- Soh Wei YuAdmin28/4/13 9:56:47 PM: John Tan: I change the para ... U rephase and make it more humble and sincere28/4/13 9:57:19 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Ok28/4/13 10:01:51 PM: John Tan: Not ur dreams arose out of my intention28/4/13 10:03:07 PM: John Tan: Ur dreams arose several times that coincide with the messages that I hope u can get especially when u r in army.28/4/13 10:04:15 PM: John Tan: U see it as more of a synchronicity than coincidental.28/4/13 10:04:58 PM: John Tan: U r saying it as a causal effect arose from my intention28/4/13 10:06:21 PM: John Tan: I did pray and meditate when u r in army regarding those stuff u dreamt but I m not sure y u dreamt of it...though I hope u can practice these in dreams28/4/13 10:07:01 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Oic..28/4/13 10:07:27 PM: John Tan: So don't mystify it as if I hv special power ... Lol28/4/13 10:07:35 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Hahaha28/4/13 10:07:50 PM: John Tan: It maybe u picking up my thoughts28/4/13 10:08:00 PM: John Tan: Change it28/4/13 10:08:05 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Lol ok28/4/13 10:11:13 PM: John Tan: Better...lol28/4/13 10:11:23 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Haha28/4/13 10:12:38 PM: Soh Wei Yu: By the way u only commented the part on absolute right28/4/13 10:12:47 PM: John Tan: Very soon u will make me a cult leader28/4/13 10:13:12 PM: John Tan: Yes ... It is just to point out28/4/13 10:13:20 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Lol..28/4/13 10:13:35 PM: John Tan: To look into it replacing a dry pure presence28/4/13 10:13:49 PM: John Tan: But put in a nice way28/4/13 10:14:44 PM: John Tan: Dogen is not only talking about pure awareness, not understanding pure awareness as dry Pure Presence28/4/13 10:23:54 PM: Soh Wei Yu: By the way but not my view28/4/13 10:24:01 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I copy that too?28/4/13 10:24:12 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Ur bracket28/4/13 10:24:28 PM: John Tan: Yeah but write it properly28/4/13 10:25:11 PM: John Tan: Means the deconstruction of absolute and relative r ur experiences but not ur view now ...28/4/13 10:29:24 PM: Soh Wei Yu: What u mean To look into it replacing a dry pure presence28/4/13 10:36:19 PM: John Tan: Nvm no need to add and add unless u understand what I mean28/4/13 10:36:42 PM: John Tan: Otherwise there will b no ending28/4/13 10:37:06 PM: Soh Wei Yu: U mean not pointing to awareness in and of itself ?28/4/13 10:37:27 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Btw u said he understood one activity, does he understand anatta?28/4/13 10:37:29 PM: John Tan: This issue is not a single issue...as I said is a total paradigm shift and how could it b capture in these words28/4/13 10:37:53 PM: John Tan: How I know he understands or not28/4/13 10:37:55 PM: John Tan: Lol28/4/13 10:38:03 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Lol28/4/13 10:38:45 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Dry pure presence is like substantial nondual isn't it28/4/13 10:38:55 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Dogen is talking about the manifold28/4/13 10:48:48 PM: Soh Wei Yu: By the way28/4/13 10:49:57 PM: Soh Wei Yu: "Another aspect of Dogen’s unique treatment of koans was his use of the Five Ranks of Master Dongshan (J. Tozan) to illuminate different perspectives available within a koan. The Five Ranks—first delineated by Dongshan and elaborated on by his successor Caoshan (J. Sozan)—are a formulation of the coming together of dualities. The first rank is “the relative within the absolute.” This is emptiness: no eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, or mind. The second rank is the realization of that emptiness, and is referred to as “the absolute within the relative”—the realm in which the enlightenment experience, or “kensho,” occurs. Yet absolute and relative are still dualistic. The third rank is “coming from within the absolute.” No longer in the abstract, the whole universe becomes your very life itself and, inevitably, compassion arises. Dongshan’s fourth rank is “arriving at mutual integration,” the coming from both absolute and relative. At this stage, the absolute and relative are integrated, but they’re still two things. In the fifth rank, “unity attained,” there is no more duality. There is just one thing—neither absolute nor relative, up nor down, profane nor holy, good nor bad, male nor female.Dogen never explicitly talked about the Five Ranks, except to summarily dismiss them, yet he definitely engaged them in a way that reflects a singular understanding and appreciation of their method. In “Sansuikyo” for example, he writes:"28/4/13 10:50:17 PM: Soh Wei Yu: - https://web.archive.org/web/20150121054037/http://www.mro.org/mr/archive/24-2/articles/dogenandkoansdaido.html(Comments by Soh: I also like reading John Daido Loori's explanations and expressions)28/4/13 10:50:20 PM: Soh Wei Yu: What do u think28/4/13 10:52:13 PM: Soh Wei Yu: From the way he put it28/4/13 10:52:24 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Anatta is instant tozan stage five28/4/13 10:52:25 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Lol28/4/13 10:55:32 PM: John Tan: For a genuine practitioner, there is no ending
Soh Wei Yu
28/4/13 6:20:48 PM: John Tan: Absolute and relative, absolute in relative and relative in absolute ... All these points to the fundamental problem of view
28/4/13 6:22:31 PM: John Tan: Yet experiencing and the deconstruction of the 2 poles r crucial and must led to it's eventual dissolution into a new paradigm shift.
28/4/13 6:22:41 PM: John Tan: Must lead
28/4/13 6:25:24 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I see
28/4/13 6:25:51 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Not sure how I should explain. I just copy that part can?
28/4/13 6:28:55 PM: John Tan: Hm...unless u want to adequately address that otherwise write in more detail abt this next time.
28/4/13 6:29:19 PM: John Tan: When we discuss, write to the point.
28/4/13 6:30:48 PM: Soh Wei Yu: How should I write about that to the point
28/4/13 6:31:49 PM: John Tan: That will b a long essay...lol
28/4/13 6:32:03 PM: Soh Wei Yu: It's ok I already write long hahaha
28/4/13 6:32:31 PM: John Tan: I know but I mean for me to write
28/4/13 6:32:44 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Lol
28/4/13 6:33:00 PM: John Tan: U talk abt a single activity that is already understood
28/4/13 6:33:18 PM: John Tan: It is not the zen teacher's issue
28/4/13 6:33:25 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I see..
28/4/13 6:34:49 PM: John Tan: The fundamental issue is the view of absolute and relative, absolute in relative and relative in absolute.
28/4/13 6:35:25 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I see.. Can u tell me how to reply on that
28/4/13 6:37:35 PM: John Tan: Why dogen pointed out and expressed as total exertion of maha experience in most mundane activity and not as Pure Awareness is also this issue. In fact that ultimate Awareness sort of understanding was being refuted.
28/4/13 6:39:07 PM: John Tan: It will take some time to think through. As there r many issues related to it.
28/4/13 6:39:34 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
28/4/13 6:40:56 PM: Soh Wei Yu: So I put my reply on hold first?
28/4/13 6:41:07 PM: John Tan: Still ok
28/4/13 6:41:32 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But then how to address what u said is the main issue
28/4/13 6:41:33 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Hmm
28/4/13 6:42:15 PM: John Tan: Exchanges r ongoing ...
28/4/13 6:44:13 PM: John Tan: It is not a one exchange and that's it.
28/4/13 6:48:26 PM: Soh Wei Yu: So do I mention about the absolute and relative like what u said now? Not sure how to elaborate on It. Will email u again
28/4/13 6:51:33 PM: John Tan: Not so relevant unless with more detailed explanation
28/4/13 6:51:58 PM: John Tan: But I told u past and future r being transcended is not right
28/4/13 6:52:49 PM: John Tan: Totally exerted does not mean u disregard past and future
28/4/13 6:53:24 PM: John Tan: Like what u told me there is just now ... That is ignorant imo
28/4/13 6:54:08 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Yeah not disregarded but cast off and exertion via interdependence
28/4/13 6:54:05 PM: John Tan: This one thought contains all of past
28/4/13 6:55:03 PM: John Tan: Not to fall into a now philosophy
28/4/13 6:55:23 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I didn't say there is just now
28/4/13 6:55:39 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I said I can't see aeons only what's presented
28/4/13 6:55:48 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But what's presented is total exertion of conditions
28/4/13 6:55:52 PM: John Tan: Like u see a building, disregarding how it is build from scratch is not wisdom...is ignorance
28/4/13 6:55:58 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But doesn't mean I can see all conditions
28/4/13 6:56:00 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Isn't it?
28/4/13 6:57:38 PM: Soh Wei Yu: How about I put it this way
28/4/13 6:57:50 PM: Soh Wei Yu: My intention to raise my hand... Gone... Exerted as raising my hand
28/4/13 7:01:45 PM: John Tan: Don't anyhow express
28/4/13 7:02:03 PM: John Tan: Let's talk abt de-chaining
28/4/13 7:03:08 PM: John Tan: Past is gone, future has not arisen, just focus on now...what is being freed?
28/4/13 7:05:12 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Traces of self, past, etc?
28/4/13 7:09:23 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Any sense of a ground
28/4/13 7:10:06 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Or any sense of any thing persisting
28/4/13 7:10:23 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But there is no need to focus on now
28/4/13 7:12:17 PM: John Tan: Din always say isn't whatever said r just stories? Why confuse urself with all these?
28/4/13 7:12:48 PM: John Tan: Isn't this advise better than no past and future?
28/4/13 7:12:58 PM: John Tan: Past
28/4/13 7:31:16 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Insight into wrong view is needed for release
28/4/13 7:31:25 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But trying to stay thoughtless
28/4/13 7:31:29 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Not
28/4/13 7:34:58 PM: John Tan: U borrowed from someone a sum of money, both the lender and u changes every moment, the lender is not the same lender and u r not the same u, so u din actually borrow and the lender din actually lend so if u pay the lender, u r paying the wrong person?
28/4/13 7:37:23 PM: Soh Wei Yu: All actions leave traces that continues in a stream of becoming but not lost, like karma
28/4/13 7:37:59 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Conventionally one say one inherits and reaps karma
28/4/13 7:38:08 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Actually just karma alone rolls and ripens
28/4/13 7:38:17 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Likewise for owing and returning
28/4/13 7:39:06 PM: John Tan: I m saying u must hv right understanding and not erroneous view
28/4/13 7:39:55 PM: John Tan: I go makan
28/4/13 7:40:10 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Ok.. Cya
28/4/13 7:41:02 PM: John Tan: Also when u write to ur zen teacher, he writes humbly and u must write sincerely...not teaching him whatever
28/4/13 7:41:47 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I see..
28/4/13 7:44:29 PM: John Tan: Therefore even if I want to write, I must write with utmost respect and sincerity. He is definitely practicing so must we.
28/4/13 7:46:02 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I see..
28/4/13 8:10:40 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Sent u a draft
28/4/13 8:19:13 PM: John Tan: Ok will go through later
28/4/13 8:40:09 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Will add one more line "I apologise if my previous email sounded disrespectful"
28/4/13 8:55:33 PM: John Tan: No need just this mail write properly
28/4/13 8:55:44 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Huh
28/4/13 8:56:28 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Ok
28/4/13 8:56:48 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Have u read my draft
28/4/13 8:59:09 PM: John Tan: Haven't...
28/4/13 9:00:27 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Ok
Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei YuSunday, July 13, 2014 at 9:30pm UTC+08
Hmm although bernie [glassman] uses the terms source absolute and relative in earlier part of the book, at later part he rejects them and says those are dualistic and extra notions. Yet he says it is necessary to go through those steps as long as one has not overcome sense of self. The five ranks.. at the fifth rank there is no more source, absolute or relative.
Labels: Anatta, Zen, Zen Master Tozan Ryokai