[9:09 PM, 8/4/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Just saw this in chnn book [Crystal and the Way of Light]:
we
could even go so far as to say that, essentially, in Dzogchen, the Base
is the primordial state, the Path is the primordial state, and the
Fruit is the primordial state—and that there is thus a perfect
continuity between them in that they all refer to the same thing: the
true condition of the individual and the universe.
[11:34 PM, 8/4/2020] John Tan: Yes.
[11:37 PM, 8/4/2020] John Tan: Practice as if you r buddha but u r not yet Buddha.
[11:38 PM, 8/4/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[11:41 PM, 8/4/2020] John Tan: I think U pasted to me right? Something like result is taken as the basis.
[11:42 PM, 8/4/2020] John Tan: So not from the view that life is impermanent, no-self and suffering.
[12:14 AM, 8/5/2020] Soh Wei Yu: What do u mean
[12:14
AM, 8/5/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oh taking buddha nature rather than
impermanence no self suffering as basis and path of practicing?
[12:15 AM, 8/5/2020] John Tan: Yes
[12:34 AM, 8/5/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Do you mean these excerpts by Malcolm:
There
are two ways be free of grasping: regarding all things as impure and
rejecting them as such (Hinayāna and common Mahāyāna), and regarding all
things as pure and accepting them as such. The latter method more
rapid, but requires special methods, so that it is not merely an
intellectual posture.
...
In sūtra there is no antidotal
method of conceiving the appearance of things as pure which are
typically conceived by ordinary sentient being as impure. Emptiness, in
sutra, is provided as cure for this, in terms of nature, but not in
terms of appearance. Vajrayāna address both nature and appearance; sūtra
only addresses nature, not appearance.
...
In common
Mahāyāna, like Hinayāna schools, relatively speaking, phenomena, other
than path dharmas, are still compounded, suffering, and not-self, and
hence impure. Their ultimate nature, emptiness, is pure.
In
uncommon Mahāyāna Secret Mantra, phenomena are rendered pure through
special methods which change our attitude towards phenomena.
[12:34 AM, 8/5/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ok
[12:35 AM, 8/5/2020] John Tan: Yeah
---
Malcolm wrote:
It is pretty straightfoward according to Mipham:
"In the realization of the Great Perfection that the
three times are not time, there are no phenomena of the ten directions and
three times that are not perfect. Therefore, this is the dharmakāya at the time
of the basis, but because the temporary afflictions have not been purified it
has not ripened into the nature of the result.
While maintaining the position, “This purification of any
obscurations is the feature of the time of path. This total purification of
obscurations is the feature of the time of the result,” is in accord with the
mode of appearance of sentient beings, from the perspective of the mode of
existence of dharmatā, it is not possible to move even slightly away from
abiding in state of uniformity which lacks any divisions of dualistic phenomena
such as division by three times, division into pure and impure, sentient beings
and buddhas, and so on."
Thus, florin and krodha are both correct. Florin is
correct from the point of view of mode of reality [gnas tshul], kyle is correct
from the point of view of the mode of appearances [snang tshul] for sentient
beings.
...
Krodha (Kyle Dixon):
Thanks. Although I suppose my gripe is that I'm willing
to (and strive to) account for both sides of the equation (mode of reality and
appearances) whereas Florin is solely clinging to the mode of reality and
declaring that the mode of appearances is irrelevant and "not
Dzogchen", which is essentially nihilism.
...
Malcolm:
The so called "primordial state" aka the
original basis is called "the basis" because it has not been
realized. When that is realized, it is given the name, "the result."
"The path" is just the method of realizing that, which in the case of
the Great Perfection, is the intimate instructions of the direct introduction
and their application.
Florin's point of view is influenced very much by
"sems sde", which is primarily about the basis. Your point of view is
more influenced by man ngag sde, which is more concerned with the methods of
realizing that basis.
Another useful snippet from Mipham:
According to that principle, though from the perspective
of ultimate reality it is necessary to propose that the universe and beings are
primordial buddhahood and meditate in that way, from the perspective of the
conventions of the mode of appearances, the differentiation by wisdom into
three — the basis, the reasoning that buddhahood is valid; the path, the time
of practice; and the result, the culmination of purification — are asserted up
to the Great Perfection. Also the treatises of the Great Perfection purpose
buddhahood once the fives paths of trekchö and the four visions of thögal are
finished, but in terms of the mode of appearances, they never assert the
accomplishment of buddhahood without finishing the path. When these two are
differentiated, after the darkness of doubt about the topics that any of the
vehicles of the cause and result have difficulty realizing, since there arises
the appearance of confidence knowledge that cannot be diverted, this
differentiation is very important.
...
Florin:
I dont really understand this quote.
I think it needs some work.
Malcolm:
All Mipham is saying is that there are two perspectives,
how things are and how things appear. From the perspective of how things are,
"it is necessary to propose that the universe and beings are primordial
buddhahood and meditate in that way."
From the point of view of how things appear, the basis,
path and result are divvied up by wisdom according their features: the basis
concerns proving the validity of buddhahood. This is why, for example, we have
the account of Samantabhadra's buddhahood and the account of the delusion of
sentient beings. There is also a practice, and also the culmination of the
purification of the delusion which gave rise to sentient beings in the first
place. Since only deluded people are concerned with liberation, the path of Dzogchen
is very much concerned with correcting the delusion that arises from ignorance
[ma rig pa] by remaining in the knowledge [rig pa] of how things actually are,
i.e. that the universe and beings are primordial buddhahood.
We are not approaching practice from the point of view of
accepting something that is not true, i.e., that the universe and beings are
impure, etc. But we must acquiesce that this is indeed how things appear to us,
and that as long as things appear in this way to us, we are under the influence
of the two obscurations, which while temporary and not innate, conceal from us
our actual state.
M
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