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Can someone give clear examples of interpenetration and non obstruction? They are from Huayan school of Buddhism. By clear example I mean speaking from direct experience, thank you!
Soh Wei Yu
Would love to hear from others but just to share some links:
I was able to see this clearer with some inquiry. Let's take the example of the 'tinnnngggss' from a bell. That sound's conditions are the bell, the stick, the air, the ear drums. If you take any one of these things away there is no sound. Now looking at the sound, can you separate out which part of the tings is the stick, the air, the bell? There is no dividing line in the actual experience of the sound. If you take it further, who crafted the bell, who bought it, all the air those people breathed. Take any of those away and there is no sound. Again you can't find any dividing line between all these conditions in tinnnngs. So all those things are actualized in that ting. Let that experiential feel soak into something going on right now. As you hold the view of conditionality, the subject-action-object view is released. Expand that view to everything and you have interpenetration and non-obstruction. Nothing obstructs anything else, each sound expresses all. How could one thing have a boundary with other things to obstruct in the first place?
Jayson MPaul i like how you’re bringing the view of conditionality into direct experience. That makes a lot of sense.
Soh Wei Yu
That article is nice, but it is not about total exertion.
[13/1/17, 10:43:54 PM] John Tan: Read the 3 articles u put n blog by zen master Hong wen Liang
[13/1/17, 10:44:19 PM] John Tan: If u truly understand then there will b no question.
[13/1/17, 10:44:25 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[13/1/17, 10:44:47 PM] John Tan: However if u truly understand, u will b "connected"
[13/1/17, 10:45:47 PM] John Tan: Means there is an intimate feeling that the whole lineage is suddenly fully totally exerted into u from the time of Buddha.
[13/1/17, 10:45:55 PM] John Tan: Can u feel that?
[14/1/17, 9:33:12 AM] John Tan: There is a kindle version of zen cosmology but cannot b bought
[14/1/17, 9:33:26 AM] Soh Wei Yu: What Hong wen Liang is saying is like dependent designation and total exertion right
[14/1/17, 9:33:32 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah dunno y cannot buy
[14/1/17, 9:34:07 AM] John Tan: No
[14/1/17, 9:34:40 AM] John Tan: Hong wen Liang is also trained in dzogchen also
[14/1/17, 9:35:14 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Yes.. he used to teach Tibetan Buddhism I think
[14/1/17, 9:35:16 AM] Soh Wei Yu: His old articles
[14/1/17, 9:35:22 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Talk about Rigpa etc
[14/1/17, 9:35:26 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Those before 1999
[14/1/17, 9:35:47 AM] John Tan: The problem with zen is direct experience takes up 90% of the focus and very lil on view.
[14/1/17, 9:35:59 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[14/1/17, 9:36:57 AM] John Tan: So total exertion as an experience is well expressed esp in soto zen
[14/1/17, 9:37:42 AM] John Tan: However the conditions that give rise to it was not clear at all.
[14/1/17, 9:39:04 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. but zen master Hong wasn't clear?
[14/1/17, 9:39:10 AM] John Tan: Also although the explanations r very insightful and profound, there r some very important fine points that must b very carefully explained.
[14/1/17, 9:39:15 AM] John Tan: Yes
[14/1/17, 9:39:21 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[14/1/17, 9:39:43 AM] John Tan: And jewel mirror samadhi is not total exertion
[14/1/17, 9:40:04 AM] Soh Wei Yu: It's talking about nondual/anatta right
[14/1/17, 9:40:30 AM] John Tan: Non-dual and prone towards anatta
[14/1/17, 9:40:48 AM] John Tan: But unclear in jewel mirror samadhi
[14/1/17, 9:41:27 AM] John Tan: 一枚 (one piece) is the key to samadhi
[14/1/17, 9:41:38 AM] John Tan: Also key to total exertion
[14/1/17, 9:42:04 AM] John Tan: However explanation can also be skewed towards monism
[14/1/17, 9:43:04 AM] John Tan: Means one is 一枚, he is in non-dual samadhi, but may not b in total exertion.
[14/1/17, 9:43:19 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[14/1/17, 9:45:46 AM] John Tan: mirror and reflection...the interpreter is more important than the tozan's original text
[14/1/17, 9:46:47 AM] John Tan: Means the point was emphasised by the translator (the jap zen master) that it should b understood that way
[14/1/17, 9:47:06 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[14/1/17, 9:47:20 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ya like Dogen make a lot of commentary though the original text doesn't seem like it
[14/1/17, 9:47:21 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Haha
[14/1/17, 9:47:32 AM] John Tan: Tozan original poem may not c it that way
[14/1/17, 9:47:40 AM] John Tan: Yes
[14/1/17, 9:48:47 AM] John Tan: Tozan 5 rankings also talks abt unity of absolute and ultimate, imo it never made it to total exertion.
[14/1/17, 9:48:57 AM] John Tan: And is not abt total exertion
[14/1/17, 9:49:31 AM] John Tan: But becoz it is such an important text in soto zen, I do not want to comment abt it...lol
[14/1/17, 9:50:48 AM] John Tan: However master Hong Wen Liang, is able to integrate illusoriness into total exertion.
[14/1/17, 9:52:00 AM] John Tan: But his explanations is for one that has already understood and clear experience of total exertion.
[14/1/17, 9:52:13 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[14/1/17, 9:52:29 AM] John Tan: Not why and how total exertion arise.
[14/1/17, 9:52:52 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[14/1/17, 9:54:01 AM] John Tan: If insight isn't clear of the exact conditions that gives rise to it, then the path of practice becomes important.
[14/1/17, 9:54:13 AM] John Tan: Like just sitting
[14/1/17, 9:55:22 AM] John Tan: Another western teaching that can trigger total exertion is the one that dharma Dan once follow...
[14/1/17, 9:55:27 AM] John Tan: Forgotten what
[14/1/17, 9:55:34 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Actual freedom
[14/1/17, 9:55:37 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Actualism
[14/1/17, 9:55:38 AM] John Tan: Yes
[14/1/17, 9:55:40 AM] John Tan: Lol
[14/1/17, 9:55:43 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[14/1/17, 9:56:45 AM] John Tan: There r several conditions that triggers that give rise to total exertion
[14/1/17, 9:56:58 AM] John Tan: Anatta into action
[14/1/17, 9:58:02 AM] John Tan: The view of DO
[14/1/17, 9:59:23 AM] John Tan: The view of emptiness and non-arisen nature of phenomena provides the clear insight of how and y it is so.
[14/1/17, 10:17:55 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[14/1/17, 10:19:12 AM] John Tan: I m still thinking how to write without showing dis-respect to the ancient masters...lol
What I got from Jewel Mirror Samadhi that led to a Total Exertion reading was that the whole universe is the mirror. The ting of a bell is the holographic reflection of bell, air, stick, ear, human. This isn't happening in some conciousness somewhere. It is literally all those things reflecting each other (and more). Maybe this was just a side effect of where my practice is at the moment in how I got that reading from it
Especially this part:
> "Entering straight into hell" means instantly falling into error, we cannot explain it that way. Haven't you heard of it? "Mountains and rivers are not seen within a mirror, mountains and rivers are themselves the mirror." When you heard "the whole universe is a piece of Jewel Mirror Samadhi", and you treat that as a mirror, it is very easy to err. Therefore he emphasizes, "mountains and rivers are not within a mirror, mountains, rivers, grasses and wood are the mirror." Never treat what you saw and sensed as being reflections of a mirror, we cannot explain it that way. Mountains, rivers, and the great earth are themselves the mirror, not the reflections of a mirror.
Soh Wei Yu
Imo That part you quoted is more on anatta insight. In seeing just the seen. No mirror and reflections in the mirror.
Yes when realized from your own viewpoint, but when realized that all the myriad things are reflecting off each other like indra's net that is different. My reading of it definitely seems to be influenced by what I'm practicing at the moment.