https://www.facebook.com/share/p/aJjzmseiwoHom1jE/?
Update, new post:
Soh:
I just coincidentally read a quote by Acarya Malcolm days ago which I agree:
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=606932
“There is no source, no pure love, or anything like it. The highest manifestation of consciousness is a person who has realized how things are 100%, in other words, a buddha.
Now, to the extent that Buddhas are motivated by love, the wish that sentient beings be happy, we can say they are embodiments of love. But there is nothing at all mysterious about that, just as there is nothing mysterious about a mother’s love for an only child.”
“If things arose out of dharmakāya, we would all be awakened from the beginning.
We say, in a general way, that "everything arises out of emptiness" as a metaphor for not being able to find a ultimate source for anything. As Nāgārjuna puts it, "empty things arise from things that are empty."”
If anything, love is simply part of the potentialities:
" - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../madhyamaka...
those who assert they are not nominal but truly existent has fallen into extreme views
as for the shentong views of intrinsic qualities, it can lend itself to substantialist views easily
instead one should see this way:
9/3/2012 11:38 PM: John: Namdrol pointed out diff between shentong and dzogchen... The potentiality and full form...cut and paste that as that is important.
9/3/2012 11:39 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Ok
9/3/2012 11:40 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Saved it in my email. Malcolm Smith
The problem with shentong, which CHNN has addressed many times, is that in Dzogchen the result exists as a potentiality of the basis; but in Shenton it is fully formed at all times. For this reason, in several retreats ChNN has declared that shentong is incompatible with Dzogchen.
...
9/4/2012 1:54 AM: John: His current practice of seeing awareness as a background
9/4/2012 1:54 AM: Soh Wei Yu: I see
9/4/2012 1:54 AM: Soh Wei Yu: I guess he won't see it as background anymore then
9/4/2012 1:54 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Doesn't seem compatible
9/4/2012 1:55 AM: John: So no awareness, whatever arises is
9/4/2012 1:55 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
9/4/2012 1:56 AM: John: U understand what namdrol mean?
9/4/2012 1:56 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Shentong? One is buddha nature is empty of any inherent attributes, manifesting according to conditions
9/4/2012 1:57 AM: Soh Wei Yu: The other is buddha nature is already replete with all the qualities of buddhahood and just needs to discove
9/4/2012 1:57 AM: John: No good...u r filling words not knowing the meaning
9/4/2012 1:58 AM: John: And what u said is completely out
9/4/2012 1:59 AM: Soh Wei Yu: I think its like what I wrote before
9/4/2012 1:59 AM: Soh Wei Yu: In the past I had the idea that there is an inherently existing Self waiting to be discovered
9/4/2012 2:00 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Now I see that everything is being "created" or actualized by conditions, nothing inherent
9/4/2012 2:00 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Including buddha-nature
9/4/2012 2:00 AM: John: How this relates to what namdrol said
9/4/2012 2:01 AM: John: Tell me line by line what he meant...u like to gross around
9/4/2012 2:09 AM: John: tell Christ, just joking...no offence.
9/4/2012 2:09 AM: John: Lol
9/4/2012 2:10 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Haha ok
9/4/2012 2:14 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Malcolm Smith
The problem with shentong, which CHNN has addressed many times, is that in Dzogchen the result exists as a potentiality of the basis; but in Shenton it is fully formed at all times. For this reason, in several retreats ChNN has declared that shentong is incompatible with Dzogchen.
59 minutes ago Like
9/4/2012 2:19 AM: Soh Wei Yu: in Dzogchen the result exists as a potentiality of the basis: means the result (buddha's qualities) arises as one of the possible appearance of luminous emptiness. But it is nothing inherently existing anywhere, merely manifest when conditions are there. It is in the form of actualizing buddha nature through conditions. "in Shenton it is fully formed at all times." The buddha qualities are inherently existing in ourselves, so there is no need for any conditions and it is only a matter of discovering something inherent. This teaching does not factor conditionality in terms of result and may have a danger of inherent view
9/4/2012 2:19 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Not sure if I'm right
9/4/2012 2:20 AM: John: Sort of
9/4/2012 2:20 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Arising as potentiality also means without conditions nothing manifest, nothing inherent
9/4/2012 2:20 AM: John: Yes
Madhyamaka, Cittamātra, and the true intent of Maitreya and Asaṅga self.Buddhism
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Madhyamaka, Cittamātra, and the true intent of Maitreya and Asaṅga self.Buddhism
Madhyamaka, Cittamātra, and the true intent of Maitreya and Asaṅga self.Buddhism
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——
Soh Wei Yu
This Heart (Suchness) Free from Taints
How incredible; how amazing; that emptiness is intertwined with compassion.
18 Comments
André A. Pais
Intertwined may not be the best term. It sounds like 2 things brought together.
Geovani Geo
Which term would you use?
André A. Pais
No
term is perfect, but perhaps inseparable, one with, of one taste, etc.
Intertwined is a very visual thing, like 2 strings spinning around each
other. Imo. I'm not native of the English language.
John Tan
Geovani Geo y incredible and amazing?
Geovani Geo
John Tan, well.... I did not expect you to ask that... so lets say its a special koan just for you
John Tan
Geovani
Geo lol. Usually ppl only say it is "incredible" and "amazing" due to
"inseparability" or "interwined" because it was once thought to be
distinct and separated.
The
buddhist term used is "non-arisen" in the sense that "separation" never
existed in the first place; therefore compassion is not the result of
realizing emptiness, not a cause-effect relationship.
Geovani Geo
Maybe
we mean the same although what you wrote sounds a bit too 'mental'. And
whatever I could say will also sound 'mental', but...
Emptiness has a heart - amazing!
John Tan
Geovani
Geo Emptiness is for us to realize this heart (suchness) free from
taints (essence, references) other than that, it has no purpose. It is
not exactly a mental enterprise, quite contrary, it is the cessation of
such proliferated activities.
The
direct and simultaneity pointing to one's "heart" is another approach.
The issue is when practitioners authenticate suchness pre-maturely with
such approach without seeing through emptiness of "named phenomena",
they ended up fooling and losing themselves in wonderland.
Continued in comments below
Geovani Geo
Of
course, emptiness has no purpose. Even conventional space has no
purpose. The moment "emptiness" gives raise to intellectual fabrications
of any kind its already wonderland. The farther I can go with this
right now, without any reference to any 'school' or 'teaching', is to
say that 'emptiness' is the realization of absolute lack of references
as time or location.
"Emptiness
has a heart", is not pointing to any specific area of the body, its not
some tantric teaching or approach. It is a an insight that occurred
here regarding the all-good intent of impersonal suchness. But now,
again, 'all-good' and 'intent' have no known moral or causal
connotations that the localized conditioned mind could deal with in any
way.
John Tan
Geovani Geo what is the "emptiness" u r talking about?
Geovani Geo
The
question made using a 'what', makes no sense, John. As I wrote above:
"The farther I can go with this right now, without any reference to any
'school' or 'teaching', is to say that 'emptiness' is the realization of
absolute lack of references as time or location."
John Tan
Geovani
Geo don't be immobilized. It will lead u nowhere. Emptiness is not to
mislead u into a position where one can't clearly discern left from
right. It is clear and conventions has valid connotations.
John Tan
Geovani Geo if however u r referring to direct pointing to one's mind that is a different matter.
Geovani Geo
What do you mean by "don't be immobilized"?
John Tan
Geovani Geo just let it be.
Geovani Geo
But
the realization of emptiness, of its natural unborn heart is tantamount
to total 'letting it be'. It is the opposite only if 'emptiness'
becomes conceptual.
Geovani Geo
About
"mind', it depends on the meaning, right? It can refer to the
conditioned ground of the localized 'human', or the ineffable empty
ground of all there is.
Reply
1d
Labels: Emptiness, John Tan, Suchness |
"The
purpose of anatta is to have full blown experience of the heart --
boundlessly, completely, non-dually and non-locally. Re-read what I
wrote to Jax.
In
every situations, in all conditions, in all events. It is to eliminate
unnecessary contrivity so that our essence can be expressed without
obscuration.
Jax
wants to point to the heart but is unable to express in a non-dual
way... for in duality, the essence cannot be realized. All dualistic
interpretation are mind made. You know the smile of Mahākāśyapa? Can you
touch the heart of that smile even 2500 yrs later?
One
must lose all mind and body by feeling with entire mind and body this
essence which is 心 (Mind). Yet 心 (Mind) too is 不可得
(ungraspable/unobtainable).. The purpose is not to deny 心 (Mind) but
rather not to place any limitations or duality so that 心 (Mind) can
fully manifest.
Therefore
without understanding 缘 (conditions),is to limit 心 (Mind). without
understanding 缘 (conditions),is to place limitation in its
manifestations. You must fully experience 心 (Mind) by realizing 无心
(No-Mind) and fully embrace the wisdom of 不可得
(ungraspable/unobtainable)." - John Tan/Thusness, 2014
Dzogchen: Beyond Cause and Effect
(r)
"Because (followers of anuyoga) do not understand that the phenomena of
the universe, however they appear, are the Source, just-that-ness, they
see space and wisdom (respectively as) cause and effect. Because they
affirm the cause and deny the effect, (they have) obstacles until (they
develop) confidence in (dzogchen) that transcends both affirmation and
negation."
"Followers
of anuyoga do not understand that all phenomena of the universe,
however they appear, are the state of Pure Perfect Presence, the Source,
just-that-ness. They see a duality of cause and effect, in which the
two aspects -- the emptiness of space and the luminosity of wisdom --
are, respectively, earlier cause and later effect. They affirm the
production of the effect from the cause, but deny the dependence of the
cause upon the effect. They do not understand that all phenomena are the
essence of self-originated wisdom, which primordially transcends
arising, ceasing, accepting, and rejecting based upon cause and effect.
Thus they have the obstacle of not understanding the authentic state,
the real condition, until they correctly acquire confidence in the
fundamental principle of ati dzogchen that transcends both affirmation
and negation."
-
Ornament of the State of Samantabhadra: Commentary on the All-Creating
King, Pure Perfect Presence, Great Perfection of All Phenomena
A discussion based on the above sharing:
RC: There is no where to go and no experience that requires correcting.
I
don't follow the distinction that is being made in the sentence "they
affirm the production of the effect from the cause but deny the
dependence of the cause on the effect"
Soh
Wei Yu (Me): If you have some notion that there is a space behind
phenomena out of which phenomena is later created, that is dualism. All
phenomena are one's own state, one's own essence, nature and energy.
The
notion of true origination is erroneous. For example, there is no such
thing as sunlight truly created by the sun as the sun is designated in
dependence on sunlight, it's not that sun precedes sunlight. Sun has no
sun-essence apart from shining and shining has no essence of its own
apart from sun. Father is also designated in dependence on the son, the
cause does not truly precede its effects. If you think the father could
exist without the son, then you are affirming the producer of the effect
independently of the effect. In truth, the son, the love for the son
'actualizes' the father. Both are merely designated in dependence
without any independent reality. In truth, sunlight/manifestation is
non-originated, non-arising. There is no that which produces and that
which is produced when both are merely/dependently designated.
Stian: Nice pointing, thanks. I got a sense of it.
RC:
Richard Cooper So we are saying that concepts rely on one another to
create the perception of a universe/the world we experience.
That
there is perception going on seems to be a bit of a sticking point for
me. The emptiness of "external" phenomena seems a lot more obvious.
Soh
Wei Yu (Me): Yes, the concepts of inherently existing
entities/realities, cause and effect (one that could precede another),
and so forth.
Perception
already has loaded connotations with it, as it implies a perceiver and a
perceiving. Same in fact for the term "awareness" if understood
incorrectly. But these terms are not an issue as long as you understand
that perception has no self-existence apart from perceiving/perceiver
and perceiver/perceiving has no self-existence apart from perception,
they are all merely designated in dependence but does not refer to some
independent or inherently existing reality.
As
for the non-referential "basis" or "ground" which you may call
"perception", perhaps a better word would be "presence" or better yet
"presencing". Whatever is vividly appearing is simply "presencing". "all
phenomena of the universe, however they appear, are the state of Pure
Perfect Presence"
There is no denial of that direct experience of Presence. It's just whether it's understood properly
If
we talk about pure perfect presence as the source, it's very easy to
fall into an ontological notion of creator-creation dualism. And this is
the reason for the clarification above regarding cause and effect.
Joel Agee
I posted this on another list. Jackson suggested I post it here:
Here
are two sentences from one of the oldest Dzogchen texts, The
All-Creating Monarch (Kunjed Gyalpo) quoted in Longchenpa's Precious
Treasury of the Way of Abiding (Richard Barron's translation):
“Seek the location of the heart essence through phenomena that derive from it
and come to appreciate it through the skillful means of not conceptualizing in any way whatsoever.
Since the heart essence occurs naturally, dharmakaya is not elsewhere.”
Coming across these lines had a vividly awakening effect on me.
Like · · Unfollow Post · September 2, 2012 at 1:29pm
Dannon Flynn, Steven Monaco, Mr NK and 6 others like this.
Joel
Agee Simple but profound and ongoing: a deconstruction of an
unconscious habit of locating awareness anywhere else than in the
moment-to-moment transient phenomena. Whoosh! No observer, no witness.
No location!
September 2, 2012 at 1:44pm · Unlike · 10
David Vardy No location but 'here' in the heart....
September 2, 2012 at 1:46pm via mobile · Like · 2
Chris Collins You're finding a deepening clarity in transcient phenomena ? Can you explain any more ?
September 2, 2012 at 1:48pm via mobile · Like
Joel Agee David: Yes, definitely. And your putting "here" in quotes feels accurate, because that too is unfindable.
September 2, 2012 at 1:50pm · Like · 2
Joel
Agee Chris, I'm not sure I can explain exactly. There's a frequent and
delightful experience of being "confirmed" by sounds and sights,
especially sounds. Greater appreciation of what shows up from moment to
moment, a kind of energy of being available for anything. More
spontaneous ease in action and speech and thought. But in a way this is
all secondary. The recognition of awareness is unobstructed. Sometimes
it seems to be obscured by thoughts and feelings, and then it's obvious
that those too are the clarity and the emptiness. RIght now there's joy
in seeing and saying this.
September 2, 2012 at 2:01pm · Like · 10
Joel Agee David: By "that too is unfindable" I meant the "here" in which the heart is alive.
September 2, 2012 at 2:07pm · Like · 1
David Vardy Joel. Is there a sense of here being 'all front, no back'?
September 2, 2012 at 2:40pm via mobile · Like
Joel Agee No. No front and no back. Omnipresent betters describes it. But where is that?
September 2, 2012 at 2:41pm · Like · 3
Joel
Agee "back here" as a default location of awareness is no longer being
held. That seems to eliminate "in front" as the field of observation.
I'm not "observing" much. Everything happens, including movement,
thought, speech. And now sleep. Good night, if night is your time now!
September 2, 2012 at 2:52pm · Like · 8
Joel
Agee I feel great fondness for Douglas Harding and his teaching but
find it limited and limiting at this point. The experiments set up an
Advaita-like duality between "No-self/empty awareness/First Person here"
and "phenomena there." The wonderful writing describes Awareness as a
vast container in which everything takes place. Always this subtle
dualism.
September 3, 2012 at 5:43am · Like · 1
Joel
Agee Chris, I think you’re missing part of the point in what Soh is
talking about. Some concepts are held to be self-evident, so we never
question or even notice them. For instance, in my case until recently,
the view that awareness was a) something, and b) somewhere.
"Intellectually" I knew better, but in my unconscious organically based
felt sense, that was an unquestioned reality until those words in the
Kunjed Gyalpo jarred me out of that dream. So it’s not "just words,"
because words and concepts shape our experience when they are invested
with belief. This is true even of simple figures of speech. What Jackson
just wrote suggests, for instance, that Douglas’s term “Seeing” is
itself misleading if left unexamined.
September 4, 2012 at 12:09am · Unlike · 4
Joel
Agee Even the words in the Kunjed Gyalpo are not to be "believed". They
just direct the attention to something that is not contained in the
words.
September 4, 2012 at 12:12am · Like · 2
Chris
Collins I agree, but when clear, there is no such possibity of a belief
clouding anything. When the truth is known, beliefs are rendered
irrelivent. I don't miss his point as i said, prior to nondual clarity
there are many misconceptions.
September 4, 2012 at 12:13am · Like · 1
Joel
Agee I know what you mean. And I know what nondual clarity is. That's
how I know what you mean. Nevertheless, there is no underestimating the
tenacity of unconscious bonds. That's what Vipassana is good for. It's
not heavy-duty intellectual labor. It's noticing, and then looking more
closely.
September 4, 2012 at 12:19am · Unlike · 3
Joel Agee I was just going to add that I don't believe in God.
December 6, 2012 at 9:29am · Like
Joel
Agee "I Am" is one of the names of God. I don't believe in that either.
There is a great joyful doubt that works like a centrifuge whirling
away concepts. I love that self-generating energy of clearing in the
mental realm.
December 6, 2012 at 9:33am · Like
Joel
Agee The ocean-and-waves distinction collapses when awareness
recognizes itself as identical with experience. The ocean is the waves.
December 7, 2012 at 3:12am · Like · 1
Joel
Agee Even to say "awareness recognizes itself as experience" or
"awareness appears as experience" juggles two separate terms. At any
moment there's just "this."
December 7, 2012 at 3:20am · Like · 4
Joel
Agee Jackson, I find it impossible to believe any formulation that
takes the form "I am x." Even "I am" doesn't withstand scrutiny.
December 21, 2012 at 4:41am · Unlike · 4
Joel
Agee I will try to describe what it is that rings true for me in
Thusness’s words. I don’t have a theoretical preference for the early
Buddhist teachings over the later ones, including Dzogchen. In fact I
know very little about the Pali Canon. My approach isn’t conceptual or
theoretical at all. I look directly into the nature of my own
consciousness in silent, objectless sitting meditation – shikantaza if
you will. Whatever doesn’t meet the test of direct experience holds no
lasting interest for me.
Until
fairly recently, the metaphor of the mirror and its reflections seemed a
fitting image of my contemplative experience: that there is an
unchanging, ever-present, imperturbable awareness that is the absolute
ground and the very substance of phenomena, and that while this
motionless, contentless awareness-presence is inseparable from the
ceaseless coming and going of appearances, it also transcends everything
that shows up, remaining untouched, unstained, absolute and
indestructible.
A
couple of years ago I discovered Soh’s blog, Awakening to Reality, and
in it Soh’s account of his exploration of the Bahiya Sutta and the Zen
Priest Alex Weith’s report on his realization of Anatta through
practical application of the Bahiya Sutta. I saw then that Anatta was
not fully realized in my experience. The illusory nature of a separate
unchanging personal self had been seen through, but an unconscious
identification with “Awareness” or “rigpa” had taken its place.
Since
then, an unstoppable deconstruction of that impersonal background
identity has been happening in my contemplation and in my daily life.
There is still a noticeable attachment to the memory of that subtle Home
Base. It shows up as a tendency to "lean back" from the unpredictable
brilliance and dynamism of the moment into a static, subtly blissful
background presence. But there is no longer a belief in an Awareness
that is anything other than, or greater than, or deeper than, THIS
sound, THIS smile or stirring of emotion, THIS glance of light. There is
no Mirror that is not the reflections.
So
the shift in my experience and practice is not a preference for one
teaching over another. It’s an ongoing realization that direct contact
with the grain and texture of moment-by-moment experience is what Dogen
meant by “being awakened by the ten thousand things.”
January 2 at 3:20am · Unlike · 6
Joel
Agee Jackson, it's true that seeking ends with the recognition of
rigpa. There is nowhere further to go, and there's no deeper truth to
ferret out. I agree it is an immediate insight, not a gradual
acquisition of understanding. And yes, it involves no self-belief. But
what doesn't necessarily end and often passes unnoticed is the
unconscious habit of locating oneself in a kind of pseudo-rigpa that
subtly separates "awareness" from "phenomena." That persists, or maybe
more accurately, it recurs when the crystal clarity of rigpa is
intermittent, not stable. That was my experience, and I have observed
this tendency in others. That is why I have found the instructions of
the Bahiya Sutta helpful.
January 2 at 6:29am · Like · 2
Joel
Agee Yes, it does help. "Thought-free rigpa" doesn't mean the cessation
of thought, only the cessation of Namtok. Otherwise it would not be
possible to speak or write in the natural state.
......
Mr. AP
Post stage 5, a universal mind is seen through as false reification. Meaning, we reject such advaita notions of a monist universal mind/consciousness as a true self, nor do we accept a theistic notion of an external creator like the dualists or monotheists. We have elaborated a lot on this before so unless you wish for url references which I can provide (such as https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/the-tendency-to-extrapolate-universal.html or https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/08/no-universal-mind.html )
Nonetheless if you wish to call the mind (personal) or potentiality god, that is ok (although I am not often inclined to use this term unless it suits a specific audience), although it is an empty convention as per what Acarya Malcolm also wrote:
“And this so-called "god" aka basis [gzhi] is just a nonexistent mere appearance, that is, our primordial potentiality also has no real existence, which is stated over and over again in countless Dzogchen tantras.
For those whom emptiness is possible, everything is possible.
For those whom emptiness is not possible, nothing is possible.
-- Nāgārjuna.
...
Malcolm: This is completely inconsistent with the view of Dzogchen. The view of Dzogchen is that there is no basis or foundation at all. Also the doctrine of the two truths is absent in Dzogchen. Further, the view of Dzogchen is that everything, including buddhahood is completely equivalent to an illusion and therefore, uniform.
- https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=649959#p649959 “
——
The Heap of Jewels Tantra states:
From the nonexistent empty source of phenomena the primordial Adibuddha has always turned the wheel of Dharma as the intrinsic sound of empty dharmata through the special pristine consciousness of vidya without a beginning, middle, or an end.
——
Also, John Tan and I like this, very clear:
Malcolm’s translation of Longchenpa:
don de nges par rtogs 'dod na
dpe ni nam mkha' lta bur btag
don ni chos nyid skye ba med
rtags ni sems nyid 'gag pa med
If one wishes to ascertain the meaning of that,
the example is to examine "space-like."
The meaning is nonarising dharmatā.
The proof is the unceasing mind-essence.
In the commentary on this last line, the Chos dbying mdzod is cited:
"The proof is arising as anything at all from the potential (rtsal).
At the time of arising, there is no place of arising and no agent of arising.
If one examines the mere name, 'arising,' it is like space,
including everything in a great, impartial uniformity.
——
The Dalai Lama also wrote before:
“I do not mean chat there exists somewhere, there, a sort of collective clear light, analogous to the non-Buddhist concept of Brahma as a substratum. We must not be inclined to deify this luminous space. We must understand that when we speak of ultimate or inherent clear light, we are speaking on an individual level.”
——
Mr. AP
Devotion to a deity is ok like I wrote about Tara.
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2024/02/tara-and-manifestation.html
And there are many levels of deity practice, from kriya to maha and anu and ati yoga. The perspective and practice gets subtler and more profound the higher up you go.
Mr. AP
Author
Top contributor
Soh Wei Yu
You call devotion "okay" and I am saying it's crucial (for a
well-balanced realization). I'm not trying to change your mind about
this either, since I know you have your own path. But I still consider
it an oversight.
3h
3 hours ago
Reply
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Group expert
Mr. AP depends on person. I would not say it is an absolute necessity.
Acarya Malcolm and ChNN does not present Dzogchen as a devotional path either, it is primarily based on rigpa.
Shakyamuni Buddha also attained full enlightenment without focusing on devotional practices.
3h
3 hours ago
Reply
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Group expert
I do Tara practice everyday. I have quite some devotion to Tara if you read my story above.
But, I do not put this as a key practice for everyone. It depends on person.
I shared this with my admins days ago:
I see. I think doing some deity practice or simple ones like the 21 praises to tara may help ward off negative influences.
I
always have the feeling that buddhas and bodhisattvas are helping me
and had many miraculous encounters (waking state, not psychedelic
induced) including pleasant smells of other realms and telepathic
messages
Just
the other day i had a really hard time finding a cockroach. For hours
it was hiding from me. Then after chanting the 21 praises i told tara
please let the cockroach come out cos the helper is coming to clean up
my place tomorrow, she is definitely going to kill it. As soon as i
finished that thought, the cockroach ran out towards my direction, so i
used wet tissue to take it out and release into the wild. I felt some
compassion for the cockroach when i saw it
Later
on i re read the 21 praises and was reminded it mentioned that it wards
of things like pestilence, negative entities and so on
3h
3 hours ago
Reply
Edited
——-
Mr. AP
“Buddhism is nothing but replacing the 'Self' in Hinduism with Condition Arising. Keep the clarity, the presence, the luminosity and eliminate the ultimate 'Self', the controller, the supreme. Still you must taste, sense, eat, hear and see Pure Awareness in every authentication. And every authentication is Bliss.” - John Tan, 2004
“Understand immense intelligence not as if someone is there to act and direct, rather as total exertion of the universe to make this moment possible; then all appearances are miraculous and marvelous.” - John Tan, 2012
….
In January 2005, John Tan wrote:
“[19:21] <^john^> learn how to experience emptiness and no-selfness. :)
[19:22] <^john^> this is the only way to liberate.
[19:22] <^john^> not to dwell too deeply into the minor aspect of pure awareness.
[19:23] <^john^> of late i have been seeing songs and poems relating to the luminosity aspect of Pure Awareness.
[19:23] <^john^> uncreated, original, mirror bright, not lost in nirvana and samsara..etc
[19:23] <^john^> what use is there?
[19:24] <ZeN`n1th> oic...
[19:24] <^john^> we have from the very beginning so and yet lost for countless aeons of lives.
[19:25] <^john^> buddha did not come to tell only about the luminosity aspect of pure awareness.
[19:25] <^john^> this has already been expressed in vedas.
[19:25] <^john^> but it becomes Self.
[19:25] <^john^> the ultimate controller
[19:26] <^john^> the deathless
[19:26] <^john^> the supreme.. etc
[19:26] <^john^> this is the problem.
[19:26] <^john^> this is not the ultimate nature of Pure Awareness.
[19:27] <^john^> for full enlightenment to take place, experience the clarity and emptiness. That's all.”
And in March 2006, John Tan said:
<^john^> the different between hinduism and buddhism is they return to the "I AM" and clings to it.
<^john^> always "I" as the source.
<ZeN`n1th> icic
<^john^> but in buddhism it is being replaced by "emptiness nature", there is a purest, an entity, a stage to be gained or achieved is an illusion.
<^john^> there is none. No self to be found. No identity to assumed. Nothing attained.
<ZeN`n1th> oic..
<^john^> this is truly the All.
<^john^> so for a teaching that is so thorough and complete, why must it resort back to a "True Self"?
<ZeN`n1th> hmm but i got a question about just now you say impermanent... but mahayana texts also say tathagathagarbha is permanent right?
<^john^> yes but for other reasons.
<ZeN`n1th> what kind of reasons
<ZeN`n1th> wat you mean
<^john^> first you must know that there is really a very subtle difference between pure subjectivity and emptiness nature.
<ZeN`n1th> icic
<^john^> for one that has experienced in full emptiness nature, does he/she need to create an extra "True Self"?
<ZeN`n1th> so wat difference
<ZeN`n1th> no
<^john^> he already knows and experiences and completely understand the arising cause and conditions of why the "true self" was created...
<^john^> will he still be confused?
<^john^> he knows exactly what is happening, the reality of the 'self'.
<ZeN`n1th> icic..
<^john^> i would say it is due to his compassion to let the other sects have a chance to understand the dharma that he said so.
<^john^> this is what i think.
<^john^> but there is no necessity to preach something extra.
<ZeN`n1th> oic
<^john^> in light of emptiness nature, "True Self" is not necessary.
<ZeN`n1th> icic
<^john^> the so called "purest" is already understood, there is no clinging.
<^john^> there is hearing, no hearer...etc
<^john^> is already beyond "True Self".
<ZeN`n1th> oic
<^john^> yet it exactly knows the stage of "True Self".
<^john^> if there is no hearing...then something is wrong.
<^john^>
<^john^> but there is hearing but no hearer.
<ZeN`n1th> hahaha
<ZeN`n1th> oic
<^john^> put your time into practice and understanding of no-self and emptiness.
<^john^>
<ZeN`n1th> ok
— excerpts from https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/10/buddha-nature-vs-brahman.html
——-
2006:
(9:06 PM) John: so i said extend it to the six senses, presence without self
(9:06 PM) John: sound without hearer
(9:06 PM) John: scenery without seer
(9:06 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:06 PM) John: everything to experience and understand anatta
(9:07 PM) AEN: icic
(9:07 PM) John: so that "AMness" presence is experienced in all moment without the need to fall back.
(9:07 PM) AEN: oic
(9:07 PM) John: how could there be movement then?
(9:08 PM) John: it is just arising and ceasing
(9:08 PM) John: because there is no moment that is not so.
(9:08 PM) AEN: icic
(9:08 PM) AEN: ya
(9:08 PM) AEN: that is not wat?
(9:09 PM) John: that is not arising and ceasing according to conditions and causes
(9:09 PM) John: emptiness
(9:09 PM) John: this must be understood after clarity
(9:09 PM) AEN: oic
(9:10 PM) John: but there cannot be any movement, because there is no moment that is not like that
(9:10 PM) AEN: icic
(9:11 PM) John: then from this complete clarity, emptiness, no movement, yet everything wonderfully arises and ceases, one experiences the spontaneous arising, the self-so, the unconditioned
(9:11 PM) John: then there is true insight.
(9:11 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:11 PM) John: then karma will make sense
(9:12 PM) John: because of arising without self
(9:12 PM) John: arises with causes and condition without self
(9:12 PM) John: therefore be serious about the deeds
(9:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:13 PM) John: in "AMness", how does karma step in?
(9:13 PM) John: he will be confused because "AMness" in its ultimate sense is a controller.
(9:13 PM) AEN: icic
(9:14 PM) John: all these are words, it is the true experience that is most crucial.
— excerpt from https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/07/this-is-impersonality-aspect-not-anatta.html
2006:
(11:00 PM) John: it rests sort of absorption yet awareness in the moment to moment
(11:01 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:01 PM) John: this is just the beginning of experiencing anatta in the correct sense
(11:01 PM) John: till this experience is stabilized
(11:01 PM) AEN: oic
(11:02 PM) John: then one becomes transparent
(11:02 PM) John: transparency is a very distinct experience
(11:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:02 PM) John: it is total vividness, clarity
(11:02 PM) AEN:
<^john^> in fact, ur master would want to experience that pure sensation resulting for differing condition
<^john^> but one should not over do it. :)
(11:03 PM) John: experiencing just the things
(11:03 PM) John: yes...it must come with realisation
(11:03 PM) John: not through will effort
(11:03 PM) AEN: oic
(11:03 PM) John: that is the realisation brings and carries us naturally to this experience
(11:04 PM) John: the realisation and experience of anatta...
(11:04 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:04 PM) John: if we forcefully do it, we will not be able to make it.
(11:04 PM) John: however it is a good practice
(11:05 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:05 PM) John: to reverse the habitual energy of continuous symbolizing
(11:06 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:06 PM) John: once transparency is experienced the first fruition of insight samadhi is experienced.
(11:06 PM) AEN: oic
(11:07 PM) John: this stage is important. :)
(11:07 PM) John: for now, i want to put it more clear to longchen later...
(11:07 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:07 PM) John: the part of stage 5 must be led forward by DO otherwise one will sink back to a source
(11:08 PM) John: very often, this is the case
(11:08 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:09 PM) John: so don't underestimate the simple sentence of "manifestation is the source"
(11:09 PM) AEN: ok
(11:09 PM) John: it is the key to non-duality then lead to DO.
(11:09 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:09 PM) John: it must be DO (dependent origination) that lead one out of the source.
(11:09 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:10 PM) John: then all broken pieces will slowly fall into place
(11:10 PM) John: otherwise we will have all those funny theories like reality is lila
(11:10 PM) John: a game plot of God.
(11:10 PM) AEN: oic
(11:10 PM) John: :)
(11:11 PM) John: that is because causes and conditions is not understood
(11:11 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:11 PM) John: and how awareness becomes causes and conditions
(11:11 PM) AEN: oic
(11:12 PM) John: when luminosity-emptiness is experienced in its total state, then it is dharmakaya
(11:12 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:12 PM) John: by experiencing the luminosity aspect itself is not enough
(11:13 PM) AEN: oic
(11:13 PM) John: it is at best not to tok about transcendental body
(11:13 PM) AEN: lol ok
(11:14 PM) John: and should not confuse ppl unnecessarily
(11:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:15 PM) John: actually my intention of toking about stage 5, manifestation is the source is only to longchen initially
(11:16 PM) John: and later JonLS.
(11:16 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:16 PM) John: not to others as it will only confuse them
(11:16 PM) AEN: icic
(11:17 PM) John: do u know that longchen almost gave up once?
(11:17 PM) AEN: haha how come
(11:17 PM) AEN: when
(11:17 PM) John: forgotten. :P
(11:17 PM) AEN: o i remember something like he doesnt want to be liberated.. or something
(11:17 PM) John: yeah
(11:17 PM) AEN: lol
(11:17 PM) AEN: icic
(11:17 PM) AEN: i remember
(11:18 PM) John: cause the time is not right and it will only have reverse effect
—-
2006:
(11:44 AM) John: there is another danger about just having the experience of our luminosity and anatta without placing emphasis on our emptiness nature.
(11:44 AM) John: life becomes just a manifestation of the divine
(11:44 AM) John: and the divine becomes like damn great...
(11:44 AM) AEN: oic..
(11:44 AM) John: actually the divine cannot do anything...lol
(11:44 AM) John: that is why there is never an 'I'. :P
(11:45 AM) AEN: icic..
(11:45 AM) John: and action is karma.
(11:45 AM) AEN: oic
(11:45 AM) John: and unwholesome action results in suffering
(11:45 AM) John: this must be known
(11:45 AM) AEN: icic..
(11:46 AM) John: i think this will gradually evolve and unfold.
——-
Mr. AP the texts i pasted is not pointing to devotion but how to overcome wrong reification of a source
——
Mr. AP devotion is more important for theistic and faith based paths like christianity.
For buddhism, wisdom is primary and key to liberation. Devotion is secondary but can still be an important factor of the path. Faith is an important factor even in the Theravada path and plays an even more crucial role in Mahayana and Vajrayana paths, although to varying degrees and is dependent on the type of practice involved.
But if you are of the highest calibre and can actualize self liberation all the time (and I am not saying this about myself) like Samantabhadra, you can be liberated without even the slightest devotion or virtue involved.
———-
Mr. AP ...At that moment do not be afraid of the yellow light, luminous and clear, sharp and bright, but recognize it as wisdom. Let your mind rest in it, relaxed, in a state of nonaction, and be drawn to it with longing. If you recognize it as the natural radiance of your own mind, even though you do not feel devotion and do not say the inspiration-prayer, all the forms and lights and rays will merge inseparably with you, and you will attain enlightenment...
~ Padmasambhava"
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/08/fearless-samadhi.html
Failing this recognition, down the bardo stages the practitioner is advised to have devotion and pray for rebirth in pure land based on a deity (like Amitabha) if I recall.
——-
Mr. AP
Devotion is also important when you are practicing surrendering to a higher power. But as I wrote before, such practices are pre anatta practices and only lead to impersonality. That is one of the four aspects of I AM to be refined post the I AM realization.
Post anatta practice takes different form but you can still practice devotion.
“2009:
(9:50 PM) AEN: icic..
but thats a form of practice rite
like surrendering
(9:50 PM) Thusness: nope
(9:51 PM) Thusness: surrendering requires u to have higher power
(9:51 PM) Thusness: requires to identify a higher subject for u to surrender to
it is an object of practice
(9:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:52 PM) Thusness: experience whatever is requires non-dual as pre-requisite
(9:52 PM) Thusness: there is just this empty luminosity
it is already whatever is
anything dual is not it
(9:53 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:53 PM) AEN: i remember david carse was saying surrendering is the way to experience non dual
something like that
(9:53 PM) Thusness: then it is surrendering
(9:53 PM) AEN: but he din say to a higher power or anything i tink
(9:54 PM) Thusness: whatever arises is mind that is why it is direct experience
(9:54 PM) Thusness: it is the highest form of insight
(9:54 PM) Thusness: u don't call surrendering self liberation
don't any mixed up
(9:56 PM) Thusness: when i experience whatever is, i breathe hard, i breathe soft, i rub my hands and legs
(9:56 PM) Thusness: what has that got to do with surrendering
surrender to what?
i eat, i blink my eyes
(9:56 PM) Thusness: what has that got to do with surrendering
don't anyhow say
(9:57 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:57 PM) Thusness: totally different
i walk, i jump
(9:57 PM) Thusness: all experiences are the ground
(9:58 PM) Thusness: all vividly present and spontaneous 'there'
carry water chop wood
(9:58 PM) Thusness: are all just marvellous activities
this is experiencing whatever arises
(9:59 PM) Thusness: nothing to do with surrendering
(9:59 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:59 PM) Thusness: swallowing saliva
(9:59 PM) Thusness: don't talk about spontaneous perfection
(10:00 PM) Thusness: it is because the mind is already non-dual and deep realisation that all is already the ground based on these 2 insights, all experiences becomes that
(10:01 PM) Thusness: because one has already penetrated to the deepest most of insight that is why he can in all actions and movements, he is one with Tao.
(10:01 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:01 PM) Thusness: not because there is something to surrender to, that is to the liberated still a form of illusion.
(10:01 PM) Thusness: but as a skilful means of practice.
(10:03 PM) Thusness: what i told u is to tell u that it is wrong to say that but i don't want u to go tell ppl it is like that
(10:03 PM) Thusness: this is the problem with sentient being
(10:03 PM) Thusness: what said and advice is not followed but what told not to say is spoken
(10:04 PM) Thusness: ended up misleading ppl
like zen
(10:04 PM) Thusness: becomes mouth talk and a path of highest profundity becomes mouth talk
(10:04 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:04 PM) Thusness: don't do that
(10:04 PM) AEN: ok
(10:06 PM) AEN: wat do u tink about this:
(10:07 PM) AEN: "Finally, ultimately, the surrender and the Understanding are the same, even if they are apparently, in perception or experience, separated chronologically. The very concept of 'the total Understanding' necessarily includes surrendering for it begins with the willingness, "Thy will be done", and ends in seeing that one is not."
(10:08 PM) AEN: by david carse
(10:09 PM) Thusness: that is surrendering the self when the self is not thoroughly seen through
it is a way of practice
—-
“Session Start: Saturday, 5 June, 2010
(11:27 PM) Thusness: certainty of being when you focus on the 4 aspects till the peak and with right understanding, you will also have the same experience as anatta and emptiness. when you felt that the will of the source becomes your will, you become life itself, that is the same experience. actually all is the same experience except that buddhism provides the right understanding. in the experience of "I AM" and the article you posted about the divine, what is the peak of experience phase?
(11:48 PM) AEN: which article about divine?
Hmm im not sure
(11:49 PM) Thusness: the article about the source after "I AM"
(11:50 PM) AEN: is it like the 'sacred will of the world'
i mean the peak of experience
(11:51 PM) Thusness: after glimpses and realization of the source, when the divine will becomes your will. you must be able to experience every manifestation as the grace of divine will. so must understand this in terms of direct experience and right view. :) i will talk to you when we meet. do you know why there is the sensation of a 'divine will'?
(11:57 PM) AEN: bcos the sense of self is being let go... and its seen that everything is spontaneously arising from the source
(11:58 PM) Thusness: and what is this 'source' that seems to be doing the work?
(11:59 PM) AEN: consciousness, life?
(11:59 PM) Thusness: isn't "I AM" the consciousness?
(12:00 AM) AEN: ya but at the beginning it still feels like an individuated sense of presence... but then later its seen as more impersonal, like everything is merely the expression of the source
(12:00 AM) Thusness: first you must understand the separation is due to dualistic thought, thought separates. do you know what is the 'divine' will? the sensation due to "the sense of self is being let go... and its seen that everything is spontaneously arising from the source" causes the 'divine will'
(12:02 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:03 AM) Thusness: what is the divine will?
(12:03 AM) AEN: it means its happening due to the divine source, nothing is happening due to an individual will/agent/doer
(12:04 AM) Thusness: when someone hit the bell, anything due to divine will?
(12:05 AM) AEN: its also divine will bcos there is ultimately no separate person who acts, and no separate person who experience.. everything is manifested by the divine will... including every action that is spontaneously arising
(12:05 AM) Thusness: when someone hit the bell, anything so divine?
(12:05 AM) AEN: it’s a manifestation of consciousness
(12:05 AM) Thusness: no good no good. because of the lack of understanding of your nature. your nature is empty. what is this divine will? it is just DO [dependent origination]. because we think in terms of entity and the 'weight of this dualistic and inherent' tendencies makes us feel separate and inherent. instead of seeing 'DO', we see it as divine will. not knowing empty nature, we mistaken DO for divine will. not knowing no-self nature, we thought we are independent. when no-self is fully experienced and insight of anatta rises, you do not feel source as separated from 'you'
there is merely manifestation, empty luminosity. empty as in DO and therefore does not require 'divine will', yet all manifests due to empty nature, effortless and spontaneous. there is conditions that are required for manifestations. a 'divine will' is not necessary
(12:11 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:12 AM) Thusness: when a practitioner realizes no-self and anatta insight arises, he clearly sees conditions. there is no divine will to listen to, but whenever condition is, manifestation is. slowly understand this. do not see DO as something dead. see it as direct manifestation of your breathe just like you experience everything as the grace of this divine will. feel this grace of life everywhere. letting go of yourself completely and feel this life
(12:18 AM) AEN: oic.. i am writing my experience to lzls lol
(5:36 PM) Thusness: Lol. In Chinese
(6:12 PM) Thusness: the second experience is more of 天地同根,万物同体. (tian di tong gen, wan wu tong ti: heaven and earth have one root, ten thousand phenomena have the same substance)
(6:12 PM) Thusness: clouded by '我相' (wo xiang, self image, egoity)
(6:12 PM) AEN: what do you mean
(6:13 PM) Thusness: means the second experience is more of a realization on the same source.
much like ?
(6:13 PM) AEN: oic..
why you said clouded by wo xiang
(6:15 PM) Thusness: ? (xiang, image) is simply a construct. That is from a dualistic point of view, being 'connected' must always be the case. When you de-contruct personality, you merely discover. a practitioner must also be aware of the 'weight' of these constructs. from an empty point of view, when the tendency is there, it is also not right to say that the interconnected state is always there, always the case. Obviously 'you' are not 'connected'. when the 'construct' is strong, there is no such experience or when the 'personality' is there, there is no experience of '万物同体' (everything has the same substance/source). Or 'personality' is that very experience of individuality and therefore cannot have any experience of same 'source'. get it?
(6:19 PM) AEN: ic.. ya
(6:19 PM) Thusness: the former does not realize the causes and conditions for any arising. when we say it is always 'there' we are having 'absolute view'. If we cling to that, then that will prevent clear seeing. So what is the experience of 'individuality' like? it is the very experience of what practitioner before the 'connection' feel and understand. that is a state of reality, cannot be said to be determined or not.
(6:21 PM) AEN: oic.. what you mean by that is a state of reality cannot be said to be determined or not
(6:22 PM) AEN: hmm i think i get what you mean. so one must deconstruct the individuality otherwise there is no feeling of connection
(6:22 PM) Thusness: yes. for personality is the very state of individuality. what i want you to understand is not to have a pre-determined state.
(6:26 PM) AEN: ic... that means according to conditions we experience the connection, but its not always there?
(6:27 PM) Thusness: yes it is better to understand that way
(6:28 PM) Thusness: now when you experience certainty of being, you only experience the undeniability of your existence. doubtless, certain and present. but being connected to the source is different. it will also determine your later phase of practice. if you are attached to the Presence, what happened?
(6:31 PM) AEN: hmm. you mean when you are attached to Presence you will have difficulty seeing the connection?
(6:31 PM) Thusness: you wanted the state of Presence to transcend to the 3 states (waking, dreaming and sleeping) for you are only interested in that Certainty of Being. whereas when you realized the source, you don't do that. you are surrendering much like the christian. you are devoting. nothing is important besides serving the divine. sustaining the state of presence and devoting to a divine source is different. you sleep when it is time to sleep. whatever thy will is. in Presence, you still think of control, in surrendering, you realized you are being lived. Awareness is being done. it is almost the opposite, but then there is also the integration
(6:35 PM) AEN: oic.. Actually i think if we let go of control completely the presence is also naturally there, there is no need to try to control presence
(6:36 PM) Thusness: if you think that, that becomes a hindrance
(6:36 PM) AEN: oic how come
(6:36 PM) Thusness: coz you are torn in between. you are serving 2 masters. :P Presence and source. but then there is also the integration where divine will becomes your will. then in jacob ladder meditation, after realization and experience of the grace, it must be found everywhere. therefore you return to phase 1 of the ladder with new understanding. you are directly and intuitively experiencing all manifestations as the expression of life. where you and the divine become one, where phenomena and the divine becomes indistinguishable, as transient, as inner and outer world
(6:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:40 PM) Thusness: however that is because we are trying to express and understand this in an inherent and dualistic way. we speak in such a way because we are using a dualistic paradigm. and the experience seems difficult to reconcile and become seamless. so you must arise insight. you realized, what you call Self/self is just a label. this is very difficult to understand. then you are not trapped in 'reconnection' or surrendering.
You realized there is no-self (Soh: Thusness Stage 4 and 5). whatever experienced is vividly present and aliveness everywhere because what that 'blocks' is no more there through the arising insight. now how clear are you in directly experiencing sensation? in experiencing sound, color, sight, taste? the mind at present is more interested in the behind reality. so anatta transform the experience of individuality through insight, clear seeing. there is a difference in saying what you call Awareness has always been sight, sound, the scent of fragrance… and there is Awareness and there is sound, sight, taste… when you see and mature your insight of anatta, it is realized that wrong view is what that is causing the problem. however after that, you must practice directly
(6:48 PM) AEN: what do you mean practice directly
(6:48 PM) Thusness: means you don't think theoretically too much after the arising insight of anatta, there is a difference between thinking that a Weather truly exist and the changing clouds, the rain exist inside weather. get it? so when you took that to be real, it creates the problem of reification and intensifying the inherent existence of Self. if there is no-weight to the constructs, then there would be no problem. unfortunately, constructs are like spells. :)
(6:51 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:52 PM) Thusness: do you get what i meant? just experience first. feel this aliveness everywhere. in other words, what you realized is beyond ? (xiang4: [imputed] appearance), but you do not understand the impact of ? (xiang4: [imputed] appearance). anyway you can send your article to your lzls for comments. :)” - June, 2010
——
Mr. AP also the key to anatta is not just “not reifying source”
This is crucial:
2006
(10:55 PM) John: all along, the manifestation is really the source
(10:55 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:55 PM) John: once the extra source that is the habitual energy is given up, Presence is felt everywhere in all arising and ceasing
(10:56 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:56 PM) John: that is from moment to moment, Presence is experienced in varying conditions
(10:56 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:57 PM) John: from blinking eyes...moment to moment...in raising legs, standing up, feet touching ground...moment to moment...presence that is stage 1 is experience in all
phenomena arising and ceasing
(10:57 PM) John: only the thinking, the hearing, the seeing...
(10:57 PM) John: moment to moment
(10:57 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:57 PM) John: conditions shifts and changes
(10:58 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:58 PM) John: this must be very thorough then the luminosity-emptiness without sinking back to a Source can be experienced
(10:58 PM) John: this is the whole purpose of mindfulness
(10:58 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:59 PM) John: but it becomes tedious for a mind that has not experience no-self or stage 5
(10:59 PM) AEN: icic...
(10:59 PM) John: but to a person that has experienced stage 5, he wants to know even the minutest details
(10:59 PM) John: of every single moment...this i told u before right?
——
Mr. AP
Spend not even a thought moment for the source and dwell completely into the incredible realness of the phenomenal world (along with contemplating the two stanzas of anatta as seal, always already so), then you will breakthrough
2006:
(7:02 PM) John: the manifestation is the source, spend not even a moment of thought for the source.
(7:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:03 PM) John: the stage is the real within the apparent
(7:03 PM) AEN: oic...
(7:03 PM) AEN: eh
(7:04 PM) John: i think i wrote to u about telling longchen to dissolve the self in the incredible realness of the phenomenon
world right?
(7:04 PM) AEN: they never write correctly i tink
(7:04 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:04 PM) AEN: yea
(7:04 PM) AEN: by PM right?
(7:05 PM) John: hm...yeah....i wrote him another pm after he has a glimpse of it.
(7:05 PM) AEN: oh not sure whether u sent me
(7:05 PM) John: What about the unmanifested is the manifest?
(7:05 PM) John: din send u. :P
(7:05 PM) AEN: oic
(7:05 PM) AEN: manifest is unborn?
(7:05 PM) AEN: all dharmas are unborn
(7:06 PM) John: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unmanifested is the manifestation,
The no-thing of everything,
Completely still yet ever flowing,
This is the spontaneous arising nature of the source.
Simply Self-So.
Use self-so to overcome conceptualization.
Dwell completely into the incredible realness of the phenomenal world.
(7:06 PM) John: the last sentence is very important.
(7:06 PM) AEN: o icic
(7:07 PM) John: when is the part i told him about just the happening and spend not even a thought moment for the source?
——
2006:
(10:48 PM) John: when the mind turns away from the source and focus on manifestation, it forgoes images and realises its intimate relationship btw with the arising and ceasing
(10:48 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:48 PM) John: however it is not entirely clear yet due to habitual energy though the glimpse is strong
(10:48 PM) John: that it is the reality
(10:48 PM) John: but it is still not clear.
(10:48 PM) AEN: oic
(10:48 PM) John: this is a crucial state
(10:48 PM) John: very crucial in fact
(10:49 PM) John: in either sinking back to a source as in the advaita or buddhism anatta
…
…That is why “Manifestation is the Source” is crucial. When effort is not diverted to ‘returning to a source’
which is another ‘karmic doing’, the mind cease
(11:22 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:23 PM) John: the mind ceases to be anything but only this the ever arising and ceasing phenomena that manifest according to causes and conditions. Then the initial experience of
Pure Presence must be experienced in every moment of Arising and Ceasing in all its diversities and manifolds.
(11:23 PM) John: I refuse to talk about the One Reality for fear that it is mistaken as the Eternal Witness before the experience of no-self and emptiness nature due to the similarity
in descriptions.
What is the crucial condition that gives rise to the experience of All is the One Reality?
(11:23 PM) John: It is the intense moment-to-moment experience of Presence in all manifestation that gives rise to this understanding. That is, it is the vivid Presence in All
Phenomena Arising without entry and exit that serve as the condition. All descriptions pale when compared to the actual experience.
(11:24 PM) John: It is the same initial experience of Presence except that now it is experienced as the phenomena itself. This is the condition for the arising of noble wisdom to know
our true nature. This is the transparency of the ‘Self’ that gives rise to wisdom to see the Dharmakaya -- The body of truth.
(11:24 PM) John: With the stability of this experience, it gives birth to the Transcendent Body that is characterized by blissfulness, clarity, vividness and vitality as the first
level of fruition. There is no ending to this experience. May you experience the full truth of Dharma.
----
Someone asked me about a guru that focuses on devotion and surrender. I replied,
"entirely different path imo.
and
people like to project their gurus are deeply realized or attained full
enlightenment (but of course it is not the same as the sort of buddha's
enlightenment, even if they may think otherwise).
those types of teachers are like bhakti, hugging saint amma etc
they
may be self realized but its far diffferent from the path of prajna
wisdom found in buddhism (not to be mistaken as the path of jnana in
sanatana dharma, which also only leads to self-realization)
it
is precisely because they cannot give rise to prajna wisdom that they
need to resort to all these means to forgo self. but it is not thorough
and not the same as the anatta realization that severs self/Self, then
with further penetration all self and phenomena are realized to be
name-only and this emptiness/non-arisen nature of all named phenomena is
furthermore realized to be the very nature of illusory presencing
appearance, and the thorough insight into the union of dependent arising
and emptiness.
"John Tan's reply on something Malcolm wrote in 2020:
“This
is like what I tell you and essentially emphasizing 明心非见性. 先明心, 后见性.
(Soh: Apprehending Mind is not seeing [its] Nature. First apprehend
Mind, later realise [its] Nature).
First
is directly authenticating mind/consciousness 明心 (Soh: Apprehending
Mind). There is the direct path like zen sudden enlightenment of one's
original mind or mahamudra or dzogchen direct introduction of rigpa or
even self enquiry of advaita -- the direct, immediate, perception of
"consciousness" without intermediaries. They are the same.
However
that is not realization of emptiness. Realization of emptiness is 见性
(Soh: Seeing Nature). Imo there is direct path to 明心 (Soh: Apprehending
Mind) but I have not seen any direct path to 见性 (Soh: Seeing Nature)
yet. If you go through the depth and nuances of our mental constructs,
you will understand how deep and subtle the blind spots are.
Therefore
emptiness or 空性 (Soh: Empty Nature) is the main difference between
buddhism and other religions. Although anatta is the direct experiential
taste of emptiness, there is still a difference between buddhist's
anatta and selflessness of other religions -- whether it is anatta by
experiential taste of the dissolution of self alone or the experiential
taste is triggered by wisdom of emptiness.
The
former focused on selflessness and whole path of practice is all about
doing away with self whereas the latter is about living in the wisdom of
emptiness and applying that insight and wisdom of emptiness to all
phenomena.
As
for emptiness there is the fine line of seeing through inherentness of
Tsongkhapa and there is the emptiness free from extremes by Gorampa.
Both are equally profound so do not talk nonsense and engaged in profane
speech as in terms of result, ultimately they are the same (imo).”
Dalai
Lama - "Nature - there are many different levels. Conventional level,
one nature. There are also, you see, different levels. Then, ultimate
level, ultimate reality... so simply realise the Clarity of the Mind,
that is the conventional level. That is common with Hindus, like that.
So we have to know these different levels...." - Dalai Lama on Anatta
and Emptiness of Buddha Nature in New Book""
Tyler Jones
I completely agree that there are other dimensions to the spiritual path than the insights that the AtR model maps so well. (At the very least, those who believe in Buddhist maps will admit that arhatship or full Buddhahood is about more than this.) There are at least two different qualities that I want to tease out that are intertwined in your post: Unconditional-universal love and devotion. Devotion as a spiritual path is using the emotion of devotion directed toward something higher as rocket fuel for your path. One of my teachers speaks on the potential power of the devotional path, but clarifies that you have to have a certain disposition to follow it. It's no for everyone, in particular, it's not his path, and it doesn't seem that it was the path of the Buddha. Unconditional, universal love does not necessarily include this quality of devotion, but you don't need a certain disposition to access and make use of it. It can take you into jhana/samadhi territory and is recommend by the Buddha for numerous reasons as beneficial for the path.
Aditya PrasadTyler Jones Thanks for making this clarification. I find them to be closely related, even inseparable. The more I orient toward the intrinsic unconditional love of reality, the more my heart spontaneously opens to it in deep devotion. It appears to me that deeper knowledge about the "whys" and "hows" of reality creation is somehow connected to the development of this quality. I only bring it up now because I've recently spoken to a couple of other AtR members (who unlike me have deep insight per AtR) who have noticed something similar.
Soh Wei Yu+1
Tyler Jones You are right. Buddha did not follow a path of devotion based on what I've read and he also did not teach a path of devotion in his early teachings. He did however teach metta (loving kindness), and it will be able to lead to the sort of experience Aditya is eluding to. And yes indeed, in my limited experience with metta practice, it leads to a love that emanates and pervades from the heart chakra which leads to all pervading piti/bliss and jhana. A somewhat different flavor from for example, anapanasati induced jhana.
I have not read this book but it might be relevant:
The Heart of Unconditional Love: A Powerful New Approach to Loving-Kindness Meditation Paperback – Illustrated, March 31, 2015
by Tulku Thondup (Author)
4.5 4.5 out of 5 stars 50 ratings
See all formats and editions
A new, four-stage approach to the popular Buddhist practice known as loving-kindness meditation, with the aim of finding unconditional love in our own hearts, in our relationships, and in our perception of the world around us.
The unconditional love that we all long for—in our own lives and in the world around us—can be awakened effectively with this unique approach to the Tibetan Buddhist practice of loving-kindness meditation. Tulku Thondup gives detailed guidance for meditation, prayers, and visualization in four simple stages that can be practiced in as little as thirty minutes a session. The four-stage format is a brand-new approach being presented for the first time in English, distilled from the author's lifelong study and practice of authentic, traditional teachings.
What if we could experience not only our own body, mind, and heart as a boundless source of loving-kindness, but every particle of the world around us as a beautiful realm filled with the blessing energies of the Buddhas and their celestial abodes? The whole environment would become a miraculous display of unconditional love, wisdom, and power, accompanied by the sweet music of holy prayers and inspirational teachings. This is not just a dream or a fantasy but an effective meditation practice that can bring relief from stress, healing to mind and body, healthier relationships, and a positive new outlook on the world around you.
Loving-kindness meditations are a highly effective way to generate positive causation, bring true peace and love into our lives, and release ourselves from habitual suffering. When we train ourselves to desire the happiness and well-being of others, with the unconditional love of a mother who cares wholeheartedly for her little ones, we find our whole world pervaded by the positive qualities of joy, peace, and beauty. The training can be compared to sunbathing. As our body absorbs the sun's heat, it becomes warm and gradually emanates that warmth into our surroundings. In the same way, through devotion and trust in the Buddha of Loving-Kindness, we immerse our mind in his unconditional love, which we then radiate to those around us.
The Heart of Unconditional Love presents this meditation in a new, four-stage format distilled from the author's lifelong study and practice of authentic, traditional teachings. The meditation can be practiced in as little as thirty minutes a session:
• In the Outer Buddha Stage, we open our heart with trust and devotion to the Buddha of Loving-Kindness and enjoy his unconditional love.
• In the Inner Buddha Stage, we experience the Buddha's unconditional love within and for ourselves.
• In the Universal Buddha Stage, we learn to see, hear, and feel the world around us as a blessed realm of unconditional love.
• In the Ultimate Buddha Stage, we rest in the awareness of unconditional love free from conceptual thinking.
Designed to be accessible to newcomers as well as experienced meditators, this presentation is a brand-new approach to loving-kindness meditation, being published in English for the first time.