The Awakening to Reality Practice Guide and AtR Guide - abridged version

Hello! Welcome to the Awakening to Reality blog.

For all new to Awakening to Reality blog, I highly recommend reading the 'Must Read' articles on the right panel, such as 

 

You are welcomed to join our discussion group on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/

If you are interested in realizing and actualizing these insights, do read the following (free) e-books:

1) The Awakening to Reality Practice Guide by Nafis Rahman:

  • Update: Portuguese translation now available here


2) The Awakening to Reality Guide - Web Abridged Version by Pablo Pintabona and Nafis Rahman:

Special thanks to these individuals for their efforts in making these compilations. I trust they will greatly benefit spiritual aspirants.

3) The Awakening to Reality Guide - Original Version compiled by Soh:

  • Feedback:  "I also want to say, actually the main ATR document >1200 pages helped me the most with insight. I am not sure how many have the patience to read it. I did it twice 😂 it was so helpful and these Mahamudra books supported ATR insights. Just thought to share.", "To be honest, the document is ok [in length], because it’s by insight level. Each insight is like 100 plus pages except anatta [was] exceptionally long [if] I remember lol. If someone read and contemplate at the same time it’s good because the same point will repeat again and again like in the nikayas [traditional Buddhist scriptures in the Pali canon] and insight should arise by the end of it imo.", "A 1000 plus pages ebook written by a serious practitioner Soh Wei Yu that took me a month to read each time and I am so grateful for it. It’s a huge undertaking and I have benefitted from it more that I can ever imagine. Please read patiently."  - Yin Ling



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Nagarjuna: For whom there is emptiness, there are all things

 

André A. Pais

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For whom there is emptiness, there are all things. For whom there is no emptiness there is nothing whatsoever.
For whom there is emptiness there are all natural and supernatural things. Why? For whom there is emptiness there is dependent origination. For whom there is dependent origination there are the four noble truths.
For whom there are the four noble truths there are the fruits of religious practice, and all the special attainments. For whom there are all the special attainments there are the three jewels, the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha.
For whom there is dependent origination there is righteousness, its cause, and its result, as well as unrighteousness, its cause, and its result. For whom there is the righteous and the unrighteous, their cause and their result there are the obscurations, their origin, and their bases.
For whom there is all this, the law of the fortunate and unfortunate states of rebirth, the attainment of the fortunate and unfortunate states of rebirth, the way of going toward the fortunate and unfortunate states of rebirth, the passing beyond the fortunate and unfortunate states of rebirth, the means for passing beyond the fortunate and unfortunate states of rebirth as well as all worldly conventions are established.
It is to be understood by each one for himself according to this instruction; only some of it can be taught verbally.
I venerate the one who taught emptiness, dependent origination, and the middle way as one thing, the incomparable Buddha.
~ Nagarjuna, in Dispeller of Disputes
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Buddhadharma Destroys All Sense of Self

Mr Z said: "He has quoted Rob Burbea several times "We’re not trying to destroy the sense of self, where trying to understand something about it”. He claims Angelo and others have taken it a step too far."

Soh replied:

Rob Burbea is not correct here. Buddhism does destroy the sense of self, but only at an advanced phase of one's practice.

Destroying the sense of self is part and parcel of overcoming the third and ninth fetter of Buddha’s teachings (I am not speaking here of Kevin Shanilec’s version which I consider to be not exactly the same as Buddha's definitions but that's another story).

However the way the fetters are destroyed is not through forcing it out. That cannot be done.

As John Tan said:

"...it seems that lots of effort need to be put in -- which is really not the case. The entire practice turns out to an undoing process. It is a process of gradually understanding the workings of our nature that is from beginning liberated but clouded by this sense of ‘self’ that is always trying to preserve, protect and ever attached. The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’. Whatever we do, positive or negative, is still doing. Ultimately there is not-even a letting go or let be, as there is already continuous dissolving and arising and this ever dissolving and arising turns out to be self-liberating. Without this ‘self’ or ‘Self’, there is no ‘doing’, there is only spontaneous arising. "

~ Thusness (source: Non-dual and karmic patterns)

"...When one is unable to see the truth of our nature, all letting go is nothing more than another form of holding in disguise. Therefore without the 'insight', there is no releasing.... it is a gradual process of deeper seeing. when it is seen, the letting go is natural. You cannot force yourself into giving up the self... purification to me is always these insights... non-dual and emptiness nature...."

~ Thusness

- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/09/realization-and-experience-and-non-dual.html

So if that is what Rob Burbea meant, then he is correct. However, if he meant that the sense of self will forever be around, then it is clearly wrong, and he is clearly at odds with the Buddhist scriptures from Theravada to Mahayana and Vajrayana. Sense of self will indeed vanish without a trace in true liberation. Also see: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/07/buddhahood-end-of-all-emotionalmental.html

Buddha or arahants will still be able to respond to someone calling his name, but it does not mean he/she has a sense of self.

"Would an arahant say "I" or "mine"?

Other devas had more sophisticated queries. One deva, for example, asked the Buddha if an arahant could use words that refer to a self:

"Consummate with taints destroyed,
One who bears his final body,
Would he still say 'I speak'?
And would he say 'They speak to me'?"

This deva realized that arahantship means the end of rebirth and suffering by uprooting mental defilements; he knew that arahants have no belief in any self or soul. But he was puzzled to hear monks reputed to be arahants continuing to use such self-referential expressions.

The Buddha replied that an arahant might say "I" always aware of the merely pragmatic value of common terms:

"Skillful, knowing the world's parlance,
He uses such terms as mere expressions."

The deva, trying to grasp the Buddha's meaning, asked whether an arahant would use such expressions because he is still prone to conceit. The Buddha made it clear that the arahant has no delusions about his true nature. He has uprooted all notions of self and removed all traces of pride and conceit:

"No knots exist for one with conceit cast off;
For him all knots of conceit are consumed.
When the wise one has transcended the conceived
He might still say 'I speak,'
And he might say 'They speak to me.'
Skillful, knowing the world's parlance,
He uses such terms as mere expressions." (KS I, 21-22; SN 1:25)"

- https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/jootla/wheel414.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawFNGVgBHTq9uH1IuxwgiDtblDUbra_E7HnGM2DmoHhF_XIBOtuwE2EnrfDEXjkmhQ

And here's another better translation:

SN 1.25

Question: When a mendicant is perfected, proficient, with defilements ended, bearing the final body: would they say, ‘I speak’, or even ‘they speak to me’?”

The Buddha replied: “When a mendicant is perfected, proficient, with defilements ended, bearing the final body: they would say, ‘I speak’, and also ‘they speak to me’. Skillful, understanding the world’s conventions, they’d use these terms as no more than expressions.”

Question: “When a mendicant is perfected, proficient, with defilements ended, bearing the final body: is such a mendicant drawing close to conceit if they’d say, ‘I speak’, or even ‘they speak to me’?”

The Buddha replied: “Someone who has given up conceit has no ties, the ties of conceit are all dissipated. Though that intelligent person has transcended substantial reality, they’d still say, ‘I speak’, and also ‘they speak to me’. Skillful, understanding the world’s conventions, they’d use these terms as no more than expressions.”

Lastly, another sharing of an excerpt of Buddha's discourse in MN 140:

29. “So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, should cultivate relinquishment, and should train for peace.’

30. “‘The tides of conceiving do not sweep over one who stands upon these [foundations], and when the tides of conceiving no longer sweep over him he is called a sage at peace.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?

31. “Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a conceiving. Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and is not agitated. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he be agitated?

32. “So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The tides of conceiving do not sweep over one who stands upon these [foundations], and when the tides of conceiving no longer sweep over him he is called a sage at peace.’ Bhikkhu, bear in mind this brief exposition of the six elements.”

----

The Buddha said: Blissful is passionlessness in the world, The overcoming of sensual desires (i.e. anagami); But the abolition of the conceit "I am" (i.e. arahantship) — That is truly the supreme bliss.

Also, the Buddha said:

“The noble ones have seen as happiness

The ceasing of identity.

This [view] of those who clearly see

Runs counter to the entire world.



“What others speak of as happiness,

That the noble ones say is suffering;

What others speak of as suffering,

That the noble one know as bliss.”

 

-- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2014/05/early-buddhism-model-of-awakening.html 

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Realize Mind/Clarity/Radiance/Presence/Awareness/Beingness before Contemplating Anatta

Wrote to someone:


First step is to realize Mind/Consciousness. Have the absolute certainty of what Mind/Consciousness is first. Self enquiry is meant to directly realize and authenticate the Radiance Clarity or Mind


it is a total doubtless certainty of what Mind, what Existence, what Presence or Beingness is


when it dawned on feb 2010 i wrote a writing about the 'certainty of Being'


Beingness becomes the only sole certain thing beyond all doubts, unshakeable certainty


yes and this 'Beingness' is not the problem, anatta does not deny it but reveals its empty nature. before that the Clarity is known but not its empty nature


Later you have to realize the relationship between this Mind/Radiance and phenomena


And that is through realizing No Mind or anatta


But anatta is not like a dry no self or impersonality


It is rather to realize the very nature of this Radiance, its empty nature, and because of its empty nature is none other than the self luminous vivid display or ongoing appearances


If one does first have that certainty and realization and taste of what Mind is or what the radiance of Mind is, one is not yet ready. And even if one experiences certain aspect of no self it is skewed towards impersonality or non doership (related: Pellucid No-Self, Non-Doership ). It is not the pellucid nondual luminosity or radiance as all arisings, all manifestations, all appearances


If one has that complete certainty of what luminosity, what Mind, what knowingness, what radiance is, then one is ready to proceed to contemplate on what zen master thich nhat hanh said here. So that they can realise the empty nature of knowingness and how knowingness is none other than vivid manifestation in anatta as a seal.


If one does not have that direct taste and realisation of knowingness to begin with, then such contemplation may not be very meaningful


zen master thich nhat hanh's anatta contemplations:


https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/07/no-nouns-are-necessary-to-initiate-verbs.html


No nouns are necessary to initiate verbs

Translations: (Vietnamese) Không cần danh từ để bắt đầu động từ - No nouns are necessary to initiate verbs


 (French) Les noms ne sont pas nécessaires pour initier les verbes - No nouns are necessary to initiate verbs




Update: A year after this conversation, Fishskull3 broke through One Mind into Anatta! See No single unified awareness, just the luminosity of appearances



Xabir = Soh


User avatar

level 1

Fishskull3

· 9 hr. ago

Everything isn’t made of awareness, it quite literally is awareness itself. In your direct experience there isn’t anything inside looking out at something. the very thing that you presently think is the “seen” is the ongoing activity of the “seer” or awareness.


3level 2

xabir

· just now

I like your answer. Also, I would like to add, awareness is none other than the ongoing activity. It is not the case that awareness is an unchanging substance modulating as everything. 'Awareness' is just like a word like 'weather', a mere name denoting the ongoing dynamic activities of raining wetting sun shining wind blowing lightning strike and so on and on. 'Awareness' has no intrinsic existence of its own than moment to moment manifestation, even if at that moment it is just a mere sense of formless Existence, that too is another 'foreground' non-dual manifestation and not an unchanging background.


Just like there is no lightning besides flash (lightning is flashing -- lightning is just another name for flash and is not the agent behind flash), no wind besides blowing, no water besides flowing, no nouns or agents are needed to initiate verbs. There never was an agent, a seer, or even a seeing, besides colors, never an agent, a hearer, or even a hearing, besides sound. Everything is just radiant and pellucid without a knower, sound hears and scenery sees. Anatta.


Some excerpts from the 2nd most famous Buddhist masters (right after the Dalai Lama) of our time, the Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh :


Excerpts from http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2008/10/sun-of-awareness-and-river-of.html

some other quotations which Thusness/PasserBy liked from the book --"When we say I know the wind is blowing, we don't think that there is something blowing something else. "Wind' goes with 'blowing'. If there is no blowing, there is no wind. It is the same with knowing. Mind is the knower; the knower is mind. We are talking about knowing in relation to the wind. 'To know' is to know something. Knowing is inseparable from the wind. Wind and knowing are one. We can say, 'Wind,' and that is enough. The presence of wind indicates the presence of knowing, and the presence of the action of blowing'.""..The most universal verb is the verb 'to be'': I am, you are, the mountain is, a river is. The verb 'to be' does not express the dynamic living state of the universe. To express that we must say 'become.' These two verbs can also be used as nouns: 'being", "becoming". But being what? Becoming what? 'Becoming' means 'evolving ceaselessly', and is as universal as the verb "to be." It is not possible to express the "being" of a phenomenon and its "becoming" as if the two were independent. In the case of wind, blowing is the being and the becoming....""In any phenomena, whether psychological, physiological, or physical, there is dynamic movement, life. We can say that this movement, this life, is the universal manifestation, the most commonly recognized action of knowing. We must not regard 'knowing' as something from the outside which comes to breathe life into the universe. It is the life of the universe itself. The dance and the dancer are one."


----------------

Comments by Thusness/PasserBy: "...as a verb, as action, there can be no concept, only experience. Non-dual anatta (no-self) is the experience of subject/Object as verb, as action. There is no mind, only mental activities... ...Source as the passing phenomena... and how non-dual appearance is understood from Dependent Origination perspective."

.............

Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh:"When we say it's raining, we mean that raining is taking place. You don't need someone up above to perform the raining. It's not that there is the rain, and there is the one who causes the rain to fall. In fact, when you say the rain is falling, it's very funny, because if it weren't falling, it wouldn't be rain. In our way of speaking, we're used to having a subject and a verb. That's why we need the word "it" when we say, "it rains." "It" is the subject, the one who makes the rain possible. But, looking deeply, we don't need a "rainer," we just need the rain. Raining and the rain are the same. The formations of birds and the birds are the same -- there's no "self," no boss involved. There's a mental formation called vitarka, "initial thought."


When we use the verb "to think" in English, we need a subject of the verb: I think, you think, he thinks. But, really, you don't need a subject for a thought to be produced. Thinking without a thinker -- it's absolutely possible. To think is to think about something. To perceive is to perceive something. The perceiver and the perceived object that is perceived are one.When Descartes said, "I think, therefore I am," his point was that if I think, there must be an "I" for thinking to be possible. When he made the declaration "I think," he believed that he could demonstrate that the "I" exists. We have the strong habit or believing in a self. But, observing very deeply, we can see that a thought does not need a thinker to be possible. There is no thinker behind the thinking -- there is just the thinking; that's enough. Now, if Mr. Descartes were here, we might ask him, "Monsieur Descartes, you say, 'You think, therefore you are.' But what are you? You are your thinking. Thinking -- that's enough. Thinking manifests without the need of a self behind it."Thinking without a thinker. Feeling without a feeler. What is our anger without our 'self'? This is the object of our meditation. All the fifty-one mental formations take place and manifest without a self behind them arranging for this to appear, and then for that to appear. Our mind consciousness is in the habit of basing itself on the idea of self, on manas.


But we can meditate to be more aware of our store consciousness, where we keep the seeds of all those mental formations that are not currently manifesting in our mind. When we meditate, we practice looking deeply in order to bring light and clarity into our way of seeing things. When the vision of no-self is obtained, our delusion is removed. This is what we call transformation. In the Buddhist tradition, transformation is possible with deep understanding. The moment the vision of no-self is there, manas, the elusive notion of 'I am,' disintegrates, and we find ourselves enjoying, in this very moment, freedom and happiness."


1

Labels: Anatta, Fishskull3 | 




also related: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/just-manifestation-or-just-mind.html

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About Feeling Overwhelmed by the Variety of Teachings

Someone posted something before I could approve, I was at work (yes I have a 9 to 6 job, and I cannot be answering AtR all day) and the post disappeared before I could read it properly and approve it. None of my admins removed it as far as I know, which means the initial poster removed it himself. But I will try to respond based on what I can recall (I only took a glance at my workplace).

But basically that person feels confused and discouraged as awakening or stream entry seems elusive, all kinds of people and teachers presenting unique information that appears overwhelming and he didn't know who to trust.

Well first of all I have to say, be a little patient as it will all be figured out at the end if you have the heart to figure it out, if you truly wish to awaken, to discover Truth, I think everything will turn out well. There are plenty of people who awakened, through AtR as I've said, more than 60 have awakened to anatman. There are also teachers available -- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2024/01/finding-awakened-spiritual-teacher-and.html . And just to be clear, stream entry requires the realization of anatman, or at least Thusness Stage 5 and is not just the preliminary awakening (such as the I AM awakening), but still, the I AM awakening is crucial for a start.

It is true that awakening is not as simple and straightforward a journey as many would prefer and there are several stages of deepening and unfolding of insights even after the initial awakening. But in the end it all efforts will prove worthwhile. Before I even had any personal realizations (my awakening in 2010), I was acquinted with John Tan, who shared many things with me, including but not limited to the Thusness 7 Stages of Enlightenment https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

If you can truly understand (as I did, even before 2010) at least intellectually what these stages or phases of realization meant, then you will be able to understand why different teachers and spiritual aspirants say different things. There are actual, different stages of realization and insights, and different people express differently based on what they understand and realized. Of course many have not even realized the I AM -- Stage 1, but still, they might (or might not) be able to offer some good advise.

In any case, I can only suggest that you read the 7 stages carefully, then everything will start to make clearer sense. In my own experience, and those of many others, even if one has not awakened yet, those who read the AtR articles very quickly becomes less confused by the vast variety of views and sayings of different teachers and speakers in the spiritual marketplace and be able to discern what the insights meant, or even which phase of insight, and so on. Soon after reading the 7 stages and conversing with John Tan, even before I awakened, I was able to discern the correct view and even tell 'what stage the other teachers are at', although the point isn't to be able to discern which teacher or person is at which stage, it is more for one's own inner development and discernment so that when these stages unfold in oneself, it can serve as a guide.

But one must be patient and not expect to get it all at once. It often takes years of reading, contemplating, meditating, conversing with teachers and others etc to begin to see some fruition and one's understanding, then insights (experiential insights, not just intellectual understanding) begin to manifest and mature. There is no need to rush to the end point but it is important to have an earnest desire to discover the Truth.

It's like if you are at high school, there is no need to feel overwhelmed when you peek into a university or degree material. When you get there, eventually it will all make sense, although it may take a couple of years. But if you put your heart to it, there is no doubt you will get there eventually so to speak. (I'm just using this as an example -- of course, awakening does not mean academic achievement, even an uneducated person can be awakened)

In short: Do not feel exhausted at seeing the numberless discussions and differing views stemming from people at different stages of insights or varying experiences, but just have a good overall understanding and take steps on your path. Once you start to understand the 7 Stages, it all makes sense. But don't expect to get it all in one day, just take steps to read the AtR articles, like the 7 stages. And start to practice, meditate, self-enquire, etc so that whatever you read does not remain as merely intellectual information but can be directly realized and tasted.

And if you are feeling overwhelmed, I suggest that you just read the 7 stages to have a general picture but focus on the I AM. Just take steps to contemplate, self enquire, meditate, realize the I AM first. You can read the AtR practice guide focusing on the initial chapter on self enquiry and I AM: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/06/the-awakening-to-reality-practice-guide.html , or you can read another book related to I AM awakening like The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle (a good one, I always buy and give it to friends), etc.

As Krodha/Kyle Dixon said before,

“I don’t see why not. Stream entry involves recognition of the true nature of the clear, bright, knowing, cognizance of your mind.

As your practice progresses you should begin to familiarize with that knowing capacity. Even with bipolar, in the height of happiness, the depths of depression, in the intensity of anger, that knowing capacity is always the same, stable, bright, clear. Like the surface of a mirror.

Anger, sadness, happiness and everything else are like reflections that appear in the surface of the mirror but don’t affect it.

Be the mirror and don’t get caught up in the reflections.

This is not yet stream entry. But it can be a basis for practice that will help you get there.

…

In initial practice, if you treat your knowing conscious clarity of mind as something like the surface of a mirror, and the sensory stimuli as reflections that appear on the mirror, anchor your view as being the mirror and the view will always be stable no matter what appears.”

Aditya Prasad:

 I don't understand this quote. "Stream entry is X. This is not yet stream entry." I think I am misunderstanding which parts describe stream entry and which do not. Is the distinction here the same as initial rigpa vs mature rigpa ( = stream entry)? Kyle Dixon · 49m

Soh Wei Yu:

Admin

Kyle Dixon is saying that recognising the clarity aspect of rigpa is not stream entry but is an important preliminary realisation. Realising the empty nature (i.e. anatman) of that clarity of mind is stream entry.

 (On the subject of the definition of stream entry: see [https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20](https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20) and https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/08/insight-buddhism-reconsideration-of.html )

I will leave you with something John Tan/Thusness wrote in 2005 to Sim Pern Chong:

"Hi LongChen,
 
It is difficult to comprehend the mystery of life. Just like there is no half-infinity, the Movement is really the Source. The nature of Consciousness is without self, it is the very otherness that we experience, not to distant itself from itself. The hidden unmanifest is ever manifesting, in the movement everything IS.
 
There are more workers and warriors then we imagine. Some plant the seed of luminosity, some plant Emptiness. Not all are aware of their designated roles but knowingly or unknowingly they carry out their tasks. The tasks carried out might appear conflicting as if enlightened beings battling among themselves. Thus battling is not only dark against light.                     
 
From the perspective of the source, there is no conflict, not even in the minuteness moment of arising – a lost balance does not exist in reality but only in forms. ‘Birth’ is the beginning of life and yet it is also the beginning of Death. The wise therefore look beyond the appearance of forms and works on cause, condition and effect and understands the emptiness nature of reality."

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Chinul's Approach of Returning to the Source

Question: What is the mind of void and calm, numinous awareness?

Chinul: What has just asked me this question is precisely your mind of void and calm, numinous awareness. Why not trace back its radiance rather than search for it outside? For your benefit I will now point straight to your original mind so that you can awaken to it. Clear your minds and listen to my words.

From morning until evening, all during the 12 periods of the day, during all your actions and activities - whether seeing, hearing, laughing, talking, whether angry of happy, whether doing evil or good - ultimately who is it that is able to perform all these actions? Speak! If you say that it is the physical body which is acting, then at the moment when a man's life comes to an end, even though the body has not yet decayed, how is it that the eyes cannot see, the ears cannot hear, the nose cannot smell, the tongue cannot talk, the hands cannot grasp, the feet cannot run?

You should know that what is capable of seeing, hearing, moving and acting has to be your original mind; it is not your physical body. Furthermore, the four elements which make up the physical body are by nature void; they are like images in a mirror of the moon's reflection in water. How can they be clear and constantly aware, always bright and never obscured - and, upon activation, be able to put into operation sublime functions as numerous as the sands of the Ganges? For this reason it is said: "Drawing water and carrying firewood are spiritual powers and sublime functions."

There are many points at which to enter the noumenon. I will indicate one approach which will allow you to return to the source.

Chinul: Do you hear the sound of that crow cawing and that magpie calling?

Student: Yes.

Chinul: Trace them back and listen to your hearing-nature. Do you hear any sounds?

Student: At that place, sound and discrimination do not obtain.

Chinul: Marvelous! Marvelous! This is Avalokitesvara's method for entering the noumenon. Let me ask you again. You said that sounds and discrimination do not obtain at that place. But since they do not obtain, isn't the hearing-nature just empty space at such a time?

Student: Originally it is not empty. It is always bright and never obscured.

Chinul: What is this essence which is not empty?

Student: Words cannot describe it.

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Nihilistic vs Non-Nihilistic Unreality and the Consequences of the Illusory

https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/posts/26617720641176014/?__cft__[0]=AZVAghG1aFptaEyiU4mTx4VD8uaHLNNyP0O23WkZWWGWrBH65MlkZEUSJBE17WaprKPgmdBJvhH8-kNlq5TVUZleD-lIcO1x2_BE-lAdkItW4L1tBuy9Qi9Y1kVwSFUdAUsSu_RXHsKqMl0TM7_CoVJVeU3qce6yART0gjd88ZjcnQ&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R

 

Chris Jones
Top contributor
Without knowing who the person is, I can’t say whether they’ve actually realized anatta or not, but based on that description it seems like maybe there are still some aspects for them to clarify. Anatta isn’t depersonalization/derealization at all, in my experience it improves your life in almost every aspect. I feel better day to day and my relationships have improved as well. There is not a day I regret it or think that I deluded myself somehow. Nor do people around me think that I’m detached, although I can seem unphased by things that would otherwise make someone very upset/angry/etc.
There are some symptoms of DP that sound familiar, like “feeling that people and your surroundings are not real, like you're living in a movie or a dream” or “[Surroundings] may seem like they only have two dimensions, so they're flat with no depth. Or you could be more aware of your surroundings, and they may appear clearer than usual”. But there is a caveat. I experience things as “not real” from one perspective, but from another I can also see how they are totally real in a conventional sense. Due to that, it doesn’t negatively impact my interactions and relationships at all.
It’s like how when you’re watching a movie, you can notice the screen and the screen is “flat” and 2-dimensional and the movie is simply light being projected from the screen. This isn’t a delusion, quite the opposite. Yet you can still continue to watch and enjoy the movie and things are still “real” within the context of the movie.
Thus nothing is lost from the experience, and one doesn’t distance themselves but rather is even more engaged with reality. All in all I wouldn’t worry too much about these things and would just suggest you to continue with your practice in an uncontrived way, without trying to fabricate any particular experience and see where it takes you.
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Soh Wei Yu
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Nice sharing.
Just a random thought for sharing..
Waking life and sleep dreams are both equally empty and illusory, but where dream objects are not conventionally valid with causal efficacy and functionality, waking life does.
For example if I borrowed money from someone in a dream and then I woke up, I do not need to return the money to the dream guy or lady because there is no functional purpose or causal efficacy to the dream money.
But in waking life, money, although a mere coventional imputation with no inherent reality to it, serves a function and has causal efficacy, this function and causal efficacy too is empty without real existence like a reflection but yet cannot be denied. In fact if you steal money from someone, it can cause suffering and death to a person, a family, or more.
This is why Buddhas and Bodhisattvas never enter cessation and endlessly return to help beings. Even though they understand there is no sentient beings to be saved, ultimately. Even if they attained Buddhahood or rainbow body, etc, they continue to help (illusory) beings, and their unending compassion and spontaneous actions to liberate sentient beings are never without consequences.
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“The Danger of Refuting Too Much: Ethics and Emptiness
"Tsong- kha- pa was particularly concerned that most of the then prevailing Tibetan interpretations of Nagarjuna’s Madhyamaka philosophy misidentified the object of negation. In his view, these widely promulgated misunderstandings of Madhyamaka subvert ethical commitments by treating them—and all other conventions—as provisional in the sense that their validity or legitimacy is obviated by the profound truth of emptiness. Tsong- kha- pa holds that profound emptiness must be understood as complementing and fulfilling, rather than canceling out, the principles of moral action. His writings aim to inspire and—as a matter of historical fact—did inspire vigorous striving in active virtue.
Tsong- kha- pa insists that rational analysis is an indispensable tool in the spiritual life. In order to make cogent the compatibility of emptiness and ethics, Tsong- kha- pa had to show that the two truths, ultimate and conventional, do not contradict, undermine, or supersede one another."
~ Introduction to Emptiness, Guy Newland”
“The birth of certainty ~ Lama Tsongkhapa
The knowledge that appearances arise unfailingly in dependence,
And the knowledge that they are empty and beyond all assertions—
As long as these two appear to you as separate,
There can be no realization of the Buddha’s wisdom.
Yet when they arise at once, not each in turn but both together,
Then through merely seeing unfailing dependent origination
Certainty is born, and all modes of misapprehension fall apart—
That is when discernment of the view has reached perfection.
– Lama Tsongkhapa
“EMPTINESS DEVIATING TO THE BASIC NATURE
Timeless Deviation to the Nature of Knowables The meditation of inseparable phenomena and emptiness is called “emptiness endowed with the supreme aspect.” Not knowing how emptiness and interdependence abide in nonduality, you decide that emptiness is a nothingness that has never existed and that is not influenced at all by qualities or defects. Then you underestimate the cause and effect of virtue and vice, or else lapse exclusively into the nature of all things being originally pure, primordially free, and so forth. Bearing such emptiness, the relative level of interdependence is not mastered. In this respect, this is what is known as mahamudra: one’s basic nature is unoriginated and, since it is neither existent nor nonexistent, eternal nor nil, true nor false, nor any other such aspects, it has no existence whatsoever. Nonetheless, its unceasing radiance arises as the relative level of all kinds of interdependence, so it is known as emptiness having the core of interdependence and interdependence having the nature of emptiness. Therefore, emptiness does not stray to the nature of knowables. In the Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way it is said: Anything that doesn’t arise dependently Is a phenomenon that has no existence. Therefore anything that is not empty Is a phenomenon that has no existence. And as said in the Commentary on Bodhichitta: It is taught that the relative plane is emptiness, And emptiness alone is the relative plane.” – The Royal Seal of Mahamudra, Volume 2, Khamtrul Rinpoche
The birth of certainty ~ Lama Tsongkhapa
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The birth of certainty ~ Lama Tsongkhapa
The birth of certainty ~ Lama Tsongkhapa
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Soh Wei Yu
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" Thorough knowledge of relative truth is ultimate truth; for this reason the two truths are mutually confirming and not in contradiction at all." – Acarya Malcolm, 2021
“A lot of talk on here lately about how lame relative reality is vs how awesome ultimate reality is.
Apparently an omniscient master is supposed to see how both the relative and the ultimate exist at the same time in a Union of Appearance and Emptiness.
It's because everything is dependently arisen that it can be seen as empty.
Not even the smallest speck exists by its own power.
Je Tsongkhapa said, "Since objects do not exist through their own nature, they are established as existing through the force of convention."
He was the biggest proponent of keeping vows and virtuous actions through all stages of sutra and tantra.
He also leveraged the relative by practicing millions of prostrations and offering mandalas.
He also practiced generation and completion stages of tantra while keeping his conduct spotless.
He held conduct in the highest regard in all of his texts on tantra such as his masterwork, A Lamp to Illuminate the Five Stages.” - Jason Parker, 2019
---
Longchenpa on Nihilism
From Finding Rest in the Nature of Mind.
"Those who scorn the law of karmic cause and fruit
Are students of the nihilist view outside the Dharma.
They rely on the thought that all is void;
They fall in the extreme of nothingness
And go from higher to lower states.
They have embarked on an evil path
And from the evil destinies will have no freedom,
Casting happy states of being far away.
”The law of karmic cause and fruit,
Compassion and the gathering of merit -
All this is but provisional teaching fit for children:
Enlightenment will not be gained thereby.
Great yogis should remain without intentional action.
They should meditate upon reality that is like space.
Such is the definitive instruction.”
The view of those who speak like this
Of all views is the most nihilist:
They have embraced the lowest of all paths.
How strange is this!
They want a fruit but have annulled its cause.
If reality is but a space-like void,
What need is there to meditate?
And if it is not so, then even if one meditates
Such efforts are to no avail.
If meditation on mere voidness leads to liberation,
Even those with minds completely blank
Attain enlightenment!
But since those people have asserted meditation,
Cause and its result they thus establish!
Throw far away such faulty paths as these!
The true, authentic path asserts
The arising in dependence of both cause and fruit,
The natural union of skillful means and wisdom.
Through the causality of nonexistent but appearing acts,
Through meditation on the nonexistent but appearing path,
The fruit is gained, appearing and yet nonexistent;
And for the sake of nonexistent but appearing beings,
Enlightened acts, appearing and yet nonexistent, manifest.
Such is pure causality’s profound interdependence.
This is the essential pith
Of all the Sutra texts whose meaning is definitive
And indeed of all the tantras.
Through the joining of the two accumulations,
The generation and completion stages,
Perfect buddhahood is swiftly gained.
Thus all the causal processes
Whereby samsara is contrived should be abandoned,
And all acts that are the cause of liberation
Should be earnestly performed.
High position in samsara
And the final excellence of buddhahood
Will speedily be gained."
from Finding Rest in the Nature of Mind (Volume 1)
Also by Longchenpa:
"To reject practice by saying, ‘it is conceptual!’ is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided.”
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“Cause and effort are conventional so they are of course illusory. But only in the eyes of (Soh: unawakened) sentient beings, illusory are unimportant and have no consequences.”
- John Tan
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Therefore, those who fall into a sense of purposelessness is likely harboring a nihilist view (the worst kind of wrong view in buddhadharma) that asserts non existence and negates dependent arising, and is the complete opposite of the wisdom that realizes the union of dependent arising and emptiness
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