Also see: The Disease of Non-Conceptuality
[10:43 PM, 6/6/2020] John Tan: There are two folds to it. Any view is ultimately empty... But freeing one from constructs and conceptualization has a different meaning to me. Like when see through self, we realized anatta. It is not the freeing, but must also involves the arising insight and wisdom.
I think I mentioned I am not into without view. The freeing from seeing through self is not a form of "not knowing", contrary it is deep wisdom that allows one to understand our nature directly.”
John Tan and I are "against" "don't know mind". In fact usually it refers to a state of marigpa (ignorance) called the indeterminancy of alaya. (see next post)
[14/5/18, 9:56:36 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Anyway she asked dae Kwang who let’s go
[14/5/18, 9:57:07 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Dae Kwang said precisely, he ask her back I think she said don’t know then he say correct, even Buddha’s don’t know, this don’t know is Buddha nature
[14/5/18, 9:57:22 AM] John Tan: Nonsense
[14/5/18, 9:57:42 AM] Soh Wei Yu: What nonsense?
[14/5/18, 9:58:01 AM] John Tan: Such half past six answers is not zen
[14/5/18, 9:58:08 AM] John Tan: Degraded
[14/5/18, 9:58:22 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oh but also he say
[14/5/18, 9:58:29 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Heart Sutra no eyes no nose no... etc
[14/5/18, 9:58:35 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Then he ask what is no eyes
[14/5/18, 9:58:48 AM] Soh Wei Yu: He ask someone he doesn’t know
[14/5/18, 9:58:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: He say wall is white
[14/5/18, 9:59:46 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Seung sahn always emphasise don’t know
[14/5/18, 9:59:50 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I think it’s just non conceptuality
[14/5/18, 9:59:55 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I mean the don’t know part
[14/5/18, 9:59:57 AM] John Tan: I know
[14/5/18, 10:00:29 AM] John Tan: This is a disease rather than wisdom
[14/5/18, 10:01:44 AM] John Tan: What "don't know" points to is "non-conceptual" functioning.
[14/5/18, 10:03:30 AM] John Tan: Lack of investigation and stable insights we will not be able to distinguish stable insights of non-conceptual functioning from "conceptual releasing".
[14/5/18, 10:04:20 AM] John Tan: Originally I wanted to tell tan jui Hong but dun want to talk too much.
[14/5/18, 10:05:11 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[14/5/18, 10:05:35 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I think u shld tell jui.. anyway jui has realised anatta I think might be into total exertion but not sure
[14/5/18, 10:06:15 AM] John Tan: Next time
[14/5/18, 10:06:21 AM] John Tan: Is he Singaporean
[14/5/18, 10:09:06 AM] John Tan: Freeing from reified constructs is a whole new world of practice. That is "don't know mind" starts from there.
[14/5/18, 10:14:26 AM] Soh Wei Yu: U mean jui?
[14/5/18, 10:14:31 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ya jui is singaporean, u met before
[14/5/18, 10:14:37 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[14/5/18, 10:14:37 AM] John Tan: Yes
[14/5/18, 10:14:40 AM] John Tan: Ic
[14/5/18, 10:23:21 AM] John Tan: Also understanding reified constructs and experiencing reified constructs in oneself is the most crucial aspect.
[14/5/18, 10:24:31 AM] John Tan: That is the first part of an anatta is key to understanding grasping.
[14/5/18, 10:25:25 AM] John Tan: Only when we understand constructs and reification, can we understand grasping.
[14/5/18, 10:27:23 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[14/5/18, 10:27:49 AM] John Tan: So understanding mental constructs r very imp
[14/5/18, 10:28:11 AM] John Tan: That includes the energy and mind-body reactions
[14/5/18, 10:32:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[14/5/18, 10:46:32 AM] Soh Wei Yu: image omitted
[14/5/18, 10:46:43 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Overemphasize non conceptual I think
[14/5/18, 10:48:17 AM] John Tan: That is lack of insight and investigation
[14/5/18, 10:49:16 AM] John Tan: Means due to lack of working with conceptual mind, the "reasons" and the "way" isn't appropriately expressed
[14/5/18, 10:49:33 AM] John Tan: There is the beauty of mathematics
[14/5/18, 10:49:59 AM] John Tan: Like calculus to understand complex movement and rate of change
[14/5/18, 10:51:03 AM] John Tan: There is glendin that can express total exertion and anatta properly.
[14/5/18, 10:51:52 AM] John Tan: There r energies, prana, awareness teachings of functionality not due to "conceptualities"
[14/5/18, 10:54:06 AM] John Tan: What just "don't know mind". By doing that, he has caused confusion in himself and others due to lack of investigation. The way of non-conceptual function is not to be solved by mind.
[14/5/18, 11:13:12 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. not to be solved by the mind but by what way?
[14/5/18, 11:15:23 AM] John Tan: By the "don't know mind" they r talking
[14/5/18, 11:15:37 AM] John Tan: The problem is they do not know
[14/5/18, 11:15:39 AM] John Tan: Lol
On how "Don't Know Mind" is actually a state of ma-rigpa (or at most the coarse form of unripened rigpa), Mipham Rinpoche puts it nicely:
quote: "In this, there is not any of the clear insight of vipaśyanā, which discerns things precisely, and so the masters call it marigpa (“non-recognition, ignorance, unknowing”). Since you cannot define it and say “This is what it’s like”, or “This is it!” such a state is called lungmaten (“undecided, indeterminate”). And since you cannot say what kind of state it is you are resting in, or what your mind is thinking, it is also called tha mal tang nyom (“an ordinary state of apathetic indifference”). In fact, you are stuck in an ordinary state within the ālaya."
Contra rigpa (knowledge): "Although there is no dualistic separation here between an experience and an experiencer, still the mind is certain about its own true nature, and there is a sense that, “There is nothing whatsoever beyond this.” When this occurs, because you can not conceptualize it or express it in words, it is acceptable to apply such terms as: “free from all extremes”, “beyond description”, “the fundamental state of clear light” and “the pure awareness of rigpa.”
As the wisdom of recognizing your own true nature dawns, it clears away the blinding darkness of confusion, and, just as you can see clearly the inside of your home once the sun has risen, you gain confident certainty in the true nature of your mind."
And likewise, Tsoknyi Rinpoche and many other teachers pointed out that rigpa is marked by certainty. I have said likewise in my journal.
"First, acknowledging it is called recognizing one's nature. Next, we must be decisive about what is recognized. This is more complicated, because who really decides? Is it conceptual mind that settles it? Or is it rigpa itself that decides? or is it your teacher who makes up your mind - "The guru said so, so it must be true"? Or will modern technology validate it for you? Could you go to the Rigpa Lab and check your heart and brain with instruments to decide if your rigpa is fine and fit, if your nonduality is in good shape?
How do you resolve this point? It may be tough to have to immediately endorse your own experience, but we can decide upon it if we feel even 60 percent confident that it's actually rigpa. As the basis for verifying, we use our teacher's words, the words of an authentic scripture, and our own experience. When our state of experiencing rigpa really is rigpa, there is within that an automatic feeling of certainty. To arrive at that certainty you need to give some time to the process, and you also need to have passion. There is a point at which the certainty is built-in, automatic certainty. Once we get to this natural, unshakable certainty, we feel so sure that even if the Buddha himself came before us and said, "Hey, you're wrong, it's not rigpa!" we would thank him for coming, but it would not change our certainty at all. At a certain point the qualities of empty essence, cognizant nature, and unconfined capacity become so utterly obvious that we really know. At this point, we have gained the certainty that whatever occurs in our minds can be freed by itself."
- Tsoknyi Rinpoche, Fearless Simplicity: The Dzogchen Way of Living Freely in a Complex World
Labels: Tsoknyi Rinpoche |
And likewise John Tan said in the quote above,
"I think I mentioned I am not into without view. The freeing from seeing through self is not a form of "not knowing", contrary it is deep wisdom that allows one to understand our nature directly.”"
"However due to ignorance, we have a very inherent and dual view, if we do see through the nature of presence, the mind continues to be influenced by dualistic and inherent tendencies. Many teach to overcome it through mere non conceptuality but this is highly misleading." - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../anatta-and-pure...
[30/9/17, 10:50:32 PM] Soh Wei Yu: The he Say open mouth already wrong. Cut off thinking.. then he use the Zen stick hit the floor.. is the mind and The hit same or different? Answer is just hit. No inside outside etc.. where you come from.. where does the one return to etc. All just hit. But after the interview I hear they discussing among themselves do u understand? They all just shrug, dunnu what the Teacher talking about
[30/9/17, 10:55:20 PM] John Tan: Zen is a non verbal expression of suchness
[30/9/17, 10:56:00 PM] John Tan: Attending to express in the most direct and intuitive way the actualization of anatta
[30/9/17, 10:57:05 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[30/9/17, 10:57:12 PM] John Tan: But the extreme of it is the insight will prevent further insights
[30/9/17, 10:57:45 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Cos falling into non conceptual disease?
[30/9/17, 10:58:32 PM] John Tan: And actualization is on-going...After the koan an, one has to mature oneself to embrace both side of the coins...
[30/9/17, 10:59:12 PM] Soh Wei Yu: What are the both sides?
[30/9/17, 10:59:21 PM] Soh Wei Yu: View and nondual experience?
[30/9/17, 10:59:37 PM] John Tan: Yes
[30/9/17, 10:59:52 PM] John Tan: Non-verbal direct experience is important
[30/9/17, 11:00:05 PM] John Tan: Only the over emphasis is the issue
[30/9/17, 11:00:17 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[30/9/17, 11:01:52 PM] John Tan: Too much emphasis on just non-verbal stuff will prevent one from further insights into our nature as the mind can't clearly see
[30/9/17, 11:02:59 PM] John Tan: But too much analysis and thinking is a grave obstruction to energy and intuitive felt sense practice
[30/9/17, 11:03:05 PM] John Tan: Have to balance
[30/9/17, 11:16:37 PM] John Tan: Sat chit Ananda can b a very refined stage too
[30/9/17, 11:16:54 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Like different stages of I amness?
[30/9/17, 11:17:04 PM] John Tan: Yes
[30/9/17, 11:17:16 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[30/9/17, 11:17:58 PM] John Tan: Just don't like to say I hv experience this and that...lol. ... Too old to go into debate anymore...
[30/9/17, 11:18:09 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[30/9/17, 11:19:46 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Just now he ask the question what is the one clear thing beyond life and death even before interview.. then I sat on the question and just experienced blissful being ness. Like beingness is blissful... actually anything nondual is blissful that’s why breathing can also be incredibly blissful
[30/9/17, 11:21:27 PM] John Tan: Yes but u R in anatta or total exertion or non-obstruction self arising phenomenon
[30/9/17, 11:21:42 PM] John Tan: Or in silence?
[30/9/17, 11:22:05 PM] John Tan: Or in non-dual awareness?
[30/9/17, 11:22:14 PM] John Tan: All are non dual
[30/9/17, 11:22:19 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[30/9/17, 11:22:57 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Depends on the question I think, like before birth who am I leads to more like silent being, just mind
[30/9/17, 11:23:22 PM] John Tan: Just I M
[30/9/17, 11:23:46 PM] John Tan: fully into beingness
[30/9/17, 11:25:09 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ya
Labels: Disease of Non-Conceptuality