Link to Beacon of Certainty: https://www.amazon.com/Miphams-Beacon-Certainty-Illuminating-Perfection/dp/0861711572

[11:16 AM, 3/26/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Btw i told X its hard for Y to realise anatta, [snipped]
[11:20 AM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: I need to find a day to write abt mmk 2 truth model, the more I look at it the more beauty I see...lol
[11:21 AM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: It is fortunate that u have insight into anatta
[11:23 AM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: What u lack is a strong view to articulate the experiences and insights without falling into extremes.
[11:23 AM, 3/26/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[11:24 AM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: So far I can't find a teacher or books that can beautifully blend the whole thing together.  Mipham is the closest I can get.
[11:26 AM, 3/26/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. was actually planning to read mipham book during my reservist
[11:35 AM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: Read beacon of certainty, dialectics u need to have some background
[12:14 PM, 3/26/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Ok
[7:24 PM, 3/26/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Andre wrote:

This [in the link] is a good introduction and "meaning commentary" to the text. I'm intending to read Beacon's root text and commentary, I've just read the long introduction by Petitt.

Soh Wei Yu also consider reading Mipham's introduction to Shantarakshita's Adornment of the Middle Way. I'm always saying this, I think it's pretty good. There's a lot of overlapping between these 2 texts.

https://www.amazon.com/Journey-Certainty-Quintessence-Dzogchen-Exploration/dp/1614290091/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Journey+to+Certainty&qid=1616755380&sr=8-1
[7:34 PM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: Shantarashita adorenment is also good..and introduction to the middle way since u always like to talk about bhumis since the middle way is  also chandrakirti's commentary on the bhumis.  🤣

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“[9:36 AM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: In Mipham beacon of certainty, there is a section of verses using cow and horse analogy to illustrate this point of watermoon.  He used this to refute shentong view.

[9:17 PM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: The cow and horse is at the 84 page

[9:17 PM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: Refuting shentong I think

[9:17 PM, 4/12/2021] Soh Wei Yu: oic..

[9:18 PM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: However it is a clear indication of no mirror insight, only reflection.

[9:18 PM, 4/12/2021] Soh Wei Yu: oic.. u mean mipham described the no mirror insight there?

[9:19 PM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: Unless u understand the illustration.

[9:19 PM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: It's is watermoon analogy.”

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Soh:

Before reading Beacon of Certainty, one may also start with the shorter book which is also recommended by John Tan: Jamgon Mipham https://www.amazon.com/Jamgon-Mipam-His-Life-Teachings/dp/1590306694

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“Purity, primordial state, suchness

[5:11 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: Yes, whatever appears is naturally pure. However this purity is beyond verbalization, conceptualization and duality. Only when both self and phenomena are both exhausted then this primordial and natural state is self-evident.

[5:14 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[5:16 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: Our mind is terribly confused by linguistic constructs yet raw and dry non-conceptuality with no insights can't relinquish conceptualization. So how to go about it?

[5:16 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: I mean thorough exhaustion.

[5:16 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[5:17 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Some of the texts sounds like advaita unless understood as nature of mind or empty clarity

[5:17 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: Yeah also so.

[5:19 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: Translations always have this issue. Especially studying mmk with all the numerous explanations, translations and interpretations by scholars, masters and translators...lol

[5:20 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: But it does say it is free from extremes:

[5:20 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[5:22 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: So from practice perspective, I think just study one system and follow it's pedagogy, methodology and praxis otherwise it can be very confusing when studying the views of the various schools.

[5:24 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[5:25 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: These sounds like advaita unless clarified

[5:33 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[5:33 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: Yeah I never appreciate all these as the important step is to realize how conventional constructs confuse the thinking mind. Purity, primordial state, suchness before creation all are referring to freedom and exhaustion of these mental proliferations.

So without clear understanding of the conventional, it is pointless to talk about the ultimate.

[5:37 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..

[5:37 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: But seems like malcolm books and translations on dzogchen are quite clear and distinct from advaita view

[5:37 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: Yes.

[5:37 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Like buddhahood in this life carefully goes through all the false views of basis and refutes them

[5:38 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: U have gone through the whole book?

[5:38 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: I just bought Mipham on Buddha nature

[5:40 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: I will buy and focus on books by Mipham as it is really inline with anatta insights and some Malcolm translations which I find more accurate.”

“The beginning part about cause and effect is very important.  However 慧律法师 always only talk about highest teachings, not many will understand.  In Mipham "beacon of certainty" he spoke about "certainty" and this "certainty" comes from analysis, not simply from non-dual experiences and insights.  It is this step by step analytical certainty that brings about "cessation" of mind's proliferation -- analytical cessation.

For sutrayana I think 慧律法师 lacks these intermediate step by step analysis of the sutrayana.  The cessation of analysis into direct experience through insight is a different approach, much like the 2 stanzas of ATR.  Both are important.” – John Tan

Andre:

One may think that a laptop is empty because it *arose* dependent on conditions, but *now that it has arisen* it's actually 'here in front of us and is made of matter, it's black, it has a certain weight and it's square-shaped'.

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
Instead of "empty because it *arose* dependent on conditions", should also contemplate deeply the opposite : empty therefore dependent on conditions are possible.
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But we're told that the laptop is empty in the sense that it has *never arisen*. What could it mean?

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
When we use the term "non-arisen", we are talking about the traditional two truth model so we must look at both the ultimate and conventional nature.  In ultimate analysis the "laptop" is empty and non-arisen; conventionally the "laptop" arose and the only valid mode of arising is via causes and conditions.

We follow the view and its praxis until the nature of mind and phenomena is clearly understood analytically.  Until gnosis (prajna) is able to intuitive emptiness free from extremes/conceptualities/all elaborations.

Take note that the path of non affirmative negation is only part of the story and to Mipham without seeing coalescence of appearance  and emptiness, it is considered notional emptiness.  He  presents the 4 stages of Madhyamaka experiences as emptiness --> coalescence --> lack of elaborations --> equality.   

It is a gradual approach where the insight and experience of former phase will form the foundation for the next phase to arise until the non-conceptual gnosis of spontaneous presence is realized.

What lies after is the pure, unfabricated, uncontrieved view of spontaneous presence which is inexpressible since it is beyond all notions and elaborations.

I think these 4 phases r extremely helpful pointers for ATR ppl post anatta insight.  Before that, the nature of mind and phenomena is still unclear.  For u, the insights and experiences are there but the view is still very weak and needs lots of refinement.  This is not ur fault, me included (🤣) as we start from koan and contemplate on short stanzas.  However if u want to have firmed and stable progress, u got to keep refining Ur view.
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I don't fully understand non-arising yet, but I'd say it means that the laptop isn't actually solid or made of matter, even as it's resting right in front of us and we touch it. If it was actually made of matter, then it wouldn't be empty - it would have an intrinsic characteristic. But we're told in the Heart Sutra that 'form is emptiness'. So, form itself is devoid of nature, so it isn't truly form - it only appears so. And if the form element is empty, no object can possess it as an intrinsic characteristic.

Since mind and matter originates in dependence, investigated mind instead of matter. Emptiness without

Moreover, the laptop being material depends on being perceived by a non-material consciousness, so its materiality doesn't stand alone; it must be cognized externally as to be established - it's not self-established. The same with its being square or 'in front of us'. Likewise, consciousness does not stand alone - it requires the laptop so as to be able to 'arise as perception of laptop'.

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
One point to take note here is when Nagarjuna talked about dependency, it is not just nominal dependency but also existential dependency.  Like the comment I made on Andre previous post:-

This undeniable conviction of "in here" is real and "undeniably exist" WITHOUT conceptual constructs is the "inherentness" that must be deconstructed.  For without "externality", how does the sense of "internality" arise?  If they r dependent, how could they exist truly?

The seeing through of their dependent designations also renders the seeing through of their existence.
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That the laptop is square-shaped is a notion imputed onto the vivid clarity of experience. That it's black likewise; that it's out there too.

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
Vivid clarity isn't within the scope of mmk.  However Mipham has two models of two truth, one is the traditional madhyamaka 2 truth model and second is the authentic(non-dual non-inherent non-conceptual)/inauthentic experiential model.  Andre's previous poem of equating DO with spontaneous presence belongs more to the second model.
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I think the point is to empty all appearances of any notion that we might want to impute on them. Why? It reduces grasping and thus suffering. And, importantly, it opens the door to the transformation of experience. We're told that, in full enlightenment, experience sheds off its 'mortal skin' of ordinary body-mind and transforms into enlightened bodies and wisdom. That can't happen if experience is framed in confined structures of subject and object, mind and matter, limited and unlimited, space and time, etc. We can't wake up from a dream while still believing some aspects of it to be real, even if we've seen through the dream-character and some parts of the landscape.

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
Relating grasping and suffering to imputations is more than a matter of logical deduction.  

We can deduced by asking:
how does the mind grasp at all when conditioned existence r seen through?

How does mind grasp when it is free from all fabricated notions and elaborations?  

We may also conclude that in fact mind comes to a total cessation when it's free from all elaborations.

But from practice point of view (imo), we must be thoroughly convinced and taste through experience that each conceptual construct has a set of emotional weights associated with it.  Be it "self", "phenomena", "arising", "production", "existence" ...etc.  Some releases r as powerful as anatta and mind-body dropped, some r like putting down a heavy load and often accompanied by a light sense of joy.  This point was very well described and articulated by Aditya Prasad.
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"Don't try to bend the spoon, it's impossible. Instead, realize the truth. What truth? There is no spoon."

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
Tell Andre to eat his food with his "spoon"! 🤣
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Update:

Also relevant:

At the time of his enlightenment, Zen Master Huangpo said, "When I hear the sound of the bell ringing, there is no bell, and also no I, only ringing-sound."