John Tan
    Om1hc24tt11oSber 28 00at t4i5612:3so7 P1arfeMd  ·
    I wonder why I can't find any article on the internet comparing Dogen's and Tsongkhapa's thoughts.
    If both masters were to meet to discuss their practice philosophies of "mere existence" and total exertion, a gem masterpiece on non-dual epistemology of the 3 times will surely emerge.
    I maybe completely wrong 🤣 but if anyone can find any article linking both of their thoughts, pls leave a note here.
    43 Comments

    Liu Zhi Guan
    No fan of Gorampa?🤔
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    John Tan
    Gorampa is more on the exhaustion of the conventional into freedom from all elaborations. I classified it under the -A of emptiness in ATR context.
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    Liu Zhi Guan
    John Tan I see,though afaik Gorampa's presentation of Madhyamika adheres more to the original Nagarjuna's Madhyamika, whereas Gelug or prasangika Madhyamika is more of Tibetan formulation by Tsongkhapa

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    John Tan
    Liu Zhi Guan True in certain sense but Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka also evolved over time from India toTibet before it became the present day Prasangika Madhyamaka. So imo we should also not undermine the creativity and insights of Tsongkhapa.
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    Liu Zhi Guan
    John Tan I concur. Tsongkhapa was certainly a great Buddhist meditator and scholar.
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    Liu Zhi Guan
    John Tan one question I have in mind:Is the purpose of koan to achieve the exhaustion of the conventional into freedom from all elaborations,albeit with different approach from Madhyamika?

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    John Tan
    Liu Zhi Guan Zen koans relate more to the direct pointing of one's radiance clarity whereas mmk is abt letting the mind sees it's own fabrications and allowing it to free itself from all elaborations (non Gelug) or free itself from all fabrications (Gelug). The most crucial insight of both Gelug and non Gelug (imo) is to let the mind realizes the primordial purity (emptiness) nature of both mind/phenomena.
    Although Mipham treated gelug's freedom from self nature as categorized ultimate, I can only tell u I disagree. Both are able to achieve their objectives (imo). In fact if u were to ask for my sincere opinion, I prefer freedom from self nature (Gelug) as if understood properly and with experiential insight, it will lead to both +A and -A of emptiness.
    If we were to treat the conventional (conceptuality) as the cause of ignorance, it prevents some very valuable insights that will take probably a lot of time to detail out. I will not go too detail into that.
    In short seeing through intrinsic existence will similarly allow practitioners to see through conceptual constructs (non-conceptualities), see through duality (non-dual) and substantiality (essencelessness). Phenomena lack of self-nature also lacks sameness or difference, therefore their primordially purity will likewise be realized and selflessness also results in natural spontaneity; yet because practitioners put freedom from self-nature at a higher order, they will not be bounded by either conceptualities or non-conceptualities and are free to explore both.
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    Liu Zhi Guan
    John Tan I see,perhaps what I had in mind earlier was actually huatou,which afaik is meant to break mental profilerations?
    Also may you elaborate on the diff btw free from all elaboration and fabrications? Is it that the former break all forms of conceptualities to realize the ineffable state,while the latter still allows for conceptualities but utilizes it to break conceptualities itself?

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    John Tan
    Liu Zhi Guan Huatou does not actually "break" as in "seeing through" mental proliferations imo but it does immobilizes the conceptual mind and allows a sudden leap from the conceptual into the non-conceptual where one authenticates the original face directly. Realising how one's mind proliferates is different from realizing our original face.
    U can take freedom from all elaborations as freedom from conceptualities and free from fabrications as freedom from superimposing self-nature/intrinsic existence on mind/phenomena.
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    Edmond Cigale
    Now that would be an interesting discussion for sure. A tantric and a zen master...
    👍👍
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    John Tan
    Edmond Cigale indeed. 👍 But definitely beyond me. I just hope there r articles abt it.
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    Edmond Cigale
    John Robert Thurman is a great scholar and writes about Je Tsongkhapa. He does write (or talk) about Mahayana, maybe about zen as well...
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    John Tan
    Edmond Cigale Definitely will be interesting if he publishes a book on them since he is so well-versed in Zen and Tsongkhapa's philosophy.👍
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    Edmond Cigale
    John write him.
    🙂
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    John Tan
    Edmond Cigale lol..
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    Michael Hernandez
    John Tan I'll write him. I've written to presidents, house speakers ECT.
    What exactly would you want me to ask?
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    Edmond Cigale
    Michael very good!
    Actually, I wasn't joking. It would be worth while exploring the topics, especially with your empirical background, John.
    👍👍
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    Michael Hernandez
    Edmond Cigale
    Yes, I'm not joking either.
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    Edmond Cigale
    Michael 👍👍👍

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    John Tan
    Michael Hernandez sorry let me finish my candy crush first. Too many rewards.😁🤣
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    Michael Hernandez
    Edmond Cigale I wrote President Trump in the spring around 2017 advising him to take action on North Korea.
    However the action taken wasn't what I had in mind.
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    John Tan
    Michael Hernandez Actually nothing in particular...lol. I believe u know ATR well and probably about the +A and -A version of emptiness in ATR.
    To me, Gorampa and Mipham are more on exhaustion of the conventional into freedom from all elaborations. I classify it under the -A of emptiness in ATR context.
    Tsongkhapa on the other hand embraced the conventional wholeheartedly into freedom from all fabrications (fabrication as in attachment to intrinsic existence). I classify it under the +A of emptiness in ATR context. This is very similar to Dogen's total exertion.
    Ippo-gujin (total exertion), I will define here as wholehearted engagement in the mundane activities of everydayness of everyday, essentially no different from bahiya sutta of in the seen just the seen. In this actualisation, entire "body mind environment universe" is one participation without any need to subsume into an all encompassing substantial non-dual awareness; instead all conventional diversities are fully intact yet miraculously involved in a harmonious unity.
    When I read Tsongkhapa's thought somehow I can relate quite easily with my ATR background, from his "one nature different isolates" to "mere existence" to non-dual espistemology via just simply focusing on understanding "lack of intrinsic existence" thoroughly.
    Dogen's total exertion is the mystical and zen-ish approach of epistemic non-dual and often presented in a cryptic manner 😁 whereas Tsongkhapa's is the rational, logical and systematic way towards epistemic non-dual. I think they make good complements. Unfortunately I know too little of Tsongkhapa's tantric teachings to understand how his views are being integrated into his tantric practices.
    Robert Thurman came to my mind when Edmond Cigale mentioned about him. Since he was the Je Tsongkhapa Professor of Indo-Tibetan Buddhist Studies at Columbia University and once commented that Dogen's Zen is very tantric. I think it will be interesting if he has an article on it. In case u write to him, pls don't mention abt ATR, Soh Wei Yu will create havoc out of it.🤣
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    Michael Hernandez
    John Tan there are a number of books that on commentaries on Tsongkhapa's Six Yogas of Naropa from Gelupa view.
    I've never read them.
    "Tantra" if course is an interesting word. We can define and categorize it the historical sense or as you indicated more in a broad spiritual sense experience from other mystic zennish traditions.
    In this sense is there a difference between the Indian yogi living in a cave or an ancient practitioner of chan living in a cave?
    In Jodo Shinshu Amida Buddha "becomes me".
    Completely misunderstood even by most practitioner of Jodo Shinshu who do not understand the Name is the Buddha they believe the Buddha is out there someplace. No. Amida Buddha IS the Name not something said to get to a Pure Land. Misunderstood because this Buddha is not a Buddha until all else are first.
    It is said that one does not become Amida Buddha but "Amida Buddha becomes me".
    That the sound of "AH" was of particular importance.
    So much so that Japanese esoteric Buddhism placed this practice very highly. While Japanese esoteric Buddhism never developed a Dzogchen/Mahamudra like practice they did have something like the generation and completion practices.
    Certainly Zen might be the next "extension" or "expansion" in practice after the completion phase. The way Zen is being practiced as in some American Jodo Shinshu certainly.
    Tantra would though have an element of utilizing visualization in any cultural practice. We might call voodoo Tantric or even some witch craft. However if I draw an imaginary line in the sand I would have to say the goal needs to be (A) "expansion" towards an infinite unlimited ultimate "ineffable" rather than (😎 contraction toward a narrowly defined conventional designation i.e "money", "love" or "revenge".
    Nowadays in India however any tantra is indeed pointed towards the conventionally mundane as "black magic".
    #1 How is Zen like or unlike Tantra?
    Or # 2 are some Zen practices tantric like in nature?
    (I've read it argued Zen is nothing like Dzogchen/Mahamudra. Well certainly the explicit meaning of the word Zen as transliteration of dhyana wouldn't be for sure.
    However when we refer to the ineffability of so named "Buddha Nature" exactly to designate conventional nature would not then make that experience "ineffable" ultimate but like more as Tsongkhapa?)
    So I would if you could John or Edmond Cigale, have the quote from Robert Thurman about Dogen's Zen being very tantric?
    This way I can ask him directly how his meaning this was from the quotation and place and date he quoted it.
    He might not recall exactly without a prompt.
    I can let you proofread the letter first to add or correct any errors.
    Thanks
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    Tyler Jones
    John Tan Jay Garfield comes to my mind, he is very versed in cross-cultural philosophical dialogue, sees connections that others don't, and is an expert on Tsongkhapa, not sure if he knows about Dogen specifically though.
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    Tyler Jones
    Probably easier to get ahold of Garfield than Thurman 😅.
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    Michael Hernandez
    John Tan Edmond Cigale
    Here's the quote and possibly the answer. The entire article is of interest really in context with your conventional question.
    If we play out the imagination as the Tantric vehicle the as how Robert Thurman puts it then as he says earlier in the interview about zen:
    "RT: In a literal sense, yes. However, I think Zen is very tantric. Take Dogen’s Zen, a practice which says that when you sit you are Buddha. You don’t meditate as a “means-end” practice of trying to attain a buddhahood which is remote from you in time and space. When you sit, you are Buddha. And if you don’t happen to feel like Buddha that’s just a bad habit which you have to pierce or break through.
    IM: So tantra is really a creation and projection of a purified state of mind.
    RT: That’s right. Tantric initiation is an opening of imaginative space where you have a vision of potential perfection. You may still feel like a “schmo,” but that’s the dynamic tension. Your habitual imagination of yourself as an unenlightened schmo is brought into tension with an artificially constructed imagination of yourself as a perfected being."
    https://www.inquiringmind.com/article/0801_01_thurman/
    Interview with Robert A. F. Thurman: Talking Tantra - Inquiring Mind
    INQUIRINGMIND.COM
    Interview with Robert A. F. Thurman: Talking Tantra - Inquiring Mind
    Interview with Robert A. F. Thurman: Talking Tantra - Inquiring Mind
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    Michael Hernandez
    In Jodo Shinshu "Amida Buddha becomes me just as I am" i.e a foolish ordinary person "bombu"

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    John Tan
    Tyler Jones Oh yes! Jay Garfield without doubt will be another one. He too is very well versed with both Dogen's and Tsongkhapa's philosophies.

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    John Tan
    Michael Hernandez As Tyler Jones suggested, Jay Garfield is another scholar that is well equipped with both masters' philosophies.
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    John Tan
    Michael Hernandez also when u asked, remember it is not about "Zen and Tantra" but "Dogen and Tsongkhapa"😆. The reason is both r based on essencelessness and embracement of the conventional, therefore buddha nature is a buddha nature in ceaseless dynamism, in a matrix of diversities that interpenetrates.
    I have "Tsongkhapa's Six Yoga's of Naropa" in my collection but Robert Thurman "Brilliantly Illuminating the Lamp of the Five Stages" is a better read if we not into the actual practice of tantra (imo) but a great book if u want to know about Tsongkhapa's trantric experiences and achievements.
    Ok back to sleep Zzzzz😁.
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    Tyler Jones
    It's quite possible that no one has seen the potential benefit of such a comparison/exchange. On the surface they would seem quite alien to each other for sectarian reasons, eg. Tsongkhapa's view of Chan. Also, how widely appreciated is it that Dogen is one of very few famous Chan/Zen masters with a non-substaintialist view?
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    Tyler Jones
    Even to make such a distinction is rare in comments on Zen writings.

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    John Tan
    Tyler Jones that is true too, just my wild wish as I like both masters.

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    Tyler Jones
    Have you seen any East Asian masters with as strong of a potential dialogue with Tsongkhapa as Dogen, for instance from the Huayan or Tiantai traditions?

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    Tyler Jones
    Also, maybe you could entice some scholars into taking up such a dialogue if you first published an MMK commentary 😄.
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    John Tan
    Tyler Jones modern one yes like Hong Wen Liang or Hui Lui but rare. Many masters I read will present with cetain scent of substantialist non-dual even ancient masters of Huayan or Tiantai. There is nothing wrong with it but seldom do I see masters like Tsongkhapa and Dogen. But my respect for these 2 masters goes beyond just their philosophies, I feel "connected"🤣. Anyway I do not want to talk about it.
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    John Tan
    Tyler Jones pls, I m way out of the league. 😓

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    André A. Pais
    Jay Garfield indeed is an educated gelugpa with a seemingly zen practice running on the side. At least that's what it sounded like from some in-between the lines comments in his series of videos on yogacara.
    Anyway, he does have an article called Mountains are just Mountains, in a book called Pointing at the Moon - all zen references. I haven't read the book nor the article, but I'll put some sections here:
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    André A. Pais
    May be an image of text that says '6 Mountains Are Just Mountains Jay L. Garfield Graham Priest Before studied mountains After studying mountains, water longer mountains and vater Nagărjuna just vater.' Catușkoți both. proposition philosophy Aristotle, ofequally possibilities. traditional viewi ancestry,is ony). catușkoți. deployed catușkoți Nagărjuna famously ways. 11fou the Everythingis real and not not Neither unreal real. Buddha's teaching. POINTING The second negative. such cases, Thus, argues none four that rgues none four hold. applies the proposition "empty." They nor only for purpose fdesignation.? standardly, common the four possibilities the supposed Nagărjuna's prima facie. positive applied reality, thecontradictions various possibilities need disambiguatedwith'

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    André A. Pais
    May be an image of text

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    André A. Pais
    May be an image of text that says '69% Pointing the 76 POINTING THE MOON More emptiness. does from (This why Dögen can insist that practice chapter. Prior world; awaken most helpfully the that dently that inspired water- ssubstantially existent, independent things those Some impermanent. ontologically indepen- analysis, however, shows these phenomena andt fail things mately. Were one while error would would with he stop both his deprecate mountains Hence, mountains and be just from them therefore the two identity forming the existence as apprehension trans We connect dialectic and mans each catuş™koÈis semantic lattice (figure represents Zen dialectic. language, (represented (such the the squiggly truth values'

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    André A. Pais
    No photo description available.

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    André A. Pais
    May be an image of text that says 'Cogent Inconsistency isght puzzlinga assertion wac practice But practice initially Buddhist philosophy, And disparaged Madhyamaka despite knowh merely following Nagărjuna apprehends ignorance primor- things that fifth made positive system most external, dentification emptiness negation. POINTING THE extent, vindicated Hakuin's account identity dattainment xplained ox-herding that mountains mountains could eybe?'

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    ...........

Soh:


Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:09 am
Well, actually the I-making habit, the basic knowledge obscuration, has no real existence as a self, but it functions as an agent of karma and a recipient of karma, so there is that, even though the "I" it imputes does not exist at all.

...
No, it is an imagined, nonexistent self that causes and experiences everything, for example, when a car is in accident, it is the imagined car for which one pays the damages, not the wrong view of the imagined car. But perhaps this is a special point of Candrakīrti's Madhyamaka, unlikely to be found the Visuddhimagga.

John Tan:
This part was explained by Tsongkhapa why nominality can have causal efficacy

Soh:

oic..
in fact all assertions of causal efficacy is based on nominality isnt it


John Tan:
Yes as well as all functionalities just like fiat money facilitates international trade and international financial system but they can cause countries to collapse even though fiat money has only nominal existence.



I wonder why I can't find any article on the internet comparing Dogen's and Tsongkhapa's thoughts.

If both masters were to meet to discuss their practice philosophies of "mere existence" and total exertion, a gem masterpiece on non-dual epistemology of the 3 times will surely emerge.

I maybe completely wrong 🤣 but if anyone can find any article linking both their thoughts, pls leave a note here.

Soh:

Oic.. saw your msg
I think dogen is more experiential and anatta, and you said tsongkhapa more on view?


[2:15 pm, 28/10/2021] John Tan: U can say so but their view are the same abt +A of emptiness.  Though I find Tsongkhapa more rational in his approach whereas dogen is more poetic, intuitive and experiential carries +A much further.
[2:17 pm, 28/10/2021] John Tan: However it is not easy to present +A in such a rational and systematic way like Tsongkhapa did.
[2:21 pm, 28/10/2021] John Tan: Who is liu Zhi Guan?  Change name?

Soh:
Oic..
I dunno him seems like a singaporean

John Tan:

    Michael Hernandez Actually nothing in particular...lol.  I believe u know ATR well and probably about the +A and -A version of emptiness in ATR.

    To me, Gorampa and Mipham are more on exhaustion of the conventional into freedom from all elaborations. I classify it under the -A of emptiness in ATR context.

    Tsongkhapa on the other hand embraced the conventional wholeheartedly into freedom from all fabrications (fabrication as in attachment to intrinsic existence).  I classify it under the +A of emptiness in ATR context.  This is very similar to Dogen's total exertion.  

    Ippo-gujin (total exertion),  I will define here as wholehearted engagement in the mundane activities of everydayness of everyday, essentially no different from bahiya sutta of in the seen just the seen.  In this actualisation, entire "body mind environment universe" is one participation without any need to subsume into an all encompassing substantial non-dual awareness; instead all conventional diversities are fully intact yet miraculously involved in a harmonious unity.

    When I read Tsongkhapa's thought somehow I can relate quite easily with my ATR background, from his "one nature different isolates" to "mere existence" to non-dual espistemology via just simply focusing on understanding "intrinsic existence" thoroughly.

    Dogen's total exertion is the mystical and zen-ish approach of epistemic non-dual and often presented in a cryptic manner 😁 whereas Tsongkhapa's is the rational, logical and systematic way towards epistemic non-dual.  I think they make good complements.  Unfortunately I know too little of Tsongkhapa's tantric teachings to understand how his views are being integrated into his tantric practices.  

    Robert Thurman came to my mind when Edmond Cigale  mentioned about him.  Since he was the Je Tsongkhapa Professor of Indo-Tibetan Buddhist Studies at Columbia Universits and once commented that Dogen's Zen is very tantric, I think it will be interesting if he has an article on it.  In case u write to him, pls don't mention abt ATR, Soh Wei Yu will create havoc out of it.🤣

    Liu Zhi Guan Zen koans relate more to the direct pointing of one's radiance clarity whereas mmk is abt letting the mind sees it's own fabrications and allowing it to free itself from all elaborations (non Gelug) or free itself from all fabrications (Gelug).  The most crucial insight of both Gelug and non Gelug (imo) is to let the mind realizes the primordial purity (emptiness) nature of both mind/phenomena.

    Although Mipham treated gelug's freedom from self nature as categorized ultimate, I can only tell u I disagree. Both are able to achieve their objectives (imo).  In fact if u were to ask for my sincere opinion, I prefer freedom from self nature (Gelug) as if understood properly and with experiential insight, it will lead to both +A and -A of emptiness.

    If we were to treat the conventional  (conceptuality)  as the cause of ignorance, it prevents some very valuable insights that will take probably a lot of time to detail out.  I will not go too detail into that.  

    In short seeing through intrinsic existence will similarly allow practitioners to see through conceptual constructs (non-conceptualities), see through duality (non-dual) and substantiality (essencelessness).  Phenomena lack of self-nature also lacks sameness or difference, therefore their primordially purity will likewise be realized and selflessness also results in natural spontaneity; yet because practitioners put freedom from self-nature at a higher order, they will not be bounded by conceptualities and can embrace the conventional fully.
    Soh:
    Oic..
    Yeah like even my initial insight into anatta i would say is more of seeing through intrinsic existence. Non conceptuality is more like side effect
    [11:16 pm, 29/10/2021] John Tan: Yes
    [11:19 pm, 29/10/2021] John Tan: ATR insight is seeing through self nature except the praxis as in way of practice is direct approach via vipassana -- special insight.  The seeing through of self as a background is not through analysis.
    Soh: Oic.. thrangu rinpoche also said thats the diff between mahamudra and madhyamika
    [11:20 pm, 29/10/2021] John Tan: When that is seen through, one becomes effortlessly non-dual in experience as there is no subject to "dual".
    [11:22 pm, 29/10/2021] John Tan: Both essencelessness and non-dual dawn in a single leap but that doesn't mean one has thoroughly eradicated proliferation.  Hence mmk helps to do that.
    [11:24 pm, 29/10/2021] John Tan: So it is not about doing away with conceptualities but a special insight that sees through self nature.

    Post anatta and when we keep refining our view and eradicate proliferations, we will realize the supreme purity that free both poles of dualities.  That is not simply a collapse of subject-object duality, but a freedom from all dualities.  This too can be realized through contemplating freedom from self nature.  Experiences do turn non-conceptual but that is simply a by-product that comes along with the arising Prajna.  Overtime when anatta matures, conceptualities become no more an issue.
    [11:32 pm, 29/10/2021] John Tan: Then total exertion becomes effortless.  Whether conceptual or non-conceptual, the taste of no-self and open spaciousness remain for the practitioner.
    [11:36 pm, 29/10/2021] John Tan: Negation is always not simply negation.  There r 3 main functions:
    1.  It points to groundlessness.
    2.  It takes us right back to appearances.
    3.  It points to presence in dynamism.

 

 

 

......................

 

 

 Soh: Malcolm said:

Yes, according to the Gelukpas, Buddhas have concepts and perceptions. But this is very disputed point, and in general all the other schools disagree.

[7:42 am, 14/11/2021] John Tan: Yes because to the gelug, everything is conceptual as I told u.
[8:42 am, 14/11/2021] John Tan: Tsongkhapa's insight is very deep, profound and fully anatta.  He is so clear that he can rationalize "spontaneous presence" into stepwise refinement in terms view and praxis and developed a full systematic and rational approach towards liberation.  That is y I say that is an act of compassion rather than lack of full insight of the ultimate.

That said, over emphasis on reasoning and analysis approach in expense of the direct and esoteric approach is a major minus point also.  To understand Tsongkhapa, u need to understand his emphasis of "mere" into the conventional.  Conventional here refers to appearances -- both tainted (reified) and untainted (unreified).  Because of this, there is no need to talk about presence and awareness.
[9:08 am, 14/11/2021] John Tan: Because the conventional is treated as the root cause of ignorance by the old schools from start, Tsongkhapa saw a flaw there.  If one can see through self-nature thoroughly, does he/she need to do away with conceptualities and the conventional at all?  U have to understand Tsongkhapa is no ordinary being, a bodhisattva that is a billion times our insights and he is already well versed with the old schools' view and praxis in his early period, so it is extremely naive to make ignorance comments.

It is like Buddha teaching the 4 noble truths, 3 seals, vipassana, shamatha...If a practitioner wants to understand Tsongkhapa, he must understand from the standpoint of a buddha teaching those to open the eyes of anatta step by step to full integration without the need to sacrifice the conventional and conceptual from start.  That is y it is very easy to mis-understand Tsongkhapa.

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