[8/5/23, 12:36:45 AM] Awakening to Reality Blog : ‎Messages and calls are end-to-end encrypted. No one outside of this chat, not even WhatsApp, can read or listen to them.

[8/5/23, 12:36:45 AM] Awakening to Reality Blog : ‎You created group “Awakening to Reality Blog ”

[8/5/23, 12:36:48 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Hi

[8/5/23, 12:38:13 AM] Yin Ling: Got it! Hi both haha

[8/5/23, 12:38:17 AM] Yin Ling: Thanks

[8/5/23, 12:38:36 AM] Yin Ling: First thing I’m going to do is to delete all the all posts of mine u saved 😂

[8/5/23, 12:38:44 AM] Soh Wei Yu: 🤣🤣🤣

[8/5/23, 12:38:48 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Pls dont hahahah

[8/5/23, 12:39:05 AM] Yin Ling: Long time I want to do that already

[8/5/23, 12:39:07 AM] Yin Ling: Lol

[8/5/23, 12:39:12 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Lol

[8/5/23, 8:33:57 AM] John Tan: I was telling soh to shift those conversations including fb comments into other places.  The current ATR blog is like a dumping ground.🤦

[8/5/23, 12:40:44 PM] Yin Ling: It’s a huge blog haha. But the link of the right should help direct others I guess . 

But my older posts are confusing.😅those need to go lol

[8/5/23, 12:41:13 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Replace with your newer posts then 😂

[8/5/23, 12:42:28 PM] Yin Ling: Lol noooo

[8/5/23, 12:42:41 PM] Yin Ling: Most of what ppl needs to read for guidance have been written

[8/5/23, 12:42:48 PM] Yin Ling: I think they just didn’t go and read it lol

‎[8/5/23, 7:07:07 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎<attached: 00000018-PHOTO-2023-05-08-19-07-07.jpg>

[8/5/23, 7:15:51 PM] Yin Ling: Hahaha yeah I sign in using another acc. Is that ok?

[8/5/23, 7:16:13 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah no problem just wanted to check

[8/5/23, 7:16:17 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Later kena hacked lol

[8/5/23, 7:16:31 PM] Yin Ling: Haha 👌

[8/5/23, 8:25:30 PM] John Tan: Jessie?

[8/5/23, 8:25:39 PM] John Tan: Ahha🤦‍♂️

[8/5/23, 8:37:02 PM] Yin Ling: 🤣 my email was created when I was 12 😂 after watching a cowboy show 🤦🏻‍♀️

‎[8/5/23, 8:39:27 PM] Yin Ling: ‎

[8/5/23, 8:40:28 PM] Yin Ling: It’s from a monk I don’t personally know but got added on in fb and then I got emailed 😂amituofo

[8/5/23, 9:46:38 PM] Soh Wei Yu: For these kind of people i just paste them my standard template:

Hi

Thought this might interest you, on nondual awareness and its nature and the subtleties of insight:

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/mistaken-reality-of-amness.html

[8/5/23, 9:46:41 PM] Soh Wei Yu: 🤣

‎[8/5/23, 9:47:23 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎<attached: 00000030-PHOTO-2023-05-08-21-47-23.jpg>

[8/5/23, 10:45:50 PM] Yin Ling: I tried reply once already, but cannot pass through. I think I will stop. Haha. Abit hard for me to talk to monks as Though I know better , just a weird situation

[8/5/23, 10:46:20 PM] Yin Ling: My god so many 😶‍🌫️

[8/5/23, 11:08:15 PM] John Tan: Yin Ling, the shengtong vs rangtong u pasted is from which book?

‎[8/5/23, 11:32:46 PM] Yin Ling: ‎

‎[8/5/23, 11:33:05 PM] Yin Ling: 

[8/5/23, 11:33:25 PM] Yin Ling: I don’t get it 😅

[8/5/23, 11:49:28 PM] John Tan: Lol no wonder

[8/5/23, 11:52:00 PM] John Tan: Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche is Nyingma and champions the shengtong view.  I think Malcolm ever confronted him and said that habouring that sort of view is no different from advaita view.

[8/5/23, 11:52:56 PM] John Tan: Wei yu may have the text since he compiles Malcolm answers and comments

[8/5/23, 11:54:50 PM] Yin Ling: Oooo I see

[8/5/23, 11:56:14 PM] Yin Ling: But describing shentong as “aware and empty” . I find that makes sense no?

[8/5/23, 11:56:32 PM] Yin Ling: But rangtong makes sense too . All makes sense 😅😅😅

[8/5/23, 11:57:39 PM] John Tan: However it is not exactly wrong to emphasize clarity/awareness when one somehow missed the "clarity" aspect when negating inherent ness of refried mental constructs.  In order words, negation involves 2 authentications of critical insights: one is in clear seeing of how refried constructs is mistaken as real,

And 2, the direct recognition that appearances are one's empty clarity.

[8/5/23, 11:58:58 PM] Yin Ling: Yes Rangtong emphasise the former. And sheng tong emphasise the latter. 

But what I don’t understand is how do their experiential insight differs?

[8/5/23, 11:59:22 PM] Yin Ling: Can you have one without the other ? 😅 I can’t imagine

[8/5/23, 11:59:39 PM] John Tan: It is not their experiential insights differ, it is how it unfolds.

[9/5/23, 12:01:33 AM] John Tan: The two can be treated as separate which resulted in 外道 view.  Means direct taste of clarity yet without realizing it's empty nature.  This resulted in self-view.

[9/5/23, 12:03:37 AM] Yin Ling: I see.

[9/5/23, 12:04:11 AM] John Tan: For example, one can have very powerful experiences and authentication of clarity as "I-I" in phase one as in my case or sim's case but still not realized that sound, sensations, thoughts...etc (appearances) as one's radiance claritym

[9/5/23, 12:04:52 AM] John Tan: Then when we authenticate that later in anatta insight it becomes very clear.

[9/5/23, 12:05:46 AM] John Tan: For these practitioners, clarity/presence/awareness is nothing special at all and more often than not, it is missed understood.

[9/5/23, 12:09:13 AM] John Tan: Appearances are treated as external.  Even in the case of non-dual where it is clearly experienced, it is still treated that Self is special and something beyond.  Which is a mis-conception due to our inherent pattern of analysing things.

[9/5/23, 12:09:13 AM] Yin Ling: I see

[9/5/23, 12:11:31 AM] Yin Ling: So is this what Rangtong is trying to put forth?

[9/5/23, 12:13:46 AM] John Tan: These practitioners (shengtong) do not understand "self-aware" as "sounds hear itself" as u wrote or as how u understand satipathanna sutta.  They see "self-aware" as a special Awareness apart from luminous appearances.  Many can't get around that.

[9/5/23, 12:15:52 AM] John Tan: Rangtong is pointing out what u r saying.  Rangtong is not against appearances or union of appearances and emptiness.  Shengtong can be skewed towards pointing some super awareness which is advaita.

[9/5/23, 12:16:19 AM] Yin Ling: Oohh I see. Thanks. Understand now

[9/5/23, 12:16:41 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I skim through mountain doctrine on dolpopa texts before

[9/5/23, 12:16:50 AM] Soh Wei Yu: To me no different from advaita at all lol

[9/5/23, 12:16:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolpopa_Sherab_Gyaltsen#Teachings

‎[9/5/23, 12:16:59 AM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎

‎[9/5/23, 12:17:00 AM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎

‎[9/5/23, 12:17:01 AM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎

[9/5/23, 12:17:10 AM] Soh Wei Yu: But that is the founder of shentong

[9/5/23, 12:17:23 AM] Soh Wei Yu: The modern proponents of shentong, often are clear about anatta and empty clarity

[9/5/23, 12:17:58 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Even thrangu rinpoche taught the view of shentong but instead of the original “empty of everything else but not itself” he taught shentong as even ultimate is empty

[9/5/23, 12:18:12 AM] John Tan: However there r some rangtong practitioners that somehow does not get the clarity part but those are not the teaching of rangtong.

[9/5/23, 12:18:16 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Which imo seems to be different from the original dolpopa teaching but more aligned with anatta

[9/5/23, 12:18:43 AM] John Tan: Yes

[9/5/23, 12:19:38 AM] John Tan: It is simply tradition and sect biasedness to present rangtong as denying clarity.

[9/5/23, 12:19:44 AM] John Tan: 🤣🤦

[9/5/23, 12:20:32 AM] John Tan: Mipham also rejected shengtong.

[9/5/23, 12:21:13 AM] John Tan: Tibetan Buddhism has this problem of stereotyping and present one-sided view.🤣

[9/5/23, 12:21:37 AM] Yin Ling: Yeah to me this book seems to say Shengtong emphasise clarity whilst rangtong emphaisse emptiness of inherent existence (freedom from elaboration) but they know the other insight . 

So I was wondering why do their experiential insight differs and why do they keep arguing lol

[9/5/23, 12:21:47 AM] Yin Ling: Ya

[9/5/23, 12:22:06 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah.. i read even longchenpa anticipated and rejected shentong even if he lived before his times. He rejected the buddha nature is empty of everything else but its own existence kind of view

[9/5/23, 12:22:08 AM] Yin Ling: I see

[9/5/23, 12:24:32 AM] John Tan: In Buddha's time, there is no need to emphasize Presence and clarity.  It is the Orthodox view and taught in the vedas, upanishads, bagavatgita  throughout india.  This do not require the birth of Buddha to point out.

[9/5/23, 12:24:36 AM] Yin Ling: But it feels like an insult to shentong intelligence to say they don’t know Buddha nature is empty?

[9/5/23, 12:25:04 AM] Yin Ling: Yup

[9/5/23, 12:25:13 AM] Yin Ling: Hence he teaches no self

[9/5/23, 12:26:32 AM] Yin Ling: But now I see the point of all these arguments and debates in Tibetan Buddhism 😝

[9/5/23, 12:26:35 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Depends on who the shentong writer is.. some teachers like thrangu and many others are v clear.. still i find most buddhist teachers are also not clear today. Mostly awareness teachings

[9/5/23, 12:26:40 AM] John Tan: There maybe an overemphasis of emptiness without clarity that gave birth to yogacara teaching to bring out this clarity aspect.

[9/5/23, 12:27:49 AM] Yin Ling: Ya there is an opinion that yogscara needs to be combined with madhyamaka to produce insight in this book 🤣

‎[9/5/23, 12:27:55 AM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎

[9/5/23, 12:28:02 AM] Yin Ling: I forgot who said. Jamgon kongtrul I think

[9/5/23, 12:28:03 AM] Soh Wei Yu: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangtong_and_shentong

[9/5/23, 12:28:37 AM] Soh Wei Yu: This part.. which is the general understanding of shentong from the start shld be criticised.  But ppl like thrangu rinpoche doesnt see that way when explaining shentong

[9/5/23, 12:28:46 AM] John Tan: Shengtong and Rangtong are invention of tibetans inherited from the roots of madhyamaka and yogacara in India.

[9/5/23, 12:28:47 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Also it will fall under same criticism as this:

[9/5/23, 12:29:24 AM] Yin Ling: Ooohhhhh now I see

[9/5/23, 12:29:59 AM] Soh Wei Yu: “

Also, Mipham Rinpoche, one of the most influential masters of the Nyingma school wrote http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/09/madhyamaka-cittamatra-and-true-intent.html :

...Why, then, do the Mādhyamika masters refute the Cittamātra tenet system? Because self-styled proponents of the Cittamātra tenets, when speaking of mind-only, say that there are no external objects but that the mind exists substantially—like a rope that is devoid of snakeness, but not devoid of ropeness. Having failed to understand that such statements are asserted from the conventional point of view, they believe the nondual consciousness to be truly existent on the ultimate level. It is this tenet that the Mādhyamikas repudiate. But, they say, we do not refute the thinking of Ārya Asaṅga, who correctly realized the mind-only path taught by the Buddha...

...So, if this so-called “self-illuminating nondual consciousness” asserted by the Cittamātrins is understood to be a consciousness that is the ultimate of all dualistic consciousnesses, and it is merely that its subject and object are inexpressible, and if such a consciousness is understood to be truly existent and not intrinsically empty, then it is something that has to be refuted. If, on the other hand, that consciousness is understood to be unborn from the very beginning (i.e. empty), to be directly experienced by reflexive awareness, and to be self-illuminating gnosis without subject or object, it is something to be established. Both the Madhyamaka and Mantrayāna have to accept this...”

[9/5/23, 12:30:16 AM] John Tan: It is not easy to sort out all these and take some time to get use to it.

[9/5/23, 12:30:18 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Malcolm says rangtong is totally a strawman by shentong lol

[9/5/23, 12:30:26 AM] Soh Wei Yu: It doesnt actually exist

[9/5/23, 12:30:32 AM] John Tan: Ahahaha

[9/5/23, 12:31:22 AM] John Tan: This is good (Soh: pointing to the Mipham excerpt above)

[9/5/23, 12:31:46 AM] Soh Wei Yu: “Yes, realization of emptiness automatically entails having right view. 

Your next statement presumes that those debating gzhan stong and rang stong have realized emptiness.

Since rang stong is just a strawman set up by gzhan stong pas, there is really no debate between gzhan stong and rang stong since there is no rang stong Madhyamaka except in the imagination of those who call themselves "gzhan stong" Madhyamakas. 

N

Pure because purity has always been a nonexistence.

Sound Tantra, 3:12.5”

“I mean that there is no rang stong at all from a Madhyamaka perspective: Nāgārjuna states:

If there were something subtle not empty, there would be something subtle to be empty, 

as there is nothing not empty, where is there something to be empty?

I mean that there is no rang stong at all, apart from what the gzhan stong pas have fabricated. 

The gzhan stong controversy arose out of a need by Tibetans to reconcile the five treatises of Maitreya with Nāgārjuna's Collection of Reasoning based upon the erroneous historical idea that the five treatises were authored by the bodhisattva Maitreya rather than a human being (who incidentally was probably Asanga's teacher). 

In my opinion, the five treatises were a collection of texts meant to explicate the three main thrusts of Indian Mahāyāna sutras, Prajñāpāramita, Tathāgatagarbha, and Yogacāra. Four of the five are devoted to these three topics independently, with the Abhisamaya-alaṃkara devoted to Prajñāpāramita; Uttaratantra devoted to Tathāgatagarbha; and the two Vibhangas devoted to Yogacāra . The last, the Sutra-alaṃkara is an attempt to unify the thought of these three main trends in Mahāyāna into a single whole, from a Yogacara perspective. 

When these treatises arrived in Tibetan, at the same time, a text attributed tothe original Bhavaviveka, but probably by a later Bhavaviveka, translated under Atisha's encouragement, called Tarkajvala, presented the broad outline of what we know call today " the four tenet systems". 

In this text, the three own natures and so on were presented in a very specific way from a Madhyamaka perspective and labelled "cittamatra".

So, the gzhan stong controversy (with additional input from Vajrayāna exegesis based on a certain way of understand the three bodhisattva commentaries) is about reconciling Madhyamaka with Yogacara. 

Personally, I see no need to attempt to reconcile Madhyamaka and Yogacara. Madhyamaka is the pinnacle of sutra explication. But Tibetans did and still seem to need to do so, and they have passed on this need to their students. 

But from my perspective, one cannot go beyond freedom from extremes. 

N”

[9/5/23, 12:35:28 AM] Yin Ling: Ooooo

[9/5/23, 12:35:31 AM] Yin Ling: Thanks

By Mipham Rinpoche from the Beacon of Certainty (see John Tan's book recommendation of this book here http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/03/book-recommendations-beacon-of-certainty.html)

Mipham:

 Topic 5

5.1 Which of the two truths is more important?

5.2.1.1.1 Some claim the ultimate is most important.

"Deceptive reality is a deluded perception," they say,

Understanding it as something to be abandoned.

"Ultimate reality is not deluded, so that ultimate

Is the perfectly pure view," they say.

5.2.1.1.2.1.1 If deceptive reality were not erroneous, were indeed true,

Ultimate reality could not be emptiness, so

They are expressed differently in this way.

5.2.1.1.2.1.2 However, no ultimate can be established

Over and against the deceptive;

The two of them are method and methodical result.

Without depending on an entity for examination,

Its nonsubstantiality cannot be established—

Therefore both substance and nonsubstance

Are the same in being mere relativity.672

5.2.1.1.2.2.1 If that clinging to emptiness

Were to fully exclude appearance,

THE TRANSLATION OF THE BEACON OF CERTAINTY 215

It would mess up Nagarjuna's fine system.

5.2.1.1.2.2.2 If by cultivating the path by that seeing of emptiness,

One were only to realize the expanse of emptiness,

Then one would have to accept that the

Sublime equipoise on emptiness

Would be a cause for the destruction of substantial entities.

5.2.1.1.2.2.3 Therefore, though things are empty from the beginning,

Appearance and emptiness are not separate things;

Adhering to the statement "Only emptiness is important"

• Is an unskilled approach to the final meaning.

5.2.1.2.1.1 Some people put aside the ultimate

And from the perspective of mere conventionality,

Differentiate the levels of the view in the tantric classes.

5.2.1.2.1.2.1 Viewing oneself as a deity conventionally

: Without complementing the view with the ultimate reality

of emptiness

And thus differentiating "higher" and "lower" teachings,

is incorrect.673

5.2.1.2.1.2.2 Without having confidence in ultimate reality,

Just meditating on deceptive reality as divinity

Is mere wishful thinking, not a view;

Just as some heretical awareness mantras

Involve visualizing oneself differently during recitation.

5.2.1.2.2.1 Some say deceptive reality is more important;

They say you must integrate the two truths,

But then they heap praise on deceptive reality.

5.2.1.2.2.2 At the time of maintaining the view of coalescence,

They desert coalescence and grasp a blank emptiness.

Thus the toddler of practice cannot keep up

With the mother of good explanations.

5.2.2.1.1 Therefore, here in our early translation tradition,

Our Dharma terminology for the basis, path, and result

Does not fall into extremes or bias with respect to

Permanence, impermanence, the two truths, and so forth;

We maintain only the philosophical position of

coalescence.

5.2.2.1.2.1.1.1 If deceptive and ultimate reality are separated,

One cannot posit the basis, path, or result on the basis of

either.

5.2.2.1.2.1.1.2 Basis, path, and result are all

Without the distinction of abandoning one thing

or accepting another.

For if one abandons deceptive reality,

216 MIPHAM'S BEACON OF CERTAINTY

There is no ultimate; there is no deceptive

Reality apart from the ultimate.

5.2.2.1.2.1.i.3 Whatever appears is pervaded by emptiness,

And whatever is empty is pervaded by appearance.

If something appears, it cannot be non-empty,

And that emptiness cannot be established as not appearing.

5.2.2.1.2.1.2.1 Since both entities and nonentities should both

Be taken as bases for establishing emptiness,

All appearances are just designations,

And emptiness too is just a mental designation.

5.2.2.1.2.1.2.2 For the certainly of rational analysis,

These two are method and methodical result;

If there is one, it is impossible not to have the other,

As they are inseparable.

5.2.2.1.2.1.2.3 Therefore appearance and emptiness

Can each be conceived separately,

But in fact they are never different.

Therefore, they are called "coalescent,"

Since the confidence of seeing the nature of things

Does not fall to any extreme.

5.2.2.1.2.1.2.4 In the perspective of the wisdom of authentic analysis

Appearance and emptiness are considered to be

A single essence with different aspects, for

If one exists, the other exists, and if

One does not exist, the other does not exist.

5.2.2.1.2.2 Nonetheless, for beginners

They appear as negation and negandum;

At that time they are not combined as one.

When the nature of emptiness

Arises as appearance, one attains confidence.

Thus, everything is primordially empty,

And these appearances are empty,

Though empty, they appear; though apparent,

They are seen as empty—this is the birth of certainty.

5.2.2.1.3 This is the root of the profound paths

Of sutra, tantra, and pith instructions.

This is the meaning of cutting off misconceptions

Through study and reflection;

It is the unmistaken, authentic view.

5.2.2.2.1.1 By realizing that crucial point more and more profoundly,

Clinging to the characteristics of appearances of

Deceptive reality will gradually be abandoned.

The stages of the vehicles of the various tan trie classes

THE TRANSLATION OF THE BEACON OF CERTAINTY 217

Appear in that way.

5.2.2.2.1.2.1.1. Intellectual wishful thinking and

The view of certainty that finds confidence in the

Divine appearance of animate and inanimate phenomena

Cannot possibly be the same.

5.2.2.2.1.2.1.2. The determination that phenomena are truthless

By Madhyamika reasoning is a view.

But when a Brahmin recites a mantra over a sick person,

His imagining a lack of illness is not the view.

5.2.2.2.1.2.2.1. By realizing the abiding nature of ultimate reality,

One grows confident in the divine appearance of deceptive

reality.

Otherwise, if one dwells on the manner of deceptive

appearance,

How can divinity be established?

5.2.2.2.1.2.2.2. Aside from this deluded appearance of subject and object,

There is no such thing as samsara;

The divisions of the path that abandons it

Are not only made from the perspective of ultimate reality,

Because ultimate reality has a unitary character.

5.2.2.2.1.2.2.3. With respect to the mental ability gained

Through seeing and cultivating all phenomena

Of apparent deceptive reality, the subject (of qualities),674

With respect to ultimate reality, the action tantra,

Performance tantra, yoga tantra, and unexcelled yoga tantra

are taught.

5.2.2.2.1.3. Therefore, the tantric classes are not differentiated as higher

Or lower with respect to either of the two truths

individually.

According to one's attainment of confidence

In the coalescence of the two truths,

The practice of [each of the tantric classes naturally] follows.

5.2.2.2.2.1.1. Therefore, if one properly practices without mistakes

The peerless Vajra Vehicle,

The path that bestows liberation in a single life,

Then, just like the example of water seen

By several different types of sentient beings,

With respect to pure vision

It will be impossible for anyone not to see

Actual and potential phenomena as a manifested mandala.

5.2.2.2.2.1.2. If you don't know things that way,

Meditating on deities while holding

The nature of samsara to be impure

218 MIPHAM'S BEACON OF CERTAINTY

Is like spraying a vomit-filled vase with perfume.

Alas! That sort of meditation on the Vajra Vehicle of

equanimity

Is just like a drawing of a butter lamp.

5.2.2.2.2.2.1. The way things appear is impure,

But that is the system of delusion.

We say that authentically seeing the nature of things

Is the meaning of the undivided Vajrayana system.

5.2.2.2.2.2.2.1 Seeing the animate and inanimate universe

As lacking the nature of pure support and supported,

But meditating while imagining that they do—

This path evinces an obvious contradiction,

And is just a reflection of the Vajrayana path.

Coal cannot be whitened by washing;

5.2.2.2.2.2.2.2 Likewise, a fabricated meditation that thinks

"It is not, but it is"

Attaining some kind of result

Would be like the heretical sun worshippers (nyi ma pa)—

Who have no confidence in the emptiness of true

existence—

Abandoning emotional afflictions through meditating

On an emptiness devoid of appearance, etc.

5.2.2.2.3.1. What if the action, performance, and unexcelled tantric

classes

Did not have different levels of view?

5.2.2.2.3.2.1. If you have confidence in the view that realizes

The pure equality of actual and potential phenomena,

But fail to take advantage of the correct view,

Seeing yourself and the deity as superior and inferior

And discriminating things as pure and impure,

You will only harm yourself.

5.2.2.2.3.2.2. And, if you are still attached to what is accepted and abandoned

in the lower tantras

But practice the equality of what is accepted and abandoned

in the unexcelled tantras,

Such as "union and liberation," eating meat, drinking

alcohol, etc.,

This is known as the "reckless behavior of

misunderstanding"—

Isn't that despicable?

5.2.2.2.4.1. The view is defined according to one's certainty

In the vision of the nature of things;

According to one's confidence acquired by the view,

THE TRANSLATION OF THE BEACON OF CERTAINTY 219

One maintains the practice of meditation and conduct.

5.2.2.2.4.2.1. "Because the vehicles are differentiated

By different levels of view, they are not necessarily nine in

number"—

5.2.2.2.4.2.2. From the lowest of the Buddhist philosophical systems

Up to the ultimate vajra pinnacle of atiyoga,

There is a specific reason for positing

The enumeration of nine classes.

Of course there are many levels of vehicle,

But they are posited by necessity, as is the three-vehicle

system.675

5.2.2.3.1 Thus, according to the relative strength

Of inner gnosis, the animate and inanimate

Worlds are seen as pure or impure.

5.2.2.3.2 Therefore, the basis of inseparable appearance and emptiness

Is realized as the inseparability of the two realities;

As you cultivate the path in that way,

You will see the gnosis,

The coalescence of the two buddha bodies.

[7/11/22, 1:26:14 AM] John Tan: Is this true in ur experience?

[7/11/22, 1:26:40 AM] John Tan: If yes y and is no y?

[7/11/22, 1:55:49 AM] Soh Wei Yu: lol so different

[7/11/22, 1:56:08 AM] Soh Wei Yu: anatta and twofold emptiness is direct insight into emptiness of inherent existence and duality simultaneously

[7/11/22, 1:56:26 AM] Soh Wei Yu: also why objectless awareness

[7/11/22, 1:56:30 AM] Soh Wei Yu: sounds like those awareness practice

[7/11/22, 1:56:36 AM] Soh Wei Yu: and very different from mahamudra also

[7/11/22, 1:56:59 AM] John Tan: Lol👍 so what r the issues?  Y is mipham saying that?

[7/11/22, 1:57:00 AM] Soh Wei Yu: "At that point, is the observer—awareness—other than the

observed—stillness and movement—or is it actually that stillness and

movement itself? By investigating with the gaze of your own awareness,

you come to understand that that which is investigating itself is also

no other than stillness and movement. Once this happens you will

experience lucid emptiness as the naturally luminous self-knowing

awareness. Ultimately, whether we say nature and radiance, undesirable

and antidote, observer and observed, mindfulness and thoughts, stillness

and movement, etc., you should know that the terms of each pair are no

different from one another; by receiving the blessing of the guru,

properly ascertain that they are inseparable. Ultimately, to arrive at

the expanse free of observer and observed is the realization

of the true meaning and the culmination of all analyses. This is called

“the view transcending concepts,” which is free of conceptualization,

or “the vajra mind view.”

"Fruition vipashyana is the correct realization of the final conviction of the nonduality of observer and observed."

Khamtrul Rinpoche III. The Royal Seal of Mahamudra: Volume One: A

Guidebook for the Realization of Coemergence: 1 (p. 242). Shambhala.

[7/11/22, 1:57:49 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I think he is distinguishing the nominal ultimate and non nominal ultimate.. forgot the term

[7/11/22, 1:59:54 AM] John Tan: He is but y he can't get that "absence" of inherent existence can also dissolve "duality"?

[7/11/22, 2:00:25 AM] John Tan: In fact much easier.

[7/11/22, 11:13:02 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Im not sure why.. why do you think?

[7/11/22, 11:14:32 AM] John Tan: Use ur experience to see through and tell me.

[7/11/22, 11:15:22 AM] John Tan: How is it diff from ATR approach?

‎[7/11/22, 3:01:18 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted

[7/11/22, 3:01:37 PM] Soh Wei Yu: To me this part is emphasizing reverting to the I AM to have initial realization of nondual presence

[7/11/22, 3:14:39 PM] John Tan: Not exactly

[7/11/22, 10:52:30 PM] Soh Wei Yu: mipham sees inherent existence as negated through analytical reasoning path

[7/11/22, 10:52:47 PM] Soh Wei Yu: whereas AtR begins with stanzas, so inherent existence is seen through in direct path like mahamudra:

[7/11/22, 10:53:31 PM] Soh Wei Yu: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/08/thrangu-rinpoche-on-nature-of-mind.html

Thrangu Rinpoche:

In the Vajrayana there is the direct path to examining mind. In everyday life we are habituated to thinking, "I have a mind and I perceive these things." Ordinarily, we do not directly look at the mind and therefore do not see the mind. This is very strange because we see things and we know that we are seeing visual phenomena. But who is seeing? We can look directly at the mind and find that there is no one seeing; there is no seer, and yet we are seeing phenomena. The same is true for the mental consciousness. We think various thoughts, but where is that thinking taking place? Who or what is thinking? However, when we look directly at the mind, we discover that there is nobody there; there is no thinker and yet thinking is going on. This approach of directly looking in a state of meditation isn't one of reasoning, but of directly looking at the mind to see what is there.

Source: Shentong and Rangtong

[7/11/22, 10:53:57 PM] Soh Wei Yu: to me analytical path alone wont have the sort of sudden awakening like anatta

[7/11/22, 10:54:32 PM] Soh Wei Yu: maybe like what you said "Actually anatta is a good direct method of pointing, analysis can later be used to support this direct experiential insight.  Not easy for the path of analysis to trigger such insight.  It will have to have a sudden leap or break-through much like koan"

[7/11/22, 10:55:09 PM] Soh Wei Yu: without that sudden leap of breakthrough, the understanding of emptiness is still inferential and wont be able to breakthrough duality in a direct realization of the nature of consciousness

[8/11/22, 1:21:33 AM] John Tan: Very good.  U must see the difference.  The method of pointing is the issue, not the view.

[7:58 pm, 25/04/2022] John Tan: Imo it is different insight, different emphasis and and different praxis, but result is the same. Both will clear certain obscurations that r not easy to c.