Showing posts with label Emptiness. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Emptiness. Show all posts

Recently shared the following article by Dalai Lama a few times again with others when discussion came up.

The Dalai Lama makes an important point here. Many people when they realize the Clarity aspect of Buddha Nature, they thought they understood emptiness. The space like aspect of Awareness or Clarity is not the same as realizing emptiness. Realizing emptiness got to do with seeing through the view and conception of inherent existence, as if self/Self, Awareness, phenomena, existed in and of itself independent of the constituents, manifestation, conditons, designation and so on.
For example the Anatta realization is the initial breakthrough of the notion of the inherentness of Awareness, or Self, as if Awareness inherently exist in and of itself besides or behind manifestation. In truth, in seeing just the seen, 'awareness' is just a label for the luminous seen, luminous heard, luminous sensed. There is no Consciousness or perceiver behind or besides these. 'Awareness' is none other than these manifestations, there is nothing unchanging, independently existing, in and of itself, even if such inherently existing awareness is seen as 'inseparable' from manifestation. Rather, it's just like 'wind' and 'blowing'. There is no wind besides blowing, likewise there is no awareness besides manifestation. Only when conventions are falsely reified into an agent-action structure does luminous manifestation become knower-knowing-known. To say Awareness is empty is not to say that it is like space, in this case it can still be a reified unchanging space like awareness inherently existing that is inseparable from everything. Rather, Awareness is empty of its own intrinsic existence besides the luminous and vivid appearance. That is just anatta.
In the case of the initial realization of Clarity, Awareness appears like space even at the Thusness Stage 1 -- I AM realization, but that is the relative aspect of consciousness being formless (I call it relative because Dalai Lama calls it the relative nature of mind which is the Clarity aspect, while the ultimate nature of mind is its emptiness, although when you are at the I AM phase it appears as Absolute -- https://www.lamayeshe.com/article/happiness-karma-and-mind). Then the formless becomes reified as if existing in and of itself being like space. Even if nondual is experienced, awareness becomes like the inseparability of a space like unchanging awareness from manifestation, or as if an unchanging awareness exist that is all-pervading, all-encompassing and inseparable from manifestation like some sort of unchanging mirror inseparable from reflections. This is substantialist nondualism, not yet anatta proper. All these do not go beyond Thusness Stage 4 -- http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../thusnesss-six... and http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../difference...
Even after anatta is realized, the seeing through of subject-action-object, like the wind-blowing, lightning-flashing applied to subject-action-object, Awareness-and-manifestation, knower-knowing-known, is to be further extended to be all phenomena, including characteristics and bearer of characteristics, and so on and so forth for twofold emptiness. Only with thorough deconstruction of subtle inherentness of conventions in all aspects into empty clarity can one taste the freedom from all elaborations, which is not merely the suspension of the coarse aspects of labelling but rather the uprooting of subtle views and traces of reification and inherentness. Without the insights that penetrate inherent existence thoroughly, insight into insubstantial nondual (not substantialist nondualism of stage 4), emptiness and dependent origination, it cannot be considered as a form of insight into emptiness.
HHDL:
Dzogchen and Mahāmudrā
According to Sūtra, meditation on the clear and cognizant nature of the mind or on the transforming buddha nature alone will not eradicate afflictions. However, it does lead us to have more confidence that afflictions are not an inherent part of the mind and therefore that becoming a buddha is possible. This, in turn, leads us to question: What defiles the mind and what can eliminate these defilements completely? Seeking the method to purify the transforming buddha nature, we will cultivate the wisdom realizing the emptiness of inherent existence and eradicate ignorance.
According to Dzogchen and Mahāmudrā, meditation on the clear and cognizant nature of the mind could lead the coarse winds to dissolve and the subtlest clear light mind to become manifest. When this happens, practitioners who have previously cultivated a correct understanding of emptiness then incorporate that understanding in their meditation and use the innate clear light mind to realize emptiness and abolish afflictions.
It is important to understand the Sublime Continuum correctly from a Dzogchen and Mahāmudrā point of view. Some people take it literally, leading them to incorrectly believe that primordial wisdom is permanent, inherently existent, independent of any other factors, and does not rely on causes and conditions. They then make statements such as, “If you unravel this secret, you will be liberated.”
Dodrup Jigme Tenpai Nyima (1865–1926) and his disciple Tsultrim Zangpo (1884–c.1957), who were great Dzogchen scholars and practitioners, said that the mere presence of this primordial wisdom within us alone cannot liberate us. Why not? At the time of death, all other minds have dissolved, and only the primordial mind remains. Even though it has manifested in all the infinite number of deaths we have experienced in saṃsāra, that has not helped us attain buddhahood. These two sages say that in order to attain buddhahood, it is necessary to utilize the primordial wisdom to realize emptiness; only that will liberate us. This is consistent with Tsongkhapa’s view.
Some commentaries on Dzogchen and Mahāmudrā say: This wisdom that abides in the afflictions is the true wisdom, and on this basis every sentient being is already a buddha. Although we have been buddhas from beginningless time, we have to be awakened again. The wisdom that we have now is the omniscient mind of a buddha, and the three bodies of a buddha exist innately in each sentient being. Sentient beings have a basis of essential purity that is not merely emptiness but is endowed with three aspects. Its entity is the dharmakāya — the mode of abiding of pristine wisdom; its nature is the enjoyment body — the appearance aspect of that mind; and compassion is the emanation bodies — its radiance or expression. In short, they say that all three buddha bodies are present, fully formed in our ordinary state, but since they are obscured we are not aware of their presence.
Such statements taken literally are fraught with problems. While some people are partial and unfair in their criticism and refute misconceptions in only some traditions, Changkya Rolpai Dorje (1717–86) was unbiased and pointed out incorrect interpretations in all four Tibetan traditions, including his own Geluk tradition. In his Song of the Experience of the View, he says, “I say this not out of disrespect to these masters, but perhaps they have had less exposure to rigorous philosophical investigation of the great treatises and were unable to use certain terminology appropriately.” That is, the difficulty in their assertions lies in a broad use of terminology that is not grounded in the authority of the great treatises. Of course, Changkya’s comments do not apply to Dzogchen and Mahāmudrā masters such as Dodrup Jigme Tenpai Nyima and his teacher Awa Pangchu, who have done serious philosophical study and examination of the great treatises and who ground their understanding of Dzogchen in them. Their interpretations and writings are excellent.
All four Tibetan traditions teach practices that search for the mind — where it came from, where it goes, what its shape and color are, and so forth. Speaking of this shared practice, Changkya said that after searching in this manner, we find that the mind is not tangible, lacks color and shape, and does not come from one place or go to another. Discovering this, meditators experience a sensation of voidness. However, this voidness is not the emptiness of inherent existence that is the ultimate reality of the mind; it is the mere absence of the mind being a tangible object. Although someone may think this voidness is ultimate reality and meditate in that state for a long time, this is not meditation on the ultimate nature of the mind. There are two ways to meditate on the mind. The first is as above, examining whether the mind has color, shape, location, tangibility, and so forth. This leads to the sense that the conventional nature of the mind lacks these qualities. The second is meditation on the ultimate nature of the mind, in which we examine the mind’s ultimate mode of existence and discover its emptiness of inherent existence. People who confuse these two ways of meditating on the mind and think that the mind’s absence of tangibility, color, and so forth is the mind’s ultimate nature may criticize masters such as Dignāga and Dharmakīrti for their precise expositions on debate, logic, and reasoning, saying these only increase preconceptions. Gungtang Konchog Tenpai Dronme (1762–1823), another master who was impartial in his critical analysis of Tibetan Buddhist traditions, said he found this amazing.
Some people believe there is no need for reasoning or investigation on the path, that simply by having faith and receiving the blessing of a guru primordial wisdom will arise. In this light, I have been very happy to see the establishment of more shedras — academic institutes — that teach the classical philosophical texts from India and Tibet.
Some Westerners similarly do not value Dharma study and investigation, perhaps because Buddhadharma is relatively new in the West. Without a comprehensive understanding of the Buddhadharma, people tend to seek the easiest and shortest path to awakening, a path that does not require giving up their attachments. Such an attitude exists among Tibetans as well. Tsongkhapa said that many people think that the Buddha’s qualities are wonderful, but when a spiritual mentor explains through reasoning and scriptural citations how to attain them, they become discouraged and say, “Who can actually achieve such realizations?”
Are We Already Buddhas?
In the Tathāgatagarbha Sūtra, the Buddha explained that each sentient being possesses a permanent, stable, stable, and enduring tathāgatagarbha that is a fully developed buddha body (kāya) replete with the thirty-two signs of a buddha. Questions arise: If an already realized buddha existed within us, wouldn’t we be ignorant buddhas? If we were actual buddhas now, what would be the purpose of practicing the path? If we were already buddhas and yet still needed to purify defilements, wouldn’t a buddha have defilements? If we had a permanent, stable, and enduring essence, wouldn’t that contradict the teachings on selflessness and instead resemble the self or soul asserted by non-Buddhists? Mahāmati expressed these same doubts to the Buddha in the Descent into Lanka Sūtra:
The tathāgatagarbha taught [by the Buddha in some sūtras] is said to be clear light in nature, completely pure from the beginning, and to exist possessing the thirty-two signs in the bodies of all sentient beings. If, like a precious gem wrapped in a dirty cloth, [the Buddha] expressed that [tathāgatagarbha] — wrapped in and dirtied by the cloth of the aggregates, constituents, and sources; overwhelmed by the force of attachment, animosity, and ignorance; dirtied with the defilements of conceptualizations; and permanent, stable, and enduring — how is this propounded as tathāgatagarbha different from the non-Buddhists propounding a self?88
Some Tibetan scholars accept the teaching on a permanent, stable, and enduring buddha nature literally, saying it is a definitive teaching. Sharing the doubts expressed above by Mahāmati, Prāsaṅgikas say this is an interpretable teaching. They say this, not on a whim, but by examining three points.
(1) What was the Buddha’s final intended meaning when he made this statement? When speaking of a permanent, stable, and enduring essence in each sentient being, the Buddha’s intended meaning was the emptiness of the mind, the naturally abiding buddha nature, which is permanent, stable, and enduring. Because the mind is empty of inherent existence and the defilements are adventitious, buddhahood is possible.
(2) What was the Buddha’s purpose for teaching this? The Buddha taught a permanent, stable, enduring essence complete with the thirty-two signs, in order to calm some people’s fear of selflessness and to gradually lead non-Buddhists to the full realization of suchness. At present, these people, who are spiritually immature, feel comfortable with the idea of a permanent essence. The idea of the emptiness of inherent existence frightens them; they mistakenly think it means that nothing whatsoever exists. They fear that by realizing emptiness, they will disappear and cease to exist. To calm this fear, the Buddha spoke in a way that corresponds with their current ideas. Later, when they are more receptive, he will teach them the actual meaning. This is similar to the way skillful parents simplify complex ideas to make them comprehensible to young children.
(3) What logical inconsistencies arise from taking this statement literally? Accepting this teaching on a permanent, stable, and enduring buddha nature at face value contradicts the definitive meaning of emptiness and selflessness explained by the Buddha in the Perfection of Wisdom sūtras. In those sūtras, the Buddha set forth many reasonings that refute this view. Furthermore, if this statement were accepted literally, the Buddha’s teachings would be no different from those of non-Buddhists who assert a permanent self.
The emptiness of inherent existence — which is the ultimate reality and the natural purity of the mind — exists in all sentient beings without distinction. Based on this, it is said that a buddha is present. But the ultimate reality of a buddha does not exist in sentient beings. While buddhas and sentient beings are the same in that the ultimate nature of their minds is emptiness, that ultimate reality is not the same because one is the ultimate reality of a buddha’s mind — the nature dharmakāya — and the other is the ultimate reality of a defiled mind. If we said that the nature dharmakāya existed in sentient beings, we would have to also say that the wisdom dharmakāya, which is one nature with it, existed in sentient beings. That would mean that sentient beings were omniscient, which certainly is not the case! Similarly, if the abandonment of all defilements existed in ordinary sentient beings, there would be nothing to prevent them from directly perceiving the natural purity of their minds. They would directly realize emptiness. This, too, is not the case.
Some people say the dharmakāya with the two purities — the natural purity and the purity of the abandonment of all defilements — exists in the mindstreams of sentient beings, but because sentient beings are obscured, they don’t perceive it. If that were the case, then whose mind is purified and who attains the freedom that is the purity of all defilements? If sentient beings already possess the dharmakāya, there is no need for them to practice the path and purify their minds, because from beginningless time their minds have been free of adventitious defilements.
The assertion that a buddha complete with the thirty-two signs exists within the continuums of all sentient beings echoes the theistic theory of an eternally pure, unchanging self. If the thirty-two signs were already present in us, it would be contradictory to say that we still need to practice the path to create the causes for them. If someone says that they are already in us in an unmanifest form and they just need to be made manifest, that resembles the Sāṃkhya notion of arising from self, because even though existing, this buddha would need to be produced again in order to be made manifest. Nāgārjuna and his followers soundly refuted production from self.
The sūtra continues with the Buddha’s response:
Mahāmati, my teaching of the tathāgatagarbha is not similar to the propounding of a self by non-Buddhists. Mahāmati, the tathāgatas, arhats, the perfectly completed buddhas indicated the tathāgatagarbha with the meaning of the words emptiness, limit of complete purity, nirvāṇa, unborn, signless, wishless, and so forth. [They do this] so that the immature might completely relinquish a state of fear regarding the selfless, [and to] teach the nonconceptual state, the sphere without appearance.89
Here we see that the Buddha skillfully taught different ideas to different people, according to what was necessary at the moment and beneficial in the long term to further them on the path. We also learn that we must think deeply about the teachings, exploring them from various viewpoints and bring knowledge gained from reasoning and from reading other scriptures to discern their definitive meaning. The purpose of learning about buddha nature is to understand that the mind is not intrinsically flawed and that, on the contrary, it can be perfected. It is not just that the mind can be transformed; there is already part of the mind that allows it to be purified and perfected. Understanding this gives us great confidence and energy to practice the methods to purify and perfect this mind of ours so that it will become the mind of a fully awakened buddha.
REFLECTION
What does it mean to say that pristine wisdom abides in the afflictions?
Are we already wise buddhas but just don’t know it?
Do buddhas have afflictions?
The Buddha said there is a permanent, stable, and enduring buddha nature in each of us. What was his final intended meaning in saying this? What was his purpose for teaching this?
What logical inconsistencies arise from taking this statement literally?
Lama, Dalai; Chodron, Thubten. Samsara, Nirvana, and Buddha Nature (The Library of Wisdom and Compassion Book 3) (p. 372). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.
Labels: Buddha Nature, Emptiness, His Holiness the Dalai Lama 0 comments | |

Soh Wei Yu
noSerdotspu25g e:hl790a8h61fti40ys8a3h 9euf5 69trMdt1cA311Ya  · Shared with Your friends
This is an important point and clarification by kyle dixon. Emptiness is not about 1) things having parts, 2) things being impermanent, and 3) things being interdependent.
 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/10xvvuy/emptiness_demystified/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

 
Krodha:
"The toy is made up of many small parts, and the parts are made up of even smaller parts. When you look close enough, you can't find anything that is truly solid or permanent."
Not to detract from the theme of this post, demystification, but traditionally, emptiness does not mean that objects are made of smaller parts. Candrakīrti refutes this idea in his Sevenfold Reasoning of the Chariot:
(i) There is no chariot which is other than its parts
(ii) There is no chariot which is the same as its parts
(iii) There is no chariot which possesses its parts
(iv) There is no chariot which depends on its parts
(v) There is no chariot upon which the parts depend
(vi) There is no chariot which is the collection of its parts
(vii) There is no chariot which is the shape of its parts
The point is to refute the object to begin with. The chariot or any other object is ultimately a misconception which has no parts, this is why a synonym for emptiness is an absence of characteristics.
….
Right but possessing characteristics (parts and pieces), being impermanent and interdependence are actually the antithesis of emptiness.
These are often referred to as doorways to emptiness, but they do not even conceptually capture the actual meaning of emptiness. Which is an absence of characteristics (which refutes parts and pieces), a negation of arising (which refutes impermanence) and a negation of svabhāva or an essence (which negates interdependence).
Further, interdependence [parabhāva] and dependent origination [pratītyasamutpāda] are not the same thing. Per Nāgārjuna, interdependence is just a guise for inherent existence [svabhāva] because it requires entities that depend upon one another.

 

Comments

Yin Ling
the Reddit ppl will be so confused lol.
No partless particle is still an important step ma

    Reply
    1d

Soh Wei Yu
Was reminded of this:
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../Nancy%20Neithercut
In the seen only the seen is also no seer, no seeing and nothing seen / No Movement
John Tan: If seen is just seen, then there is no movement.
Soh: Movement?
John Tan: In the seen only the seen is also no seer, no seeing and nothing seen. There is no changing nor unchanging.
Soh: Ic..
Soh: The nancy also said the same.. nothing changing or unchanging
[10:15 pm, 05/10/2021] John Tan: That is ultimate view.
[10:16 pm, 05/10/2021] John Tan: Conventionally, there is changes and impermanence and origination in dependence as the right way of expression.
Soh: https://nancyspoems.blogspot.com/
Nancy:
We are infinite reflections without a source
Echoes spinning
Fleeting images
Flowing thought dreams
Without sides or a middle
Dancing without movement or non movement
without direction or non direction
There are no colors or rainbows without us
Without an imaginary persona there is no imaginary heart
Beating
Loving all this
That is not this
Or that
Or both
Or neither
There is no one to be free or bound
Or gaze as infinite awe painting the dream scape with colors that cannot be seen
Only felt
No one to fall into your unutterable beauty
Or fall endlessly in love with you
….
At first this felt like, 'I am all this!"
Then it felt like, 'All this!'
Later it was .... 'Not even nothing...'
….
no eyes apart from the seeing....
no ears apart from the hearing
no sound separate from the listening...
no wind separate from your cheek
no love separate from your heart
no inside
no outside
the horizon that held the sky apart from the sea
untied itself
the timeline from birth to death collapsed
as well as the time walker
and left this knowing and feeling that there are no things
simply an atemporal seamless flow without movement or non movement....
no things to be permeant or changing ...
feels like the first and last kiss ....
a constant union of what was never apart...
Soh: Sounds like she went through the stages
John Tan: 👍
Awakening to Reality
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Awakening to Reality
Awakening to Reality

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    Remove Preview
    1d

Soh Wei Yu
“The next understanding you must have after anatta and emptiness is to know that all qualities similar to those that are described and sounded ontological are always manifesting presently, spontaneously and effortlessly after the purification of anatta and emptiness insights. That is, spontaneous arising is not just saying responding automatically. It is the manifestation of these blissful characteristics of nature spontaneously. Non-arising, unmoving, unchanging, pristiness, clarity... spontaneously present” – John Tan, 2009
“Mr. T: I cannot find a ground a base, to identify with, everything is changing constantly. Arising and passing away. All of experience, where do I stand?
Kyle Dixon: Arising and passing away are characteristics of conditioned phenomena. As practitioners of the buddhadharma, our aim is to fully realize the unconditioned nature of phenomena, free of arising and cessation. That natural and perfect nature, is the true refuge.
Upon realizing that nature, the Buddha stated the following:
I have obtained the ambrosia of Dharma,  profound, peaceful, immaculate, luminous and unconditioned.  Even though I explain it, no one will understand,  I think I will remain in the forest without speaking.  Free from words, untrained by speech,  suchness, the nature of Dharma, is like space  free from the movements of mind and intellect,  supreme, amazing, the sublime knowledge.  Always like space,  nonconceptual, luminous,  the teaching without periphery or center  is expressed in this Dharmawheel.  Free from existence and nonexistence,  beyond self and nonself,  the teaching of natural nonarising  is expressed in this Dharmawheel.
— The Ārya-lalitavistara-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra” – Kyle Dixon, 2021
"This is correct. "Permanent" is not referring to something not undergoing change, it refers to the absence of causing of arising." - John Tan, 2021
"To conclude, in the expanse of phenomena, there is no dual nature of appearance and emptiness, and no twofold division. Therefore, by a mere expression of language—through words—it is also said that the relative truth and ultimate truth are “indivisible.” Although the expanse is like this, separate categories are made merely in terms of the conventional, based on the way things appear. In this way, all phenomena included within samsara—all that is comprised by distorted perceptions and all that appears through the power of dualistic thought—are not real when analyzed. They are fluctuating and impermanent; therefore, these deceptive phenomena are the relative truth. And all phenomena comprised by great nirvana—which is difficult to realize and thus profound, free from constructs, and which is the luminous clarity of wisdom’s knowing, relinquished from all suffering—are beyond material and momentary phenomena. Therefore, they are free from the misery of change. Having the nature of immutability, they are the ultimate truth."
- Mipham
Duckworth, Douglas; Mipam, Jamgon. Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings (p. 159). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.
Labels: Anatta, Emptiness, Movement, Nancy Neithercut 0 comments | |

    Reply
    1d

John Tan
That will be jumping too fast. If there is no bearer of characteristic and no characteristic without characterization, what is that vivid happening? So what is dependent arising?

        Reply
        1dEdited



 

    This is an important point and clarification by kyle dixon. Emptiness is not about 1) things having parts, 2) things being impermanent, and 3) things being interdependent.
    Krodha:
    "The toy is made up of many small parts, and the parts are made up of even smaller parts. When you look close enough, you can't find anything that is truly solid or permanent."
    Not to detract from the theme of this post, demystification, but traditionally, emptiness does not mean that objects are made of smaller parts. Candrakīrti refutes this idea in his Sevenfold Reasoning of the Chariot:
    (i) There is no chariot which is other than its parts
    (ii) There is no chariot which is the same as its parts
    (iii) There is no chariot which possesses its parts
    (iv) There is no chariot which depends on its parts
    (v) There is no chariot upon which the parts depend
    (vi) There is no chariot which is the collection of its parts
    (vii) There is no chariot which is the shape of its parts
    The point is to refute the object to begin with. The chariot or any other object is ultimately a misconception which has no parts, this is why a synonym for emptiness is an absence of characteristics.
    ….
    Right but possessing characteristics (parts and pieces), being impermanent and interdependence are actually the antithesis of emptiness.
    These are often referred to as doorways to emptiness, but they do not even conceptually capture the actual meaning of emptiness. Which is an absence of characteristics (which refutes parts and pieces), a negation of arising (which refutes impermanence) and a negation of svabhāva or an essence (which negates interdependence).
    Further, interdependence [parabhāva] and dependent origination [pratītyasamutpāda] are not the same thing. Per Nāgārjuna, interdependence is just a guise for inherent existence [svabhāva] because it requires entities that depend upon one another.
    r/Buddhism - Emptiness demystified
    reddit.com
    r/Buddhism - Emptiness demystified
    4 votes and 20 comments so far on Reddit

    Comments


    Yin Ling
    the Reddit ppl will be so confused lol.
    No partless particle is still an important step ma


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Was reminded of this:
    In the seen only the seen is also no seer, no seeing and nothing seen / No Movement
    John Tan: If seen is just seen, then there is no movement.
    Soh: Movement?
    John Tan: In the seen only the seen is also no seer, no seeing and nothing seen. There is no changing nor unchanging.
    Soh: Ic..
    Soh: The nancy also said the same.. nothing changing or unchanging
    [10:15 pm, 05/10/2021] John Tan: That is ultimate view.
    [10:16 pm, 05/10/2021] John Tan: Conventionally, there is changes and impermanence and origination in dependence as the right way of expression.
    We are infinite reflections without a source
    Echoes spinning
    Fleeting images
    Flowing thought dreams
    Without sides or a middle
    Dancing without movement or non movement
    without direction or non direction
    There are no colors or rainbows without us
    Without an imaginary persona there is no imaginary heart
    Beating
    Loving all this
    That is not this
    Or that
    Or both
    Or neither
    There is no one to be free or bound
    Or gaze as infinite awe painting the dream scape with colors that cannot be seen
    Only felt
    No one to fall into your unutterable beauty
    Or fall endlessly in love with you
    ….
    At first this felt like, 'I am all this!"
    Then it felt like, 'All this!'
    Later it was .... 'Not even nothing...'
    ….
    no eyes apart from the seeing....
    no ears apart from the hearing
    no sound separate from the listening...
    no wind separate from your cheek
    no love separate from your heart
    no inside
    no outside
    the horizon that held the sky apart from the sea
    untied itself
    the timeline from birth to death collapsed
    as well as the time walker
    and left this knowing and feeling that there are no things
    simply an atemporal seamless flow without movement or non movement....
    no things to be permeant or changing ...
    feels like the first and last kiss ....
    a constant union of what was never apart...
    Soh: Sounds like she went through the stages
    John Tan: 👍
    Awakening to Reality
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Awakening to Reality
    Awakening to Reality

    • Reply
    • Remove Preview
    • 11m

  • Soh Wei Yu
    “The next understanding you must have after anatta and emptiness is to know that all qualities similar to those that are described and sounded ontological are always manifesting presently, spontaneously and effortlessly after the purification of anatta and emptiness insights. That is, spontaneous arising is not just saying responding automatically. It is the manifestation of these blissful characteristics of nature spontaneously. Non-arising, unmoving, unchanging, pristiness, clarity... spontaneously present” – John Tan, 2009
    “Mr. T: I cannot find a ground a base, to identify with, everything is changing constantly. Arising and passing away. All of experience, where do I stand?
    Kyle Dixon: Arising and passing away are characteristics of conditioned phenomena. As practitioners of the buddhadharma, our aim is to fully realize the unconditioned nature of phenomena, free of arising and cessation. That natural and perfect nature, is the true refuge.
    Upon realizing that nature, the Buddha stated the following:
    I have obtained the ambrosia of Dharma,� profound, peaceful, immaculate, luminous and unconditioned. �Even though I explain it, no one will understand, �I think I will remain in the forest without speaking. �Free from words, untrained by speech,� suchness, the nature of Dharma, is like space� free from the movements of mind and intellect, �supreme, amazing, the sublime knowledge. �Always like space, �nonconceptual, luminous, �the teaching without periphery or center �is expressed in this Dharmawheel. �Free from existence and nonexistence,� beyond self and nonself, �the teaching of natural nonarising �is expressed in this Dharmawheel.
    — The Ārya-lalitavistara-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra” – Kyle Dixon, 2021
    "This is correct. "Permanent" is not referring to something not undergoing change, it refers to the absence of causing of arising." - John Tan, 2021
    "To conclude, in the expanse of phenomena, there is no dual nature of appearance and emptiness, and no twofold division. Therefore, by a mere expression of language—through words—it is also said that the relative truth and ultimate truth are “indivisible.” Although the expanse is like this, separate categories are made merely in terms of the conventional, based on the way things appear. In this way, all phenomena included within samsara—all that is comprised by distorted perceptions and all that appears through the power of dualistic thought—are not real when analyzed. They are fluctuating and impermanent; therefore, these deceptive phenomena are the relative truth. And all phenomena comprised by great nirvana—which is difficult to realize and thus profound, free from constructs, and which is the luminous clarity of wisdom’s knowing, relinquished from all suffering—are beyond material and momentary phenomena. Therefore, they are free from the misery of change. Having the nature of immutability, they are the ultimate truth."
    - Mipham
    Duckworth, Douglas; Mipam, Jamgon. Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings (p. 159). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.
    Labels: Anatta, Emptiness, Movement, Nancy Neithercut 0 comments | |

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Trained the AI a bit. Now it knows dependent existence is not right view
    May be an image of text that says '1:53 chat.openai.com Effort Required for Enlightenment Does nagarjuna accept dependent existence as the right view of emptiness? existence still Nagarjuna does not accept dependent the correct view of emptiness. According to his philosophy, dependent existence form of dualistic thinking, which clings the idea of self-nature or inherent existence. Nagarjuna teaches that ultimate reality beyond dependent existence and inherent existence, and can only be understood through the concept of emptiness or sunyată. In his famous work "Mülamadhyamakakärikă", Nagarjuna critiques the notion of dependent existence as show that all things are ultimately empty of inherent existence. way to morenatura improve. Yufeedkwill'


    Tan Jui Horng
    Soh Wei Yu How to train ChatGPT?


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Tan Jui Horng feed with better information and challenge it and ask it questions to see whether it understood lol


  • Anurag Jain
    Good that you corrected dependent existence as the final view on emptiness.
    But you still did not explain what is the emptiness. For that you have to explain the tetralemma.

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    Soh Wei Yu
    Yes dependent existence is quite clearly refuted by Nagarjuna.
    John tan said before:
    This comment by Malcolm is really good.👍
    Session Start: Wednesday, August 09, 2006
    (11:32 PM) AEN: namdrol:
    While it is true that many non-Buddhist paths a reunciate and so on, the unique feature of the Buddha's path is understanding that phenomena are dependently originated. Dependent origination is critical in developing a correct view.
    Is the mere knowledge that phenomena dependently originated sufficient? No.
    It is possible to hold a view of dependent origination which is nevertheless realist or substantialist in nature-- a perfect example of this would the way Thich Nhat Hahn's "interbeing" is generally understood. Here, it is never questioned that the mutually depedendent phenomena exist in dependence because they all exist together. In general, this is also the naive understanding of dependent origination.
    (11:32 PM) AEN: Even so, this view of dependent orgination already marks the beginning of turning from a wrong or incorrect view, to a right or correct view.
    How do we move from a substantialist interpretation of dependent origination to a non-substantialist understanding?
    We need to first be open to having our existential assumptions undermined. Any clinging to existence and non-existence must be eradicated before we can properly appreciate the meaning of DO. Some people think this simply means clinging to inherent or ultimate existence. But this is not so. Whatever arises in dependence also must be devoid of mere existence as well.
    To understand this fully we must understand the perfection of wisdom sutras in their entirety and the thinking of Nagarjuna and his followers.
    (11:32 PM) AEN:
    When we have truly understood that phenomena are devoid existence and non-existence because they are dependently originated; we can understand that phenomena do not arise, since existence and dependence are mutually exclusive. Any existence that can be pointed to is merely putative and nominal, and does not bear any reasoned investigation.
    Since phenomena are dependently originated, and the consquence of dependent origination is that there are no existing existents, we can understand that existents are non-arising by nature. As Buddhapalita states "We do not claim non-existence, we merely remove claims for existing existents."
    Whatever does not arise by nature is free from existence and non-existence, and that is the meaning of "freedom from proliferation." In this way, dependent origination = emptiness, and this is the correct view that Buddhas elucidate. There is no other correct view than this.
    N


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Kyle Dixon:
    Existence [bhāva] and dependent origination [pratītyasamutpāda] are mutually exclusive. For something to actually "exist" it must do so independently of causes and conditions, but as luminaries such as Nāgārjuna point out, that is impossible.
    Many people conflate dependent existence [parabhāva], which is something existing with assistance from another, with dependent origination [pratītyasamutpāda]. The two are radically different principles. Regarding Nāgārjuna's classification of "existence" [bhāva], he asserts rather damningly:
    “Whoever has a view of inherent existence [svabhāva], dependent existence [parabhāva], existence [bhāva] and non-existence [abhāva] do not see the truth of the Buddha's teaching.”
    Yet Nāgārjuna was one of the most major proponents of clarifying the inner workings of dependent origination [pratītyasamutpāda], and states that there can be no existence established independently of inherent existence or dependent existence in the following inquiry:
    “Where is there an existent not included in inherent existence and dependent existence? If inherent existence and dependent existence are established, existence will be established.”
    This means that dependent existence [parabhāva] is actually a guise for inherent existence [svabhāva], and therefore is in direct contradiction to dependent origination [pratītyasamutpāda]. Further, since we cannot extract any form of existence [bhāva] as separate from dependent existence [parabhāva] or inherent existence [svabhāva], existence in any form is contradictory to dependent origination [pratītyasamutpāda].
    Buddhapālita comments on Nāgārjuna's damning assertion above:
    “Someone like that, who [has a] view of inherent existence, dependent existence, existence or non-existence does not see the truth in the profound and supreme teaching of the Buddha. Because we, in the correct way, see the nonexistence of the inherent existence of things which appear because of the sun of dependent origination arose, because of that, because we see the truth, liberation can be accepted only for us.”
    Nāgārjuna is stating that all views of existence contradict dependent origination.
    In order for something to exist, it must be independently originated, and conversely, for something to be independently originated it would have to be unconditioned, independent and uncaused, but as mentioned above, this is considered an impossibility in the eyes of the buddhadharma. The correct conventional view for emptiness is dependent origination, and so we see that in order to have objects, persons, places, things and so on, they must be possessed of causes and conditions. Meaning they cannot be found apart from those causes and conditions. If the conditions are removed, the object cannot remain.
    Regarding this, Nāgārjuna states the following:
    “That which comes into being from a cause, and does not endure without conditions, it disappears as well when conditions are absent - how can this be understood to exist?”
    Going on to say:
    “Since it comes to and end when ignorance ceases; why does it not become clear then that it was conjured by ignorance?”
    And so here we get to the actual meaning, and the heart of dependent origination, which is nonarising [anutpāda]. For an object to inherently exist it must exist outright, independent of causes and conditions, independent of attributes, characteristics and constituent parts. However, we cannot find an inherent object independent of these factors, and the implications of this fact is that we likewise cannot find an inherent object within those factors either.
    The object itself, as the core entity which possesses characteristics, is ultimately unfindable. We instead only find a designated collection of pieces, which do not in fact create any discrete object. In the absence of an object the pieces are likewise rendered as incapable of being "pieces" or "parts" and therefore they are also nothing more than arbitrary designations that amount to nothing more than inferences.
    This means that all entities, selves, and so on are merely useful conventional designations, their provisional validity is only measured by their efficacy, and apart from that conventional imputation, there is no underlying object that can be ascertained or found.
    Dependent origination is the apparent origination of entities that seem to manifest in dependence on causes and conditions. But as Nāgārjuna states above, those causes and conditions are actually the ignorance which afflicts the mindstream, and the conditions of grasping, mine-making and I-making which are the drivers of karmic activity that serve to reify the delusion of a self, or a self in objects, and so on.
    This is why many adepts are explicitly clear that dependent origination is synonymous with a lack of origination [anutpāda], because phenomena that originate in dependence on ignorance as a cause, never actually originate at all, for example, Candrakīrti states:
    “The perfectly awakened buddhas proclaimed, "What is dependently originated is non-arisen.”
    Or Mañjuśrī:
    “Whatever is dependently originated does not truly arise.”
    Nāgārjuna once again:
    “What originates dependently is non-arisen!”
    Thus dependent origination is incapable of producing existence of any sort, because dependent origination is incapable of producing entities. Entities and existence only appear because of the ignorance which afflicts your mind. When that ignorance is removed, all perceptions of existence are removed, all perceptions of selves are removed and all perceptions of origination are removed.


  • Anurag Jain
    Soh Wei Yu lol. Lot of words. Still does not explain what is emptiness...


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Anurag Jain it is explained above


  • Anurag Jain
    Soh Wei Yu ok. But not as clear as the tetralemma.


  • Stian Gudmundsen Høiland
    > In the Lankavatara Sutra, the Buddha teaches: "All things are empty of self-nature. They are not produced from themselves, nor are they produced from other things, nor are they produced by both. They have no producer." (Lankavatara Sutra, Chapter 3)
    Nice!
    > The Lankavatara Sutra states: "By knowing that all things are empty, one can remove all clinging and attain final Nirvana." (Lankavatara Sutra, Chapter 4)
    Nice!

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