Though the earlier anatta experience shifted to a "no center, no background" emptiness of no-self, there was still a sense of a doer. This current shift/experience has left the doer and the "agencylessness" seems the default view.
“[3:29 PM, 6/25/2020] John Tan: Thought of how to explain the difference in anatta and advaita nihilism.
[3:40 PM, 6/25/2020] John Tan: When a person in ignorance, why is he so blinded? If there is no I, shouldn't him be already free?
Sentient being: if there is no I in ignorance, then you are therefore free.
Anatta: There is no I in ignorance, you are precisely THAT ignorance, therefore fully and entirely blinded.
What anatta insight is telling us is the "I" and "ignorance" are the same phenomenon. This also tells us that even when in ignorant, there is complete and effortless non-dual experience, anatta is a seal.
[2:52 PM, 6/27/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The Beauty of Virtue
Thought is movement between “what is” and “what should be.” Thought is the time to cover that space, and as long as there is division between this and that psychologically, the movement is the time of thought. So thought is time as movement. Is there time as movement, as thought, when there is only observation of “what is”? That is, not observation as the observer and the observed, but only observation without the movement of going beyond “what is.” It is very important for the mind to understand this, because thought can create most marvelous images of what is sacred and holy, which all religions have done. All religions are based on thought. All religions are the organization of thought, in belief, in dogma, in rituals. So unless there is complete understanding of thought as time and movement, the mind cannot possibly go beyond itself.
We are trained, educated, drilled to change “what is” into “what should be,” the ideal, and that takes time. That whole movement of thought to cover the space between “what is” and “what should be” is the time to change “what is” into “what should be”—but the observer is the observed, therefore there is nothing to change, there is only “what is.” The observer doesn’t know what to do with “what is,” therefore he tries various methods to change “what is,” controls “what is,” tries to suppress “what is.” But the observer is the observed: the “what is” is the observer. Anger, jealousy, are also the observer; there isn’t jealousy separate from the observer—both are one. When there is no movement as thought in time to change “what is,” when thought perceives that there is no possibility of changing “what is,” then that which is—“what is”—ceases entirely, because the observer is the observed.
Go into this very deeply and you will see for yourself. It is really quite simple. If I dislike someone, the dislike is not different from the “me” or the “you.” The entity that dislikes is dislike itself; it is not separate. And when thought says, “I must get over my dislike,” then it is movement in time to get over that which actually is, which is created by thought. So the observer—the entity—and the thing called “dislike” are the same. Therefore there is complete immobility. It is not the immobility of being static, it is complete motionlessness and therefore complete silence. So time as movement, time as thought achieving a result, has come totally to an end, and therefore action is instantaneous. So the mind has laid the foundation and is free from disorder; and therefore there is the flowering and the beauty of virtue. In that foundation is the basis of relationship between you and another. In that relationship there is no activity of image; there is only relationship, not one image adjusting itself to the other image. There is only “what is” and not the changing of “what is.” The changing of “what is,” or transforming of “what is,” is the movement of thought in time.
When you have come to that point, the mind and the brain cells also become totally still. The brain which holds memories, experience, knowledge, can and must function in the field of the known. But now that mind, that brain, is free from the activity of time and thought. Then the mind is completely still. All this takes place without effort. All this must take place without any sense of discipline, control, which belong to disorder.
You know, what we are saying is totally different from what the gurus, the “masters,” the Zen philosophers say, because in this there is no authority, there is no following another. If you follow somebody, you are not only destroying yourself but also the other. A religious mind has no authority whatsoever. But it has intelligence and it applies that intelligence. In the world of action there is the authority of the scientist, the doctor, the man who teaches you how to drive, but otherwise there is no authority, there is no guru.
So, if you have gone as deeply as that, then the mind has established order in relationship, and understands the whole complex disorder of our daily lives. Out of the comprehension of that disorder, out of the awareness of it, in which there is no choice, comes the beauty of virtue, which is not cultivated, which is not brought about by thought. That virtue is love, order, and if the mind has established that with deep roots, it is immovable, unchangeable. And then you can inquire into the whole movement of time. Then the mind is completely still. There is no observer, there is no experiencer, there is no thinker.
There are various forms of sensory and extrasensory perception. Clairvoyance, healing, all kinds of things take place, but they are all secondary, and a mind that is really concerned with the discovery of what is truth, what is sacred, will never touch them.
The mind then is free to observe. Then there is that which man has sought through centuries, the unnameable, the timeless. And there is no verbal expression of it. The image that is created by thought completely and utterly ceases because there is no entity that wants to express it in words. Your mind can only discover it, or come upon it, when you have this strange thing called love, compassion, not only for your neighbor, but for the animals, the trees, for everything.
Then such a mind itself becomes sacred.
~ J Krishnamurti, 'This Light in Oneself: True Meditation'
[2:53 PM, 6/27/2020] Soh Wei Yu: reminds me of what you said 'you are the ignorance'
In 2013, Thusness said, "Anapanasati is good. After your insight [into anatta], master a form of technique that can bring you to that the state of anatta without going through a thought process." and on choiceless awareness Thusness further commented, "Nothing wrong with choice. Only problem is choice + awareness. It is that subtle thought, the thought that misapprehend (Soh: falsely imputes/fabricates) the additional "agent"."
“A state of freedom is always a natural state, that is a state of mind free from self/Self. You should familiarize yourself with the taste first. Like doing breathing meditation until there is no-self and left with the inhaling and exhaling... then understand what is meant by releasing.”
[10:40 PM, 7/2/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Nice talk by alan watts on net of indra and total exertion
[10:53 PM, 7/2/2020] John Tan: Yes very good... Like the success
[11:24 PM, 7/2/2020] John Tan: Because we r so used to seeing and understanding from a truly objective world excluding consciousness from the equation or a subsuming consciousness which is just the other end of the pole.
Similarly, we may think that we have to "get out" of conventionalities and be non-conceptual, non-dual, non-local and live in vivid vibrancy prior to separation.
We think that the conventional world and the non-dual, non-conceptual must b mutually exclusive.
What is the sound of one hand clapping in a fully and completely engaged conventional world?
When u move not a single step away from concepts and names, conventions and forms, what is that taste of one hand clapping like? Can u identify it?
[11:28 PM, 7/2/2020] John Tan: But that is not to tell u to keep engaging in conceptual thoughts...lol
[11:44 PM, 7/2/2020] John Tan: Sound makes ear, the ear and the ear makes sound, the sound. No sound, no ear. Neither prior nor after.
This u understand.
As I told you the insight trigger from "hearer hearing sound" and "ear, sound, ear-consciousness" are different. Also "ear, sound, ear-consciousness" imo is post anatta into phenomena and action.
[12:28 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. but ear sound ear consciousness is before deconstruction of ear and sound into total exertion right
[12:34 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Post anatta, you are left with sound. When you look at sound from "ear, sound, ear-consciousness" we are led to total exertion.
[12:38 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: But before you talk about total exertion let's look at fluxing...
Buddha named consciousness after its ayatanas. This is to prevent us from abstracting and reifying a pure self standing consciousness. In other words, consciousness is in a perpetual state of fluxing and if you where to slice a moment out of this stream of consciousness-ing, it is always one of the six types of consciousness -- eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness and mental-consciousness.
[12:40 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[12:41 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Now what is that ear-consciousness?
[12:42 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Cannot be spoken besides in relation to ear and sound.. it is just that sound in relation to ear, manifesting that sound consciousness
[12:51 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Yes. If I were to hit a bell with a stick and produce a "tingssss" sound...where and what is that "tingss"?
Is it in the stick, the bell, the air, the vibration of the air, the ear canal, the eardrum?
Also is that "tingss" produced? Is it caused?
[12:53 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: And if you take out a part of the conditions, is there still "tingss" at that moment?
[12:54 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: No
[12:55 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: It is relational but not produced or caused
[1:00 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: The conventional world is populated with discrete separated objects as the mind sees in bits and pieces and languages play a role in enforcing the hoax of separations.
We link these separated objects and say this causes that. We must see through all these symbols and names constructs and cause and effect issues, not just no-self.
[1:08 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: When you say no? are you able to see how and y it is "no"? Like choosing, without all its parts, is it still that choosing?
When you flip a coin, can you flip the head without flipping the tail? When you flip the head, you are at the same time flipping the tail. So can the tail choose not to be flipped?
When we say sensation, sensation is always the sensation of something. Can there b sensation without an object? And we say sensation is not free from that something?
[1:20 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. yeah.. nothing can be found besides those relations. Sensation of heat cannot be found to reside somewhere besides the exertion of hand grasping on the cup and the hot coffee, etc etc.. Therefore unproduced, not inherent production or cause and effect... If produced then it could exist apart from those relations. Choosing also cannot be found besides the relations which volition plays an important role.. volition etc too is dependently originating. It is not determinism which is a kind of fixed view of inherent production, just dependent origination
[1:27 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Choosing is dependent on choosable objects, the subjective mental factors which includes ignorance, afflictions, habits, or conversely wisdom, mindfulness, willpower, external influences, internal rational reasoning, etc etc.. all those factors exerting in the activity of choosing
[1:27 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: It is not exactly important how words are being replaced but what exactly is "uprooted" from the process of decosntruction. It must lift the veil of "production" and separation, entity and it's characteristics to understand the vivid vibrancy of that "tingss"...
So there can be a direct pointing that enables one to taste without intermediary beyond names and forms of that "tingsss", a non-dual, non-local or total exerted experience, but that does not mean the intellectual blindspot is uprooted.
There can also b clear understanding of intellectually but somehow the blindspot is not lifted and a second pointing into the taste of clarity is needed.
[1:30 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: So direct experience is one thing, clearly seeing through and uprooting of the blindspots is altogether another question.
[1:40 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[1:42 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: When I say soh is very successful, a damn good programmer. So when you look at "success" and see through this label, what did you see?
[1:43 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Just suddenly successful?🤣🤣🤣
[1:43 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: No.. years of gaining experience etc
[1:43 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Tell me more
[1:43 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Everything ...
[1:43 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Go into it...
[1:46 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: It includes learning from teachers, working with others, learning from failures and mistakes, continually refining knowledge and learning, and experience, hmm... actually cannot finish listing all the factors lol..
[1:47 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Yes...that includes coding ten of thousands of lines of codes, many sleepless nights, continual refining ones logic...etc
[1:48 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: All of these all is being exerted into soh as a good programmer here and now...
[1:49 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: So success is designated based on these conditions
[1:55 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: So soh that is here and now and the whole exertion, what is the difference?
[1:59 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: No difference
[2:10 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: No difference how come?
[2:13 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Here and now is just another designation... cannot be found besides the whole exertion of ten directions and three times.. just like consciousness is named and designated after conditions
[2:37 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Similarly, when you studying an object A, you will soon find that you are not just studying the object itself, you are at the same time studying it's environment, it's conditions...until the line between the thing you study and it's environment and conditions become a blur...until the boundaries and the divisions dissapears ... What can you realize from that?
[2:54 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: To study something is to study the relations and exertion of everything involved
Reminds me of dogen..
To study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of enlightenment remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.
Dogen
[3:14 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Also dependent designations.. everything is dependent designations
[3:43 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: The Soh that is here and now and the whole exertion are not two different phenomena. The splitting up creates the impression as if they can be separated. As if you can choose some part and still retain the same successful Soh at the moment. We also create a cause and effect relationship as if Soh that is here and now is a puppet that can't do anything.
Like the head and tail of a coin, they are two aspects of the same coin. The mind that sees the bits and pieces and the language creates an alienated experience and confusions.
All these deconstructions and uprooting of blindspots are to allow the full and total experience of the sound "tingss". Each moment is also the dynamic total participation of the entire situation of the three times.
So in the total exertion of that "tingss", there is no outside, no inside, therefore nothing to cause...no cause, no conditions, no self, no arising, no ceasing. Effortless, boundless, immense, vibrantly alive and free.