Posts
Session Start: Friday, 14 September, 2007
(10:31 PM) Thusness:
The totality u mention when put in common language is what?
(10:31 PM) AEN:
the one i pasted to u that day
(10:31 PM) AEN:
lol
(10:31 PM) AEN:
wait i find
(10:32 PM) AEN:
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? (Zen Master Huang Po:
25. The term unity refers to a homogeneous spiritual brilliance which separates into six harmoniously blended 'elements'. The homogeneous spiritual brilliance is the One Mind, while the six harmoniously blended 'elements' are the six sense organs. These six sense organs become severally united with objects that defile them -- the eyes with form, the ear with sound, the nose with smell, the tongue with taste, the body with touch, and the thinking mind with entities. Between these organs and their objects arise the six sensory perceptions, making eighteen sense-realms in all. If you understand that these eighteen realms have no objective existence, you will bind the six harmoniously blended 'elements' into a single spiritual brilliance -- a single spiritual brilliance which is the One Mind. All students of the way know this, but they cannot avoid forming concepts of 'a single spiritual brilliance' and 'the six harmoniously blended elements'. Accordingly they are chained to entities and fail to achieve a tacit understanding of original Mind.)
(10:33 PM) AEN:
y u ask
(10:33 PM) AEN:
u're refering to which post ah
(10:33 PM) AEN:
the first or second or third
(10:33 PM) AEN:
lol
(10:35 PM) Thusness:
the first one
(10:35 PM) Thusness:
the one mind and the nature of the mind
(10:35 PM) AEN:
icic
(10:35 PM) Thusness:
to correct discern what is the nature of the mind, that is empty.
(10:35 PM) Thusness:
if not it can refer to the luminosity aspect alone
(10:36 PM) AEN:
huh watu u mean
(10:36 PM) Thusness:
the chinese
(10:36 PM) Thusness:
the mind must be understood this way, that the nature is empty
(10:36 PM) Thusness:
but not understood as "I AM"
(10:36 PM) AEN:
icic..
(10:36 PM) Thusness:
then what is the 5 aggregates?
(10:37 PM) AEN:
also the one mind?
(10:37 PM) Thusness: no experiencing the five aggregates alone, is knowing without self.
(10:37 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:38 PM) Thusness: the perception of no-self and anatta is already there though non-dual is an form of direct insight and not so much of an intellectual understanding
(10:38 PM) Thusness: that is the no-self anatta
(10:38 PM) Thusness: get it?
(10:38 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:38 PM) Thusness: but then there is still the perception
(10:39 PM) Thusness: there is still the 'sense of self' even though no-self is understood and even after the experience of no-self
(10:39 PM) Thusness: get it?
(10:39 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:39 PM) AEN: sense of self = perception?
(10:39 PM) Thusness: isn't the five aggregate already no-self
(10:39 PM) AEN: oic
(10:39 PM) Thusness: sense of self is not only perception
(10:39 PM) Thusness: it is more than that
(10:40 PM) Thusness: but perception is just part of it
(10:40 PM) AEN: icic
(10:40 PM) Thusness: so what is practice?
(10:40 PM) Thusness: it is to transform 5 aggregates to 18 dhatus
(10:40 PM) Thusness: without the mental formation
(10:40 PM) Thusness: that is practice
(10:40 PM) AEN: icic.. ya
(10:41 PM) Thusness: even after the experience of non-dual
(10:41 PM) Thusness: get it?
(10:41 PM) AEN: ya
(10:42 PM) Thusness: understand besides the 5 aggregates there is no-self, this after non-duality can be experienced.
(10:42 PM) Thusness: there is no background
(10:42 PM) Thusness: but there is mental formation and perceptions..etc
(10:42 PM) Thusness: reacting to conditioning
(10:42 PM) Thusness: and therefore practice
(10:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:42 PM) Thusness: can u understand what i mean?
(10:42 PM) AEN: yea
(10:43 PM) Thusness: although huang po put it as everything as the one mind, one can still misunderstood in the advaita way.
(10:44 PM) AEN: oic how come
(10:44 PM) Thusness: so this must be stressed and the to me the correct way of understand in a more scientific method, it is better to see it from this view.
(10:44 PM) Thusness: the 5 aggregates and the 18 dhatus
(10:44 PM) Thusness: however u must also understood that 5 aggregates is already include the experience of non-duality
(10:45 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:45 PM) AEN: wat u mean by include the experience of non dual
(10:45 PM) Thusness: when longchen experience the non-duality, there is no background
(10:45 PM) Thusness: so he understand directly the meaning of what buddha said by no-self
(10:45 PM) Thusness: so what is he doing now?
(10:46 PM) Thusness: he is eliminating the sense of self
(10:46 PM) Thusness: that is the mental formation and perception aspect
(10:46 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:46 PM) Thusness: that is 'practice'
(10:46 PM) Thusness: get it?
(10:46 PM) AEN: ya
(10:47 PM) Thusness: now what is the elimination of the 3 aggregates?
(10:47 PM) AEN: hmm
(10:47 PM) AEN: like u said lor the sense of self and perception eliminated
(10:48 PM) Thusness: to put it across in common english, it is the experience of 'impersonality'
(10:48 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:48 PM) Thusness: i said to jonls
(10:48 PM) AEN: yea
(10:48 PM) Thusness: that one that experience non-duality need not experience impersonality
(10:48 PM) Thusness: that is what i mean
(10:48 PM) Thusness: do u understand what i meant?
(10:49 PM) Thusness: that is 5 aggregates is still not yet transformed to 18 dhatus
(10:49 PM) AEN: yea
(10:49 PM) Thusness: the experience of 'impersonality' is something like that
(10:50 PM) Thusness: only with a difference, one must first know no-self
(10:50 PM) Thusness: and experience non-duality
(10:50 PM) Thusness: to fully understand buddhism
(10:50 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:51 PM) AEN: u mean
(10:51 PM) Thusness: so when i tok in common language
(10:51 PM) AEN: even if experience 'impersonality' doesnt mean experience non-duality?
(10:51 PM) Thusness: yes
(10:51 PM) AEN: but also even if one experience non-duality doesnt mean experience impersonality?
(10:51 PM) AEN: lol
(10:51 PM) Thusness: yes
(10:51 PM) AEN: icic
(10:52 PM) Thusness: only through experience and cycles after cycles of refinement one can correctly discern it.
(10:52 PM) Thusness: otherwise it is mostly misunderstood.
(10:52 PM) Thusness: just like that steve inquist or what
(10:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:52 PM) AEN: wats wrong with steven norquist
(10:53 PM) Thusness: he must know the perception and mental formation
(10:53 PM) Thusness: and clearly discern non-dual experience without self
(10:53 PM) Thusness: then refine non-dual experience as in transforming 5 aggregates to 18 dhatus
(10:53 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:53 PM) Thusness: so u see longchen, he said perception get lesser
(10:53 PM) AEN: ya
(10:54 PM) Thusness: but the propensities are still there
(10:54 PM) Thusness: so there must be practice
(10:54 PM) Thusness: till one is very very clear and correctly discern the factors
(10:54 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:54 PM) Thusness: and understand the different levels of non-dual and what are eliminated
(10:54 PM) Thusness: and what are the experience like
(10:55 PM) Thusness: get it?
(10:55 PM) AEN: yea
(10:55 PM) Thusness: so don't make mistake
(10:55 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:55 PM) Thusness: i think i told few years back
(10:56 PM) Thusness: but u can't understand the essence of it even intellectually
(10:56 PM) AEN: oic
(10:56 PM) AEN: wat u said last time
(10:56 PM) AEN: lol
(10:56 PM) AEN: the 18 dhatus?
(10:56 PM) Thusness: i told u about the transformation
(10:56 PM) Thusness: yeah
(10:56 PM) AEN: orh ya
(10:56 PM) Thusness: but do u understand what i meant that time?
(10:57 PM) AEN: ya tink so
(10:57 PM) Thusness: kok ur head
(10:57 PM) AEN: lol
(10:57 PM) Thusness: that time u don't even know that 5 aggregates is already non-dual
(10:57 PM) AEN: hmma ya hahaha
(10:57 PM) Thusness: u don't even know that there is such experience as non-duality distinctly
(10:58 PM) AEN: icic
(10:58 PM) Thusness: even now u also not sure
(10:58 PM) Thusness: that is why i have to tell u
(10:58 PM) AEN: oic
(10:58 PM) Thusness: so u must know when i tell jonls, what is my intention and purpose
(10:58 PM) Thusness: can u see what i meant when i tok to him about that?
(10:58 PM) AEN: ya
(10:59 PM) Thusness: in understandable language, it is roughly that
(10:59 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:59 PM) AEN: btw last time u said wat.. after leading him to impersonality, next step is non dual?
(10:59 PM) Thusness: because he has not experienced non-duality
(11:00 PM) Thusness: means the mind isn't clear of the perception leap
(11:00 PM) Thusness: but the practice lead him to the experience of elimination of the perception and mental formation without the arising of wisdom
(11:00 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:01 PM) Thusness: that is why i have to point it out to him
(11:01 PM) Thusness: otherwise it wouldn't be necessary
(11:01 PM) Thusness: because it is a distinct phase
(11:01 PM) Thusness: and also an important phase
(11:01 PM) Thusness: can u see it?
(11:01 PM) AEN: yea
(11:02 PM) Thusness: means from "i am" to non-dual and then from 5 aggregates to 18 dhatus as the varying degree of non-duality
(11:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:03 PM) Thusness: so although we may think that we have understood the 5 aggregates and 18 dhatus, we really don't
(11:03 PM) Thusness: it may sound simple and belongs to the basic teaching of buddhism, but the most chim. :P
(11:04 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:04 PM) Thusness: u need to experience it and after many cycle of refinements to know.
(11:04 PM) Thusness: so don't just brush through the statements
(11:04 PM) AEN: oic
——
2008:
(11:56 AM) Thusness: longchen is like entering the 18 dhatus.
(11:56 AM) AEN: icic..
(11:57 AM) Thusness: or into DO (dependent origination)
(11:57 AM) Thusness: just the arising and passing away
(11:57 AM) Thusness: without the need for a center, a locality in a non-conceptual mode. :)
(11:58 AM) AEN: oic..
(11:59 AM) Thusness: depending on the depth of clarity and the ability to drop, there is a very deep joy in whatever arises in a normal condition.
(12:00 PM) Thusness: it is a sort of bliss of luminous presence without the sense of self, division, locality and conceptuality
(12:00 PM) Thusness: it can also turn into a sort of absorption.
(12:00 PM) Thusness: that is the result of clear insight of our empty luminosity.
(12:00 PM) Thusness: not the result of deep concentration.
(12:01 PM) Thusness: this is very difficult to understand.
(12:01 PM) Thusness: it is an effortless absorption.
———
Session Start: Friday, August 22, 2008
(12:29 AM) Thusness: U must watch the second video
(12:29 AM) AEN: which one
(12:29 AM) AEN: the one that explains oneness rite
(12:30 AM) Thusness: And know the difference between Advaita non-dual and buddhism anatta
(12:30 AM) Thusness: Not only that.
(12:30 AM) AEN: u mean the second or third video
(12:31 AM) Thusness: Second and third
(12:31 AM) AEN: btw the video is advaita non dual rite
(12:31 AM) Thusness: Second I watched liao.
(12:31 AM) AEN: icic
(12:31 AM) AEN: the third one is talking about wat.. momentum?
(12:31 AM) Thusness: The cartoon Yes...
(12:31 AM) AEN: icic
(12:32 AM) Thusness: The second is much deeper.
(12:32 AM) AEN: btw is that still stage based or like stage 2?
(12:32 AM) AEN: u mean the third video?
(12:32 AM) Thusness: The url I posted u.
(12:33 AM) AEN: huh which one
(12:33 AM) AEN: wait ah
(12:33 AM) AEN: the url u posted leads to the chanting :P
(12:33 AM) AEN: the first video
(12:34 AM) AEN: u're talking about the donkey one or wat
(12:34 AM) Thusness: ???? (Yuan Yin Lao Ren)
(12:34 AM) Thusness: No
(12:35 AM) Thusness: the second explanations
(12:35 AM) Thusness: I will watch all of it.
(12:35 AM) AEN: wait
(12:35 AM) Thusness: If I got time.
(12:35 AM) AEN: the one u said is in the same series rite?
(12:36 AM) Thusness: Yes
(12:37 AM) AEN: i cant find what ???? leh :P first one chanting, second one is the oneness, third one is the donkey, fourth is chanting beads
(12:37 AM) AEN: fifth is spider
(12:38 AM) Thusness: Then u posted wrongly on the buddhism forum.
(12:38 AM) AEN: o.0
(12:38 AM) AEN: then what u clicked.. lol
(12:38 AM) AEN: u said in the same series rite?
(12:38 AM) Thusness: Too bad. He is the level of practitioner I m looking for.
(12:38 AM) Thusness: But dead liao.
(12:38 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:39 AM) AEN: wait
(12:39 AM) AEN: u mean the ???? video is the cartoon series?
(12:39 AM) AEN: i mean
(12:39 AM) AEN: not*
(12:39 AM) Thusness: No
(12:39 AM) Thusness: Not cartoon.
(12:39 AM) AEN: ooh
(12:39 AM) AEN: then i wrong liao
(12:40 AM) AEN: btw the cartoon u said stage 2 understanding but stage 5 experience... then is that pathless?
(12:41 AM) Thusness: No
(12:41 AM) Thusness: The cartoon is not about emptiness
(12:41 AM) AEN: icic
(12:42 AM) Thusness: Some explanations r still ok
(12:42 AM) AEN: but is it pathless or stage like experience
(12:43 AM) Thusness: Not pathless
(12:43 AM) AEN: icic
(12:44 AM) Thusness: That is just my view.
(12:44 AM) Thusness: U just hv to know.
(12:44 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:44 AM) AEN: btw the ???? isit a 20 minute video?
(12:45 AM) Thusness: Longer than that
(12:45 AM) Thusness: Think abt an hour.
(12:46 AM) AEN: aiya u send me wrong URL just now :P
(12:46 AM) AEN: send me back to the cartoon.. hahaha
(12:46 AM) Thusness: If u can understand what he said, u will understand the essence of 5 and 6.
(12:46 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:46 AM) AEN: he also describe stage 6?
(12:47 AM) Thusness: Not describe but direct experience.
(12:47 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:48 AM) Thusness: One that broke the stage 5 and understand 6 but no philosophical concepts
(12:48 AM) Thusness: Direct experience
(12:48 AM) AEN: oic.. u mean he didnt use emptiness as raft?
(12:49 AM) Thusness: I dunno
(12:49 AM) AEN: oic
(12:49 AM) Thusness: Got to listen more.
(12:49 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:50 AM) Thusness: he is the sort of practitioner I seek for.
(12:50 AM) Thusness: Self liberation
(12:51 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:55 AM) Thusness is now Offline
(12:58 AM) AEN: btw the cartoons are not from ???? leh :P
(1:58 AM) AEN: ???? said he go pure land: ??????????????,?????????,??????????”,??,????????,
(1:58 AM) AEN: btw he vajrayana practitioner?
(2:45 AM) AEN: ahaha last part a bit funny, someone thought he attained enlightenment then call the master, the master told him u havent attain enlightenment yet :P http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=1672155&iid=9857580
(2:50 AM) AEN: the master seems to recommend chanting and rebirth in pure land more than meditation
(3:20 AM) AEN: http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=1672155&iid=9857580 -- video 19, 14:00 minute onwards, the master talk about shen hsiu's poem on the mirror is still grasping on form, hui neng's poem on mirror without stand is grasping on formless... and he made his own poem, ?????,?????
?????, ?????
(3:22 AM) AEN: ????: ???:“??????”???????????:“?????!”?????,???????????,??“????????”??????????????:“?????,??????”?????,?????????!“?????,?????”?????,????????????,?????,????,????!???????????????????
(3:40 PM) AEN: btw a few days ago i dreamt that u sent me a online video link and tell me go watch, then 2 days later u really send me a video link.. hahaha
(3:42 PM) Thusness: from non-dual to anatta and to emptiness. You must have clarity.
(3:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(3:42 PM) AEN: i just finished watching the first video
(3:43 PM) Thusness: the second one is important
(3:43 PM) AEN: oh u finished the part 2?
(3:43 PM) AEN: the one that started with tantric practice one
(3:43 PM) Thusness: then tell me why is it so important
(3:44 PM) Thusness: then u have to refine ur understanding of non-duality from ken wilber and advaita understanding and buddhism approach.
(3:44 PM) Thusness: When u have the experience later, u will know what i meant.
(3:44 PM) Thusness: but it is not easy.
(3:44 PM) AEN: oic..
(3:45 PM) Thusness: no self from the 5 aggregates to 18 dhatus to DO to Empty Luminosity.
(3:45 PM) AEN: icic..
(3:47 PM) AEN: btw u said the 2nd video
(3:47 PM) AEN: isit the one that started about tantric practice
(3:49 PM) Thusness: 36
(3:50 PM) Thusness: yes
(3:51 PM) AEN: ya that one it started discussing about tantric practice
(3:51 PM) AEN: i haven watch yet
(3:57 PM) Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle
(3:58 PM) AEN: i later then watch..
(3:58 PM) Thusness has changed his/her status to Online
(10:58 PM) AEN: the 2nd one is impt cos it incorporates emptiness rite, it talks about non duality but also explains that all forms are empty and impermanent
(11:01 PM) Thusness: Not only that.
(11:01 PM) Thusness: Compare what he said abt stage 6.
(11:03 PM) Thusness: Anyway I wrote something about stage 6.
(11:03 PM) Thusness: For u to have a clearer understanding.
(11:04 PM) Thusness: Why it is very important to have clear understanding of emptiness
(11:05 PM) Thusness: How u should move from non-dual to buddhist anatta, DO and emptiness.
(11:06 PM) AEN: icic.. ok
(11:08 PM) Thusness: After stabilizing non-dual experience, it is very important to establish firm view on Emptiness.
(11:08 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:09 PM) Thusness: Don't be afraid of establishing firm view of emptiness and DO.
(11:10 PM) Thusness: Don't be worried of being non-conceptual.
(11:10 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:11 PM) Thusness: Non-dual experience will lead u to non-conceptuality, to naked awareness naturally.
(11:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:13 PM) Thusness: But for prajna wisdom to arise, establish firmly ur understanding of DO and emptiness.
(11:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:16 PM) Thusness: After understanding of non-dual experience from the Buddha's teachings of anatta, DO and emptiness. u will become very clear.
(11:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:17 PM) Thusness: It needs few years to understand non-dual from Buddha's teachings.
(11:18 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:18 PM) Thusness: The pre-requisite is a stabilized non-dual experience.
(11:19 PM) AEN: oic ya longchen also realised emptiness after stabilizing his non dual experience and also 2-3 years after first realising non dual rite
(11:22 PM) Thusness: you will understand why impermanence yet no movement correctly.
(11:22 PM) Thusness: Yes...
(11:22 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:24 PM) Thusness: But still need to incorporate non-dual experience into anatta, emptiness and DO. This will need another 2-3 yrs.
(11:24 PM) Thusness: Will write something about it.
(11:25 PM) Thusness: It is very important.
(11:25 PM) AEN: u mean it will take another 2-3 years after stabilized non-dual experience?
(11:25 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:29 PM) Thusness: after stabilizing non-dual experience for 2y, another 2-3 yrs r needed to understand emptiness aspect of our non-dual luminosity.
(11:29 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:30 PM) AEN: so longchen is only beginning to understand emptiness and still needs a few years?
(11:30 PM) Thusness: Understand as in direct experience of the DO empty nature.
(11:30 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:30 PM) Thusness: Yes and that is just the beginning
(11:30 PM) AEN: oic
(11:32 PM) Thusness: I told u there will be a period of desync and practitioner will find it easier to rest in naked awareness
(11:32 PM) Thusness: But he will miss something valuable.
(11:33 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:34 PM) Thusness: not many can escape these phases.
(11:34 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:35 PM) Thusness: The video u need to hear a few times.
(11:35 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:35 PM) Thusness: Compare it with the comments on stage 6.
(11:35 PM) AEN: ok
(11:36 PM) Thusness: Know that insight must arise what 'feeling'
(11:37 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:37 PM) Thusness: What is most important in video 2?
(11:38 PM) AEN: emptiness?
(11:39 PM) Thusness: What emptiness?
(11:39 PM) Thusness: Which phrase?
(11:42 PM) AEN: many phrases :P
(11:43 PM) Thusness: Like?
(11:46 PM) Thusness: Don't paste whatever I told in the forum.
(11:46 PM) AEN: ok
(11:46 PM) AEN: i cant remember wat phrase liao
(11:49 PM) Thusness: Within a short video, there are some very important advices that only true practitioner that has intuitive insight
(11:50 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:50 PM) Thusness: Into emptiness and non-dual insight know
(11:50 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:12 PM) Thusness: what is the url for the buddhachat regarding ur conversation with Element?
(2:13 PM) AEN: http://www.buddhachat.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9891&page=6
(2:13 PM) AEN: havent posted since.. no time
(2:13 PM) Thusness: haha...ic. :)
(2:13 PM) Thusness: don't think of longchen non-conceptuality first.
(2:14 PM) Thusness: u should focus on the deepening ur clarity of advaita non-duality to buddhist form of non-duality aka anatta
(2:14 PM) Thusness: then emptiness
(2:15 PM) Thusness: then experience this until the entire teaching of Buddha becomes so clear to u.
(2:15 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:15 PM) Thusness: longchen's phase is also the result after understanding Emptiness
(2:16 PM) Thusness: and that understanding of Emptiness is aligning with his non-dual experiences
(2:16 PM) Thusness: therefore he is into right understanding of stage 6.
(2:17 PM) Thusness: but stage 6 is the right 'view' of non-duality and it has to burn the bonds of the senses first.
(2:17 PM) Thusness: then into non-registration of impressions.
(2:17 PM) Thusness: it is not suitable for u.
(2:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:18 PM) Thusness: because his non-dual experiences have stabilized, the understanding of emptiness helps in articulating all his non-dual experiences
(2:18 PM) Thusness: that is the arising of non-dual insight
(2:19 PM) Thusness: later it will become so clear as moment to moment of experience and the subtle 'bond' of the 6 senses gradually dissolve
(2:19 PM) Thusness: into one DO experience.
(2:20 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:20 PM) Thusness: so for you, u should first understand with clarity and know the various subtle stages and clarity of the differences.
(2:21 PM) Thusness: Even after aligning non-dual experience and emptiness view, the dissolving of the bond on each sense organ differs.
(2:22 PM) Thusness: a practitioner starts to walk out of meditation and find it easier to get authenticated in activities
(2:22 PM) Thusness: in opening eyes
(2:22 PM) Thusness: he walks and feel as if as the ground reality
(2:23 PM) Thusness: but when he/she returns to sitting quietly in meditation, that non-dual experience is gone.
(2:23 PM) Thusness: or is not that obvious
(2:23 PM) Thusness: that is what i meant by the subtle bond...
(2:23 PM) AEN: why when sitting the experience is gone
(2:37 PM) Thusness: Actually it is because we become more aware of the 'center'
(2:37 PM) Thusness: that is the 'center' is still there
(2:37 PM) Thusness: that 'center' becomes more obvious when we sit.
(2:38 PM) Thusness: that tendency becomes more obvious.
(2:38 PM) AEN: ooh no wonder u said
(2:38 PM) AEN:
1. There is a mirror reflecting dust. (“I AM”)
Mirror bright is experienced but distorted. Dualistic and Inherent seeing.
2. Dust is required for the mirror to see itself.
Non-Dualistic but Inherent seeing. (Beginning of non-dual insight)
3. Dust has always been the mirror ( The mirror here is seen as a whole)
Non-Dualistic and non- inherent insight.
(2:38 PM) AEN: btw the center is just a bond?
(2:38 PM) Thusness: just but the 'bond' is still strong
(2:39 PM) Thusness: there is some points u have to take note.
(2:39 PM) Thusness: a person after stabilizing non-dual experience and understanding emptiness
(2:39 PM) Thusness: is different from one that is not.
(2:40 PM) Thusness: that is, have no fear of establishing firm view on Emptiness especially for a non-dual experiencer
(2:40 PM) Thusness: because it becomes more of a medicine for the deeply held propensity
(2:41 PM) Thusness: the understanding will dissolve into non-conceptual experience of non-dual presence.
(2:42 PM) Thusness: the reason why non-dual experience become more difficult to maintain when not in activity is because Emptiness view has not replaced the deeply held dualistic/inherent view
(2:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:43 PM) Thusness: without the right view, a non-dual practitioner will still struggle unknowingly
(2:43 PM) Thusness: and naked awareness and non-conceptuality can at this phase becomes an escape
(2:43 PM) Thusness: so it depends which level a practitioner is in.
(2:44 PM) Thusness: once the view is firmly established, it serves as an antidote, when sitting, touch, taste, sound are emptiness and operate like DO.
(2:45 PM) Thusness: means first is the 5 aggregates, then 18 Dhatus then mere DO
(2:45 PM) Thusness: all are non-dual experience but the depth differs
(2:45 PM) Thusness: i told u about the 5 aggregates are already non-dual insight and experience right?
(2:46 PM) Thusness: then the extra layer of mental formation begin to subside, it stops registering imprints
(2:46 PM) Thusness: or begin to register less
(2:46 PM) Thusness: transforming to 18 dhatus without the mental formation
(2:47 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:47 PM) Thusness: but the previous tendency is still strong
(2:48 PM) Thusness: so sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, mind still act with the tendency
(2:49 PM) Thusness: now at this stage, one can rest in naked awareness or firmly establish the view of emptiness
(2:49 PM) Thusness: it will dissolve the six senses into one DO, empty nature
(2:49 PM) Thusness: just this is that is
(2:49 PM) Thusness: no eyes, ears...
(2:49 PM) Thusness: it is anchored at the deep most level
(2:50 PM) Thusness: practitioner will know it when sitting and opening eyes and all activities is becoming non-dual
(2:50 PM) Thusness: the sense of self almost dissolve
(2:50 PM) Thusness: then experiences become non dual and non local
(2:50 PM) Thusness: that is stage 6.
(2:50 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:51 PM) AEN: what does non local feel like
(2:51 PM) Thusness: it is just a 'bond' that there is locality
(2:51 PM) Thusness: that consciousness is at some place
(2:52 PM) Thusness: it is a clear experience of non-movement and all pervadingness
(2:52 PM) Thusness: yet ceaseless manifestation
(2:52 PM) AEN: the master talked of a story of su dong po went to fo yin chan shi and said something jokingly like why sit on this chair, no good or what.. then the zen master ask him all the 4 greats and 5 skandhas are empty, now tell me where are u sitting?
(2:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:53 PM) Thusness: what is no movement?
(2:53 PM) Thusness: there is arising and ceasing but there is no movement
(2:53 PM) Thusness: this is due to empty nature of our non-dual luminosity
(2:53 PM) Thusness: there is no from point A to point B
(2:54 PM) Thusness: there is A, B
(2:54 PM) Thusness: there is only movement when there is a from A to B
(2:54 PM) Thusness: but when the center is gone, non-dual experience align with Emptiness nature, this becomes clear
(2:55 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:55 PM) Thusness: after stabilizing stage 6 is the lou jing tong (from internet: 6. Asavakkaya - Supramundane knowledge or power relating to the destruction of asavas and the recognition of the Four Noble Truths)
(2:56 PM) Thusness: each dissolving of each organ becomes a tong (siddhi)
(2:56 PM) AEN: oic why
(2:56 PM) Thusness: because it becomes non local and non dual
(2:56 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:56 PM) Thusness: the 'bond' that prevents it is gone
(2:57 PM) Thusness: the 'bond' that limits and obstructs is gone
(2:57 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:57 PM) Thusness: but 'bond' is gone is mostly not obvious
(2:57 PM) Thusness: the 'bond' is very subtle
(2:58 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:58 PM) Thusness: so fearlessly open up
(2:58 PM) Thusness: let go of everything
(2:59 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:59 PM) AEN: sometimes v hard to let go leh, haha
(3:00 PM) Thusness: that is because u have not oriented urself totally with Emptiness nature
(3:00 PM) Thusness: this is very important
(3:00 PM) Thusness: but only after non-dual experience one can realise the importance
(3:00 PM) AEN: icic..
(3:00 PM) Thusness: u watch the video of the Master Yuan Yin
(3:01 PM) AEN: ya?
(3:01 PM) Thusness: u cannot grasp the essence?
(3:01 PM) AEN: need to watch again haha
(3:01 PM) Thusness: :)
(3:03 PM) AEN: another day maybe.. studying for exams.. and my mind today not so gd, a bit depressed over certain things.. heh
(3:03 PM) Thusness: work hard
(3:03 PM) Thusness: :)
(3:04 PM) AEN: ok thanks
———-
Session Start: Tuesday, 18 September, 2007
(8:54 PM) Thusness: what ur teacher chen is saying is more like as if u never existed...
(8:54 PM) Thusness: and thoughts just spontaneously happen
(8:54 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:55 PM) Thusness: as what i have told u.
(8:55 PM) Thusness: however u will not understand what is the meaning of this.
(8:55 PM) AEN: oic
(8:55 PM) AEN: its also something like self liberation rite
(8:55 PM) Thusness: it is but it is the sensation.
(8:55 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:55 PM) Thusness: it is not an analogy
(8:56 PM) Thusness: and when we tok about non-duality, what does that mean?
(8:56 PM) AEN: no separate self apart from whatever is arising?
(8:56 PM) Thusness: yes
(8:57 PM) Thusness: not beyond the two poles of opposites
(8:57 PM) Thusness: it is there is no separation.
(8:57 PM) Thusness: that is when seeing, there is just the seen
(8:57 PM) Thusness: there is no separation between the observed and the observer.
(8:58 PM) Thusness: there is no observer
(8:58 PM) Thusness: that is non-duality
(8:58 PM) Thusness: only the hearing, no hearer
(8:58 PM) Thusness: this is non-duality
(8:58 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:58 PM) Thusness: there is no separation between seer and seen
(8:58 PM) Thusness: hearer and the sound heard
(8:58 PM) Thusness: non-duality means no-self
(8:59 PM) Thusness: not beyond the two poles of opposites
(8:59 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:00 PM) AEN: btw u watch adyashanti's video yet ?
(9:00 PM) Thusness: nope
(9:00 PM) Thusness: still downloading i think
(9:00 PM) AEN: o icic..
(9:00 PM) Thusness: what is it about?
(9:01 PM) Thusness: by the way it is not only thoughts, sound, sight, breath...
(9:01 PM) Thusness: all are so.
(9:01 PM) AEN: hmm just wonder if tats description of non dual
(9:01 PM) Thusness: must treat all as so.
(9:01 PM) AEN: icic
(9:01 PM) Thusness: i mean what ur teacher chen meant.
(9:02 PM) Thusness: u must one day find it that it is so comfortable with no-self.
(9:02 PM) Thusness: u like and enjoy no-self
(9:02 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:02 PM) Thusness: then u r there.
(9:02 PM) AEN: icic
(9:02 PM) Thusness: as if u never existed and everything is happening
(9:02 PM) Thusness: every happening is perfectly complete
(9:03 PM) Thusness: without intervention.
(9:03 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:09 PM) AEN: btw u had any near death experience or read about it b4?
(9:09 PM) AEN: lol
(9:09 PM) Thusness: read about it
(9:09 PM) AEN: icic
(9:11 PM) AEN: that day teacher chen described about his near death experience and how the scientists mistakenly called it the tunnel of time or something... he said something like at the time of death consciousness will depart from the body, at that time there is a huge bright light (i tink tats the clear light) but then as long as the mind movement moves, then at that moment the consciousness will sort of enter into a tunnel.. cant remember if tats wat he said, but tats the point the person becomes lost and probably undergoes rebirth
(9:11 PM) Thusness: that day means what?
(9:12 PM) AEN: oh the other day i was watching one of the vcd
(9:13 PM) AEN: isit like the clear light is awareness but then there is mind movements then a person gets lost
(9:15 PM) Thusness: Don't take Adyashanti's teaching too seriously. :) (Comment by Soh: but Adyashanti's writings in recent years come from mature insight into anatta and total exertion and are highly recommended. But in his earlier years he was more into I AM and one mind)
(9:16 PM) AEN: oic haha how come
(9:17 PM) Thusness: what he said is quite true but it is not the way as described by him.
(9:18 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:23 PM) AEN: btw last time u said u practise visualisation rite
(9:23 PM) Thusness: yeah?
(9:23 PM) AEN: oic wat visualisation u practise
(9:24 PM) Thusness: it is different form of practice
(9:24 PM) Thusness: u dunno
(9:24 PM) Thusness: it is not buddhist practice
(9:24 PM) AEN: lz told us tat day about how visualisation can make something really appear... and how at death tat time, if u visualise or something, amitabha can appear right in front of u
(9:24 PM) AEN: huh
(9:24 PM) AEN: but i dun practise visualisation so i dunno haha
(9:24 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:29 PM) Thusness: a person should be real serious in being no-one and be thoroughly clear of what is 'self'
(9:29 PM) Thusness: and stop toking about nothing needs be done. :)
(9:29 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:30 PM) AEN: nothing needs to be done as in those neo advaita kind of statements? lol
(9:30 PM) Thusness: yeah
(9:30 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:30 PM) Thusness: u can say treat as if u never existed and experience the happening...
(9:31 PM) Thusness: u can tok about how conditioning fool us into believing that there is a 'self'
(9:31 PM) Thusness: how the entire process comes about
(9:31 PM) Thusness: u can tok about there is no one way towards it
(9:31 PM) Thusness: in fact saying don't search is meaningless
(9:32 PM) Thusness: that is just half the story
(9:32 PM) Thusness: it should be search until u truly understand the meaning of non-searching
(9:32 PM) Thusness: then it is complete
(9:32 PM) Thusness: for to understanding non-searching, searching is the condition
(9:33 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:34 PM) Thusness: what makes experience turns duality?
(9:34 PM) AEN: karmic propensity?
(9:34 PM) Thusness: self
(9:34 PM) Thusness: I hear
(9:34 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:34 PM) Thusness: I see
(9:34 PM) Thusness: that is separation
(9:35 PM) Thusness: the 'I' separates
(9:35 PM) AEN: oic
(9:35 PM) Thusness: when seeing, there is just the seen
(9:35 PM) Thusness: there is no separation
(9:35 PM) Thusness: then one must know the emptiness nature of the one life
(9:36 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:36 PM) AEN: emptiness nature of one life
(9:37 PM) AEN: as in realising non-locality?
(9:37 PM) Thusness: it is best not to tok about non-locality
(9:37 PM) Thusness: even non-duality will take one many lives to understand
(9:38 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:38 PM) AEN: but u said must know the emptiness nature of non duality also mah
(9:38 PM) Thusness: be without a center in all experiences
(9:38 PM) AEN: oic
(9:39 PM) Thusness: when adyashanti said all is the One...
(9:39 PM) Thusness: is sound the same as sight?
(9:39 PM) AEN: tink so
(9:39 PM) AEN: oh
(9:40 PM) AEN: sound and sight
(9:40 PM) AEN: hm
(9:40 PM) Thusness: is a song the same as the sky?
(9:40 PM) AEN: no..?
(9:40 PM) Thusness: is the current moment of thought, the same as the next moment of thought?
(9:40 PM) Thusness: is now ever the same at all?
(9:40 PM) Thusness: where is the one?
(9:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:41 PM) Thusness: he is right in saying we have to stop and thinking is the one that is causing the confusion
(9:41 PM) Thusness: :)
(9:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:42 PM) Thusness: confusion is the One.
(9:42 PM) Thusness: being lost is the one.
(9:42 PM) Thusness: yet I have no confusion at all
(9:43 PM) Thusness: that the 5 aggregates are already non-dual
(9:43 PM) Thusness: and 18 dhatus is also non dual
(9:43 PM) Thusness: and the in between what is causing the confusion
(9:43 PM) AEN: how come 'One' is confusion
(9:43 PM) Thusness: what are the factors
(9:43 PM) Thusness: the how of getting towards it
(9:43 PM) AEN: oic
(9:44 PM) Thusness: did u watch the video?
(9:44 PM) AEN: ya
(9:44 PM) Thusness: din u hear what he said?
(9:45 PM) AEN: orh the 'one' as in the thinker etc
(9:45 PM) Thusness: or
(9:45 PM) Thusness: no
(9:45 PM) Thusness: the One as the One reality.
(9:45 PM) Thusness: our buddha nature
(9:46 PM) AEN: oh icic
(9:46 PM) AEN: orhh okok
(9:46 PM) AEN: i get it
(9:46 PM) AEN: ya remember
(9:47 PM) Thusness: he must have deeper realisation of what is meant by 'self'. :)
(9:47 PM) Thusness: when u stand up, is there intention?
(9:47 PM) Thusness: when u brush ur teeth, is there intention?
(9:48 PM) AEN: think so
(9:48 PM) Thusness: yes
(9:48 PM) Thusness: is there a problem?
(9:48 PM) AEN: no
(9:48 PM) Thusness: so why is there a problem when u search?
(9:49 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:49 PM) AEN: so u mean searching is like the condition for realisation
(9:49 PM) Thusness: yes
(9:49 PM) AEN: and its ok
(9:49 PM) AEN: icic
(9:49 PM) AEN: like the intention and the brushing teeth
(9:49 PM) Thusness: when u search, u begin to understand what is non-seaching
(9:49 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:50 PM) Thusness: if u start by non-searching, u think that u r not searching but in reality, u are mistaken
(9:50 PM) Thusness: that sort of non-seaching is not the sort of non-searching after realisation from searching
(9:51 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:51 PM) Thusness: so when a person say the problem is with searching, he only knows half the story.
(9:51 PM) Thusness: he does not know the condition that leads to non-searching
(9:51 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:51 PM) AEN: wat sort of conditions lead to non searching
(9:52 PM) Thusness: searching
(9:52 PM) AEN: oic
(9:52 PM) Thusness: because i know then there is no confusion
(9:53 PM) Thusness: i am perfectly fine and contented
(9:53 PM) Thusness: i have no problem with sitting meditation and searching
(9:53 PM) Thusness: and yet i have experienced non-dual
(9:53 PM) Thusness: this is discernment
(9:54 PM) Thusness: if u were to tell a person non-searching from start
(9:54 PM) Thusness: he has no idea what u r toking about
(9:54 PM) Thusness: and even when u tell him that, it is wrong
(9:54 PM) Thusness: only when a person has searched sufficiently, he is equipped
(9:55 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:55 PM) Thusness: he knows because he knows what is searching
(9:55 PM) Thusness: he knows what is effort
(9:55 PM) Thusness: he knows the problems of efforting
(9:55 PM) Thusness: he sees how it reacts
(9:55 PM) Thusness: he 'sees' and the 'eyes' is open
(9:56 PM) Thusness: the entire process are setting up all the necessary conditions for non-searching to arise
(9:56 PM) Thusness: get it?
(9:56 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:56 PM) Thusness: without it, the non-searching is incomplete
(9:56 PM) Thusness: and it is not the non-searching all sages are toking about.
(9:56 PM) AEN: so u mean there has to be the experience of searching and discerning wats searching, then one can stop searching
(9:57 PM) AEN: icic
(9:57 PM) Thusness: yes
(9:57 PM) AEN: then ppl like tony parsons they're encouraging non-searching? or have i misunderstood
(9:57 PM) AEN: lol
(9:57 PM) Thusness: have u seen anyone born and does not search and yet know the entire full meaning of non-searching?
(9:57 PM) AEN: hmm no
(9:57 PM) Thusness: then why do u doubt?
(9:58 PM) Thusness: have u witness or have buddha taught or said anyone have done that b4?
(9:58 PM) AEN: but actually wat sort of searching wld lead to non searching lol
(9:58 PM) AEN: hmm no
(9:59 PM) Thusness: now have u witness great sages after going through cycles of searching of what is truth comes to understand what is the true meaning of non-searching?
(9:59 PM) AEN: ya
(9:59 PM) Thusness: has anyone not gone through that process?
(9:59 PM) AEN: dun tink so
(10:00 PM) Thusness: so within ur knowledge including buddha, none has indeed succeeded in that
(10:00 PM) AEN: icic.. yea
(10:01 PM) Thusness: isn't that sufficient to tell u that what are searching is necessary?
(10:01 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:01 PM) AEN: searching as in practising the teachings?
(10:01 PM) Thusness: so for one that focus and over-emphasize that non-searching is again fooled by his own thinking conditioning.
(10:01 PM) Thusness: yet not knowing it.
(10:01 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:02 PM) Thusness: therefore propensities are subtle.
(10:02 PM) Thusness: even the non-dual experiencers are not spared from it.
(10:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:05 PM) Thusness: so what is the diff?
(10:05 PM) Thusness: between the non-searching at the beginning and the non-searching at the end?
(10:05 PM) Thusness: what is the entire process about?
(10:05 PM) AEN: one is no insight one is got insight
(10:06 PM) Thusness: and how then can a person trying understand non-searching?
(10:06 PM) Thusness: insight of what?
(10:06 PM) AEN: searching?
(10:06 PM) Thusness: why can't a person from start know what is non-searching?
(10:07 PM) Thusness: why must he go through searching?
(10:07 PM) AEN: bcos if he dun even know wat is searching, then he cant understand wat is effort and the problems of effort?
(10:07 PM) Thusness: what is effort?
(10:07 PM) AEN: intentions?
(10:08 PM) Thusness: no good
(10:08 PM) Thusness: u have not understood what i said
(10:08 PM) AEN: oic
(10:09 PM) Thusness: because u need to be no-self in order to understand non-searching
(10:09 PM) Thusness: and the understanding must be very very thorough
(10:09 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:09 PM) Thusness: a person from start have absolutely no idea of what is no-self and what is self
(10:10 PM) Thusness: get it
(10:10 PM) Thusness: all actions are full of self.
(10:10 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:10 PM) AEN: yea
(10:11 PM) Thusness: when a person sit and not doing anything
(10:11 PM) Thusness: one is without center
(10:11 PM) Thusness: the other has a center
(10:12 PM) AEN: toni packer also said something, she said 'unless effortlessness prevails, you cannot help making an effort' and said its the way our constitution and conditioning world, when toking about effortlessness its either a concept or we're really in that state of no effort, just openness without 'me'
(10:12 PM) AEN: oic
(10:13 PM) AEN: *conditioning work
(10:14 PM) AEN: one without center -- after insight, one with center -- before insight ?
(10:14 PM) Thusness: u can say so.
(10:14 PM) AEN: icic
(10:15 PM) Thusness: but one has to go through a process of stability
(10:15 PM) Thusness: and the key is in dropping
(10:15 PM) Thusness: that is why second door is very important
(10:15 PM) Thusness: and it is dropping the entirety of the self
(10:15 PM) Thusness: as if u never existed
(10:15 PM) Thusness: that is why 2nd door is very important after non-dual experience
(10:16 PM) Thusness: one must put in all effort in dropping
(10:16 PM) Thusness: until as if the 'i' never existed
(10:16 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:18 PM) AEN: its like nothing stays at all, nothing exists, so everything is dropped?
(10:18 PM) Thusness: that is the effect
(10:19 PM) Thusness: it is absolutely no center
(10:19 PM) Thusness: no 'I' at all.
(10:19 PM) Thusness: u will find it very hard to understand now because there is no clarity of what exactly constitute the 'I'.
(10:20 PM) Thusness: but for one that understand and realised what the 'I' is all about, then he is very comfortable.
(10:20 PM) Thusness: then he will know that what u said is the effect
(10:20 PM) Thusness: as if painting on pond like what i have posted
(10:20 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:21 PM) Thusness: that is i don't attempt or try not to hold on to anything
(10:22 PM) Thusness: but i understand deeply and eliminate the whole notion of it and naturally i do not hold at all.
(10:22 PM) Thusness: whole notion of 'I' i mean
(10:22 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:22 PM) Thusness: giving up entirely the center
(10:23 PM) Thusness: no center at all
(10:23 PM) Thusness: then there is no holding
(10:23 PM) Thusness: as if I never existed
(10:23 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:23 PM) Thusness: like what jeff described
(10:23 PM) AEN: oic
(10:24 PM) Thusness: he must be so comfortable with no center
(10:24 PM) Thusness: practice until it stabilizes
(10:24 PM) Thusness: requires few years
(10:24 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:25 PM) Thusness: i got to go now
(10:26 PM) AEN: ok..
(10:26 PM) AEN: gd nite
(10:26 PM) Thusness is now Offline
(11:25 PM) AEN: http://www.watnongpahpong.org/ebooks/chahenglish/the_teachings_of_ajahn_chah/Two_Faces_Reality1.php
(11:26 PM) Thusness is now Online
(11:26 PM) AEN: some of wat ajahn chah said sounds a bit like 'i am' or 'witness' leh
(11:26 PM) AEN: eh u logged in
(11:26 PM) AEN: lol
(11:26 PM) AEN: he say as if 'mind' is the center which knows
(11:26 PM) Thusness: yeah
(11:26 PM) AEN: "
Watching a spider like this can give rise to wisdom. Our six senses have mind at the center surrounded by eye, ear, nose, tongue and body. When one of the senses is stimulated, for instance, form contacting the eye, it shakes and reaches the mind. The mind is that which knows, that which knows form. Just this much is enough for wisdom to arise. It's that simple. "
(11:27 PM) AEN: "
This is all that we have to know - sitting and contemplating that spider. Just this much and wisdom can arise spontaneously. Our mind is comparable to the spider, our moods and mental impressions are comparable to the various insects. That's all there is to it! The senses envelop and constantly stimulate the mind; when any of them contact something, it immediately reaches the mind. The mind then investigates and examines it thoroughly, after which it returns to the center. This is how we abide - alert, acting with precision and always mindfully comprehending with wisdom. Just this much and our practice is complete. "
(11:27 PM) Thusness: yes i realised that too
(11:28 PM) AEN: icic.. remember the monk who criticised ajahn maha boowa for some eternalistic inclination, he also criticize ajahn chah for the same thing lol
(11:29 PM) Thusness: yes.
(11:33 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:34 PM) Thusness is now Offline
(2:47 AM) AEN: "
When you first become aware of something, there is a fleeting instant of pure awareness just before you conceptualize the thing, before you identify it. That is a stage of Mindfulness. Ordinarily, this stage is very short. It is that flashing split second just as you focus your eyes on the thing, just as you focus your mind on the thing, just before you objectify it, clamp down on it mentally and segregate it from the rest of existence. It takes place just before you start thinking about it--before your mind says, "Oh, it's a dog." That flowing, soft-focused moment of pure awareness is Mindfulness. In that brief flashing mind-moment you experience a thing as an un-thing. You experience a softly flowing moment of pure experience that is interlocked with the rest of reality, not separate from it. Mindfulness is very much like what you see with your peripheral vision as opposed to the hard focus of normal or central vision. Yet this moment of soft, unfocused, awareness contains a very deep sort of knowing that is lost as soon as you focus your mind and objectify the object into a
(2:47 AM) AEN: thing. In the process of ordinary perception, the Mindfulness step is so fleeting as to be unobservable. We have developed the habit of squandering our attention on all the remaining steps, focusing on the perception, recognizing the perception, labeling it, and most of all, getting involved in a long string of symbolic thought about it. That original moment of Mindfulness is rapidly passed over. It is the purpose of the above mentioned Vipassana (or insight) meditation to train us to prolong that moment of awareness.
(2:48 AM) AEN: is this about the 5 skhandas transforming into the 18 dhatus u were talking about? or the impersonality?
Session Start: Friday, 9 November, 2007
(4:10 PM) Thusness: back.
(4:10 PM) AEN is now Online
(4:10 PM) AEN: hi
(4:11 PM) AEN: btw did u see the msg i sent u about longchen just now?
(4:11 PM) Thusness: about what he said?
(4:12 PM) AEN: yea
(4:12 PM) Thusness: yes
(4:13 PM) Thusness: he is beginning to see life as the arising as 'yuan'.
(4:13 PM) Thusness: but one must deepen this to be the entire manifestation is 'yuan shen'
(4:14 PM) Thusness: the whole of orientation must be DO
(4:14 PM) AEN: oic..
(4:14 PM) Thusness: that is our nature is emptiness that is a lil tough.
(4:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(4:15 PM) Thusness: what else he said about yuan?
(4:15 PM) AEN: hmm.. cant remember
(4:16 PM) Thusness: buddha said when hearing, there is just the sound
(4:16 PM) Thusness: what do u understand by this
(4:17 PM) Thusness: and this is the way of experiencing nirvana
(4:17 PM) AEN: he also tok about tat, say when pain arise its the universe feeling pain
(4:17 PM) AEN: no self
(4:18 PM) Thusness: u
(4:18 PM) AEN: ?
(4:18 PM) Thusness: what do u understand by it
(4:19 PM) AEN: hmm tat means hearing is there by itself, there is absolutely no self in relation to it, that can manipulate, stop it, seek it, etc
(4:19 PM) AEN: and no observer, etc
(4:20 PM) Thusness: what else?
(4:20 PM) AEN: the sound itself knows?
(4:20 PM) AEN: the hearing
(4:20 PM) Thusness: what else?
(4:21 PM) AEN: hmm
(4:21 PM) AEN: no background?
(4:21 PM) Thusness: nope
(4:22 PM) AEN: oic
(4:22 PM) AEN: conditions
(4:22 PM) AEN: conditioned arising as manifestation
(4:22 PM) Thusness: okie...dwell deeper
(4:23 PM) AEN: conditions therefore empty, and never staying for a moment
(4:23 PM) Thusness: good...go further...i will explain to u later
(4:25 PM) AEN: self arising and self liberating?
(4:25 PM) Thusness: no
(4:25 PM) AEN: oic
(4:25 PM) Thusness: when hearing, there is just the sound
(4:26 PM) Thusness: what is the whole of that moment?
(4:26 PM) AEN: just the whole lor.. undefinable
(4:26 PM) Thusness: u r using concept
(4:26 PM) Thusness: what is the whole of that moment?
(4:27 PM) AEN: just conditioned arising?
(4:27 PM) Thusness: nope...what is the whole of that moment?
(4:28 PM) AEN: seeing, hearing, etc
(4:28 PM) Thusness: where got seeing?
(4:28 PM) Thusness: when hearing, there is just the sound
(4:28 PM) Thusness: what is the whole of that moment?
(4:28 PM) AEN: just the sound?
(4:28 PM) Thusness: yes
(4:28 PM) AEN: oic..
(4:28 PM) Thusness: u r reacting using ur thoughts
(4:29 PM) Thusness: when hearing there is just the sound
(4:29 PM) Thusness: yet u can't hear
(4:29 PM) Thusness: isn't what buddha said plain enough
(4:29 PM) Thusness: just the sound
(4:29 PM) AEN: icic..
(4:30 PM) Thusness: the whole of that moment is just the sound!
(4:30 PM) Thusness: and sound is that reality.
(4:30 PM) Thusness: all of it.
(4:30 PM) Thusness: all of the universe is this sound.
(4:30 PM) Thusness: get it?
(4:31 PM) AEN: but at the same time theres no 'all the universe' isnt it.. thats just a concept
(4:31 PM) Thusness: it is an expression to indicate 'all'
(4:31 PM) AEN: icic.. yea
(4:31 PM) Thusness: so do u understand that?
(4:31 PM) AEN: so when avatamsaka said something like universe in an atom, it meant this?
(4:31 PM) AEN: yea
(4:32 PM) Thusness: when u touch, there is coldness
(4:32 PM) Thusness: what is the reality?
(4:32 PM) AEN: luminous emptiness? conditioned arising?
(4:32 PM) Thusness: no
(4:32 PM) AEN: just the coldness?
(4:32 PM) Thusness: yes
(4:32 PM) AEN: icic..
(4:33 PM) Thusness: when u see, there is just the scenary
(4:33 PM) Thusness: what is the reality?
(4:33 PM) AEN: scenery?
(4:33 PM) Thusness: so now...at that moment, what is all of it at that moment?
(4:33 PM) AEN: keyboard, typing, screen? lol
(4:34 PM) Thusness: nope i mean at that moment, all of it....what is that moment?
(4:34 PM) Thusness: sound, coldness, scenary
(4:34 PM) AEN: oic yea
(4:34 PM) Thusness: what are all these moments?
(4:35 PM) AEN: just as u said lor
(4:35 PM) AEN: conditions?
(4:35 PM) Thusness: go on
(4:35 PM) Thusness: what is it
(4:36 PM) AEN: dependent arising lor.. this is, that is
(4:37 PM) Thusness: what is it?
(4:38 PM) AEN: dunno
(4:38 PM) AEN: lol
(4:38 PM) Thusness: it's ur pristine awareness
(4:39 PM) AEN: o icic..
(4:39 PM) Thusness: the whole of Reality that is ur pristine awareness is at that moment
(4:40 PM) Thusness: never the same and never remain
(4:40 PM) Thusness: no behind background
(4:40 PM) Thusness: nothing besides the crystal clear manifestation of appearances
(4:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(4:40 PM) Thusness: complete and fully real and gone
(4:41 PM) Thusness: its nature is empty
(4:41 PM) Thusness: ur mind is full of concepts and thoughts
(4:41 PM) Thusness: dual
(4:41 PM) Thusness: so much so that when u hear, u don't hear
(4:41 PM) Thusness: see and yet not see
(4:41 PM) Thusness: therefore reality is not experienced
(4:41 PM) Thusness: emptiness nature not known
(4:42 PM) Thusness: all conditions and causes arise for the moment, is complete, whole and manifest at that moment as sound
(4:42 PM) Thusness: coldness
(4:42 PM) Thusness: scenery
(4:42 PM) Thusness: is sound having a causal relation with the coldness?
(4:43 PM) AEN: not in the usual cause and effect sense?
(4:43 PM) Thusness: think about it...don't ask me.
(4:43 PM) Thusness: if u want to know the meaning of non-moving
(4:43 PM) Thusness: u need to understand what is meant by complete and whole at the moment
(4:44 PM) Thusness: non-movement nature of impermanence
(4:44 PM) AEN: icic..
(4:44 PM) Thusness: is the ant hearing the same sound?
(4:44 PM) AEN: nope
(4:44 PM) AEN: there is no same sound, only conditions
(4:45 PM) Thusness: what is the entire reality of the ant at that moment?
(4:45 PM) AEN: dunnu... just conditions lor
(4:45 PM) Thusness: a manifestation of DO
(4:45 PM) AEN: icic
(4:46 PM) Thusness: when hearing there is just the sound, is the sound real?
(4:46 PM) AEN: yea tats just awareness
(4:46 PM) Thusness: :)
(4:46 PM) Thusness: most clear and most real
(4:46 PM) Thusness: and gone
(4:46 PM) Thusness: the nature is empty
(4:46 PM) Thusness: there is no background behind anything
(4:46 PM) AEN: icic..
(4:47 PM) Thusness: the dualistic propensity makes us think so
(4:47 PM) Thusness: what about to an ant?
(4:47 PM) AEN: also the same..
(4:47 PM) Thusness: :)
(4:47 PM) Thusness: 'the reality' does not exist
(4:47 PM) Thusness: awareness is non-dual and yet empty
(4:48 PM) Thusness: there is no hearer is the heard is no dual, yet the nature is empty. :)
(4:48 PM) Thusness: understand?
(4:48 PM) AEN: yea..
(4:48 PM) Thusness: complete and not linked
(4:48 PM) Thusness: reality is momentary
(4:49 PM) Thusness: and instantaneously it is gone
(4:49 PM) Thusness: a dual world of object and subject is taught
(4:49 PM) Thusness: it is not the true face of reality
(4:49 PM) AEN: icic..
(4:49 PM) Thusness: first is non-dual, then is the emptiness nature
(4:50 PM) Thusness: how is the one many?
(4:50 PM) Thusness: it is because the nature is empty
(4:50 PM) Thusness: get it?
(4:51 PM) AEN: icic..
(4:51 PM) AEN: yea
(4:52 PM) Thusness: the purpose of emptiness is to break this rigidity of object-subject worldview
(4:53 PM) Thusness: although one experiences non-duality, his worldview is still very much affected by this dualistic worldview
(4:53 PM) Thusness: unable to oriented himself fully even after the experience
(4:54 PM) Thusness: emptiness though a raft helps an non-dualist orientate his experience and explains how the observer is really the observed
(4:54 PM) AEN: oic..
(4:56 PM) Thusness: emptiness though a raft helps a non-dualist orientates his experience and explains how the observer is really the observed --> u must practice to understand the essence of it.
(4:56 PM) AEN: icic..
(4:56 PM) Thusness: Buddha never view our buddha nature as a background
(4:56 PM) AEN: means practice seeing emptiness, not grasping on anything and just flow with conditions?
(4:57 PM) Thusness: is there a need to tok about no-self, impermanence and DO if buddha nature is the background?
(4:58 PM) AEN: no self, impermanence and DO means buddha nature is not a background?
(4:59 PM) Thusness: is there a need to tok about the seals and DO if buddha nature is a background?
(4:59 PM) AEN: no
(4:59 PM) Thusness: the emptiness nature of luminosity is most difficult to see.
(5:00 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:00 PM) Thusness: karmic propensity is a spell, don't just laugh at it. :)
(5:00 PM) Thusness: this habitual tendency blinds and bonds us life after life.
(5:01 PM) Thusness: so we should not act smart and overlook it.
(5:01 PM) AEN: icic..
(5:02 PM) Thusness: so i said, only a person after no-self, emptiness then can tok about spontaneous arising
(5:02 PM) Thusness: u know why now?
(5:02 PM) Thusness: otherwise a person is still efforting.
(5:02 PM) Thusness: because the wrong view is there.
(5:02 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:03 PM) Thusness: u must have clarity at least intellectually
(5:03 PM) Thusness: so summarize it.
(5:03 PM) Thusness: do when ppl ask, don't know this and that and say forgotten. :P
(5:04 PM) Thusness: :)
(5:03 PM) AEN: do or dont? lol
(5:03 PM) AEN: ok..
(5:04 PM) Thusness: lol don't
(5:04 PM) Thusness: :)
(5:14 PM) Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle
(5:16 PM) Thusness has changed his/her status to Online
(5:16 PM) AEN: back
(5:16 PM) AEN: sinweiy just asked me a question on middle way.. lol
(5:16 PM) AEN: xinwei says:
wat can u understand by "That, being a dependent designation
Is itself the middle way."?
(5:16 PM) AEN: xinwei says:
https://www.dalailama.com/page.176.htm
(5:17 PM) AEN: xinwei says:
i noe "Whatever is dependently arisen
That is explained to be emptiness."
(5:17 PM) AEN: xinwei says:
but "That, being a dependent designation
Is itself the middle way."?
(5:17 PM) AEN: i add him to this convo ok? :P
(5:17 PM) Thusness: no
(5:17 PM) AEN: haha ok
(5:18 PM) AEN: and he also ask: xinwei says:
why he change the word arisen to designation.
(5:18 PM) Thusness: That, being a dependent designation
Is itself the middle way...this is good.
(5:18 PM) AEN: oic wat does it mean
(5:18 PM) Thusness: DO
(5:18 PM) AEN: yea y middle way
(5:18 PM) Thusness: din I tell u few years back what is meant by middle?
(5:18 PM) AEN: weeks?
(5:18 PM) Thusness: this is, that is
(5:18 PM) AEN: icic yea
(5:18 PM) Thusness: few years back
(5:19 PM) AEN: oh then i dunno..
(5:19 PM) AEN: few weeks u got tell me a bit
(5:19 PM) AEN: about longchen
(5:19 PM) Thusness: i explain to u what is meant by being middle
(5:19 PM) AEN: cant remember leh..
(5:19 PM) Thusness: what u asked me what is meant by 'right'
(5:19 PM) AEN: isit?
(5:19 PM) Thusness: yeah
(5:19 PM) AEN: no memories..
(5:19 PM) AEN: u sure is me?
(5:19 PM) AEN: lol
(5:19 PM) Thusness: lol
(5:20 PM) Thusness: but it is related to what i told u just now
(5:20 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:20 PM) Thusness: experientially how is non-dual related to emptiness
(5:21 PM) AEN: conditions is the pristine awareness, complete, real, and yet never staying for a moment... empty
(5:21 PM) AEN: there is no reality apart from conditions
(5:21 PM) Thusness: yes
(5:22 PM) Thusness: when i told u about the sound, do u understand?
(5:22 PM) AEN: back
(5:22 PM) AEN: yea
(5:23 PM) Thusness: and the ant?
(5:24 PM) AEN: also just conditions
(5:24 PM) AEN: brb dunnu y i cant press enter lol
(5:24 PM) Thusness: i got to go. :) Depend on ur 'yuan'. :)
(5:24 PM) AEN: yea the conditions
(5:24 PM) AEN: ok cya..
(5:29 PM) Thusness: just remembered that i wrote about what i told u to longchen in his forum a year back.
(5:29 PM) Thusness: ehee
(5:29 PM) AEN: on the non dual and karmic tendencies one?
(5:30 PM) Thusness: hmm....did u read b4...i forgotten under which thread
(5:31 PM) AEN: haha my keyboard damn funny, all the keys can, but 'enter', 'esc' key all stopped working :P had to click 'send' to send msg
(5:31 PM) AEN: hold on
(5:31 PM) AEN: oh wait my enter key worked on sgforums... lol. i tink msn problem
(5:31 PM) AEN: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=225462
(5:34 PM) Thusness: nope
(5:34 PM) Thusness: his forum
(5:34 PM) Thusness: ehehe
(5:34 PM) Thusness: but din know i wrote that post...quite good :P
(5:34 PM) Thusness: :P
(5:35 PM) AEN: wahahah
(5:36 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:36 PM) Thusness: found it.
(5:36 PM) Thusness: u should link this with what i explain to u just now...
(5:36 PM) Thusness: http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1144283820
(5:38 PM) Thusness: let this non-dual and emptiness knowledge penetrate every of ur cells. :P
(5:38 PM) Thusness: into ur bones and flow in ur blood. :)
(5:39 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:40 PM) AEN: brb i restart my msn.. problematic
Session Start: Friday, 9 November, 2007
(5:41 PM) AEN: back
(5:41 PM) Thusness: http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1144283820, this is the thread. :)
(5:41 PM) Thusness: read what longchen wrote also.
(5:42 PM) AEN: okie
(5:47 PM) Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle
(7:36 PM) Thusness: going to complete my project and wait for answer next year. :P
(7:36 PM) Thusness: hope everything goes well and smooth
(8:22 PM) AEN: back
(8:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:26 PM) AEN: btw longchen said some jobs require alot of effort or grasping to be done well. when he try to completely let go or degrasp, things may not be done that well.. so his job performance may be affected
(9:26 PM) AEN: tats also y he wanna change job
(10:00 PM) Thusness: he should spent more quality hours in meditation...
(10:01 PM) Thusness: its okie to grasp and do well for his job even though the sense of self arise
(10:01 PM) AEN: oic how come
(10:01 PM) AEN: y shld he spend more hours in mediation and y sense of self arise is ok?
(10:02 PM) Thusness: because that is a form of practice
(10:02 PM) AEN: what is a form of practice?
(10:03 PM) Thusness: his job.
(10:03 PM) Thusness: however if it takes up even the quality hours for practice, then he must consider changing job. :)
(10:03 PM) AEN: u mean if no time to meditate, change job?
(10:04 PM) Thusness: yes. :)
(10:04 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:05 PM) Thusness: even when one experiences non-duality, when situation where conditions are strong for dualism to take place, non-dualists face problem too.
(10:06 PM) Thusness: and the situation really present itself as a good opportunity for practice.
(10:06 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:06 PM) Thusness: there will be a lot of grasping and spending quality hours in meditation is important
(10:07 PM) Thusness: the grasping will create the strong contrast when one sits especially for non-dualists becauses the pathless is already seen.
(10:07 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:07 PM) AEN: y pathless is seen then create strong contrast?
(10:08 PM) Thusness: but if the job nature is too unreasonable, then he should change for a better job but not so much for spirituality.
(10:09 PM) Thusness: when the pathless is seen, he already know the 'how' of directly experiencing our buddha nature
(10:09 PM) Thusness: just that when condition becomes harsh, the sense of self arises and throws one out of non-dual and force us to think dualistically to react
(10:10 PM) Thusness: but that is rather the result of a lack of strength in practice
(10:10 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:11 PM) Thusness: but until a certain stage, he should look for a job that allows him to have more time to experience the deeper clarity and luminosity aspect
(10:11 PM) Thusness: especially once the emptiness nature is clearly seen
(10:11 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:12 PM) Thusness: one should feel the most of each moment of sensation
(10:12 PM) Thusness: as if each moment is the crux of experience
(10:12 PM) AEN: oic..
13th November 2007, 8:33AM
It is clear that the basic is sufficient. Only right experience and insight are necessary. :)
Late 2007, could be 2nd December 2007:
(9:31 AM) Thusness: Supreme Source is a very good book. You should get it.
(9:32 AM) AEN: ic.. actually last year i already wanna buy it then i tink looks a bit chim.. next time then i buy la
(9:32 AM) AEN: haha
(9:32 AM) Thusness: But it should be regarded as the final path of realisation.
(9:32 AM) AEN: also gd.. i tink start on easier books better. but i going to get supreme source also
(9:32 AM) AEN: oic
(9:32 AM) Thusness: So without non-duality and emptiness, one should not think that he/she understood the teachings.
(9:32 AM) AEN: icic..
(9:35 AM) Thusness: The translator is also pretty good. Nevertheless he is unable to bring out the essence of it but Choygal Namkhai Rinpoche comments are wonderful. How amazing that the same words undergoing different translators can be so drastically different.
(9:36 AM) Thusness: The books translated by John is not as clear as those translated by Adriano Clemente.
ok anyway...
(9:45 AM) Thusness: I am in self-liberation now.
(9:46 AM) Thusness: for the past 1-2 weeks, my practice has been on going without effort.
(9:46 AM) Thusness: and this supreme source touches me deeply.
(9:47 AM) AEN: oic..
(9:47 AM) Thusness: U should get it.
(9:47 AM) AEN: wah u in 10th bhumi now?
(9:47 AM) Thusness: cannot say so lah...
(9:47 AM) Thusness: don't anyhow say
(9:47 AM) AEN: hahaha
(9:48 AM) Thusness: the conditions can differ a lot...and the fruition differ too.
(9:48 AM) AEN: wat do u mean
(9:48 AM) Thusness: I may have experienced the essence but is not at that stage.
(9:48 AM) Thusness: so don't anyhow go around say.
(9:49 AM) AEN: hahaha ok
(9:49 AM) AEN: u know tat day rite.. nub damn funny
(9:49 AM) Thusness: but there is no more meditation needed for me.
(9:49 AM) AEN: oh
(9:49 AM) AEN: so are u still meditating?
(9:49 AM) Thusness: hmm....still but in essence, it is a different dimension.
(9:49 AM) AEN: hahaha ok
(9:49 AM) AEN: u know tat day rite.. nub damn funny
(9:49 AM) Thusness: but there is no more meditation needed for me
(6:00 PM) AEN: http://www.khandro.net/Buddhism_maha_stages.htm
(6:00 PM) AEN: The Dagpo Kagyu tradition matches Mahamudra in 5 Paths to the 10 bhumis. In that system, the 5 Paths are that of:
1. Accumulation
2. Juncture
3. Seeing
4. Meditation
5. No-More-Meditation
(6:00 PM) AEN: or
(6:00 PM) AEN: 1. One-Pointedness
2. Simplicity
3. One-Taste
4. Non-Meditation
(6:01 PM) AEN: "From there you can go up through the bhumis, starting with the lowest level of practice of the second stage of realization, that of freedom from projection; this would be the second bodhisattva bhumi. The middle level of practice at that state would be the third, and the highest level of practice at that stage is the fourth. Then, the three stages of yogic realization of one taste correspond to the fifth, sixth, and seventh. Then finally, the three levels of practice at the highest level of realization correspond to the last three, the eighth, ninth, and tenth bodhisattva bhumis. Once one has attained the eighth bodhisattva bhumi, this is considered to be the enlightenment of the Buddha, but it has to be filled out in the ninth and finally, in the tenth stage."
(6:01 PM) AEN: it says "Once one has attained the eighth bodhisattva bhumi, this is considered to be the enlightenment of the Buddha, but it has to be filled out in the ninth and finally, in the tenth stage."
(6:01 PM) AEN: and that is the "no more meditation stage"
(1:36 PM) Thusness: the non-meditation is not the meditation layman is talking about.
(1:37 PM) Thusness: to layman, it should be non-practice
(1:37 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:37 PM) Thusness: because practice by itself to the lay goes beyond sitting meditation.
(1:38 PM) Thusness: Lesser One-Taste: Seventh bhumi
Medium One-Taste: Eighth bhumi
Greater One-Taste: Ninth bhumi (to immediate attainment of Tenth)
(1:39 PM) Thusness: this is interesting.
(1:39 PM) Thusness: Greater One-Taste to immediate attainment of tenth...
(1:40 PM) Thusness: it should be noted that at the lesser One-Taste, there is also the temptation to think that meditation is no more necessary.
(1:40 PM) Thusness: This is the case that is written by Longchen.
(1:41 PM) Thusness: But when insights deepen to include emptiness and integrating conditions, further insight of non-meditation arise.
(1:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:43 PM) Thusness: as self is (almost totally disregarded) and dualistic worldview is replaced with Oneness, one never says 'self' as there is never anything inherent.
(1:43 PM) Thusness: any arising is buddha nature but it is always in meeting, in arising, in DO.
(1:43 PM) Thusness: and practice is always in direct arising when condition meets.
(1:44 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:44 PM) AEN: u know dharma dan also say after arhat no need meditate rite? even tho its still beneficial, but theres no more need
(1:44 PM) AEN: something like tat
(1:44 PM) AEN: but he still meditates i tink
(1:44 PM) Thusness: hmm....where he say hah?
(1:44 PM) Thusness: u got the url?
(1:45 PM) AEN: ok hold on
(1:45 PM) AEN: http://web.mac.com/danielmingram/iWeb/Daniel%20Ingram%27s%20Dharma%20Blog/The%20Blook/51EE7943-0A69-488A-B5B0-3C8F2EF7C5E8.html
(1:45 PM) AEN:
Finally, the Wisdom Eye cycles and insight cycles all converge, and the thing stays open from then on, which is to say that at that point it all seems the same whether or not the eye is open, which it actually was. That being seen, nothing can erode or disturb the centerlessness of perspective. Done is what is to be done, and life goes on. That there are arahats who have opened the Wisdom Eye but had it fade and those who have opened it and had it stay open is rarely mentioned but worth knowing.
For the arahat who has kept the thing open, there is nothing more to be gained on the ultimate front from insight practices, as ?done is what is to be done?. That said, insight practices can still be of great benefit to them for a whole host of reasons, there is a ton they can learn just like everyone else about everything else there is to learn. They can grow, develop, change, work and participate in this strange human drama just like everyone else.
(1:45 PM) AEN: not really meditate la, but 'insight practice'
(1:47 PM) AEN: wat u tink
(1:47 PM) Thusness: yes.
(1:48 PM) Thusness: very true but that clarity should include emptiness nature, not just that one-taste (non-dual).
(1:49 PM) Thusness: There is a difference.
(1:49 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:49 PM) AEN: but u said dharma dan knows about emptiness rite?
(1:50 PM) Thusness: hm...yes but it is very difficult to differentiate
(1:50 PM) Thusness: there are two distinct experiences
(1:51 PM) Thusness: one is like what longchen said and one is really meditation is treated as irrelevant
(1:51 PM) Thusness: that is sitting meditation is completely irrelevant but one will still sit.
(1:53 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:53 PM) Thusness: this is because of the state of equanimity, as every arising blossoms into lotus and therefore meditation is deemed irrelevant.
(1:53 PM) Thusness: so this is the state of non-meditation one should understand.
(1:54 PM) Thusness: there will come a clarity of this understanding of the entire workings and one's practice is 24/hrs in all moments because 'meeting conditions' and let arises are more important than anything.
(1:56 PM) Thusness: and one practices this in 'meeting conditions' with strong solid 'non-dual and emptiness' understanding as the base.
(1:57 PM) Thusness: This i would say can arise in middle level to high level of One-Taste
(1:58 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:59 PM) Thusness: I do not know about how they view non-meditation...
(1:59 PM) Thusness: is the highest level of non-meditation full enlightenment?
(1:59 PM) Thusness: equal Buddha achievement?
(2:00 PM) Thusness: If it is not, then what i said is already non-meditation.
(2:01 PM) Thusness: because merits is needed to become Buddha that sort of stage but in terms of insight, it is the same.
25 December 2007:
(11:54 AM) Thusness: if there is no universal consciousness, then what is the ultimate in buddhism?
(11:55 AM) AEN____: emptiness, dependent arising
(11:55 AM) Thusness: yes
(11:56 AM) Thusness: so what is buddhist teaching about consciousness?
(11:56 AM) AEN____: they're conditions?
(11:56 AM) Thusness: what do u mean by conditions?
(11:57 AM) Thusness: first u must understand AEN stream is AEN stream.
(11:57 AM) Thusness: Thusness stream is Thusness stream of consciousness
(11:57 AM) Thusness: consciousness is non-dual and empty
(11:58 AM) Thusness: and after understanding, to live as what we truly are.
(11:58 AM) Thusness: that is all.
(11:58 AM) AEN____: oic..
(11:59 AM) Thusness: all experiences are non-dual and empty
(11:59 AM) Thusness: this stream of Thusness consciousness is not AEN stream of consciousness
(11:59 AM) AEN____: oic
(12:00 PM) Thusness: and the purpose of practice is to live as what we originally are.
(12:00 PM) Thusness: pure luminosity
(12:00 PM) Thusness: and know that our nature is empty.
(12:00 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:00 PM) Thusness: therefore the entire experience is oriented into DO (Dependent Origination).
(12:00 PM) Thusness: there is no universal consciousness
(12:01 PM) AEN____: oic.. yea
(12:01 PM) Thusness: the ultimate understanding is to know what consciousness is and know manifestion is what DO has expressed.
(12:02 PM) Thusness: to correctly see consciousness as it is.
(12:02 PM) Thusness: nothing else.
(12:02 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:02 PM) Thusness: to experience clarity of our luminosity and its emptiness nature.
(12:02 PM) Thusness: the problem is we don't
(12:02 PM) Thusness: we continue to speculate even after the glimpse
(12:02 PM) Thusness: that is propensity
(12:03 PM) Thusness: we don't tune ourselves into actual practice
(12:04 PM) Thusness: into experiencing the fullest clarity of our luminous and empty nature.
(12:04 PM) Thusness: we do live as pure awareness
(12:04 PM) Thusness: don't
(12:04 PM) Thusness: that is the problem.
(12:04 PM) Thusness: we continue to engage in arbitrary thoughts because of propensities.
(12:04 PM) Thusness: we give importance, meanings
(12:05 PM) Thusness: when u hear sound free of symbols, is it important?
(12:05 PM) AEN____: the experience is impt not the meaning
(12:06 PM) AEN____: ya its not impt
(12:06 PM) Thusness: have i told u that chanting is important in the chant, not the meaning?
(12:07 PM) AEN____: yea u told me
(12:07 PM) Thusness: why so?
(12:08 PM) AEN____: cos the mind can never grasp the experience?
(12:09 PM) Thusness: and what does that mean?
(12:09 PM) AEN____: tat means the mind can never 'understand' or 'know'
(12:10 PM) Thusness: knowing has not taken its proper place.
(12:10 PM) Thusness: first u must know what is the conventional mind about.
(12:10 PM) Thusness: it is about views and meanings are derived from these views.
(12:10 PM) Thusness: it is about constructs.
(12:11 PM) Thusness: the conventional mind is full of meanings and purposes.
(12:11 PM) Thusness: that is what it is about.
(12:11 PM) Thusness: therefore the mind cannot understand because understanding is not the way.
(12:12 PM) Thusness: but to such dualistic mind, it immediately concludes that if there is no 'knowing' then we become a dumb dumb...a rock..
(12:12 PM) AEN____: lol
(12:13 PM) Thusness: because our mind is full of abitrary thoughts and views, it is loaded with meanings and purposes.
(12:13 PM) Thusness: when bare attention is taught, the mind cannot 'see'.
(12:14 PM) Thusness: because it has no meaning, purpose, views, constructs whatsoever.
(12:14 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:14 PM) Thusness: the essence cannot be intuitively grasped.
(12:14 PM) Thusness: however when the mind settles and is calm
(12:15 PM) Thusness: it is not looking for meaning
(12:15 PM) Thusness: is a person sitting still meaningful?
(12:15 PM) Thusness: is absorption meaningful?
(12:15 PM) Thusness: a practitioner when engaged in such activities experiences differently.
(12:15 PM) AEN____: no
(12:16 PM) Thusness: it touches the world of luminosity, presence and spontaneity.
(12:16 PM) AEN____: icic
(12:16 PM) Thusness: the unconditioned, the aliveness, spontaneity, oneness
(12:16 PM) Thusness: the Presence
(12:17 PM) AEN____: oic
(12:17 PM) Thusness: is not about meaning.
(12:17 PM) AEN____: ya..
(12:17 PM) Thusness: it is just that Presence that replaces all and the knowing is immediate and intuitive.
(12:18 PM) Thusness: it is to see and understand our nature and experience in all circumstances, Presence is always there.
(12:18 PM) Thusness: and know to be truly alive, presence must be experienced.
(12:19 PM) Thusness: u can say this is the direct knowing in contrast to the dualistic knowing of a conventional mind.
(12:20 PM) Thusness: so a practitioner's entire experience is oriented into experiencing its luminous empty nature and realises all as its manifestations.
(12:21 PM) Thusness: but saying all as its manifestation is not to say i am u.
(12:21 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:21 PM) Thusness: that is a dualistic subject and object view.
(12:22 PM) AEN____: oic
(12:23 PM) Thusness: u must know the advaita sort of experience when they say all is consciousness
(12:23 PM) Thusness: is different.
(12:23 PM) Thusness: they are talking about the sensor, the knower
(12:23 PM) Thusness: cannot be known and is ultimate
(12:23 PM) Thusness: from the known.
(12:24 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:24 PM) AEN____: then how is that 'all'
(12:24 PM) Thusness: but to a buddhist that is non dualist, the sensor is known through the known
(12:25 PM) Thusness: the sensed/known is the instrument for sensing the sensor
(12:25 PM) Thusness: the sensor is also the instrument for sensing the sensed
(12:26 PM) Thusness: both the sensor and the sensed are equally unknowable and known
(12:26 PM) AEN____: oic..
(12:26 PM) Thusness: both having one taste.
(12:26 PM) Thusness: inseparable.
(12:26 PM) AEN____: the 'sensor' is the citta rite
(12:27 PM) Thusness: yeah
(12:27 PM) Thusness: purity is not being free of anything
(12:27 PM) Thusness: is to know our empty nature that is ever manifesting
(12:27 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:28 PM) Thusness: citta is consciousness of the conceptual mind
(12:28 PM) Thusness: the knower
(12:28 PM) Thusness: the knower can only exist in analysis and thinking
(12:29 PM) Thusness: it does not exist in complete bare attention.
(12:29 PM) Thusness: an observer exists when we try to reconfirm an experience
(12:29 PM) Thusness: when we recall
(12:29 PM) Thusness: and arises as a result of comparision
(12:29 PM) AEN____: oic..
(12:29 PM) Thusness: seems to exist but does not.
(12:30 PM) Thusness: a manifestation that is non-dual in nature is not a stage
(12:30 PM) Thusness: it is not a stage that we eliminate our 'selfs'
(12:30 PM) Thusness: the observer
(12:30 PM) Thusness: it is to know that the 'observer' is an illusion.
(12:31 PM) Thusness: so that the DO and luminosity emptiness nature is seen.
(12:32 PM) Thusness: DO is the right perspective of non-dual experience for the conventional mind to 'see'.
(12:33 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:33 PM) Thusness: once this is seen, we must 'turn' and allow that 'dualistic propensity' to dissolve
(12:33 PM) Thusness: there are many ways but bare attention and naked awareness to me is best.
(12:34 PM) Thusness: once the nature is understood, the 6 paramitas is understood.
(12:35 PM) Thusness: we do not engage ourselves into useless speculation further knowing that it is propensities that blind.
(12:35 PM) Thusness: instead, we work at all levels to allow conditions to meet and allow propensities to manifest
(12:36 PM) Thusness: practice the parimatas in all circumstances to all conditions to mirror the latent deep and dissolve that sense of self.
(12:36 PM) Thusness: it is not to create useless construct and understand meanings
(12:37 PM) Thusness: but experience that luminous empty nature in all activities by dissolving the sense of self.
(12:38 PM) Thusness: so when one continues to make sense of after non-dual experience, he will confuse himself further.
(12:38 PM) Thusness: he has no clarity of the unconditioned, the unborn, the aliveness yet
(12:39 PM) Thusness: the 'bond' or the tendency to 'hold' will manifest when meeting conditions
(12:39 PM) Thusness: that is where the practice is.
(12:40 PM) Thusness: when such condition does not arise, one rest in naked awareness
(12:40 PM) Thusness: absorption in pure luminosity in every authentication.
(12:41 PM) Thusness: when hearing, just the sound.
(12:41 PM) Thusness: the sound is the rigpa so to speak.
(12:41 PM) Thusness: it is the depth of clarity of this experience.
(12:41 PM) Thusness: dzogchen called it contemplation
(12:41 PM) Thusness: i called it vipassanic
(12:42 PM) Thusness: bare and naked of a manifestation
(12:42 PM) Thusness: whatever we call it doesn't matter.
(12:42 PM) Thusness: it is to have this clarity of luminosity
(12:42 PM) Thusness: before split
(12:43 PM) Thusness: that is the practice.
(12:43 PM) Thusness: till one reaches permanent lucidity
(12:43 PM) Thusness: a non-dualist that has stabilized this experience does not have a subject-object split.
(12:44 PM) Thusness: he does not have a body, sensation, touching...etc mental construct
(12:44 PM) Thusness: if we want to say, his world view is luminosity of manifestion according to DO.
(12:44 PM) Thusness: that is his world view.
(12:45 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:45 PM) AEN____: wat u mean by "he does not have a body, sensation, touching...etc mental construct"
(12:45 PM) Thusness: he becomes a whole manifestion of luminosity-emptiness
(12:45 PM) Thusness: means he doesn't have an idea that a body, or hand, or sensation touches anything
(12:46 PM) Thusness: just like what i told u about the vibration of someone opening the door.
(12:46 PM) AEN____: oic..
(12:47 PM) Thusness: otherwise when u kept saying the universe eats an apple, what do u mean?
(12:47 PM) Thusness: :P
(12:47 PM) Thusness: just tok tok ah
(12:47 PM) Thusness: then how can u know what is chanting
(12:47 PM) Thusness: the world of maha
(12:48 PM) Thusness: there is only the sense of self that limits
(12:48 PM) Thusness: nothing else.
(12:48 PM) Thusness: when we doubt, it is only when we think and divide.
(12:48 PM) Thusness: not in the actual experience of practice.
(12:48 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:49 PM) AEN____: haha
(12:49 PM) Thusness: but u must understand it before u post anything. Don't just cut and paste.
(12:49 PM) AEN____: lol.. ok
(12:50 PM) Thusness: a person cannot orientate himself totally into DO because he still react to his habitual dualistic way of understanding things.
(12:51 PM) Thusness: he unknowingly continues to orientate himself his non-dual experience in a dualistic mode and gets confused.
(12:52 PM) Thusness: so one must put in real effort and practice diligently till 'turning point'
(12:53 PM) Thusness: that is all dualistic views are replaced with non-dual insight.
(12:53 PM) Thusness: this comes from being bare in attention.
(12:53 PM) AEN____: oic..
(12:53 PM) Thusness: dualistic way of apprehension can still continue after that.
(12:54 PM) Thusness: but it is understood as a tool to get ourselves around.
(12:54 PM) Thusness: no more than that.
(12:54 PM) Thusness: one is not confused.
(12:55 PM) AEN____: icic..
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