• Christine Walsh

  Soh Wei Yu Consciousness AS appearances. Like the unending totality of all 6 types of sense experience combined. Breaking them down into distinct sense instances of the 6 types kept me looking in a confusion of division that is not truly there. John's chat was extremely instructive, don't know how I missed this for so long!

  

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  Soh Wei Yu

  Christine Walsh

  Have you had a recent realization of "Consciousness AS appearances" and how is it like experientially for you?

  The six types of consciousness are also provisional, but it is important in order to deconstruct the idea that consciousness is a singular and unchanging/inherently existing consciousness like brahman, some unchanging substance independent of conditions and various manifestations. The point is to point out the emptiness of inherent existence of consciousness, and also to point out dependent origination. The raft of the teachings of aggregates, six consciousness are not meant to be clung to or reified. See the sutta where Buddha scolded Bhikkhu Sati for holding substantialist view of consciousness: https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi

  Also:

  https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../misguided-man-have...

  Misguided man, have I not stated in many discourses consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness?

  Soh Wei Yu

  2m ·

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  Looks like a great book by the Dalai Lama. It even quoted the sutta I always quote. https://www.amazon.com/Realizing-Profound.../dp/B09ZBKNZB7

  Yin Ling

  23m ·

  “Because it is easy to consider consciousness with its thoughts, feelings, moods, and opinions to be the person, it is worthwhile to examine this notion more closely. The Buddha clearly states that consciousness is not the self. In the Greater Sutta on the Destruction of Craving, he calls Bhikṣu Sāti and questions him about his wrong view that the consciousness is the self. The following dialogue ensues (MN 38.5):

  (The Buddha): Sāti, is it true that the following pernicious view has arisen in you: As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another?

  (Sāti): Exactly so, Venerable Sir. As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another.

  (The Buddha): What is that consciousness, Sāti?

  (Sāti): Venerable Sir, it is that which speaks and feels and experiences here and there the “ the result of good and bad actions.

  (The Buddha): Misguided man, to whom have you ever known me to teach the Dhamma in that way? Misguided man, have I not stated in many discourses consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness?

  Sāti’s view is that consciousness exists in and of itself, independent of conditions. Saying the self is that which speaks shows the I as an agent of the action of speaking. Saying the self feels is the notion that the I is a passive subject that experiences. “Here and there” indicates the self as a transmigrator that remains unchanging as it passes through many rebirths. This consciousness or self goes from life to life, creating karma and experiencing its results, but not being transformed or changing in the process. It has an unchanging identity that remains the same as it experiences one event after another and goes from one life to the next. In short, Sāti views the consciousness as an ātman or Self.

  The commentary explains that Sāti was an expert in the Jātaka Tales, in which the Buddha recounts his previous lives, saying, “At that time, I was[…]”

  Excerpt From

  Realizing the Profound View

  Bhikṣu Tenzin Gyatso, Bhikṣuṇī Thubten Chodron

  This material may be protected by copyright.

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  Soh Wei Yu

  "Just as the Buddhas have spoken of

  "I" and "mine" for a practical purpose;

  Likewise they spoke too of "aggregates",

  "Elements" and "sense-fields" for a practical reasons.

  Such things spoken of as the "great elements",

  These are fully absorbed into consciousness;

  Since they are dissolved by understanding them,

  Are they not falsely imputed?"

  - Nagarjuna: excerpt from his 60 Stanzas

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  Soh Wei Yu

  The cognizer perceives the cognizable;

  Without the cognizable there is no cognition;

  Therefore why do you not admit

  That neither object nor subject exists [at all]?

  The mind is but a mere name;

  Apart from it's name it exists as nothing;

  So view consciousness as a mere name;

  Name too has no intrinsic nature.

  Either within or likewise without,

  Or somewhere in between the two,

  The conquerors have never found the mind;

  So the mind has the nature of an illusion.

  The distinctions of colors and shapes,

  Or that of object and subject,

  Of male, female and the neuter -

  The mind has no such fixed forms.

  In brief the Buddhas have never seen

  Nor will they ever see [such a mind];

  So how can they see it as intrinsic nature

  That which is devoid of intrinsic nature?

  "Entity" is a conceptualization;

  Absence of conceptualization is emptiness;

  Where conceptualization occurs,

  How can there be emptiness?

  The mind in terms of perceived and perceiver,

  This the Tathagatas have never seen;

  Where there is the perceived and perceiver,

  There is no enlightenment.

  Devoid of characteristics and origination,

  Devoid of substantiative reality and transcending speech,

  Space, awakening mind and enlightenment

  Posses the characteristics of non-duality.

  - Nagarjuna

  -- similar quotes in this excellent compilation of writings by Kyle Dixon https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../a-sun-that-never... , and also this is good http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../advise-from-kyle_10...

  

  AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

  A Sun That Never Sets

  A Sun That Never Sets

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  • Soh Wei Yu

    Christine Walsh Do note that even after nondual there are different degrees of subtleties in insight, like Andre described some of it in https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../beyond-awareness.html pretty well

    

    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

    Beyond Awareness: reflections on identity and awareness

    Beyond Awareness: reflections on identity and awareness

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Mr. J asked, “ I think I’m just wondering in regard to this then like… does ignorance just happen dependent on conditions if it’s beginningless? 

Meaning “samsara” is something that the mind can sort of “fall into” depending on conditions even if it was in “nirvana” at some point, and then “samsara” before that too?”

Soh replied,

“ No, nirvana is not reversible. Nobody was in nirvana before samsara

Samsara had no beginning

See what kyle dixon wrote before:

“One of the characteristics of nirvana (and all unconditioned dharmas) is that it is "permanent" because it is defined as a total cessation of cause for rebirth in the three realms. Since there is no possibility of cause for "re-arising" nirvana is said to be "permanent".

As I wrote before on here:

Buddhahood is irreversible and permanent. Nirvāṇa is the total exhaustion of one's ignorance regarding the nature of phenomena, and for that reason nirvāṇa is described as a cessation. What ceases is the cause for the further arising and proliferation of delusion regarding the nature of phenomena, which is precisely the cessation of cause for the arising of the cyclical round of rebirth in the three realms we call "saṃsāra."

For this reason, nirvāṇa is said to be 'permanent', because due to the exhaustion of cause for the further proliferation of saṃsāra, saṃsāra no longer has any way to arise.

Tsele Natsok Rangdrol:

You might ask, 'Why wouldn't confusion reoccur as before, after... [liberation has occured]?" This is because no basis [foundation] exists for its re-arising. Samantabhadra's liberation into the basis [wisdom] itself and the yogi liberated through practicing the path are both devoid of any basis [foundation] for reverting back to becoming a cause, just like a person who has recovered from a plague or the fruit of the se tree.

He then states that the se tree is a particular tree which is poisonous to touch, causing blisters and swelling. However once recovered, one is then immune.

Lopon Tenzin Namdak also explains this principle of immunity:

Anyone who follows the teachings of the Buddhas will most likely attain results and purify negative karmic causes. Then that person will be like a man who has caught smallpox in the past; he will never catch it again because he is immune. The sickness of samsara will never come back. And this is the purpose of following the teachings.

and from Lopon Kunga Namdrol:

Buddhahood is a subtractive process; it means removing, gradually, obscurations of affliction and obscurations of knowledge. Since wisdom burns these obscurations away, in the end they have no causes for returning; and further, the causes for buddhahood are permanent leading to a permanent result.”

………

Yes and you remove afflictions and ignorance that causes cyclic rebirth through wisdom

"The process of eradicating avidyā (ignorance) is conceived… not as a mere stopping of thought， but as the active realization of the opposite of what ignorance misconceives. Avidyā is not a mere absence of knowledge， but a specific misconception， and it must be removed by realization of its opposite. In this vein， Tsongkhapa says that one cannot get rid of the misconception of 'inherent existence' merely by stopping conceptuality any more than one can get rid of the idea that there is a demon in a darkened cave merely by trying not to think about it. Just as one must hold a lamp and see that there is no demon there， so the illumination of wisdom is needed to clear away the darkness of ignorance."

Napper， Elizabeth， 2003， p. 103"

Nirvana is the permanent ending of ignorance and other mental afflictions that comes with it

…

Mr J: “ And then it’s like keeping up with the wisdom and skillful means like you’re at the gym or practicing guitar to maintain it, hence the effort part”

Soh:

“ You practice the path of wisdom and meditation until all traces of the two obscurations are absolutely exhausted. At which point you are a Buddha, which none of us here are (we are still very much on the path despite insights and all those I have witnessed that claims to be Buddha are seriously deluded individuals) and you do not need to practice to maintain or improve anything.

And even the Buddha spends months in forest retreats practicing anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing) meditation every year, he still meditates everyday and so on because he explained it is a pleasant abiding and he is compassionate for future generations (setting a good example for them).

Until then, we need to continue practicing diligently to progress along the path to Buddhahood.

See Jamgon Mipham’s explanations:

"PATHS TO ENLIGHTENMENT

What follows is a short explanation of the way Mipam presents the structure of the Buddhist path to awakening. According to him, we can only go so far in the Lesser Vehicle, realizing the lack of a personal self based on its path, but without the Great Vehicle, we will not come to fully realize the lack of self (that is, emptiness) with respect to all phenomena. In other words, those in the Lesser Vehicle realize only part of emptiness (the lack of a personal self) but do not realize the entire scope of emptiness. They hang on to an ultimate foundation of reality (the fundamental elements of reality, or dharmas), whereas there is actually no such foundation. Therefore, according to Mipam, one cannot become a buddha based solely on the Lesser Vehicle path; becoming a buddha is the result of the Great Vehicle. Nevertheless, realizing the lack of a personal self is enough to free us from samsara, because in doing so, we relinquish the obscurations of the afflictive emotions. The afflictive emotions can be included within the “three poisons” of attachment, aversion, and delusion.

These afflictive obscurations function to prevent liberation, and they are tied in with the apprehension of a personal self. Based on the notion of such a self, we become attached (to me and mine) and averse (to what is other). This notion of self keeps the wheel of samsara rolling, because it perpetuates the distorted framework through which we selfishly act out attachment and aversion, thus sowing the seeds of suffering. Afflictive obscurations have two aspects: a gross, imputed aspect and a more subtle, innate aspect. According to Mipam, the imputed aspects are relinquished on the first “ground” (Tib. sa, Skt. bhūmi) when you directly perceive the suchness of reality. This experiential realization is called “the path of seeing.”

The imputed aspects of the afflictive obscurations are learned and not inborn like the innate aspects. Imputed aspects involve distortions that are explicitly conceptual, as opposed to the perceptual distortions that comprise the innate aspects. The difference between the imputed and innate aspects can be understood as something like the difference between software and hardware: the innate aspects are embedded more deeply in one’s mind-stream and are thus more difficult to eliminate. Imputed ego-clinging refers to imputing qualities to the self that are not there—namely, apprehending the self as a singular, permanent, and independent entity. This is overcome on the first bodhisattva ground in a direct, nonconceptual experience of reality that is the culminating insight of analysis. Nevertheless, the more subtle, innate aspect of ego-clinging hangs on.

The innate ego-clinging, as the bare sense of self that is imputed on the basis of the five aggregates, is more difficult to remove. Rather than construing qualities to the self such as singularity or permanence, it is a more subtle feeling of simply “I am” when, for instance, we wake up in the morning. This innate sense of self is a deeply rooted, instinctual habit. It thus involves more than just imputed identity; it is a deeper experiential orientation of distorted subjectivity. Although analysis into the nature of the self paves the way for it to be overcome, it cannot fall away by analysis alone. Rather, it has to be relinquished through cultivating the path of meditation. According to Mipam, there are no innate aspects of the afflictive obscurations left on the eighth ground. However, the afflictive emotions are only one of two types of obscurations, the other being cognitive obscurations.

Cognitive obscurations are nothing less than conceptuality: the threefold conceptualization of agent, object, and action. Conceptuality is tied in to apprehending a self of phenomena, which includes mistaking phenomena as real, objectifying phenomena, and simply perceiving dualistically. Such conceptualization serves to obstruct omniscience. Based on the Great Vehicle, these cognitive obscurations can be completely relinquished; thereby, the result of the Great Vehicle path culminates in not merely escaping samsara, as in the Lesser Vehicle, but in becoming an omniscient buddha. According to Mipam, up to the seventh ground, the realization (of the twofold selflessness) and abandonment (of the twofold obscurations) are the same in the Great and Lesser Vehicles.

As with the Great Vehicle, he maintains that accomplishing the path of the Lesser Vehicle entails the realization of the selflessness of phenomena, to see that phenomena are empty. Those who accomplish the Lesser Vehicle path also realize the selflessness of phenomena, because their realization of emptiness with respect to a person is one instance of realizing the emptiness of phenomena. The final realization of the Lesser Vehicle path, however, is incomplete. Mipam compares it to taking a small gulp of the water of the ocean: we can say that those who realize emptiness in the Lesser Vehicle have drunk the water of the ocean, just not all of it.150 The final realization of the bodhisattva’s path in the Great Vehicle, however, is the full realization of emptiness, like drinking the entire ocean.

- Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings"