this way. There must be an unchanging observer observing change is a logical deduction. It is the result of the lightning flash changes, logical deduction and memories that create the impression of an unchanging entity. There is continuity, but continuity with an unchanging entity is not necessary.

On feeling lightness and experiencing ‘astral traveling’:
quote:

My own experience is that the density of the body seems to change. Years ago I experienced the phenomena of ‘astral traveling.’ During this experience you have the feeling of leaving the coarser body and floating. At some stage you have to return to the body, and the feeling is not very pleasant. You are going from a feeling of freedom and ‘lightness’ back into what feels like cold, dense, clay. This ‘clay’ is the collective emotions, experiences, and holding of the body. After some AMness has fallen away, the body feels lighter and less dense. You just keep feeling lighter and freer.


The “density” and “lightness” is the weight of “losing her identification with certain aspect of the self”. The power of this “identification” cannot be underestimated.
Next is her experience of ‘astral traveling’, if she is in a stage of absorption and then out of a sudden awareness, the eyes of awareness may allow her to witness something that is altogether different from the physical place but this does not necessary mean that ‘consciousness’ has left and re-enter the body. Consciousness is propelled by causes and conditions. According to her conditions of absorption and clarity, just IS.

But then everyone has their own experiences. Just my 2 cents.