[9/9/24, 11:52:52 PM] John Tan: Ask u, if in a world where everything is uniformly blue in color, can u see blue?
[9/9/24, 11:53:13 PM] Yin Ling: Ahh.. then u won’t call it blue?
[9/9/24, 11:53:28 PM] Yin Ling: Must need a contrast
[9/9/24, 11:54:09 PM] John Tan: Yes. If everything is uniformly blue, then we r blind to "blueness"
[9/9/24, 11:54:18 PM] Yin Ling: Ya
[9/9/24, 11:54:32 PM] Yin Ling: U trying to say…?🤣
[9/9/24, 11:54:53 PM] John Tan: So now if a different color is introduced into this world say white, what happened?
[9/9/24, 11:55:17 PM] Yin Ling: Then there’s blue and white 🤣
[9/9/24, 11:55:26 PM] John Tan: Lol yes
[9/9/24, 11:55:28 PM] Yin Ling: If just blue.. it’s .. whatever
[9/9/24, 11:55:32 PM] Yin Ling: No one will care
[9/9/24, 11:56:22 PM] John Tan: So without interaction between two objects our experience can change so radically
[9/9/24, 11:56:34 PM] Yin Ling: Yes ah
[9/9/24, 11:56:48 PM] Yin Ling: Don’t know suffering won’t know bliss 🤣
[9/9/24, 11:57:21 PM] John Tan: So can u see dependent arising without the need for interaction
[9/9/24, 11:57:44 PM] Yin Ling: Interaction means?
[9/9/24, 11:57:52 PM] Yin Ling: Ya like dependent designation
[9/9/24, 11:57:57 PM] John Tan: Contact between two objects
[9/9/24, 11:58:11 PM] Yin Ling: Oh I see
[9/9/24, 11:58:42 PM] Yin Ling: Yes ah, Dalai Lama specifically named that kind of dependent arising
[9/9/24, 11:58:59 PM] Yin Ling: I think he named 4-5 kinds in detail
[9/9/24, 11:59:11 PM] John Tan: Now if two objects travel at 80km/hr were to move at same speed in the same direction, they appear stationary
[9/9/24, 11:59:13 PM] Yin Ling: Causal one is most gross
[9/9/24, 11:59:40 PM] Yin Ling: The designation. Long short white black etc. then mind and forms
[9/9/24, 11:59:43 PM] Yin Ling: Yes
[10/9/24, 12:00:21 AM] John Tan: Now if u introduce a stationary object, suddenly motion is experienced.
[10/9/24, 12:00:32 AM] Yin Ling: Yup
[10/9/24, 12:00:36 AM] John Tan: Not as concept but as lived experience
[10/9/24, 12:00:46 AM] Yin Ling: Yup
[10/9/24, 12:01:02 AM] John Tan: So can u tell which is moving?
[10/9/24, 12:01:26 AM] John Tan: Is the stationary object moving or the 80km object?
[10/9/24, 12:01:27 AM] Yin Ling: When two is moving sometimes its hard to tell unless one is rooted
[10/9/24, 12:01:44 AM] Yin Ling: Like sometimes u think the trees are moving on the road when you drive
[10/9/24, 12:01:53 AM] Yin Ling: As a kid
[10/9/24, 12:02:25 AM] Yin Ling: The 80km moving object is moving ?
[10/9/24, 12:02:40 AM] John Tan: U can't know
[10/9/24, 12:02:46 AM] John Tan: Motion is relative
[10/9/24, 12:03:01 AM] Yin Ling: Huh
[10/9/24, 12:03:06 AM] Yin Ling: Confused lol
[10/9/24, 12:03:30 AM] John Tan: U will not know which is moving although motion is experienced
[10/9/24, 12:03:53 AM] Yin Ling: Oh if u have nothing to compare
[10/9/24, 12:03:55 AM] John Tan: We often think we know things through its properties inherent in things, but it was never like that
[10/9/24, 12:04:26 AM] Yin Ling: Meaning if we move at 80km/h but there is nothing else that moves at a different speed we can’t tell motion?
[10/9/24, 12:04:28 AM] Yin Ling: Right
[10/9/24, 12:04:45 AM] Yin Ling: But when there’s a rooted object then there’s relative motion
[10/9/24, 12:04:53 AM] John Tan: The 80km/hr is never in the thing itself nor is the movement or stationary
[10/9/24, 12:05:04 AM] Yin Ling: Oh yes that is correct
[10/9/24, 12:05:33 AM] John Tan: It requires a relational or dependencies
[10/9/24, 12:05:52 AM] Yin Ling: Correct
[10/9/24, 12:06:07 AM] John Tan: Now is there such a thing call emptiness without dependent arising?
[10/9/24, 12:06:19 AM] Yin Ling: Ahahah no
[10/9/24, 12:06:33 AM] Yin Ling: It is empty coz it dependently arise
[10/9/24, 12:07:04 AM] John Tan: Ppl like to talk just about emptiness as one truth. But fluxing insubstantiality means dependency
[10/9/24, 12:07:39 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah emptiness essentially already means no one truth
[10/9/24, 12:07:52 AM] John Tan: When u see change even like the ethereal rainbow, it involves parts
[10/9/24, 12:08:11 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah
[10/9/24, 12:09:11 AM] John Tan: Like though sensations, smell, thoughts...etc. u can pin it... insubstantial and flux...seemingly doesn't involve parts
[10/9/24, 12:09:21 AM] John Tan: But it involve parts
[10/9/24, 12:09:26 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah
[10/9/24, 12:09:34 AM] Yin Ling: Gravity
[10/9/24, 12:09:35 AM] John Tan: U can't pin down
[10/9/24, 12:09:57 AM] John Tan: I mean even if u can't pin down it involves parts
[10/9/24, 12:09:58 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah it seemingly doesn’t involve parts
[10/9/24, 12:10:16 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah
[10/9/24, 12:10:20 AM] Yin Ling: Makes sense
[10/9/24, 12:11:07 AM] John Tan: When we say where does sound arise, in the air, the stick, the bell or in the brain or in the insubstantial mind
[10/9/24, 12:11:54 AM] John Tan: We r dealing with dependent and relational parts
[10/9/24, 12:12:50 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah
[10/9/24, 12:14:27 AM] John Tan: In chandrakirti chariot analysis, the presentation of the chariot and their parts, is not to say chariot does not exist. [It is] To tell us that chariot dependencies with parts is like how the world is
[10/9/24, 12:15:15 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah
[10/9/24, 12:15:40 AM] John Tan: Bec we see inherently we can't understand how dependent relation works
[10/9/24, 12:16:14 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah makes sense
[10/9/24, 12:16:37 AM] John Tan: We kept looking for inherent parts...our mind kept thinking what [how] can there be parts if there is no inherentness
[10/9/24, 12:17:19 AM] John Tan: How can non-inherent appearances have causal efficacies
[10/9/24, 12:17:39 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah but it’s exactly opposite
[10/9/24, 12:17:42 AM] John Tan: But our actual experiences are all demonstrating that
[10/9/24, 12:17:49 AM] Yin Ling: Yup lol
[10/9/24, 12:18:05 AM] Yin Ling: Feels very inherent one
[10/9/24, 12:18:09 AM] John Tan: Yes
[10/9/24, 12:18:20 AM] John Tan: We touch something, we think it is there
[10/9/24, 12:18:31 AM] John Tan: Objectively there
[10/9/24, 12:18:42 AM] Yin Ling: Yup
[10/9/24, 12:18:53 AM] Yin Ling: We must always find a inherent cause
[10/9/24, 12:19:03 AM] John Tan: We think inherently
[10/9/24, 12:19:50 AM] Yin Ling: Would thinking non inherently reduce suffering ?
[10/9/24, 12:20:01 AM] John Tan: Definitely
[10/9/24, 12:20:23 AM] John Tan: The cause of suffering comes from that
[10/9/24, 12:20:28 AM] Yin Ling: Example?
[10/9/24, 12:20:46 AM] John Tan: The mind tendency to pin down is the cause of grasping
[10/9/24, 12:21:16 AM] John Tan: U know that if u don't hold, u can sleep
[10/9/24, 12:21:18 AM] John Tan: Lol
[10/9/24, 12:21:40 AM] John Tan: But fear inadvertently originates subconsciously
[10/9/24, 12:22:42 AM] John Tan: Is rejection a form of holding in disguised?
[10/9/24, 12:24:37 AM] John Tan: Inherentness is a form of pinning down
[10/9/24, 12:25:02 AM] John Tan: Rejection is also a form of pinning down
[10/9/24, 12:25:11 AM] John Tan: In an opposite direction
[10/9/24, 12:26:07 AM] John Tan: But it is a habit of reaction
[10/9/24, 12:26:42 AM] John Tan: It works on how u take and experience things
[10/9/24, 12:27:13 AM] John Tan: But it is a slow and gradual progress
[10/9/24, 12:28:15 AM] John Tan: Yes but also we must see that although we understand it is not deep enough proven by the fact that we still see things objectively and inherently
[10/9/24, 12:29:01 AM] John Tan: Like hearing an ambulance siren, by default we think it comes from the car
[10/9/24, 12:29:06 AM] John Tan: The ambulance
[10/9/24, 12:30:12 AM] John Tan: We never think of dependent arising esp [especially] it requires our mind
[10/9/24, 12:31:17 AM] John Tan: When u touch mind directly, everything is mind and become mind-like
[10/9/24, 12:31:47 AM] John Tan: Everything now is pervaded by clarity
[10/9/24, 12:32:22 AM] John Tan: Then u have to balance it with dependent origination
[10/9/24, 12:33:38 AM] John Tan: If we contemplate regularly, we will begin to see the rainbow like quality is a dependent arising
[10/9/24, 12:34:00 AM] John Tan: Then ur mind opens up to intimacy of everything
[10/9/24, 12:34:40 AM] John Tan: When u see non-inherentness, it must at the same open up to all its parts
Also related: My Favourite Sutra, Non-Arising and Dependent Origination of Sound
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