John Tan:

明心还需见空性，明空性也需证妙心。

Soh’s translation:

"After apperceiving the (radiant/luminous) mind, one still needs to see the nature of emptiness; even understanding the nature of emptiness, one also needs to realize to the marvelous heart (Mind)."

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Other relevant quotes:

“Should be recognition of radiance clarity is implied and naturally realized.

The recognition should be directly into realizing appearances as empty clarity therefore both 能所双亡 (ChatGPT translate: both subject and object are not found) as both are merely conventionally designated and dependently arise.

As 五祖 (ChatGPT translate: the Fifth Patriarch) told 慧能 (ChatGPT translate: Huineng), 不识本心 学法无益 (ChatGPT translate: Not knowing the original mind, learning the Dharma is of no benefit). Like 10 ox herding pictures, 能所双亡 (ChatGPT translate: both subject and object are not found) comes at a later phase.”

“Even when clarity is authenticated, still one got to differentiate between no-mind and anatta. Then "I" as reified construct and extend to phenomena to realized primodial purity of one's mind.”

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John Tan's reply on something Malcolm wrote in 2020:

“This is like what I tell you and essentially emphasizing 明心非见性. 先明心, 后见性. (Soh: Apprehending Mind is not seeing [its] Nature. First apprehend Mind, later realise [its] Nature).

First is directly authenticating mind/consciousness 明心 (Soh: Apprehending Mind). There is the direct path like zen sudden enlightenment of one's original mind or mahamudra or dzogchen direct introduction of rigpa or even self enquiry of advaita -- the direct, immediate, perception of "consciousness" without intermediaries. They are the same.

However that is not realization of emptiness. Realization of emptiness is 见性 (Soh: Seeing Nature). Imo there is direct path to 明心 (Soh: Apprehending Mind) but I have not seen any direct path to 见性 (Soh: Seeing Nature) yet. If you go through the depth and nuances of our mental constructs, you will understand how deep and subtle the blind spots are.

Therefore emptiness or 空性 (Soh: Empty Nature) is the main difference between buddhism and other religions. Although anatta is the direct experiential taste of emptiness, there is still a difference between buddhist's anatta and selflessness of other religions -- whether it is anatta by experiential taste of the dissolution of self alone or the experiential taste is triggered by wisdom of emptiness.

The former focused on selflessness and whole path of practice is all about doing away with self whereas the latter is about living in the wisdom of emptiness and applying that insight and wisdom of emptiness to all phenomena.

As for emptiness there is the fine line of seeing through inherentness of Tsongkhapa and there is the emptiness free from extremes by Gorampa. Both are equally profound so do not talk nonsense and engaged in profane speech as in terms of result, ultimately they are the same (imo).”

Dalai Lama - "Nature - there are many different levels. Conventional level, one nature. There are also, you see, different levels. Then, ultimate level, ultimate reality... so simply realise the Clarity of the Mind, that is the conventional level. That is common with Hindus, like that. So we have to know these different levels...." 

-- See more at Recognizing Rigpa vs Realizing Emptiness, and the Different Modalities of Rigpa 

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[20/3/24, 11:51:11 PM] John Tan: Currently u r just practicing natural opening of radiance right?

[20/3/24, 11:56:50 PM] Soh Wei Yu: mostly yes

[20/3/24, 11:58:40 PM] John Tan: Yes and u believe and have great confidence that focusing on the purity and undeserving openning of one's radiance led to liberation correct?

[20/3/24, 11:58:52 PM] John Tan: Unreserved

[20/3/24, 11:59:41 PM] Soh Wei Yu: yes but i think that is also contingent on how clear is one's insight into emptiness

[20/3/24, 11:59:52 PM] Soh Wei Yu: for example anatta is also one type of wisdom into emptiness.. the initial one

[21/3/24, 12:00:03 AM] Soh Wei Yu: without that its not even possible to openly taste radiance as appearance for example

[21/3/24, 12:01:03 AM] John Tan: Yes what else?

[21/3/24, 12:03:34 AM] Soh Wei Yu: emptiness must extend to all self and phenomena as reified, mere names and imputations, non-arisen... and must lead to presence as free from extremes, illusory in taste, like space, a kind of insubstantial presence-absence rather than solid and real. beyond that theres still subtler cognitive obscurations

[21/3/24, 12:08:07 AM] John Tan: In one sense yes but the purpose is see without confusion what exactly are conventional in our thoughts moments and we will understand clearly all our discussions above.  Especially after anatta.

[21/3/24, 12:08:55 AM] Soh Wei Yu: oic..

[21/3/24, 12:11:21 AM] John Tan: Now I ask u, is ur body more important than empty radiance?

[21/3/24, 12:20:19 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Hmm.. they are inseparable.. thats why yoga etc are important

[21/3/24, 12:22:03 AM] John Tan: Normal exercises will do to balance ur energy before one is in a natural state of effortless and unreserved openning.

[21/3/24, 12:23:15 AM] John Tan: Exotic poses can harm ur body if not carefully practice esp without proper guidiance

[21/3/24, 12:23:29 AM] Soh Wei Yu: oic..

[21/3/24, 12:24:49 AM] Soh Wei Yu: my dad told me when you demonstrated some poses or asanas, it seemed quite extreme and maybe harmful lol.. i told him its because you practice for many many years and are flexible and you also warned about dangers of extreme yoga before

[21/3/24, 12:25:10 AM] John Tan: Yeah

[21/3/24, 12:26:12 AM] John Tan: Not suitable for ppl without guidance. Not advisable for ppl.  Just normal exercises will do.

[21/3/24, 12:26:19 AM] Soh Wei Yu: i see..

[21/3/24, 12:26:47 AM] John Tan: I dun advice ppl to practice that way.

[21/3/24, 12:26:57 AM] Soh Wei Yu: oic..

[21/3/24, 12:27:38 AM] John Tan: But for u, u need to discipline to do some exercises to balance over focus of radiance.

[21/3/24, 12:27:54 AM] Soh Wei Yu: ic..

[21/3/24, 12:41:27 AM] John Tan: Also u got to have clear understanding of what if one only focus on emptiness of conventional yet without any taste of radiance.

[21/3/24, 12:57:48 AM] Soh Wei Yu: then its just a cessation of concepts and reification on a mental level only right

[21/3/24, 1:02:26 AM] John Tan: Not exactly, cessation of concepts and reification  should lead to direct taste of radiance.

[21/3/24, 1:03:53 AM] John Tan: More like non-attachment due to seeing through, what will experience be like?  Go sleep.

[21/3/24, 2:07:57 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Hmm.. more like a mental release i think. But it will still be inferential understanding of emptiness rather than a sort of realising of our nature isnt it

[21/3/24, 2:08:02 PM] Soh Wei Yu: https://youtu.be/f8y0QKXZGHs?si=o26rUnamdVvBwCgC

[21/3/24, 2:08:20 PM] Soh Wei Yu: First thirty minutes talk about anatta, emptiness, hinayana vs mahayana vs brahman

...

[21/3/24, 9:57:12 PM] Soh Wei Yu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=oXi_WOnOLmE

[22/3/24, 12:57:56 AM] Soh Wei Yu: im going to Taiwan tmr lol

[22/3/24, 12:57:56 AM] Soh Wei Yu: sat and sunday will be at his monastery for short retreat

[22/3/24, 8:04:55 AM] John Tan: 👍

[22/3/24, 8:09:47 AM] John Tan: 👍

[22/3/24, 8:30:46 AM] John Tan: Yes quite good.

....

[22/3/24, 8:36:38 AM] John Tan: This is like the question I asked u yesterday, does realizing emptiness of conventional lead to authentication of one's radiance?

[22/3/24, 8:51:39 AM] Soh Wei Yu: So in his case his is from realizing emptiness of the conventional leading to authentication of radiance?

[22/3/24, 8:52:35 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I would say.. If one can truly see through the conventional subject action object structure, it will lead to authenticating radiance as appearance

[22/3/24, 8:56:12 AM] John Tan: Not exactly.  Rather from realizing emptiness of conventional into spontaneous perfection and self liberation.

[22/3/24, 8:58:19 AM] John Tan: That is what I said yesterday, it is not possible to see through "reification" and not recognize appearances as one's radiance.

But one can keep practicing penetrating emptiness of the conventional and not authenticate radiance.  During this intermediate phase, what is it like is my question to u yesterday.

‎[22/3/24, 8:59:22 AM] John Tan: ‎image omitted

[22/3/24, 8:59:25 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. hmm like first stanza of anatta without going into second?

[22/3/24, 9:01:04 AM] John Tan: Something like that.  So u need to know the emptiness 法门 (Soh: the dharma door of emptiness), radiance 法门 (Soh: the dharma door of radiance) and then 大圆满 (Soh: great perfection/spontaneous perfection).

[22/3/24, 9:03:52 AM] John Tan: Actually no matter which path when practice with the right understanding can lead to self liberation if we have the right understanding and view from start.

However during the journey, practitioners need more season practitioners to point out to them what they lack.

[22/3/24, 9:04:23 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[22/3/24, 9:05:09 AM] John Tan: That is y u need to know clearly, the intermediate phase if without authentication of radiance or radiance without understanding emptiness of phenomena.

...

[22/3/24, 9:12:22 AM] John Tan: Yes because u start from I M to the recognition of appearances as radiance clarity but lack direct insight of how emptiness of conventional can equally lead to that.  

That is y I m now trying to lead u to see that from all those questionings.

[22/3/24, 9:14:20 AM] John Tan: It is not that "emptiness" alone cannot lead to authentication of radiance, it will but only at the mature phase.

[22/3/24, 9:15:06 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[22/3/24, 9:15:58 AM] John Tan: However for those that can see and understand it and skewed towards 顽空 then pointing radiance is necessary.

[22/3/24, 9:17:06 AM] John Tan: Actually the 7 phases of insights r quite complete already, just need to refine proper wordings and explanations.

...

John Tan:

“Should be recognition of radiance clarity is implied and naturally realized.

The recognition should be directly into realizing appearances as empty clarity therefore both 能所双亡 (ChatGPT translate: both subject and object are not found) as both are merely conventionally designated and dependently arise.

As 五祖 (ChatGPT translate: the Fifth Patriarch) told 慧能 (ChatGPT translate: Huineng), 不识本心 学法无益 (ChatGPT translate: Not knowing the original mind, learning the Dharma is of no benefit). Like 10 ox herding pictures, 能所双亡 (ChatGPT translate: both subject and object are not found) comes at a later phase.

Even when clarity is authenticated, still one got to differentiate between no-mind and anatta. Then "I" as reified construct and extend to phenomena to realized primodial purity of one's mind.”

"This.  He already clearly implied radiance in emptiness."