Postings by Jayson MPaul at https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/permalink/5316809895027064/?__cft__[0]=AZUOB-M3fHdGmm3Ak27Izuy_HecqO_ncTIXSBJEkQbmGa1qPGjK8ENVYJztgMED_6pfg9ywA7LG-olw8nMNO-h5NhY34z6EGZMG0Db9jnPI_prM2EO6VUQIBl8ko322BPQa58ZsVyhp5_u4ZUKjFH4dkDTmCDNhddW8f72DvdsuqL3tIkXI501yUOwX1JgOGHkI&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R

Jayson MPaul
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Reality has opened up again and shown itself. I broke a belief holding back what I think may be total exertion. It was some form of thought about how visual sense and auditory sense depend on each other in real time. I wasn't able to see that before, but once this was resolved in my sit, a series of strange transitions occurred. First I saw that each sensation was self-arisen. It could not have come from anything else. Next was seeing that each sensation depends on the totality. And that when the hum of the refrigerator next to me is clear, the totality is dark, but since it doesn't exist without dependency, that hum was the expression of everything. Everything coming together to hummmmmmmm..... No more problem with any particular sensations, no need to focus to maintain pristine contact with the senses, always just sensations rolling on. Listening to teacher talks on youtube today after this, felt like there was no distance between this teaching live and present experiencing. Heart to heart, mind to mind, directly touching, very hard to describe. It was like a direct connection from the teachers energy system to mine own. A 3-dimensional meeting of 2 energy systems arose in the "internal" visual sense, moving and swaying with the external visual sense in real time. Aversion seems like the farthest thing possible with this view. Each sensation is the expression of the entire universe, how could one even push that away and what would be the point? Unclear if this will stay effortless to perceive, but this certainly relieves a lot of suffering.
Edit: Added a missing step in the transition
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13 Comments

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Jayson MPaul
Author
More thoughts on this came to me. Taking the phrase "Hearing hearing hearing" that I have heard as descriptions of total exertion from Dogen and commentaries of such. If you look at the experience of hearing, we can break down each word following and b…
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Angelo Grr
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Awesome man

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Tyler Jones

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Soh Wei Yu
Admin

John tan:
After stability of direct experiences and insights, he must clear cognitive obscurations to fully open up. Is there externality or no externality? Are there cause and effect or no cause or effect? Existence of no existence if he is into mmk (this is esp imp as existence is one's main grasping).

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Soh Wei Yu
Admin

Jt:
“But for now imo he should stabilize his experiences and insights first and go slow on analysis...just keep opening up for 2-3 years.”

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John Tan:

Yes very good👍

 

 Andre:

Link to Beacon of Certainty: https://www.amazon.com/Miphams-Beacon-Certainty-Illuminating-Perfection/dp/0861711572

[11:16 AM, 3/26/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Btw i told my mom its hard for lzls to realise anatta, she told me she believe master shen kai new incarnation will come back to guide ren cheng lol. I told her the reason why its hard is that lzls is focused on ren cheng teachings and unless she is willing to explore anatta, which so far i can see is only taught and realised by two teachers throughout taiwan/china - hong wen liang and ven hui lu, then how can one expect to breakthrough.. imo anatta is not say particularly difficult to realise (so many realised after encountering AtR) but requires willingness to explore and challenge one’s views etc
[11:20 AM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: I need to find a day to write abt mmk 2 truth model, the more I look at it the more beauty I see...lol
[11:21 AM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: It is fortunate that u have insight into anatta
[11:23 AM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: What u lack is a strong view to articulate the experiences and insights without falling into extremes.
[11:23 AM, 3/26/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[11:24 AM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: So far I can't find a teacher or books that can beautifully blend the whole thing together.  Mipham is the closest I can get.
[11:26 AM, 3/26/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. was actually planning to read mipham book during my reservist
[11:35 AM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: Read beacon of certainty, dialectics u need to have some background
[12:14 PM, 3/26/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Ok
[7:24 PM, 3/26/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Andre wrote:

This [in the link] is a good introduction and "meaning commentary" to the text. I'm intending to read Beacon's root text and commentary, I've just read the long introduction by Petitt.

Soh Wei Yu also consider reading Mipham's introduction to Shantarakshita's Adornment of the Middle Way. I'm always saying this, I think it's pretty good. There's a lot of overlapping between these 2 texts.

https://www.amazon.com/Journey-Certainty-Quintessence-Dzogchen-Exploration/dp/1614290091/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Journey+to+Certainty&qid=1616755380&sr=8-1
[7:34 PM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: Shantarashita adorenment is also good..and introduction to the middle way since u always like to talk about bhumis since the middle way is  also chandrakirti's commentary on the bhumis.  🤣

Andre:

One may think that a laptop is empty because it *arose* dependent on conditions, but *now that it has arisen* it's actually 'here in front of us and is made of matter, it's black, it has a certain weight and it's square-shaped'.

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
Instead of "empty because it *arose* dependent on conditions", should also contemplate deeply the opposite : empty therefore dependent on conditions are possible.
End-->-->-->-->

But we're told that the laptop is empty in the sense that it has *never arisen*. What could it mean?

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
When we use the term "non-arisen", we are talking about the traditional two truth model so we must look at both the ultimate and conventional nature.  In ultimate analysis the "laptop" is empty and non-arisen; conventionally the "laptop" arose and the only valid mode of arising is via causes and conditions.

We follow the view and its praxis until the nature of mind and phenomena is clearly understood analytically.  Until gnosis (prajna) is able to intuitive emptiness free from extremes/conceptualities/all elaborations.

Take note that the path of non affirmative negation is only part of the story and to Mipham without seeing coalescence of appearance  and emptiness, it is considered notional emptiness.  He  presents the 4 stages of Madhyamaka experiences as emptiness --> coalescence --> lack of elaborations --> equality.   

It is a gradual approach where the insight and experience of former phase will form the foundation for the next phase to arise until the non-conceptual gnosis of spontaneous presence is realized.

What lies after is the pure, unfabricated, uncontrieved view of spontaneous presence which is inexpressible since it is beyond all notions and elaborations.

I think these 4 phases r extremely helpful pointers for ATR ppl post anatta insight.  Before that, the nature of mind and phenomena is still unclear.  For u, the insights and experiences are there but the view is still very weak and needs lots of refinement.  This is not ur fault, me included (🤣) as we start from koan and contemplate on short stanzas.  However if u want to have firmed and stable progress, u got to keep refining Ur view.
End-->-->-->-->

I don't fully understand non-arising yet, but I'd say it means that the laptop isn't actually solid or made of matter, even as it's resting right in front of us and we touch it. If it was actually made of matter, then it wouldn't be empty - it would have an intrinsic characteristic. But we're told in the Heart Sutra that 'form is emptiness'. So, form itself is devoid of nature, so it isn't truly form - it only appears so. And if the form element is empty, no object can possess it as an intrinsic characteristic.

Since mind and matter originates in dependence, investigated mind instead of matter. Emptiness without

Moreover, the laptop being material depends on being perceived by a non-material consciousness, so its materiality doesn't stand alone; it must be cognized externally as to be established - it's not self-established. The same with its being square or 'in front of us'. Likewise, consciousness does not stand alone - it requires the laptop so as to be able to 'arise as perception of laptop'.

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
One point to take note here is when Nagarjuna talked about dependency, it is not just nominal dependency but also existential dependency.  Like the comment I made on Andre previous post:-

This undeniable conviction of "in here" is real and "undeniably exist" WITHOUT conceptual constructs is the "inherentness" that must be deconstructed.  For without "externality", how does the sense of "internality" arise?  If they r dependent, how could they exist truly?

The seeing through of their dependent designations also renders the seeing through of their existence.
End-->-->-->-->

That the laptop is square-shaped is a notion imputed onto the vivid clarity of experience. That it's black likewise; that it's out there too.

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
Vivid clarity isn't within the scope of mmk.  However Mipham has two models of two truth, one is the traditional madhyamaka 2 truth model and second is the authentic(non-dual non-inherent non-conceptual)/inauthentic experiential model.  Andre's previous poem of equating DO with spontaneous presence belongs more to the second model.
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I think the point is to empty all appearances of any notion that we might want to impute on them. Why? It reduces grasping and thus suffering. And, importantly, it opens the door to the transformation of experience. We're told that, in full enlightenment, experience sheds off its 'mortal skin' of ordinary body-mind and transforms into enlightened bodies and wisdom. That can't happen if experience is framed in confined structures of subject and object, mind and matter, limited and unlimited, space and time, etc. We can't wake up from a dream while still believing some aspects of it to be real, even if we've seen through the dream-character and some parts of the landscape.

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
Relating grasping and suffering to imputations is more than a matter of logical deduction.  

We can deduced by asking:
how does the mind grasp at all when conditioned existence r seen through?

How does mind grasp when it is free from all fabricated notions and elaborations?  

We may also conclude that in fact mind comes to a total cessation when it's free from all elaborations.

But from practice point of view (imo), we must be thoroughly convinced and taste through experience that each conceptual construct has a set of emotional weights associated with it.  Be it "self", "phenomena", "arising", "production", "existence" ...etc.  Some releases r as powerful as anatta and mind-body dropped, some r like putting down a heavy load and often accompanied by a light sense of joy.  This point was very well described and articulated by Aditya Prasad.
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"Don't try to bend the spoon, it's impossible. Instead, realize the truth. What truth? There is no spoon."

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
Tell Andre to eat his food with his "spoon"! 🤣
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At the time of his enlightenment, Zen Master Huangpo said, "When I hear the sound of the bell ringing, there is no bell, and also no I, only ringing-sound."

 The two truths meet everywhere.

- Dependent origination refutes

Both extreme views of is and is-not.

- Appearance and emptiness are united

As the scent that is experience.

- Clarity and limitlessness are inseparable

As the nature of mind.

.

Mind as clarity is nothing

But experience as appearingness.

Experience as emptiness is nothing

But limitlessness as mind.

.

Clarity-appearance is nothing but origination.

Empty-limitlessness is nothing but dependency.

The diving into the nature of mind is nothing

But the embracing of dependent origination.

.

A feather slowly floats its way towards the ground;

The breeze makes the trees sway;

A sound suddenly pierces the silence;

That itself is the nature of mind.

.

The very pulsing of dependent origination

Is the primordial face of the Tathāgata.

Like blood and veins and heart

- The two truths meet everywhere.

Soh, I think u should do a summary of ur understanding on the recent post by Andre.  The poem of expressing the meeting of two truth by realising dependent arising is beautiful. Like a sudden flash of insight that pierce through a koan, it clears the fog of dependent origination by directly leaping over all artificial definitions right into the heart, blood and veins of Tathāgata.  So what exactly is realized but was not recognized in the past? Put some effort into articulating this point clearly.

Appearance and emptiness are united

As the scent that is experience.

...

A feather slowly floats its way towards the ground;

The breeze makes the trees sway;

A sound suddenly pierces the silence;

That itself is the nature of mind.

 Imo that concisely expressed the heart to heart authentication of dependent origination as clarity natural radiance (arising).

That said, despite the non-conceptual heart to heart authentication, still the “in-between” de-construction process are extremely invaluable activities that cannot be bypassed and overlooked.  In fact, the missing key in sharpening and maturing one’s prajna lies precisely in these in-between process of connecting dots.  For mature and smooth integration of view, insights and experiences post anatta, we should not be simply skewed towards dwelling and deepening into non-conceptual taste of suchness.  So don’t end up like Héshang Móhēyǎn (和尚摩訶衍) in his debate with Kamalasila in Lhasa although in the Chinese sources, many claimed otherwise but that is beside the point.

Andre posted another good article today about how the 8 worldly concerns in daily engagements relate to agentless-action, dependent origination and emptiness and all these play their inevitable bits in wearing off our obscurations.  Habitual obscurations are exceedingly subtle like scent left behind a container hence there is no short-cut to liberation -- it’s all step by step and bit by bit erosion of the nuances and subtleness of “inherentness” in one’s ignorance.

Pam Tan shared this after meeting with AtR group and John in October 2020

[12:25 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: Hi Soh, just want to let you know, how John described anatta last night is already my moment to moment lived 'experience' since beginning of this year. I am 100% doubtless. Even though I shared with no one and do not really want to talk about it. All there is just this current display of shapes colours tactile feel smell thoughts. No conceptual overlay, NONE! Direct, immediate, gapless, intimate. Life continues to function lighter than a baby's breath. Thank you for bringing the meeting about. From deep depression and not having heard of spirituality in 2016 to direct glimpses coming fast and furious back to back this year. Culminating in John's and your presence last evening. His words are myself talking to myself, sealing my milestone.
[12:26 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: 🙏🙏🙏
[12:56 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: As John said, anatta realisation is nothing spectacular, it is just recognising this has always been the case. Very beautiful and simple recognition, mySelf meeting mySelf, saying hello mySelf. No more questions, just a smile of quiet understanding.
[1:13 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: Am open-handed now and seeing alot of deeply embedded old wounds surfacing without stopping them or reacting to them. They are just sensations and they free themselves and dissolve and I smile at how simple it is now, instead of me suppressing and suffering few years back. This purging is sometimes very intense and I have to take deep breaths. For as long as I have this body, there will continue to be old fears and habits based on mistaken beliefs of personhood and doership, I don't hope to exhaust all of them but see clearly that these present themselves as a chance to cleanse and clarify. A lifelong practice. So embrace everything, knowing we are all spotless, innocent, complete and life is very precious and beautiful Self-discovery journey!!!
[1:28 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: Some real-life egs:

Every morning upon waking, in sleep-wake state, for a flash moment, language is absent so that what is presented have no labels and I have no idea what I am looking at. Just an array of shapes and colours and aircon humming and sensations the contact of body with sheets but all as one tapestry. No sense of someone located somewhere looking and experiencing from the location of a body in bed.  Yet feel like I am everywhere.
[1:28 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: This morning when hanging out the laundry my hands on the poles appear not attached or belonging to myself yet all the clothes and pole and window and flats opposite ARE ME!

The vivid colours of the clothes on the poles are nameless and not seen by the eyes but they are just KNOWN!
[1:30 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: Colours and sounds are KNOWN immediately by themselves...they are Self-knowing, no need for any agent making an effort to bring info to the brain.
[1:33 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: Last night watching John at no distance, his shape and voice just ARE. Not even to say "appearing in consciousness"...saying this is saying too much. JUST ARE! Shining vividly by themselves!
[1:39 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: And every moment is not a linear progression from a previous moment. Just one, the current one, the most updated one,. Updated not as if there was a continuity from previous moment. It is just a compete moment by itself! It presents as a whole package complete with story/memory of the previous moments. So this tricked the brain into thinking there was a past. Giving illusion of time. While in fact they are disjointed, each a complete current display.
[1:42 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: I used to drag my past into my present when it is just a story etched into the current configuration. There is no way to verify that the story even happened. It is just assumed due to 'evidences' of what others collaborate to confirm back to us.
[1:44 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: When people talk about there is just the NOW I was so frustrated. Now it is so obvious. What is right now infront of the face and under the feet is all the reality there is. All else are contrivance, hearsay, imagination, assumptions.
[1:47 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: Regarding substantiality of a background, this is a thought, a concept appearing now.
[1:48 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: If there are no joined moments how can there be continuity?
[1:48 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: How can there be a permanent background?
[1:51 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: Of all illusions, the illusion of a background holding all illusions together is itself the most persistent illusion!!!
[2:32 PM, 10/29/2020] Soh Wei Yu: 👍 wonderfully expressed. Thanks for sharing

[11:23 PM, 3/13/2021] Soh Wei Yu: by the way just wondering if it's ok to share what you shared above? i can remove any specific details if you wish
[7:37 AM, 3/14/2021] Pam: Hi morning Soh, yes can always share if you feel may benefit others