Mr Z said: "He has quoted Rob Burbea several times "We’re not trying to destroy the sense of self, where trying to understand something about it”. He claims Angelo and others have taken it a step too far."

Soh replied:

Rob Burbea is not correct here. Buddhism does destroy the sense of self, but only at an advanced phase of one's practice.

Destroying the sense of self is part and parcel of overcoming the third and ninth fetter of Buddha’s teachings (I am not speaking here of Kevin Shanilec’s version which I consider to be not exactly the same as Buddha's definitions but that's another story).

However the way the fetters are destroyed is not through forcing it out. That cannot be done.

As John Tan said:

"...it seems that lots of effort need to be put in -- which is really not the case. The entire practice turns out to an undoing process. It is a process of gradually understanding the workings of our nature that is from beginning liberated but clouded by this sense of ‘self’ that is always trying to preserve, protect and ever attached. The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’. Whatever we do, positive or negative, is still doing. Ultimately there is not-even a letting go or let be, as there is already continuous dissolving and arising and this ever dissolving and arising turns out to be self-liberating. Without this ‘self’ or ‘Self’, there is no ‘doing’, there is only spontaneous arising. "

~ Thusness (source: Non-dual and karmic patterns)

"...When one is unable to see the truth of our nature, all letting go is nothing more than another form of holding in disguise. Therefore without the 'insight', there is no releasing.... it is a gradual process of deeper seeing. when it is seen, the letting go is natural. You cannot force yourself into giving up the self... purification to me is always these insights... non-dual and emptiness nature...."

~ Thusness

- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/09/realization-and-experience-and-non-dual.html

So if that is what Rob Burbea meant, then he is correct. However, if he meant that the sense of self will forever be around, then it is clearly wrong, and he is clearly at odds with the Buddhist scriptures from Theravada to Mahayana and Vajrayana. Sense of self will indeed vanish without a trace in true liberation. Also see: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/07/buddhahood-end-of-all-emotionalmental.html

Buddha or arahants will still be able to respond to someone calling his name, but it does not mean he/she has a sense of self.

"Would an arahant say "I" or "mine"?

Other devas had more sophisticated queries. One deva, for example, asked the Buddha if an arahant could use words that refer to a self:

"Consummate with taints destroyed,
One who bears his final body,
Would he still say 'I speak'?
And would he say 'They speak to me'?"

This deva realized that arahantship means the end of rebirth and suffering by uprooting mental defilements; he knew that arahants have no belief in any self or soul. But he was puzzled to hear monks reputed to be arahants continuing to use such self-referential expressions.

The Buddha replied that an arahant might say "I" always aware of the merely pragmatic value of common terms:

"Skillful, knowing the world's parlance,
He uses such terms as mere expressions."

The deva, trying to grasp the Buddha's meaning, asked whether an arahant would use such expressions because he is still prone to conceit. The Buddha made it clear that the arahant has no delusions about his true nature. He has uprooted all notions of self and removed all traces of pride and conceit:

"No knots exist for one with conceit cast off;
For him all knots of conceit are consumed.
When the wise one has transcended the conceived
He might still say 'I speak,'
And he might say 'They speak to me.'
Skillful, knowing the world's parlance,
He uses such terms as mere expressions." (KS I, 21-22; SN 1:25)"

- https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/jootla/wheel414.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawFNGVgBHTq9uH1IuxwgiDtblDUbra_E7HnGM2DmoHhF_XIBOtuwE2EnrfDEXjkmhQ

And here's another better translation:

SN 1.25

Question: When a mendicant is perfected, proficient, with defilements ended, bearing the final body: would they say, ‘I speak’, or even ‘they speak to me’?”

The Buddha replied: “When a mendicant is perfected, proficient, with defilements ended, bearing the final body: they would say, ‘I speak’, and also ‘they speak to me’. Skillful, understanding the world’s conventions, they’d use these terms as no more than expressions.”

Question: “When a mendicant is perfected, proficient, with defilements ended, bearing the final body: is such a mendicant drawing close to conceit if they’d say, ‘I speak’, or even ‘they speak to me’?”

The Buddha replied: “Someone who has given up conceit has no ties, the ties of conceit are all dissipated. Though that intelligent person has transcended substantial reality, they’d still say, ‘I speak’, and also ‘they speak to me’. Skillful, understanding the world’s conventions, they’d use these terms as no more than expressions.”

Lastly, another sharing of an excerpt of Buddha's discourse in MN 140:

29. “So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, should cultivate relinquishment, and should train for peace.’

30. “‘The tides of conceiving do not sweep over one who stands upon these [foundations], and when the tides of conceiving no longer sweep over him he is called a sage at peace.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?

31. “Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a conceiving. Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and is not agitated. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he be agitated?

32. “So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The tides of conceiving do not sweep over one who stands upon these [foundations], and when the tides of conceiving no longer sweep over him he is called a sage at peace.’ Bhikkhu, bear in mind this brief exposition of the six elements.”

----

The Buddha said: Blissful is passionlessness in the world, The overcoming of sensual desires (i.e. anagami); But the abolition of the conceit "I am" (i.e. arahantship) — That is truly the supreme bliss.

Also, the Buddha said:

“The noble ones have seen as happiness

The ceasing of identity.

This [view] of those who clearly see

Runs counter to the entire world.



“What others speak of as happiness,

That the noble ones say is suffering;

What others speak of as suffering,

That the noble one know as bliss.”

-- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2014/05/early-buddhism-model-of-awakening.html 

Wrote to someone:

First step is to realize Mind/Consciousness. Have the absolute certainty of what Mind/Consciousness is first. Self enquiry is meant to directly realize and authenticate the Radiance Clarity or Mind

it is a total doubtless certainty of what Mind, what Existence, what Presence or Beingness is

when it dawned on feb 2010 i wrote a writing about the 'certainty of Being'

Beingness becomes the only sole certain thing beyond all doubts, unshakeable certainty

yes and this 'Beingness' is not the problem, anatta does not deny it but reveals its empty nature. before that the Clarity is known but not its empty nature

Later you have to realize the relationship between this Mind/Radiance and phenomena

And that is through realizing No Mind or anatta

But anatta is not like a dry no self or impersonality

It is rather to realize the very nature of this Radiance, its empty nature, and because of its empty nature is none other than the self luminous vivid display or ongoing appearances

If one does first have that certainty and realization and taste of what Mind is or what the radiance of Mind is, one is not yet ready. And even if one experiences certain aspect of no self it is skewed towards impersonality or non doership (related: Pellucid No-Self, Non-Doership ). It is not the pellucid nondual luminosity or radiance as all arisings, all manifestations, all appearances

If one has that complete certainty of what luminosity, what Mind, what knowingness, what radiance is, then one is ready to proceed to contemplate on what zen master thich nhat hanh said here. So that they can realise the empty nature of knowingness and how knowingness is none other than vivid manifestation in anatta as a seal.

If one does not have that direct taste and realisation of knowingness to begin with, then such contemplation may not be very meaningful

zen master thich nhat hanh's anatta contemplations:

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/07/no-nouns-are-necessary-to-initiate-verbs.html

No nouns are necessary to initiate verbs

Translations: (Vietnamese) Không cần danh từ để bắt đầu động từ - No nouns are necessary to initiate verbs

 (French) Les noms ne sont pas nécessaires pour initier les verbes - No nouns are necessary to initiate verbs

Update: A year after this conversation, Fishskull3 broke through One Mind into Anatta! See No single unified awareness, just the luminosity of appearances

Xabir = Soh

User avatar

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Fishskull3

· 9 hr. ago

Everything isn’t made of awareness, it quite literally is awareness itself. In your direct experience there isn’t anything inside looking out at something. the very thing that you presently think is the “seen” is the ongoing activity of the “seer” or awareness.

3level 2

xabir

· just now

I like your answer. Also, I would like to add, awareness is none other than the ongoing activity. It is not the case that awareness is an unchanging substance modulating as everything. 'Awareness' is just like a word like 'weather', a mere name denoting the ongoing dynamic activities of raining wetting sun shining wind blowing lightning strike and so on and on. 'Awareness' has no intrinsic existence of its own than moment to moment manifestation, even if at that moment it is just a mere sense of formless Existence, that too is another 'foreground' non-dual manifestation and not an unchanging background.

Just like there is no lightning besides flash (lightning is flashing -- lightning is just another name for flash and is not the agent behind flash), no wind besides blowing, no water besides flowing, no nouns or agents are needed to initiate verbs. There never was an agent, a seer, or even a seeing, besides colors, never an agent, a hearer, or even a hearing, besides sound. Everything is just radiant and pellucid without a knower, sound hears and scenery sees. Anatta.

Some excerpts from the 2nd most famous Buddhist masters (right after the Dalai Lama) of our time, the Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh :

Excerpts from http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2008/10/sun-of-awareness-and-river-of.html

some other quotations which Thusness/PasserBy liked from the book --"When we say I know the wind is blowing, we don't think that there is something blowing something else. "Wind' goes with 'blowing'. If there is no blowing, there is no wind. It is the same with knowing. Mind is the knower; the knower is mind. We are talking about knowing in relation to the wind. 'To know' is to know something. Knowing is inseparable from the wind. Wind and knowing are one. We can say, 'Wind,' and that is enough. The presence of wind indicates the presence of knowing, and the presence of the action of blowing'.""..The most universal verb is the verb 'to be'': I am, you are, the mountain is, a river is. The verb 'to be' does not express the dynamic living state of the universe. To express that we must say 'become.' These two verbs can also be used as nouns: 'being", "becoming". But being what? Becoming what? 'Becoming' means 'evolving ceaselessly', and is as universal as the verb "to be." It is not possible to express the "being" of a phenomenon and its "becoming" as if the two were independent. In the case of wind, blowing is the being and the becoming....""In any phenomena, whether psychological, physiological, or physical, there is dynamic movement, life. We can say that this movement, this life, is the universal manifestation, the most commonly recognized action of knowing. We must not regard 'knowing' as something from the outside which comes to breathe life into the universe. It is the life of the universe itself. The dance and the dancer are one."

----------------

Comments by Thusness/PasserBy: "...as a verb, as action, there can be no concept, only experience. Non-dual anatta (no-self) is the experience of subject/Object as verb, as action. There is no mind, only mental activities... ...Source as the passing phenomena... and how non-dual appearance is understood from Dependent Origination perspective."

.............

Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh:"When we say it's raining, we mean that raining is taking place. You don't need someone up above to perform the raining. It's not that there is the rain, and there is the one who causes the rain to fall. In fact, when you say the rain is falling, it's very funny, because if it weren't falling, it wouldn't be rain. In our way of speaking, we're used to having a subject and a verb. That's why we need the word "it" when we say, "it rains." "It" is the subject, the one who makes the rain possible. But, looking deeply, we don't need a "rainer," we just need the rain. Raining and the rain are the same. The formations of birds and the birds are the same -- there's no "self," no boss involved. There's a mental formation called vitarka, "initial thought."

When we use the verb "to think" in English, we need a subject of the verb: I think, you think, he thinks. But, really, you don't need a subject for a thought to be produced. Thinking without a thinker -- it's absolutely possible. To think is to think about something. To perceive is to perceive something. The perceiver and the perceived object that is perceived are one.When Descartes said, "I think, therefore I am," his point was that if I think, there must be an "I" for thinking to be possible. When he made the declaration "I think," he believed that he could demonstrate that the "I" exists. We have the strong habit or believing in a self. But, observing very deeply, we can see that a thought does not need a thinker to be possible. There is no thinker behind the thinking -- there is just the thinking; that's enough. Now, if Mr. Descartes were here, we might ask him, "Monsieur Descartes, you say, 'You think, therefore you are.' But what are you? You are your thinking. Thinking -- that's enough. Thinking manifests without the need of a self behind it."Thinking without a thinker. Feeling without a feeler. What is our anger without our 'self'? This is the object of our meditation. All the fifty-one mental formations take place and manifest without a self behind them arranging for this to appear, and then for that to appear. Our mind consciousness is in the habit of basing itself on the idea of self, on manas.

But we can meditate to be more aware of our store consciousness, where we keep the seeds of all those mental formations that are not currently manifesting in our mind. When we meditate, we practice looking deeply in order to bring light and clarity into our way of seeing things. When the vision of no-self is obtained, our delusion is removed. This is what we call transformation. In the Buddhist tradition, transformation is possible with deep understanding. The moment the vision of no-self is there, manas, the elusive notion of 'I am,' disintegrates, and we find ourselves enjoying, in this very moment, freedom and happiness."

1

Labels: Anatta, Fishskull3 | 

also related: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/just-manifestation-or-just-mind.html

Someone posted this but the post seems to have disappeared before I could approve. Perhaps he deleted it? 

"So a nondual teacher that I've followed for a while is claiming that the idea of no-self upheld by this group, Angelo Dilullo, Adyashanti, Fetters 8-10 etc. (dropping away of all identity, no agency, no doership, no inner world, no self reflection) is not supported or taught by Buddhism whatsoever. They claim that this is a recent invention and no different from depersonalization/derealization.

They claim that all of these teachers- Angelo, Adyashanti, John Tan, etc are actually just experiencing depersonalization and derealization. They describe no-self as a "hell realm" and that any teacher promising the end of suffering is misleading and not being genuine about their own experience. They further claim that many of these nondual teachers are secretly in therapy and on meds due to their deep stage realizations.

How would you guys respond to this?" 

 

 Soh: Having read thousands of pages of Buddha's teachings in suttas/sutras and scriptures, I can assure you that anatman, anatta as discussed in AtR is not at all a recent invention but is the core teaching of Buddha right from the very start. Just take for example these articles on AtR which cites many sciptures: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2011/10/anatta-not-self-or-no-self_1.html and https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2012/09/great-resource-of-buddha-teachings.html , and I will happily provide more quotes and citations any time if necessary. Also, Anatta cannot possibly cause depersonalization. What is depersonalization? Chatgpt: “Depersonalization is a feeling where you feel disconnected from yourself, as if you're watching your life from the outside. It's like when you're in a dream or watching a movie, and your actions or thoughts don't feel like they're your own. People with depersonalization might feel like their body or emotions aren't real, even though they know logically that they are. It’s a way your brain might react to stress or anxiety, like putting up a wall to protect you from feeling overwhelmed.” 

 

If anyone has the slightest clue what is the anatta discussed in AtR, they would know that this depersonalization as described above goes 180 degress opposite of anatta realization, because when the subject-action-object, seer-seeing-seen paradigm is deconstructed, it can only possibly lead to total gapless intimacy with life and activity without a hairbreadth's distinction and separation, hence dissociation is impossible. This cannot be missed right after anatta: "Now the everything feels ‘Me’ sort of sensation becomes a daily matter and the bliss of losing oneself completely into scenery, sound, taste is wonderful. This is different from everything collapsing into a “Single Oneness” sort of experience but a disperse out into the multiplicity of whatever arises. Everything feels closer than ‘me’ due to gaplessness." Anyone who doesn't experience this deep bliss and luminosity of anatta arising in and as all senses and entirety of life arising as samadhi absorption even at the very start of the initial breakthrough of anatman is really not speaking about anatta at all.

In fact depersonalization is possible when one is stuck at some dark night possibly in the I AM and impersonality phase (although I have personally not gone through all these issues myself), but not possible when there is proper anatta realization.

 

We can take Suzanne Segal's case for example, it's too long so you will have to read her whole story: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/dark-night.html Also this is a must-read article written by myself for anyone who wishes to understand AtR Anatta and how it differs from mere impersonality or substantialist nondual, and also why anatta makes depersonalization and dissociation impossible: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/04/different-degress-of-no-self-non.html But back to the Suzanne's case, John Tan said it best in January 2007:

"(commenting on some of Suzanne Segal's descriptions) If someone draws a line in the thin air and is able to plant a seed into a lay person’s inmost consciousness that “he can’t go beyond this line”, that lay person will feel that the so called ‘imaginary’ boundary is as solid as a physical wall. The way we are ‘bonded’ to dualistic view of a ‘Self’ is similar. A strong sense of Witnessing Presence without going beyond that "invisible line" is not the experience of “no-self” in Buddhism and therefore I would not call her experience an “insight” into no-self. The negative experiences she had seem more like very strong ‘self/Self’ propensities, it is a form of split, a separation. Staying in no-self is to be fully authenticated by all things and as all things. Fear arises because of this lack of authentication. She sank too deeply into the 'content'. This is the case of "dark nights" where propensities rushed into manifestations. Her attempt to reason herself out will not work. Logical reasoning cannot break that 'bond' and she just couldn't help reacting to it. One way out is to practice and develop the mental habit of "dissolving" every moment before "content" arise. The mental habit of dissolving will become a strength of it own to counter this problem. In true no-self experience, the first aspect is the cognitive mind loses its charm and is replaced with intuitive and direct experience. Only the qualities of our nature are experienced (clarity, radiance, presence and vitality), nothing about symbols, labels and content. Second, the illusionary view of a "Self' on top of manifestation is dissolved; There is complete rest in appearance. Nothing needs be done and therefore there can only be the experience of liberation as that boundary, that separation disappeared. Nothing is obstructing anything in the experience of no-self."


Lastly, I can sense deep confusion and ignorance in the teacher you spoke to. Rather than spreading and resorting to venomous and slanderous nonsense (I know that teacher is not a Buddhist and probably doesn't believe in karma, but still...), he or she should come here, reveal his/her identity and properly debate with us. I am happy to clear up all these misunderstandings. Also,  I am not sure if you have read this article I wrote before about how life is like after anatta:  

 

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/04/why-awakening-is-so-worth-it.html

Why awakening is so worth it

From time to time, people ask me why should they seek awakening. I say, awakening will be the best thing that happen in your life, I guarantee it. It is worth whatever effort you put into it. You won't regret it. Or as Daniel M. Ingram said, "Would I trade this for anything? Maybe world peace, but I would have to think about it. Until then, this totally rocks, and missing out on it would be barking crazy from my point of view."

What is it like? I can only give a little preview, an excerpt of what I wrote taken from the AtR guide:

"Personally, I can say from direct experience that direct realization is completely direct, immediate, and non-intellectual, it is the most direct and intimate taste of reality beyond the realm of imagination. It far exceeds one’s expectations and is far superior to anything the mind can ever imagine or dream of. It is utter freedom. Can you imagine living every moment in purity and perfection without effort, where grasping at identity does not take hold, where there is not a trace or sense of 'I' as a seer, feeler, thinker, doer, be-er/being, an agent, a 'self' entity residing inside the body somewhere relating to an outside world, and what shines forth and stands out in the absence of a 'self' is a very marvellous, wondrous, vivid, alive world that is full of intense vividness, joy, clarity, vitality, and an intelligence that is operating as every spontaneous action (there is no sense of being a doer), where any bodily actions, speech and thoughts are just as spontaneous as heart beating, fingernails growing, birds singing, air moving gently, breath flowing, sun shining - there is no distinction between ‘you are doing action’/’you are living’ and ‘action is being done to you’/’you are being lived’ (as there is simply no ‘you’ and ‘it’ - only total and boundless spontaneous presencing).

This is a world where nothing can ever sully and touch that purity and perfection, where the whole of universe/whole of mind is always experienced vividly as that very purity and perfection devoid of any kind of sense of self or perceiver whatsoever that is experiencing the world at a distance from a vantagepoint -- life without ‘self’ is a living paradise free of afflictive/painful emotions (note: I am not proclaiming a state of Buddhahood or Arahantship where all traces of mental afflictions are totally obliterated, see this link http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/07/buddhahood-end-of-all-emotionalmental.html and Traditional Buddhist Attainments: Arahantship and Buddhahood in the original AtR guide https://app.box.com/s/157eqgiosuw6xqvs00ibdkmc0r3mu8jg for more details), where every color, sound, smell, taste, touch and detail of the world stands out as the very boundless field of pristine awareness, sparkling brilliance/radiance, colorful, high-saturation, HD, luminous, heightened intensity and shining wonderment and magicality, where the surrounding sights, sounds, scents, sensations, smells, thoughts are seen and experienced so clearly down to the tiniest details, vividly and naturally, not just in one sense door but all six, where the world is a fairy-tale like wonderland, revealed anew every moment in its fullest depths as if you are a new-born baby experiencing life for the first time, afresh and never seen before, where life is abundant with peace, joy and fearlessness even amidst the apparent chaos and troubles of life, and everything experienced through all the senses far surpasses any beauty previously experienced, as if the universe is like heaven made of glittering gold and jewels, experienced in complete gapless directness without separation, where life and the universe is experienced in its intense lucidity, clarity, aliveness and vivifying presence not only without intermediary and separation but without center and boundaries - infinitude as vast as an endless night sky is actualized every moment, an infinitude that is simply the vast universe appearing as an empty, distanceless, dimensionless and powerful presencing, where the mountains and stars on the horizon stands out no more distant than one’s breath, and shines forth as intimately as one’s heartbeat, where the cosmic scale of infinitude is actualized even in ordinary activities as the entirety of the universe is always participating as every ordinary activity including walking and breathing and one’s very body (without a trace of an ‘I’ or ‘mine’) is as much the universe/dependent origination in action and there is nothing outside of this boundless exertion/universe, where the purity and infinitude of the marvellous world experienced through being cleansed in all doors of perception is constant. (If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is: Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern. - William Blake)

You know all the Mahayana Sutras (e.g. Vimalakirti Sutra), old Zen talks about seeing this very earth as pure land and all the Vajrayana talks about the point of tantra as the pure vision of seeing this very world, body, speech and mind in its primordial unfabricated purity as the Buddha field, palace, mandala, mantra and deity? Now you truly get it, you realise everything is really just like that when experienced in its primordial purity and perfection, and that the old sages have not been exaggerating at all. It is as much a literal and precise description of the state of consciousness as it is a metaphor. As I told John Tan before, Amitabha Sutra’s description of pure land resembles my living experience here and now. “To me it just means anatta. When what’s seen, tasted, touched, smelled are in clean purity, everywhere is pure land.” - John Tan, 2019. "If one is free from background self, all manifestations appear in clean purity in taste. Impurities from what I know come from mental constructions." – John Tan, 2020

This is a freedom that is free from any artificially constructed boundaries and limitations. And yet, this boundlessness does not in any way lead to the dissociation from one’s body, instead one feels more alive than ever as one’s very body, one grows ever more somatic, at home and intimate as one’s body. This is not a body normally conceived of, as the boundaries of an artificially solidified body that stands separated from the universe, dissolve into energetic streams of aliveness dancing and pulsating throughout the body in high energy and pleasure, as well as sensations of foot steps, movement, palm touching an object, where the body is no longer conflated with a constructed boundary of ‘inside’ and ‘outside’, ‘self’ or ‘other’, where no trace of an ‘inside’ and an ‘outside’ can be found in one’s state of consciousness - there’s only one indivisible, boundless and measureless world/mind - only this infinitude of a dynamic and seamlessly interconnected dance that we call ‘the universe’. This is better than any passing peak experiences be they arisen spontaneously, in meditation or through the use of psychedelic substances. And yet, despite experiencing life to it fullest every moment without any veils, in complete openness and utter nakedness, nothing gains a foothold in consciousness, for as vivid as they are, they leave no trace just as a bird leaves no tracks in the sky, an empty and lucid display such as a gust of wind and the glittery reflections of moon on the ocean waves - appearing but nothing ‘there’ or anywhere. All these words and descriptions I just wrote came very easily and spontaneously in a very short time as I am simply describing my current state of experience that is experienced every moment. I am not being poetic here but simply being as direct and clear as possible about what is immediately experienced. And this is only a figment that I am describing. If I were to tell you more of what this is like, you would not believe it. But once you enter this gateless realm you shall see that words always pale in comparison."

Labels: Anatta |

----

Mr JD wrote: 

Following recent events, I'm seeking clarification on the No Self/Anatta insight. A former member here claimed to have experienced this shift. No centre, boundary, space, agency etc. He really emphasized the lose of meaning. He said he dissolved into the environment, and all that remained was pure sense data. He also described the experience as "not human".

He contacted Dr Willoughby Britton (who works with Daniel Ingram), who told him what he experienced wasn't at all spiritual, but Depersonalization. He posted a list of the symptoms - most of which match up almost perfectly with No Self descriptions from ATR/Angelo. He now believes that this teaching mistake DP for enlightenment.

Anyway, I haven't had this insight - still at I Am - but I am feeling quite confused.

Soh, I don't really need a bunch of links to articles. What I am specifically interested in is: for those who have realized Anatta, what is your experience of meaning? How are your relationships? Children, partners, etc?

Is the cost of the obliteration of self/cessation of suffering the complete eradication of everything it means to be human?

Thanks

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Soh Wei Yu

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Hi, I don't know who the person you said 'had the shift' is referring to. But I'm sure this person hasn't realized anatta as described in AtR, nor has he or she realized luminosity and just merely had a dry nondual peak experience based off your descriptions.

Do keep in mind that anatta in AtR is also not just a state of centerlessness. Certain realizations must arise and it must be doubtless.

As I wrote:

"I was having a conversation with someone today (he had some history with various practices, vipassana, actual freedom, and recently came across a famous Thai ajahn, etc) who shared about an experience of dissolving into centerless space. I told him what I call anatta is not just being centerless, it is the effulgence and radiance of the transience. That is, regardless of any realization of no-self, and no matter how centerless one feels or how centerless is one's experience of awareness and so forth... still, anything short of direct realization of the radiance or luminosity as the very stuff of transiency is still not what I call the realization of anatta. (And that too is also just an aspect of anatta, and furthermore not yet into the twofold emptying)

Was reminded of a conversation with Thusness back in Aug 2010 and found some excerpts from the Actual Freedom site:

"(12:22 AM) Thusness: for u, u will not be clear now... what Richard taught has some problem...that focus is in the experience

u should focus on the realization

(12:22 AM) Thusness: the pce is what i told u, bring what u experience into the foreground

(12:23 AM) Thusness: Richard has a very important realization.

(12:24 AM) Thusness: that is, he is able to realize the immediate radiance in the transience

(12:25 AM) AEN: this is like ur second point of anatta in the anatta article?

(12:25 AM) Thusness: yes

(12:26 AM) Thusness: there is nothing to argue, it is obvious and clear.

(12:27 AM) Thusness: however i do not want to focus on the experience

(12:27 AM) Thusness: u need to go through a period of frustration first"

From the Actual Freedom site:

http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/…/selecte…/sc-relativism.htm

RESPONDENT: How do the qualities of ‘splendour and brilliance’ present themselves AS splendour and brilliance?

RICHARD: Directly ... as splendour and brilliance are intrinsic to the properties of this actual world they present themselves openly where apperception is operating: everything is literally bright, shining, vivid, intense, sparkling, luminous, lustrous, scintillating and coruscating in all its vitality here in this actual world.

.....

In a PCE one is fully immersed in the infinitude of this fairy-tale-like actual world with its sensuous quality of magical perfection and purity where everything and everyone has a lustre, a brilliance, a vividness, an intensity and a marvellous, wondrous, scintillating vitality that makes everything alive and sparkling ... even the very earth beneath one’s feet. The rocks, the concrete buildings, a piece of paper ... literally everything is as if it were alive (a rock is not, of course, alive as humans are, or as animals are, or as trees are). This ‘aliveness’ is the very actuality of all existence – the actualness of everything and everyone – for one is not living in an inert universe.

It is one’s destiny to be living the utter peace of the perfection of the purity welling endlessly as the infinitude this eternal, infinite and perpetual universe actually is.

... etc" - continue reading at https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../i-was-having...

Regarding dry nondual experience vs atr anatta:

"Anatta and Pure Presence

Someone told me about having been through insights of no self and then progressing to a realisation of the ground of being.

I replied:

Hi ____

Thanks for the sharing.

This is the I AM realization. Had that realisation after contemplating Before birth, who am I? For two years. It’s an important realization. Many people had insights into certain aspects of no self, impersonality, and “dry non dual experience” without doubtless realization of Presence. Therefore I AM realisation is a progression for them.

Similarly in Zen, asking who am I is to directly experience presence. How about asking a koan of what is the cup? What is the chirping bird, the thunder clap? What is its purpose?

When I talked about anatta, it is a direct insight of Presence and recognizing what we called background presence, is in the forms and colours, sounds and sensations, clean and pure. Authentication is be authenticated by all things. Also there is no presence other than that. What we call background is really just an image of foreground Presence, even when Presence is assuming its subtle formless all pervasiveness.

However due to ignorance, we have a very inherent and dual view, if we do see through the nature of presence, the mind continues to be influenced by dualistic and inherent tendencies. Many teach to overcome it through mere non conceptuality but this is highly misleading.

Thusness also wrote:

The anatta I realized is quite unique. It is not just a realization of no-self. But it must first have an intuitive insight of Presence. Otherwise will have to reverse the phases of insights

Labels: Anatta, Luminosity | "

- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../anatta-and-pure...

As for "What I am specifically interested in is: for those who have realized Anatta, what is your experience of meaning? How are your relationships? Children, partners, etc?

Is the cost of the obliteration of self/cessation of suffering the complete eradication of everything it means to be human? "

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+1

As for "What I am specifically interested in is: for those who have realized Anatta, what is your experience of meaning? How are your relationships? Children, partners, etc?

Is the cost of the obliteration of self/cessation of suffering the complete eradication of everything it means to be human? "

Anyone whose relationship deteriorated and find life to be meaningless after some shift can be 100% sure of one thing: that certainly wasn't anatta realization at all, certainly not the kind spoken of in AtR.

Although anatta is not a magical pill that makes all problems of life go away (e.g. if you have physical illness you still need to see doctor, if you have poverty you still need to work hard to earn money, and so on), your relation to others and life will surely improve drastically and things will just improve.

For example:

“IMO there is no further, it is the depth of how deep and how much the self is released regardless of what path is taken. I am not a teacher, there may be other ways… … Dealing with the mind, energy and awareness is a complex journey. There is the safe way and the dangerous way. The way is quite straightforward but the mind uncontented will look for shortcuts as it wants more. But that is usual… lol. There are those that want others to know about it and wrote about it and there are those that are not into this.

Soh has written a lot and visited many masters that can probably share with you better.

As for me, my path is simple. It is just plainly and simply opening myself in my work, seeing my family and children enjoy… ever tasting these natural expressions. I find them miraculous yet ordinary, others may not and look for more. So I am unable to tell them anything further.” - John Tan, 2019

“Actually there is no forcing. All the 4 aspects in I AMness are fully expressed in anatta as I told you. If aliveness is everywhere, how is one not to engage… it is a natural [tendency] to explore in [various] arena[s] and enjoy in business, family, spiritual practices... I [am] involve[d] in Finance, business, society, nature, spirituality, yoga.... I don't find it efforting… You just don't have to boast about this and that and be non-dual and open.” - John Tan, 2019

“Just met a friend yesterday who recently started meditating. His girlfriend joked that he might be becoming a monk. I told him that besides the daily sitting meditation (which is very important even after anatman realization, let alone before - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../how-silent...), practice is mostly and very much in daily life and engagement rather than in some remote region in the mountains, it is about living a life in the marketplace that is spontaneously beneficial for oneself and others around, and joyful, rather than one that is miserable. It is fully engaged and free.

Zen Master Bernie Glassman said,

“At its deepest, most basic level, Zen—or any spiritual path, for that matter—is much more than a list of what we can get from it. In fact, Zen is the realization of the oneness of life in all its aspects. It’s not just the pure or “spiritual” part of life: it’s the whole thing. It’s flowers, mountains, rivers, streams, and the inner city and homeless children on Forty-second Street. It’s the empty sky and the cloudy sky and the smoggy sky, too. It’s the pigeon flying in the empty sky, the pigeon shitting in the empty sky, and walking through the pigeon droppings on the sidewalk. It’s the rose growing in the garden, the cut rose shining in the vase in the living room, the garbage where we throw away the rose, and the compost where we throw away the garbage. Zen is life—our life. It’s coming to the realization that all things are nothing but expressions of myself. And myself is nothing but the full expression of all things. It’s a life without limits. There are many different metaphors for such a life. But the one that I have found the most useful, and the most meaningful, comes from the kitchen. Zen masters call a life that is lived fully and completely, with nothing held back, “the supreme meal.” And a person who lives such a life—a person who knows how to plan, cook, appreciate, serve, and offer the supreme meal of life, is called a Zen cook.”

“But why does a venerable elder such as yourself waste time doing the hard work of a head cook?” Dogen persisted. “Why don’t you spend your time practicing meditation or studying the words of the masters?” The Zen cook burst out laughing, as if Dogen had said something very funny. “My dear foreign friend,” he said, “it’s clear you do not yet understand what Zen practice is all about. When you get the chance, please come and visit me at my monastery so we can discuss these matters more fully.” And with that, he gathered up his mushrooms and began the long journey back to his monastery. Dogen did eventually visit and study with the Zen cook in his monastery, as well as with many other masters. When he finally returned to Japan, Dogen became a celebrated Zen master. But he never forgot the lessons he learned from the Zen cook in China.”

- Zen Master Bernie Glassman” - Soh, 2019

“In Zen, enlightenment implies full integration into activities. Any lack of such insight is not 'enlightenment in Zen'.” - John Tan, 2010

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AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

How silent meditation helped me with nondual inquiry

How silent meditation helped me with nondual inquiry

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+1

Also, some excerpts from those who attained 'actual freedom' of the AFT website:

'Man from Sydney'

http://actualfreedom.com.au/becomingfree.../sydneyreport.htm

It was all over in about 2 seconds. I experienced an utter stillness in my mind and all around me right afterwards. The stillness was so strong it was virtually palpable. There was an ease and effortlessness in the body and mind, which was different from the somewhat keyed up quality of a PCE. ‘I’ was not there anywhere remotely. I felt like a newborn baby, so fresh and exquisitely sensitive to the universe around me. It was odd having my thoughts not linked to any being in the centre. They seemed like they were disconnected and just floating around me. All of this smoothed out in the next few days and became increasingly coherent and natural, as I adjusted to the newly free state.

That night I was so excited I found it hard to sleep. I was just walking around in the dark experiencing this night-time wonderland completely unencumbered. I knew I couldn’t be 100% sure I was actually free. But this was nothing like anything else I had ever experience before. I had to sleep on it and give it time. I woke up the next day, expecting that it may be gone but that stillness and lack of being was still remarkably evident. My chest felt clean – like a breezy hollow. The usual morning flood of turbulent emotions on waking were gone. A number of times, I tried to trigger myself with all manner of things as I didn’t want to fool myself, but there was not a trace of being anywhere in sight and I knew it. And things have just got better and better since then. I cannot tell you just how amazing and incredible it is to be here in this actual world.

http://actualfreedom.com.au/actu.../actualvineeto/sydney.htm

"RESPONDENT: Dear Vineeto and Richard,

I have just posted up a report on Slack [actualist discussion group] and Yahoo Groups. I have been actually free since Nov 3rd 2018 and wanted to write you both and thank you for did for ‘me’ over the years that eventually allowed me to escape my fate and fulfil my destiny. Or perhaps I should say appreciate all you have done since there is no feeling of indebtedness anymore  […]

It is so deliciously amazing being here now. It is totally unimaginable and unbelievable as Richard has correctly said. It is quite freaky sometimes how giganormously vast this universe is such that it takes my breath away. I get intimations of infinitude and I am sure the definitive experience of it is on the horizon. I feel like my brain has been ‘uncapped’ and the magnificent universe – as oppose to ‘self’ and ‘other’ is my preoccupation. My body and mind are sometimes suffused with pleasure and expansiveness such that it is too much and I have to back away! I’ve been having a whale of a time just living my life for the last month or so. I’ve been having a fantastic time also comparing notes with Geoffrey and No 9(AF). The relationship with my girlfriend is like night and day. I’m like this big happy kid, that wants for her happiness. There is a delicious intimacy. Prior to this I was a grudging boyfriend, who often tolerated her and occasionally felt guilty enough to try and make a romantic gesture.

I would love to hear more about being fully free. But for now I am content to just enjoy and enjoy some more. The utter safety, spaciousness and stillness I am experiencing is truly something remarkable.

Yours actually "

Although Actual Freedom is not Buddhism, you may find his journey from I AM to No Self interesting, Richard: http://actualfreedom.com.au/.../abriefpersonalhistory.htm

ACTUALFREEDOM.COM.AU

Man from Sydney - Report of Becoming Free

Man from Sydney - Report of Becoming Free

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