Strongly Urge Yourself To Practice More Every Day and Do It!

 

    Soh Wei Yu

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    Zen Master Kusan Sunim

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    The reason why we delay practicing is because we always think that we have more time. When you wake up in the morning, you should always say to yourself, “I am still alive – I did not die. I should finish this great work. There is no tomorrow.”
    At night when you lie down to sleep, think about how much you practiced that day. If you spent more time thinking and sleeping than practice, then you should strongly urge yourself to practice more every day and do it!
    - Zen Master Man Gong

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    Dave Hermanson
    Practice... Meditation?

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    • Aaron Dorje
    If a person still believes in a solid, defined self or that ideologies have validity
    then with the consequences that inevitably follow
    (superiority/inferiority, arrogance and the rest),
    then yes - they 'NEED' to see through their DELUSION.
    (They are not obliged by the universe, but they are living based on falsehood and they and others WILL suffer.)

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    • Soh Wei Yu
    Dave Hermanson It depends on how meditation is practiced also. Some people practice meditation for their whole life without awakening. Best if one has a realized teacher who gives instruction, pointing out, and so on, and then one does not practice blindly, and this can save a person decades (or lifetimes) of being misled or going nowhere.
    Padmasambhava:
    27.
    Because of the unobstructed nature of the mind, there is a continuous arising of appearances.
    Like the waves and the waters of the ocean, which are not two (different things),
    Whatever arises is liberated into the natural state of the mind.
    However many different names are applied to it in this unceasing process of naming things,
    With respect to its real meaning, the mind (of the individual) does not exist other than as one.
    And, moreover, this singularity is without any foundation and devoid of any root.
    But, even though it is one, you cannot look for it in any particular direction.
    It cannot be seen as an entity located somewhere, because it is not created or made by anything.
    Nor can it be seen as just being empty, because there exists the transparent radiance of its own luminous clarity and awareness.
    Nor can it be seen as diversified, because emptiness and clarity are inseparable.
    Immediate self-awareness is clear and present.
    Even though activities exist, there is no awareness of an agent who is the actor.
    Even though they are without any inherent nature, experiences are actually experienced.
    If you practice in this way, then everything will be liberated.
    With respect to your own sense faculties, everything will be understood immediately without any intervening operations of the intellect.
    Just as is the case with the sesame seed being the cause of the oil and the milk being the cause of butter,
    But where the oil is not obtained without pressing and the butter is not obtained without churning,
    So all sentient beings, even though they possess the actual essence of Buddhahood,
    Will not realize Buddhahood without engaging in practice.
    If he practices, then even a cowherd can realize liberation.
    Even though he does not know the explanation, he can systematically establish himself in the experience of it.
    (For example) when one has had the experience of actually tasting sugar in one's own mouth,
    one does not need to have that taste explained by someone else.
    Not understanding this (intrinsic awareness), even Panditas can fall into error.
    Even though they are exceedingly learned and knowledgeable in explaining the nine vehicles,
    it will only be like spreading rumors of places, which they have not seen personally.
    And with respect to Buddhahood, they will not even approach it for a moment.
    If you understand (intrinsic awareness), all of your merits and sins will be liberated into their own condition.
    But if you do not understand it, any virtuous or vicious deeds that you commit
    will accumulate as karma leading to transmigration in heavenly rebirth or to rebirth in the evil destinies respectively.
    But if you understand this empty primal awareness, which is your own mind,
    the consequences of merit and of sin will never come to be realized,
    just as a spring cannot originate in the empty sky.
    In the state of emptiness itself, the object of merit or of sin is not even created.
    Therefore, your own manifest self-awareness comes to see everything nakedly.
    This self-liberation through seeing with naked awareness is of such great profundity,
    and, this being so; you should become intimately acquainted with self-awareness.
    Profoundly sealed!
    Self-Liberation through Seeing with Naked Awareness in English & Chinese
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Self-Liberation through Seeing with Naked Awareness in English & Chinese
    Self-Liberation through Seeing with Naked Awareness in English & Chinese
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    • Soh Wei Yu
    Advice for Beginners
    by Mipham Rinpoche
    Kyeho! All activities within saṃsāra are pointless and hollow—
    Unreliable and fleeting, like lightning's streaking dance,
    And there is no certainty as to when death will strike.
    Still, since death is certain, limit idle plans and speculations,
    Allow the teacher's instructions to hit home and strike a chord,
    And, single-pointedly, in solitude, seek perfect certainty of mind.
    Mind, which is like lightning, a breeze, or passing clouds,
    Is coloured by its various thoughts of everything under the sun,
    But when examined thoroughly is found to lack a basis or origin.
    Just like a mirage on the horizon, it is devoid of essential nature.
    While being empty, it appears; and while appearing, it is empty.
    Left to settle, naturally, by itself, mind arrives at a genuine state of ease,
    And, when familiarity grows stable, mind's natural condition is seen.
    If devotion to the teacher grows vast, blessings will enter and inspire the mind,
    And when accumulations are gathered and obscurations purified, realization will dawn—
    So take this practice to heart, carefully and with constant effort!
    When some beginners asked me for advice on practice, I, the one called Mipham, wrote this for their instruction. May virtue abound!
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      Jackson Peterson
      Soh Wei Yu no one has ever “awoken” because no entity has ever existed. Just like no one in your dream at night can wake up.
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      • Eduardo de Carvalho
      Jackson Peterson You want to alert, but they don't want to hear... 🌚
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      • Soh Wei Yu
        Eduardo de Carvalho Jax is both a nihilist and an eternalist.
        “-- There are some who show they are weary (or fatigued) about practicing something profound (like Dzogchen); they say that all phenomena are primordially liberated; they argue that they (themselves) are naturally liberated, and being carried away by these numerous reasons (or quotes), they do not practice (formally) and thus signs of success do not arise, nor (liberating) experiences. They say they are (already) Buddhas and don’t practice virtues; they are those who don’t give up vices. These are people (advocating) a nihilist view (chad par lta ba rnams).” - Dampa Deshek an early Nyingma master of Sems-sde | The General Outline of the Great Perfection, rDzogs chen spyi chings, p. 718-719
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        • 11h

        • Soh Wei Yu
        It is unfortunate that you people hold such false views that causes one to abandon any chance of liberation.
        "Some say: 'Cause and effect, compassion and merits are the dharma for ordinary people, and it will not lead to enlightenment. O great yogis! You should meditate upon the ultimate meaning, effortless as space.'
        These kinds of statements are the views of the utmost nihilism, they have entered the path of the most inferior. It is astonishing to expect the result while abandoning the cause."
        - Dzogchen master Longchenpa
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        • Soh Wei Yu
        Longchenpa on Nihilism
        From Finding Rest in the Nature of Mind.
        Those who scorn the law of karmic cause and fruit
        Are students of the nihilist view outside the Dharma.
        They rely on the thought that all is void;
        They fall in the extreme of nothingness
        And go from higher to lower states.
        They have embarked on an evil path
        And from the evil destinies will have no freedom,
        Casting happy states of being far away.
        ”The law of karmic cause and fruit,
        Compassion and the gathering of merit -
        All this is but provisional teaching fit for children:
        Enlightenment will not be gained thereby.
        Great yogis should remain without intentional action.
        They should meditate upon reality that is like space.
        Such is the definitive instruction.”
        The view of those who speak like this
        Of all views is the most nihilist:
        They have embraced the lowest of all paths.
        How strange is this!
        They want a fruit but have annulled its cause.
        If reality is but a space-like void,
        What need is there to meditate?
        And if it is not so, then even if one meditates
        Such efforts are to no avail.
        If meditation on mere voidness leads to liberation,
        Even those with minds completely blank
        Attain enlightenment!
        But since those people have asserted meditation,
        Cause and its result they thus establish!
        Throw far away such faulty paths as these!
        The true, authentic path asserts
        The arising in dependence of both cause and fruit,
        The natural union of skillful means and wisdom.
        Through the causality of nonexistent but appearing acts,
        Through meditation on the nonexistent but appearing path,
        The fruit is gained, appearing and yet nonexistent;
        And for the sake of nonexistent but appearing beings,
        Enlightened acts, appearing and yet nonexistent, manifest.
        Such is pure causality’s profound interdependence.
        This is the essential pith
        Of all the Sutra texts whose meaning is definitive
        And indeed of all the tantras.
        Through the joining of the two accumulations,
        The generation and completion stages,
        Perfect buddhahood is swiftly gained.
        Thus all the causal processes
        Whereby samsara is contrived should be abandoned,
        And all acts that are the cause of liberation
        Should be earnestly performed.
        High position in samsara
        And the final excellence of buddhahood
        Will speedily be gained.
        - Finding Rest in the Nature of Mind (vol 1)
        --------------------
        Also by Longchenpa:
        "To reject practice by saying, ‘it is conceptual!’ is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided.”
        — Longchenpa
        Din Robinson
        "It is astonishing to expect the result while abandoning the cause."
        Isn't the cause always grasping (from the point of view of the separate self... of someone who exists in time and space and needs to know in order to navigate this existence) ?
        Soh Wei Yu
        Din Robinson The cause is referring to the two accumulations of merit and wisdom.
        Longchenpa:
        “The Fifteenth Word of Advice
        Proffering mindless talk on emptiness and disregarding cause and effect,
        You may think that non-action is the ultimate point of the Teaching;
        Yet to abandon the two accumulations will destroy the good fortune of spiritual practice.
        Integrate them both! This is my advice from the heart.”
        Padmasambhava:
        “Just as is the case with the sesame seed being the cause of the oil and the milk being the cause of butter,
        But where the oil is not obtained without pressing and the butter is not obtained without churning,
        So all sentient beings, even though they possess the actual essence of Buddhahood,
        Will not realize Buddhahood without engaging in practice.
        If he practices, then even a cowherd can realize liberation.
        Even though he does not know the explanation, he can systematically establish himself in the experience of it.
        (For example) when one has had the experience of actually tasting sugar in one's own mouth,
        one does not need to have that taste explained by someone else.” - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../self-liberation...
        Awakening to Reality
        AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
        Awakening to Reality
        Awakening to Reality

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        • Eduardo de Carvalho
        Soh Wei Yu Well... This doesn't look like Semde teaching, but it's okay! 🤠

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        • Soh Wei Yu
        You don't understand Semde.
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        • Eduardo de Carvalho
        Soh Wei Yu "Free of all convention, the adept may act like a mad elephant."
        Vyākhyātantra: Total Illumination of the Bindu

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        • Soh Wei Yu
        That's not the important point.
        If one's view is clear and not verbal, one is able to overcome mental afflictions just by sustaining rigpa. If one finds that one comes under the control of afflictions, then one is far from liberation or Buddhahood.
        With rigpa (knowledge of one's nature) as basis, one's actions are free from being born out of uncontrolled mental afflictions (all the passion, aggression and delusion), I-making or mine-making and all the associated graspings. All these without the need to follow arbitrary rules and conventions.
        “Mr. JK said: What you're describing is the duality found in Christianity. saying we are impure and must better ourselves.
        Kyle Dixon replied: Not at all, this is literally the teaching of Dzogchen, Śrī Siṃha one of the original Dzogchen masters, who was Padmasambhava’s guru, states:
        This is acceptable since a so called “primordial buddhahood” is not asserted. Full awakening is not possible without being free of the five afflictions... It is not possible for wisdom to increase without giving up afflictions. Wisdom will not arise without purifying afflictions. (Bolded and emphasized by Soh)
        Likewise, Khenpo Ngachung, one of the greatest luminaries of recent times states:
        In any system of sutra or tantra, without gathering the accumulations and purifying obscurations, Buddhahood can never be attained. Though the system of gathering accumulations and purifying obscurations is different, in this respect [dzogchen] is the same.
        Longchenpa states:
        All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence (ngo bo) of mind is purified, samsara is purified... The essence of mind is an obscuration to be given up. The essence of vidyā is pristine consciousness (ye shes) to be attained... That being so, it is very important to differentiate mind and pristine consciousness because all meditation is just that: all methods of purifying vāyu and vidyā are that; and in the end at the time of liberation, vidyā is purified of all obscurations because it is purified of the mind.
        Even Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, Mingyur Rinpoche’s father, states:
        Purification happens through training on the path. We have strayed from the basis and become sentient beings. To free the basis from what obscures it, we have to train. Right now, we are on the path and have not yet attained the result. When we are freed from obscuration, then the result - dharmakāya - appears... the qualities of the result are contained in the state of the basis; yet, they are not evident or manifest. That is the difference between the basis and the result. At the time of the path, if we do not apply effort, the result will not appear.
        Thus there is still much for you to understand about how Dzogchen actually works. You are only speaking of the side of the nature, the state of Dzogchen, but the side of appearances, the side of the practitioner, is not pure and perfect just yet. The two sides meet when the practitioner recognizes that nature, which is not presently known, and trains in the method and view.
        5” – Kyle Dixon, 2021, krodha (u/krodha) - Reddit
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        • Soh Wei Yu
        “There are three traditional methods of dealing with emotions: abandoning them, transforming them, and recognizing their nature. All three levels of Buddhist teaching, all three yanas, describe how to deal with disturbing emotions. It is never taught, on any level, that one can be an enlightened buddha while remaining involved in disturbing emotions - never. Each level deals with emotions differently.
        …
        Just like darkness cannot remain when the sun rises, none of the disturbing emotions can endure within the recognition of mind nature. That is the moment of realizing original wakefulness, and it is the same for each of the five poisons.
        …
        In any of the five disturbing emotions, we do not have to transmute the emotion into empty cognizance. The nature of the emotion already is this indivisible empty cognizance.” - Vajra Speech, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche
        “Why would you accept afflictive emotions? They are afflictive and are the root cause of suffering.
        Either you renounce them, transform them or self-liberate them. But you certainly don't accept them. That way just leads to further rebirth in samsara.
        M” – Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith
        “We do bad things, non-virtuous things, because we are afflicted. Afflictions are never a part of oneself but they do define us as sentient beings. If you want to stop being a sentient being and start being an awakening being you have to deal with your afflictions via one of three paths I mentioned.
        Why am I a sentient being and not a Buddha? Because I am subject to afflictions. How do I become a Buddha? By overcoming afflictions and attaining omniscience. How do I begin? By setting out on one of the three paths, depending on my capacity.” – Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith
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        • Eduardo de Carvalho
        Soh Wei Yu Just Semde examples:
        "The views of the auditors (shravakas) the hermits (pratyekabuddhas) the bodhisattvas, the adepts of three lower tantras (carya, kriya and yoga tantra), and adepts of the creative and fulfillment phases of atiyoga, all retain concrete reference points due to biased interpretation of the two truths—absolute and relative. Since those views indicate minds still caught in dualistic traps, their views do not facilitate recognition of self-sprung awareness, and, therefore, are mistaken, perverse views. Corrupting and deviating from reality, those views are the wishful thinking of desirous minds."
        Vyākhyātantra: Total Illumination of the Bindu

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        • Soh Wei Yu
        That's really irrelevant to whatever I said above.
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        • Eduardo de Carvalho
        Soh Wei Yu Anyone who reads the Semde Tantras
        will notice that they are the expression of the highest Dzogchen teachings.
        But really few are the vessels ready for such high teachings. 🙃

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        • Jackson Peterson
        Soh Wei Yu Semde view:
        Longchenpa clarifies the Dzogchen view:
        "Because Awareness (Rigpa) has no finite essence, and because suchness and deliberate activity are mutually exclusive, and because Awareness is already timelessly and spontaneously present, nothing need be done concerning levels of realization on which to train, spiritual paths to traverse, mandalas to visualize, empowerments to be bestowed, paths to cultivate in meditation, samaya to uphold, enlightened activities to accomplish, and so forth. This is because there is no need to accomplish anew what is already timelessly and spontaneously accomplished. If there were such need, it would be inappropriate to use the conventional designation "spontaneously present and uncompounded." And it would follow that dharmakaya was subject to destruction, because it would be compounded, and this because it would be created by causes and conditions." (practices etc.) Longchenpa, Choying Dzod, A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission, page 120, first paragraph. Padma Publications.
        Page 190: first main paragraph:
        Longchenpa writes: "Since all phenomena are timelessly free, nothing need be done to free them anew through realization."
        Next paragraph: "
        “Even the thought that freedom comes about through “direct introduction” is deluded. One strives to free this essence from whatever binds it, but nothing need be done to free it, for unobstructed Awareness, which has never existed as anything whatsoever, does not entail any duality of something to be realized and someone to realize it. There is equalness because nothing is improved by realization or worsened by it's absence, so there is no need for any adventitious realization. And because there never has existed anything to realize- for the ultimate nature of phenomena is beyond ordinary consciousness- to speak of realization on even the relative level is nothing but deluded. What can be shown at this point is the transcendence of view and meditation, in which nothing need be done regarding realization, nothing need be “directly introduced”, and no state of meditation need be cultivated. So there is the expression 'it is irrelevant whether or not one has realization'."
        Longchenpa:
        All is Perfect!
        "Perfection in awakened mind” refers to the fact that all phenomena— all appearances and possibilities—regardless of’ how they manifest, whether perceived as pure or impure, are fundamentally subsumed within the scope of naturally occurring timeless awareness, arise within that scope, and abide within that scope. The situation is similar to the way in which a person’s state of sleep, and the various dream images that manifest therein, are subsumed with in the scope of that person’s awareness, arise within that scope, and are dependent on that scope. And so there is perfection in mind itself, awakened mind."
        Longchenpa discusses whether some may need to do practices if they haven’t realized rigpa awareness:
        "They may ask whether, even so, we still need to do these things (practices), because we have not yet reached that level?”
        “This is our reply: Kye, unfortunate ones! Going from one place to another does not exist. Since there is no going, there is no reaching. What you are doing is ludicrous! It is like trying to go somewhere else than where you are in order to look for yourselves. According to our scriptures, people like you have only superficial understanding, and the way you live is a disgrace! "
        Longchenpa:
        "Awareness abides as the aspect which is aware under any and all circumstances, and so occurs naturally, without transition or change."
        1

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        • 10h

        • Jackson Peterson
        Longchenpa clarifies the Dzogchen view:
        "Because Awareness (Rigpa) has no finite essence, and because suchness and deliberate activity are mutually exclusive, and because Awareness is already timelessly and spontaneously present, nothing need be done concerning levels of realization on which to train, spiritual paths to traverse, mandalas to visualize, empowerments to be bestowed, paths to cultivate in meditation, samaya to uphold, enlightened activities to accomplish, and so forth. This is because there is no need to accomplish anew what is already timelessly and spontaneously accomplished. If there were such need, it would be inappropriate to use the conventional designation "spontaneously present and uncompounded." And it would follow that dharmakaya was subject to destruction, because it would be compounded, and this because it would be created by causes and conditions." (practices etc.) Longchenpa, Choying Dzod, A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission, page 120, first paragraph. Padma Publications.
        Page 190: first main paragraph:
        Longchenpa writes: "Since all phenomena are timelessly free, nothing need be done to free them anew through realization."
        Next paragraph: "
        “Even the thought that freedom comes about through “direct introduction” is deluded. One strives to free this essence from whatever binds it, but nothing need be done to free it, for unobstructed Awareness, which has never existed as anything whatsoever, does not entail any duality of something to be realized and someone to realize it. There is equalness because nothing is improved by realization or worsened by it's absence, so there is no need for any adventitious realization. And because there never has existed anything to realize- for the ultimate nature of phenomena is beyond ordinary consciousness- to speak of realization on even the relative level is nothing but deluded. What can be shown at this point is the transcendence of view and meditation, in which nothing need be done regarding realization, nothing need be “directly introduced”, and no state of meditation need be cultivated. So there is the expression 'it is irrelevant whether or not one has realization'."
        Longchenpa:
        All is Perfect!
        "Perfection in awakened mind” refers to the fact that all phenomena— all appearances and possibilities—regardless of’ how they manifest, whether perceived as pure or impure, are fundamentally subsumed within the scope of naturally occurring timeless awareness, arise within that scope, and abide within that scope. The situation is similar to the way in which a person’s state of sleep, and the various dream images that manifest therein, are subsumed with in the scope of that person’s awareness, arise within that scope, and are dependent on that scope. And so there is perfection in mind itself, awakened mind."
        Longchenpa discusses whether some may need to do practices if they haven’t realized rigpa awareness:
        "They may ask whether, even so, we still need to do these things (practices), because we have not yet reached that level?”
        “This is our reply: Kye, unfortunate ones! Going from one place to another does not exist. Since there is no going, there is no reaching. What you are doing is ludicrous! It is like trying to go somewhere else than where you are in order to look for yourselves. According to our scriptures, people like you have only superficial understanding, and the way you live is a disgrace! "
        Longchenpa:
        "Awareness abides as the aspect which is aware under any and all circumstances, and so occurs naturally, without transition or change."

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        • 10h

        • Jackson Peterson
        “We can formulate the following logical reasoning: Karmic actions and results are mere appearances devoid of true existence, because no self, no actor, exists to perform them. This is a valid way to put things because if the self of the individual does not exist, there cannot be any action, and therefore there cannot be any result of any action either."
        Khenpo Tsulstrim Gyamtso
        Khenpo continues:
        "Someone might ask, “Isn’t it nihilistic to think that karmic actions and their results do not exist?” In fact, this is not a nihilistic view because there exists no self to have any nihilistic view. There can be a nihilistic view only if there is someone to hold it, but since there is no one to have any view, then there can be no nihilism. Furthermore, since the thought of nihilism neither arises nor abides nor ceases, there can be no nihilism in genuine reality. Genuine reality transcends the conceptual fabrications of realism and nihilism. It transcends karmic actions and results, and the absence of karmic actions and results as well. If karmic actions and their results do not exist in the abiding nature of reality, then what is the quality of their appearance?
        Nagarjuna describes this in the chapter’s thirty-third verse:
        “Mental afflictions, actions, and bodies, as well as actors and results, are like cities of imaginary beings, like mirages, and like dreams."
        Khenpo Tsulstrim Gyatso

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        • Soh Wei Yu

        “Mipham:

        "All of the faults of samsara arise from the deluded mind which apprehends a personal self or a self of phenomena. Since this deluded mind also is adventitious like clouds in the sky, from the beginning neither mixing nor polluting the luminous clarity of the primordial basic nature, these faults are separate from the basic element and suitable to be removed. Therefore, the essence of the basic element is empty of these faults; it is untainted. Without depending on the polluting delusion, the basic element is luminous and clear by its own nature; self-existing wisdom permeates the thusness197 of all phenomena. It is not empty of that which it is inseparable from, the basic element of consummate qualities, because in its essence, this is the basic nature from which it is inseparable—like the sun and its rays of light.

        In this way, the naturally abiding heritage is established as the unconditioned essence of the Truth Body, which is primordially endowed with qualities. Due to the potential to be a buddha, the Wisdom Truth Body, without decrease or increase, necessarily resides in the mind-streams of all sentient beings, because in training on the path, the potential to be a buddha is established by the power of fact. Also, since the Truth Body at the time of being a buddha is unconditioned—it is not possible for it to be a conditioned phenomenon that is newly formed by causes and conditions—it is established that “it presently resides as the essence of the buddha.”

        Regarding this, some people think, “If it presently resides as the essence of the buddha, why does that omniscient wisdom not dispel the obscurations of these sentient beings?” Or fixating upon the range of meanings of the common vehicle, they think, “Since the buddha is the effect and sentient beings are the cause, the effect being present in the cause is invalidated by reason, using such reasoning as the eating of food would [absurdly entail] the eating of excrement.”

        For you who have been guided by merely a limited understanding of the common scriptures and have not trained in the meaning of the extremely profound, definitive meaning sutras, it is no wonder that such qualms have arisen! These [objections of yours], however, are not the case. Why? Although the suchness that is luminous and clear wisdom is present in everything without distinction, when adventitious delusion arises in one’s mind, the basis of designation of samsara is only this deluded mind together with its object; due to this delusion, one’s suchness is not known as it is. For example, when sleeping, due to the power of mental consciousness alone, unrestricted appearances arise such as the body, objects, and eye-consciousness, and so forth. At that time, although the subject and object are observed and apprehended separately, the mental consciousness itself is not able to know its own mode of being, in which the perceived [object] and the perceiving [subject] are not established as different; even though it is not known, there is nothing other than this mode of being. Likewise, all phenomena abide as emptiness; even so, merely being like this does not entail that everyone realizes this, because there is the possibility of delusion—appearances that do not accord with reality.

        Therefore, since mind and the wisdom of the essential nature are [respectively] phenomenon and suchness, sentient beings and the Buddha are taught in terms of the mode of appearance and the mode of reality. Thus, using the reason that the effect is present in the cause to invalidate this position is simply not understanding it. In this way, this reasoning is that the evidence of a clear manifestation of the Truth Body at the time of the fruition establishes that the heritage, primordially endowed with qualities, is present at the time of the cause because there is no temporal causality in the mode of reality; nevertheless, in dependence upon the mode of appearance, it is necessarily posited as cause and effect. —LION’S ROAR: EXPOSITION ON BUDDHA-NATURE, 575–79

        Duckworth, Douglas; Mipam, Jamgon. Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings (pp. 164-165). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.”


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        • 13m

        • Soh Wei Yu
        “EMPTINESS DEVIATING TO THE BASIC NATURE
        Timeless Deviation to the Nature of Knowables The meditation of inseparable phenomena and emptiness is called “emptiness endowed with the supreme aspect.” Not knowing how emptiness and interdependence abide in nonduality, you decide that emptiness is a nothingness that has never existed and that is not influenced at all by qualities or defects. Then you underestimate the cause and effect of virtue and vice, or else lapse exclusively into the nature of all things being originally pure, primordially free, and so forth. Bearing such emptiness, the relative level of interdependence is not mastered. In this respect, this is what is known as mahamudra: one’s basic nature is unoriginated and, since it is neither existent nor nonexistent, eternal nor nil, true nor false, nor any other such aspects, it has no existence whatsoever. Nonetheless, its unceasing radiance arises as the relative level of all kinds of interdependence, so it is known as emptiness having the core of interdependence and interdependence having the nature of emptiness. Therefore, emptiness does not stray to the nature of knowables. In the Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way it is said: Anything that doesn’t arise dependently Is a phenomenon that has no existence. Therefore anything that is not empty Is a phenomenon that has no existence. And as said in the Commentary on Bodhichitta: It is taught that the relative plane is emptiness, And emptiness alone is the relative plane.” – The Royal Seal of Mahamudra, Volume 2, Khamtrul Rinpoche

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        • 11m

        • Soh Wei Yu
        "I’ve never met anyone who gained any insight into emptiness at direct introduction. Plenty who recognized rigpa kechigma though.
        I don’t presume to know better than luminaries like Longchenpa and Khenpo Ngachung who state emptiness isn’t actually known until third vision and so on. You may presume otherwise and in that case we can agree to disagree."
        - Kyle Dixon
        The Degrees of Rigpa
        AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
        The Degrees of Rigpa
        The Degrees of Rigpa

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        • Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
        AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
        Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
        Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

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    • Eduardo de Carvalho
      Soh Wei Yu I'm going to share your suggestion. There are several levels of teaching for various levels of capacity.

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      • 1d

      • Eduardo de Carvalho
      Soh Wei Yu These seem to be teaching directed to Tantrikas...
      "All debate is jus blind play, all Tantrikas just create illusions in the mind, all scholars only speak words— but all of these words are empty and make no sense! It is not worthwhile to engage in this!"

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      • 1d

      • Soh Wei Yu
      And those quotes I pasted above have shared what is the Dzogchen approach towards liberating afflictions and how adherents of nihilism belong to the “path of the most inferior” with no hope of liberation until they abandon their wrong views.
      1

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      • Jackson Peterson
      Soh Wei Yu no, this is misunderstood by the mind of Soh, but Soh is not the mind which misunderstands:
      There is No Connection between Awareness and Mind
      The primary delusion, exists only at the level of the mind, nowhere else, and that mind isn’t “me, isn’t mine and isn’t true identity”. Mind is not Awareness. Reflections are not the mirror.
      It is when the mind, all on its own, develops a sense of being a real self-identity generated as its own “me” feeling, that the story of “me” begins. It would be like in the moment that some super-computer suddenly started computing regarding its own existence and identity, and began obsessing endlessly about its own imagined self definitions.
      When thoughts (computations) occur like “I decide” or “I think” or “I remember” or “I prefer” or “l believe” or “I am”; all the “I’s” at the beginning of those phrases belongs to the mind representing its own imaginary sense of agency as being a thinker, decider, believer, recaller, as one who prefers or one who claims existence or being.
      No actual entity exists in the mind who actually is doing any of that mental activity (computation). Mental activities (computations) occur on their own according to dependent origination (cause and effect) as natural organic processes; just like atmospheric conditions do.
      No one is doing “identification” as the establishing of various identities. The sense of personal identity and selfhood is purely a construction of the mind, as the mind’s own self-organizing activity, not that of awareness, because awareness has nothing to do with what the mind thinks, believes or conceives. Awareness and mind have no connection. You are awareness, not mind. Only the mind thinks otherwise and awareness doesn’t think.
      Just like your computer and all its soft-ware programs are sitting on your desk across the room from you. There is no identity confusion between you over here and the computer over there (we hope!). Mind and Awareness are also always completely separate. But Awareness also doesn’t “use” a mind like humans use a computer. Awareness is totally inactive and all pervasive like infinite space.
      The saying “we create our world and self through our own thinking and concepts”, erroneously implies that there actually exists a real entity that creates its world through thoughts and concepts as the “we” in the saying. But there is only the impersonal mind generating multiple computations regarding itself and its surroundings. No living ghost 👻is in that mental machine or bio-computer running it.
      There is absolutely no entity who “uses” the mind to think thoughts. There is only the mind engaged in “thinking” like the heart engages in pumping. There is no one in the heart doing the pumping, just like there is no one in the mind doing the thinking and no one who is believing those thoughts.
      Awareness doesn’t do anything mental or intentional, it just “knows” and “is”.
      Awareness doesn’t become “identified” with the mind; identification occurs only within the mind as its own computational process of assuming illusory self-defining identities. The mind is its own self-organizing processes, no one is running it.
      When the mind ceases generating or computing an “I” reference point, no other active “I” nor sense of self remains.
      If concepts arise like “my mind, my memories, my thoughts, my beliefs”, those thoughts actually refer to the mind’s ownership of those mental phenomena. Awareness doesn’t “own” or do anything, it simply is only the cognitive “presence” that “knows”.
      Prasangika and Madhyamaka merely relate to and describe mental processes or computations and their reifications occurring within the mind (sem), but has nothing to say about awareness itself.
      When awareness is absent of mind, and suddenly there arises a sense of “falling back into karmic mind” again, the “one” who is falling back into karmic mind, is only the karmic mind generating its own self-identity experiencing its own mental experience
      of “falling back”.
      Awareness never moved or relapsed or “fell back” into karmic mind. Awareness just “knows” that mental experience is occurring within the mind.
      As taught in Dzogchen, Pali Buddhism, Samkhya and Advaita; a differentiation (viveka, vivicca) has to occur between mind and Awareness. The Awareness doesn’t do the “differentiating”, the mind does. The mind can suddenly compute that no self identity of any kind can be found to exist within its own mental processes, and the mind’s “I” making abruptly ceases.
      “Identification” as establishing being a real “someone” or something, was found to be a futile computing effort by the mind, and it ceases doing so. This is much like when the mind ceases generating the idea of snake, when the coiled rope is seen to be only a rope. The mind abandons that snake-making activity. The mind, like a computer, has its own built-in “auto-correct” mechanism. No one, no “self”realized the mistake. But the mind generates the thought “I realized the mistake” after it personalizes its auto-correct computational mechanism by falsely attributing the corrective action to an imaginary, mind-made self.
      Another mistaken notion is that somehow awareness could become “distracted”. Or that awareness could exercise attention towards various mental or perceptual objects or even upon itself. Attention, mindfulness and focus are capacities that belong only to the mind, not Awareness. Awareness is always still, serene and unmoving like empty aware, all pervasive space.
      Just like it looks like there is an entity in the pumpkin: 🎃, there isn’t and similarly there is no personal self-entity existing in the mind nor one existing out of the mind. 🙀
      Not seeing this, is the mind’s “trick”, while seeing this, is the real “treat”.
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      • 1d

      • Eduardo de Carvalho
      Soh Wei Yu "In Tantra, they practise three contemplations. They follow after thoughts. There are different types of thoughts — good thoughts, bad thoughts. This Tantra teaching focuses on good thoughts, while bad thoughts are negative emotions — anger, desire, jealously, pride, ignorance and so forth. Those are bad thoughts. So there are good and bad thoughts. Your Guru Yoga is a good thought. But still it's a thought nevertheless. Your bodhichitta is a thought."

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      • 1d

      • Soh Wei Yu
      Jackson Peterson Still stuck at apparent within the real - first tozan rank 🤦🏻‍♂️after 50 years. face palm

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      • Soh Wei Yu
      But as the Mahamudra teacher Gharwang Rinpoche said,
      “Understanding these qualities of the mind—its essence, nature, and characteristics—is fundamental to the features of mahāmudrā practice. For example, in mahāmudrā practice, you may encounter the instruction to not abandon thoughts. This might sound very strange to meditators from other traditions, but if you really understand the nature of the mind, then you will understand the profundity of this instruction. Thoughts are not harmful things in and of themselves. The final goal of mahāmudrā practice is not the cessation of all thoughts. This is not something that we strive for. It is said in the mahāmudrā tradition the essence of thought is the dharmakāya, the truth body of a buddha. So, in a certain sense, practicing with the aim to abandon thought would be like aiming to abandon the dharmakāya. In fact, many mahāmudrā masters say that when thoughts arise, they feel so happy and joyful because, for them, more thoughts means more opportunity to experience the dharmakāya.” - Mahamudra: A Practical Guide
      Session Start: Monday, September 22, 2008
      (12:31 PM) AEN: hi i replied u just now
      (12:31 PM) AEN: i mean forum
      (12:54 PM) Thusness: don't talk about effortless and spontaneity
      (12:54 PM) Thusness: if we look at Isis question, why is it so?
      (12:54 PM) Thusness: why is there fear and phobia?
      (12:55 PM) Thusness: What is mind?
      (12:56 PM) AEN: bcos of past experiences right
      (12:56 PM) AEN: like something happened before
      (12:56 PM) AEN: and so when he/she experience something (like dog)
      (12:57 PM) AEN: then he/she will react through conditioned thinking
      (12:57 PM) AEN: so give rise to fear
      (12:57 PM) Thusness: u r using logical reasoning
      (12:57 PM) AEN: its like habitual reaction
      (12:58 PM) AEN: or karmic propensity?
      (12:58 PM) Thusness: all experiences that resulted has just one impact, they becomes imprints
      (12:58 PM) AEN: oic
      (12:58 PM) Thusness: so what is mind?
      (12:58 PM) AEN: imprints and mental activities?
      (12:58 PM) Thusness: u must feel it
      (12:59 PM) Thusness: it is not an entity...
      (12:59 PM) Thusness: it is a tendency
      (12:59 PM) Thusness: that is not as an entity...u still have that sensation as if it is a Witness, an entity because u cannot feel this truth yet.
      (1:00 PM) Thusness: can u see that mind As an arising tendency
      (1:01 PM) AEN: the other day when meditating i had a sense suddenly that my entire mind is just tendencies arising, and there is like no thinker
      (1:01 PM) Thusness: yes

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      • 9m

      • Soh Wei Yu
      (1:02 PM) Thusness: u must first feel this truth with ur entire being
      (1:02 PM) Thusness: like what Jeff Foster said, 'YOU' r just an arising thought
      (1:02 PM) AEN: oic
      (1:02 PM) Thusness: don't worry too much how it arises and how it subsides
      (1:03 PM) Thusness: for now, u must see 'what is'
      (1:03 PM) Thusness: a thought arises, then subsides
      (1:03 PM) Thusness: then sound, then subsides
      (1:03 PM) Thusness: then another thought arises
      (1:04 PM) Thusness: what is thought?
      (1:04 PM) AEN: just thought lor
      (1:04 PM) AEN: awareness?
      (1:04 PM) Thusness: no good
      (1:04 PM) AEN: its like a kind of phenomena just like sound, sight, etc
      (1:05 PM) AEN: but a different kind
      (1:05 PM) Thusness: very good
      (1:05 PM) Thusness: very good. 🙂
      (1:05 PM) Thusness: what sort of phenomena?
      (1:05 PM) AEN: dunnu how to describe it leh
      (1:05 PM) AEN: mental phenomena?
      (1:05 PM) Thusness: haha...
      (1:05 PM) Thusness: yes what is it like?
      (1:06 PM) AEN: images recalled, mental reasoning, arising in the mind?
      (1:07 PM) Thusness: yes
      (1:07 PM) AEN: words, etc
      (1:07 PM) Thusness: but what that is more important, it is a 'knowing' or 'luminous' phenomenon
      (1:07 PM) AEN: icic..
      (1:08 PM) Thusness: an arising thought, then another arising thought
      (1:08 PM) AEN: oic..
      (1:08 PM) Thusness: each thought is 'luminous'
      (1:08 PM) Thusness: first u must know this
      (1:08 PM) Thusness: but if u see it from all previous experiences, u 'see' differently.
      (1:09 PM) Thusness: what is seen is 'An Eternal Witness' sort of experience.
      (1:09 PM) Thusness: is it not true?
      (1:10 PM) AEN: yea
      (1:10 PM) AEN: and theres a subtle tendency to push away all thoughts rather than simple see everything as it is
      (1:10 PM) AEN: or rather
      (1:10 PM) AEN: attempt to be the background awareness
      (1:10 PM) Thusness: yes the tendency to push, to relate to a 'center' a source
      (1:10 PM) Thusness: to be a container, a background
      (1:11 PM) Thusness: u must feel the differences
      (1:11 PM) AEN: icic..
      (1:12 PM) Thusness: it is just a tendency to relate back to a source and refuses to 'see' what is.
      (1:13 PM) Thusness: every arising of a thought carries with it deeply rooted imprints
      (1:13 PM) Thusness: that 'blinds'
      (1:13 PM) AEN: oic..
      (1:14 PM) AEN: and the eternal witness is the thought of what is and what isnt awareness right, then becomes a tendency
      (1:14 PM) AEN: to sink back to a center
      (1:14 PM) Thusness: yes

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      • 9m

      • Soh Wei Yu
      (1:14 PM) Thusness: but first u must understand 'thought'
      (1:14 PM) AEN: icic..
      (1:15 PM) Thusness: a thought is luminous
      (1:15 PM) Thusness: a luminous arising mental phenomena
      (1:15 PM) AEN: oic..
      (1:15 PM) Thusness: isn't it?
      (1:16 PM) AEN: yes
      (1:16 PM) Thusness: besides that what else? Isn't it always so?
      (1:16 PM) Thusness: 'You r just an arising thought'
      (1:17 PM) Thusness: a luminous thought at this moment 'looking' back, relating
      (1:17 PM) Thusness: pondering
      (1:17 PM) Thusness: in thinking, there is only thoughts
      (1:17 PM) AEN: oic..
      (1:17 PM) Thusness: now meditate on the stanza
      (1:18 PM) Thusness: in thinking there is only thought
      (1:18 PM) Thusness: in hearing, there is only sound
      (1:18 PM) Thusness: just this two lines is enough
      (1:19 PM) AEN: icic..
      (1:21 PM) AEN: so whenever thoughts, tendency arise, we should just experience the thought as it is
      (1:21 PM) AEN: as luminous
      (1:21 PM) Thusness: no
      (1:22 PM) Thusness: u must first understand clearly what is meant by no-self
      (1:23 PM) Thusness: but know what is thought first.
      (1:23 PM) Thusness: then understand anatta
      (1:23 PM) AEN: oic..
      (1:31 PM) Thusness: What is the different between in 'thinking, no thinker' and in thinking, only thoughts?
      (1:31 PM) AEN: the luminosity of the thought is not thoroughly experienced even though there is insight into no split?
      (1:31 PM) AEN: i dunno
      (1:32 PM) Thusness: until u understand, then tell me.
      (1:32 PM) Thusness: 😛
      (1:32 PM) AEN: lol ok
      (1:35 PM) AEN: in thinking, only thought, means each thought is discrete and complete?
      (1:35 PM) AEN: no linking
      (1:37 PM) AEN: before that there is still chaining of one thought with another?
      (1:39 PM) Thusness: okie..so so only...anyway u have not understood the real essence of being unsupported, discrete and complete yet.
      (1:40 PM) AEN: icic..
      (1:40 PM) Thusness: just meditate on the first 2 lines : in thinking, just thoughts and in hearing, just sound
      (1:40 PM) AEN: ok

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      • 9m

      • Soh Wei Yu
      2006:
      (10:51 PM) John: there is a passage ken wilber wrote...i m looking for it.
      (10:57 PM) John: Rather, the very deepest part of you is one with the entire Kosmos in all its radiant glory. You simply are everything that is arising moment to moment. You do not see the sky, you are the sky. You do not touch the earth, you are the earth. You do not hear the rain, you are the rain. You and the universe are what the mystics call "One Taste."
      (10:59 PM) John: This is not poetry. This is a direct realization, as direct as a glass of cold water in the face. As a great Zen Master said upon his enlightenment "When I heard the sound of the bell ringing, there is no bell and no I, just the ringing."
      (11:00 PM) John: 1997 Journal Sunday, March 9
      (11:01 PM) John: There is no inside and no outside, no in here versus out there. The nondual univese of One Taste arises as a spontaneous gesture of your own true nature. You can taste the sun and swallow the moon, and centuries fit in the palm of your hand.
      (11:01 PM) John: all these are experiences of anatta. 🙂 (comment: John would later clarify that while Ken Wilber's experience is non-dual, the view is of substantial non-dual rather than anatta, i.e. One Mind / Thusness Stage 4)
      (11:02 PM) John: but sinking back to the source.
      (11:02 PM) John: that is why non inherent nature, emptiness nature of Presence is very important.
      (11:02 PM) John: one sees the luminosity but forgotten about its emptiness nature
      (11:03 PM) John: this will cause one to overlook karma.
      (11:03 PM) John: Presence has no self, nor otherness
      (11:03 PM) John: it also IS and the IS arises and ceases
      (11:04 PM) John: this rises, that arises
      (11:04 PM) John: and ISness is that arising as well as ceasing
      (11:04 PM) John: the nature is empty.
      (11:05 PM) John: when one sink back to the source and say pure consciousness without object is the highest....then one falls.
      (11:05 PM) John: manifested and unmanifested are one. A stage that has entry and exit isn't the expression of dharma. 🙂
      (11:06 PM) AEN: oic..
      (11:07 PM) AEN: but when one says 'all is consciousness' there isnt distinction between manifested and unmanifested rite
      (11:08 PM) John: there is discernment, there is no discrimination. One understand clearly the emptiness nature of our nature. The clarity will deepens even further if we understand this.
      (11:09 PM) John: now...why is there deep sleep and dreams?
      (11:09 PM) AEN: conditions?
      (11:09 PM) John: yes
      (11:10 PM) John: when one is aware of a dreamless state, why so?
      (11:10 PM) John: when one is aware of dream, why so?
      (11:10 PM) John: because our nature is empty
      (11:11 PM) John: that is why dreamless state to dream to waking
      (11:11 PM) John: when we say Presence, is ringing the same as the color 'green'?
      (11:12 PM) AEN: icic..
      (11:12 PM) AEN: nope
      (11:12 PM) John: but the ringing is total presence without 'I'
      (11:13 PM) John: sames goes to color
      (11:13 PM) John: does our buddha nature fail to discern?
      (11:13 PM) John: sky is me, the rain is me....how come?
      (11:14 PM) John: one knows the luminosity but fail to see the emptiness nature.
      (11:14 PM) John: this is what i say why buddha fall into samsara.
      (11:14 PM) AEN: oic
      (11:14 PM) John: there is a thread right?
      (11:15 PM) AEN: which thread?
      (11:15 PM) John: why buddha has fallen...
      (11:15 PM) AEN: yes
      (11:17 PM) John: eheheh
      (11:17 PM) AEN: yea
      (11:17 PM) AEN: lol
      (11:18 PM) John: too brilliance bright result in the fall. 😛
      (11:19 PM) AEN: icic..
      (11:20 PM) John: If the nature of mind is this all-pervading, brilliant union of luminosity and emptiness, ungraspable, how is it that it could be obscured, even for a moment, let alone lifetime after lifetime?
      (11:20 PM) John: how pitiful if one gone through all the stages of fruition and fall.
      (11:21 PM) AEN: oic..
      (11:21 PM) AEN: fall as in how? go back to samsara?
      (11:22 PM) John: depending on ones condition
      (11:23 PM) AEN: oic
      (11:43 PM) John: Sunday, April 27 1997
      No, as you rest in Witness -- realizing, I am not objects, I am not feelings, I am not thoughts -- all you will notice is a sense of Freedom, a sense of liberation, a sense of Release....
      (11:43 PM) John: does buddhism teach this?
      (11:43 PM) AEN: oic wat about it
      (11:43 PM) AEN: oops
      (11:43 PM) AEN: sorry din scroll down
      (11:44 PM) AEN: skhandas are empty of self yes... but not sure about resting in witness
      (11:45 PM) John: there is no I am feelings, I am thinking...
      (11:45 PM) John: feeling alone there is, no feeler
      (11:45 PM) John: empty phenomenon rolls
      (11:46 PM) John: actually the feeling is the emptiness nature of our buddha mind.
      (11:46 PM) John: disassociation is not it, association is also not it.
      (11:47 PM) John: by disassociating it and say the source is in direct contradiction.
      (11:47 PM) John: then why is one with the sky, the rain?
      (11:47 PM) John: but not thoughts and feelings
      (11:47 PM) AEN: icic..
      (11:47 PM) John: so some i associate, some don't associate 😛
      (11:48 PM) AEN: lol
      (11:48 PM) AEN: oh theres something i just read recently
      (11:48 PM) John: when the emptiness nature is clear, there is no problem with all these.
      BUDHDHISM.SGFORUMS.COM
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Dogen, Gorampa, Tsongkhapa, +A and -A Emptiness

 

    John Tan
    Om1hc24tt11oSber 28 00at t4i5612:3so7 P1arfeMd  ·
    I wonder why I can't find any article on the internet comparing Dogen's and Tsongkhapa's thoughts.
    If both masters were to meet to discuss their practice philosophies of "mere existence" and total exertion, a gem masterpiece on non-dual epistemology of the 3 times will surely emerge.
    I maybe completely wrong 🤣 but if anyone can find any article linking both of their thoughts, pls leave a note here.
    43 Comments

    Liu Zhi Guan
    No fan of Gorampa?🤔
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    John Tan
    Gorampa is more on the exhaustion of the conventional into freedom from all elaborations. I classified it under the -A of emptiness in ATR context.
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    Liu Zhi Guan
    John Tan I see,though afaik Gorampa's presentation of Madhyamika adheres more to the original Nagarjuna's Madhyamika, whereas Gelug or prasangika Madhyamika is more of Tibetan formulation by Tsongkhapa

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    John Tan
    Liu Zhi Guan True in certain sense but Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka also evolved over time from India toTibet before it became the present day Prasangika Madhyamaka. So imo we should also not undermine the creativity and insights of Tsongkhapa.
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    Liu Zhi Guan
    John Tan I concur. Tsongkhapa was certainly a great Buddhist meditator and scholar.
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    Liu Zhi Guan
    John Tan one question I have in mind:Is the purpose of koan to achieve the exhaustion of the conventional into freedom from all elaborations,albeit with different approach from Madhyamika?

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    John Tan
    Liu Zhi Guan Zen koans relate more to the direct pointing of one's radiance clarity whereas mmk is abt letting the mind sees it's own fabrications and allowing it to free itself from all elaborations (non Gelug) or free itself from all fabrications (Gelug). The most crucial insight of both Gelug and non Gelug (imo) is to let the mind realizes the primordial purity (emptiness) nature of both mind/phenomena.
    Although Mipham treated gelug's freedom from self nature as categorized ultimate, I can only tell u I disagree. Both are able to achieve their objectives (imo). In fact if u were to ask for my sincere opinion, I prefer freedom from self nature (Gelug) as if understood properly and with experiential insight, it will lead to both +A and -A of emptiness.
    If we were to treat the conventional (conceptuality) as the cause of ignorance, it prevents some very valuable insights that will take probably a lot of time to detail out. I will not go too detail into that.
    In short seeing through intrinsic existence will similarly allow practitioners to see through conceptual constructs (non-conceptualities), see through duality (non-dual) and substantiality (essencelessness). Phenomena lack of self-nature also lacks sameness or difference, therefore their primordially purity will likewise be realized and selflessness also results in natural spontaneity; yet because practitioners put freedom from self-nature at a higher order, they will not be bounded by either conceptualities or non-conceptualities and are free to explore both.
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    Liu Zhi Guan
    John Tan I see,perhaps what I had in mind earlier was actually huatou,which afaik is meant to break mental profilerations?
    Also may you elaborate on the diff btw free from all elaboration and fabrications? Is it that the former break all forms of conceptualities to realize the ineffable state,while the latter still allows for conceptualities but utilizes it to break conceptualities itself?

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    John Tan
    Liu Zhi Guan Huatou does not actually "break" as in "seeing through" mental proliferations imo but it does immobilizes the conceptual mind and allows a sudden leap from the conceptual into the non-conceptual where one authenticates the original face directly. Realising how one's mind proliferates is different from realizing our original face.
    U can take freedom from all elaborations as freedom from conceptualities and free from fabrications as freedom from superimposing self-nature/intrinsic existence on mind/phenomena.
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    Edmond Cigale
    Now that would be an interesting discussion for sure. A tantric and a zen master...
    👍👍
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    John Tan
    Edmond Cigale indeed. 👍 But definitely beyond me. I just hope there r articles abt it.
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    Edmond Cigale
    John Robert Thurman is a great scholar and writes about Je Tsongkhapa. He does write (or talk) about Mahayana, maybe about zen as well...
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    John Tan
    Edmond Cigale Definitely will be interesting if he publishes a book on them since he is so well-versed in Zen and Tsongkhapa's philosophy.👍
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    Edmond Cigale
    John write him.
    🙂
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    John Tan
    Edmond Cigale lol..
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    Michael Hernandez
    John Tan I'll write him. I've written to presidents, house speakers ECT.
    What exactly would you want me to ask?
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    Edmond Cigale
    Michael very good!
    Actually, I wasn't joking. It would be worth while exploring the topics, especially with your empirical background, John.
    👍👍
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    Michael Hernandez
    Edmond Cigale
    Yes, I'm not joking either.
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    Edmond Cigale
    Michael 👍👍👍

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    John Tan
    Michael Hernandez sorry let me finish my candy crush first. Too many rewards.😁🤣
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    Michael Hernandez
    Edmond Cigale I wrote President Trump in the spring around 2017 advising him to take action on North Korea.
    However the action taken wasn't what I had in mind.
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    John Tan
    Michael Hernandez Actually nothing in particular...lol. I believe u know ATR well and probably about the +A and -A version of emptiness in ATR.
    To me, Gorampa and Mipham are more on exhaustion of the conventional into freedom from all elaborations. I classify it under the -A of emptiness in ATR context.
    Tsongkhapa on the other hand embraced the conventional wholeheartedly into freedom from all fabrications (fabrication as in attachment to intrinsic existence). I classify it under the +A of emptiness in ATR context. This is very similar to Dogen's total exertion.
    Ippo-gujin (total exertion), I will define here as wholehearted engagement in the mundane activities of everydayness of everyday, essentially no different from bahiya sutta of in the seen just the seen. In this actualisation, entire "body mind environment universe" is one participation without any need to subsume into an all encompassing substantial non-dual awareness; instead all conventional diversities are fully intact yet miraculously involved in a harmonious unity.
    When I read Tsongkhapa's thought somehow I can relate quite easily with my ATR background, from his "one nature different isolates" to "mere existence" to non-dual espistemology via just simply focusing on understanding "lack of intrinsic existence" thoroughly.
    Dogen's total exertion is the mystical and zen-ish approach of epistemic non-dual and often presented in a cryptic manner 😁 whereas Tsongkhapa's is the rational, logical and systematic way towards epistemic non-dual. I think they make good complements. Unfortunately I know too little of Tsongkhapa's tantric teachings to understand how his views are being integrated into his tantric practices.
    Robert Thurman came to my mind when Edmond Cigale mentioned about him. Since he was the Je Tsongkhapa Professor of Indo-Tibetan Buddhist Studies at Columbia University and once commented that Dogen's Zen is very tantric. I think it will be interesting if he has an article on it. In case u write to him, pls don't mention abt ATR, Soh Wei Yu will create havoc out of it.🤣
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    Michael Hernandez
    John Tan there are a number of books that on commentaries on Tsongkhapa's Six Yogas of Naropa from Gelupa view.
    I've never read them.
    "Tantra" if course is an interesting word. We can define and categorize it the historical sense or as you indicated more in a broad spiritual sense experience from other mystic zennish traditions.
    In this sense is there a difference between the Indian yogi living in a cave or an ancient practitioner of chan living in a cave?
    In Jodo Shinshu Amida Buddha "becomes me".
    Completely misunderstood even by most practitioner of Jodo Shinshu who do not understand the Name is the Buddha they believe the Buddha is out there someplace. No. Amida Buddha IS the Name not something said to get to a Pure Land. Misunderstood because this Buddha is not a Buddha until all else are first.
    It is said that one does not become Amida Buddha but "Amida Buddha becomes me".
    That the sound of "AH" was of particular importance.
    So much so that Japanese esoteric Buddhism placed this practice very highly. While Japanese esoteric Buddhism never developed a Dzogchen/Mahamudra like practice they did have something like the generation and completion practices.
    Certainly Zen might be the next "extension" or "expansion" in practice after the completion phase. The way Zen is being practiced as in some American Jodo Shinshu certainly.
    Tantra would though have an element of utilizing visualization in any cultural practice. We might call voodoo Tantric or even some witch craft. However if I draw an imaginary line in the sand I would have to say the goal needs to be (A) "expansion" towards an infinite unlimited ultimate "ineffable" rather than (😎 contraction toward a narrowly defined conventional designation i.e "money", "love" or "revenge".
    Nowadays in India however any tantra is indeed pointed towards the conventionally mundane as "black magic".
    #1 How is Zen like or unlike Tantra?
    Or # 2 are some Zen practices tantric like in nature?
    (I've read it argued Zen is nothing like Dzogchen/Mahamudra. Well certainly the explicit meaning of the word Zen as transliteration of dhyana wouldn't be for sure.
    However when we refer to the ineffability of so named "Buddha Nature" exactly to designate conventional nature would not then make that experience "ineffable" ultimate but like more as Tsongkhapa?)
    So I would if you could John or Edmond Cigale, have the quote from Robert Thurman about Dogen's Zen being very tantric?
    This way I can ask him directly how his meaning this was from the quotation and place and date he quoted it.
    He might not recall exactly without a prompt.
    I can let you proofread the letter first to add or correct any errors.
    Thanks
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    Tyler Jones
    John Tan Jay Garfield comes to my mind, he is very versed in cross-cultural philosophical dialogue, sees connections that others don't, and is an expert on Tsongkhapa, not sure if he knows about Dogen specifically though.
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    Tyler Jones
    Probably easier to get ahold of Garfield than Thurman 😅.
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    Michael Hernandez
    John Tan Edmond Cigale
    Here's the quote and possibly the answer. The entire article is of interest really in context with your conventional question.
    If we play out the imagination as the Tantric vehicle the as how Robert Thurman puts it then as he says earlier in the interview about zen:
    "RT: In a literal sense, yes. However, I think Zen is very tantric. Take Dogen’s Zen, a practice which says that when you sit you are Buddha. You don’t meditate as a “means-end” practice of trying to attain a buddhahood which is remote from you in time and space. When you sit, you are Buddha. And if you don’t happen to feel like Buddha that’s just a bad habit which you have to pierce or break through.
    IM: So tantra is really a creation and projection of a purified state of mind.
    RT: That’s right. Tantric initiation is an opening of imaginative space where you have a vision of potential perfection. You may still feel like a “schmo,” but that’s the dynamic tension. Your habitual imagination of yourself as an unenlightened schmo is brought into tension with an artificially constructed imagination of yourself as a perfected being."
    https://www.inquiringmind.com/article/0801_01_thurman/
    Interview with Robert A. F. Thurman: Talking Tantra - Inquiring Mind
    INQUIRINGMIND.COM
    Interview with Robert A. F. Thurman: Talking Tantra - Inquiring Mind
    Interview with Robert A. F. Thurman: Talking Tantra - Inquiring Mind
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    Michael Hernandez
    In Jodo Shinshu "Amida Buddha becomes me just as I am" i.e a foolish ordinary person "bombu"

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    John Tan
    Tyler Jones Oh yes! Jay Garfield without doubt will be another one. He too is very well versed with both Dogen's and Tsongkhapa's philosophies.

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    John Tan
    Michael Hernandez As Tyler Jones suggested, Jay Garfield is another scholar that is well equipped with both masters' philosophies.
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    John Tan
    Michael Hernandez also when u asked, remember it is not about "Zen and Tantra" but "Dogen and Tsongkhapa"😆. The reason is both r based on essencelessness and embracement of the conventional, therefore buddha nature is a buddha nature in ceaseless dynamism, in a matrix of diversities that interpenetrates.
    I have "Tsongkhapa's Six Yoga's of Naropa" in my collection but Robert Thurman "Brilliantly Illuminating the Lamp of the Five Stages" is a better read if we not into the actual practice of tantra (imo) but a great book if u want to know about Tsongkhapa's trantric experiences and achievements.
    Ok back to sleep Zzzzz😁.
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    Tyler Jones
    It's quite possible that no one has seen the potential benefit of such a comparison/exchange. On the surface they would seem quite alien to each other for sectarian reasons, eg. Tsongkhapa's view of Chan. Also, how widely appreciated is it that Dogen is one of very few famous Chan/Zen masters with a non-substaintialist view?
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    Tyler Jones
    Even to make such a distinction is rare in comments on Zen writings.

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    John Tan
    Tyler Jones that is true too, just my wild wish as I like both masters.

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    Tyler Jones
    Have you seen any East Asian masters with as strong of a potential dialogue with Tsongkhapa as Dogen, for instance from the Huayan or Tiantai traditions?

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    Tyler Jones
    Also, maybe you could entice some scholars into taking up such a dialogue if you first published an MMK commentary 😄.
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    John Tan
    Tyler Jones modern one yes like Hong Wen Liang or Hui Lui but rare. Many masters I read will present with cetain scent of substantialist non-dual even ancient masters of Huayan or Tiantai. There is nothing wrong with it but seldom do I see masters like Tsongkhapa and Dogen. But my respect for these 2 masters goes beyond just their philosophies, I feel "connected"🤣. Anyway I do not want to talk about it.
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    John Tan
    Tyler Jones pls, I m way out of the league. 😓

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    André A. Pais
    Jay Garfield indeed is an educated gelugpa with a seemingly zen practice running on the side. At least that's what it sounded like from some in-between the lines comments in his series of videos on yogacara.
    Anyway, he does have an article called Mountains are just Mountains, in a book called Pointing at the Moon - all zen references. I haven't read the book nor the article, but I'll put some sections here:
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    André A. Pais
    May be an image of text that says '6 Mountains Are Just Mountains Jay L. Garfield Graham Priest Before studied mountains After studying mountains, water longer mountains and vater Nagărjuna just vater.' Catușkoți both. proposition philosophy Aristotle, ofequally possibilities. traditional viewi ancestry,is ony). catușkoți. deployed catușkoți Nagărjuna famously ways. 11fou the Everythingis real and not not Neither unreal real. Buddha's teaching. POINTING The second negative. such cases, Thus, argues none four that rgues none four hold. applies the proposition "empty." They nor only for purpose fdesignation.? standardly, common the four possibilities the supposed Nagărjuna's prima facie. positive applied reality, thecontradictions various possibilities need disambiguatedwith'

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    André A. Pais
    May be an image of text

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    André A. Pais
    May be an image of text that says '69% Pointing the 76 POINTING THE MOON More emptiness. does from (This why Dögen can insist that practice chapter. Prior world; awaken most helpfully the that dently that inspired water- ssubstantially existent, independent things those Some impermanent. ontologically indepen- analysis, however, shows these phenomena andt fail things mately. Were one while error would would with he stop both his deprecate mountains Hence, mountains and be just from them therefore the two identity forming the existence as apprehension trans We connect dialectic and mans each catuş™koÈis semantic lattice (figure represents Zen dialectic. language, (represented (such the the squiggly truth values'

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    André A. Pais
    No photo description available.

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    André A. Pais
    May be an image of text that says 'Cogent Inconsistency isght puzzlinga assertion wac practice But practice initially Buddhist philosophy, And disparaged Madhyamaka despite knowh merely following Nagărjuna apprehends ignorance primor- things that fifth made positive system most external, dentification emptiness negation. POINTING THE extent, vindicated Hakuin's account identity dattainment xplained ox-herding that mountains mountains could eybe?'

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    ...........

Soh:


Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:09 am
Well, actually the I-making habit, the basic knowledge obscuration, has no real existence as a self, but it functions as an agent of karma and a recipient of karma, so there is that, even though the "I" it imputes does not exist at all.

...
No, it is an imagined, nonexistent self that causes and experiences everything, for example, when a car is in accident, it is the imagined car for which one pays the damages, not the wrong view of the imagined car. But perhaps this is a special point of Candrakīrti's Madhyamaka, unlikely to be found the Visuddhimagga.

John Tan:
This part was explained by Tsongkhapa why nominality can have causal efficacy

Soh:

oic..
in fact all assertions of causal efficacy is based on nominality isnt it


John Tan:
Yes as well as all functionalities just like fiat money facilitates international trade and international financial system but they can cause countries to collapse even though fiat money has only nominal existence.



I wonder why I can't find any article on the internet comparing Dogen's and Tsongkhapa's thoughts.

If both masters were to meet to discuss their practice philosophies of "mere existence" and total exertion, a gem masterpiece on non-dual epistemology of the 3 times will surely emerge.

I maybe completely wrong 🤣 but if anyone can find any article linking both their thoughts, pls leave a note here.

Soh:

Oic.. saw your msg
I think dogen is more experiential and anatta, and you said tsongkhapa more on view?


[2:15 pm, 28/10/2021] John Tan: U can say so but their view are the same abt +A of emptiness.  Though I find Tsongkhapa more rational in his approach whereas dogen is more poetic, intuitive and experiential carries +A much further.
[2:17 pm, 28/10/2021] John Tan: However it is not easy to present +A in such a rational and systematic way like Tsongkhapa did.
[2:21 pm, 28/10/2021] John Tan: Who is liu Zhi Guan?  Change name?

Soh:
Oic..
I dunno him seems like a singaporean

John Tan:

    Michael Hernandez Actually nothing in particular...lol.  I believe u know ATR well and probably about the +A and -A version of emptiness in ATR.

    To me, Gorampa and Mipham are more on exhaustion of the conventional into freedom from all elaborations. I classify it under the -A of emptiness in ATR context.

    Tsongkhapa on the other hand embraced the conventional wholeheartedly into freedom from all fabrications (fabrication as in attachment to intrinsic existence).  I classify it under the +A of emptiness in ATR context.  This is very similar to Dogen's total exertion.  

    Ippo-gujin (total exertion),  I will define here as wholehearted engagement in the mundane activities of everydayness of everyday, essentially no different from bahiya sutta of in the seen just the seen.  In this actualisation, entire "body mind environment universe" is one participation without any need to subsume into an all encompassing substantial non-dual awareness; instead all conventional diversities are fully intact yet miraculously involved in a harmonious unity.

    When I read Tsongkhapa's thought somehow I can relate quite easily with my ATR background, from his "one nature different isolates" to "mere existence" to non-dual espistemology via just simply focusing on understanding "intrinsic existence" thoroughly.

    Dogen's total exertion is the mystical and zen-ish approach of epistemic non-dual and often presented in a cryptic manner 😁 whereas Tsongkhapa's is the rational, logical and systematic way towards epistemic non-dual.  I think they make good complements.  Unfortunately I know too little of Tsongkhapa's tantric teachings to understand how his views are being integrated into his tantric practices.  

    Robert Thurman came to my mind when Edmond Cigale  mentioned about him.  Since he was the Je Tsongkhapa Professor of Indo-Tibetan Buddhist Studies at Columbia Universits and once commented that Dogen's Zen is very tantric, I think it will be interesting if he has an article on it.  In case u write to him, pls don't mention abt ATR, Soh Wei Yu will create havoc out of it.🤣

    Liu Zhi Guan Zen koans relate more to the direct pointing of one's radiance clarity whereas mmk is abt letting the mind sees it's own fabrications and allowing it to free itself from all elaborations (non Gelug) or free itself from all fabrications (Gelug).  The most crucial insight of both Gelug and non Gelug (imo) is to let the mind realizes the primordial purity (emptiness) nature of both mind/phenomena.

    Although Mipham treated gelug's freedom from self nature as categorized ultimate, I can only tell u I disagree. Both are able to achieve their objectives (imo).  In fact if u were to ask for my sincere opinion, I prefer freedom from self nature (Gelug) as if understood properly and with experiential insight, it will lead to both +A and -A of emptiness.

    If we were to treat the conventional  (conceptuality)  as the cause of ignorance, it prevents some very valuable insights that will take probably a lot of time to detail out.  I will not go too detail into that.  

    In short seeing through intrinsic existence will similarly allow practitioners to see through conceptual constructs (non-conceptualities), see through duality (non-dual) and substantiality (essencelessness).  Phenomena lack of self-nature also lacks sameness or difference, therefore their primordially purity will likewise be realized and selflessness also results in natural spontaneity; yet because practitioners put freedom from self-nature at a higher order, they will not be bounded by conceptualities and can embrace the conventional fully.
    Soh:
    Oic..
    Yeah like even my initial insight into anatta i would say is more of seeing through intrinsic existence. Non conceptuality is more like side effect
    [11:16 pm, 29/10/2021] John Tan: Yes
    [11:19 pm, 29/10/2021] John Tan: ATR insight is seeing through self nature except the praxis as in way of practice is direct approach via vipassana -- special insight.  The seeing through of self as a background is not through analysis.
    Soh: Oic.. thrangu rinpoche also said thats the diff between mahamudra and madhyamika
    [11:20 pm, 29/10/2021] John Tan: When that is seen through, one becomes effortlessly non-dual in experience as there is no subject to "dual".
    [11:22 pm, 29/10/2021] John Tan: Both essencelessness and non-dual dawn in a single leap but that doesn't mean one has thoroughly eradicated proliferation.  Hence mmk helps to do that.
    [11:24 pm, 29/10/2021] John Tan: So it is not about doing away with conceptualities but a special insight that sees through self nature.

    Post anatta and when we keep refining our view and eradicate proliferations, we will realize the supreme purity that free both poles of dualities.  That is not simply a collapse of subject-object duality, but a freedom from all dualities.  This too can be realized through contemplating freedom from self nature.  Experiences do turn non-conceptual but that is simply a by-product that comes along with the arising Prajna.  Overtime when anatta matures, conceptualities become no more an issue.
    [11:32 pm, 29/10/2021] John Tan: Then total exertion becomes effortless.  Whether conceptual or non-conceptual, the taste of no-self and open spaciousness remain for the practitioner.
    [11:36 pm, 29/10/2021] John Tan: Negation is always not simply negation.  There r 3 main functions:
    1.  It points to groundlessness.
    2.  It takes us right back to appearances.
    3.  It points to presence in dynamism.

 

 

 

......................

 

 

 Soh: Malcolm said:

Yes, according to the Gelukpas, Buddhas have concepts and perceptions. But this is very disputed point, and in general all the other schools disagree.

[7:42 am, 14/11/2021] John Tan: Yes because to the gelug, everything is conceptual as I told u.
[8:42 am, 14/11/2021] John Tan: Tsongkhapa's insight is very deep, profound and fully anatta.  He is so clear that he can rationalize "spontaneous presence" into stepwise refinement in terms view and praxis and developed a full systematic and rational approach towards liberation.  That is y I say that is an act of compassion rather than lack of full insight of the ultimate.

That said, over emphasis on reasoning and analysis approach in expense of the direct and esoteric approach is a major minus point also.  To understand Tsongkhapa, u need to understand his emphasis of "mere" into the conventional.  Conventional here refers to appearances -- both tainted (reified) and untainted (unreified).  Because of this, there is no need to talk about presence and awareness.
[9:08 am, 14/11/2021] John Tan: Because the conventional is treated as the root cause of ignorance by the old schools from start, Tsongkhapa saw a flaw there.  If one can see through self-nature thoroughly, does he/she need to do away with conceptualities and the conventional at all?  U have to understand Tsongkhapa is no ordinary being, a bodhisattva that is a billion times our insights and he is already well versed with the old schools' view and praxis in his early period, so it is extremely naive to make ignorance comments.

It is like Buddha teaching the 4 noble truths, 3 seals, vipassana, shamatha...If a practitioner wants to understand Tsongkhapa, he must understand from the standpoint of a buddha teaching those to open the eyes of anatta step by step to full integration without the need to sacrifice the conventional and conceptual from start.  That is y it is very easy to mis-understand Tsongkhapa.

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