http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&p=132734

Hello Gregory,

Thank you for your comment.

You articulate your position very clearly, and I follow what you are saying here.

Thus, I suspect there is no misunderstanding on your part of my position. The notion of “emptiness” outlined by you is almost certainly the most common among informed Buddhists – not only practitioners but many scholars as well.

Having acknowledged that, I will say that some practitioners (myself for instance) and scholars (Hee-Jin Kim, and Gadjin Nagao for instance) disagree – strongly.

To try and indicate the central point where this disagreement rests, I will attempt to sum it up here by stating it in contrast to something you stated.

You wrote: Emptiness in one sense is the final stage of practice that is the interval between the diving board and the ocean. One can not get to realization of the ocean until jumping off into emptiness.

In contrast then, I would say – emptiness is the intermediary stage of practice-enlightenment realized upon entering the ocean “dying the great death” and “coming back to life” upon swimming all the way through.

Here, then, follows a more comprehensive and precise treatment of my understanding.

The central tenet of this doctrine; the Buddhist doctrine of “emptiness” (shunyata) is seen in the Buddhist axiom, “All things are essentially empty,” or “Emptiness is the true nature of all things.” From the perspective of emptiness all the various types of experience can be regarded as essentially the same. In other words, the various forms (i.e. dharmas) experienced as well as the various modes or types (objects of consciousness) of experience can be said to be constituted of/by the same true nature: emptiness. Indeed, “emptiness” is the primary metaphor for the “true” or “essential” nature of all things, beings, and events (i.e. dharmas).

Now, it is clear that this doctrine is commonly misunderstood as meaning dharmas are nonexistent, unreal, or as meaning that all dharmas are constituted of one and the same “substance” or “stuff” – that dharmas are “made up of” emptiness. Despite sectarian based Zen “assumptions” and “assertions” however such notions simply don’t wash with the teachings in the classic literature. In fact, it would be hard to see how Buddhism could be taken seriously outside of Buddhist sects if it did posit such an unsupportable view.

When the classic literature, including the Zen records, is considered from a nonsectarian unbiased viewpoint, it is clear that the doctrine of emptiness was developed to adequately account for the actual existence of the myriad dharmas, not to deny their existence – it is the reality of dharmas that allows emptiness to function as emptiness. Buddhism says “all things are empty,” not “all things are unreal” or “non-existent.” What are all things empty of? All things are empty of selfhood, empty of a separate self.

For example, let us apply the teaching of the Diamond Sutra to a particular “form” or “dharma” – a “goldfinch.” Now, a goldfinch is “empty” in that it lacks a “separate self.” The existence of a goldfinch can only be realized with the existence of water, food, air, and light – in the absence of these, the is no goldfinch; hence, a real existent goldfinch is water, food, air, and light, as well as feathers, beak, body, and wings. In short, a goldfinch is not the separate independent “self” that is identified as “goldfinch” – a goldfinch is empty of an (independent) self. What appears as “a goldfinch” is (totally inclusive of) “not-a goldfinch” (water, food, light, etc.), therefore it is a (real) goldfinch – in seeing the emptiness of a goldfinch, thus including “not-a goldfinch”; a goldfinch is seen as it is.

1 + 0 = 1 only if “1” is really a 1 and “0” is really a 0. Now, as the actual existence of 1 presupposes the actual existence of 0; and the actual existence of 0 presupposes the actual existence 1, the actual existence of “this particular dharma” (object of consciousness) presupposes the actual existence of “not-this particular dharma,” therefore “this particular dharma” is “this particular dharma” and “not-this particular dharma” is “not-this particular dharma.” Thus: 1 goldfinch + 0 (not) goldfinch = 1 goldfinch. And 1 goldfinch = (the reality of) 1 goldfinch + (the reality of) 0 (not) goldfinch. This example, which by extension applies to all dharmas, could be expanded by listing more of the dharmas constituting a goldfinch including its parents, environment, time, space, and so on up to and including all dharmas of existence-time.

In this way the prajna pararmita literature is clearly not advocating the “illusory” “temporary” or “unreality” of things, rather it demonstrates that it is actually the emptiness of selfhood that allows things to exist as they are (and allows emptiness to exist as it is). Thus Buddhism says, “Form (matter) is emptiness (the immaterial) and emptiness is form.” And the Zen masters elaborate on this pointing out that this verifies, “Form is form and emptiness is emptiness.”

When this principle is preached and realized, it is said that “matter is just the immaterial” and the immaterial is just matter. Matter is matter, the immaterial is the immaterial.
Shobogenzo, Mahaprajnaparamita, Gudo Nishijima & Mike Cross

To state the main points of this discussion in terms of the human experience of emptiness; all of the various “objects” of experience (i.e. sights, sounds, tastes, smells, tactile sensations, and thoughts) are empty; meaning the sameness of all objects of experience is their emptiness. Thus, the true nature of all the myriad dharmas is emptiness (the absence of independent selfhood). What, then, is the true nature of emptiness? The true nature of emptiness is all the myriad dharmas. To put the whole thing into Zen terms (as in Dogen’s example above) dharmas are emptiness and emptiness is dharmas, thus dharmas are (really) dharmas, emptiness is (really) emptiness.

Before moving on it is worth noticing that if all dharmas are empty, and all dharmas are objects of consciousness, then all dharmas are conscious subjects (upon which objects of consciousness are obviously inherently dependent). All subjects are subjects of objects, all objects are objects of subjects; objects are subjects, subjects are objects, therefore, objects are objects, subjects are subjects.

Besides the Diamond Sutra, Dogen’s Genjokoan offers another clear demonstration of the nonduality of emptiness and form. Here, Dogen presents the ability to “realize the koan” (genjokoan) as being enabled by “normal vision” or the “Dharma-Eye” (the vision of Buddhas), the activation of which is portrayed as a threefold process.

First is the ordinary view; the self sees dharmas as “other” (than the self). Second is the view from within the experience of emptiness; the self sees dharmas as “self” (i.e. dharmas as “other” vanish; self and other merge into oneness); herein “self” and “other” are experienced as lacking distinctness, hence there is “no self” and “no other” – only a uniform oneness. Third is the Buddha view; the self sees self as “other”; this occurs when, from the perspective of emptiness (i.e. the oneness of self and other) the self sees that despite their “oneness” the “other” (dharmas) appears and acts independently of the will/expectation of the “self.”

Notice that only with this third phase of realization (the Buddha view) can the nature of emptiness (experienced in the second phase) be truly appreciated as the nondual reality of “self and others.” The Buddha view manifests when/as the experience of emptiness discloses the true existential (ontological) nature of the reality of the self and the other is not a void, absence, or illusion, but the reality of “self and other” as it is. Self and other are distinct yet not-two, sovereign yet interdependent. With this, the true significance of nonduality is experientially verified: the reality of nonduality is the interdependence of nonduality and duality; the reality of duality is also the interdependence of nonduality and duality – in the absence of nonduality there could be no duality, in the absence of duality there could be no nonduality.

As duality and nonduality are coessential and coextensive, so too self and other are coessential and coextensive. To state the significant point in Dogen’s terms; emptiness is emptiness and form is form; the self is the self (not-self, therefore, self), the other is the other (not-other, therefore, other). In short, the distinct uniqueness of things, beings, and events (i.e. dharmas), far from being neutralized or negated by emptiness, is brought into relief and affirmed by it. Because emptiness is really emptiness as it is, dharmas (the particularities of the world/self) are really dharmas as they are. It is with clear insight into this aspect of reality, and a certain radical insistence on applying its implications in every facet of practice-enlightenment, that Dogen articulated his expressions on genjokoan.

Thanks again.
Ted

PS - Relevant passages from Hee-Jin Kim follow:

It is axiomatic in Zen Buddhism that delusion and enlightenment constitute a nondual unity (meigo ichinyo). For the sake of argument, let me formulate this dictum: Enlightenment is construed as seeing things as they really are rather than as they appear; it is a direct insight into, and discernment of, the nature of reality that is apprehended only by wisdom, which transcends and is prior to the activity of discriminative thought. In this view, delusion is defined as all that is opposed to enlightenment.

The problem with this reading is manifold: (1) There is an inherent tendency to bifurcate between "things as they really are" and "things as they appear to be"; (2) its corollary is that there is an unbridgeable chasm between insight/discernment and discrimination; (3) "seeing" is conceived predominantly in epistemological, intuitive, and mystical terms; (4) the pre- or extradiscriminative state of mind is privileged in such a way that creative tensions between delusion and enlightenment are all but lost; (5) nonduality in the unity is virtually the neutralization of all discriminations and thus has little or nothing to encourage and nurture duality as such that is, discriminative thinking, intellect, language, and reason in the scheme of Zen's soteriological realization; and (6) the implications for Zen discourse and practice, especially ethics, are seriously damaging. What we see here is a formulaic understanding and misunderstanding at that of the nonduality of delusion and enlightenment.

On the other hand, the ultimate paradox of Zen liberation is said to lie in the fact that one attains enlightenment only in and through delusion itself, never apart from it. Strange as that may sound, enlightenment has no exit from delusion any more than delusion has an exit from enlightenment. The two notions need, are bound by, and interact with one another. That said, the interface of delusion and enlightenment in their dynamic, nondual unity is extremely complex, elusive, and ambiguous. Since they are the two foci' of realization, we might ask how they interplay with one another...
Hee-Jin Kim, Dogen on Meditation and Thinking, pp.1-2

Dualisms between dream and waking, reality and illusion… are now thoroughly dismantled and reconstituted in Zen discourse as (revaluated) dualities that intertwine and interpenetrate one another… Dream expands the scope, depth, and precision of awakening.

…Dogen’s religious method firmly grounds itself in the conditions of existence—temporality.
…
A dream in his view is not merely a necessary illusion or a necessary fiction that brings about a soteriological reality/truth; this would smack of dualism by implying a nonfictional or nonillusory reality that remains yet to be realized…Dogen’s commentary is closely interwoven with the notion of emptiness… the reconstructive aspect of the notion—in contrast to the deconstructive one.
Hee-Jin Kim, Dogen on Meditation and Thinking, pp.41-42

The emphasis in Dogen’s Zen thus deepens the meaning of “seeing things as they are” by construing it as “changing/making things as they are.” This is precisely the point highlighted by “expounding a dream (or dream making) within a dream,” in terms of the dynamic dialectics of equilibration and equilibrium in the steelyard analogy. (3) The deconstructive use of emptiness, however potent it may be, is alone not enough. The reconstructive use must be incorporated into it so as to make emptiness soteriologically full-fledged. How can emptiness be serene while constantly challenged by the turmoil of worldly truth… From Dogen’s standpoint, even the “emptiness of emptiness” should be examined in the deconstructive and reconstructive contexts through perpetually ongoing critical scrutiny.
Hee-Jin Kim, Dogen on Meditation and Thinking, pp.52-53

In these six short chapters, I have presented some salient facets of Dogen's thought on authentic practice, which was his paramount concern in his praxis-oriented Zen. In this regard, his emphasis was on the reconstructive use of such notions as duality in relation to nonduality and dependent origination in relation to emptiness. His thrust was as much on engagement in duality as it was on nonattachment to duality...

Through such a highly unorthodox formulation of Zen method and hermeneutics, Dogen (1) offers a new direction in Zen praxis with a number of important implications, and (2) opens up new possibilities for creative dialogue between Zen and contemporary thought. By way of concluding this present work, I would like to make a few final observations on these two points.

Dogen's instructions on seated meditation were brief and minimalist. He did not elaborate on meditation techniques or meditative experiences in any detail, nor did he attempt to guide his disciples through graduated stages of meditative and spiritual progression, as we often see in some religious traditions within and without Buddhism... Rather, his approach emerged from his foremost desire to provide them with fundamental principles spelled out in terms of language, thinking, and reason with which each could grapple with his/her individual soteric project, thereby realizing his/her own Zen. Dogen demonstrated this himself by writing the fascicles of the Shobogenzo.

To illustrate, consider "enlightenment-by-oneself without a teacher" (mushi dokugo), the ultimate Zen principle that every practitioner had to actualize, even while studying under competent teachers and reading the sutras for a number of years.1 Dogen provided this well-known dictum with a specific methodological/hermeneutic key that allowed one to unlock the mystery of existence that is, to open the self and the universe. That key amounted, in essence, to critical, reflective thinking as an integral part of meditation. Without this key, it was impossible to attain one's own salvific independence…
Hee-Jin Kim, Dogen on Meditation and Thinking, pp.121-122

Also see: The Sun Does Not Rise or Set
The Unbounded Field of Awareness
Luminosity vs Clarity
Fully Experience All-Is-Mind by Realizing No-Mind and Conditionality


Hi AEN,

Yesterday you whatsapps me and told me that Jax has left your Dharma Connection group, I can sense your little disappointment.  :)

The reason why he left is obvious, his message and what he attempted to point out wasn’t adequately addressed and appreciated.  Although you have gone through phase 1 insight (7 phases of my journey), the depth and intensity of this realization may differ therefore you may be not be able to fully appreciate his passion.

So what is exactly is lacking?  It is that direct pointing right to the centre of the heart beyond all verbalization, that you have undoubtedly seen, tasted and realized “Awareness”.  It is the flair that mystics penetrate beyond forms, situations, conditions, all arbitrary opinions and communicates directly about this realization.  If you were able to do it, the exchange would have been more fruitful.  Let this be a learning experience.

So what is the realization about?

The realization that “Awareness” is of a different dimension.  It is a touch of “Spirit”, a taste of “Divinity”, not of the dimension of earth, water, space, fire and wind (However as I have pointed out it should not be treated as beyond and needless once seen through).

The knowledge of this is gnosis.  It is not a mere experience or simply the radiance of “knowingness” nor is this expounded in Madhyamaka.

It is not just an experience, it is not just merely non-dual, it is a taste of what that is more ‘real’ than ‘real’.

How can this die and subject to change for this is the very source of life itself.

This is the “heart” of Zen in the wholehearted smile of Maha Kashyapa.  This is the direct realization of “Buddha” beyond experience and verbalization.

Jax’s message is centered on this and an awakening is the awakening to this dimension, the deepest core of one’s beingness and existence.  Purged of this, nothing is worth to be termed “enlightenment”.  This is the whole message that Jax is carrying (imo).

How is this related to “Rigpa”?  I have no idea as I am not a practitioner in Dzogchen but definitely it is the “heart” of Zen.  This is what that triggers the journey and ends the journey.

On the other hand, your emphasis is on anatta.  An equally important insight and is the key of Buddhist’s enlightenment.  Divorcing this insight in expense of any other realizations can hardly be termed “Buddhist’s awakening” and prajna wisdom is the full maturing of this insight.

I wrote this because for readers that have not awaken to what Jax is pointing appear confusing.  As for you, you will have to be more skillful in integrating them.

In any case neither of these insights should be overlooked.  The realization that Jax emphasized is precious but to grasp the breadth and depth of this priceless jewel requires far more than that in one's spiritual journey.  It requires the awakening of prajna wisdom to pierce into the deepest depth of duality and inherency.  There is nothing that needs to be done yet there is so much “doing” during the “undoing” process due simply to a mistaken view.  This simple mistaken view is so powerfully hypnotic that requires the birth of a Buddha to expound the truth of it so not to underestimate it.

Homage to Buddha

Taken from a facebook group dharma connection.

Thusness:

In ignorance, there is hearer hearing sound.
In anatta, in hearing, only sound.
Yet sound has no true inherent nature (empty),
It is an activity and is that very activity called “hearing”.
Both “hearing and sound” are pointing to the same activity.
Only when seen to have true existence on either side does confusion arise.

In Madhyamaka Emptiness, reification is seen through.
Yet the experiential state of freedom from reification is not expounded.
However one can have a taste of that freedom from arising insight of anatta since anatta is precisely the freedom from reification of Self/self (First fold Emptiness).
In anatta, seeing is simply the full scenery, in hearing only sound…
thus, always only lights, shape, colors, sounds, scents… in clean purity.
Emptying the object further (second fold) is merely dissolving subtle bond of “externality” that creates the appearance of true existence of objects outside. When “externality” is deconstructed, it is effectively a double confirmation of anatta…
…innerly coreless and outwardly empty, all appearances are still simply sound, lights, colors and rays
In thorough deconstruction, as there is no layer that reifies, there is no conceptuality. Therefore no complication, no confusion, no stains, no boundaries, no center, no sense of dual..
no sense of activity…just self arising.
All collapse into a single sphere of natural presence and spontaneous simplicity.
Whatever appears is
neither here nor now,
Neither in nor out,
Neither arises nor ceases,
In the same space…
non-local, timeless and dimensionless
Simply present…

To Jax:
The place where there is no earth, fire, wind, space, water…
is the place where the earth, fire, wind, space and water kills “You” and fully shines as its own radiance, a complete taste of itself and fully itself.

Lastly, it is interesting to get know something about Dzogchen however the jargons and tenets are far beyond me.
Just wrote due to a sudden spurt of interest, nothing intense.
Thanks for all the sharing and exchanges.
Gone!

Daniel M. Ingram wrote in http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4179363

It is interesting that in another thread the was the assertion that MCTB whatever was about the first meaning of emptiness, rather than what your quote defines as both.

Just to be clear:

When I mean empty, I also mean without boundary, without inside and outside

I also mean the direct immediate experience in its unprocessed or raw form. I also mean the total dissolution of the sense of a perceiver.

I also mean no active agent.

I also mean that nothing is stable, including space and time.

I also mean that all is bare, shifting, empty sensate experience, causal, happening according to the basic laws of the universe, naturally, on its own.

I also would say that there is no boundary or differentiation between the sense doors at they occur, nor between body and mind, nor between manifestation and awareness, nor between this and that, beyond those ordinarily used for communication and discriminating function, but these are not the essential nature of experience, just part of it as sensations when they occur.

Nor can one find any here that is stable, nor a now that is stable, nor a knower, nor an investigator, nor any practitioner, nor any attainer.

When I talk of an integrated transient, natural, causal, luminous experience field, this sounds to me exactly like your "All collapse into a single sphere of natural presence and spontaneous simplicity."

I see no obvious difference either in theory or in actual practice.

Thoughts?

Thusness's comments to AEN:

Thusness: "There is a YouTube posted by jax regarding master harada, that is direct realization of compassionate energy and fully actualized. But not many understand what he meant."

http://enlightenmentward.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/man-on-cloud-mountain-shodo-harada-roshi-segment-1-of-7-transcript/
http://enlightenmentward.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/man-on-cloud-mountain-shodo-harada-roshi-segment-2-of-7-transcript/
http://enlightenmentward.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/man-on-cloud-mountain-shodo-harada-roshi-segment-3-of-7-transcript/
http://enlightenmentward.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/man-on-cloud-mountain-shodo-harada-roshi-segment-4-of-7-transcript/
http://enlightenmentward.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/man-on-cloud-mountain-shodo-harada-roshi-segment-5-of-7-transcript/
http://enlightenmentward.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/man-on-cloud-mountain-shodo-harada-roshi-segment-6-of-7-transcript/
http://enlightenmentward.wordpress.com/2010/03/27/man-on-cloud-mountain-shodo-harada-roshi-segment-7-of-7-transcript/

Jackson Peterson:

Best video! I visited Harada Roshi in Japan a few years ago. This video is a must see, especially from minute 25 to min. 33 where he describes his Satori awakening.

Also see: Color, Sound, Lights and Rays
Dzogchen vs Advaita, Conventional and Ultimate Truth
Clarifications on Dharmakaya and Basis by Loppön Namdrol/Malcolm
Clarifications on the Term "Rigpa"
Exhaustion of All Phenomena


In my Facebook group "Dharma Connection" there happens to be many Dzogchen practitioners around so I posted this as it may interest them as I think it may also interest you as a reader. I've also posted some comments by Thusness below. (note: Thusness is not a Dzogchen practitioner so whatever he said need not be indicative of Dzogchen, just the practice and experience between us)

Rainbow Body Might Not Be What You Think It Is!

Since there's lots of Dzogchen practitioners, thought it might be interesting to share this piece of info.

Malcolm: "KDL went though all four visions to the end. He told me this personally. Not only me, but others. He did realize rainbow body. Rainbow body, in Dzogchen, does not mean that your body disappears. This is a huge misconception....it is stupidly simple -- once you reach the end of the fourth vision, everything is a display of the five lights, as it is put in the classical text earth, rocks, mountains and cliffs vanish and instead one sees only the five pure lights.....In other words, rainbow body in essence is actually a realization...."

...

"No, but I have heard (from ChNN among others) that the disappearance of the body is not necessarily a sign of the body of light.

Hindus also gain control over the four elements, also Arhats can gain control over the four elements. Gaining control over the four elements is mundane siddhi, it is not excellent siddhi, nor is it reserved for Vajrayana and Dzogchen people. However, if someone has not studied in detail, they might think that many mundane  siddhis are profound. So yes, what I am telling you is that I do not consider the so called rainbow body to much more than a display of mundane siddhi to create faith.

I am glad you have faith in the teachings, but as I said, I do not derive my faith in the teachings through illusions and phantasmagoria.

N"

....

p.s. with regards to KDL, who is also Malcolm's teacher (he passed away in 2006) and Malcolm has said before that KDL is a fully awakened Buddha,

http://tibetanaltar.blogspot.com.au/2009/10/terton-kunzang-dechen-lingpa-moving.html

"Later when Rinpoche was relaxing in a lawn chair, he said to a few students gathered around him: "You don't realize this, but I am actually Guru Rinpoche and you are his twenty-five disciples. I have reached the stage of exhaustion of phenomena (cho nyi zepa). In truth there is for me no form, no sensation, no perception, no karmic formation, no consciousness, no form, no smell, no sense consciousness or object of sense consciousness and so forth; there is no self or other and no distinction of 'Buddhas' and 'sentient beings'; everything remains in the naturally perfect state of pure equality. From the depths of my heart I wish there were some way you could all be made to understand the truth in this, but you do not see it."

Then Rinpoche went silent and tears fell from his eyes."

Also, maybe not many of you here knows this - Malcolm (Loppon Namdrol) was asked to teach Dzogchen by KDL but he refused.

(Update: The part on malcolm refusing to teach dzogchen is outdated information, as I have learnt that he has recently started teaching and has a small sangha now)

Also, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu writes in his book "Dzogchen Teachings"

It is through this Tsal Energy that our manifestation of pure and impure vision, and our particular karmic vision, arises. We are now human beings, and we have human vision. We perceive our environment dualistically,  splitting  it  into  an  apparent  reality  of  a  perceiving  subject separated from a world of external objects. But in fact everything we perceive is like the rainbow lights, which have their source in the rock crystal when it is struck by the sun’s rays. If we see a five-colored rainbow, this means that we perceive the pure dimension, pure vision. When the essence of the elements combines together with our karma,then  the  elements  manifest  on  the  material  level,  creating  impure  vision. Thus, the source of karmic vision is this aspect of Energy known as Tsal; but this same Tsal Energy, through certain practices particular to the Dzogchen teaching, such as Thödgal and Yangti, gives us the possibility of reintegrating our material existence, and of finally realizing the Rainbow Body.

 

Thusness said to me:

"As I suspected (thumbs up) I mean the rainbow body. That can only be done after realization of twofold emptiness and intensity of luminosity into the three states (waking, dreaming, deep sleep)... you are doing pretty well. The integration has been progressing well of the non-dual bliss into your deep sleep state, in view of the short period after your realization of anatta. The inner core must completely disappear and the intensity of luminosity must heighten... Sensations will become transparent and crystal sharp clear.

At present the core center is gone... You write too much and have too little rest. Your mind must have enough time to rest in non-conceptuality of the 6 entries and exits. Otherwise it will not be easy for you to penetrate further. After realizing the twofold emptying there is no more boundaries between mind, appearances and apparent objects and experience becomes seamless... All is mind or this integrated activity. Then we should actualize and integrate this realization.

In touching, both subject and object are both emptied and deconstructed into a single activity of touch and the intensity of luminous clarity must be strong... is it strong now? Or just like passing thoughts with no intensity.

Now penetration of the 3 states is only supported by the strength of your view and realization, not by the intensity of your non-conceptual experience.

"In essence rainbow body is a realization..." Maybe actualization of realization (would be better), in essence it is an actualized state."


my comment: Dzogchen practitioners use the term 'Realization' differently than I and Thusness, 'Realization' could mean something like full actualization or Buddhahood for them and not just an initial insight/recognition/experience.

Also what Thusness said here may be unrelated to Dzogchen rainbow body and is just a personal advise.

Update:

Someone wrote:

"I believe Malcolm Smith, Many texts state the "physical body reverts to the essence of the elements as rainbow light and disapears." Also there is a great deal of writing by many such as Longchenpa that describe the difference between the "vanishment of the physical body" between trekchod, rainbow body as "jalus" and "phowa chenpo" the Great Transfer. This is the goofiest of Malcolm's posts that I have ever read... Am I missing something?"

Malcolm replied:

"Rainbow body where the body shrinks and disappears is a sign of incompletely finishing the fourth vision in this life."