Andre:
One may think that a laptop is empty because it *arose* dependent on conditions, but *now that it has arisen* it's actually 'here in front of us and is made of matter, it's black, it has a certain weight and it's square-shaped'.
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Instead of "empty because it *arose* dependent on conditions", should also contemplate deeply the opposite : empty therefore dependent on conditions are possible.
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But we're told that the laptop is empty in the sense that it has *never arisen*. What could it mean?
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When we use the term "non-arisen", we are talking about the traditional two truth model so we must look at both the ultimate and conventional nature. In ultimate analysis the "laptop" is empty and non-arisen; conventionally the "laptop" arose and the only valid mode of arising is via causes and conditions.
We follow the view and its praxis until the nature of mind and phenomena is clearly understood analytically. Until gnosis (prajna) is able to intuitive emptiness free from extremes/conceptualities/all elaborations.
Take note that the path of non affirmative negation is only part of the story and to Mipham without seeing coalescence of appearance and emptiness, it is considered notional emptiness. He presents the 4 stages of Madhyamaka experiences as emptiness --> coalescence --> lack of elaborations --> equality.
It is a gradual approach where the insight and experience of former phase will form the foundation for the next phase to arise until the non-conceptual gnosis of spontaneous presence is realized.
What lies after is the pure, unfabricated, uncontrieved view of spontaneous presence which is inexpressible since it is beyond all notions and elaborations.
I think these 4 phases r extremely helpful pointers for ATR ppl post anatta insight. Before that, the nature of mind and phenomena is still unclear. For u, the insights and experiences are there but the view is still very weak and needs lots of refinement. This is not ur fault, me included (🤣) as we start from koan and contemplate on short stanzas. However if u want to have firmed and stable progress, u got to keep refining Ur view.
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I don't fully understand non-arising yet, but I'd say it means that the laptop isn't actually solid or made of matter, even as it's resting right in front of us and we touch it. If it was actually made of matter, then it wouldn't be empty - it would have an intrinsic characteristic. But we're told in the Heart Sutra that 'form is emptiness'. So, form itself is devoid of nature, so it isn't truly form - it only appears so. And if the form element is empty, no object can possess it as an intrinsic characteristic.
Since mind and matter originates in dependence, investigated mind instead of matter. Emptiness without
Moreover, the laptop being material depends on being perceived by a non-material consciousness, so its materiality doesn't stand alone; it must be cognized externally as to be established - it's not self-established. The same with its being square or 'in front of us'. Likewise, consciousness does not stand alone - it requires the laptop so as to be able to 'arise as perception of laptop'.
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One point to take note here is when Nagarjuna talked about dependency, it is not just nominal dependency but also existential dependency. Like the comment I made on Andre previous post:-
This undeniable conviction of "in here" is real and "undeniably exist" WITHOUT conceptual constructs is the "inherentness" that must be deconstructed. For without "externality", how does the sense of "internality" arise? If they r dependent, how could they exist truly?
The seeing through of their dependent designations also renders the seeing through of their existence.
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That the laptop is square-shaped is a notion imputed onto the vivid clarity of experience. That it's black likewise; that it's out there too.
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Vivid clarity isn't within the scope of mmk. However Mipham has two models of two truth, one is the traditional madhyamaka 2 truth model and second is the authentic(non-dual non-inherent non-conceptual)/inauthentic experiential model. Andre's previous poem of equating DO with spontaneous presence belongs more to the second model.
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I think the point is to empty all appearances of any notion that we might want to impute on them. Why? It reduces grasping and thus suffering. And, importantly, it opens the door to the transformation of experience. We're told that, in full enlightenment, experience sheds off its 'mortal skin' of ordinary body-mind and transforms into enlightened bodies and wisdom. That can't happen if experience is framed in confined structures of subject and object, mind and matter, limited and unlimited, space and time, etc. We can't wake up from a dream while still believing some aspects of it to be real, even if we've seen through the dream-character and some parts of the landscape.
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Relating grasping and suffering to imputations is more than a matter of logical deduction.
We can deduced by asking:
how does the mind grasp at all when conditioned existence r seen through?
How does mind grasp when it is free from all fabricated notions and elaborations?
We may also conclude that in fact mind comes to a total cessation when it's free from all elaborations.
But from practice point of view (imo), we must be thoroughly convinced and taste through experience that each conceptual construct has a set of emotional weights associated with it. Be it "self", "phenomena", "arising", "production", "existence" ...etc. Some releases r as powerful as anatta and mind-body dropped, some r like putting down a heavy load and often accompanied by a light sense of joy. This point was very well described and articulated by Aditya Prasad.
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"Don't try to bend the spoon, it's impossible. Instead, realize the truth. What truth? There is no spoon."
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Tell Andre to eat his food with his "spoon"! 🤣
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Update:
Also relevant: