Parts Without Inherency, the Purpose of the Chariot Analogy

 
[9/9/24, 11:52:52 PM] John Tan: Ask u, if in a world where everything is uniformly blue in color, can u see blue?
[9/9/24, 11:53:13 PM] Yin Ling: Ahh.. then u won’t call it blue?
[9/9/24, 11:53:28 PM] Yin Ling: Must need a contrast
[9/9/24, 11:54:09 PM] John Tan: Yes.  If everything is uniformly blue, then we r blind to "blueness"
[9/9/24, 11:54:18 PM] Yin Ling: Ya
[9/9/24, 11:54:32 PM] Yin Ling: U trying to say…?🤣
[9/9/24, 11:54:53 PM] John Tan: So now if a different color is introduced into this world say white, what happened?
[9/9/24, 11:55:17 PM] Yin Ling: Then there’s blue and white 🤣
[9/9/24, 11:55:26 PM] John Tan: Lol yes
[9/9/24, 11:55:28 PM] Yin Ling: If just blue.. it’s .. whatever
[9/9/24, 11:55:32 PM] Yin Ling: No one will care
[9/9/24, 11:56:22 PM] John Tan: So without interaction between two objects our experience can change so radically
[9/9/24, 11:56:34 PM] Yin Ling: Yes ah
[9/9/24, 11:56:48 PM] Yin Ling: Don’t know suffering won’t know bliss 🤣
[9/9/24, 11:57:21 PM] John Tan: So can u see dependent arising without the need for interaction
[9/9/24, 11:57:44 PM] Yin Ling: Interaction means?
[9/9/24, 11:57:52 PM] Yin Ling: Ya like dependent designation
[9/9/24, 11:57:57 PM] John Tan: Contact between two objects
[9/9/24, 11:58:11 PM] Yin Ling: Oh I see
[9/9/24, 11:58:42 PM] Yin Ling: Yes ah, Dalai Lama specifically named that kind of dependent arising
[9/9/24, 11:58:59 PM] Yin Ling: I think he named 4-5 kinds in detail
[9/9/24, 11:59:11 PM] John Tan: Now if two objects travel at 80km/hr were to move at same speed in the same direction, they appear stationary
[9/9/24, 11:59:13 PM] Yin Ling: Causal one is most gross
[9/9/24, 11:59:40 PM] Yin Ling: The designation. Long short white black etc. then mind and forms
[9/9/24, 11:59:43 PM] Yin Ling: Yes
[10/9/24, 12:00:21 AM] John Tan: Now if u introduce a stationary object, suddenly motion is experienced.
[10/9/24, 12:00:32 AM] Yin Ling: Yup
[10/9/24, 12:00:36 AM] John Tan: Not as concept but as lived experience
[10/9/24, 12:00:46 AM] Yin Ling: Yup
[10/9/24, 12:01:02 AM] John Tan: So can u tell which is moving?
[10/9/24, 12:01:26 AM] John Tan: Is the stationary object moving or the 80km object?
[10/9/24, 12:01:27 AM] Yin Ling: When two is moving sometimes its hard to tell unless one is rooted
[10/9/24, 12:01:44 AM] Yin Ling: Like sometimes u think the trees are moving on the road when you drive
[10/9/24, 12:01:53 AM] Yin Ling: As a kid
[10/9/24, 12:02:25 AM] Yin Ling: The 80km moving object is moving ?
[10/9/24, 12:02:40 AM] John Tan: U can't know
[10/9/24, 12:02:46 AM] John Tan: Motion is relative
[10/9/24, 12:03:01 AM] Yin Ling: Huh
[10/9/24, 12:03:06 AM] Yin Ling: Confused lol
[10/9/24, 12:03:30 AM] John Tan: U will not know which is moving although motion is experienced
[10/9/24, 12:03:53 AM] Yin Ling: Oh if u have nothing to compare
[10/9/24, 12:03:55 AM] John Tan: We often think we know things through its properties inherent in things, but it was never like that
[10/9/24, 12:04:26 AM] Yin Ling: Meaning if we move at 80km/h but there is nothing else that moves at a different speed we can’t tell motion?
[10/9/24, 12:04:28 AM] Yin Ling: Right
[10/9/24, 12:04:45 AM] Yin Ling: But when there’s a rooted object then there’s relative motion
[10/9/24, 12:04:53 AM] John Tan: The 80km/hr is never in the thing itself nor is the movement or stationary
[10/9/24, 12:05:04 AM] Yin Ling: Oh yes that is correct
[10/9/24, 12:05:33 AM] John Tan: It requires a relational or dependencies
[10/9/24, 12:05:52 AM] Yin Ling: Correct
[10/9/24, 12:06:07 AM] John Tan: Now is there such a thing call emptiness without dependent arising?
[10/9/24, 12:06:19 AM] Yin Ling: Ahahah no
[10/9/24, 12:06:33 AM] Yin Ling: It is empty coz it dependently arise
[10/9/24, 12:07:04 AM] John Tan: Ppl like to talk just about emptiness as one truth. But fluxing insubstantiality means dependency
[10/9/24, 12:07:39 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah emptiness essentially already means no one truth
[10/9/24, 12:07:52 AM] John Tan: When u see change even like the ethereal rainbow, it involves parts
[10/9/24, 12:08:11 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah
[10/9/24, 12:09:11 AM] John Tan: Like though sensations, smell, thoughts...etc.  u can pin it... insubstantial and flux...seemingly doesn't involve parts
[10/9/24, 12:09:21 AM] John Tan: But it involve parts
[10/9/24, 12:09:26 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah
[10/9/24, 12:09:34 AM] Yin Ling: Gravity
[10/9/24, 12:09:35 AM] John Tan: U can't pin down
[10/9/24, 12:09:57 AM] John Tan: I mean even if u can't pin down it involves parts
[10/9/24, 12:09:58 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah it seemingly doesn’t involve parts
[10/9/24, 12:10:16 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah
[10/9/24, 12:10:20 AM] Yin Ling: Makes sense
[10/9/24, 12:11:07 AM] John Tan: When we say where does sound arise, in the air, the stick, the bell or in the brain or in the insubstantial mind
[10/9/24, 12:11:54 AM] John Tan: We r dealing with dependent and relational parts
[10/9/24, 12:12:50 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah
[10/9/24, 12:14:27 AM] John Tan: In chandrakirti chariot analysis, the presentation of the chariot and their parts, is not to say chariot does not exist. [It is] To tell us that chariot dependencies with parts is like how the world is
[10/9/24, 12:15:15 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah
[10/9/24, 12:15:40 AM] John Tan: Bec we see inherently we can't understand how dependent relation works
[10/9/24, 12:16:14 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah makes sense
[10/9/24, 12:16:37 AM] John Tan: We kept looking for inherent parts...our mind kept thinking what [how] can there be parts if there is no inherentness
[10/9/24, 12:17:19 AM] John Tan: How can non-inherent appearances have causal efficacies
[10/9/24, 12:17:39 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah but it’s exactly opposite
[10/9/24, 12:17:42 AM] John Tan: But our actual experiences are all demonstrating that
[10/9/24, 12:17:49 AM] Yin Ling: Yup lol
[10/9/24, 12:18:05 AM] Yin Ling: Feels very inherent one
[10/9/24, 12:18:09 AM] John Tan: Yes
[10/9/24, 12:18:20 AM] John Tan: We touch something, we think it is there
[10/9/24, 12:18:31 AM] John Tan: Objectively there
[10/9/24, 12:18:42 AM] Yin Ling: Yup
[10/9/24, 12:18:53 AM] Yin Ling: We must always find a inherent cause
[10/9/24, 12:19:03 AM] John Tan: We think inherently
[10/9/24, 12:19:50 AM] Yin Ling: Would thinking non inherently reduce suffering ?
[10/9/24, 12:20:01 AM] John Tan: Definitely
[10/9/24, 12:20:23 AM] John Tan: The cause of suffering comes from that
[10/9/24, 12:20:28 AM] Yin Ling: Example?
[10/9/24, 12:20:46 AM] John Tan: The mind tendency to pin down is the cause of grasping


[10/9/24, 12:21:16 AM] John Tan: U know that if u don't hold, u can sleep
[10/9/24, 12:21:18 AM] John Tan: Lol
[10/9/24, 12:21:40 AM] John Tan: But fear inadvertently originates subconsciously
[10/9/24, 12:22:42 AM] John Tan: Is rejection a form of holding in disguised?
[10/9/24, 12:24:37 AM] John Tan: Inherentness is a form of pinning down

[10/9/24, 12:25:02 AM] John Tan: Rejection is also a form of pinning down

[10/9/24, 12:25:11 AM] John Tan: In an opposite direction

[10/9/24, 12:26:07 AM] John Tan: But it is a habit of reaction
[10/9/24, 12:26:42 AM] John Tan: It works on how u take and experience things

[10/9/24, 12:27:13 AM] John Tan: But it is a slow and gradual progress

[10/9/24, 12:28:15 AM] John Tan: Yes but also we must see that although we understand it is not deep enough proven by the fact that we still see things objectively and inherently

[10/9/24, 12:29:01 AM] John Tan: Like hearing an ambulance siren, by default we think it comes from the car
[10/9/24, 12:29:06 AM] John Tan: The ambulance

[10/9/24, 12:30:12 AM] John Tan: We never think of dependent arising esp [especially] it requires our mind
[10/9/24, 12:31:17 AM] John Tan: When u touch mind directly, everything is mind and become mind-like
[10/9/24, 12:31:47 AM] John Tan: Everything now is pervaded by clarity

[10/9/24, 12:32:22 AM] John Tan: Then u have to balance it with dependent origination
[10/9/24, 12:33:38 AM] John Tan: If we contemplate regularly, we will begin to see the rainbow like quality is a dependent arising

[10/9/24, 12:34:00 AM] John Tan: Then ur mind opens up to intimacy of everything
[10/9/24, 12:34:40 AM] John Tan: When u see non-inherentness, it must at the same open up to all its parts



——-

John Tan:


1.  Inherent existence of parts is not required for establishment of relationships, u only need nominal conventions.


2.  Thinking that since nominal conventions do not exist ultimately, there is no causal efficacy and has no implications and consequences is an extreme view tainted by inherent thoughts.  


Precisely so because only inherent mind thinks true existence is needed for consequences and implications. For this point, I think Tsongkhapa is more 通透, unfortunately for traditions that emphasize on direct and non-conceptual experiences, this is often overlooked.


——-


Also related: My Favourite Sutra, Non-Arising and Dependent Origination of Sound

And

Rainbow

 


    John Tan

    snooSedtrh39f07a5lc8h1fu 
    Listening to someone tutoring about "rainbow",
    The teaching of science came to my mind.
    The raindrops, the sunshine;
    The light that enters and exits the droplets;
    The reflection, refraction and light dispersion;
    All these formed the rainbow.
    But they missed the most important factor,
    The radiance of our own mind.

    1 Comment


      Jayson MPaul
      Rainbows need to have eyes in correct position, water droplets, light, radiant mind, all like so for rainbow to appear. Move slightly and rainbow is gone. Never came from anywhere, stayed anywhere, or went anywhere. The rainbow was insubstantial, but vividly displayed. All phenomena are like this.


      Stian Gudmundsen Høiland
      Look ahead and you see the table and your phone. Need "all like so" (tatha). Look behind you and that is gone, but now a new like so and not otherwise.

        • Reply
        • 1w
        • Edited






      • Dragan Milojević
      What radiance of mind? Where is it, science needs proofs and evidence. Mind is only a perceptor and analyzer.


      John Tan
      Dragan Milojević Science can prove the sad tears of a mother are H2O but can't prove the "sadness". As human, we need both.
      But I like ur question, Where is this radiance?
      Yes where is it? Even Buddha cannot know it's whereabout.

      • Reply
      • 1w
      • Edited
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